Tomorrow - 129: Amanda Hess and the Fembot Army

Episode Date: August 24, 2018

If only there were something happening on a national and global scale for Josh and Ryan to discuss this week. Oh wait, literally everything is happening at once – including some insane VMA moments from Madonna, Juice Wrld, and Post Malone. Then the pair chat with the New York Times' Critic-at-Large Amanda Hess about the rise of fembots, our obsession with hands, and why it's only a matter of time before the Twitter mob comes for you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow I'm your host Josh Wittipolsky. Today on the podcast, we discuss a lore, Malawi, in French 75s. I don't want to waste one minute. Let's get right into it. All right, Ryan, we're back. It's another week. Nothing's happened. Just a very quiet nothing at all low low news week Definitely this week definitely did not include a thousand people tweeting out the same tweets every yes hour on the hour We definitely did not include massive developments in the Trump collusion case definitely did not include a story from a Zalia Banks about Elon Musk it drives,

that is, a Zalia Banks is having the best week ever. I'm sorry, Zalia Banks, listen, I watched several a Zalia Banks videos last night. I know she's very problematic, I know. I know she's a talent. She's the original person you can't believe is saying they're a Trump supporter, being a Trump supporter.

She's like a pro-Docanya in that respect. She's a massive troll. I don't know what she's up. But she's also very talented. It's clear to me, and we wrote a thing about her that she does not get afforded the kind of purchase for her mistakes that a lot of male artists do,

but that aside, that was a while ago, but that aside, I'm not gonna comment. I'm not saying that she's a good person or ago, but that aside, I'm not going to comment, I'm not saying that she's a good person or bad person, she has good ideas or bad ideas. She's very talented, I can tell you that. She's a talented performer, a talented rapper, singer, whatever. But she certainly has some knack for generating interest in his daily banks. I had like a two-hour conversation at the bar about her and Amarosa and their like ability to play us

in the same way and the way that they get talked about as women of color and like nobody's defending them as like having done nothing wrong or being unproblematic, but we have to give it up for the sheer hustle. Well, I mean, that's the, but we have to give it up for the sheer hustle. Well, I mean, that's the, but that is to me is the, I mean, I hadn't thought about the Amaro's thing and obviously there's connection,

interesting connection points there. They both occupy a very specific kind of, our failure is an archetype there. It's like, they're kind of the villain in some, I mean, literally Amaroosa was the villain in the- And given the choice between like being not taken seriously and like doing villainous things, but being the main topic of discussion,

I'm not saying what I would pick what they picked, but like, it makes sense. But as all your banks has become the hero, I believe in the latest, in this latest chapter, I mean, I just implore, if you have not seen, I implore you to go. She did like a huge Instagram story that was like her, I believe, I'm a little confused about all of it.

I haven't dug all the way in, but I'm not. She was trapped in Elon Musk's house. But part of it is like, Comverse Six mentioned. Yeah, she, part of it is like her conversations with Grimes, which she's having on signal, which I was like, this is just the greatest ad for Signal Ever, I literally started using Signal with Laura. I was like, we have to use this now

because it's cool, like this Grimes and Azalea Banks. I was like, what I used to talk shit about other people in my industry. Sure. But I think there's also some conversations with Elon. I can't quite make it out. But basically, Azalea Banks is like, I was invited to hang out at his mansion by Grimes.

Grimes, who I guess they're like buddies. They were gonna collab. They're gonna do a collab, oh. And this is hardly the most important story of the week, but it's absolutely the most interesting in my opinion. And I guess this all coincided with like, I mean, Azalea Banks is sort of like, she's like, you know, Grimes wanted, like Grimes and Elon Musk kind Grimes and Elon Musk have a three way or something.

But I guess this is also at the moment when Elon Musk decides to tweet that he's taking the company private. And he sets 420. And Grimes is like, I told him to set the stock price at 420 because it's funny or whatever. And now he's being investigated by the SEC. So that's cool.

And it's like, first up Grimes, investigated by the SEC, so that's cool. And it's like, first up, Grimes, your fall from grace has been swift and complete in my opinion. Yes, swift and hard. Like I really am like, we were watching some Grimes videos last night too, and I was like, this is a bummer, because like, I really enjoyed a lot of Grimes' music.

And now, every time I hear it, I'm just like, all I can think about is how she kind of sucks now. And it's most artists who are talented, less is more from like seeing their personal life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, I don't really need to hear what you think for the most part.

I mean, you gotta be really smart and good and not horrible to just talk and not have me feel bad and like you ruined your art. Yeah, basically, there's only so many people who can get away with it. But yeah, but like then there's this thing like she was trapped and they took her phone and his six mansions connected together. He was trapped. She like scourging for food, sending smoke signals

to gay Twitter trying to find grimes or you know, I don't know where they were. I guess they were dealing with like, he is like, I guess she claims he was like on a said when he was tweeting. Yeah. Listen, here's the thing, Elon Musk did a, do you know what is his handle? It's MK, it's Mark Hez, Brown, MKBHD, Mark Hez, Brown Lee, is that the right last name? Brown Lee, and I was just like, I'm like, is this the name of this channel or not?

MKBHD, correct? BHD, MK, BHD, sir, I should know this. Like, he did some stuff the verge while ago, but like, he's this like kind of very popular YouTube vlogger, does tech stuff. He had a sit down interview with Elon Musk like a couple of days ago. I watched like a few minutes of it.

Elon Musk seems completely out of his fucking mind, like definitely either on drugs, or I mean, in many ways like was reminiscent of like Kanye's whole like bipolar episode, like the TMZ thing, like watching him, I was like, wow, there's like so much going on here that feels similar to the, he just seems extreme. I will use my, I will use my expertise from the reality TV arts to tell you once more that like Partially it's a thing where like having an amazing imagination doesn't qualify you as you said this He's got an amazing imagination, but it doesn't qualify you to be like a CEO or run a business or it doesn't make you a genius Tell me about it. It's all that's one thing about it There's also when you have money and fame and access and basically every door in the whole world is open to you for everything

But you're still like a mortal person with a flashy body, and you can take drugs and everything. There's that thing that happens also on reality TV where people just become disconnected from reality. I mean, we saw it with Madonna at the VMAs, which I want to get to. Oh my God. But at some point, someone is so detached from reality, and nothing can ground them because nothing, period, like they have to, you have to move to a country where no one knows who

you are with a limited budget and then you would eventually float back down to normal. So yeah, this is why I think there are so many celebrities that at some point they get super religious because I think it's like you kind of are like, oh, what's left? There's no concrete. You're Alexander Quinn.

You gotta go in. You're Alexander the Great. You've conquered everything there is to conquer. Now you have money, you have fame, you have drugs and sex whenever you want it. Everything is at your fingertips. But it's clear that, but you see this on Real HDV at a certain point they have so much money and theme

and their mainstays on their shows. And they've got hundreds of thousands of fans that will agree or disagree no matter what they do. So it doesn't really matter. And they become so detached from reality, they become these weird monsters that you watch and it's bizarre. And I think he's an extreme example of like,

it's wild that he held it together as long as he did. Yeah, I mean, but here's the thing, like I would not deny that Elon Musk is a really brilliant guy. I think he's an obviously brilliant person. I think more than anything. But that's the least important thing to me about a person. No, no, no, I'm brilliance can be found. Oh, it's important, but it has to be tempered

with a person being a human. Yeah, you have to, just because your brilliant does me, you don't need to have, you don't need humanity, right? And I think what he's demonstrated is that. Dolly Parton never flew completely out of doubt. And by the way, I have a comment about that when we talk about Madonna, which I also would like to talk about. But yeah, I just think it's like,

this whole scenario is like, I mean, it would not be hard for Elon Musk to do better. It would not be hard for him to do a little bit. Like five or 10% less of the stuff that he's doing would go a long way to everybody. Like you don't have to jump in on every crisis. Yeah. You probably need to be more discreet in like what you're doing.

