Tomorrow - 114: Relaxing with Lewis Gordon

Episode Date: April 27, 2018

Come on. You already know what we have to discuss on this week's episode of Tomorrow. So, after getting through some thoughts about Kanye, Josh and Ryan tackle the Golden State Killer (not literally, though someone definitely did) and then shop online for things they decidedly do not need. Eventually, music and gaming writer Lewis Gordon calls in from across the pond with his thoughts on ambient games, Brian Eno, and other digital meditations. You will walk away from our show with a sense of peace and calm. Just this once. Savor it. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow, I'm your host Joshua Topolsky. Today on the podcast, we discuss Earth Lake planets, Hellraiser and the Sunken Place. I don't want to waste one minute. Let's get right into it. All right, we're back. Another tomorrow, a new tomorrow. You might say, today's tomorrow. You might say it, and if you do, you're gonna seem like like a real loser. Unless you're listening to this next week. Yeah,

which case it's last week's tomorrow. Great stuff. Great title. Fantastic idea. Glad I chose it. Really creative stuff. Anyhow, look, it's been a crazy week. I'm not going to lie. It's been. It's been more than a week. It's been bad. Bad. It's a bad week, bad stuff happening. And for once, it's like not Trump. I mean, directly, not really. No, it's the ripples of Trump. It's Trump ripples, rippling all through the atmosphere.

Anyhow, there's a lot of stuff to talk about. Ryan, you've got a list of news topics I know. I don't want to waste any time because I know you know you have to leave you have some very important things to do Yeah, we're slam banging through this. Whoa, we having caps. It's a talisized. It's underlined. We got to talk about Kanye West He wants us to but we also have to so so Kanye Lost his fucking mind on Twitter. I mean, I don't know I don't know I think his mind was lost long ago,

but someone finally gave him his password for his Twitter account back. I dropped into our Slack and I was like, what is going on? And Leah Finnegan, the brilliant Leah Finnegan, he was like, Josh, this is exactly what a manic episode looks like. And I was like, oh yeah. Like, it is.

Like, it's totally, and I know I'm not trying to armchair psychologist, you know, be an armchair psychologist or whatever. So something's wrong and you should go, why don't you tell the listener if they don't know? And I don't know how you wouldn't fucking know. But Ryan, explain what we're talking about. Kanye West went on Twitter and he just started tweeting fragments of thoughts and they were about society and creativity and his usual like two clever by half BS and everyone was eating it up and somebody even tweeted like Kanye's are greatest Marxist and are you know greatest progressive thinker. And then he immediately like a few

days ago took a real right turn and started tweeting that he loves Trump. He admires him. He likes Candace Owens conservative commentator. He believes in what Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert, has to say about like the conspiracy that is the liberal media. He tweeted of seven videos in a row, Scott Adams. I'm like, how is this going to happen? Scott Adams, who by the way, is also a documented, mentally ill person. Scott Adams had a concussion or something,

and he, after that, has been on a weird tear of not having full functions. Oh, my God, there's so many bad people. And Kanye essentially has been completely on apologetic about this support for white supremacy and Kim is on Twitter being like, guys, believe him alone. He's a free thinker, we might not agree, it's like, dude.

And you know what, it may be it's time. I got a couple things to say. One, I've never really cared for Kanye, but I've attempted to take, and I've talked about that on the show. I've attempted to tamp that down because when I see a couple things to say. One, I've never really cared for Kanye, but I've attempted to take, and I've talked about that on the show. I've attempted to tamp that down because when I see a successful black man who's extremely creative and doing taking chances,

it's like, the work doesn't have to be for me, but I think he was never like a force for bad or something. It just wasn't for me. I thought he was an egoist and he got on my nerves. But this level of like, I don't know if it's a troll or what? It's definitely marketing for an album. Like he told, he made a choice to go public about these thoughts.

Yeah, I mean, it's like, okay, so I followed this. I mean, I saw the initial ones which were like, he was talking about, you know, Donda and like whatever. I mean, I don't know if you didn't call Donda anymore of the company. Was he gonna call it Donda? It's just easy, I guess. Yeah.

Because remember, he was gonna have this whole thing that was Don De Nymor. It was like a video game. It was like a video game. Well, there was that. But nobody's been talking about his master's success and it's just like regular Kanye shit for a little bit. He's Walt Disney. Yeah, he's like the job of his generation.

And which is like, okay, fine. Sure. Sure. You know, then it's like, then it's sort of veer this, like, yeah, it's just like conspiracy. It's like the people, I don't know. And it wasn't like he was going into conspiracy, but it was like, how do you get from, George Bush doesn't care about black people,

which is like, people freaked out over, because it was like, oh, he's so outspoken about, you know, his feelings on, you know, this kind of like latent racism in America, not that long ago. And you go from that to this fucking insane tirade about how Trump is great and he's a tiger and all this bullshit.

And I honestly kind of do see how it connects though. I think he is an egoist and conspiracy theories feed narcissism, especially if you're not presented with the full set of facts or you don't really care. It makes him feel like he's in on special knowledge. He's the maverick, he's the one who's thinking differently, no matter what those thoughts are. do you know what I mean? And he's always really prided himself on that.

Yeah, I mean, I think like, plus Obama didn't meet with him, but Trump did, and he fucking loved that. If you listen to, and it's crazy that if you listen to his lyrics, if you listen to what, you know, it's like, I feel like Kanye has been consistent in like his awareness of oppression in this country and racism and has talked about it really openly. So it's crazy to me, like that he can't, I get that he, I get that he's like enamored

with Trump's like celebrity or whatever, but it's crazy to me that he can't check that with his understanding that like Trump is a fucking rate, like I just died in the wall racist, surrounds himself with racist, has literally said white supremacists are like very fine people, has literally tried to ban brown people from coming into the country. It's like, how can you not,

how can you be this, I get, it's like maybe shock value, but it doesn't feel like free thinking to me. It feels like very broken thinking. Actually, there's actually a really good, I don't know if you know, to say very smart brothers, which is an amazing, very good website,

which is now I guess part of the route. It's like a part, yeah, it's like they've joined up with the route. But anyhow, they did an article the other day that was Kanye's politics, what happens when you don't read books. And it's like actually about how Kanye is like, I don't read, and there's this weird thing,

like his mother was like, I think like an English professor or something, and he's like, but he's like, fuck books. And it's like, I do feel this is exactly it. It's like the anti-intellectual version of intellectualism. Where he's like, oh no, the truth is out there. And it's like, nah, I'm on Scott Adam's video blog. Okay, that's not where the truth is.

