Tomorrow - 106: Virtual reality

Episode Date: December 5, 2017

It’s a very special week on Tomorrow with Joshua Topolsky. We’re pulling out our Oculus Rifts, stepping into our cartoon avatars, and taking your calls about what we should do in there. It’s exciting, it’s strange, and it could be a total disaster! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, tomorrow listener, what you're about to hear is an experiment that we did recently, where Ryan and I were in virtual reality for an entire episode of the show. If you find the audio to be aggravating, annoying, or simply stupid, please know that we didn't do any of this on purpose. And if you're a real glutton for punishment, you can actually see the live performance of said podcast at youtube.com slash outline. Okay, enough preamble. Here's the show. Hey and welcome to tomorrow I'm your host Josh Witt's Polsky and with me as always is Ryan Hullahan Ryan thank. Thank you for being here.

Oh, thank you for having me here. I really don't like the fact that your mouth keeps moving for reasons that I don't understand. Um, our mouth isn't moving. This is tomorrow, of course, and we are live from a virtual space provided by Mark Zuckerberg and the oculus uh... the oculus rift corporation and they have a name on a really note they've got really caught they've been called oculus and i was palm or lucky yeah get a palm or lucky good old

all right palm or lucky good for a great friend of mine were facebook friends actually was the show the real world you can tell how you can tell how meeting for those relationships are uh... when you hear about stuff like that which is the story that we published last night called The Death of the Internet. And a lot of that is actually concerned with what people like Mark Zuckerberg are doing when it comes to the internet. Oh boy, sorry, I just changed the background.

My apologies, and I just put it right there. And this is one of the things like this actually is, and I wrote about this several years ago, and at the verge about how Facebook VR is one of these things where it's kind of like they could do their own version of the internet here. It's really annoying that you're talking, your mouth is moving.

I just, I love what you're saying. Is there something we can do about your guitar that where your mouth doesn't move? Is it like picking up my audio? I think that's what's happening. It's that it's imperfectly guessing that I'm talking. But I will tell you this, I don't get rid of this, by the way. You hold it in your hand and you look at your wrist and hit delete.

Of course, yeah, that's awesome. So intuitive. You know how you delete things on your own wrist in real life? This is not working. Not working. So far, this guy has got to be the worst podcast of all time. This is not, it's like, I can't, oh. Oh, there it is. No, okay, I had to push through basically into my all time. This is not, it's like, I can't, oh. Oh, there it is.

No, okay. I had to push through basically into my rhythm. Yeah, right there, your wrist, like real life. That's cool. Anyhow, all right, it's 4.20, oh no. It's 4.29, very hard to see in these goggles. Very, very blurry. Yeah, it is sort of like,

Anyhow, we're about a half an hour late, but you know, the important thing is we're here and we're talking about the future and we're talking about the destruction of everything that we know and love at the hands of Mark Zuckerberg and his, and his crotes and Trump and yeah, anyhow, Ryan, did you, did you, anyhow, did you read the piece that I wrote? Yes, I read the piece that you wrote. I was, it was a kind of late at night.

I was on the subway and it was a dark moment and it was a dark piece. That's what I'm looking for. But it was very moving and it's sort of the kind of horror that I have been thinking about for a while, especially since my mom only uses Facebook as the whole internet. And I was thinking like, how many people is that true? And I think it's true for more and more of us

because more I think about it, I use Google, Facebook, and then Amazon Web Services runs everything else. Yeah, no, but I mean, you know, it's not just like, it's not just that Facebook has, has, you know, really changed the internet. It's that there's this weird confluence of forces of like this gamified version of the internet, which we're in right now, which is a depressing hell world. We're all about points like like, please, we, you know, smash that like button, smash the subscribe, whatever you use.

And all the points are games anyway, so that even if you want to do video on Facebook, you're not getting real viewer numbers, the metrics are all like, games to make Facebook look good. It's really unsettling. Yeah, no, it's horrendous anyhow. And so, and so, oh yeah, right. John Ligamarsino, our producer, just reminding me that you can call in

to talk to us in a virtual space. You can call in from your sad, lame, desperate meat space and talk to us in this life. Living in this infinite, in this world of infinite possibilities. But only one corporation known as virtual reality. And you know, we can communicate between worlds just to think it would be really good.

What is our dial in number? 202. Okay, hold on. Wait, hold on. 688. Okay. 1697. 202.

202. 1688. 1697. And I'll answer it on this little phone. Why is this not annoying? But I made it for me. This is some kind of weird brush. Hold on, I'm going to get rid of these now.

Looks more like a nose ring. All right. OK, just keep going. All right. Well, in any event, what I was saying is I just feel like it's really unsettling that when I use my Xbox, I'm using Microsoft stuff, and I'm using it to watch an Amazon Prime video, and then I'm posting about it on Twitter or Facebook,

and you're like, there's four companies that are controlling all of this, and the idea that Facebook now, because of net neutrality, could just buy its way into being the only place, like you can only click, it's cheapest for you to click news stories through Facebook than it is elsewhere,

that whole fake news thing becomes a lot more unsettling. Let's go intoling. I just wish that, I don't really understand what's happening. I just wanted to recall us. There we go. There it is. We got this random tool. Let me put that word. I think that the, it's not so much that it's just those companies. To be a professional honestly, I'm not so bothered that it's just a few companies.

I'm bothered that those companies have bad fucking ideas. What really upsets me about Facebook and I mean, Google actually has slightly fewer bad ideas than these other companies. But like Twitter and Facebook, I mean, Amazon, Amazon's obviously a diabolical corporation, but it's hard to, I'm sorry, something's going on with these dice. I don't really know, God, this is so stupid. Yeah, you can play dice is the only game. Palmer lucky decided anyone would just want to play dice here.

He loves to gamble. It's the worst. Well, here's what I, well, actually what bothers me about that is that I just remember like, there was forums that like, you know, random person owned and you knew who owned the site and it ran out of his like apartment. Like I remember that and maybe that wasn't a perfect system but it sort of seemed,

I mean, might be a little sweet thinking now, but it sort of seemed nice that the internet was broken up into these pieces that you could own or control or say what's right for your area. And when you look at YouTube, like the ad apocalypse, all that stuff is because one, like, algorithm is deciding what isn't as good. And so like all those gay and LGBT creators had their stuff demonetized because the algorithm decided that that was two adults for advertisers. And that's like unsettling that one company decides whether or not they have a good idea. Well, I think that the issue is, I think that the issue is we have basically based the internet on these original ideas of what the internet's supposed to be like,

and we're just kind of wittling them down. Like Facebook wiggles down, like, you know, you can go, actually, I've been reading this, this Jared linear book called You Are Not A Gadget, which I recommend everybody. But you know, it talks about how, you know, Facebook, these things are like, you go from these very expressive forms of communication on the internet, these web pages where you could do anything you want. And now we ended up with these fucking boxes that are like, oh, your content goes in here, it's only a certain kind of content,

it's only a little certain way. And then you have to like this, oh, we provided like eight emotions you can respond to with this, like, you can be sad or you can be happy or whatever, but like they're not really- Well, that's the thing, and I realized that I was about real emotions. I wanted them to put with this, like, you can be sad or you can be happy or whatever, but like they're not really, that's the thing that I realized about real emotions. I wanted them to put out a dislike button and then I was like, why is it that,

like, I have to wait for a company or like when Twitter introduced gifts, how long was it? So you said a dislike button. Well, how long was that using gifts on Twitter before they decided to make it an official part of the app? But like, but yeah, gifts are like a part of the internet.