Like just- You don't need to tweet every thought. Don't tweet. As I said before, when I was arguing with him or whatever, it was the same thing, Renek and I just think your thoughts. Even I shouldn't be tweeting. Yeah. As I think we've learned.

I barely tweet anymore. Don't Twitter's bad. It's a disease and we should all hope that. We need to get off of it. We need to detach from the answer. And the answer is not to do text posts on Instagram stories. Guys, like I've seen that pivot a lot. Oh my God. Oh my God. Here's my least favorite thing that is happening on the internet right now. People screenshotting tweets and putting

them on Instagram. I'm on and shut the fuck up with that shit. I don't need to see Twitter on Instagram. I'm on Instagram to not see Twitter. Yeah. Don't make me see Twitter. We learn this lesson when people were pumping their tweets onto Facebook. It's just like listen. There should be a filter. I listen, there should be a filter. I mean, there should be a thing that there's like, if you detect a tweet, like, don't show me anything, it looks like a screenshot of a tweet. All right, let's talk about Madonna real quick. There's a couple other things I want to get.

Well, top line with the VMAs I got to admit, I've done a 180 on Juice World. I saw that he was hot. So he gave his music another chance. And I like it. I'm trying to think. I feel like there's so much going on. Is he hot? He's, okay, fine. He's cute at least. there's so much going on. Is he hot? He's hot.

Okay, fine. He's cute at least. There's a lot going on with him. He's cutie. Okay, fine. He's world. He's giving me these like panic at the disco. I want to know what's up with the photo edit,

the Amanda LaPore edit, which I'm very, a lot of extreme, suspicious vibes from. That's terrible. And Dave Luscia-Pell is like, she was just chewing the scenery. So we cut her and it's like, dude, I love the picture. She looked way better with her there. And also she's way in the background and it's definitely not overwhelming.

She balanced the shot out. I would love to get some fly on the wall, she, because I feel like something we went down there. But that's beside the point. So the VMAs happen. So I thought like overall the VMAs extremely, I mean, I don't even know what's going on. I mean, they got record low ratings, but also the production value there.

I mean, it was all over the place. I mean, and as someone who's show launch on Sunday had audio going in and out, I publish it and say anything. But for a multi-million dollar company to put on a reward show and you can see empty seats, their cameras aren't ready. Mike's going in and out.

People are talking during presentations. It was weird. Fucking bizarre and radio cities, the worst place to do that. Is that the only venue they could get? It was a mess. I don't know. Okay, so let's get to Madonna. We got a lot of stuff to talk about.

So Madonna did an Aritha tribute and it was an Aritha tribute about Madonna by Madonna, starring Madonna as Madonna with the Donna featuring Madonna, directed by Madonna. Also Madonna like, she just talked about Madonna. Well, here's the thing. We turned it, I turned the film a little off before it happened. I was like, I gotta do something else here, like I have to not.

And then the next day, she came out just like a Malawi princess, full cultural appropriation. It was like, ooh, but here's the thing about Madonna. We were talking about share last week. And like, you know, Laura pointed out, she was like, Laura is a diehard lifelong Madonna fan. Her book opens with a Madonna.

I mean, I love Madonna. I'm gay. I'm gay. Learic's from True Blue. Yeah. And, lifelong Madonna die hard. But like, she was like, Madonna's kind of always been like this.

Like, she's always trying to like prove that she's cool. It was cool when she was an underdog. Yeah, yeah. When she was like, oh, women aren't taken seriously and all the stuff in like, isn't taken seriously. And like, she was like, she, and there was still an element of it that Madonna's like, always trying to like pose.

Truth or dare. Yeah. It's a perfect film. It's great. I mean, it captures a moment in time where Madonna was the most important thing happening. But also is a full of artists that's like fake Madonna, which is perfect for Madonna. I mean, at one point, Warren Beatty goes like, we don't do anything when the cameras aren't

running because what's the point if you're not being seen? Exactly. And it's like, which is probably one of the trueest things that Zerbin said about her and her whole thing, which is fine. Like, that's, she did a thing and she pioneered something. She's like an iconic, I mean, the things great. We were watching Bitcha Madonna last night. We were watching all these videos that are related to things that are happening in the news right now.

And it's like, you know, it sounds like fairly catchy. But it's like, it's Madonna needing to be approved by Diplo and Kanye. And it's like, you invented these people. You should recognize, like, your place in this is not to, like, you don't need them to help you now. Like, they can, they're gonna honor you in a hundred different ways because like they wouldn't really exist without you like There's all these artists that that without Madonna There's a lot of people that would probably would not exist, right?

I mean it started with the Madonna seeing Brittany and Kylie and Christina come so she started wearing the t-shirt Yes, like I love Kylie Minogue or making out with Brittany at the VMAs and it was started to be like okay, but like You you're in your own lane. You don't have to like, it's like, at what point can Madonna just be like, like, think about shares, like shares is shares. Share is always, I'm fucking share. And she's also like, pretty grounded and like real.

Like, parton is another example of what, you know, and I think, and I think, I guess the point is, it's like, you want, it's like, I really, really love Madonna's work in Glora does. And I respect so much of all the stuff she's done, but then it's like, can you just be cool? And I'm not saying she's a terrible person, it's just, it's so glowing and it comes off so hard to watch

and narcissistic and like, and that isn't why we loved you. We loved you because you were champion for yourself, but that's different than narcissism. It's also like, it's also just like, you can feel the palpable kind of like, the need to be, the need to be in like accepted by a lot of everyone. Validation, to be validated by whatever the new thing is.

And it's like, your Madonna. And it's okay that to need to feel your work is validated. It's okay to need to be seen in her. But your Madonna and you have been. So at a certain point, if that hole isn't being filled, that seeking out more of it from us is just annoying. I just think it's like, look, I mean, you know what, like it's funny, I mean, the last,

I think the last great Madonna record was Confessions on a dance floor. Yeah, yeah, what. And I think part of what it's greatness is, is that a lot of that record is like, it's, and not saying that like she always has to do the same thing, but it feels closer to what Madonna wants to be doing,

like then what she, I feel like she thinks she needs to be doing. It was something she actually wanted to say and actually like it occurred to her as a thought and it wasn't made cynically from the point of like this will be a big hit. It was like sort of like Ray of Light was a pivot that wasn't a guarantee.

All of her best pivots weren't guarantees. But also they're grounded. They're also grounded in like, there's been a through line of dance music that like of club music. Yeah. That I think has been very consistent in her. But when you pivot to like a Justin Timberlake collab

in 2005. It was because you just knew it was gonna work or 2007. You just knew it was gonna work. That's why you did it. But it also thought it was- It was nothing to say. I mean, so I'm not trying to knock her artistic judgments. I will knock her like judgments about her frankly trivial.

I mean, that was- I mean, I read the phrase, it's about my life story and one time she heard her and her read the song and so it changed. Oh my God, it was so bad. Okay, anyhow, let's say about the other huge news. Uh-huh. I don't think there's something else, but,

so, I mean, we don't have to spend too much time on this. Oh, two things, actually. So, three things. So, so, Manafort convicted on eight counts of, what is the actual, is it money laundering? Tax fraud. I get tax fraud, right? And then, and then, two minutes later,

like literally two minutes later, Michael Cohen pleads guilty to campaign finance violations, directed at the direction of the now sitting president at the time candidate. There's a debate going on. Here's the debate I've heard. I mean, these are both significant because it, and there's this, this is juror that's been going around

who's like a Trump supporter, who's like, I didn't wanna convict Maniford. I like, I'm all pro Trump, and I think this is a witch hump, but like the evidence was just too strong, and it's like, you were a fucking MAGA hat, and you're like, yeah, this guy's guilty.