And you're smarter and richer than this. Like, you should know better. Like, you have the ultimate opportunity to know, and yet you fucking don't have somebody read you the book, have somebody create a movie out of the book. Like just read, so like find out what it really is. But he never, he's never handled that criticism well. Like, when people called him out for being a misogynist,

especially rather than the stuff with, like, the Taylor Swift stuff was a gray area at the beginning. But the stuff where he depicted her naked and wanting to have sex with him, like the Taylor Swift stuff was a gray area at the beginning, but the stuff where he depicted her naked and wanting to have sex with him, like people, there was a commentary that that was very rapy and he did not respond to that well. And I think he looked at that and was like, I'm being silenced.

They're not letting me be an artist. Okay, but there's a line between depicting someone in a position that is, I mean, listen, that's a piece of art. It's like, if you paint a picture of somebody in the nude, like if I painted a picture of Taylor Swift naked, but wanting to have sex with you on camera and it's like moving, but they're not moving.

They're not having sex, are they? They're just sleeping. It's like a deep fake. They're sleeping. Sure, but they're in bed nude together. Wow. And in the song, he says, I know she still wants to have sex with me. Are we all in a way in bed nude together. Wow. And in the song, he says, I know she still on set sex.

Are we all in a way in bed nude together? Josh, is that what Kanye was really saying? Josh, I'm going to make a deep fake of you and I in bed until comfortable. You are. I mean, listen, if it's good art, it's good art. I mean, I'm not saying he was right or wrong. There were a lot of people fake people nude in that bed. Whatever the case is, I think he took that criticism

that I'm giving, whether or not it's valid, and he didn't take it well. And I think that took us down a path of like, I don't care for Obama because he dissed me. And now these people are saying this. And I think he just kind of fell down an MRA hole and that takes you to our slash the Donalds. He can't be managed. That's all I know. The man can't be managed.

It's like, here's the thing. Like, Casey Johnson, our- Oh, that's right. Had an amazing treat, which is like a situation that Chris Jeter can't manage, frightens me. Yeah, that's what she's like. I'm like, very true. But like also, you know,

and then chance is like, black people don't have to be Democrats. It's like, okay, fair. Totally fair. They don't have to work with our Kelly either. They don't have to be anything, but like, check it out. The Republicans fucking hate you. Yeah. The Republicans fucking hate you. They are fucking racist.

They have always been racist. And I'm not saying all the Democrats are good, because they're definitely not. But like, look, there may be, there is like, uh, there is racism that's like, like your racist accidentally, like you don't realize like... Ignorance, versus hate. You're kind of ignorant and maybe like a little bit like you should get like a little more knowledge about things. Yeah.

But like you don't mean to be like, you know, they're different. They're different. But it's like why people who are like, like I'm not trying to make excuses. But there are definitely why people who are like, I'm racist because like I don't know any better or I didn't realize that I was being racist. We live in a racist culture. Yeah, but like, there are people who are like, I actively hate this thing and I want it to be gone.

Yeah. Like, if a Democrat is racist, usually the former, usually, very rarely the latter, like, like, the Republicans are bits like, yeah, that's what we're all about. Like, get rid of the black people. Stephen and just said, take the word racism as a badge of honor in Europe.

I mean, it's crazy. It's so anyhow, so I'm like, I'm like, Chance, I hear what you're saying, but like, I'm like with Kanye and all, it's like, dude, this is like your own. But pick any political philosophy you want. You can go be in the green party. You'll have to hear my notes on that

when it comes time to vote. But like, be in any political philosophy you want. Not seeism and fascism is not political philosophy. That's fucking terrorism. Yeah, I mean, I just don't get it. I just don't get it. I don't see how I'm not saying that Kanye has to be like a super genius or anything,

but like, I don't think he's dumb. No, I kind of don't. I mean, he makes great art. Like, I see him to just live in a bubble. The thing that's tough is like, I think Kanye is, is, I know, listen, I've always had this, there's a weird thing about Kanye, which is like, he's kind of an amazing musician

and often could be an incredible lyricist. But then sometimes, I'm like, these fucking lyrics are so stupid and infantile. And it's like, why are you destroying your own art with this dumb ass passage? But that's like, few and far between a little bit expected. He means it had it, yeah.

But now it's like, oh, you're gonna get a MAGA hat on and you're hanging out with a bunch of fucking Peter Teal, like Wack-ass fucking Republicans, yeah Peter Teal, like that's not cool. Like it's not, there's nothing cool about it. There's nothing smart about it, it just seems like sad. But even if this is a marketing stunt or like a promotional thing, we have to, as a group,

say like what will allow ourselves to be manipulated by a not manipulated by in the attention economy. And I feel like we have to not buy his stuff, don't listen to his thing, even out of morbid curiosity. Like we can't, I feel like we have to draw a line and say like this isn't the movie network. At a certain point, we can't do acts of violence in public as a way to promote a product.

Like at a certain point, we have to just refuse to be hacked like this. Wait, I gotta see this, man. Wait, I didn't see this. Did you see this John Legend thing? Oh yeah. He's texted him and Kanye like tweeted the text. Yeah, yeah.

Also, I tried to reason with him. I'm very interested in the fact that who's a green bubble here? What? Somebody's a green bubble, green bubble on the John Legend to the green bubble. I guess John Legend uses a dance. Right, that's going on.

This is a Google Pixel. No! Is this a Google Pixel? Me and John Legend uses a dance. Right, that's going on. This is a Google Pixel. No. He uses a Google Pixel? Me and John Legend use the same phone. Yeah. Oh my God. Chris, he follows up and goes, this is a great Google Pixel ad.

Oh my God, really? Are you fucking kidding me? No. Google's dying right now. I love this. I love this. John Legend is fucking great. He's amazing.

He tried. He tried his best. There's like a follow up text where he's like, well, I guess if you're posting our texts, I do have a new single out. I love you, John, and I appreciate your thoughts. I don't know what the beginning of this is, but as you know what you say really mean

to somebody to your fans, this is John Legend talking to Kanye. They are loyal to you in respect to your opinion. So many people who love, who love you feel so betrayed right now because they know the harm that Trump's policies cause, especially to people of color. Don't let this be part of your legacy. You're the greatest artist or generation.

In which Kanye responds, I love you, John, and I appreciate your thoughts. You bringing up my fans or my legacy is a tactic based on fear used to manipulate my free thought. And then John says, think freely. Think with empathy and context too. Your words and actions have consequences, much love. And since you're posting text,

let me add that I have a new single out, ha ha. And then Kanye says, ha ha, crying smile the face, I love you, John. It's like, no, I think here's my take. No, that's a little fun for me. Okay, so here's a little whimsical for what's happening. Okay, I'm gonna do it.