But it's a part of the internet and it shouldn't take that. And it would be different if all these APIs were really open, but they start open and then they slowly whittle them down to the point that, nah, you're just gonna use the official Twitter app. Which is like, it's very bad. The worst app.

Okay, by the way, we can go anywhere. So the good part of this horrible internet thing is that we could just be, ah! What is this? Look at this, we're in some kind of a painting. Do we have the rights to this? I feel like this is definitely something. I mean, it's just, it. We're in some kind of a painting. Do we have the rights to this? I feel like this is definitely something. I mean, it's just it's Star Wars. Some kind of copyright violation.

Don't get mad at us. Hey guys, it's John. And the stream can hear me. We have a caller. Oh, we've got a caller. We've got a caller. That's great. Colin from St. Louis. He's on the line. Colin, welcome to the show from your sad. He's not on yet. Yeah, I know. Colin's there. Colin. I'm calling. Welcome to the show from your pathetic meat space. Ooh, let's go ahead on. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. What would you like to know? My question was regarding just VR in general.

As somebody who's been vaguely interested in the whole genre of not not really genre, new interface for gaming. I was wondering if now is a good time to purchase a VR headset? Is this the right spelling of your name? So, is that the correct spelling? C-O-L-I-N. Oh, you can't see me. Yeah. We put your name up.

I would say I really like this, and it seems cool. Two things. One, it needs to be wireless because this is crazy. I feel like I'm an avatar and I'm like linking up with Josh. And the other thing is, it's a little sweet and we'll talk after. But these handset things, I don't know if we can get a shot of me holding them, they're pretty good, but it should be a power glove. Like it should just be a power glove. Yeah, I mean, I will say this.

VR has gotten better than it was a few years ago. Yeah, I mean, it's very impressive. I mean, it's almost magical. We did this little intro thing where I met a robot and it taught me to do things. It was like a little Wally robot and it was so cool and it was expressive like Pixar E and it taught me to do things. It was like a little wally robot. And it was so cool. And it was expressive, like Pixar-E. And it taught me how to make a gun

and shoot little virtual things and make a, you know, a little rocket. A little rocket. I wish we were in that room. We could go to that room. No, I don't think we can. But in any event, it was cool and interesting. And I was like, I would love to see a story like this.

But also, it's a chicken or egg thing, right? Because unless you go out and buy the headset, who's going to make a game for it? And unless you're repurposing other games that don't run as well, because they're not optimized for this. And so it's when it hits that critical mass, I think. Right? Like, what is this?

What is that? How is that useful? Is this the thing that can anticipate that good moment coming in the next couple of years? Or... It needs to hit a price point. And PlayStation VR is terrible. But this really good VR stuff needs to hit a price point of like probably $300 for the entire thing.

The set, the, well, I mean, like the set, the computer you need to run it, all of that needs to hit a price point that's affordable for everybody. And Josh is now pushing a chart into my face. I'm just seeing a chart. He's the internet, man. I'm just seeing a chart. It's not visible. Where's the chart? I'm seeing a different thing than you're seeing. Anyway. I'm saying,

you're not really about, look, it's about how, how, what kind of hobbyist do you want to be? You know, I think the question really is like, do you want a tinker right now? Because this is a tinker in this is tinkering. This is not like, this is, Jesus, this is not like a comfortable fun thing to do with friends and family. Okay because this is a tinker in the situation. Is this tinkering? This is not like, this is, Jesus. This is not like a comfortable, fun thing to do with friends and family, okay?

This is like, you're alone in your room, some room somewhere, which I'm into, by the way, this is, I'm very good with this idea. You know, but it's like, the quality is fair. I can see the pixels very clearly. This isn't like a super high-res. I mean, it looks great. When I first put this on, I was like, I don't wanna leave.

That was the first thing I said, right, guys? I feel the same same way too, but like I think it's because the world is so bad that anything seems better than, I mean, I think this is like going to, I think if you went on vacation right now, Colin, you'd probably be like, I don't think I want to go back. Yeah. So I guess the answer is, yeah, why don't you get one? And join us in here. Get it and try it out. If you have the money and you're really interested, it's pretty good because you need a really

high powered piece. You need a really nice gaming and you need you've got to get the headset and the hands, which are and then games, which are all separate prices. A very poor. By the way, we're not here to promote VR. Okay. We're going to talk about, I mean, Colin, not that I'm saying you shouldn't get one because you definitely run out to wherever the Facebook Oculus VR setup is sold and purchase it.

But secondarily, Facebook is destroying the world. Trump is helping them. And I don't think we're really looking deeply at that. And it's disturbing to me. Yeah. So, but also, uh, great deals on the Oculus headset available now at Best Buy. Inclusion, it's a lot of fun, but it's probably not for everybody right now. That's right, that's right.

I agree. All right, do we have any other callers who want to talk about real issues? Sorry, Colin, not to say that you don't want to talk about a real issue, but I still like I'm getting mean in virtual reality. I feel like virtual reality. Yeah, I feel like I'm, this is Mike, I feel like I can barely hear myself. This Mike seems weird to me. I can hear you.

I feel like I've gotten very rude and mean in virtual reality. It's almost like the fact that I'm not in a real space with real people, or not in a real space right now, has given me kind of license to do whatever I want, talk however I want, you know. Well, that's what I thought when we did the show was that this would be very freeing

because you're not. I find it to be like being seen. I find it very distracting. Oh, really? I feel like I'm thinking clearer. Really? Because I feel like what you're doing is doodling. And what I'm doing is I'm looking for something else

to do besides talk. Oh, yeah, because you don't doodle when we do the show. I mean, occasionally, like, what's the point of this? Why does this exist? Right, guys, we got our next. I mean, occasionally, like, what's the point of this? Why does this exist there, you know? All right, guys, we got an next caller. Oh, another caller. We have another caller. We have Christian from LA.

We have Christian from LA. Is this a call in that? It's a picture here on the way. Christian calls it every week. So Christian, how can we help? What's up, Christian? Hey, guys, well, first I was going to call to tell you that your cameraman's hands were freaking me out

because they were totally flipped backwards Very uncomfortable. Look at what I'm looking. You see what we're looking at here. Does anybody see this? Is there a thing in front of me? The camera is an actual person who looks like Justin Timberlake. Are you seeing this? It's really fucking disturbing. Yeah, the person's terrible. Yeah, his hair looks like poop emojis. I mean, he's always doing this Here's what I'm seeing, right? This is this is what I'm seeing. Okay. There okay there's Ryan okay and then I go look at this fucking guy over here look at the dead look at his dead stare look at him look at he's a monster disgusting he does great with the ladies though anyhow all right so you were saying well all monsters are you know go ahead so the other thing is Josh have, have you done or Josh or Ryan, have you, either you guys done VR with eye tracking? No, where did you do that? What's the idea of that?

So I did this at E3. There's a company in there that does it. And what's great is it's like a device that you put into an Oculus or a Vive. So it's not a completely separate device. It actually fits into the mount. And it completely changed to are for me when I you.

Wow. It's awesome. Interesting. So the thing that it does is it fixes the problem that you have in VR where you don't really know how far something is because it knows what you're looking at. So when you reach out to grab it, you don't have to like guess that's whether you're going to get it or not because it is

doing a little bit of it. It makes up that space difference. Like distances don't look so great. And this is the first time I've ever used a selfie stick. This is so dumb. It's like, it's like, you created a whole world and they're like, let's put a selfie stick in there. Yeah, they don't have the use cases decided.