It's like, to me, this feels like, I get, it's like, it was like, Tipe of the Iceberg and shit, but like, here's what I really wanna talk about. It's not, in no way surprising that both of, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like,

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it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, like, it many years that have to look at all this stuff and figure it out. There are legions of investigators and lawyers and judges looking at this stuff.

So it's not like some fantasy. So that part of it, whatever. Here's the thing that's crazy to me. The Michael Cohen thing is like, I mean, we're so far past whatever could have been previously considered as proprietists for a president. Just the idea, I mean, think about, I mean, people constantly bring it up

and like think about water grain, and how minor that is. Just think about Clinton. That went to impeachment proceedings. I mean, I think there was, I understand why. But like, where it is in a situation here where the sitting president has had, has lied. I mean, on it completely, on numerous occasions,

to the press, to the public, verbatim, change his story about having one, about having affairs, he defamed these women. You know, he derided them and defamed them publicly. The president of the United States said they were lying and- Possibly even sent them private threats of violence. Um, the, the, uh, you know, that lied about the, had the affairs, um, married candidate

running for president lied about the affairs, aft both during and after, paid, directed his lawyer to pay off someone to silence them in some attempt of collusion or co-huts with the national choir. That's a whole other thing. Did it breaking finance law? And the debate now is we're debating whether or not he can be indicted while he's a sitting president. It's like, the whole fucking thing is nuts.

Just this one little snapshot should be enough for all of Congress to lose their fucking mind. It should be like this person is wildly untrustworthy is lying to us about this. This is the one thing who knows what else he's lying about and has changed his story so many times that you literally cannot take anything he says at face value. How could you possibly trust this person to be the president of the United States of America? Talk about like trust issues. Talk about like values.

And I don't fucking need the nuclear family, but let's be real. The president's held to a different fucking standard. I mean, but it also comes down to, I mean, so if you listen to the slow burn podcast, which I loved from sleep, during the whole Watergate situation, it really came down to, and the thing that politicians

really hammered home over and over again, which was like, you're fundamental right, and you're basically our only button as citizens to control anything about our lives or the world or how the government is around, is voting. And when you start fucking with that, it's different than when you launch a secret illegal drone strike, or it's a completely

different thing because it means that we can't remove you. When you cancel an election, that is a violation of whatever. And so if you fuck with an election, it's a complete violation of our basically our main right, even just from a constitutional perspective. Our main right is like speech, which he's attacked and the ability to vote. So I just think it's crazy that we're having a debate about like, oh, well, can you indict a setting president? And it's like, is anybody just fucking the pain attention to what is actually, are we

aware of the insanity of the situation of you just looking at? And then the second thing I want to say is, and the moment we're going to be talking to Amanda has from The New York Times, but I want to say, I listened to an episode of the Daily, I've been listening to the Daily sporadically, but I listened to this episode a couple of days ago about the family's operations at the border. And I was like basically crying on my drive home listening to it.

Like I think if any, but if there's any person who can listen to the mountain of fucking lies and deception that took place to first cover up what was happening and then to lie about it and cover up to the press once the press got a hold of it, I say, there's anybody who can listen to that. Well, I don't give you a Democrat Republican and hear what the government, our government

is doing to children and not feel destroyed, then you're not a human being. Like, I don't know who, I don't know who can hear it and not feel destroyed. Either you don't know anything about humanity or you are so out of touch with it, like you've lost the fucking thread. But anybody who lets do not feel that the government is doing something

that they are engaged in activities that are very, not only un-American but very damaging and deceptive and not feel like, you know, we have a government that is actively lying to us at every turn. Like, I would be very surprised if you could walk away from listening to it and not feel that way. So I recommend that everybody listens to it. I think there's a second part that they're doing. Maybe they've already done it. But I just want to say, say, I think we're in,

I mean, we really are in the shit now. Like, there's no doubt in my mind, and if people don't fucking get out and vote in this midterm, in a serious way, like I really am afraid for what it comes after that. Well, before we move on, I do want to bring up the new story of the nationwide strike that prisoners are currently on because of basically their subject to modern slavery.

And that's another demographic of people that don't have a right, a right of representation in order to change that or reform like the imprisoned, prison industrial complex. And it's another interesting situation where things have gotten so bad for them because they have literally no representation, no voice, nobody to speak for that outside of their own families, and most of the people who end up there are the most powerless among us. And it's an example of like, I think we're reaching a boiling point where like, there's only so much people

can take from an oppression standpoint. Yeah, I know, I mean, it's crazy. It's not. Okay, this is an extremely dark note. Dark, very dark note. But check out Juice World. Problematic. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Also great job, Ariana. Gotta get this story.

God is a woman. What is going on with Ariana Grande? I don't know. We'll talk about that next week. Okay. All right. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back with Amanda Hess. So don't go anywhere. What happens if you play monopoly with real money? What does space sound like?

What happens when you overwork yourself? Do you believe that work related stress has increased? It reflects the fact of how little value we place on the well-being of human beings. The Outline World Dispatch. Every Monday through Thursday, we bring you a new story on the theme of power, culture, or the future. And, picked from theoutline.com. Find us an Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify, your Amazon Alexa Flash briefing, or wherever you download your podcasts.

Also, you can say, okay, Google, play me the news, and we're right there. Oh my God, yeah! Make your mornings a little weirder. Our guest today is a critic at large at the New York Times and a does a show called Interneting, a video show that you can watch. I'm of course talking about the very talented Amanda Hess.

Amanda, thank you for being here. Hi guys, thanks for having me. Just prior to us starting this conversation, whichever we're gonna be talking about now, we were talking about bathrooms and the general discomfort of using a bathroom. And I was going on and on about the experience for a man, which I feel like you probably don't know that much about.

I actually have you guys read the Ben learner novel 1004? No. Okay, so there's this anecdote in the novel where these two guys are talking about this thing that sometimes happens among men We're like one guy at the urinal is like Undoing his pants and like taking his penis out like it's like super heavy It's like like I have to I know what you're talking. I mean like it's so hard Yeah, like so that's like the extent of like putting it's like putting a rock down on a table

You're like I just brought this boulder in from outside. Yeah, it's that's that's like the extent of my knowledge. It's like putting a rock down on a table. You're like, I just brought this bolt or it from outside. Right, right, right. Yeah, that's the kind of thing. I was just saying that, I mean, we were just, just the idea that, I mean, we were talking about interior design before this, which led into a conversation about bathrooms. But I had not, I don't think about that much. But it's one of those things where it's like,

what a weird, just such a weird thing to, to the way men are expected to use bathrooms versus the way women are expected to use bathrooms, which is like, obviously there are physical reasons, like I can, it's easier for me to stand in pee, but it's not a comfortable idea. Anyhow, so it has nothing to do with anything that we may be talking about in the future, but I, to say some context. I wanted to give the listener a taste of the mood in the room right now, which is we've all been deep in in a bathroom conversation. So Amanda, you largely write about, completely, about things that are happening on the internet, on in a digital realm, would you say? Yeah, I'd say I'm mostly right about that.

So tell me that, but what else? Like what are areas of, and I'm obviously I'm familiar with your work. Yeah, yeah. Some other people who are listening may not be. So what is your palette that you're painting with? So I started out in my career writing about gender stuff, and then I kind of switched to write about internet culture stuff, and now I write about both

of those things, and sometimes at the same time. Yeah, that's like, it's an intersection that has become increasingly viewable, visible. Like, there's a lot of conversation about the way we behave, right? Like, this gender, it's about like the way we behave online that's like, you read about mobs recently, online mobs.

