Tomorrow - 125: Now Laura June's Heart is Full

Episode Date: July 28, 2018

Josh is back in action and Ryan is still trapped in the podcast booth, so this week the pair discuss Silence of the Lambs, Nanette, and how much Michael Cohen loves a Zoom mic. Also, uh how bad does that new DC show Titans look? Yikes. Then we have the immeasurable pleasure of speaking with Laura June, author of the new memoir Now My Heart is Full and the person that married Josh. She is warm and insightful and, even though our hosts are biased, you should buy her book right now. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow. I'm your host Josh Wittipulski. Today on the podcast we discuss Shazam abortions and Clarice Starling. I don't want to waste one minute. Let's get right into it. Well, we're back again Ryan. It happened. We made it. Wasn't I was off last week as you know. And we had a great episode that we had done. You know what? Actually, I got to say, I got to say,

I'm going to want to dress this right now when I'll get out in front of this story. We did not talk about enough things in Mission Impossible 3. I realized now I was so hung up on certain things in about the movie that I forgot about to talk about like the interrogation scene because I actually remember watching I was going to make a note. The scene, oh, we were talking about a mission possible three for a second. The scene where Ethan is torturing a torturing and he threatens Owen Davian. Doesn't that name? That's all right.

Here's what I don't understand. These guys are the mission impossible force, okay? Impossible mission force, sorry. Trained in every skill they speak multiple languages, they can become another person, they can use every type of weapon. Was there really no training that's like, when you're torturing a highly dangerous terrorist, don't use your real name in any circumstance.

You know, in Vingram's, if Vingram's like, Ethan, Ethan, don't do it. Ethan, this isn't you. Ethan, you're a good guy. Ethan, oh, whatever, do this. It's like, maybe don't yell his name. His whole thing is like, he's like, what's your name?

Tell me your name. And then he's like, I'm not gonna tell you my name. And then Vingram's like, Hey, Ethan, don't do it. Don't your wife would be upset about this. Your wife, whatever her name is. Anyhow, you listen, the important thing is that we got to talk about Mission Impossible 3 at all.

And also that it turns out I didn't realize this until I tweeted about it. But apparently the new movie is like a spiritual successor to Mission Impossible 3. Anyhow, okay, so we had a, it's been a big week. It's been a lot of, I mean, so much happening. I, uh, very little is funny. I mean, the last two movies I watched were the Dark Knight, which I revisited, which I have to say is a fucking crazy movie. Oh, yeah. It means I'm really the first three, sorry, the first two thirds of it are very good. The back

third is not good. Yeah, well that's good. Well, yeah, but the first 90 minutes is a long fucking movie. The first 90 minutes is Cracker Jack. Oh, of course. It's, I mean, it's a great film. Great film. Well, I mean, it's a good film.

It's a great film for two thirds, and then a okay film. I think it's a great film with a superb performance in there. That really lifts the film out. There in there that really lifts the film. There are many great performances in the film. Even now that I've grown into the comfort of that dumb voice, the Batman voice, I mean, because now everything's in relief of DC movies, which I was going to say, I'm going to say, I want to talk about all of the DC stuff for a second, because Jeremy and I were talking about it recently in Slack and I want to bring up, I don't know what you have in your

news, but we're just talking. But the dark night, it is so inculherent at the end. I mean, the explanation for what's happening at the end of the movie is like, so, like, you didn't, you just, what, you were just like, we got, it's the last day we have, we're running out of money, we need to really wrap this up somehow. Like, him and Jonathan Nolan sat in the trailer for an hour and we're like, what if he's like, I don't know, he's like, he's got to be a bad guy because the city needs

a bad guy. And it's like, he should be bad. So the commission recording could be good. I don't know. I guess that kind of like people won't notice. It's like Westworld. They're like, no one will notice the none of this makes any sense. Yeah. Um, but also we watched the signs of the lambs last night. Well, two and a over two nights, you know, because we're we watch movies very slowly. Uh, two night over two nights, goodnight, because we're watching these very slowly. You know, and interesting, I guess that film is fucking crazy. Unless I've seen it. Oh, I feel like I watched that once a year.

Now, what I didn't, what I immediately started thinking about is that, you know, in 2018, there's a lot of stuff in that movie that, you know, in some ways was handled like better than I expected. And obviously in other ways in the grand scheme of things. And I read some interviews with Jonathan Demi where he was talking about the portrayal of gay people in films and in that era, right? Yeah. And it's like a very obviously like, you know, it's a, it is a, you know, the killer in the films by spoiler alert, if if you haven't seen some of the lambs, is not really trans. I mean, it's like, it would be,

you could classify it in the, is like, okay, this is sort of an idea of a trans person, it's a person who wants to become a different... It's, it's a queerness as perversion. Yeah, but it's also, but what, one of the points that he made, which I think is true if you watch the movies, is that there's all this like naughty stuff in his house

and like, and one of the things that they say, Hannibal Lecter says about him is that he's tried a bunch of different things. He just wants to change. He's tried a bunch of different things, but none of them stuck. Well, the one they chose as the most cinematic as horrifying for audiences was queerness

as opposed to having him be in a phase, any other phase. This is the phase that he was in because it was the most, like, it was the most skin crawling to see it like a, him tuck his dick. Oh, that's gross. I mean, that most, it was the most skin crawling to see him tuck his dick. Oh, that scene is, I mean, that scene is, it's like, fuck, and go to a dread bar. So that scene, so it's interesting,

because that we watched that, you know, I mean, just probably 12 hours ago, I was watching that or whatever, and it is an unsettling scene for lots of different reasons. I mean, I think he's wearing partial a part of the skin suit that he's making. And so that part is upsetting. But I mean, all of that is trans allegory.

I don't, it doesn't need to be intentional to be like really offensive. Like the whole like making a skin suit out of women for a queer person to put on while he talks is dick. Like that shit. But I don't know, but I think not great. But okay, so listen, so, but I, and this is what I, Lauren, I were talking a lot about last night, like I'm not sure and I I'm not trying to cut him any slack. I still think the movie's excellent,

but it's from a period. It's a good movie. It's from a certain, it's a period that is, now you look at it in through a lens of, okay, there's a lot, we really were not addressing in a healthy way. But you know, you can have a character, you can have a character where those are,

there are elements of the character that are still true to what they do, without it being quite as I think like paranoid about like being you know queer or trans or whatever like because that's the way it comes off right it's like this like oh this weird thing this like subculture that is so crazy but I do also think they make an effort in the film to point out that like he's in the film to point out that like he's, it's his misinterpretation in many ways of what he thinks he wants. Like a lot of it is, like that he is taking something

and do trying to do something with it, the idea, because like that's not what no one's making excuses. If you made this movie today, the way that you would make that point and the way that you would effectively make that point is to cast a trans actress in the role to be a consultant or something like so we see a normal version, like a healthy person's version of like a functioning adult who as a counterpoint so that when you actually see Buffalo Bill, you're like, this isn't a trans

person, this isn't a queer person. This is like a psychotic. Well, you could have a, you could definitely have a series of conversations or scenes in that film where she's talking to people. I mean, she herself could have been, you could definitely have a series of conversations or scenes in that film where she's talking to people. I mean, she herself could have been a transfer. In the, in the LGBT, you know, cute community. Yeah. And was actually like you saw like, they're like, yeah, yeah, this person was in this club.

But they do have, you know what's interesting? There's a lot of subtext that maybe that I never picked up on before. First off, Clarice has these relationships, they have conversations with women in the movie. Like I don't know, she has like this friend who's in school with her, the other, she's in like the FBI school. And I feel like they're intimating that their relationship is more than friends.