I will say what this needs and what this would really benefit from is eye tracking but also like sort of face tracking. Like if it could know what my emotion was or what the expression I was making. Yeah. I'm looking at Josh and I can't read his face I just look like a generic smiley guy. I feel like I have a black-ass thing issue What I would like is to be able to slide into some kind of like rage like a tube Now I'd like to slide into some kind of tube that had sensors all over it where it could just get every like a goo Every is a goo or a tube or like a that's filled with some high-oil. And a hole. Where it just, every,

It's like the pod that's in the beginning of the matrix. Yeah, but, but, but one that I made a choice to slide in or out of, and then I could slide in there and it would just get my whole body up. And then, and then this is more like it. And then, um, It's just just perfect for me. And then we're going to read all of my bodily reactions to everything, which I think could be ideal.

You know, the one advantage to this job is you're having a great hair day and you don't have to worry about it all the time. What are you saying about my other hair days? So you said I'm having bad hair days? No, it is one thing that I consider it is that I think is great because I have extreme body dysmorphia and I think I look like a monster. Is that I don't look like a monster in here think I look like a monster. Is that, is that I don't look, I don't look like a monster in here. I look like a regular guy. I look like a, I look

like this guy over here except with the beard. More of a beard. Except for the camera man. He looks like a monster. Caravan is disturbing. Let me get, I just, I want to remind everybody with a camera man. Oh, we're in some kind of saw movie. Oh, and I want to, I want to remind everybody with a camera man. Looks like, what is this? We're in saw. I think it's supposed to be something that I go. Look at this fucking guy. Okay. He's the worst. I hope there's no kids watching by the way.

I can't stand that now. Also, I hope I, please don't do that. What are they doing with the arms is extremely serious. This is, oh, you can cut to my part if you don't need to do these selfies. Well, I'm enjoying this. I'm sorry. Well, look at me, look at me,

and then really be in VR. What on? What is going on? What is going on? Hi. Okay. I feel like, I feel like the equivalent, if you're watching this right now, me and then really be in VR. What on? What is going on? Hi. I feel like the equivalent, if you're watching this right now, it's like two guys jerking off as what's happening. Well, I will say, I was just going to say, we made ourselves and put ourselves in the

outliner. I feel like we're not thinking what the possibilities could be. Just, you know, I'm doing the VR jerking off motion. Just some of this shit. Here, let me draw you a little. Please, no. Oh, Christchurch's done anyway. Sorry.

All right, I tried to keep track when you're in here. Maybe we need eye tracking. Anyhow, thank you, Christian, for calling in. Always a pleasure to hear your voice. Always a unique pleasure to be graced with your presence on the phone line, whether we're in a virtual space or a real space. Thanks for talking.

Okay, bye. So yeah, I mean, in all seriousness, we should talk a little bit about what's going on on the internet. You know, this has been a great reality. We should have said the words net neutrality yet. Well, I mean, it's not just about saying the words net neutrality, it's about thinking about all of the things

that are happening on the internet and how damaging they are to people. And I wrote this piece, which was actually partially about just thinking about how I felt as a person who kind of grew up on the internet. I was like, I feel that I was raised on the internet. I feel that nothing that I have or do would have been possible without the internet. I completely agree. Even to the degree that I was able to Google, when I was a kid and I had issues,

when I wanted to come out of the closet or something was going on at school, you could Google and there was resources and people you could talk to and open up. The idea that any kid would be closed off from that, it's closing a public library. That's such a damaging thing to society. Why would you? What you're describing sounds,

to me, I can't even fathom such a thing because I was on the internet like pre-Altavista. You know? Like I was on the internet when there was, I was like AOL, when there was no way to find anything, but also there was nothing there to find. Yeah. You know, I was like a BBS.

Well, no, no, no, BBS is, were separate. Like, I mean, they were like their own thing, right? I mean, eventually some of those kind of made their way to the internet, but like, I was on the internet when I used like the Pine email client. Do you know the Pine email client? I mean, eventually some of those kind of made their way to the internet. But like, I was on the internet when I used like the Pine email client. Do you know the Pine email client? It's a good idea. It's like a Unix.

It's like you get to it from a Unix prompt. It's like a text-based. Oh my God. It's a text-based email client. I used to, my browser was called like links. I mean, I actually, we did a world dispatch, which is our morning show, which everybody should subscribe to on this, which is our morning show, which everybody should subscribe to, on this, which will be up tomorrow morning.

But, I, you know, like, I used to, I kind of, in one of my early internet experiences, was I would tell net, which was a way of connecting to various servers, I would tell net into this thing called V-Rave, which was a virtual rave, where ravers from around the world would hang out. What? Yeah, and I used to spend like, I spent, you know, a year of my life talking to people in like Perth, Australia, in the middle of the night.

A virtual rave. Well, you could be in a virtual rave now. No, it wasn't a virtual, it was just text. Yeah. It was like, it makes IRC look advanced, which is like IRC is, it actually might have been IRC now, I think of it, but anyway. Well, I used, I used a lot of like Habbo Hotel, which is very different.

But I used that, and mostly what you used to, I mean, you could design little rooms. But mostly what you used to, it was like talk people and meet people, and you could go in different rooms with a hotel of interest. And it was good for someone that was like, felt different and isolated.

Like, the idea that a kid nowadays might be like, oh, my parents only pay for us to use Netflix and Facebook and I'm so happy that I have those. It's unsettling. Yeah, I mean, I mean, there's today Facebook and now that they wanted to do, that they're releasing messenger for kids. Oh, God, that was horrible.

For kids that are like 13 and up. I mean, just, I think the issue is you've got to ask yourself, like, what is Facebook's motivation? Are they just like, oh, they're just trying to lock you in early on? I mean, their thing is like, oh, we want to connect the world, but that's not their business. No. Can I, I mean, yet as a byproduct of selling ads and selling data,

they're connecting the world. I wish I could do airquits. They want to lock you into their advertising algorithm real early on. Yeah, they're connecting the world. I wish I could do airquests. They want to lock you into their advertising algorithm real early on. Yeah, they're connecting the world. You can't really do airquests here. Connecting the world. I need to, you can only do one finger.

Connecting the world, it's like air pinches, they're connecting the world. Anyhow, you know, they need to make money off of people, they need to make it as soon as possible. And so like, I think it's a very disturbing. I mean, that is not the intention of the internet was that it was not supposed to be controlled by a couple of entities that only had commerce in mind.

The promise of the internet is something much grander. And I think it's kind of an incredible disappointment where we've ended up. And I think it's also telling that the people who have, I mean, people like Trump have reached so much benefit from the way the internet's been designed because it's been designed like this huge twisted game and and it's so easy to scam the system, you know, when Mark Zuckerberg was like, oh fake news That's not a real thing. I mean he either didn't, which means he doesn't know how his product works, or he knew and didn't care, or they knew and couldn't do anything about it, which I mean, I

think the latter is probably unlikely. But what's crazy to me is like, it's so obvious how their business sort of made it. And honestly, it's at the stage because media companies are so desperate right now that Facebook was like, we will get you clicks. And they went all in. It's at the stage and they're like, yeah, you can buy your way into someone's viewport. Yeah. Like, just give us money and you can do whatever you want.