And a lot of that is highly gendered, right? I mean, you look at the MRA movement and in cells and, you know, it's like... Yeah, I think it's also, I mean, I'm very comfortable with what I'm writing about at the times right now, but because of who I am, which is a younger person at the time, which is little crazy, actually, because I'm 33. And a younger one... You're the youngest person at the times. Yeah. But I'm not among the older people at the times, which was not true at previous places that I had been at. So you're saying you've gone from being the older person to the younger person?

Yeah. That's interesting. Which is kind of nice. That's cool. Yeah. I should get a job at a place where everybody's super old, so it'll make me feel like I'm in the prime of my life. Right. But it also means that sometimes you know if there are stories that are relevant to young women or stories that are relevant to internet culture, like people come to me and talk to me about them and ask me to weigh it. So when Amy Schumer's new movie came out, I feel pretty one of the editors at the times, even though I'm not a film writer and I'm not a film critic there suspected that I might have something interesting to say about it. And I ended up writing something that was about

that movie, but also all these other different cultural forces, including Instagram, that were practicing something that I ended up calling beauty standard denialism, which is this idea that looks don't matter anymore. And it's what's on the inside the counts, but also all of these images that we're being shown are like featuring incredibly beautiful people. Right. Like giving an example of that kind of image. Um, so, it's like the no makeup photos where it's like Kylie Jenner's like, we're even Snapchat filters just for you go brain. Or like, um,

Weight Watchers doesn't talk about losing weight anymore. Even though that's it's still called Weight Watchers. It talks about like wellness and becoming healthier, but it's still really about losing weight. It's really good for losing weight too. I have to say I lost a lot of weight using it. I mean, that's what it is for. Not a lot, but.

I mean, DJ Khaled is their spokesperson. Yeah, they got to cut that out. But like, no one's going to happen. He's going to get really skinny. Well, it's a women's brand and he, I don't know, it's not. It's a brand. Well, it's a feminized brand run by women. I mean, traditionally, it's they shouldn't hire someone

who won't give a woman head, sorry. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a good point. Holy shit. I mean, that's as Julie Clousner has been talking about this on our podcast hours a week, every week for like months. I literally did what never made. Could it matter because I forgot about that?

Yeah, me too. And like, her whole thing is Clousner, Clousner instead of Colled. It's just really interesting. Like, that's a good connection. I'm sure they don't have a strong opinion about that. Maybe they should. I don't know. Because I don they don't have a strong opinion about that. Maybe they should. I don't know. Because I don't want way watchers get in your bedroom.

I mean, if it's gonna help, it helps get people ahead that I guess, why not? So, okay, is that, so is the idea that, okay, so I guess I wanna go, I'm like sort of a little bit confused about this, but also highly curious. So, is this like, I'm trying to think of where we come in, where I come in on this, where I'm trying to understand it. Is it the no makeup photos? Like, does that fall into this category where it's like,

look, it's okay to not wear makeup, and it's like the most beautiful woman in the world who's like on the cover of magazines, not wearing makeup? Is that part of this, or is that separate from this idea? Yeah, no, I think that's part of it. I think it's also like this selective championing of women who do not look what we would call like traditionally beautiful, but the rest of like, and maybe that's one of 12

magazine covers in a year and the rest of them are just like what we've always seen. Like you put Lena Dunham on once and then you can have a million genders and get away with that. It buys you the ability to keep doing that. It's interesting. I mean, so we do the story about skincare which is like kind of like it's a con. The whole thing is like predicated on all the like people are like, oh it's like about self-care and wellness and you know it's like getting toxins out of your body and blah, blah, blah. And it's all about like taking care of you.

But actually, it's still like a very reflective of these sort of classic ideas of female beauty and the way that traditionally men look at women and not like about it. But it's been couched in this language of you doing it for yourself. And it's all about feeling good and blah, blah, blah. I mean, that's the fashion of the 90s, which is like,

I dress from myself and my friends. I don't dress for men. Right. Sex and the city stuff, which has value, it just we have to couch that like the male gays is where a lot of those styles originate. But it seems like it's become more complicated because there's so much gazing going on. I know. Like, I actually, I feel like in some, obviously the male gaze is still in the mix, but I feel

like in a lot of ways, especially on Instagram, which so many of those communities, it's like men are not involved. They're not looking at the things, they're not in the photos, but there is this kind of like consumerist gaze, I feel like. We're now, I'm looking at a photo of a woman who has styled herself, and I tap on it and it opens up all of these logos that I can click on and buy like the $800 dress or whatever. And first, like, make up gurus. Yeah, the makeup videos are like this.

I watched them, I mean, of course. I watched tons of them. Yeah, but like, and so I, but I had only, I only recently, not really recently, but in the last couple of years, understood what was going on in the makeup videos. And it was really great. It blew my mind.

I wasn't aware of the level of, it's so heavily product-focused, and so there's so many of them, and they're so like, there's such a wide variety of like minor variations that it's like, it's such an obvious like opportunity like from a commerce perspective, but those videos are an entire world. I mean, they're an entire world under themselves,

and it is literally all about gazing at someone and also like learning how to be gazed at, which is like a very internet phenomenon. I mean, we've turned most of the internet into hot or not. I don't know if any of you remember the hot or not the website, I think it was a website, basically. And it was like, you put your picture on it, and then people would say whether you were hot or not,

it's literally what Tinder is. And it feels like what a lot of the other parts of the internet have become. Right. And I mean, when you talk about skincare, lot of the other parts of the internet have become. Right. And I mean, there, when you talk about skincare, like one of the places that has practiced this thing is the magazine Allure. So they last year, I think, they had a cover that was called the anti-aging issue or something. Like anti-antion?

Yeah, the editor of Allure, like, promised that they were no longer going to use that term. And Helen Mirren was on the cover. So there are no longer calling products anti-aging, but they're still advertising anti-aging products. They're just calling them products for advanced age or for all ages. Radiant saluminating. They just have a new name for it, is that the idea? Yeah, which is crazy to me. So how much, I mean, how much time do you spend on a regular basis just sitting and thinking about things that are happening on the internet?

Is this like for you, is this like a daily thing that you were based on? Like your job is essentially, like I see things happening on the internet all the time, like this is fucking ridiculous, but I don't necessarily have to talk about it, or think about it, or write about it, but I feel like I'm like podcast. Well, no, but I mean,

yeah, I know what you mean. She's doing a different level. Well, yes. And so like how much, like, this is a two part question. One is like how much are you just like looking at the internet? Like just because that's your job is like

to kind of understand like what is happening on it? Part of it at least. I mean Like just because that's your job is like to kind of understand like what is happening on it? Part of it at least. I mean, I guess what I'm asking is like, do browse a lot. Now, but then the second part is like, what is a thing that's emerging now? What are things that are, or things that are emerging now that you see that are trend lines

that are, that are new or at least new to you? Yeah. I mean, I don't think I'm using the internet anymore than a typical person my age is and it's kind of There's a bit of a paradox because in order to write something and to think about something I need to like Not be constantly on the internet right because it's very distracting to me You know, how do you write like what do you do right in and do you have some some way of writing where you're not distracted by the internet?

No. Like you just write, do you just write in a Google Doc? I am, I'm definitely not, I mean, sometimes I think people ask me that question is if I'm going to give them advice, and I would not advise anyone to do what I do. What do you do?

Like part of it is like, I write a lot of stuff at night, even though I have like a job, basically, because I find it less distracting, because fewer people are contacting. How late at night? Like anywhere from 9 to 3. Yeah, that's the corridor. No, you're right.