They seem like they're like, she's weird that that's subtext, where the Buffalo Bill stuff is like screaming neon sign text. Well then also, but then also like there's a ton of like sexual harassment stuff going on with with her with every man she talks to, particularly the FBI guy, the boss, who's, like, an insane fucking creep. And I never really noticed it as much as, like,

the last time I watched it, where, like, they, when they first meet, or, like, when he congratulates her, there's this close-up of their handshake, and his hand is, like, really, like, grabbing her, and it's, like, a tight shot of their hands, and I was like, oh, he's supposed to be a creep. That's why I've always thought of Curry's

starling as a spiritually similar to, I forget her name from the growth of Dragon Tattoo. Sort of like, Elizabeth Sander. Elizabeth Sander. Is it? Yeah. It's not Elizabeth, is it just Elizabeth? It's Elizabeth. It's Elizabeth Sandler. Is it a calendar? Yeah. It's not Elizabeth. Is it just Elizabeth?

It's a calendar. It's a cool name. You know, they have a new movie. It's a new one coming out. Yeah, I don't know about that. Like the girl who was in the book. It's after the guy died who wrote the books. Yeah.

But so I always thought of it as like a spiritual successor. Like Jurassic Park is a spiritual successor to Frankenstein. As like, both of these women have been abused by men and so they understand men in ways that men don't understand themselves. I'm just saying, Jurassic Park is a spiritual successor to Frankenstein. To Frankenstein.

Let me process that. Is that a known thing? I think so. Is that a... Well, I mean, maybe I'm saying it, but I... What about the island of Dr. Moro? Sure. There can be multiples. I think Jurassic Park is saying like, we're gonna take all the island of Dr. Moro? Sure, there can be multiples.

I think Jurassic Park is saying like, we're gonna take all these parts of these dead things and reanimate life. And like what, what have science brought? We thought we could just make, do we thought we could play God? Yes, sure. And if you can't, it goes wild and kills everybody. But is it, it's false?

Cause it's just doing what's in its nature. It's right. That's right. At any rate, Sancelam's interesting movie, be certainly food for thought, is still, is very upsetting. I mean, not for, not for, it's like, it's sort of a missteps on how it handles,

you know, some of the stuff we're talking about, but like, it's just like unsettling film for lots of reasons. Yeah. And Moody is hell. Something good movies. There's like several twists in it. Like, I forgot how twisty it is.

It's like, the movies about Buffalo Bill and Hannibal Lectures like, oh, I'm gonna give you some advice, and I'm gonna be kind of wily in that, you know. There's like several twists in it. Like I forgot how twisty it is. It's like the movies about Buffalo Bill and Hannibal Lectures like, oh, I'm gonna give you some advice and I'm gonna be kind of wily and then, you know, and then it's like halfway through the movie, it's like, oh shit, now there's two fucking crazes here, serial killers we have to deal with.

And then there's that whole twist about how Hannibal Lecture gets away, which is fucking insane. It's like a little thoo-size vibe. And then they literally do like, basically what Westworld season one was predicated on, which is like that whole scene where they go to the house, you're like,

oh, they're at the house and she's just knocking on doors and it's like, oh, you're fucking with us. Like, you're basically giving us like two timelines that don't match up. And it's a complete like mind-fuck. Anyhow, all right, let's just switch up on news. This is not, yeah. Well, one more thing, we're talking about.

I want to talk about some of this DC stuff, but go ahead. Okay, while we were doing media recommendations, you were saying there's not a lot of laughs to be had. I would heavily recommend everybody watching the net on Netflix, which is Hannah Gadz, these comedy specials. I watched the trailer for that, but can I say something? Yeah, it looks like a downer. It isn't, it isn't. So it does. Speaking of last, this thing is kind of a daily thing. Well, the first half of it is a regular stand-up show, and the second half that's sort of like a commentary on what you just saw. And it is a downer and you definitely will make you emotional, but it's also super hopeful.

And it was like a breakthrough thing, not just for me as a comedian, but for like a person in the world. And I was like, fuck. And so if you haven't seen it and you've been seeing it everywhere and you're like, I would just give it your time. I've heard a lot of people talking about it. I've seen a lot of people recommend it. This now gives me, I'm more deeply interested

and it sounds interesting. I mean, it's interesting that it's split. And that way I didn't know. It was unclear. I don't know the trailer is doing it. Because they don't want to give anything away. And I'm not going to. But it's like format breaking and fun.

Oh, that's cool. That's interesting. I want to talk about it. I don't know the time. I don't know the time. I want to talk about these DC stuff. God, this Titans movie. This Titans movie. Is it a movie?

It's a show. It looks like a fucking TV show. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait you're gonna get multiple episodes of Rob and Sam. Are you fucking kidding me? Are you fucking kidding me? Every episode ends with him saying fuck Batman. No, but like he like, okay, so like, okay. I love that they're the music and the trailer is that, like, have you ever seen the video that's like, I've got the caddies and bananas. No. It's like a parody of that Halsey voice

that everybody's singing in. And they're like, affected the big accent tumbler. It's a pesquetti. We used to, there's a singer who was a chisong and we're like, oh, it's Gryves. Originally, I first heard Gryves. Like, does she say pesquetti at some point? Because it sounds like a literal baby talk.

It's, you know, I grew on me. But like, there's like a vine where these guys like, welcome to my kitchen. And he like just old things up in his kitchen. And he says like, Avocado and bananas. And it sounds great. Where are you from? things up in his kitchen and he says like Evacate and the nannies. That sounds great. Where are you from?

Eropia. He's place in the edit. Put it that into the fire. Welcome to my key. We have been nannies in Avicante.

Anyhow, you and Umat Thurman have the excellent. So the Titan thing looks in. Jammy was like, is this real? He's like, I had to, I had to go around. It looks like a fan film. It looks like one of those trailers,

it's like Superman Returns or whatever. And you're like, oh shit, there's a Superman truck. And then it's like they cut together some Henry Caval movie and put like some like slow motion Superman logo in it. And then like Evan Essence comes in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, like Lincoln Park.

Workwear! When Superman's like coming. But it's like, I put in their own coming. But it's like putting their own effects. It's like super bad for a video game, and then it's like Henry Cavill from another movie, and like he's got like a hat on. Anyhow, I fucking hate those things. That trailer was so bad.

But especially because that show was so good. Both, I actually like Teen Titans go. Teen Titans is fun. All of the Teen Titans things have been on a cartoon network. It is near wherever and they're good. So, they're going good. This is like DC's thing is like, what is the power of the strong, that's that movie out

right now, which is like the Teen Titans go to the movies movie. And it's gotten fantastic reviews. I don't know. I know. I know. I know. This is all very meta. I don't understand that.

But then okay, I want to wait. Then there's Shazam. Oh, God., Shazam. Okay, Shazam is a DC character, correct? Did Zack Snyder do Shazam? No. Okay. Shazam looks so fucking bad. I know. No offense to Zach, Zach really.

I know, I like him. I like him. I love him. And I like Shazam. I love him in the role of Flynn Rider in Tangled, okay? Which is the best Disney animated film and don't at me, okay? Don't at me. I won't, but you're wrong. No, what do you think is the best Disney animated film and don't at me, okay? Don't at me. I won't, but you're wrong.

No, what do you think is the best Disney animated film? My favorite of the best. My favorite to add in the best is Beating the Beast. Wow, Aladdin is a laden is very problematic as is Leelow and Stitch. I don't know if they're seeing Leelow and Stitch. Beating the Beast is fucking insane. I tried to watch it with Zelda and it's like, it's really outrageous. I love it. I think I'm including

Pixar in this. Oh, because they're Disney, right? That's tough because Toy Story 3 is a real jug or not. I don't know if I've seen it. It's the one where it fucking crushes. That's the one where the kid gets killed. No, I made that up. I don't know if that happens. That's the one where we're looking up up. That's the one where where Tim Allen comes out his character. You know what? No, not even fast. Fast. I made that up all. Disney movie is the first 15 minutes of up the rest of the movie sucks.

