Tomorrow, Today - The future of Porn & Onlyfans

Episode Date: February 13, 2023

We've all snuck a look at porn as a young adult, and no one's browser is innocent; porn is as human as breathing and drinking water. It's existed in a number of forms and across time. Today, however, porn exists in increasing access and with new professionalism. We're joined by Vibe Ryder to discuss sex work, the future of sex work in porn, and the new challenges porn in the digital streaming era faces, even with the growth of platforms such as Onlyfans. Check out Vibe's work on Instagram: @Vibe.Ryder Check out her website: http://viberyder.com/ You can support this show by subscribing to our patreon at www.patreon.com/poorprolesalmanac Give us a review on Itunes & Spotify!

Welcome back to tomorrow today, the podcast for your future plans and past fears or something. Nash, how are you today? I'm a past fear today. You're a past fear? I'm a present fear. I don't know what that means, but I, it feels very, yeah, it feels very accurate. Today we're talking about one of your favorite subjects on the earth. Yes?

Yes. We are? Yes. Oh, my God, what is it? Porn. Oh. I got a question for you. Oh.

Does Debbie do Dallas? I don't have any idea of that. that means. Oh my God. All right. So we are talking today about the past, present, and future of the porn industry. Okay. So let me ask you, when is the first time you saw a naked human being that wasn't a family member? Assuming you was on the internet or a magazine or something. Okay. I actually, I don't know, I don't think it was the first time, but I do have a story about this. It's not really a story so much as it is a sentence. But when I was in... The best stories. When I was in middle school, I remember the first time we could Google things.

It wasn't Google then, right? It was like ass Jeeves or some shit. And I remember going to find information about Blink 182. Oh, boy. And I discovered to my child's amusement and horror, because I think I was young enough, if you Google Blink 182 or back then if you did without the dash, then an image came up of a dude fucking his girlfriend. Like it was like the third image in the search.

And I just remember being like, why would this come up for Blink 182, first of all? Like, it was not a member of the band. I checked. And I was also just like... You weren't looking at it for very long, obviously. Yeah, no. But I also remember, like, feeling like once I'd realized that it was there, that you could just find naked pictures of people. Like, every once in a while, I would Google Blank 1A2, but deliberately forget the little dash, you know?

I was like, ooh, my parents aren't going to catch this one, right? I'm not looking like titties.com, you know? It was just like my little like, there's some naked people. Yeah. So I have two stories then. So my first is similar to yours. Like 1-82, right? No, no.

Being in school, having to do research in the computer lab. And we're all supposed to go to whitehouse.gov. I went to whitehouse.com. And it was a totally different Abraham Lincoln. I will tell you that. The Lincoln logs were a lot different back then. So, so. I love the idea that it took you maybe like a couple minutes to notice it wasn't the same screen as your classmates.

You were like, wow, the government's into some really weird things. I guess this is adult, this is what the adults do on the internet? I mean, it turned out yes, but also, we were doing a different lesson plan that week. Okay, yeah, for sure. So, so yeah, I had a similar experience. This is back, you know, in the 90s and the internet was still like this wild west that adults didn't really either fully understand. stand. Yeah.

Like we, I think today we have like a very different relationship with the internet, especially generationally. So that was my first experience to online porn, right? Was the White House? It was Joe Biden. It colored your whole experience with the government and the U.S. government relations, which is my poor proles almanac is the thing.

Exactly. Your early distrust of the government. It was like they've been holding out on four score and seven inches ago. It was so much better. I was logs. I could have even said hogs and made it funny. Yes, four scored and seven hogs ago. Lady Mary Todd.

You can four score with me. Do you remember that commercial? It was a fake. It was one of those black sheep or whatever the hell it was. You remember back in the day. Oh, yes, I do. You can forescore with me as like some girl dressed up like a New Jersey, Lincoln. I believe that it exists, but I don't remember.

that one. So, so that was my first internet experience. And like, I think the really interesting thing about the internet is like, you're looking at a computer screen. It's not like a phone where it's like, oh, like this thing popped up. Like your screen is like just blasting it in your face, right? When I was younger, my uncle was moving out of my grandparents house and he was like emptying everything out of his room. Obviously there was a bunch of playboys like stacked under his bed. It's like, that was the first time I was like, oh, like, I might have been like, oh, I guess I was probably about the same age. probably like six, six, seven. How about you?

Oh, I was, I was late bloomer. I was probably like 13. Well, actually, I must have been seven or eight because, like, I must have been second grade, maybe third grade. I'd say second. There's two facets to this. So I think compared to like our parents, well, maybe not you, but I was like younger than my parents or your parents probably when they first saw like a naked chick.

Now, historically, though, I don't think that's probably the case. Like I think the last couple generations have been historically kind of an anomaly in that sense, right? Where sexuality has kind of gone through this ebb and flow over the last couple hundred years since basically the Victorian era. You know, you could say that we're kind of coming to terms with the way sex had been historically treated, right? Yeah. In this process of like porn, we've seen this industry-wide change, right? From the Debbie does Dallas, which I'd mention to you, which you don't know what that is. No, I do not.

It was like the groundbreaking porn of the time. It's like the one everyone has heard of. Except for me. Except for you who didn't look at porn until she was a teenager. I don't know that I've ever watched like actual conventional porn, to be honest. What is conventional porn? I don't know. I feel like I never.

Like popping in the DVD of like, you know. Debbie does Dallas. Debbie does Dallas. Yeah, but I mean, I think I think that's not to derail you too much for your thought process. But I do like I do think like I never really watched like I never watched like a like a, like a. like a flick I found. I just said flick. Ironically.