I'm gonna do it. I've watched Kanye on Twitter now. And now I've seen a personal interaction between him and John Legend, another copixel user, now I've seen a personal interaction between him and John Legend, another co-pixel user who I now have a- The pixel brotherhood. From the pixel brotherhood. A bond that goes deep. I'm gonna do it at some popular. People who don't want me to do it, but I'm gonna say it. I'm gonna play armchair psychologist.

He's so me fucking wrong with him. Like, this is an actual episode of some type. Like, the way he responds to him is like, you're trying, it's like he's like, you're trying to like, destroy my, manipulate my free thought. It's like, I don't think that's what John Legend is saying to you. And some kind of psychosis, I don't know if he's bipolar or not, but I do know that.

I'm not gonna give you the exact diagnosis, but I'm saying that this, that's, that's, go, go get help. That response doesn't, isn't like, hey man, thanks, I appreciate the thoughts, you know, I gotta do my thing, I hear'm saying that this, that's where it's going. Go get help. That response doesn't, isn't like, hey man, thanks, I appreciate the thoughts, I gotta do my thing, I hear what you're saying, but like I'm just being me, that would be a response that would make sense,

but you're bringing up my fans or my legacy is a tactic based on fear used to manipulate my free thought, is the kind of thing that a person who is not well would say when a friend says, hey, I'm worried about you. Yeah. Right? And so, I feel bad. It's like, listen, we wrote this thing about a long, long time ago during Kanye's last

very public episode when he canceled his shows or whatever. And it was about that like Kanye is like a human being. And we tend to treat celebrities We put them in this bubble that actually like really harms them right? I mean, I think and I think you look at like a lot of You know, we spoke about Mariah and we talked about this right We talked about this recently and and this is a place where it's like people around him need to help him I really like don't know what the deals

I don't think and I'm not gonna tell Kim what to do with her husband or whatever, but her tweets being like, like Kanye do his thing, it's like, I mean, maybe that's it. She seems like his manager and whoever was like, Kanye, no. And he was like, fuck you, you're fired. I mean, like, maybe externally, she's like, I'm with Kanye, like, let him do his thing, but hopefully, I hope internally, somebody's like,

hey, this doesn't seem like, you don't seem like, well, this seems erratic, and and people are like really upset about it. I don't want to make everything women of color's work, but I do think that Beyonce could fix this if she put her mind to the preion. I don't think Beyonce's like, get the fuck out of my face with this shit. I feel like she could swoop in and be like Kanye. Come with me. I think Beyonce is like, let me, how can I manipulate myself to be as far away

from this situation as humanly possible? I mean, and she's right. Yeah. So anyhow, so that's the Kanye situation. That's the Kanye of it. It's very sad and upsetting and not funny. Like, I'll say, I don't know, he tweeted last time, he was like, does this look like the sunken place,

which I think was like a picture of his hallways. And it did. And I was like, actually like in my recollection of the film like kind of. Yeah. I mean like there's like like corridors and shit. And like I mean not I don't know like all of the parts of the sun, I know the sunken place is a state of mind also,

but like there are things in that movie where the bad shit goes down that it kind of reminds me of. Yeah, pretty much exactly like the sunken place. I long for the days. I actually tweeted about this recently, like, the Kanye bed tweet. I don't know if you remember. Listen, Kanye and Rihanna had the best Twitter accounts of all of Twitter at one point. I never remember Rihanna's account at all.

Oh my God, Rihanna has the best tweets. Go to Rihanna's tweets from 2009 to 2011. They're insane. She starts fights with Cicera. At one point, she just tweeted, fuck you, Satan, fuck you right off or whatever. It's amazing.

He also had amazing tweets. But at a certain point, like, it's not, we don't need to do it for the vine. This is, I'm showing Ryan. I'm showing Ryan, because I retweeted in, I remembered it, yeah, in October. I was like, oh, remember when Kanye was like, I'm trying to figure out what kind of,

it's like, I've been trying to figure out the bed design for the master bedroom at our Hidden Hills compound. And he drew like two pictures of beds. Just beds. Just literally, it's like a bed frame with a mattress and pillows. Well, he used to live tweet his like rug shopping and like what, he was gonna purchase rug lies?

Wow, this tweet actually got a surprising amount of engagement, I'm just now seen. Anyhow, listen, Kanye, if you're listening, and I think you probably are, because I know you listen to all the tomorrow episodes, you're a great artist. You're the greatest artist of our generation, as John Legend says.

I mean, you're up there. You're pretty good. You're up there. Top 10. Be well, curly-rejunct. Take care of yourself. Trump's a fucking bozo and a clown. You should not get near him. You're better than that. Hillary 2020.

Chappo. Fight me. Please don't ask me, Chappo. Please. Bring it Hillary 2020. You read our comic. Anyhow, let's move on. All right. All right. All right. So I've got good news. Yeah. That's not true.

Uh, I've got no K news hit me. They arrested the Golden Seed killer. That's weird. It's almost like yes, it is good news, but is it, but not it's like rape 60 people? Like, was that many? Yeah. I killed 10 confirmed. Now we're linking it to other cases. people. Yeah, like, is that many? Yeah, I killed 10 confirmed. Now we're linking it to other cases.

So ex cops, you know, you knew what to do. You know how to get away. It's fucking dark, but what's really crazy, what's really crazy is that he was caught. Yes. Because of the book that Pat Noswald's wife wrote about him. Michelle McNamara.

Michelle McNamara. Michelle McNamara. We had her on How is Your Week talking about this. It's crazy. We had an interview with her and she was so passionate. And I remember thinking like, how have I never heard of this case before? It's crazy. And by the way, as a man who's married to a woman

who's very, very interested in murder and unsolved murders, I feel like a real, like I understand a lot about how people get obsessed with these things. And I think it's so interesting that, I mean, it's very sad, obviously, because she died. Oh, yeah. She passed away. She had a bad poor reaction to a drug a couple of years ago. I'm gonna sleep.

Yes. And she was three-fourths of a way through a book about this case, which is the book that ultimately, I think, a lot of it led to. Yeah, the police will never say that, but it's not coincidental that the book was just finished by her collaborators and released, and then they finally put the pieces together and arrested him. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Anyhow, I mean, it's a dark story. I mean, it's great to have caught him.