The first 15 minutes, that's the best. Never seen a movie. I won't watch it. I refuse to depressing. Yeah. That's that's the net. You know, I like that. I like that.

I like it Ralph. I thought it was pretty good. Yeah. It was fun. I mean, I mean, I was like, I've watched it was out. She was very young. She won't watch it now. she's just too scary, but she's in like movies. But you're, they didn't get a kingdom heart to reference into the movie, a record Ralph,

not like that. I think there is one, are you sure there is one? I don't think there is. Well, there will be a fun. Anyway, DC movies, Shesam's fucking terrible. Looks terrible. Okay, then Aquaman.

Okay, dude, I mean, how fucking bad, like how do you know, it is honestly like DC is like and by the way I don't even like the fucking Marvel movies although I would love I would love a good DC I know I know I know I would so was I was a Batman. I would I mean I like Spider-Man too a lot So sure like I like the X-Men I was gay, but like Batman was my dude back girl is my I stand for back girl I mean listen I the original, the original, when the original Batman came out,

then it Tim Burton won. I mean, there was such a huge, it was such a huge moment for me. The animated series, the action figure. Oh, the animated series in the 90s was fantastic. I mean, that's what I grew up in. I mean, that returns as everyone knows is the best Batman maybe. Catwoman rocks that said many times, anyhow.

But, but I have to say, it is crazy to me. It is like, they are the anti, I mean, they are like the anti-marvel. And I don't mean like they're against them. No, I mean like they are a black hole where light goes to die. It's so sad. I mean, also, they're so, I mean, the Aquaman thing is like,

look, I know, by the way, I made a joke about Aquaman on Twitter, which again, never tweet, but I thought it was pretty good. I don't know if you see my tweet about Aquaman. I didn't see it. It's very good. You should look it up. It was a conversation between a movie executive and Zack Snyder about what Aquaman.

Oh, I didn't see that. Yeah. I thought it was very good tweet. I really, it came into my head and I was like, I'm gonna do this. People, I have to say, guys, Ieh who commented to me who were like, oh, it shows what you know, a compliment predates Thor by the 20 years.

Like, I don't, I'm not talking about the comics. It's a joke. I don't so I don't care. It's a joke. How when it's like, it's a joke. Are you, oh, I'm sorry, is DC paying you? No. Right.

Okay, then don't fight their battles. Listen, you, you've got to find something better in life to care about. You just do. You just need anything. Honestly, it doesn't matter. I spent a decade of my life obsessed with Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I sent out two tweets about the reboot and have moved on.

Yeah, that's it. I mean, I mean, adult man. Yeah, there's a Buffy reboot. Who's in it? It looks like shit. Okay, of course it does. Everything new is bad. It looks real bad.

But I wish it the best, but it's going to be garbage. But spike in it. Nope. Okay. He's like a billion years old now. Old spike would be cool though. Did he die? I don't know. Don't know. It's just that's for the vampires can age. Okay. Anyway, let's talk about at least two news stories. I just want to say one thing. Fine. We can do that. But I just want to say one quick thing. It is almost a talent. How bad they've made these movies. Oh, it's almost, it's almost verges into like,

I'm impressed. Like, how do you keep making them so bad? Like each one is worse than the last. I don't understand how suicide squad could be a bad movie. It was so stacked with stars, funding, development times. I forgot about suicide's cause. I mean, you could have just ripped off one of the comic book, just one of them.

They're all a fine. Everybody's like, oh, Wander Woman's good. It's like, Wander Woman's great. It's okay. Wander Woman's great. It's like Wander Woman's great. Wander Woman's great. Because everything that's been around it is so bad.

It's like, no, I loved it. I cried. I came home and talked to John for three hours about the philosophy of the film. I loved it. I thought the villain was really dumb. The villain was dumb. I'll give you that.

I'll give you that. The villain was dumb in that movie and the back third of the Dark Knight sucks. The villain. Yeah, but I have to say, Wonder Woman was much more enjoyable to watch than it was a good movie. You can at least say it was a good movie. I liked it. I said it was good.

And I don't really care for Wonder Woman as a character. Because I don't like her or Superman because you're fucking boring But I love the movie. I wonder what one has a really interesting backstory. Yeah, okay for a back girl Okay, so two real news stories from the real world. We got a release try. Yeah We could talk about the Trump tapes or Facebook stack prices falling You pick your poison. I'll go with Facebook first. Yeah. Uh, who could have seen this coming? Ha ha ha ha ha.

Facebook's in trouble. Uh, you know what? First off, I'm sure they'll bounce back. I guess. I don't know, but let me tell you something. Listen, Mark and at Jack are going to be fine, but every time they suffer, it feels real good for me. All I have to say is this.

Nothing lasts forever. Yeah. Everything dies. You build your castle on the sand. And the best thing that everybody can realize, the most important thing everyone can realize right now, is Facebook is not the internet and it doesn't have to be. You only allow it to be when you give it your time and attention. You can be free anytime you want.

The answer is inside. Look within yourself. I feel the same way. Anyhow, fuck Facebook. You know what, listen, I mean, I, we use Facebook because it's a part of the war, you've got to, right? I have that for events for work.

No, I'm saying we, the outline, we promote stories on Facebook because there is a not, there is, there are people who are finding the stories there. We, it is not the source, the highest source of traffic for us. We have a pretty diverse source, it's a set of traps. Social is part of it, but it's not all of it, and not even close. And I'm happy to know that we have options when it comes to where people find

those stories. But I think that Facebook is, I Facebook is, I mean, Facebook is, look, you know, we ran a story yesterday about info wars, about how like YouTube and Facebook will refuse to basically just say, these people are bad actors spreading garbage into our system and we're going to stop it. I was going to bring this up. This is The great mistake that all of these companies have made, and they've allowed themselves to now be put in this position where Trump's like talking about how it's illegal, it's illegal to shadow ban people on Twitter. It's like, no, it's not.

It's like, if you wanna, you can stock mind-conf or not, or you can put mind-conf, look, here's the deal. Twitter's a bookstore, Facebook is a bookstore, okay? They wanna put mind mine comp on the shelf in the back of the place under Nazi fucks. That's their prerogative and their choice because they're a private business, for profit business. They're not a free speech platform.

They're not violating somebody's freedom of speech. They're running a business. When you're posting on Twitter and Facebook, you're in someone's house, you're in their restaurant. You don't have to abide by every rule of, nobody you let's put this way, if you run a restaurant so it comes in and starts screaming, you can ask them to leave or you can tell them to be quiet. Listen, it's like firing a crowded theater.

You're not guaranteed admission to the theater. Once you're in, if you start yelling stuff that's illegal, you'll be removed. And that's that. I mean, it's not you're, God given right to go into a movie and start. And start, and start, and start, right. So like, so why would, why do we think, so their biggest mistake is they're like, that's what we do, we're a free speech platform.

It's like, how the fuck up? Why would you even, why would you even, why would you even, that precedent? You're a for-profit business. You are, here's what you really are, is a glorified comment section. And you know what I learned, running comment sections? You get the fucking ban hammer out.

You ban the fuck out of people who violate the community rules. You know what's great moderators? Moderators who you trust to police, the activities of your users are very, very useful. And if Facebook, Twitter don't want to cop to the idea that they need moderators and they're completely fucking insane. Well, Twitter and Facebook at least has the ability

to silo yourself into separate communities that can even be self-governing. So if you just wanna be part of a Facebook group, I'm not saying it's great, Facebook's terrible. But Twitter, the problem is it's just a mass of sea of people and there's no way to stop people from commenting about you or to you or harassing you. It's a comment section.