I mean, and that's exactly what happened. Shut up down whoever's thrown. So, so it's very easy to gain that system, right? Yeah. It's very easy to like gang harass people on Twitter because of the way the system works. And then on the other end of it. Yeah, and the reality is like, the people who are in charge of these things

are like, well, if the commerce looks good. Yeah, if we're getting paid. Why should we change it? Who cares? I mean, there's probably a rounding error of people who are harassed. And they're like, listen, there's always problems, you know? That's like when, when, when,

when a biz tweeted, y'all pile on us, I still can't get over that tweet. Like, we pile on you, like a bunch of people begging for help piles on you. I mean, also, it's a crazy thing to say. Also, Biz is a rich white guy who has never experienced this. He's probably never had a moment of harassment in his life.

No, the closest he ever gets is that people asking for an edit button on Twitter. I mean, literally the most controversial thing Biz has ever said publicly is that tweet that you just been. Why? We have a call about this. We have a call about this.

Yeah, we have a call from Ryan. You actually know Ryan. Josh. Oh, by the way, Ryan. The reason you can hear me right now is because Josh and Ryan have headsets on their faces and they can't see us. Oh, I didn't even know they could hear you. They can hear me.

Oh, that's why I was repeating things. I love seeing people. I love we have a team. Also, hear you. They can hear me. Oh, that's why I was repeating things. I love seeing people. I love we have a tape. Also, if you're listening to the audio of this, get a grip. Really sorry. Really sorry. I like how we have in the virtual room here, we have a table of shit in the corner. Just in case you weren't wondering if we ever have a table of shit.

Why don't we just eat? Can you wait for Ryan to go in? Ryan. Ryan. Ryan, you guys can hear me. Yeah, you sound great. How are you? I'm pretty good.

This is Rondo though, really. Yeah, okay. I do know Rondo. We used to work together. He's an amazingly talented videographer. Videoographer. No, a producer director. I'm a creator per newer.

He's a creator. He's on, you find him on Patreon. He's got a pretty sick creator per newer. He's a creator. He's on Patreon. He's got a pretty sick Patreon happening right now. It's pretty lit. I'm just, you're serious. I don't have one. I was, I'm kidding. I don't think Ryan has a Patreon.

I was just making that up. I Ryan, what's up? You remember like, I don't know. I was like a year ago. I snapped you, Josh. And I was like, I then that's fucking you're like, yeah, it is. And I was like, I think it's the business model, man.

And you were like, I don't know. We should talk about this. I don't know. It seems like you're kind of saying that, like it is Facebook business is selling ads. And so what they're doing is just monopolizing attention. So like, what? Like your solution, what's your business model solution

to fix social networks? Like how do you fund social networks and have good, and then you can't. I mean, I think model solution to fix social networks? Like how do you fund social networks and have good, and... Don't have, I mean, I think we should have fewer social networks. We should have more places where people can gather but fewer social networks. What do you think about that? I actually also think that things like Slack as much as like you're replacing one problem with other problems are at least distributed and private and like... I mean, listen, human beings weren't meant to fucking go on a service. By the way, I don't care. I'm not like one of these guys like, we weren't meant to fly.

You shouldn't get on a plane. But like, it's maybe not great that all of society is screaming at all of society. Maybe we shouldn't, maybe the best thing for human beings isn't to be limited by 140 characters or 280 characters and then share anything you want to as many people as possible. Like, it's possible that Twitter want to as many people as possible. It's possible that Twitter's idea, which was really cool, it might have been really cool for a bunch of tech guys, and it might have been really cool when it was a few hundred thousand, or maybe a million, or whatever it is.

But I'm not sure that these ideas actually hold up in reality. I think that anything you've ever said or written down should exist forever and be seen by millions of people who you didn't expect to see it. And by the way, I'm not a lot, I fucking love technology. No, we're in VR. But I think the thing is, is that we have to start to think about what we're doing. Like we have to start to think about how we use these things.

And not just what gives us an endorphin rush. Yeah, and what we're using them for, and I will say this, it doesn't matter what Facebook does. It doesn't matter what, I mean, to some extent, what really matters is what we do as human beings. And what really matters is how we come at these things. And I do think the danger, of course, is that, and this is what I wrote about, is that we will reach a point soon where we don't have the option anymore of doing something about it.

But it will only be because we did not recognize the warning signs and we did not veer away from the paths that we could have gone down, which give control to the wrong people. I mean, right now we're in a situation where we're backed into a corner by corporations, by the Silicon Valley culture, which is like share everything, save everything, archive everything, sell everything, yeah, and feed everything into an algorithm. Right. And we have a politician in charge of the country who believes, well, who is actively interested in controlling information as much as humanly possible, is in his best interest to control and pervert what information is.

And he has the power now, which he is exercising, to change how that information flows. And so I think when you see the combination of those things, and I realize now that I might sound a little bit like Bernie Sanders, because those gesticulations I'm doing, when you see those things, all together, Ryan,

that's where the problem is. That's where the problem is. The 1% of the internet, control the 99% of the internet. Is that exactly what the fuck is. The one percent of the internet control the 99 percent of the internet control is, forget forget the one percent of the fucking internet. Yeah. It's like one guy. Yeah.

I mean, have you seen his Betsy DeVos completely, completely incapable of doing her job based on her experience? She has the fucking job. The guy who runs the EPA completely, he wants to destroy it, controlled by corporate interests. He's in charge of what happens with the part of America is all run by someone who had no idea what it was before he got the job. And I'm not saying that the dude in charge of the FCC right now doesn't

know anything because he's just evil to his core like he just needs a little bit. He's, but his job is to serve corporate interests. And like while he serves corporate interests, he serves Trump. And when Trump gets what he wants, we don't get what we want. And it's very dangerous. And at the end of the day, sorry, Ryan, I haven't let you talk very much. But at the end of the day, Mark Zuckerberg doesn't want to connect the world. Mark Zuckerberg wants to control the world. And what he's doing with Facebook, he's extremely dangerous.

And as long as we let, as long as we elect the wrong people, and we let them do what they want, we're not going to be able to stop this, which is why Trump must be stopped. But also, we need to be really careful about who we elect and how we elect them and how we think about the way our political decisions have real world decisions. Because I think now we've seen through Trump all of these ways that you can manifest badness in the real world with the things that you do that feel very removed from it. And so anyhow, so what's the business model? I mean, you look, I don, so what's the business model?

I mean, you look, I don't know what Facebook's business model needs to be because I don't know. I don't know if there should be a business that serves exactly what it's going to say sometimes. A billion people. Sometimes the government's job is to step in because corporations, interests, are just money. And they're always going to be money.

Even if Mark Zuckerberg conceptually feels bad about the one company running the internet, even if he truly felt like, well, that's not what we're doing, his incentive will always be, he will always be, well, that's not what we're doing. His incentive will always be, he will always be rewarded for doing that and trying to create a monopoly. So we need somebody to step in and say, like we did with net neutrality,

the incentive is different now. We need to, there shouldn't be one company that could cause all the information in the world. Even Google, I'm uncomfortable with the fact that there's one search engine. Here's the thing, here's the thing. This can be a very controversial statement. Corporations are bad.