I mean, the best time is like when everybody else is asleep. Yeah, I mean, you have a kid, so that probably makes it annoying to die in soccer. Well, she goes to bed at 8 o'clock work. Yeah. So after 8, it's party time in our house. It's full on, I'm just drinking until I pass out. But no, but I've done a lot of writing. I mean, this is my whole life, sorry,

because I want to hear more about your process. But when I used to work on music all the time, my whole schedule was like, I'd wake up at noon when I didn't have a real job. And I would like hang out with friends and do whatever. And then like at night time, I would start working and I'd work from like nine o'clock till like four in the morning.

Because no one can bother you. And I'm still that way, still kind of programmed that way. So from, so you predominantly write at night. And then I'll do, you know, I'll go to meetings in the day and do other things during the day. And it's not like I'm doing this every night. I'm not like a slave. Right.

But I also feel like part of my job is deciding what not to write about. So usually what will happen is like something will come across my transom. And I like usually be able to tell if it's something that I feel like I have some expertise on and also can say something new about that I haven't said a hundred times before and that's kind of in the sweet spot. And then there are a bunch of things that just don't fit either of those categories.

Like what? You mean something that like you wouldn't, you're not like. Like Laurel versus Yanny. Oh God. Oh no. Or something. But what about the meta, our conversation're not like like Laurel versus Yanny. Oh god. Oh no. Or something. But what about the meta or a conversation we should have about Laurel versus Yanny? The one the one that you guys had. Do we have that? I'm trying to think what do we do?

What do we do about Laurel and Yanny? Well you guys talked about how it's this glut of just stories about Laurel. I mean that's what we did on the pot. We just read out a million headlines. Do we do that? We read out like 28 headlines in a row. Oh did you did you hit the on the pod did on the podcast. We just read out a million headlines. Do we do that? We read out like 28 headlines in a row on the podcast. Oh, did you, you said you had to be on the podcast or on the site. Yeah, yeah on the podcast. Oh, okay.

Oh, you've listened to the podcast, okay. I didn't know if you've listened to the podcast or not. I always assume people don't, because I'm like, don't punish yourself. But, but. I'm a fan of Ryan. Yeah. Ah.

Well, well, well, Josh. Get out of my interview. Well, bye. Okay, it's understandable. He's great. But yeah, Laurel and Yanny, yes, that's the, I guess that's the meta conversation. There's probably another one, but I mean, there's another meta conversation, which is like, I mean, it's sort of the thing where everyone, well, it's the anti-take, so everyone will

say like, this Lena Dunham pet thing is problematic. She keeps killing her pets. Then is the take of, don't write about that because your pet stuff is private and she adopts a lot of elderly and problematic pets as a person to, with the resources. Then there's the anti-empty take. Yeah, we get to the point where it's like,

should we write it all? Is the written word up for the, like the obsolete? Maybe we need inner community forums. You're like, what are we talking about, DSA members? I get into that zone when I'm writing things too, where it's like, I get to the place where I'm like, where I keep advancing the argument,

and then I'm like, what is the meaning of life? Yes, no, no. I shoulda even write this. Every night I do this with comedy, where I'm, I do my own little nannet, where I'm like, is comedy, does comedy exist? Do I have anything to say? What if I did?

Would it come anybody? Like, have you read our in the net piece? I did. I have, I keep reading talk about it. There's so much to say. I read it. Yeah. Well, we don't have talk about it.

I don't have to actually see it. I haven't seen it either because I've never read my own either. I've just read the take. And I'm just gonna say, I haven't seen it because every time I watch the trailer, I'm like, nope. I don't want to, I don't want to watch.

Yeah, it's like a doubter. It's a great thing if you're really into comedy and you're a queer person who has had trauma to hear this woman's perspective. It doesn't apply to everybody. It's not the way to analyze all of it. And the fact that it makes everybody feel good because now they get us is like a tough,

that's a tough thing. So you felt that the piece that we published, the Peter Miley's perspective. Had a ton of value. Yeah. But it makes me think sometimes like, a lot of people write about comedy or analyze comedy. Even the audience is that listen to comedy,

don't necessarily understand everything that we're doing or trying to do or say, not to say that we're amazing. It's just that we're so deep in it. And sometimes I end up doing that thing late at night where I, in this thing where I'm like, why even do this then? If people, if it's not accessible

and maybe it doesn't have any value, and if it does have value, you use people, you use it in the wrong way. Like a lot of stuff like Sarah Silverman stuff was done with the intention and perspective of not being racist, and it had the net value of a lot of racism, and she's had to admit that

and then retire a ton of those bits. But you end up when you write about the stuff and you try to analyze it, you can, there's a middle ground between over analyzing and analyzing analysis that's so hard to stay in. I think it's, on your point about the end, just thinking about the,

and this is not about Laurel and Yanny, it's like I totally understand why. I, here's the, I can totally get and I love a person who's like, I'm not going to write about this, whether or not I have a fucking take at all, because there are many takes, but it's not worth, some of the people always have an opinion on something.

The reason one that drove me, I don't know if you did anything on this or not, was the woman who was like a creep-shotting like the couple on the plane, plane bay. I guess it's the name of that. With Rosie. That's Rosie something. I do think there's like an increased thirst.

I mean, yes, of course we are the boarded work generation. Like I understand like this is a thing that has happened on the internet. But like I do think there's also an increased thirst lately for anything that is not Donald Trump. Like this is not Trump related and it's like, oh, like I will spend more time with this. Like I will write a take about plane bay

and how she's invaded these people's privacy. And I mean, I was kind of obvious right off the bat that it was like an awful thing to do. But it also feels really good to look at the parts of ourselves, we have a sense is negative. We have a sense that the way we turn our entire lives into content and other people's lives into content, we get retweets when we say this is the thing that my mom

said to me, which was problematic and everybody shits on your mom and you're like, I know that what she said was problematic, but turning something my mom said to me that could have been a private conversation into content doesn't feel good. Then when we get a really clear example of it, it feels so good to be like, I knew you were fucking wrong.

I knew, and you get to tack apart yourself. Have you turned a piece of your mom's dialogue with you into content? I talk about my dad being a Trump supporter on this podcast a lot, and I worry about it because it should be private conversations that I help him with, and I don't want people to prejudge and label him even though that is something true. And I walk the line of like, how much do I, how do you not prejudge and label somebody who's, I don't know, I don't want to try this to do a political thing. Sure. But I just say, I feel like, I feel like I'm

cute and I'm saying you've made a statement with your Trump vote. I mean, it's not fair that his son is allowed mouth with a podcast and another person that he knows his son isn't. And I don't want to beat somebody who like brings hate to him. Sure. But I was just one thing about the Trump thing. I just feel like voting for the Democrat was like not so much. I mean, I wasn't really making a statement except like this party has more, it's like leaning more towards like the things that I desire to see in the world. And it's like if it were Hillary or Bernie, it honestly wouldn't have mattered a great deal to me. Or you could have been some other Democrat. It's just like I know the general vibe of the party. I feel like the Trump vote is hard,

it's hard not to see it as a more statement-filled type of vote. Sure. Like, it's just, there's a lot more going on there that is... I feel like most of the, many of the people who wrote about plain Bay were not actively choosing to write about plain Bay. Not that their editors told them they had to write a plain bay story, but their editors might tell them you have

to write a story a day or two stories a day or however many crazy things. This is 100% correct. So it's like if I decide not to write about plain bay then I have to find something else. What is that going to be and am I going to get as many hits from it? You're not. Yeah. The plain bay is easy. Now, see, this is the thing. I mean, you, I mean, you, I feel like people the newer times, maybe not every person the newer times, but a lot of people there have the luxury, and I do think it is a kind of luxury to decide to not write about the thing that is going to get the most clicks.