It's a comment section with, look, at AOL we learned that having a open system where anybody could log in with any kind of email address or whatever and having anonymous presence on there. I mean, we like begged our developers to change the system and we eventually did and they were like, but then you'll have fewer people coming. We're like, yeah, that's the idea. We don't want every single person who just decided that they were going to say something awful or impersonate somebody or drop some shitty fucking picture in. And we can talk about Garker and its problems for a long time, but there was a moment at

which they had cultivated a very successful comment section that actually had something additive to the articles. And it was through banning people and promoting specific voices and taking away privileges. And I mean, just like, look, it's not, it's just, so anyhow, so Facebook's woes, like, all I can say is you made your bed, you've created this system where you wanted to be, Mark Zuckerberg wants to be the internet. You don't get to be the internet if you're Facebook.

Number one, it should be broken up. I think it should be regulated, like a motherfucker. I think their admonopoly should be regulated. Zephyr Teach-Hile was talking about this yesterday. Their admonopoly should be regulated. Their encroachment on the internet should be regulated. I think the same is true for Google. And if we don't get some politicians

that can actually do that in the near future, we're really- Amazon Web Services is an entire internet. But what we shouldn't have is these Republican, these right-wing nut jobs who are like, what about Diamond and Silk or whatever? Which is like, that's not- I can't.

This is not the free jacked dorsi's going to the meeting. These guys are all such, they're all such spineless, they're all such spineless fucking dummies. Like, really? Do you think they should live Diamond and Silk? I'm gonna help. Guess what? Guess what?

Diamond Silk can go on gab or whatever. Let them, let them hang out on gab. You know, let them hang out on, they can go on the InfoWars website. The, the, the, you're like, you owe it to them. You know, let them hang out on, they can go on the Info Wars website. The idea that like you're like, you owe it to them? You don't know them shit. But they've made it to bed and to quote Aladdin,

you wanna be an all-powerful genie. Wow. Wow. That's what they wanted. They wanted to be the internet. Great. Well, we regularly talk about internet. Does he wish for more wishes in Aladdin?

No, he can't. It's against the rules. Oh, well, let's do it because I know. One last thing. Yeah, let's do it. Um, Trump Cohen tapes and the articles of impeachment have been filed for Rod Rose. Well, that's back. The articles of impeachment stuff already got knocked back, I think, I think, uh, I think it's already been struck down.

Or I think Paul Ryan, I think Paul Ryan was like, no, hey, come on doing this. Uh, and then the Trump Cohen stuff, the conversation alone, this is what I took away from it, whether you think it's Trump being on the up and up by saying like, uh, you know, Like, I don't know what I don't know what you think Trump saying and Trump is the president, then, uh, Republican nominee for president, talking about a backroom deal to one, one, pay off, use a media outlet to pay for you to cover a story for you. And a shell company. And then two for your lawyer to pay off a mistress and it's dirty. And this is just one little segment of a conversation.

Now, I'm not saying. And here's what the conversation really is. It's like, okay, all this stuff happens in 2016, and that's all fucked up. But also, he's just lied about it and was immediately proved wrong. He's been lying about it nonstop. It's like Sarah Sanders has been lying about it.

Now, here's what I don't know. Does anything matter? Well, this is the thing. If this were Obama, I don't believe this. I really believe this. Fizz or Hillary Clinton? I think if this were any. President Clinton pays off Mr. But I think one thing about mine, but I think if this were any president Clinton, it pays off Mr.

but I think one thing about mine, but I think one thing about the Democrats, I'm not saying this is like up and down the line, but they are very quick to burn their own people. Like like Lail Frank and Cheney was jumping to Al Frank's defense. They're like get out, Al, bye. And like, okay, you got the moral high ground.

How is that helping Republicans never do that? How's that helping? They could be like, they're literally like, Roy Moore is like a child rapist or whatever. And then they turn around, they're like, Pat and Oswald one time tweeted about how pretty his daughter was, look at this pedophile. Like they have no, it's completed by her.

They don't give a shit. There's also this weird, I mean, this is a separate thing, but like all I want to say is this, I think that Obama would have resigned already, just from that tape, there would have been a resignation, there would have been already just from that tape. There would have been a resignation. There would have been a push from everybody. Nancy Pelosi would have been a politicizing. Yes. There would have been a shock of humor. American people. This is unacceptable. We don't accept what the point is. I'm only saying is in Fox News,

they would have like literally gone into there be 17 reddit about conspiracy theories. A lot would be spurting out of everywhere or whatever Trump says. Yeah. But wherever. Yeah. Yeah. I'm fucking idiot. But Bingbong, Bingbong, Bingbong, Bingbong, Bingbong. But the, just look, I mean, look, this guy's so rotten.

He's just such a bad, by the way, it's not about morality. I don't care if he, I want to have an affair. That's his business. Honestly, I don't mind. I'm a hiring up. It's right. It's his business. Honestly, I don't mind. I'm a cop. I'm not. It's right. It's all that stuff. And it's the fact that he's sitting with Clinton. He shouldn't lie. That's what it is. I agree. Clinton's the move should always be. Yeah, I did it. I

fucked. Yeah. You know what? I did it. I'm an idiot. Yeah. Now I'm in big trouble. Not going to ruin this 23 year old fucking entire life by making this into. I'm not trying to. And I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to sugar co-clin because that was a very fucked up situation. But I feel the same way about that as it, it comes to their personal lives, which is to say, now I think an intern,

no, it's super fucked up. That gets into a pretty great, not good area, bad area. Listen, it's all fucked up, but I'm just saying that that the line is just as bad. The line is, but what I'm saying is the whole thing is so. It just so slimy and it's the line is so insane. He's lied so many times and in so many different ways about it. And as have his people, what do you think that what other things are they lying about? This is just the type of the answer. The thing I went to, so I went home for the weekend to for a family reunion. I think what rap on that? But I went home for the

weekend for a family reunion. And I said to my dad, I couldn't, I couldn't help reunion. I think, what rap? But I went home for the weekend for a family reunion and I said to my dad, I couldn't help myself. I just want to feel safe and comfortable with him again in like a larger sense. And so I was like, I'm just gonna ask you this once and you can tell me and then we won't talk about it anymore. But are you comfortable with everything going on? There's nothing that has given you pause

about the Trump administration or him being the president. And it was like, nope. And it was like, okay, you're part of this base that nothing will ever affect you. Nothing will affect your vote. Nothing is just complete blind loyalty. Everything that you don't like is fake.

Everything that you do like is like the only thing that matters. It's just a cult of personality. And they are so concerned with servicing their base because they're scared they'll be punished by them. Their base would support anything they do. But I actually think this bodes well for us because if they keep fucking chasing the approval

of people who are gonna prove everything they do, and so they just keep going lower and lower into more to the right, more to the right, more disgusting. The swing voters, who are a real voting block? My mom is a swing voter. She's a real voting block. Are you never gonna touch, she voted for Hillary,

but it was with a lot of like, I don't know about her. I know about her. There are quiet moments of, like she hasn't talked about politics around my dad, but there's moments where we'll be on the phone and I'm like, did you believe this? She's like, she'll get like a motion. And of course not.

Of course you think affection. She would have for Trump in the next. No, oh my God, she'll get emotional. And of course not. Of course you think of fashion. I would have her for Trump and then I said, no, oh my God, she's not gonna vote for any Republican in the next election. So because of this, but I think it's actually good because swing voters are never gonna vote.