You know, like, I never watched like a VA. I wonder if she's getting uncomfortable talking about this. I'm just going to laugh and like walk away from that sentence. Yeah. So there's a lot to unpack about that, not just like you personally, but I think there's like this very gendered part of it too. Not that, you know, women or, you know, nonmen don't watch porn. But I think it's historically not existed for their enjoyment.

Right. And obviously there's always like marginal subcultures and things like that. But like the mainstream stuff that was out there that was accessible, especially again, pre-internet. The misogyny of the 90s was truly something else. It's really wild to think back how much things have changed since we were kids, which I guess means we're getting old. But yes. Anyways, I digress. The point is that like the way we relate to porn because of the way it's evolved in the last 25 years since the advent of the internet and like the realization of like we can just put porn on the internet.

And like, we can also even trick people into finding it by getting Whitehouse.com versus Whitehouse. I wonder if that website's still there. I'm, like, afraid to check because, like, that, like, deep-seated fear from when I was a little kid from, like, when it popped up. I'm like, I'm going to get expelled from school. I looked at porn on the computer. Yeah. And, like, obviously, the IT department didn't know what the fuck they were doing back then. They were like, yeah, Whitehouse.com is a valid site.

Sounds legit. Yep. Yep. So, like, it's really interesting. curious, but I don't want to look. I'm an adult. I can look at porn. Like, no one is going to come to my house. No one is going to yell at me, but I'm still like, can't check that.

Even though it was like 30 years ago, don't worry about it. You can't find out if it's still there out of curiosity. I mean, I will be Googling Blink 1282 without the dash very, very quickly after this conversation. We'll include that in the show notes or maybe when we drop the episode. We'll make sure everyone knows whether or not that's still a thing. So

my point is, though, with all of this, is porn has changed very rapidly. and even the way we consume it has changed very rapidly. And that's really what this conversation is about. We're joined by Vibe, who is a sex worker, and she talks about her work in the industry, how she's seen it evolve, and what the future looks like. So if you're listening to this, you are 100% aware of OnlyFans, right? I would hope. Yeah.

So OnlyFans is like the thing people use now or like Porn Hub. So Pornhub is the other like major way we consume porn as like a system. site. And we talk about the negative effects of that on the industry. What only fans offers and also the limitations and the risks that come with it because it's not as simple as just being like, you know, the, and I think I make this joke in in the episode or make this commentary. What quip, I guess is the right word. Back during Christmas, everyone would say like, don't pay for porn, pay to see or don't pay for random people's butts. Go look at your friend's butthole or something like that. Wow. You didn't see those memes? No. Okay. So like the whole idea was like support your

local sex worker, right? Or support your friends who are doing these things to, you know, to earn a paycheck. At first, it's kind of like a farce, right? Like people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I support that, but not many people are actually doing it. But like, it does speak to a change in our understanding of what sex work is, uh, normalizing sex work and understanding that like, like, I think the problem with a lot of people, and this is not a criticism. Like, I fall into the same category as like, you can say, I support sex workers, but would you be weirded out if like your friends, family, or if any of those people were sex workers, like, would it bother you if your kids became a sex worker? And if you can say support sex workers and then say that bothers

you, then, like, how much support are you really giving? And, like, it's an interesting subject. Because we all watch porn, but we don't ever really, like, openly talk about it. And, like, it doesn't mean you have to be like, this is my kink or anything. But, like, the reality that, like, every single person you know probably rubs one out once in a while. And now, Nash is gagging on the floor, which speaks to the comfort level of the sex. Go. I'm incredibly childish when it comes to sex and talking about sex and porn. I was actually on a porn podcast and managed to not say anything about the porn itself at all. I was talking about the plot, which is what people watch porn for. I mean, in my defense, it is actually what I watched porn

for if you haven't seen pirates, I would recommend it. Is it but pirates of the Caribbean? Is that what It's called. No, no. It's, I believe it's just called Pirates. And then there's Pirates to Stagnetti's Revenge, which is the movie that I watched. So go check that out and chat with Nash about it. She'll be really excited to tell you. I love talking about it on the street, just like wherever you find me.

The depth of that character development. The character development is definitely the depth. It was a long depth. It was a Johnny depth. Oh, my God. I need you to quit. Nope. Here all day.

Oh, shit. Okay. What we end up talking about is like this interesting relationship building that now exists in the porn industry. In the sense, like, you subscribe to and only fans if you want to like shop local, so to speak. That comes with it a lot more than just like watch, you know, Jennifer Fox or, you know, whatever, like with three Xs, like some porn star. Like there's a whole lot that goes into that relationship that's totally different than traditional porn. and you know what are the consequences of that like both good and bad right so like there's this great part about it where it's like this is a real person i accept them for their imperfections

or the you know the quality imperfection all these things that maybe we wouldn't have done with like you know mass produced porn where it's like her tits are like triple fs you know or whatever and her waist is super tiny and she's gotten tons of plastic surgery if that's what you're into great like if that's what makes you as a you know however you identify like feel better about yourself by looking like that great but like that expectation is very complicated because like you're it's not realistic for 99.9% of people right the intimacy that exists in the only fans market is very different than the way we understand like relationships with porn outside of it and I think even it helps in you know when you're talking about not like commercially produced pornography I think

that there is also a realism that you get from from OnlyFans and from more local sources of porn that set you up for a better understanding of pleasure and intimacy that you wouldn't get from like the 90s like slapping women for whatever reason which was a big part of porn in the 90s in the early odds just like we're just mean