It would have been better to have caught this guy before he fucking raped a couple of people. Well, you know how he got, he was originally kicked out of the police or he forced to resign because they caught him shoplifting hammers and dog repellent and like chemicals from hardware store in the 70s and they did no follow up. We've all been there. And Patent said on, on, I don't know if it was Seth Meyers or what, what show he was on, but he was like, it's as if he went to the murder store And they got him buying murder stuff and they said hey give us a badge

They're like we don't like it. I don't think we're gonna cut this out We did a while you're getting it and we're not gonna find out But we tell you nothing to do with the string of murders in our jurisdiction It's like it's like how was that was the victim killed? Oh, they were like a the string of murders in our jurisdiction. It's like, that was the victim killed. They were like strangled with rope from a hardware store and a bludgeon with this hammer from this hardware store. 70s were fun.

It's a great, I'll tell you what, hey, what a heyday of 60s and 70s for if you're a fucking killer. Oh yeah. You can get away with anything. Anything. I mean, do you understand what LSD? Think about what the fuck was going on in this country from like, everything.

Like in the 40s, the 50s, the 60s, the 60s is having you couldn't track anything you couldn't call anybody There's no internet. There was no they didn't have basically clues were like footprints credit cards Basically were non-existent. They didn't know if you called people you could be like a trace of golf call back a number You didn't get it any time. That's it. It's gone. It's gone. Ring, ring. Oh, I'm on my way there. I'm just getting out of the shower. Ring, ring. Hello. Click.

Oh, they're gone. Well, God shot residue with literally the bullet. Not with the only residue they could find. No idea. You know, you'd have to actually have a photo of a person murdering someone to be able to prove it. Like who frame Roger Rabbit style? Yeah.

It's insane. It's crazy. I mean, all right. What else is in the news? It's very interesting, but depressing story. So not really, I'm pretty happy. I was actually extremely interested in this story about how teens are now vaping. Which we know.

But based on the trends that teens were heavily influenced to smoke by movies, there's a piece on the outline about how they've been influenced to vape because of vines and like internet content about vaping. Well, it's like, listen, it's like cigarettes in popular culture. Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, listen, it's like cigarettes in popular culture. You know, I mean, it's the same idea, right? And popular culture is on the internet now.

That's where the shit goes down. I guess, I just, I mean, I'm from that generation that like, it's just going away. It's just going away and we didn't have vaping. Same number of words, say it starts with a V. Yeah, I mean, to me makes sense. I mean, I think vaping is obviously, you know, we're going to learn, I believe.

It's a big mess and terrible for you. We're going to learn that vaping is actually somehow more deadly than cigarettes. We don't know yet. It gives you extra cancer. But maybe it's not. What if it's not? What if vaping's just better for you?

I mean, nicotine's not good for you. Isn't it though? Is it bad for you? I mean, do we have any proof? Our synogen in it. It just you. If it does it? Yeah. Oh, that doesn't sound good. I thought it't it though? Is it bad for you? I mean, do we even improve our synogen in it? It just you. Who does it? Yeah.

Oh, and that doesn't sound good. I thought it's only if you burn it. I know if you ingest it. You can, I mean, if you're doing nicotine gum, you're doing damage. Really? So you're saying there is no, like I can't just do nicotine and get out of jail for you.

I think the only thing you get out of nicotine is that it helps prevent Alzheimer's. But it's one of those like a lawn chair of the Titanic thing. Like you don't want to hit a iceberg just so long. It's like, here's the good news. Yeah, you it helps prevent Alzheimer's. But it's one of the like lawn chair of the Titanic thing. Like, you don't want to hit a iceberg just so long. It's like, here's the good news. Yeah, you don't have Alzheimer's. But you have, it's super cancer and heart disease.

You died of lung cancer. But you're gonna be of clear minds with the whole thing. You're gonna know everything about it. You'll remember every detail of this horrible journey to your coffin. And that you're telling this to a 40 year old and millennial pan. Yeah.

It's like, I started because of mine. Yeah. Vaping's very dark. Very dark. I don't, I've never vaped. I mean, I've vaped some weed, I think. I've vaped. Is that the way to do it?

Yeah. Do you vaped weed? Yeah, or an edible? You're not smoke weed, do you? No, I don't smoke it. I mean, I have smoked it in college, but it's a big mess, so I would just smoke weed. Are you, when you could vape it?

I smoked some weed recently and I gotta say, it was pretty enjoyable. Yeah, I like an edible. I like a Pax. I don you could vape it. I smoked some weed recently and I got to say it was pretty enjoyable. Yeah, I like an edible. I like a packs. I don't fuck with an edible. Too risky. Yeah, edible. I mean, you know, my recent history, edible is you really are playing with fire. I think it's very risky. I wouldn't do it. All right, speaking of deliveries, things I have delivered to my apartment, like edibles, we've reached peak delivery, which is an interesting piece that was posted about how we're getting everything delivered and we need to cut it the fuck out. You know, honestly, it's crazy because I do,

I mean, I do like shopping on the internet. Amazon Prime has made it so easy to order. I don't think we've talked about this before, but it's made it so painfully easy to get things that are like, I'm like, I need some matches. I think I'll just get some on Amazon Prime. It's like, I'm like, I need some matches. I think I'll just get some on Amazon Prime. It's like the matches can be purchased at any grocery store.

Amazon suggested that I purchase this liquid that was full of vitamins that you put on your eyebrows, and I was super drunk and I was like, I was like, let's see what this is. It's been $30 on eyebrow goo. Wait a second, hold on. I get a lot of questions here. Let me unpack this.

Let's do it. So the vitamins are for your body or for your eyebrows. I think they're supposed to be for your eyebrows. Your eyebrows are looking pretty good. I've always had good eyebrows, so I don't know what's strong eyebrows. Yeah, I don't know what possessed me to need it. Well, at any rate, so you don't know if they're nutrients that it's not for your entire life.

No idea. No idea of being. It's not like a multivitamin, but you put it on your eyebrows. No. So it's just something, it's like a gel that you use a brush. It says it'll make it grow. And I was like, let's see. Why would you want it?

I was drunk and just sitting on my phone. You're very thick. Thanks. Why would you want them to grow more? I have no fucking job. It's a weird idea. Anyway, stuff like that shows up to my apartment regularly. It's very unusual.

And I wouldn't have carried that out of a store. It's very unusual. Or I'll buy a comic book that like, I'm never gonna read like a graphic novel that I'm never gonna read. Just because I'm like, I wanna support this artist. Oh hold on, the Supreme Hellraiser drop is out today. It's what I've been waiting for.

It's the first ever Supreme item I want. Oh, let me see. It's Supreme Ax Hellraiser. I want let me see. It's supreme X hell razor I want the Korean knockoffs of supreme those looks so Much better. Can you see that? Oh wow Are you gonna buy this I'm gonna buy I want to see if I get the shorts you get the oh it looked like a kilt I thought it was a no where is it wait get the trench coat the denim I, if you want. If the voter doesn't know what this looks like, it is a fundraiser on your shirt.