No, I think, I do think we need government regulation of things like the Internet. Yeah, I agree. But the government needs to be a good actor in, that is acting on the good, acting in good will towards the citizens of the nation, not towards its fucking richest corporations. And I know that they're not towards, sorry, how I want to say that. And not towards the interests of controlling and perverting and reducing what happens in the flow of information. And we currently do not have a government that it can be given, what I consider to be a extremely precious responsibility

which is making sure that we don't corrupt and destroy what the internet is, which is it's well on its way to being corrupted and destroyed as we speak. But I know that the response to that from people is going to be, well, people voted for Donald Trump or they voted against net neutrality. So that's what we voted for. But the thing is, we're in a vicious cycle. They voted for him because Facebook was influenced. Well, that's his exact name. And this is my point. I mean, Twitter doesn't ban Trump. Yeah. Because Trump is really fucking good for Twitter. And it doesn't matter how many

anti-Muslim videos he shows or how many death threats he makes to the citizens of North Korea. I mean, in a bad way, I understand he's the president of the United States, but you could say, hey, you retweet a video that are against our terms of service, we're going to take those down. And you get a strike one, strike two, whatever. I mean, they're on the wrong side of history, in my belief, Facebook, in its neutrality in many ways is on the wrong side of history because neutral is not a position that actually has value when you're dealing with the, when you're dealing

with the abuse of people. And I think that- Now making a choice is a choice. Yeah, that's right. I mean, to say that Nazis have as much of a right to speak as a Black Lives Matter is making a choice about neutrality that clearly negatively impacts a minority. And the group is under attack. And so like you can say the fucking guy from the Daily Stormer has every right to say

that we should wipe out all kikes and all Jews and we should be gassed and end of and you know, going campaigns campaigns of mass of harassment. You can say he's allowed to say that, but you know that it's wrong that he's saying it. You know that it should be tolerant of all beliefs, except for intolerance against other beliefs. I don't need to tolerate for intolerance. I don't want to be just ramping all time. I feel he's really simple.

Like, the president is a racist. He's surrounded himself with racists. He has emboldened racists in this country to literally kill. He's emboldened them to take to the streets. By the way, I don't think the racists are our biggest problem. I don't think that they are actually the biggest problem in this country. I think we have a very corrupt government that has lots of problems, but they are symptomatic of something very, very damaged.

And there's nothing acceptable about him, about Trump doing that, and there's nothing acceptable about those people and the ideas that they have. And any tolerance of that idea is, in my opinion, is wrong and should be met with extreme pushback, which the Republicans don't do. And they're literally about to elect a fucking pedophile. I can't. I mean, the Republicans are the most industrially endorsed. They're the most debased. They're the most debased. By the way, I'm not a Mr. Morality. Like I do whatever the fuck you want, but unless it's fucking kids, it's not. You do whatever you want. Your bedroom or way out in the streets. I don't actually care,

but if it's kids, I have a, I think that's where I draw the line. And I'm going to be like, yeah, you know what, if it's kids are murder, like, raping somebody, sorry. Yeah, anyhow, Ryan, sorry. Anyway, we've been ranting it. Yeah, what is this thing is in front of me? Nah, sorry. I was good. Can I, can I follow up?

Yeah, please do. You do. You really just got us into a, into a hot, huh? We're gonna change the tone that goes around. Nah, I know. Well, yeah, it was exactly, I know, it was like your, really your groove.

I know, I know. Well, yeah, it was exactly, I know, it was like your, really your groove. So in your piece, you said the utopian version of the techno utopian version of the internet was what was sold to us, and it's still being sold to us sort of. But now, what do you think is an actual useful version of what you think the internet should be? Like a useful techno utopia based on your experience of the internet, your whole life, and what the actual nature of the internet is? Well, I'm not sure that there's any such thing as a utopia. I mean, I think we should get away from the idea that anything is going to be perfect,

anything at all. Like, I think we should get, oh, I like this. I love this. This is very cool. Moody. Very blade, runnery. I think we should get away from, I like this. I love this. This is very cool. Rudy. Very blade-runnery. I think we should get away from the idea that there's a utopia of any sort. We just need to keep refining. I don't think this first of, I don't think there's physical world utopias and I don't think there are virtual world utopias.

I think there are places that we can make better or worse. And I think, yeah, to rye into your point. We're not going to be perfect ever. If you're perfect, that man's an impossibility. Things not going to be perfect ever. If you're perfect at man's and impossibility, things are going to evolve. But like, I think finding a place is where people can interact in a way that doesn't demand that isn't a game where people can interact and share ideas where where there's a reasonable amount of respect given to commonly agreed upon ideas like genocide of a race or a culture or a religion is bad, you know, just commonly agreed little ideas like that.

I mean, even little things like, you know, everyone should be allowed to use the bathroom. That seems like a pretty basic human thing. That's not get crazy, okay. No, I mean, that's just insane. Like, why was it talking about it? By the way, also, I don't think that that's, I think that's like a debate made up by like one or two twisted politicians somewhere because they need an issue that they can like are you about.

I mean, I don't actually think Americans are, I really don't think Americans are like, I'm worried about who's using what after. But if we could say like, we got to stop with this nonsense, anyone who brings this crazy shit up, we're done with. Well, I just think that, I think that the idea of utopia is we need to get away from that. That's the first thing. I think we need to stop thinking that there's some perfect version of this that's going to work. I regret saying utopia.

Okay, fine. But like, what should the internet be like? You should be a place where you can interact and create and share and gather with people. But I don't think it should be one that's designed and limited by a single or a couple of corporations. And I don't think, most importantly, by the way, I don't care what Facebook does to a degree if I know that they, at some point,

will be checked by governments that are in the service of their people. I think, because I really believe the government's server, you know, a lot of people are like anti-government, they're like, get out of my way. It's like, well, actually, I think the government's fucking dope as hell. Like, I think the government is amazing.

I think that having a government that passes laws that help people and impact the lives of people and make the place where we live a better place. And by the way, this is true of all, not all, but this is true of many governments, of many sort of industrialized, modern countries. That's a really good idea. Governments are good. They do good things for people. But I think if they are corrupt and they allow corruption to breed and they allow commerce

and corruption to meet and the representatives of those governments are corrupted in that way, then I think that's really problematic. And so, I think it's okay if the internet is continues to be open. I think it's actually better if we force businesses that have reaped a lot of the benefit and a lot of the money off of access are forced to obey some form of regulation about what they can and can't do with the bandwidth.

Well, what they can and can't do with the way we all connect to each other. Then Facebook can do whatever it wants. As long as there's a chance of Facebook we put out a business by a business like Facebook because there's a free and open market to create it. But as long as we've got to do this shit here in Facebook VR and there is no other place to do this,

as long as they have a monopoly on whatever that next thing is. Yeah, listen, there isn't time when we broke up monopolies in this country. And we need to stop actually like internet monopolies aren't real monopolies. And plenty of plenty of other countries do this on a regular basis.

You know, this is fucking disturbing. I love this. This is really not cool. This is what I want my bedroom to look like. Anyhow, but the point is, the point. Not big. Oh, geez. The point is, is that March Simpson?

Yeah, and Woody and Buzz, all our corporate friends. I like this, I'm loving this. Anyhow, so the point is, this is good. Okay, this is good. The point is like, point's okay. When all of these parts are broken, when all of these parts are working to diminish a populace and to place corporate interests

above citizen interests, then we've got a problem. And that's the situation we're in now. Here's what it is. We're so close to Ready Player One right now and that book was terrible. Can we not live through that book? I enjoy Ready Player One. I thought it was pretty good.