do I have a surprise for you so I don't know what that means so what that means is that like one of the things we'll talk about a bit is how accessing like this diversity of porn that exists today also means like the fantasy gets fulfilled in some cases which means like newer more extreme fantasies become more prevalent now you've got models competing or sex workers competing against one another for having the most unique content which comes with a whole host of issues in terms of like what content looks like what people should be willing to expect and like it you know I think the point is that like we're at a point

with porn that the industry is changing very rapidly and it hasn't kind of figured out how to regulate itself yet like if you look at like craft beer 10 years ago like it was exploding like everyone was making money doing it at first right and this is sounding like a really weird metaphor I mean it is so I mean not exploding yes not that part so like everyone was making money and they're all kind of just doing the same thing and then it became like you hit the saturation point and then there's just need to differentiate. And a lot of people struggled and a lot of people kind of went off the deep end trying to like stand out without like quality necessarily being the driving force and

mass production and all these other issues that like, you know, water down quality or like having to scale up to be profitable and all these different things. And I think we're starting to see that kind of play out in the only fan space where you've got like a ton of people, you know, trying to do the same thing. And now it's like, how do I differentiate? and a lot of times that means like getting to more, I'll use the term, riskier types of, like, I'm not really sure what the right word is, but like stuff that's like more marginalized in like sexual kink or whatever.

You know, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out in the next 10, 20, 30 years and how our relationship changes with porn and even like normalizing of porn. You know, like I think about when we were kids, like if your parents call you with porn, it was like the worst thing in the world. but like we just discussed literally everyone does it and everyone historically has done it and kids have like teenagers preteens have like there's a lot we could unpack about the fact that like

we're talking about like 16 year olds can't look at porn 100 years ago 16 year olds had kids like never mind looking at porn they were doing the porn you know what I mean like they were doing the porn that's right 17th century America your Puritan grandchildren were fucking yeah So, like, there's a lot that we can say about porn and our relationship to it and our discomfort, I think, as a generation because our parents were really bad at talking about sex. Surprise. Like many things, they failed to hit the lowest bar.

They were like, oh, the bar is on the floor? This house should have a basement. And basements were invented. Yay. Not for storing food, but just for buying more shits. Yes. There's a lot to take away from this conversation. It's really interesting.

I recommend everyone go check out her work. and especially if you're into tattooed women. Support your local economy. Support your local economy. And honestly, like, go listen to what some sex workers have to say. Because I think that's the thing that really should be taken away from it, that we need to have more honest conversations. We have to not just talk about, like, supporting sex workers

or even, like, supporting and only fans, but, like, actually recognizing them as people that don't need, like, our pity, but rather, like, just us listening to them. it'll come out on the other side making us all a lot better people. Right. Like sex workers aren't just workers. They're also humans. Yeah. They're your friends, your family, your whatever. Not

friends, your enemies. I mean, frenemies. That's also a choice. That could be a third option. The third way. The Bill Clinton way is the frenemy. I guess, okay, so I have one quick question before we sign off and get it to the actual interview. In college. This is going to be very specific to me,

like what I was doing on a certain date. I don't know. with a magazine or something. I don't know. Maybe. Well, definitely not a magazine. Like, in college, when the internet was becoming a thing, I know I'm dating myself significantly here, but when Google really started going off the chain to use a...

Yeah, don't use that. You know what I mean? I remember my friends and I being like, is there a limit at all to the type of porn that exists? And, you know, it was one of those things where everyone was like trying to not actively watch it because it was awkward, but like trying to just Google how far we could go into a niche to see where it stopped. And I do remember coming across clown porn and teradactal porn. So I guess what my question is... And smurf porn. Yes, that's right. I've told the story

before many times. So I guess my question is, is only fans also filling those niches? Or is this an aughts thing? So I think... You personally, I want to know what your only fan's experience has been. My only fan's experience has been Zip, but... Not even to look at the stray taradactyl, huh? No.

I was never into dinosaurs, so, so, you know, maybe if there was, like, some sheep, maybe, it was a joke. Don't look at me like that.

I was like, okay, this is insalvable. No, so, yeah, I think what has happened is instead, and I think this is something

we've seen play out with, like, the millennial economy now that we're, like, adults and kind of the guiding, sort of, guiding force and like how the economy is structured like you know movies are now catered towards

our generation we see that with like the marvel series and all this other stuff where a lot of it goes into like cosplay uh cosplaying characters from when we were children because our parents were terrible parents that we never really got to have our a normal childhood like if you want to watch a better phelma than Mindy Kaling's yeah you're not you're not watching Mindy Kaling on there I mean if you want to watch like POV point of view like watch yourself get fucked by TV, then like, yes, that that is your option. That's what's happening. And yeah, so we've rambled on enough about this. Let's go listen to Vibe talk about it and you guys enjoy the conversation. Vibe, thanks so much for joining us. For our audience that isn't familiar with you, can you please

introduce yourself? Hi. My name's Vibe. I describe myself as an alternative model and an independent adult content creator. Before I had reached out to you about this project or this episode that was interested in doing. I know we've talked a lot in the past. And even before we were recording, we were talking about, like, the really interesting thing about porn is it's like the thing every single person listening to this has looked at, but nobody will ever, like, openly talk about it, right? Like, we all know, it's like walking down the street and knowing everybody's, like, had sex, you know, or something like that. Like, it's something we all do, but nobody, like, wants to acknowledge or like admit like yes I do this thing and obviously if I'm searching that

means I'm looking for a specific thing you know that that even goes back to this like whole world of porn that exists around us that is historically speaking very different than what it has looked like even in the recentish past the first thing I want to talk about is that the porn industry is kind of this really interesting like marker for our economy in a lot of ways right It's this thing that predicts the changes in how things are utilized. And we saw that with like the internet. The porn industry was on the internet and understanding how to use it way before anyone else really figured out what to do with it. And now the one that seems to be popping up now is like only fans, right?