So I think, I agree. I mean, I think, as long as Jerry Mann during doesn't ruin this. Well, this is, I mean, this is, and I think I've said this before and I hate to beat a dead horse, but because you know, it's like dad, leave it alone. The question now, for for me is like,

I feel like punch a dead horse. What, honestly, if you were like a Trump, a Trump, you know, maga, fanboy, whatever in 2016. Are you, do you feel, what I'm wondering is like, is there a renewed, like a renewed sense of excitement about Trump? Are you feeling like, yeah, like is your dad, he maybe doesn't have a regret, but what I'm wondering is, is he like, there's a 30 to 35% of the country that it's just, they

just, they vote. They support Trump. They're going to go out and do it. I think there's a five to 10% who support Trump. They don't always vote. Do you know what I mean? This is what I'm saying. Yeah. So I'm saying that what we get towards midterms here are people feeling like, is there a ground swell of support for all these like Trump related rip? You know, all these Republicans that are Brexit style excitement to be trolley. And

I don't think these people are going to go vote in 2018. I don't think these people are voting in terms. And then so the question is, like, is there a ground swell? Is there a grassroots movement of people who maybe weren't voting or thinking of, if now are, I think on the left very minted voters, people who just turned 18, younger people, older people who sat it out, because they were like, it doesn't matter or Hillary's gonna win no matter what. So what I have to, what I am holding on to is my shred of hope for everything is that,

that it is, that Trump's very, I mean, I'll say mediocre to be generous, okay? His mediocre performance. I mean, I think it's been a disaster. I think it's the worst in history, but let's be very bad. It's very bad, but that his be very bad. It's very bad. But that his performance doesn't excite anybody right now. He didn't do. He looks messy. He looks confused. There's all this tear of stuff. There's this farming subs. His, his, his

base doesn't go out and vote because he likes Russia. They went out and voted because they wanted tax cuts and they wanted their healthcare to be cheaper and they want to pay it for it. And I don't think that's happening. That's not happening. Their healthcare premiums have gone up. They are paying, either paying more taxes or the same unless they're part of the super rich. So what motivates them? He didn't save coal. He didn't do any of that shit.

So, coal's back. Why would you, why would you be like, well, at least like, I'm getting what I want. Companies moving to different countries. So, I think that, you know what we can hope for is, is that the, this, the scale swings. So you can't be, you mentioned, you mentioned Jerry Mandarin, I think it has to be,

can't be like, oh wow, it's like a 50, 50 by like 10 votes. What has to happen is that there needs to be overwhelming like 60 to 70 points. Like percentage points, like significant percentage points. I mean, it could be, I mean, polls this week looked good from CNN, there was double digit leads. So all I know is we got to keep everybody's to keep the pressure on. Keep people excited and invested and interested. I, I, we need to stop shit talking Alexandria, a

Casio Cortez, because like, are we shit talking her? Uh, yeah, a ton of people are just being like, Oh, we're not going down this road or like just spending some, it's like guys, if she's making people excited, I don't argue about socialism later. Like who gives a shit? She's getting people to vote. Just shut the fuck up. Listen, I've met a lot of different types of Democrats. I mean, some people are like, people are like, she doesn't know

what that much about Israel. Can you shut the fuck up? I mean, please. You know what, all you need to know about Israel is they pass the law that basically is like a Nazi law. They pass the law that is like, we are a Jewish state and our first languages Hebrew and all this stuff and like it's an insane law and I can't go into it.

We can't get into, we're not solving it. We're not solving it. No, actually, no calling. The writer wrote something very good for, I can't think of what publication it is now and so forgive me, but he wrote something very good about that. I recommend everybody read it and if I could tell you what it was called or where it is, anyhow. Good. I recommend everybody read it. And if I could tell you what it was called or where it is. Anyhow, I would try to, anyhow, look that up, look for it. Yeah, we should move on.

Yeah, we're gonna have a great interview. Say that again. We should move on. We have a great interview coming up with my wife and the author, Laura June, who has just published her first book, a memoir called, Now My Heart Is Full. We're going to take a quick break. And then we're going to be back with some very personal, very nasty stuff. What happens if you play Monopoly with real money? We've got to pay the pipe.

Okay, I'll pay the pipe. There are no rewards in this completely reinvented game of an object. What does space sound like? What happens when you overwork yourself? Do you believe that work related stress has increased? It reflects the fact of how little value we place on the well-being of human days.

The Outline World Dispatch. Every Monday, Tuesday, we bring you a new story on the theme of power, culture, or the future. And picked from theoutline.com. Find us an Apple podcast, Google Play, Spotify, your Amazon Alexa Flash briefing, or wherever you download your podcasts. Also, you can say, okay, Google, play me the news. And we're right there. Oh my God, yeah. Make your mornings a little weirder. My guest today is a very talented young lady from the great state of Pennsylvania. She's an author, she is a journalist, and most importantly she is my sexual partner in life. She's also my wife. My wife. My wife. I'm of course talking about the

inimitable Laura June. Laura, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. You know, I love you. And our bedroom. Yeah, I mean, I should say that we're recording this interview. This is an interview recorded in our bedroom on our bed. There's nothing sexual about it.

It's just that it's a quiet place. I think the same joke was made the last time we recorded an interview in this situation. It's just a quiet room with great acoustics. Anyhow, let's get to the chase. Okay, let's not beat around the bush. Laura June has just published her first book. It is a memoir on Penguin, the imprint Penguin books. Is that an imprint? Or is that just the name of the company? I have no idea. Honestly, there's many imprints of penguin random. You maybe have heard of it. It's penguin. It's a very popular brand that all the folks,

all the book folks are talking about. And how she published a book, it's called Now My Heart is Full. It is a memoir as the French call it. And it is about many things, but I think most importantly, it's about our daughter Zelda. Laura's experience as a new mother and her relationship with her mother, who was an alcoholic. Who was awesome. Who was an awesome alcoholic who drank herself to death. I don't want to spoil it for anybody, but she's dead. Yeah. So, okay, so let me ask you a question.

Yes. You wrote this book. Yes. I did. Now, the book is, the book is comprised of many stories that I've heard for many years. Yes. But then there are stories in the book that I haven't heard. Right.

How do you, why do you, I guess here's a question, because I can write about my parents and my family and my experience as a human. Why was it, why did you want to write this book? So I think it was a thing that happened in stages. When I started writing about Zelda, I wrote a couple of things for the all, which were not really like conscious decisions to like be like a mommy blogger. You had a you started a column for the all called the parent wrap. Yes, but we didn't have a name for it originally.

I wrote like a couple of things where it was like not clear that it was going to be like a regular thing. Who named it? Who named it? Matt Buchanan named it, I believe. Matthew Buchanan. Matthew Buchanan. Buchanan. Yeah, I believe. Matthew Buchanan? Matthew Buchanan. You Buchanan, yes.

Yeah, OK. All right. And so I, you know, just like sent him the first, maybe one or two or three of them, where it was like I knew I wanted to go back to writing, but I had no, you know, I'd done nothing for six months, but be a mother. You were a great mom. I was on leave.

I was just kind of hanging out. And I sort of just wrote what I was thinking about. And there was a really good response to it. And people started emailing me and tweeting at me and saying, I'm really happy that you're writing about these things because there's nothing online or in anywhere that gets to the, that like talks the way that you talk about your experience. And so I just sort of kept going.