This is what I want. Am I a larger and extra large? It looks like a votive candle of hell-raiser. How much is this? This is a good value. Is it? I think this is eyebrow serum territory. Let me ask you a question.

Am I a large and supreme or an extra large? Hmm, that's tough. How baggy do you want it to fit? Hmm, your talls, that's what makes it tough. I'm six four. Now most of my clothes are extra large. Yeah, I always get the extra large dress in case, because I'll hemshit down, but not supreme yourself.

Yeah, you can't hemshit. No, I'm not hemming that. This is such a waste of money. Yeah, this is eyebrow territory. Hold on, I gotta go back. What is eyebrow territory? This is your eyebrow gel. This is the Josh version of buying eyebrow items. What is this? It's a sweater, acrylic with

hell razor, jacquered graphic on chest and back. It's pretty good. I'm gonna put it, I'm gonna put it in my cart for now. Okay, I've never, I've never wanted to buy anything from Supreme. And here I am on this Supreme website cart for now. Okay, I've never wanted to buy anything from Supreme. And here I am on the Supreme website, checking out some Hellraiser, a T-shirt for 128 feels like not a great value. I think I'm gonna have to buy this. Well listen, unfortunately I took a break from news

to buy my first ever Supreme item, the Hellraiser sweater, which is money well spent, I think. Ryan, anything else that we should know about the week, any other important items that has occurred? There's an interesting piece on that outline about K-pop being a propaganda tool between North and South Korea that I think is true. It's a really interesting story.

Very good. So go read that, but I have nothing to add to that, except I love K-pop. You know, I mean, you want to support Queen Hayuna. All right, good. Well, listen, this is a great, great experience. I really enjoyed it. Oh, I could get the, I could get the Hellraiser skateboard,

Hellraiser Supreme skateboard. It seems like a good investment, $66. I mean, it's like, I feel like I'm gonna be able to resell that pretty quickly. I mean, at some point Zelda's gonna need a skateboard. She's gonna need to ride or die. So, Hellraiser. All right, well, Ryan, we gotta, we gotta take a break.

This is a wonderful news session, I really enjoyed it, but then we gotta get into our interview with the very talented and also very British writer, Louis Gordon, so we'll be right back. The MIT Press and MIT Sloan Management Review have partnered in a series of books that deliver expert insights and sharply tuned advice on navigating the unprecedented changes of the digital world. What the digital future holds discusses topics including how big data can inform hiring decisions, whether new communications technologies are empowering workers or unleashing organizational chaos,

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My guest today is a very talented writer who's just on a piece for the outline which you probably have read. And if you haven't, you should about the rise of ambient video games. I'm of course talking about the very British Lewis Gordon Lewis. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me Josh. Are you do people do people describe who's very British or just do they think you're talking about the first time that so that happens?

Like a regular about a British. I would say I'm no more and no less. Really, I can't really do that. I just learned prior to us beginning this recording that Lewis has moved to Glasgow, which is in Scotland. And I was telling him about how I DJed there when I had a DJing career and he doesn't believe me, which is fine.

And I think my tone sounded sarcastic and I can understand why he would feel that way. But anyhow, Louis, you wrote this story for us, which I find, I feel deeply connected to. And I don't know that it necessarily applies to the concept of ambient video games, but then I do want to actually kind of understand your perspective on that,

but I am a big fan of, I'm a very, I don't like group video games, but then I do want to actually kind of understand your perspective on that, but I am a big fan of. I'm a very, I don't like group video games. I don't like games where you compete against other people or kill other people. I mean, I like games where you kill other people, but only on your own. And so I love to, one of my favorite times in my life was playing Fallout 3. I'm sure you're from my Fallout 3, I think. Do you mention that I can't remember if you do? And walking around the expansive Fallout 3, which was a massive map, certainly for the time, and just not doing anything, just kind of exploring, you know, just checking out the scenery. And I would go into structures and just like look at views, just like find like beautiful views, and just kind of admire

them. And so I feel like what you're talking about in this piece, it may not be exactly what I was doing because Fallout is not, it's clearly not, and there's a lack of ambience to a lot of it, I mean, the sense that it is very in your face. But there's something about the stillness and vastness of these games to me that I find just unbelievably satisfying. And so anyhow, so I felt like reading this piece, you know, and I thought about, you know, sort of what you're describing, and there's a kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of

kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of

kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of and what you're writing about. But can you tell us something that's really un-initiated? If nobody has read this story, can you give me a little bit of a snapshot of what ambient video games are to you? I think what I was trying to say with the pieces is that I'm not saying ambient video games are necessarily a genre, although there are certainly some examples. And I think Proteus is probably the best example

in the piece of an ambient video game. But I was trying to think about how they function and why we play particular video games. And I was looking at Japanese ambient music that emerged in the 1980s in this kind of crazy technological time, this kind of crazy growth of wealth in the country, which is also the same time that video games emerged. I was trying to think about the context in which they emerged from, and about how they function, and about trying to draw some similarities between the two. So I recently got into, or not recently, a bit of last kind of three or four years, have been listening to an artist called

Hiroshi Yoshimura, who was a Japanese ambient artist. And he released an album called Green in 1986, which is this incredible kind of crystalline, still record that he created using a synthesizer called Yamaha DX7. Yes, classic. Extremely famous synthesizer. Absolutely. On many, many famous 80s records all over.

Yeah. And he integrated lots of field recordings into that record. And what you have is this incredible snapshot of a kind of natural landscape. You can kind of hear the drip of water, you can hear the wind whistling through the trees. And recently I've been playing Zelda Breath of the Wild, which has a lot of those kind of, it creates or attempts to create the same kind of image. And in the same way that Hiroshi Yoshimura,

when you put that record on, or when I put that record on, it puts you in this incredibly calm, relaxing, almost kind of meditative state. There are particular sections of Breath of the Wild, along with some of the other games that I mentioned that put you in a similarly calm kind of state and give you a kind of like a moment to reflect or decompress. And that to you is the sums up the concept of the ambient video game. Are there either moments or a design inherent in a game

that's meant to feel, I mean, relaxing? Yeah, I mean, it is relaxing. Certainly relaxing. I think what ambient music is incredibly good at. And what particularly the Japanese ambient music is incredibly good at. So artists like Hiroshi Yoshimura or Satoshi Asakawa, is there incredibly good at creating a sound world that you feel like you can step into.

And video games, if they're one of the few things that they're very good at, is creating a world or an atmosphere that you can step into. And when you play them, or when you put an ambient record on as well, it's almost like putting another layer of reality onto your own, which kind of makes it slightly more tolerable if you like. Yeah, I mean, I think that's interesting. I mean, you talk about Brian Eno and the piece and you talk about music for airports. And I mean, obviously when people think of ambient music, they immediately go to Eno. But there was this kind of concept.