It's this thing that exists and can be really good or bad. It's something where we can take the power away from like a handful of companies that own the, the strings to getting access to making money, you know, creating content, whatever it might be. But also like there, it comes with a lot of baggage, right? So actually, before I ramble on any further, because this is supposed to be your interview, not me talking. Let's talk about only fans. Tell me what you, your thoughts on only fans.

Before I talk about, you know, only fans or other types of direct to consumer porn websites, I do want to talk a little bit about, you know, free porn because people have been making porn basically since we were able to. You know, I've seen Victorian photos of sexual activities. You know, I can't imagine sitting still for one of those. But yeah, and porn has always been available. It's always been for sale. You know, we think about, I know I snuck my dad's Playboy magazines when I was younger. You can think about, you know, porn theaters or DVDs, VH, is basically, like you said, every technology, porn has used it. And then about 15 years ago, there was a major shift on the internet from paid sites to porn to websites. And that, I guess you

could call it shame that you mentioned with the whole, you know, everyone watches porn, but no one really wants to admit it. That was one of the things that led to free porn. Because, of course, who wants to pay for something when they can get it for free? And then, you know, putting your credit card into a website, you know, calling up a phone number and putting your credit card into a sex talk line is another way of admitting that you watch porn and the free porn just kind of adds a little anonymity to that. So I think Porn Hub was invented in like the late 2000s as sort of a YouTube for porn. And that had just so many impacts on the porn market today and how porn is made and how

porn is consumed, especially now that we all have basically computers in our pockets. You know, we can watch porn whenever, wherever we want to. Yeah. So that that's sort of led to a shift in, I'm trying not to ramble too much, but that's sort of led to a shift in what types of porn is created and how the porn is created. Since a lot of this content would be uploaded illegally, even if it could be found and taken down by the studio owners with copyright notices, it's basically going up again anyway. It's sort of like music videos on YouTube or pirated copies of a DVD. You can take down one, but another one's just going to pop right up.

And unfortunately, studio owners and producers just sort of accepted this, you know, and ways that they started to get around this was focusing on a quantity model over quality and just trying to pump out as much porn as possible. And then also with, you know, now that everyone has a cell phone in their pocket, everyone also has a camera and a microphone. And they can make their own content. and now with sites like Pornhub, you can distribute your own content. So it basically can turn anyone who wants to be one into a porn producer. And that's where sites like OnlyFans came up. And OnlyFans definitely wasn't the first, but it's probably the most infamous that every, you know, who hasn't heard of OnlyFans?

It's raised an interesting dynamic when it comes to porn consumption, right? Historically speaking, porn has existed more as like a voyeuristic. thing. And I'm talking like pre like photography, right? And also, you know, you think about like the Victorian era was really when things like porn and eroticism were really stigmatized. So before that, it was much different. It was much more understanding that like people had urges and they, you know, those manifested in a number of different ways. Today we're kind of coming full circle in some weird way of like reengaging with our human sexuality. Seeing this play out in the, online arena of the, you know, as a podcaster who has a Patreon, like we rely on people

being interested in the work we're doing to want to contribute, right? The same thing plays out with only fans and that comes with like a whole bunch of other loaded issues because you're putting yourself out vulnerably. That comes with the reality of like, you know your porn star, so to speak, very intimately, right? You know the person performing for you very intimately. they're very often, you know, interspersed between images or videos, including written content. So it's not like some abstract, you know, Jennifer Fox with three Xs, you know what I mean? Like something that's like on the back of a DVD. They're like, sure, I don't care what she looks like.

You're picking and choosing. This comes with a whole bunch of, for better or worse, you could say, like intimacies, right? Oh, absolutely. And, you know, in the 70s, 80s and 90s, porn stars would have PO boxes. And as a fan, you could write letters, you know, to your favorite porn star. But there's no guarantee that she's even looking at it, let alone going to reply back to you. Especially this technology has just enabled the back and forth communication. You know, it's not just the content creator pushing that content directly onto the consumer.

They can talk back. Yeah. So there's not just the one way street of the content creator pushing the content onto the consumer. They can talk back. and the content creator can get feedback from their fans and create sort of a relationship and use that to their advantage. You know, when I first started, one of the pieces of advice that I always remember is someone told me that, you know, there's always going to be someone doing something dirtier than you for less money. But what people are paying for is access to you. You know, so the advice was just to foster that connection, you know, because everyone wants to feel special.

Yeah. You know, obviously there's some very serious downpins. sides to this model in the sense of like if you're creating this intimacy with someone like it is still transactional but you know there's the risk that for some people becomes more than transactional and obviously those feelings are not going to be at least most times not going to be reciprocated right as a as a performer you're providing this service that's now not just physical or uh visual but um you know emotional as well and if you don't reciprocate that that can come with obvious you know negative consequences. And that that's really dangerous in the era of the internet, right?

Oh, yeah. You know, things like stalking can happen. You can get things leaked. Revenge porn happens. There was someone who there was a man who spent, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars on, I think, a Russian cam model. And I, his family cut him off. And I think he ended up killing his entire family, you know, because he didn't have any more money. He needed more money to give to this cam. He, in his mind, they had a special connection. Yeah, and that's, you know, it's sat on his side and it's scary for the performer. There's this power dynamic that as a creator, you would think being the one getting paid, that you would be the one, you know, on the power end of the dynamic, right?