Now, the newer times, those other things, to get a lot of clicks that we could debate. We get a whole other podcast to debate and talk about. But you is, was is there anybody at the Near Times who's like, are you going to write about plain bay? So not to me, but there are other people who work at the Times who would be confronted with that question. We're in an interesting position because we have such a strong subscriber revenue, so that's our base. But we're also in a position where we need to get younger people to start clicking on the New York Times more and then maybe clicking around the homepage and clicking on another story and eventually subscribing to the New York Times more, and then maybe clicking around the homepage and clicking on another story, and eventually subscribing to The New York Times.

Because if they don't do that, then the subscriber base that we have now will disappear. So I think that's more of our calculation as opposed to, we didn't add buy and we need to serve this many things or whatever. I am in a very lucky position where I mean I for editorial reasons like often my editor will ask me to write something and much of the

time I do and sometimes I say it's not a good idea but there are other people in other positions at the time so I think you know it's much more their job to to write things quicker than I than I. Right, right, you're not writing, you're not like cranking out content. Right. I mean, the ones the last thing you published. So I made a bunch of videos and I've been making them over the past like many months

and they're all like coming out now. Are these the interneting videos? Yeah. So you do this in batches? So the one comes out every week, but it's not like I'm making a video a week, you know what I mean? Well, because I, well, because they're gonna come out over a series of 13 weeks,

but really we spent, you know, a period of, not that it was the only thing I was doing, but like six or seven months on them. Okay, so here's the question. What's the last one that came out, but like six or seven months on them. Okay, sure is a question. What's the last one that came out that was like that I could go watch right now? Is a video about hands on the internet? Oh yeah, love that. What?

So you know how on Facebook or on like Buzzfeed tasty or whatever, there are all these videos that just show hands. Yes. Like DIY craft videos and cooking videos. Yes. And so the video is about like basically the semiotics of hands in cooking videos. Yes. I'm cooking videos. And so the video is about, like, basically, the semiotics of hands in those videos. And let me tell you, hands, not a particularly sexy,

like people don't even really... I find hands very sexy. There's not even, like, a hand, I think, a large hand fetish community who might be interested. So... I think that's extremely interesting, because I would rank hands very high on, maybe this is gonna make me sound like a total pervert or something.

I would rank hands very high on my list of things that I'm interested in when I meet somebody new or when I see that. It's also very high on people's self-consciousness, people thinking they have old hands. I mean, so many real housewives do wear fingerless gloves because they're so upset. I got really seen on camera. Oh my God.

I mean, I remember talking to Laura very early on in our relationship about her hands because she has like, she for her whole life has just written a ton like by hand like with pens and pencils. And so she kind of, one of her fingers is like a little bit like has a little curvature to it like with because of how she holds the pencil, you know.

And like very slight. I mean, I think she has great hands. I, my hands are probably, I would rank them as one of my favorite features of my own. But like, if you're like, what's a top feature of Josh? I would actually be like, I think my hands are pretty decent. And my guy's in his office sometimes just lift him up. And I was like, look at that hand.

It's a great hand. Look at it. No, but I was like, I used to joke around about becoming one of you, become a hand model and like how that was like, this stuff doesn't work out. But it's funny, that's interesting because would you just describe, I was like, this sounds fucking fascinating.

We'll check it out, that would be great. I really like that. It also was like something, and this is a, no way meant to take away from this great idea, but it's the kind of thing that like, to me sounds very outlining, like we do a lot of stuff that's like,

an inordinate amount of time and effort spent on a thing that you probably don't think about very much. Right. Which I like. That's like, I'm into us overdoing, like I love overdoing an idea. Like, actually speaking of hands, I guess I can talk about this now

because we're never gonna do it. But we had, when we were building the outline, I had this thing that I would tell when I was pitching the outline to people. I was like, they're like, what kind of stories do you want to do? And I was like, well, here's a story that I'd love to do. This was at the time when everybody was talking about Trump's hand size. You know, there was like a big moment where he was like insulted because he said he was like, believe me, vulgarian. But then, but then there was like a debate where he was like, believe me, my fingers are

very good size. It was like some weird dick thing that he was like believe me my fingers are very good size. Like some weird dick thing that happened. And believe me there's no problem. Is that okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And something like that. And I was like what I'd love to do is I want to get like hand experts and biolid people

who do body language and biologists who study hands and I want to get, I want to get every photo possible of his hands and I want to do like a deep dive into hands in general, sizes of hands like the physiological sort of, you know, to understand and then do a detailed composite 3D rendering of Donald Trump's hand that you could explore that you could like look You could talk to people who've like shaken his hands. Yes, they're Heshms of its size and then and then have the hand you could do other models of other, you know, well-known hands and Compare and see like you could actually visually you know visualize them see them against real-world objects I think you should still do this. Okay, well now everybody's heard it. Somebody's gonna just steal the idea and go and do this.

I don't think so. I mean, a lot of effort. It's a lot of effort. I mean, we even built a thing into our product. Like, you can take a 3D file and just like upload it and I was like, oh, we could do like a series of cards that are different hands,

because it's like really easy to do. And maybe we all did. I don't know, I just want Josh's hands in that mix. I just like the hand moment has passed. Like, we have so many other bigger important things that try to hand. So many larger things to talk about. That's a constant struggle I think with people

who don't cover the president or if you don't cover the president in the typical way. Can I keep talking about hands though? Because I, so I carry like a lot of anxiety in my hands, like my hands, I feel like, I'm just looking at my hands. Like I feel like my hands are gross. And I keep my hands painted. I keep my hands painted now because I used I feel like, John's just looking at my hands. I feel like my hands are gross.

And I keep my hands painted. I keep my hands painted now because I used to just like choose this shit out of them. Is there really wrong with these hands? Thanks, thank you. I think I'm saying a fair share. I love this egg shell, this Robin's egg blue. How would you describe that blue?

Yeah, it is like a tip. It's a good color. Oh yeah, tip any blue, that's exactly right. Yeah, but I met one of the tasty producers and he showed me around his studio and we talked about his hands, which are a subjective fascination on the internet among people who watch those videos,

whose hands are these, they're beautiful. And I shook his hand and I've never felt such a cretin. I was like his hands are just so beautiful and my hands are terrible. They felt good to shake. Yeah, they also keep them in like very, like it's obviously not their main job to be a hand model, but they keep them in like very good shape.

So I think, so it's interesting, Lina Laura, like by turn nails, I mean, I know a lot of people who have like, like you're thinking about anxiety. I don't know if you're thinking about like, you have anxiety about your hands or like you actually, you express anxiety. You express anxiety.

So I do the same thing, like I actually have like a callus here that's like, I just like kind of like scratch at and pull at this like part of my hand. I don't want to. Like all the time, like, and I find myself like, I'm in meetings and I'm doing like doing this. I've been doing it the whole time we're talking by the way. And I'm like, what am I doing? And also are people looking at me, like, and then I'm like, no, it just kind of looks like I'm sitting here and I'm doing this. I've been doing it the whole time we're talking, by the way. And I'm like, what am I doing?

And also are people looking at me? And then I'm like, no, it just kind of looks like I'm sitting here with my hands. But I totally understand that. Like, I think that's a normal human thing. I feel like it's like, you know, like Zelda, our daughter, Sucks or Thumb. And I feel like that's gonna immediate.

Like everybody does that when they're a kid or some has some sort of thing that's like an oral fixation, but it's usually related to your hands in some way. And I just like that continues. Like you end up, I don't know. It's very human, I think. I also used to smoke. Yeah.

And I stopped smoking and I think for, and then I think that made it. How long ago did you stop smoking? Like three years ago. Do you vape? No. You don't have a jewel. I do not partake.