But this does not answer my initial question. Right. So that was the first stage. And so I did that for like two years. And eventually like, you know, I got an agent and she was like, we should do a book of essays and I was like, yeah, I think that's a great idea. But at a certain point in the process, I was like,

oh, I think I've been writing around something. And I had a conversation with her the night before Thanksgiving one night. And I was like, oh, like, you know, like, there's something like kind of really fucked up, which is, I had a really, really terrible relationship with my mother, and she's dead, and she was an alcoholic, and I think it's informed a lot of my feelings about parenting. And that was sort of the beginning of thinking about how I would write a book. Did a little, I want to back up a little bit for a second. Now I don't know for people who are

listening to this, they may or may not know this, but Laura and I have had a very complicated relationship. And some of the time that we've been in our relationship, our romantic relationship, our spiritual relationship, we've also worked together. I've edited you. You've edited me. We have now learned that editing each other is a huge mistake. Yes. Actually, I don't mind when you edited me. Yep. We have now learned that editing each other is a huge mistake. Yes. Actually, I don't mind when you edit me.

You fly into a complete rage whenever I give you an edit. But that's a whole different story. But everyone I've ever worked with, every editor is like, oh, you're so great at it. I'm sure that's true. It just makes it so much more galling to know that when I give you a piece of constructive criticism. Fuck you. No, the reaction is something like, you know, I'm like, yeah, I think this could actually be and instead of the or whatever. I don't know what that is. I don't know if

that's a data that could actually happen. But you're like, how dare you suggest and or whatever. I mean, you don't wouldn't say that, but it's more aggressive and personal. But so we've had a long history of collaboration. And honestly, this is not important information right now, but I did think when you were telling me these stories, I always felt, you mean about me these stories, I always felt. You mean about my mom?

Yes, about your mother and about before Zelda, obviously, but about yourself. I always thought that there was a book there. And I mean, I think what you're saying is like you decided to write a book, not by, you know, you were like, I'm going to write a book because that's what I want to do But you wrote a book because it just was a gradual progression from writing about yourself and writing about Zelda

Yeah, I mean because I think that like when you originally like suggested That I would write a book about myself, which was you know 13 years ago or something Long before you had anything really think, anything to say about yourself. Right, like I had been like keeping diaries and stuff, and that's probably like how my voice developed, but I think that like I would have bulked at the idea of like exposing myself earnestly through the world.

That's right. And I think when Zelda was born, that began a process of me going like, wow, this is really fucked up. I feel like this experience is not anything that I have ever read about. And that like through like a series of steps, I got to the place that you had originally suggested,

which was like, oh, you should write about your mom and like your experience with her. Right. A through a series of unfortunate events you did that. But no, but I do think, I mean, you know, when I, I mean, your stories, I had never met anyone or been close to anyone who had alcoholism as a, who had dealt with alcoholism or even really understood alcoholism. I mean, I, I have people in my family who drank

myself, I myself being cooler. I myself being drunk. I myself being one of them. But, but no, it was like, you know, I had never encountered like actual alcoholism. And when you told me some of the stories about your, your childhood, you know, your house burning down.

Yeah, we're like immediately as soon as someone starts drinking, they're like, I'm gonna destroy everything. Well, I mean, it was just, it was just so, it was so outsized to my stories. I mean, of my childhood, we're like, oh, my mother got mad at me because I, you know, swaps sandwiches with the kid at school. And she thought I was being scammed out of my sandwich

or something, you know, which I think is interesting. I've scammed so many times. I mean, that's an interesting story to explore. It don't get me wrong. I remember Eric, my brother, you know, he like swaps watches with a friend of his and my mother was so mad. So they were so, you were so, you were so scared. They were so sure that he'd been scammed out of his swatch or whatever. Right. And it's like, look, he

got a swatch in return. It's not like he ended up with no swatch. It was the worst swatch. But you know, that's Eric's story. And I want to let Eric, I'll let Eric tell it. I'll let Eric tell it. But my point is the stories were like, oh, yeah, like your mother burned your house down or whatever. Which is it, which is, which is, you know, I felt scammed. You got scammed out of a childhood. This was a house. Yeah, oh yeah, no, I had no childhood.

You guys show that out of good memories. Yes. But no, but I do think it's interesting. I mean, you know, when you were telling me those stories, I was like, wow, this would make a great book. But I didn't, I wasn't, you know, I was sort of half like, well, saying it because it's sounded right to me. It's pretty incredible.

Only because it was so extreme. I don't know where I'm going with this except to say that it's incredible that you went from telling those stories and thinking about those stories. And thank you to the book. And then doing a book about it. I did the book. You did the book. Do you know that he said no thank you to the book?

Did you? No, I think I scoffed at it, pretty hard originally. Oh, well, you're one of America's greatest scoffers, so that's one surprise to me. But the book is dead. Yeah, you did the book. And I guess this brings me to the ultimate question, which is how is it that you made me seem somewhat cool in the book when I think that we all know that I'm a Like a I'm like living with me is like living with a terrorist.

Like I'm like a every day is 9-11 with Josh Topolsky. Oh, Osama Bintopolsky. Oh, Osama Bintopolsky is how I describe myself. Hot. And although we don't know that he did 9-11 really, this jury's still out on that because, you know, as we all know, um, of course, Jeff, you cannot melt steel beams. I think I've said that many times. Maybe you've seen my documentary on YouTube. But anyhow, but what is the question?

Hold on, I'm getting to it. But you know, you managed to, I don't want to make this about myself, but it is my podcast. So I think I want to talk about you. I have the right. No one ever asks. No one ever asks about me. Right.

Though early in the columns occasionally, Leah Finnickin would comment because I rarely referred to Zelda having a father and she'd be like, who's Josh? Yeah, no, it's, I was a bit, I was a shadow figure. No, actually, it's funny that this is, I don't wanna go to Tanger, but I had a drink with an old friend tonight who just recently had a baby. And I said to him, I said,

he's in the first few weeks. And I was like, oh, you're a walk on part. You are a background character who maybe gets a line if you're lucky. I try to explain the situation, which is that the dad, Josh, in my case, me, this guy, is really in the early days of a child's life I mean if if the mother is the primary caretaker that's always the case If you're the you're like a straight couple with yeah, it's just normative. You're just like a system normative

turf couple where you give give birth Yeah, I didn't give birth. I didn't give birth. I gave birth. Right, that's, well, you know, we think we don't know all the details. I've heard you give birth as generous. I mean, we don't know. I mean, you know, I had birth. Jet Fuel Camp Melt Still Beam. So we don't know.

But the point is that the dad is a secondary care service. Yes. And so I understand why Leah Finnegan, you know, one of the great editors of the outline, would be skeptical about my existence. Great header of some all time. And one of the greatest editors in America, in American history, in American journalism history.

But I can understand why she'd be skeptical about my existence. Right. And that makes sense. But I guess what I would say, getting back to my core point, which is very clear. About you. I'm sure this must be very enjoyable getting back to my core point, which is very clear. I'm sure this must be very enjoyable

for people to be listening to, but it's that, you know, you have to omit, okay? When you write, it's not just inclusion, it's omission. Most omission. That's what I was gonna say.

And tell me about that. Like, you're writing, I've never really written that much about myself. Yes. Because if people heard about me and my personal stuff, they would be very upset and disgusted. But you write a lot about yourself, but you have to admit. So how do you decide?

How do you contort yourself to create a narrative that is obviously inclusive of much of what's happening in your world. But is also leaving a lot out. So actually, this is like the most interesting thing to me, which is, you know, it's, I was not a person who wrote about myself for most of my writing career. I just was writing. And when I decided to write about myself for most of my writing career. I just was writing. And when I decided to write about myself,

I was very, very much aware of what I would write would affect the people closest to me. And those people were originally you and all that. Yeah. Like, for instance, like you talk about some medical procedures that you had in the book, and maybe your dad didn't know about. Oh, the abortion.