But in reality, it's not because you are totally subservient to the will of the person consuming that they don't go in that direction or that, they continue to contribute and you're kind of walking this tightroop and ultimately what's going to happen is people eventually turn off for whatever reason either you know you're a passing fad for them or you know even like as a podcast people listen for whatever reason it's no longer applicable to what or they just get tired of the same thing so they move on to something else so that means you always have to create a new funnel of people to come into the to the marketplace so to speak right and that's something we see play out and a lot of things like the serial serialization

of porn. It's this really big, like, kind of emotional game of tug and war, where, and for folks that aren't familiar with this term serialization, it's something that's happened in art for a long time, whether it's writers putting content in for, like Charles Dickens, like daily writing to keep people tuning in, keeping a paycheck coming in, or in the case of porn as it's utilized today, and not just porn, but a lot of industries that are social media driven, this idea of, like, if a thousand people, like this picture or this video or subscribe or whatever it is I'll make a special blah blah blah video or picture you know whatever it might be and it creates this really interesting like game of like vested stakeholders it can be good in the sense of driving traffic but like there's some problems

with that right oh absolutely it it kind of reminds me of what iTunes did to the music industry you know in the 90s or early 2000s, you would hear maybe one single and then go to the store and buy the whole album on a CD. But when iTunes came out and you could buy individual songs, you know, it was more of an incentive to make every single song good, you know, versus just having a few bangers on an album and knowing that it's still going to sell just fine. So when people can buy things individually, there's more pressure to make everything good and make, the most of everything. Because as a performer who's marketing directly to consumers, you know, there's a few ways you can make more money by getting more fans and by selling more pieces of content. You know, why would you sell an eight minute video for $15 when you could sell two halves of it

for $10 each? So ultimately what you're really talking about is how do you drive traffic and either you can get quantity or quality, right? You can get those repeat customers through like an only fans or you can get one-off purchases, right, where people are buying a specific video or content. Now, this isn't much different than like any other industry that we're seeing right now, right? You've got Netflix, you've got Hulu, Disney Plus, you know, you've got all these different players trying to get into the same idea where these things were supposed to in many ways free us from conglomerates like Comcast or whatever it might be. You know, you name your industry that you want to pick on.

But in reality, now it's like they've all figured out how to monetize and take advantage of the same system, right? And now, you know, it'll be really interesting to kind of see how this is going to play out in the porn industry, right? There's a lot of different directions this could be. I'm wondering it's somebody that works in this area. How do you see all this play out? Like, is this like performer model where you are selling yourself and not relying on these other players to sell your content? Is that the future or is this like a weird growing pain? Like, how do we how do we see this play out? I definitely see this as being the future because, as free porn, like what's available on Porn Hub or X Hamster, that's not going away.

And I don't see, I don't see consumers spending $40 on a DVD set, on a porn DVD set. I'm sure there are still people who do, but the bulk of us are not going to do that. You know, we're going to browse Pornhub and we're going to see a maybe a three-minute clip that, for example, this is something that I do. I will put a three-minute clip onto Porn Hub, you know, with a big watermark of where you can buy the full video. And I definitely think that the future is in the hands of the individuals and the amateur-level producers. That's really, I think, empowering for a lot of people. But, like, also, like, what's going to happen to the Pirates of the Caribbean porn series?

Like, is it over then? Like, you know what I mean? Like, is the era of, like, the fake movie, the movie spoof porn? Is that over? Because that's like, in college, yeah, like in college, it's like everyone gets together and gets, you know, high and some popcorn and watches some spoof porn. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who did that.

I would host pizza and porn nights while I was in college. Yeah, like, I mean, these poor kids, they don't know what they're missing out on. I have seen modern, much smaller scale spoof porn. If you want to call it that, I actually just watched an adventure time one that was released a few years ago, you know, but it's not. the three-hour cinematic masterpiece that is the Da Vinci Load, you know. Oh, man. I have not heard of the Da Vinci Load, and now I'm so sad that I haven't. I don't know. It's really interesting to see how this is all played out with the OnlyFans era.

You know, I remember like last Christmas, like watching it make its way across the internet, like the Stop Looking at Strangers, look at your friend's butthole instead. And it was like about like supporting local businesses, but meaning like OnlyFans. And it was just like part of it. it was obviously like this like component of like trying to get a shock factor out of the person viewing it but also like in some ways it is like like i think it's still be weird to to subscribe to and only fans of somebody that i knew and i think it would be weird to be a producer and having somebody that you know subscribe to you even if it's like yes i just want to support you um like we haven't gotten past that yet right but i don't know i i think we're we're getting there yeah and i have a few

You know, I have had and have subscribers that I know in real life. Some of them were just acquaintances, you know, and found the link on my Instagram maybe. And that definitely puts them in like the acquaintance fan box. I have had friends, you know, support me. And I think me and my friends are just open enough that it's not weird. And a lot of my friends who do that, you know, where they're following just for the support, they're also in the same industry, you know, so they were more peers than having a performer fan relationship. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Now, I do want to ask you about your Instagram a little bit. So,

like, now that you are, you're a one-man shop, so to speak, right? You do all the marketing. You do everything. How does that change your, like, relationship with, like, the way your content is delivered, the way your content is shared, the responsibility you feel to do those things? things. And I guess like, I don't know if this matters at all, but maybe like the standards that you hold how people are consuming it or like, I don't know if how is the right word, but like the way that people engage with it, I guess is probably the best way to say. You know, there's a certain, there's a different relationship with the content when you are also responsible for the marketing and like how people are getting access to it.