Really? No. Do you vape? No, everybody's vape a jewel. I do not partake. Really? No. Do you vape? No. Everybody's vape. Can I ask you a question about vaping? When you say vape, like, is it what substance is the default substance that you would assume is

in there, like tobacco or... Well, it's nicotine. Or nicotine. Yeah, it's nicotine, and then there's, it's like a liquid that gets vaporized, and it can be flavored. There's tobacco flavored, you can get tobacco flavored juice or whatever, but I think most people don't. They get like mango or cotton candy.

Yeah, when I was trying to quit smoking, my dad bought me like an e-cigarette that was, you know, it's styled like a cigarette and the end lights up and I fucking, I loved it so much that I smoked like whatever, the, you know, equivalent of like three packs of cigarettes just in the night. Yeah, because you could you know, equivalent of like three packs of cigarettes. Yeah, because you could do it in doors.

I'm in the most cigarettes. Wait a minute. Hold on, hold on. What do you mean? You can smoke them down. And you can just suck on it off. No, just there's more nicotine in there than. Yeah.

And you're not really sure how much is in there. So I just, for me, it just became a something that made me. It enlarged your addiction basically. Yeah, yeah. No, I think this is a thing now with, we've done some stories on it, which is like, smoking is like going down, but like, vaping's going up and vaping's like a really good gateway

to smoking, like it makes people, like who were not smokers, into smokers, like people are like, I'm gonna vape, that seems cooler. I want some nicotine. And then they're like, hey, maybe I'll have a cigarette. I don't get it. I like smoking, I smoke cigarettes, like small cigars, which I enjoy, but you don't inhale them. And I've inhale, I smoke cigarettes. And I don't understand what people like about creating an artificial anxiety that wouldn't have been there. But then. I think it's like creating an artificial anxiety

that wouldn't have been there, but then you can relieve it in a way you can't normally relieve anxiety, which feels so good. That's literally what it is. It's a new trade addiction, and then you take care of it. I was addicted to them, and it became like, I consider quitting smoking like one of my, the greatest things I've done in my career,

because it used to be that when I was writing something, I was like, I feel like I have to smoke a million cigarettes to write, to finish this, and I have to do that. It's ritual, I mean, I do think the ritual part of it is also hugely, the break in your day is like, just the act of it, the physical act of it is like, I get it, like, because I like that in cigars, like I think more than anything,

I don't smoke big cigars, because it's lame, but I mean, I was like, once in a while my dad will like one half of a cigar. I just think, like whenever I see a man with a cigar, I'm like, you're just doing this to be like a guy or whatever. But the little ones are satisfying. There is a great ritual to end of the day. What did it taste like?

They taste like, so I smoke this brand called Branif. So my, here's, oh, this is gonna tell you a little story. I mean, it's gonna be really boring, but I'm gonna tell it anyhow. My father used to be, he's retired now, but before, he was a snack food distributor, which he had his own very small operation,

where he literally would drive around in a van and go to convenience stores and would refill or sell them like things like beef jerky or rice crispy treats. He worked for a company or he distributed a company called Tilla Mook, it was not an ad, I'm just telling you. But before that, he did the same thing for cigars. And so, and he loves cigars.

He loves cigars. And so he had a bunch of old cigars and he put them in our basement and we moved to this house when I was like seven or eight years old. And he put them in the basement and we moved to this house when I was like seven or eight years old. And he put them in the basement and he discovered that there is a room in the basement that was super humid. And it was like a little bit mildly, but like more than anything, it was like an amazing

like humidor. It's like whatever stone they use, whatever the position of it is like you don't do anything. It's just like extremely moist part of the basement. So he has this like room full of like old cigars. The cigars that are like, I literally took some last time I was there. They're like 30 years old and they're still like in really good, small, capable condition. So I took a box of cigars from that room, this brand called Branif. They're called villager is the type of cigar.

They are very long like this long, like a-bit longer than a 100, but extremely thin, like as thin as a cigarette. And they're made in Switzerland, which is very unusual, and they have this, whatever this blend of tobacco is. And they taste, they're mild. They taste good. They smell amazing. They smell like, if you like the smell of a cigar, and I don't know a lot of people don't, I think these are kind of the perfect cigar,

middle of the road cigar smell. But I don't know, what are they taste like? I don't know, they taste like fucking pleasure. They taste like pure relaxation. One of the things that somebody said to me, I don't know if it's true or not, but they feel like somebody told me that, like even when you smoke like a cigar,

anything like one of the things that have in cigarettes as well, is that your breathing slows down, that you breathe differently because it's like you're just because of the act of doing it. You're taking a deep breath. Yes, and so you're not doing anything else. And so beyond the nicotine and beyond all that other stuff that you get out of it, you're literally like, it's almost like you're doing something that's closer to meditation where you are like, your breathing becomes much slower and more controlled, which I think

is interesting. This is way off topic from your work, but I am enjoying the conversation. It doesn't make sense though, because with the cigarette also, like, it's, you're focusing on something else. Yeah, I mean, just right now, I'm just, just thinking about it, I want to smoke badly. I don't know if everybody else is telling me, it intends as I don't know. We went for talking about bathrooms and I super had to pee. I just thought, I sound like, I want to smoke badly. I don't know if everybody else is telling me intense desire. We went from talking about bathrooms and I super had to pee. It was like, maybe smoke is the good.

They're really good. I'll give you some, if you want to try them. Yeah, I would. So you draw this thing about mobs. I want to talk a little bit more about your stuff. You're writing. So you were just thinking about, I think we're done with hands, right?

Yeah. You're saying that video is not popular. Is that what you're saying? You said one of the most unpopular things I've ever done. Yeah, it was strikingly unpopular compared to the other two videos that we really set the same time, which makes sense because one of them was about cats and dogs and what they mean on the internet and the other one was about fem bots.

Did you write? And I think somebody put a headline on it that was sexy robots. So it's kind of makes sense. It does drive you insane when we have a lot of arguments and debates here about headlines put a headline on it that was like sexy robots. So it's like, kind of makes sense. Good, good, good. It's like, doesn't drive you insane when we have a lot of arguments and debates here about headlines, because I'm like a very, my headline philosophy is a little bit like this,

which is like think of the worst possible headline that's like the most egregious clickbait garbage, like think about that headline, get, come up with that headline, and then dial it back piece by piece until you feel like you won't be embarrassed to put it on the internet. And that's a, that's like a headline. The decision editor is a brooch. Yeah, yeah.

I know, and I'm a guy who, like, they, they, in everybody here, haze me for it. I'll, like, come and haze. They're like, they're like, hey, this is ready to go up, like headline ideas. And I'm like, this, and they're like, have you read it? I'm like, no, but I don to go up, like, headline ideas. And I'm like, this, and they're like, have you read it? I'm like, no, but headline stuff is a real art. I'll write a piece that I'm like, so confident in it,

and I'm like, this is the headlines, the only one thing that makes sense. I mean, that's what it is. And some of them will come back and you're like, damn, I would click, I would read that. Yeah. My thing is I always try to get the writer to, or the editor of the piece to tell me what it's about,

just like in one sentence. Yeah, elevator pitch. Yeah, elevator. Like if you give me the elevator pitch, like I can tell you what the headline should be. Yeah. I actually, I miss. So, you know, how the New York Times

used to have this headline construction that people made fun of. But it was like in Brooklyn, comma, a tree grows. I mean, I miss, I want that back. Bloomberg, those things would come from that. It's because they're good. But I love it. Bloomberg has similar structures. There's something good there. We definitely have on a regular basis, someone will drop a headline idea in and it's like, oh, that's the New York Times construction.

And it's like, it's easy to do. It is fun. But there is a certain flatness to it on the internet. Yeah. It's like, you know, I think what's all the time. Is it romanticism with a paper? I have so much jealousy for papers and magazines because one is like, they have fixed layouts which is like, oh, you made one design and now that's it.