I hated it. All right. Should we go? Ryan, do we answer your goddamn question? Sort of. Yeah, and I just heard a lot of criticisms, and I just wanted to hear some optimism about what you think this user could be. That's what? Do you feel more optimistic now or what?

Huh? Do you feel like you've been hit with some optimism now? Because I feel like probably not. No, I just, I've been really cynical for a couple of years inside of, I don't know. Listen, I think technology probably not. No, I just, I've been like really cynical for a couple of years, and so I don't know. Listen, I think technology is amazing. Optimism is a different way to go. Well look, look, here's the thing. I've actually been so optimistic about technology.

I mean, you know this. I mean, you know the stuff that I've written and you know how I think you know some of how I feel. Yeah, I actually do. I still have, that was part of the reason I wrote that Yes. I actually do. I still have. That was part of the reason I wrote that piece was, was, I felt, it's the longest time I have felt like this incredible optimism that like we're going to figure it out. But it's when I, when I've seen what has happened over the last several weeks, I mean, particularly

in the last several weeks, I see these sort of, these forces that, and now I'm starting to wonder if we actually can stop them. Because what it takes at this point is not for sites to black themselves out on whatever date we decide. It's not for people to write a signing on a petition. Because what I'm seeing is, is, we are, I mean, we are getting shit taken away from us at an alarming rate in this country. I mean, the tax bill that was just passed, which triggered, which triggered a lot of this.

I mean, also it was like a part of this church trigger about what was happening and what I wrote. And what's coming real. Like, if you can go into a session with a, where you've got a dominant party, they can write in whatever they want a tax bill that will be put into law by their president. With no criticism. No criticism. No rule over site. No review. No other, no real debate from the other party that matters at all, not even debate from their own party internally.

When you can pass a sweeping change in the law like that overnight, in literally in darkness, then I think we're into some pretty fucking dangerous territory. But it's their right as the, as the party that has the majority there to pass a law if they agree on it. What I think is where we need some kind of checks and balances. I hate to use that phrase, but it's like you shouldn't be able to do it in the way that they did it. And if you can do that, what else can you do in the cover of darkness? Yeah, what's the next thing you decide you either hate or your corporate actresses? I think they're doing it.

And I think Trump're doing it. And I think Trump is taking every liberty and we don't, we currently don't seem to know in this country how we stop that. And how we stop that is every single person who's mad about this, do not tweet about it or tweet about it, but also do something. Go vote, get involved. It's voting is the answer. The local issue stuff is what decides things like net neutrality.

So if you want to fix the internet, go get involved on a local level. And I know people keep saying that, but it's much easier than you think it is. But I say a week, you could do so. I think it's really, I think it's really key that people understand that, um, but you can be, you can be, you can be optimist optimistic as you want, but I think the issue is that you have to recognize that we're in like, I mean, how many times have you heard the phrase constitutional crisis spoken in the last year? We're in a place that's actually really dangerous right now. Anyhow, we have a bunch of calls. We have to get them to be called Ryan. Thank you for sparing this conversation. I'm sorry that that great data more optimistic view right now. but listen if this beautiful be movie picture exists everything is possible. Yeah, I don't know. He's wrong, but Ryan thank you.

All right. Thank you. Bye. I think we really upset Ryan. Yeah. I wish we were happier, but whatever. I mean, listen, dude, it's time to get real. It's time for happiness not here. You know, it's time for to get involved and do something about is that we could save everything. We just need to do it. What's their next car? Well, who's our next call? This is great. I'm loving this. Okay, so we got, um, you know, on a VR specific question, we got Andrew from Oakland. Oh, Andrew. Andrew from Oakland. You're on with us. I am. You're in the meat space. We're in the virtual space. I'm depressed now because of the conversation we just are sorry. I'm sorry. Did you vote for Trump? Did you vote for Trump? Did you vote for Trump?

No, of course it didn't. Did you vote for Jill Stock? Did you vote for Jill Stock? Talking about the odd technicality seems awfully trivial back there. All right, well, let's go. Now let's do it. We can talk tech too. Come on, it's on.

Sure. Hey, listen, yes, yes, the world is burning. Okay, we're all, our legs are fucking melting from the hot lava we're standing on, and yet we can still have some fun in the yard. But look, I'm doing the mock arena. Yeah, we can still have a party and Facebook VR, what's your question?

All right, well, okay, okay. I'm just gonna recenter myself. I saw a riff for a good hot weekend before I returned it. Oh, okay. And I feel like the video game and kind of the, some of the experiences that you can just do once are really impressive and there's a lot of novelty in them.

But then when you actually sit with the device for a couple of weeks, the, some of the flaws really come out for me. For example, do you guys notice that text is extremely illegible in the real story? Oh, yeah, the resolution this is like, this is beta. White, big white. I mean, text against a black thing I can read.

The rest like this, it says, there's a little panel in front of me that just says nonsense. This is a beta situation. I mean, we're not anywhere near this being something for like a normal, a normal, even it's slightly abnormal person. I feel like this is, I mean, I'm a complete freak. And this is like, there are a lot of things

that are very, very annoying about it. Yeah, you know? Everything sort of bent all the time? Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I honestly, like when you do the Oculus, did you go through the, how do I, I can't reach these balls? Do you get that ball over here? Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Oh, oh, oh. Oh, we actually touched, that was disturbing. It was really weird to feel a real thing for us. It was very strange. But like, did you do the Oculus, the kind of intro thing where you're sitting at the bench and you're talking to the robot? Yeah, I love the robot.

No, I'm asking the call of Jesus Ryan. Oh, I did. I think the one that I did was maybe a little bit older. There was a key rec that came in and you did a couple other little things. Super Mario out of the day. Yeah, I mean, that stuff's cool, but like, what is the killer app for this right now?

Is this it? Is this the killer app? I don't think it is. I mean, no, my God, no. I think honestly, and I said this before I think, and I'm just gonna say it again because it's true. When they get porn right in this, and they really get it good,

these things are gonna go flying off the shelves. They need a small headset, and obviously they need some kind of apparatus for your, you know, your genitals. And then I think you're gonna be really solid. I think you're gonna see Oculus Riffs flying off the shelves. But the problem with, I'll come to like fucking Facebook,

is they're so boring and childish. They're just good at nipples. They won't even do a good porn thing. Okay, you may feel nipples. You can say that, it works. But you can actually say what? We actually save a lot of people. We actually save a lot of young people

from a horrible life of working in the porn industry, which is very bad for most people. Yeah, some people. Not all, some people like it, but a lot of people feel very abused in that industry. Think about how many people we could save with a good VR porn experience. Yeah.

And yet it doesn't exist. And yet here we are. We're kind of waiting. We're kind of world-of-be-living. We're kind of nipples. I want to have sex with a fucking werewolf, you know? Why? Why is the debt?

Why are I having sex with a werewolf right now? Because the furry convention is in Cincinnati this week. No, it can be a T-rex for you. You mentioned the, you know, I want to bang a t-rex where your parents with this what i want to know that you know what are your other complaints that i mean i have a lot of complaints with it uh... you know i think the first one was that

uh... i will i was a little too sensitive to motion sickness so if there was traditional tracking you know kind of rendered environment i was okay but for things like video where it just does the head tracking, I would get nauseous almost immediately. And for I put like e-valkyrie and that other one where you're in a spaceship cockpit. And I last, maybe, like 30 seconds in those games before I had to take the head. Yeah, that's like a Samsung gear. Like, doesn't do the positional tracking, and I've done that a few times, and I really hate that. That's real bad.