Oh, yeah. So my, my Instagram page is. the face of my brand, if you want to call it that. And it definitely changes the way you view social media. You know, the average person might get off work and scroll through Instagram for 30 or 40 minutes, you know, before eating dinner, before bed. But when you do something like this, it turns every social media application into an extension of work. You know, yes, I will scroll memes on Instagram, but I am also doing a lot of, you know, quote, working when I'm scrolling Instagram. I'm either like looking at what other people are doing. I'm making my own posts. There's always that voice in the back of your head that says you need to make sure you post today. You need to make

sure your engagement is good. Am I reaching the right people that I want to reach? What types of people are interacting with this? And then there is, like you said, making sure that you want to present. making sure that you're presenting the face that you want to present, you know, like my, let's say my brand image is sexy. And I'm trying to appeal to, you know, straight men for the most part, or basically anyone who would like to look at an attractive femme. You know, and so I keep my close friends feed for any kind of just very silly meme, you know, or anything that's very emotional to me. I kind of keep that separate. It's my same account, but it's just a separate side of me, you know, so that I can keep that sexy polished facade, you know, for lack of a better word.

I think what's interesting is when I was getting ready, you know, when I started thinking about doing this episode and I was trying to think about, you know, porn has evolved so quickly and it's changed so much. And like you said, now you've got these custom content creators. I was wondering about like the psychology that was going on behind. it because like thinking abstractly I think about like all right we all have these fantasies not necessarily sexual right but like we all have fantasies of like what we want in life right and with that comes this like part of that fantasy or part of the enjoyment of that fantasy is never having to get it right like if you had like

you know the whole like thing that everyone says about like oh you win the lottery and you're still not happy because money can't make you happy you know those things and it's like yeah because the fantasy of being able to do these things is a lot better than actually doing them. And I'm really interested, you know, with the development of like custom porn as like something that's accessible for like the average person. Like, you know, obviously custom porn has always existed for like the super rich. But for like the average guy who, you know, can spend a couple hundred bucks on porn or whatever might be, that was never an option. But now it is. And in these really niche markets, you know, you've got cosplay and all this other stuff going on, which I guess,

This isn't as niche as I think it is, but I'm an old man. So to me, it's niche. There's a lot of stuff going on around that. And, like, I'm really interested if this is something you see, like, where people are finding the thing that they'd always wanted to see. And then they just, like, what happens after that? Like, do they just, like, disappear? Or is that, like, it's just, it's an interesting, like, weird opportunity to access the thing that you would always want. Yeah.

And I think, well, I know that custom porn. has had a huge impact on the market and it's mostly it's mostly come from just the availability of free porn and you know how that flooded the market with just available porn so then there are two sides to that you know the the studios and the producers are more willing to take on custom jobs whereas because they know that if they can get a few thousand dollars for a video from one person It's still better than trying to sell a video that's going to be available for free online anyway. And like you said, in the beginning, it really was just something for people who had 10 grand to spend, you know, on their own porno or even, you know, $1,000. But today you can get, you know, custom porn depending on what you're looking for, what kind of performer you're hiring.

You can get some custom photos taken for around $100. And I'm not a psychologist, but I don't think. think that any amount of custom porn would ever be enough. You know, I think if you look at the available porn on the market, it's only gotten more extreme, more, you know, either rougher or grosser, you know, depending on what, you know, you think about kinks and stuff like that. I think porn has just gotten a lot more extreme as the availability of porn has gone up, you know, because people are always looking to push the envelope on both sides. You know, as a consumer, you might get off to something that's, you know, 5%.

And you think like, oh, this is it. This is what I like. And then three months later, it's not doing it for you anymore. It's like a drug. You get addicted and you need more, you know, more extreme high. And then as a performer, you want to be pushing the envelope because you want to stand out from everybody else. And I did read somewhere. I forget where I read it.

it needs to be verified, but I read that, you know, people today are watching more porn and having less sex. Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah, they're getting off to this extreme porn that's available. And the sex that they're having just can't compare. Yeah. And that there's higher rates of like ED for men and all these other issues that, you know, obviously the intimacy or the value of the intimacy more important, right? Or less important rather than because they have. have this, you know, more and more extreme porn.

I'm really torn, and I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm really wondering whether or not like getting this kind of, well, they're not really getting validation, which is the problem, but I'm wondering about like what our relationship with porn is going to be, you know, 10, 15, 20 years from now with, you know, these new dynamics, whether it's the intimacy with the performer, the further extremism and more mainstream porn. Like, it's obviously, it feels like it's going in opposite direction. right like where you have these like very obviously bad things happening but like in the totally other part of the industry some things that might be really good where it's like we're starting

to value performers much more as human than we have in the past oh yeah there's definitely a normalization of porn as as a side hustle as a career path you know because who who doesn't know you know who hasn't heard of only fans and i'm sure most people know at least one person in their life who has one. Or maybe they don't know them personally, but it's, oh, this model that I've been following for years, the swimsuit model, now she has an only fans too. I want to just say, you know, it's something that people do. And that's having an only fans isn't saying that you're getting naked on it per se. You know, some people have an only fans and sell bikini picks on it the whole time. It's really what aspect of yourself that you can market and

monetize to people. No. It's like the, a new version of Patreon, you know, essentially. It's like X-rated Patreon and like, you know, and then we haven't even talked about and I think this is also worth kind of exploring a little bit is like the other,

the like peripheral industries that have come off of porn. That I think again, weren't accessible with that like mainstream like you buy DVD or VHS at the store, you know, buying used clothes and like all these other like weird facets that have kind of sprung off of it that have offered new resources for performers to like make a living and I'm kind of curious about your thoughts like because that I could see why that would be like really creepy but also like I also can fully understand why someone would want to sell a pair of socks for like 20 bucks yeah and I mean from the performers perspective if you can