I mean, his concept was very much, at least in some phases of his career of music as a kind of transformative element in a space, right, an element that was sort of there, but not there, but could have, you know, sort of a quality of being, of altering your experience in that space, but not necessarily, like, you know, hitting you over the head with it. The game idea is interesting, though, because you're really talking about, these are very designed experiences, right? And Breath of the Wild, which I've played a bit,

is ultimately there's also, as you're kind of like ambiently wandering, you also, you come across these weird creatures that you have to kill with your bow and arrow, or with, I mean, I'm killing them. I don't know what other people are doing with them. Maybe you can just avoid them. Like, I don't know, but in my experience, right?

So the game is not designed expressly for that, but there is a poetry to it, a kind of stillness to it that you're referencing here, that you're kind of like thinking about as you, you here, that you're kind of thinking about as you, you know, when you wrote this piece. But the, but I wonder, do you think this is, I mean, do you think that there is a direct line between, you know, let's say the music of Brian, you know, and this kind of, this kind of art appearing in a game like the New Zelda game, or is it, you know, as I was talking about

with Walking Round Fallout, like you can create the experience you're describing very easily by wandering off into a field, you know, and that doesn't seem like it's on purpose necessarily. No, which is why I kind of hesitant to call Andy Ambient video games a genre in themselves. They certainly have these elements that function in an ambient way. I think when, as I've played more of Breath of the Wild, you're right, there are obvious moments where you have to kill things, and there are these kind of like quite stressful moments. It's boss battles, you had to face this thing.

It's boss battles and there's like a world, which definitely doesn't fit into this conversation at all. It's a lot of pleasant to be in. As I played more of it, I would find myself not doing what the game would ask me and going and trying to find a meadow or a forest. These kind of situations where you have this kind of interplay of the light and the sound, and there's not necessarily much to do,

but it puts you into this kind of state of mind. In the same way that I put an ambience record on to, it might be to work or to relax or something like that. I seek out these experiences within this particular game and within other games, the function in the same way that allow me to take a moment of reflection or something like that. I mean, so that's interesting to me because, you know, it's clear that there is a, there is a direction that the game wants you to take. This is true in the Fallout games. Sure.

That there is a obvious direction that they want you to take to fight things, to battle, to win or whatever, but you can go off on these sort of explorations, which is, to me is a great part of these games. Like I got the new Far Cry, which I saw you tweeting about, and I wanna talk about it a little bit. I got the new Far Cry game, and honestly, what I really wanna do is just kinda see what's there.

You know, I don't know that I wanna engage necessarily. I mean, I will engage, you know, but I wonder how much it's a kind of a factor of two things that are happening. One is like, I feel like the external world feels particularly stressful right now. And in fact, like when I think about playing a game often at the end of a day, I'll think like, I'm going to play, you know, let's say Far Cry 5 or I haven't finished Horizon Zero Dawn, which has a ton of these moments.

I mean, Horizon Zero Dawn is literally just chock full of walking and exploring and not really doing much of anything, and it's so beautiful. But is it a product of our modern world? So there's two things here. One is, we live in an incredibly stressful time when the external world seems particularly fraught

and upsetting. And the second is that games can now be expansive, right? They can have distance that games of the past didn't. And I wonder how much, when you're doing this exploration, when you're walking around, does it ever feel to you like, is the ultimate escape here really about doing nothing? And is that what your ultimate, your brain is ultimately after, is to do nothing?

Possibly. I don't know. Well, it's great talking to you. When you do this, thank you so much. No, I mean, like, does it, you know what I'm saying? Like, does it seem like, you know, the game's not asking you to do this, but you are saying, I don't want to play the game. No, I think, well, when you, I mean, so I work on my computer all day. And my day consists of the screen and it consists of an internet browser

with probably 15 to 20 tabs open at any one moment with numerous other windows open as well. And there is this kind of work environment, which is a overstimulating noisy in a kind of visual sense to be able to step into these worlds and not necessarily follow what the game wants you to do, is one of the rare moments where you have a screen filled with just one thing, and allows you to focus on one thing and find maybe a piece in that possibly. And so the love of this,

it seems like for you is directly related to your interest in electronic music, right? I mean, do you feel this? Is it, was it something like, I mean, clearly you're interested in ambient music and electronic music generally? Was it something that you realized, do you think you realized because of that interest

with did one inform the other? I mean, did you get interested in games like this because of your interest in ambient music or the other way around or explain how that unfolded? I think playing Breath of the Wild and realizing that it had the same effect on me that these ambient records did and then retrospectively thinking about particular video games where I'd also had that experience as well. Going back and thinking about how I played No Man's Sky,

which is a game where you just kind of explore this infinite universe, this kind of procedurally generated universe. And there's really not much to do apart from kind of survive and just explore. And there's a kind of peace and there's also a relief when you find a good planet in that game. What's a good planet? A good planet is one that looks like a fight. Really?

There's a lot of hostile planets in that game. Yeah. What you think is, you think for you and Nomean's guy a good planet is one that reminds you of the planet you're on. Absolutely. Why is that? I mean, it's probably quite a natural thing. When you find a planet with an abundance of life on it, and when you find a planet with

grass and trees and those kind of things, I guess, remind you of home. When you've been to 15 planets prior to it, which are these rocky, gassy, horrible places to be, when you stumble upon one that reminds you of Earth, there is definitely a sense of relief and a calming experience. That's interesting. I mean, it's interesting because to me, it seems like the opportunity here is escape. And yet in a place like No Man's Sky where you have limitless amounts of worlds to travel to with all sorts of alien flora and fauna, you tend to be interested in the ones that are most like Earth and most familiar.

Yeah, I suggest a very deep flaw within your person. I think we need to have some suggestions. Check you out immediately. What if you talk up? No, it's interesting though. I mean, I just, I feel like, no, I guess there is something to it, you know, I think one of the things I like about wandering around, well, I don't know.

I mean, I'll go say, I'll be right, fall out, fall out up again, but this is true for like, far, all the far cry games that I've ever played. It, now those are, of course, very realistic, right? And you're on Earth, so it's not an issue. I do find no man's guy to be aggravating. I mean, when I play that game, it's like, what am I doing?

Like, the fact that there is nothing really to do is kind of annoying. You know, like, there is no seeming end to it that I'm not trying to, you know, I'm not supposed to be, like I'm not trying to, you know, I'm not supposed to be, like, I'm not trying to accomplish anything, you know? It's very strange. And so I just, I find that kind of exasperating, like sort of agitating.