Sorry, Samsung, but that is. I think, I think, on real. I think, yeah, I mean, there's just the motion tracking stuff. I feel like they've actually improved the lag a ton. Yeah, this feels okay to me. No, this is actually pretty tolerable, but then again, we're stationary. Yeah, and there's nothing on the table.

There's very little going on in the background. We're literally just sitting here. We're literally sitting here, right? Which is what they're also actually developing VR Roller Coaster, where you put this on in your own thing. That sounds like a nightmare. No, it's okay. Anyhow, are you trying to get rid of this?

No, that's fine. Yeah, Andrew, thank you for calling in. Any other thing we can, anything else we can clear up here, anything else you want to talk about before we let you go? I guess I just wanted to hear just your thoughts on what sort of productivity apps, what type of implementations you could imagine for this going forward?

Well, I think, I think, where is the first design away from game? Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, design, I think that the painting stuff in here is actually really beautiful and interesting. I've seen some incredible videos of people doing VR painting and I think that's a really interesting new kind of art space. I think art and experiential stuff in general that isn't necessarily focused on like a game.

Also meetings, if you could do any kind of face tracking, a meeting would actually be pretty tall. I think once the tracking, once the face tracking gets better, I mean, these fucking cartoon avatars is like, I get it, you don't want the uncanny valley of like, I don't want it like some kind of mutation of your face like it was like, not enough polygons, but like, I do think that there's an opportunity for meeting a meeting space, but I think the headset, the rig needs to come way, way down in terms of size and complexity. And the hands and the kind of body and face and eye track, you need to get way, way, way better.

So thank you for your call. Appreciate it. Thank you. Really all over the map. Yeah. What other colors want to talk about? We have on the line. Yeah, let's see.

We got how about Eric from Charlotte? Eric from Charlotte. I talk about gaming. Oh, gaming. Eric. Eric. Eric, are you? I'm good. Are you? You Gaming, I heard. Eric. Eric, are you?

I'm good, are you? You know, I'm okay. You hear me? Yeah. Yeah, we can hear you. All right, awesome. So, Josh, you have an interview a couple of years ago with the person in charge of Uya, where she couldn't name a single game for the Uya that she wanted to play.

Yeah. I was thinking of asking a rift when the, or sorry, a vibe when the price dropped. And I realized that I couldn't think of a game that I wanted to play on the vibe. Yeah. And I'm looking into it. And there really aren't that many. Do you think that's a problem for the platform in the long term? There aren't really. I mean, I look either at there right now. I don't know if you know this about me, but I'm an extremely, I'm an extremely dedicated resident evil fan. And, uh, and you know, they had resident evil at New Biohazard for the PlayStation VR.

And I got very close to buying it. Like I really considered it. And then when I thought about like what I'd have to do to play that game in my living room, like the kind of situation that I'd be getting into, just to play like Resident Evil, it immediately kind of turned me off and I was like, you're not a fuck-dust,

I'm not gonna do it. And so I think that, you know, I think that there is a problem where, I mean, it's sort of as piggybacking on the call that we just had with VR, it's like, what is the killer app where you need to be in VR? You know, I think that there are,

it's got kind of a amusement park vibe to it right now where it's like really thrilling the first time you check it out. Really interesting. Yeah, and then you're like, okay, well I went on the roller coaster, I played, you know, whatever the game is where you throw the thing and try to knock down

the milk bottles and I went to the haunted house and now it's like, I'm ready to go home. Yeah, it's not a lot of depth. Yeah, you need, but in order to do depth, I think you just need a lot more in the way of technology right now, and they just haven't gotten it there yet. They just haven't gotten the technology.

It's just, it's good, it's not great, it's beta. It's interesting. It's interesting, but it's like, it's like interesting like a... Like a tech demo. It's like caviar, you know? It's like a whole new course. It's like caviar is like, yeah, it's a weird thing. It's like caviar. It's like, yeah, it's interesting.

Some of it's really good and that's better, but you're not going to eat it for an entire meal. You're going to, you're putting it on some crackers or something and then move on with your life. You know, like, you're not like, I'll have caviar, I'll give me a pound of caviar for dinner. Nobody does that, right? That's what I would say that VR is like caviar right now. It's expensive.

It's not for everyone. And you certainly don't want to have it a party You could have it a party, but you don't want to really want to you don't want to make it the main course. No Eric was lost there. He's dead Eric Are you okay? What do you think you how do you think about how do you say about we just throw a lot of truth at you? Well, yeah, I'm pretty much on the same page as you on that one actually What do you think you had you think about how do you say about we just threw a lot of truth at you? Well, yeah, I'm pretty much on the same page as you on that one actually. I think that as you mentioned earlier, it's too expensive for what little you can do with it. Absolutely. Which is tough because it's like then who's making a game if only 10,000 people or even 100,000 people own one. I mean, it's like a, it's like, it's like any other console.

Yeah. All right. Well, listen, Eric, thank you for your call. Really appreciate it. And we will, we're going to go to another caller, I think. Thanks again. Where do we have? I don't know.

All right. Who do we have? Who do we have in the line here, John? All right. Next up, we have Nathan from Washington. Oh, Nathan for us have Nathan from Washington. Oh, Nathan for us. Nathan for you.

Would like to talk about VR for education. Oh, Nathan laid on us. Hello, hello, are you there? Hello, hello. Hello. Yeah, hi, Nathan. Nathan, how are you? Hey, I'm well, are you?

Well, we're OK. Not great., are you? Well, we're okay. Not great. How are you? I'm living in a, in a health cap of VR, a bad VR. Yeah, we're going to be moving. It's a mediocre VR, actually. A health care VR.

I'm a middle school teacher. Okay. And I've taught history and social studies. And right now I basically just teach Photoshop to kids all day long. But I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You said your only thing interesting that I, what kind of teacher are you?

Middle, I teach middle school. And you're teaching Photoshop? Yeah, I teach Photoshop and we do some Illustrator, but mostly Photoshop. In middle school? Yeah. mostly Photoshop in middle school. Yeah, holy shit middle school is crazy now. I learned Photoshop in middle school on my free time because you're in a public school. Yeah, damn kids are so lucky.

I mean middle school. Well, I mean, not super lucky Betsy Devoss. Well, no, I mean, yeah, you got Betsy Devass breathed out your neck, but still, I mean, that's fucking amazing. All right. So you teach Photoshop and some illustrator. Go ahead. But every week we talk about an artist because a lot of my kids, they have pretty rough lives.