find a buyer for you know use socks you use panties your bed sheets your lingerie you know anything that you can monetize and that it comes back to the whole quantity over quality thing. It's just anything that you can monetize, people are trying to do it. People are trying to do it. People have tried to do it. One of the things that I think about a lot is how COVID also impacted the porn industry. Because if you think about it, only fans boomed, at least in my area, around the start of the pandemic. You know, a lot of people were trying to make money from home, strippers who couldn't go to their clubs. We're trying to make any kind of money that they could. And like everything, you know, we're doing our jobs via Zoom. We're consuming our sex industry purchases also through

our computer screens like we're doing everything else. And even though, you know, people have started to go back to normal in terms of gathering and existing in the quote, real worlds, I think a lot of us have found that sometimes it's just easier over the computer. You know, there's less social anxiety. And if you look at companies like Meta who own Facebook, you know, trying to push their VR platform and basically marketing it as a new way of doing work meetings, that's sort of where I see porn going in the future. and I think it can have pluses and minuses.

You know, new technology is always exciting. There's new ways to make money for the performer. But I think that can also be something that's further isolating for people in society. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it points to like the fact that the 70s, 80s, 90s models of porn were missing a very important facet. And that was the relationship. Even historically pre, you know,

photography, anything that would be considered like porn, still had a sense of relationship, whether it was, you know, going into a room and sliding five cents or, you know, whatever it was. Yeah. You know, there was always some kind of relationship, some understanding of place and time that doesn't or didn't exist until kind of recently, right? Mm-hmm.

And, you know, that counterside to what we're just talking about with this idea of, like, selling clothes is also allowing people to buy clothes, which is just like wilds, that you can just have, like, an Amazon wish list. and like someone will send you like something they want to see you. And like it, again, it speaks to like this really interesting dynamic that is existing. And I think it's really important in like healing the relationships between the way we understand like sexuality in general and like our humanness, right? Oh yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I do also have an Amazon wish list.

I have had people send me things. And you can put stuff on there that that you like. you can have people just send you stuff. I've had fans buy me sex toys, which, you know, you could see that psychologically is that being an extension of themselves. You know, they can't be in the room with me, but they can buy me a sex toy, and that sex toy can be in the room with me, and that can be an extension of their physiology, you know, however they want to see it.

Yeah. I don't know. Like, like I said, a lot of it, I think, is really hopeful. But, like, that part of me, that's an old man is still kind of. of weirded out by the that idea of like being able to like buy something and sending it to someone like I don't know it just it breaks down the barrier in my head between like work and play like I think about like work from home right um like it's really important to still set some like firm boundaries of what work from home looks like and I'm just interested from performers perspective

kind of what your thoughts are on that I think a lot of those boundaries get blurred you know between work and play, you know, the first thing goes back to what I said about Instagram or any social media, something that is just a way that most people relax now to me is work. You know, yes, I will scroll it just for fun sometimes, but there's always that little voice in my head that's looking at what my peers are doing, looking at what their fans are. I'm always reaching out, trying to network. You know, if I'm not branding myself on Instagram, I'm trying to network with other people. And then, you know, the other aspect of that is when you have an only fans, whether you have it with a partner, whether you have it with a friend, whether it's by yourself, you know, there's always that voice in the back of your head telling you to monetize every sexual encounter that you have. You know, whether it's me coming home from work and just trying to, you know, masturbate, there's always a little voice in my head that says, well, you could have put up the ringlight and film this, you know. And it, It definitely, when you're a work-from-home sex worker, you know, the lines between work and play are constantly blurred.

I have to imagine that's really difficult. I mean, I find the same thing with like any time I find a book that I'm enjoying or book that I'm not enjoying, which is the case right now, and being like, well, I could turn this into content. And it's like, well, does everything have to be content? And at what point am I ruining the things that I care about? Absolutely. You know, that, that to me, I think, is the scariest part of this whole experiment that we're doing where we're doing everything virtually. And I think there's plenty of good benefits to it. But I think the thing I worried about the most is losing our humanness, our ability to connect with one another and to understand clear boundaries of who we are and the rest of the world.

And the more intimate your work, the more difficult, I imagine that becomes. Yeah, I don't know if you have anything you want to add to that. And I think as a sex worker, it's, I don't want to say it's hard to see your customers as people because you know every one's the people. But, you know, a lot. That's a lot to carry to think every customer is a person. Yeah. And also, you know, you have to remember that every customer is a person, but you're also looking at every person as a potential customer too. I think of sex workers as like therapists in a lot of ways, like physical therapists.

I know that physical therapist or a thing, but like physical, comma, therapist or something. And that means like there's only so much work, quote unquote, work that you can, you know, take on because of that emotional piece of it. And that's, you know, obviously our society doesn't value those things in the same way. So that comes with like a totally unfair caseload, so to speak, to use this metaphor way too long. Then I'm not sure if driving intimacy through like OnlyFans is necessarily a good. thing despite all of the other good parts of it, like if it's sustainable for content creators. I think it can definitely lead to a lot of burnout. I remember at one point a few years ago, I made a post on Facebook that the worst part of sex work is the unrequited emotional labor,

you know, because you're putting all these, all these parts of yourself out there, being vulnerable, being, you know, a shoulder for people to cry on, so to speak. And I don't want to say none of that is returned to you, but definitely not in the, in the way that it traditionally is. If you think of, like, a husband and wife, you know, they're there to support each other. They're, you know, hugging and holding hands and having sex, but also having deep, intimate conversations. And there's a give and take with that, you know, at its core, every relationship is transactional, whether you're giving love for love, you know, physical affection for money, or even just showing your videos, you know, for money or, you know, supporting a friend because you know, they're your friend and

they're going to support you later. Every relationship has a transaction at its core. And if, if you didn't feel like it was worth it for you, you wouldn't do it. At least that's how I, how I think about everything. Yeah. But there definitely is, you know, an aspect to sex work that's straining when you're monetizing intimacy and just not receiving that intimacy back. Not that I expected or even want it from clients or fans. It's just something that I don't think people were meant to do. You know, if that makes sense. I remember I was having a text conversation with a fan.