In fact, I've only played No Man's Sky for maybe a handful of a couple of hours or something because I'm just like, what's the point, you know? And yet, and yet, when I'm in a game where there is a point, my instinct is to avoid it. You know, is to walk. It's to walk away from it. What does it say about me as a person? Can you tell me, your professional writer?

What does it say about you as a person? Yes, what do you think? Give me a thought, just have it, I'll tell you how I feel about you. Do you think that there's something wrong with me that when given a task I choose to not do it but in a situation where there's no task whatsoever I get agitated and I stop playing. You sound like you have a problem with authority possibly. What is it? I love authority or I hate it. Maybe you hate that. That's true. That's exactly right. That's why I found it the outside because there's no no no higher

power to answer to here. So all right so listen so let's shift gears for a second so so you tell me about I mean are you how avid of a gamer are you now I mean like because playing Breath of the Wild is is and wandering around there is is I would say like I don't know I feel like the switch is very popular and a lot of people I know who are non-gamers or not intensely into gaming will play a game like Zeld on the Switch. What are you intensely into gaming? I have a long relationship with gaming. I grew up playing lots of online shooters.

I think I was in a clan on a game called Counter Strike for a little while. A clan. A clan. That's like a group that does a battle. It's like a group battle. Absolutely. It's like organizing an online capacity

and a range to meet up and do you get out with other teams? Oh, so you like those games where it's confrontational? I certainly, I used to play a lot of them. I think I'm probably, well, I mean, I don't play any of those games now, actually. But I play a lot of games. I think I'm civility you in that I tend to only play really play single player games and that's where I derive the most enjoyment from it. Have you played the new Far Cry? Let's just get into it.

No, I have not played the new Far Cry. I haven't. And why not? I haven't got ran to it. Time is a factor. It looks like an interesting missed opportunity of a game to potentially say something interesting. Yeah, and it looks like the designers and writers have kind of failed on that kind. It's I'll tell you this. To me, I mean, it's a

total failure in the sense that it seems like it could say something but it doesn't say anything at all. Like if you're looking for an I like plots in games. Like I actually like stories. And so I'm very interested in a good story. And I think that it's like, the game is still terrifying because the villains are Americans and Americans are, I'm sure you know, this is your British, but Americans are by and large terrifying,

particularly the idea of some kind of rural cult, these are the gun-toting Americans that you've heard about, which I'm sure you're terrified of, and thinking about constantly. But they'd be more terrifying if they were the thing that they seem like they are, which is the kind of people that you, it's like the Trump, you know, these, some of these like really, you know, basically the Nazi Trump base

or whatever in America. Which is kind of what everybody thought they were going to be. You know, there's a bunch of like alt-right dudes. They're basically like, well, what if they were gamer-gate, you know, out in the woods, right? You spit what they all right is. That's terrifying.

That's fucking absolutely terrifying because it's so real. It's so ripped from the headlines. Yeah. But, but, you know, my guess is somebody yet, is it Ubisoft? Is that who makes? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like they were like, well, we don't want a, we want game regate to still buy the game. You know, they're like, we don't want all these guys to not play far Cry where you can like shoot the fuck out of somebody as we do. Yeah, yeah.

And Joey's doing. And so they just did this really half-ass version of storyline. But I will say, you know, the Far Cry villains have always been quite good. And I don't like what you know, I'm not going to get into the details about these particular villains. But you know, I think that there's nothing terrifying just about uh... uh... i'm american with a gun because it seems so very real you know when you don't i mean i assume like uh... i don't know if you can understand that

you know i and i don't know you know but i do think like there's great story telling it to happen and and i'm not sure that it's that's happened in far cry five did you play far cry four i haven't played i played the start of Far Cry 4. I think, have you played Far Cry 2? I think that's probably my favorite of the series. Is Far Cry 2 the game where your weapons can jam?

Do we, did you write something about this? Or did I read something about this recently somewhere? Did we publish something about it? I have written about the game. I'm going to lose my mind if we did. I've written about it in the past. So you can have weapons, Jam. You also have malaria throughout the game, which can kind of crop up at any point and kind of like blurs your vision. Can you die from it?

And makes you die from malaria? I think you can actually in the game and you have to inject yourself with this medicine. The Far Cry 2 is incredible in that it gives you this kind of intensely hostile environment and when a lot of first-person shooters are about empowering the player, Far Cry 2 kind of disempowers the player, and D glamorises the violence that you're taking part in, which I'm not sure the other Far Cry game is. You make this seem bad. I do, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like you feel like you shouldn't be killing people on Far Cry 2. Yeah, I think so, and you're plunked into this conflict happening in an unnamed

West African state, and all your actions do is exacerbate the situation. But all you can do is shoot people as well. So you have this kind of spiral of violence and chaos, which you begin to be a shifty. It sounds nightmarish and also amazing and I'm surprised that to hear such a glowing assessment of it. I mean, I, you know, for me, it's hard to find time to play any game at all, but that does make me kind of interested because it is, I mean, so it is insane that, you know, for me, it's hard to find time to play any game at all, but that does make me kind of interested because it is, I mean, so it is insane that all of all of video games are just walking around with some type of weapon. I mean, the vast majority of them is like, you could do anything in this world, but what you're actually going to do is you're just going to hold a sword or a gun and use it as much as possible. I mean, I get that it's this kind of weird wish fulfillment

You know, I mean, I get that it's this kind of weird like wish fulfillment Where you're you know this kind of strange situation where you are Playing out something that you don't get to play out in another in any other context But you know, which is good. I think ultimately, but um, but yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Like that makes me very curious because what is it like to play a game where it doesn't feel like you should be shooting everybody? I don't think I've had that experience. What when you when you when you have a gun. Yeah, well, like I'm not like when I have a gun, I'm not like I shouldn't shoot these people. I'm just like,

I definitely should shoot everybody. Absolutely. That was like I never feel I'm not feeling remorse for the the people that I kill in Far Cry 5. I mean, I'm like, you know, they had to be put down. They were animals, animal cultists that had to be put down. And I'm doing my job as a vague, some type of vague law enforcement person. All right, let's switch gears for a second. So you're obviously invested and interested in these

in games that are left of center that are not like, I mean, clearly we're taking a Far Cry, but, but, you know, you talk about some of this stuff in the piece you wrote for us, but like, what are game, what are, is there a new, and I think this is, and I'll just say, I guess I'm saying this

and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. I think there's a new genre game emerging, like Gone Home, did you play Gone Home? Yes, I did. Which is like not a game in the sense that we think of them, right? It's like, it is a story that you play, but I think that's also not doing it,

like not doing it justice because they are, they're more than like a story that you play, you know, but there is something where it's like there are games that now put you inside a universe for reasons that are not just to rack up points, essentially. And I'm curious, if you, if there are, are there games that are either that have come out, that are coming out, that you think are pioneering something in terms of a new way that we play, because I'm trying to figure out what's the next thing. I think we understand what games can be now. But is there a genre, or is there a type of game, or a game specifically, that you're

looking at and thinking this is this is changing the art form? So I mean I suppose going on from what you're thinking about Gone Home there is a video game still haven't figured out how to effectively tell stories I don't think I don't think, and effectively tell, kind of emotionally resonant dramatic stories. And I think gone home is a recent example that attempted to do that and got pretty close. I think they're kind of broadly within the same genre. There's a game called Firewatch. Did you play Firewatch?