And a lot of them we live. I, you know, I teach about 30 minutes in North of Seattle. And a lot of my kids have never even been to Seattle. Much less an art museum. So an interesting use of VR to me would be, you know, be totally rad. There was some way to, you know, visit remotely places around the world, you know, go to the moon, go moma or whatever. I'm here. Oh, yeah, that's a cool idea. I'm a good idea. But what are you gonna do if you get every kid? You forget every kid unoccupeless? Yeah, I mean, I get the barrier to entry obviously is freaking ridiculous, but um, you know, ideally that would be awesome. I had some of those. I got kind of like the Google Cardboard rip-offs

and I had some kids um a couple of years ago and I did history. We, they had phone, if they had a phone, I gave them a YouTube link. And somebody like early 360 cameras a couple of years ago because we were studying Islam. I know red alert Islam in middle school. No, I had not learned to me. I think that's great. Unless you were like,

unless you were like all followers of Islam are bad, then in which case that would be very bad. I'm not sure. We were not doing that. Okay, good. No, but we had somebody had taken a 360 cam to Mecca in around the Kaaba, doing the Hajj, doing the pilgrimage. And so our kids were able to put on,

it was really low res, it looked really shitty though, but they were able to walk around and look around like what happens, which was pretty amazing. Right, now that's awesome. I mean, I think that sounds so cool. I think there's a little. I would have loved that. I mean, honestly, if you've ever used like,

like the Samsung Gear VR stuff, where you just throw a phone in a headset, it's actually pretty damn good. And I do think that there are applications with that where there's clearly some utility to it. You know, this, but I think it is, it's like, it's like, that thing where it's like the technology's there. But what is the right implementation? And how do you get everybody that you need to experience it, right? Like, how do you get, how do you get a class? I mean, what's the typical class? How big is it?

How many kids? 30, I mean, I have 34 kids in a room. Yeah, so I mean, what's the cost? I mean, do Samsung want to put, to give everybody a phone and a Gear VR headset? And they're probably not. Well, yeah, and that's the thing, like the technology is like 30,

and I'm not even gonna buy you dollars per class. I might be able to make a crazy case for like giving the technology, you know, say we got some like, I don't know, I could say I wrote some grant and we got all the gear for it. The problem really isn't the technology on the on our side. It's really, you know, like discovery channel or National Geographic or like a moment, like it's the content, like who's going to make the content and make There's no way to make money off of it in education, you know, there should be a grant for that like innovative, right? Well, there there are right

Are there great A bit of grant for like I don't know cool, you know technology grant for stuff, but then like I said like we don't have You know, I can get the grant for the viewing, but nobody's creating, you know, there's not a good set of like, you know, there's not a some sort of amazing set of walkthroughs of Momma, and like, I don't know if there's licensing issues with that shit anyway. So, yeah. I think it would be very interesting if it's possible. Well, at some point someone someone's gonna do it.

It's just a question of when, you know? It's a question of when and who? And, you know, you can bet somebody who Trump knows is gonna make money off of that. Yeah. Anyhow, this is super interesting, Nathan, thank you for calling. This is actually really interesting.

I mean, we're so, you know, we're beating up on this stuff, but there are clearly there are beneficial uses of, I'm not, look, I like VR. I mean, I love VR. I'm not spending my life in VR. But, you know, we need like a Wikipedia version of Google Maps full of places like that. That's user-submitted, so nobody controls what you see.

Well, I don't know. Do we want that? Yeah. Maybe. I guess like an open map. If I can map all that stuff out myself. You know, we could do that. Yeah, we just have to have the content. So, but you're right. Just like you said earlier, though, you said, you know,

games are one thing. But then, you know, I think, because I've really done very limited stuff in games with VR, but like the content side of it, like experiencing things, like being able to put your body somewhere else in the the sour world not on you know no man's guy world. Yeah yeah and I mean I mean I think that's a really cool idea it's just like you right who's who's gonna be responsible for it. And and Nathan if you find out or if you become responsible for it you need to call back and talk. Okay. I will all right thanks man. I appreciate the call. Yeah.

That's a great call. Put this down here for a second. I feel back as we were fishing a little bit. That's the end of our calls for right now. So listen, I mean, I don't know what time it is. I don't know how long it's. Oh, I have a watch in here. Okay.

So we've been going for about an hour in VR. Yeah. I definitely am feeling. Oh, I got a fish. Did you get one? Yeah. I definitely am feeling. We're fishing, by the way, everybody.

We're playing some game that's like Arctic fishing where we're really hard We're around I don't really understand the point of it We're sitting around Let me explain it. We're sitting around. Oh, I want a big fish. We're sitting around a I'm against fishing frankly. Oh, no We're sitting around an ice hole We're sitting around a gaping ice hole. And we're sticking our fishing rods in the ice hole. And we're trying to pull out fish right out of this hole.

Right out of this ice hole. We're like pulling stuff in and out of the ice hole. We're putting the fishing sticks in. We're putting the fishing sticks in. We call these fishing rods. We're jamming our rods in this ice hole. We're just rod and ice hole. And we're trying to.

And I'm putting nipples back on for the pulse of fish. We're only nips. It's great. You could tell Zuckerberg signed off on this. He was like, I love this. I love fishing. And I love any situation. We could create anything at all.

Any activity. We need a situation where you're around a nice, like a regular. This is like what I do my week is, I go to my, I go up north to Alaska where I have a huge ice hole. Get all my friends in there. All your friends in the ice hole. Get them up in there.

Get them up in the hole anyhow. I'll look out somehow you're more vulgar than I am about this. It's really incredible. What is this thing? There's some sort of device here. Click to open. Ooh, okay.

Okay. Click. Okay. If you're just listening to the audio, we're trying to make stuff work. Sorry, this is dumb, but um. Anyway. Okay.

So, all right, well, I don't know. Do we have anything else we need to talk about, Ryan? Oh, listen, we could talk about a lot, but I think we covered you need to get involved and protect the internet because otherwise, what do I have to do? Yeah, otherwise we're all gonna be doing ice fishing, lay mass, ice fishing.

Oh wait, I really sound like camera. I really think the camera actually kinda looks like Mark Zuckerberg, was that on purpose? It's like, I think I can get a dark lip. Hold on a second, hold on, hold on, hold on. I know you're showing my view, but I prefer to do this. It's like if Tim, oh my god damn,

it's weird because what happened to me? There's no feedback when you grab something. Yeah, it's really annoying. It's weird because it's like, I know the Justin Timberlake played Sean Parker in the movie. And yet here, it's like Justin Timberlake is playing the role of Mark Zuckerberg.

And also a nightmare. And also a complete nightmare person You scared dead eye that you while you talk you can't throw things in VR. It's so annoying. No, you can't you just kind of drop them Hey, they're like hey, we should we have gravity? They're like nah, fuck it. Who needs gravity? Also, they wouldn't get any kind of floor We're just passing to nothing and then reappear there. We go. So I'm looking for right there There I don't let me put that down. Yeah, mind.

I don't know, let me put that down. We have to drop everything off the face of the earth. Wait. Oh, and it just reappears. Anyway, this was fun. Yes, this is a great time. All I can say is I would not spend thousands of dollars on this experience.

We joked about always doing the show in here, and that's not gonna happen. I've decided now that I'm thinking of it, I feel like it would not be a great experience for anybody. I find it very distracting more than anything. Yeah. Very distracting. I thought it was centering me,

but now I'm reliving it. Hold on a second, wait a second. I say, I say, I say. Oh, there it is. That's what I'm looking for. Just insert that in there. Just put things in the ice hole. Just jamming different objects in the ice hole

to see what happens. Oh, sorry. Oh, I just touch Ryan, okay. Oh, that one sinks. But these balls do it. The balls stay where they really. The balls stay in the ice hole. You can put the balls in there for as long as you'd like. Well, that's our show. Thanks for the ice hole, Zuck. I think we all learned a lot about ourselves and each other. And you know, we're back VR Raves. Yeah, but we back soon with more tomorrow. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best, though.

I understand they've been dunked slowly and frankly, centrally into an ice hole by Mark Zuckerberg. And that's a real shame. you