And it was just getting really frustrating. And I remember sending screenshots to my friend. And she said, that's like, that's like all the worst parts of having a boyfriend except you don't love them and I was like oh my god you hit the nail on the head yeah you know that and that's a thing I think um you know I I obviously haven't worked in the sex industry but you know just from the people that I've talked to the emotional burden that gets carried that is not really taught or at least until I think social media or I don't even say social media at least until like Twitter and Instagram so maybe like the last five or 10 years where it's become

something that people are talking about sex workers are talking about you know and engaging with like, yes, this is a part of our job. We are, you know, not trained to do this by any means. And it just, it just comes with the territory and it's a learning curve. And like, it's exhausting and you're not paid enough. Yeah. Basically. And that, you know, again, to go back to the only fans thing, like is, you know,

it's wild when you think about it that somebody, if they have a thousand subscribers, a thousand people, that's it. Like your boobs, you have a good. income, but how sustainable is that? How realistic is that? And it's just, it's two sides to a coin that one side sounds very sweet and the other side sounds like awful, a thousand, you know, partners that you have to emotionally take care of. Yeah, I remember watching a little video, and I think it was Trevor Noah, just a very quick little speech where he mentioned an article that, you know, men, men today are having more sex than ever, but there's still

reporting that they're having less sex. They're still reporting that they want more sex. And he went on to say that, you know, he doesn't think that men, and this was just a study of, I'm assuming, cis straight men, he went on to say that he doesn't think that men are really craving sex, but they're craving intimacy. So they're craving intimacy, and they go to a random hookup, and it doesn't fill the intimacy void.

void. And so people today are craving intimacy. And in in today's American culture, sex and intimacy are so intertwined. But there's so much more to intimacy. You know, it could be you just want more hugs. You know, you want more skin on skin contact. You want more deep conversations with your friends. You just want someone to tell you that they appreciate you, you know, and really talk to you. And that's, like you said, that's a hole that sex workers feel that, you know, I'm sure most of them weren't trained for. It speaks to like there's this unspoken dynamic and I think this is part of the social media, you know, polarization is that our relationships are much more shallow than they have been in the past. You know, my parents are immigrants and like my childhood was not very American in like the, you know, white cornbread, you know, American suburbs, blah, blah, blah. And I think about the relationships and the like willingness for like, you know, the running joke, I think that people have like of Italians is that they're like very touchy, feely and like, you know, all these things.

And like, it's true. But maybe that's just because that's how humans should be, like that that we have these like understandings that we're human and we need hugs. And like we want to kiss each other on the cheek because we care about each other. And it doesn't mean we're gay or, you know, like whatever stereotype, you know, that that might bring with it. And that's just like, it's really sad that something that was like these cultural artifacts, you know, as much as like it's so good that we've lost the weight of like the negative cultural artifacts at the same time we've lost the positive ones. And it's like very much the throw the baby out with the bathwater situation. Yeah, I definitely agree. I think that like you said, people can't kiss each other on the cheek without being made fun of for being gay or, you know, oh, you love.

like them or something. And, you know, I definitely tell my friends that I love them, you know, every chance I can get, because I know that people need to feel close to other people. I'll ask my final question. You know, this has been really interesting to hear your perspective on a lot of this as somebody that's been, to use the word we've used a lot tonight, intimate with the subject matter. As a whole, are you optimistic for the future of the porn industry? And I guess optimistic is kind of a relative word, right? Because like it depends on if you think this industry should exist as it exists or if what comes after is different and better or different and worse. Sorry, that's a really convoluted way of asking a question of this whole industry,

but I don't know if you can give me some final thoughts. So the future will definitely look different. I think that this is going to sound really sad. But I unfortunately, I think the future might look different and worse. You know, like I said, with the rise of VR and just the way people are isolating themselves behind their computer screens, behind their phone screens. My fear is that just more porn availability in different ways will lead people to this faux instant gratification, this instant gratification foe intimacy that porn provides, you know, instead of the the hard work to create a in-person bond, you know, and have that in your quote, real life. That's my fear. I am optimistic that it won't go that way, you know, sort of a, you know, hope for the best,

prepare for the worst scenario. All right. So I know I said that was my last question, but actually I've got one more. I've actually got two more. Okay. The last one's not really a question. But the first one, though, what as consumers, what can people do if you think, like, that would, what is the most ethical thing to do as a consumer?

I think the most ethical thing to do, well, hands down, the most ethical thing to do is to pay for your porn. don't pirate anything. Don't go onto leaked sites. The nose are really easy to come by. You know, don't consume anything that wasn't posted without the creator's consent, you know, revenge porn, leaked only fans. Those definitely are not ethical sources of pornography. I'd say the most ethical would be, it is the direct-to-consumer model because you know that person is willingly putting all of this online. They're, you know, willing and ready to create for you.

And for folks that either want to learn more about you or want to see what you look like, where can we send them to? I have an Instagram. It's Vibe Rider with a Y-V-I-B-E dot R-Y-D-E-R. And then that's my name on all of my socials, Twitter, only fans, at Twitter without the dot in the middle. So Twitter only fans. I have a many-beds. I have a website.

It's viberider.com. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been really fun. I know we've chatted in the past. I'm sure we'll be touching bass in the future. Yeah, I definitely look forward to it.