Oh, yeah, I did play Firewatch, which was kind of interesting, weirdly unsatisfying game. But it's fun to play, but weirdly unsatisfying. Like, I mean, I think what Firewatch did incredibly well was Firewatch gave you a dialogue system, and a kind of dramatic call that possibly hasn't been done in video games before. You have dialogues in lots of other games, you have dialogue systems in kind which is very binary in its moral consequence. Whereas Firewatch did away with all of that and left this grey, murky area of action and consequence and you didn't really know what it meant when you made a

particular decision but it just propelled the story in a particular way or a particular character arc within the story and it also told a really kind of interesting story about a man getting over the kind of loss of his wife. Which stories like that in video games are rare. There's another game called Kentucky Route Zero. Have you played that? So I started playing it. I didn't get very far, but I was very interested in it. And you know, if you could avoid talking about it without spoilers,

I'm curious to know like what is the, you know, what is the draw of that game? So that game is, I'm curious to know what is the draw of that game. So that game is, it's almost a point in click adventure game in the style of the early 90s, but delivered with this beautiful, stark art style. And it's another game in which one of the primary modes of interaction is through dialogue systems, and it's another game again, where the consequences of your choices

with the most dialogue systems are never made clear, or they're never telegraphed in an obvious way. And they've been making these games since, I think the first one came out in 2013, and they're gearing up to release the final act of a five-act arc this year. But it's this incredible kind of look, kind of debt and politics and capitalism in America, which I kind of, where many of you video games fail to kind of stand up to kind of the best examples of film or literature storytelling. I think this is one of the few instances

where it really does. Well, I'm going to have to play it. Again, playing the name is like a job, though. It's like another job, and I have a job. It's like, well, it's like work. That's why I like to wander. Honestly, the biggest problem is you run into an enemy and then you've got to fight you know absolutely and we just but then it's but then on the other hand on the other hand if I don't run into enemies I'm unhappy what does it say about me what is it what am I what is happening to me you know we've got to wrap up it's very late I'm already 25 years past my very very tired Hesitope is about what is the in your opinion of like essays on? Is the game?

Do you believe getting back to the end of the year? They have an easy and coming out. Is this a genre that we get to? Lans games into the games. Like do you think that I know it's out of genre? I'm a bit featuring. I know you say it's out of genre. But do you think that these moments?

Is it becoming more commonplace? There's that to onto this. Is it becoming more commonplace? There's a latch onto this. There's another game called Abzu where you are swimming through this kind of pristine oceanic environment. And there are these points where you can, you find these statues and you can go, you can swim over and you can sit on them and you meditate. It allows you then to flick between the different fish and it asks you to just kind of exist in that space. There's another game called Breathe, which is less a video game, although it's made by a video game creator who or designer who worked on the Assassin's Creed franchise, but the app itself just instructs you to breathe

in and breathe out while this kind of gentle little to music is playing in the background and it's certainly intended as a kind of stress reliever. So you are starting to see particular moments or games or apps designed with this kind of explicit goal of relaxation or self-care, something to just a quiet place. Interesting. Well, clearly I've got a lot more to explore when it comes to the outer reaches of relaxing, relaxing game playing, but also it sounds like

I need to get far cry too in battle Malaria. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you absolutely. Battle Malaria. Absolutely. I mean, can you die from the Malaria? Like if you just don't treat it, do you just die? I think you can. Although, I mean, it you die from the malaria? Like, if you just don't treat it, do you just die? I think you can. Although, I mean, it's a video game. So you just kind of like load up the last save

or you like respawn somewhere. I think there was a game developer who played that trick, actually. There was a game called Hellblade, which came out last year. And they said, if you die enough times, and there's a visual cue with this illness creeping up your arm, this kind of grope, if it consumes you, you're no longer able to play the game anymore, and it stops you from getting inside.

The game won't work. The game won't work, but I think it was debunked pretty quickly. It's a good idea. I like the idea you get a game. It puts a one time in if you die, that's it. Absolutely. It puts in its sane pressure in the situation, which is interesting.

Hmm. That's a good question. What's it called? Hellblade, Senua Sacrifice. Is it a real game? Yes. But you can continue playing if you die. Yes, you have.

Yeah. Okay, I'm going to look into that. All right, listen, this was great. Lewis, I really enjoyed this conversation. I feel like I learned something about myself. And what that is, I don't know, but it was something. Anyhow, but so, but you write for what are, what are, if people want to go and read stuff that you're writing where other obviously we will do I'm sure we will do something again with

you in the future. But if somebody wants to go and read the the the journalistic stylings of Lewis of Lewis J Gordon, where where my J point they go. You write for waypoint right for waypoint for Vise. Yeah, I write for the Waypoint on Vise. I write about music on noisy for fact. You've written for the wire? And then I write for the wire to... All to be clear, ultimately. ...the music nerd magazine. That's very impressive.

And actually, there's a very good small little online scene I write for called hetero topias. Easy to say, easy to spell, I like that. See, this is my world. This is what I'm into. I mean, you're describing the things that I love. Look, this is very, very interesting conversation. You're a very interesting man. You clearly have a lot of very strange interests and habits. And I like that.

I think that's why you ended up doing a piece for us. But obviously, you clearly have a lot of very strange interests and habits and I like that. I think that's why you ended up doing a piece for us. But obviously, you're writing a lot. I'm sure you'll do something for us in the near future. I hope so, in fact, I'm gonna go tell everybody right now following this conversation. If they don't get you writing something soon, heads are gonna roll.

Virtual heads. In the end, in the end. In the end, in the end, in the end. Anyway, thanks so much and you gotta come back. We'll talk again about, thanks so much. And you got to come back. We'll talk again about music and video games. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Josh. Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow.

And as always, I wish you and your family the very best. So I've just learned that your family has fired their manager and logged back into Twitter.