Oh, okay, well we're gonna go there. Well, you talk about doing an abortion. Well, that's now. Like originally when I started writing about myself, I was writing around a lot of things. I was writing around you and certain things about our life in our relationship. I was just writing about my experience

with Zelda and sort of being alone with her. Right. And slowly over the course of two years, I sort of came up against the wall of like, I would like to write about my mother. And because my mom was dead, I felt entitled to write about her. Yeah, I mean, what's she going to do? Right, but like also, like, I feel like, you know, alcoholism is a thing that I would not, if my mother was alive and an alcoholic, I would not write about her because I feel like it's a,

I feel like it's a, of course it would affect me but it's not my story. What about under a pseudonym? What if you could write about her? You know, you had a non-duplume as they say. No, I would just have no desire to like, I mean, what is it? Am. It's no.

No, it's no. Okay, I don't speak French, but I know that that means a pseudonym. Yeah. No, I just, what about if you wrote under the name, like, let's say, EL, June? You mean fiction. What about if you wrote under the name, like let's say, EL June? You mean fiction? No, you were writing the truth, but it was under a different name. Would you then maybe consider writing about?

Well, I actually think that like the point of writing memoir and nonfiction is like, you're exposing something about your life so that other people can relate to you and connect with you. Right. And that was what originally drew me to it. Like, I was originally just like writing because like, that was my material. And so I was like reaching out.

And like, I didn't feel like I was like trying to connect with people, but then they responded. And so I kept going. People who are reading your column. Yeah. I started to hear from people and that made me feel like there was like some kind of void, some lack of material in the world that I think. About reading about child rearing in the early stages

and experience that a person has. Yeah, like the identity stuff, like the things that happened to you when you have a kid and you are a modern person with a career and the changes that you undergo, like I just felt like very changed by it. And I felt like as soon as I started writing about it, like people started to email me and they were like, oh, like, you know, like the all had never published writing about parenthood before. No, that's because it was a sheik, a couple of. And lots of, lots of publications, which like didn't really cover parenting then do now, because I feel like it's a thing that you know we've aged into but I think that like but also it's it's a content I mean it's a it's a

rich area of content that a lot of people sort of need well you don't need it until you do well no but I mean I'm saying a lot of people have kids. Most people have. Well, I don't know. I don't know the details. I don't know the first. I think most people will have children eventually. And even those people who don't like physically have a child have like children adjacent in their

lives. Yeah, they're child adjacent. I'm just saying that there is now that we have a web, the world by web, it, there is a hunger for genreification of the things that people are interested in or thinking about or worried about or whatever. and that has become a, that whole world has become a genre, right? Yeah. Like, just talking about parenting is a genre. Well, I mean, I think it's, you know, it's caused by a lot of things, but I think that like,

you know, the truth is that like, even one or two generations ago, it was never really a question of whether or not a woman would have a child or many. And now it's like when you're 24, 25, like that's a normal question for a woman to ask herself, am I gonna get married, am I gonna have a child? In 1960, it was assumed you would do those things if you could physically. Look, we've all seen mad men.

So I'm just saying what happens. What I'm saying is it becomes more interesting to young women who would buy Vogue magazine. Is Vogue doing mommy blogging? I think Vogue.com does do some like a Jason parenting content now, which is like incredible. Who would have ever thought that Anna went or would be? Which is like, it's not sexy, you know, but like I think I disagree. I think the decision is a very sexy. I think the decision to or not to is very important to young women.

Yes, of course, but I don't know what I have for first, I think we spiraled out of control here. We did. I have no idea what we're actually talking about right now. And nor can I remember the question that I asked. I think the original question you asked was about, I was talking about, not quite up on it, but, yeah.

That good, it's better. I mean, just not like this far. I think the original question was about like, when you're writing a memoir, how to decide what you're not. Yeah, and I think that like the truth is I was overly sensitive and we've talked about this a lot. I'm acutely aware of the living people in my life. And in fact, like the first draft that I gave to my editor, she like returned it to me and was like, I see what you're trying to do here, but like you're trying

to protect your mother so much that like I have no sense of who she is. And you have to, you have to give me more. And so I think that like I always wanted to push against trying to be honest and truthful about what the experience of like being raised by this person who was really smart and intelligent and funny but also really sick and fucked up. stop and without portraying her life as a graphic disaster area, how could I, what is honest without being overly graphic and hurting the people that are alive? And so there are lots of stories I could have told about things that happened to my brothers or whatever that I chose not to because I felt like, well, if they want to write about it, they can do that. Right, but also, I mean, yes, I mean, obviously, that what you're asking. I mean, I mean, obviously that what you're asking.

I mean, kind of, I mean, sort of, you know, but yes, but I think that I guess, I guess what I mean, what I'm sort of getting at is and what interests me is this idea that you've got to form a narrative in your head and then, and, and and well one is that obviously like you have to take things out as well put them in but but your narrative is structured in a way that is extremely unusual in the sense that it's a book that's partially about you well it's a lot about you right it's a lot about Zelda yeah and your early experiences with her but it's a lot about you. Right. It's a lot about Zelda.

Yep. And your early experiences with her, but it's also about your relationship with your mother. Yeah. And how do you, Mrs. maybe a really rudimentary dumb question to ask, but how do you, how do you make that narrative work

or why was it important to make that narrative work versus others that you could have written about? Like you could have written a book that's just about, okay, it's the first year I've just had a kid, it's the first year I've just had a kid. It's the first time I've ever had a kid. Yeah. She had super fucked up. Yeah.

And here's what I'm going to tell you about it. All of it. So, this could have been like the 10 things you need to know. Yeah. Or it could have been, it could have been, it could have been, you know, how I felt during my first year of motherhood or whatever it is. But instead it's this like, you know, it's this travel law. Yeah. And like, so I think that first of all, that's been done a bunch.

What's one? Like just the mother, I became a mother memoir. Do you have a title for a book I could read about that? Is there something that you would recommend? Yeah. One that I put off reading for a really long time is called, I think it's called, A Little Life, It's by Rachel Cusk. I love Cusk. So I put off reading it for a super long time because very, very early on in my writing about Zelda on the All, someone was like, oh, it's just like this. Like, yeah, it's like you're

writing reminds me of hers. And so while I was writing the book, I read all of her fiction, which almost none of it has to do with her being a mother. And only her recent books, which have made her very, very, very famous and sort of, she's like ascended to the highest literary circles in America. Yeah. But I read most of her very early fiction, the entire time I was writing the book because I was trying to put off, writing her motherhood memoir.

You don't rip her off. Yeah, because I had heard that her writing was akin to mine. And when I read it, it is. When you read something good though, also it's like if you're in the midst of, I mean, if anything, it's like, you don't wanna read something that is, you're like, oh yeah, this is exactly how you feel, because you're like writing the thing too.

Yeah, but also it's like, you know, when if you're painting, you know, you don't want to be staring at a Picasso, you know, you want to do your own thing. Right, so I read almost no nonfiction for like two years. Yeah, but I mean, I think- When I was in some books you read during that period, you can just give me an adventure title. Well, as I said, I read all of Rachel Cusk, which there's a lot of knowledge.

The fiction. The fiction. Yeah, she wrote tons of fiction. She wrote, you know, probably ten novels. Did you read any science fiction? No, then I, the only other, I read a couple of like true crime. And I also read a lot of canal scarred which I kind of also stopped doing because it turns out is also like sort of a mommy blogger. He's a very mediocre writer. All right, go back to what you were saying. I'm just kidding about canal's gorgher.

No, he, yeah, he's kind of like a mommy blogger. So I sort of cut him off as well. All right, okay, sorry. So you were saying. So I think that like that's been done. It's been done really well. And I'm not sure how much I had to add to that. Like my pregnancy was hard,

but it wasn't the hardest pregnancy. I didn't struggle to conceive. That's right. You know, like... Boom! I mean, I, you know, I had it relatively easy, even though for me, like, it felt very hard. Well, you had pre-eclampsia, which almost killed you. Yes, I almost died, but like, and it's almost died, but like, well, we're fine now.

I mean, she had, she only had the umbilical cord wrap around her throat three times. No big deal. By the time I started writing about her, I knew that like the pregnancy was not going to kill me or her. We were alive, we were thriving and what I was most interested in were the sort of observational, complicated feelings I had about my identity. And I felt like these must be, to some extent, both distinctive to me and also universal to everyone. And I think that we've talked a lot about like why now,

like why are people doing this now. I think that like it is to some extent like a privilege of having the time to observe. You know, I feel like my mom would have had profound observations about my childhood, but she didn't have the time because she had like another child 14 months after I was born. Right. And so like with Zelda, I was like constantly

just like observing her, writing things down, paying attention, and in awe of every little development in a way that both fascinated me and also made me feel like I wanted to kill myself. And I felt like when I expressed that, people responded to it in a way that was gratifying and made me feel like less alone, but also made me feel like, oh, this is actually like performing a service to people. The communication of those. Yeah. Yeah. I felt like, oh, like people don't actually talk this way. But, but, but, but how, but why? I mean, you guys, I guess, well, look, I mean, I know because it's what's in your head and in your heart, but it was important to talk about your mother in, in contact. Yeah. I think that's something you're experiencing, your mother in, in, in relationship to your experience in contact. Yeah, I think that's something that you're experiencing that your mother in relationship

to your experience with Zelda. Yeah, I think that like, it for me was a like logical, natural progression, which is not logical or natural to anyone else. Correct. I wrote around my mother for a really long time, like I think that most women, when they

give birth, the women who like physically give birth to a child, they, if their mother is alive, will become closer to their mothers. And I became closer to my father to a certain extent. I feel like I became closer to your mothers. And I became closer to my father, to a certain extent. I feel like I became closer to your parents. But I think that like my mother was dead. And I started to like think about her and her life, not just like that she was an alcoholic and that she died, but I was like very suddenly presented with like the facts of her life where I was like, oh, she was, you know, 20 when she had my brother. Right.

And she was 29 by the time she had my youngest brother and there were four of us. And I, you know, it started to like seem, I started to wonder like, what did she want for her life? Did she think about her life that way? And so I started to think about her alcoholism in a different way, because I started to think like, maybe she like had a reason to be sad,

and maybe it was us. Well, you can't blame yourself for that. No, not like blaming myself, but like, maybe her life was like not what she wanted it to be. Well, that can't blame yourself for that. No, not blaming myself, but maybe her life was not what she wanted it to be. Well, that's right. I mean, that's something that I've always thought when you told me stories about her

and in the book reading the book is that you do get the impression of or the picture of a person who has, to your point earlier about how women in the 60s were like, I'm going to have a kid. She may have not wanted to have a kid, but that really was not an option in that era. Right. She found herself pregnant at some point early in her relationship with my father. Yes. And then she had a child. And then she was married. And so she never really had a life between like living with her parents and then living in a dorm and then like being in a house

with my dad and a child. Right. And I think that, It's crazy progression. And I think that like symbolically, I know that like people think of memoirs as like, you're just like, you know, shitting out the truth. But like I think that like the reason I wrote

about the abortion at the very beginning of the story is that I do think that my mother, who was like a Catholic woman, who probably was not really that into abortion, like politically, I think that the reason she did it and took me to, and helped me to get it was I do think that she wanted me to have options that she felt like she didn't have. I think she saw it and was like, okay, I have a 17 year old daughter, my only daughter who is now pregnant and like she could be on the same road that I was on.

And that was complicated for me to think about because I thought like well maybe that means she like regrets the life that we've had. Right. But I do think that she wanted me to have options she didn't feel like she had for some reason. So the book is out now. It's on Penguin. Unfortunately. You can't see it. On Penguin. It's on. It's on Penguin. No, it's all by Penguin. No, it's with Penguin. Released by Penguin Books. And now you're doing a little bit of a book tour. We're gonna go to Pittsburgh.

Yeah. I'm gonna interview you. I'm gonna have the same conversation. But worse. Which with just as much drinking and then in less preparation. And then you're going to San Francisco. A big thing out there. Then you're going to, you'll be in Tokyo, the Lynn, Paris, and Germany. But my understanding is you're just going to the parts of Germany that the most, the Nazi, most Nazi part of Germany. And then I'm going to Israel. And then you're going to go to Israel to make a mess for being in Germany. Anyhow, but no, so any final... I don't know, I don't know what it is. I really thought that we were gonna talk about...

I don't know, like... I don't know, like... What? What? You know, your questions are much different than I thought they would be. Are they? Yeah. Well, I've been drinking for several hours, so...

Right. Like, what did you think of? I don't know, I thought they would be. Are they? Yeah. Well, I've been drinking for several hours. Right. Like, what did you think about? I don't know. I thought you would talk about like our relationship whenever we were parenting and stuff. That's something the book. You know what it is? It is. It is.

Oh, really? Oh, yeah. About how I like would have a conemption fit in the middle of the night. It is. Is it? I guess I should reread it. You need it.

Yeah. You should. You need it. I've just forgotten about that part because it's so very sad. Oh yeah. You deleted your memory of my portrayal of your rage. Oh, am I, am I, am I, am I portrayed as a rage-filled person in the book?

No, I actually think I was really judged. You omitted. I think you omitted, as I was saying earlier, some things about my personality. I mean, I included some. Degree benefit to a great benefit to me. I included a few items. All right, anyhow, the book, now my heart is full,

by Laura June is out available today on wherever a book, wherever a book can be purchased. No one knows. I recommend you get on Amazon. Oh, oh, I should also say this is very important. There's an audio book version of now my heart is full. No, don't read it by the author. Read by Laura June and I have to say red beautifully to me when I heard it and I said this out loud. I said to you. I said you could do this for a living. Except for I have a bad voice. I said you could do this for a living if your voice wasn't a pile of dog shit that makes me want to fall into every time I hear it.

You know the first thing, the first thing I really remember about you is that you were like editing or like sort of like doing some production on my bands demos and you were like, oh fuck, you really hiss your asses so much. Did I say that? Yeah. You know, I don't cut corners, okay? I don't pull punches.

I, but I don't think I hiss them anymore, right? Do I? I don't know. I don't even know what that means. I mean, what you hear, oh yeah, you know you started that. Oh, okay. You know you sound like you're whistling all the time. You're non-stop whistle

I'll list you've a list and a bad voice. No, that's not true. You have a beautiful voice your tones are dull set as they say and I love your voice. I love hearing okay. We get a wrap this up. Goodbye. All right. Well listen Thank you for doing this interview. I appreciate you taking the time. Yeah. And I think everybody should go and get this book.

Even if you don't care about children or addiction or death or joy or abortions or wacky Wednesdays, even if none of those things are interested to you, I recommend you listen to. Or the 90s or Madonna. Yeah, Madonna or the 90s or Madonna or the 90s or or I guess my rage filled or Josh Polsky. My style of parenting. You want to you want to insight into my life? You know, forget about Laura for a second. I know it's a memoir of hers, but if you want a little But what I'm like in my downtime, this is your opportunity.

Uh-huh. Anyhow, thank you for doing this. You're welcome. Any time. Okay. I love you. I love you too. Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with Bortomaro. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best. Though I've just been informed that your family is publishing a tell-all memoir, and they

are not omitting anything. you