Lucky you. But also, you can have like, and we actually do this at the outline, which we actually have a lot of variables of like what your initial presentation of a story is, right? Like for this whole purpose, which is like, headlines are fucking annoying. Like the idea that we only communicate with like, a headline is really annoying,

and that's like the, that is like the lifeblood of like social media is like, did the headline work? Which is not a great judge of like, whether or not the the headline work, which is not a great judge of like whether or not the story is worth your time or not a great way to judge it, but it's a headline and that's what they're there for. But we magazines you can have like an article and it's like,

like it can be like her. And you're like, and I'm like, well, I should be like, and then it's like beautiful photos. Right, you've got like these big, you know, full page, it's like her. And then I go, who is she? and then it's a beautiful photo. Right. You've got like these big, you know, full page, it's like her. And yeah, well, who is she?

And then it's like, you know, you get to like this big, just a deck or whatever on the other page. And you're like, oh my god, I mean, I'm so in this story. I mean, the other way that I think that click, if clickbait is probably not the correct term, but the way that that enters into the New York Times calculation is like, there are people who don't subscribe, right? So they only get 10 articles a month or something because we have a paywall. So people are literally like, am I gonna waste one of my 10 news?

Which is telling about in-conniddo brownies. Yeah, it's true. You all said. Don't tell them. There are people on Twitter being like, can someone please tell me what this article says? It's like, were already at my tent It's like Apple shift N and you can find out yourself or Apple shift T or whatever it is Apple shift T I think but unless you're in a Windows computer which is control shift Let's talk about mob show quick. Yeah, oh wait really quickly before we tell you a mobs your other video Dogs and cats. Yeah, was it about the rise of dogs?

Yes. Okay. And I quoted an outline, did you write that? We did. Who wrote that? We wrote it. Yeah. I'm trying to think of the writer now. I forget who it is, but yes, how dogs have overtaken

cats. There's, so, I mean, one of the issues with video is that it's really difficult to cite people in the same way that you would in an article. So what we have tried to do is have credits in an article page where I talk about the outline a little bit. And then also like showing the outline and the by-line. Is that happened in the video?

Yeah. Oh. Do we just check out this? Was it in hypebeasts? We have a room called hypebeasts where we put in all the good things that happen. I feel like I feel like I saw so many bothers and then you also did a something about sorry the other video was it's about fembot oh you fembots what is what what about them? So it's basically about social media fembots not sex robots. Uh mostly not sex robots because fembots are like a

visualization of like a robot that's a woman or a robot that's a woman or like right like a Westworld robot Right, so what we're talking about is you know most literally like those CGI Instagram models that have cropped up now. Oh, oh, well, Michaela. Yeah, but also the video ends up talking about how now. Oh, Loma Kayla. Yeah, but also the video ends up talking about how platforms themselves are like affecting women and the way that they act and look and market themselves. Yes. Yes. Well, I think what's interesting about we for Loma Kayla was a hot topic here for a very long time. Like we were going to do something about Loma Kayla and had many conversations about it. Clearly a lot of people have talked about L oh my God, she's very well exposed as is her parent company.

But what's interesting, most interesting about her to me is the a number of people, because to me it's so obvious that she's CGI, it's not in any way. I'm like, I can see this as clear as day. The number of people who are in her comments that are like, there's something weird about her or like, people arguing that she's real

with people who are arguing that she isn't. And I'm like, how could you not see? And I've showed Lil Mikaela to people that I know. And I'm like, do you see anything weird about this? And several people have been like, like her shoes are like, what kind of shoes are those? And it's like no dude, she's a fucking rendering. Anyhow.

Because human women are starting to look. Like rendering, yes. No, I mean like the card, all of the Kardashians to me look like Grand Theft Auto characters. Yeah. Like it's fucking bizarre. Okay, let's start about mobs. Okay. Tell me start about mobs.

Okay. Tell me about your mob piece. Uh, okay. So I was starting to notice that a lot of people were using this word mob to talk about behaviors mostly on Twitter. Like Barry Weissrins is wrote in article number. Yeah. Barry did write one.

So it was a word that was coming up a lot, both on the left and the right, to talk about a collection of behaviors. So it would be, you know, right wing trolls, unearthing, old jokes that James Gunn made about pedophilia and getting him fired by Disney. But also people on the left, you know, kind of hounding the Atlantic to fire Kevin Williamson after his comments about executing women for abortion came to light. Wildly different. Yeah.

I will say like the both of them so very different. Mm-hmm. So yeah, the thing I was interested in was that the same word was being used to describe things that I did think were really different, but that in some ways can start to look the same because they're all happening on this platform that is like priming our communication in a certain direction, which is like, you know, prioritizing speech that is as extreme as possible and Bringing people together to like affect a particular outcome, which is usually now firing So right also like the fact that I talk about this a lot but that the at reply feels personal

But your mentions feel like a crowd and that can be so overwhelming because if you're on the receiving end of a million in like Hey, I think what you did is really screwed up But you as a person feel like I should speak up. It all I should say something. I'm empowered to add reply. Whoever. No. I think one of the interesting things about the idea of like calling it a mob is that it used to be like mob psychology was all about de-individuation.

Is that how you see that? I don't know, but it sounds right. So it was about people when they join a crowd, like losing sense of themselves. But on the internet, it's almost like, I feel like there's an opposite impulse, which is like when something happens that offends your sensibilities in somewhere your sense of justice,

you almost feel like you need to have something attached to your name that's commenting on it. Like I got to release a statement of it. I know this thing that has nothing to do with me. It's like your take. Yeah. It's like everybody has a take. But I think part of the problem is that we are all now aware of so much more shit than we have ever been aware of before.

So if you think of something like, like, Justine Sacco, right, is like the obvious, like the kind of first big example of this happening. And I feel like if she had made... So do you remember the joke she made? It was... Yes, it was a joke about going to Africa. Going to Africa, I hope I don't get AIDS just kidding, I'm white, I believe was the joke. Yeah, so if I had been at a party with her and she made that joke, you know, the two people around her might be like

Like what the fuck do? Yeah But because now like millions of people are seeing this joke for artificial reasons that have to do with like Twitter trying to create a worldwide Community in order to like stay afloat Everyone now feels like they need to do what they would do at the party or what they would hope they would do at the party Which is what the fuck do those fuck does we're all at the party standing next to it But there's also but there's also I mean I would go I think there's a level above that's actually the more common thing Which is not what they would hope to do what they would do, but something they would never do yeah

I think that to me is the more Trion and this has always been part of the internet I mean if you I mean I've been on the internet since I was like, a basically a little kid. And so even on, even pre-internet, like BBS's, this thing would happen, where people would speak in a way that they would never, you would never speak in public to a person,

or in privately to a person. I mean, like in face to face, in the meat space, as we call it, as we call it. But there is a kind of like fantasy that's being enacted there, which is like, in person, I'm speaking for myself, like I'm a coward, you know. Like I don't, you know, I don't go up,

like to people and confront them about things, but on the internet, you know, I feel like maybe some of my guilt about that can be mediated by speaking up. Well, right. But I also think there are these other things that happen on Twitter, which are actually quite reasonable. So one of the recent examples of something being

like labeled a mob is all of these trans people who work in Hollywood speaking out against Scarlett Johansson, being cast as a trans man in a new movie. And the context of this is that she was doing the movie with Rupert Sanders, who previously had cast her as a role that was originally not white. Is this the ghost that you're all in? Is that he make that movie?

I watched a little bit of that through that night. It is truly bad. I have to say, I thought I wouldn't like it for reasons like that, but there are actually a lot of reasons not to like the film. I mean, they basically marine shot like an anime and it was like, and based off of the manga, and it's like, there's our completely different mediums and it's completely artless to just do like a shitty version. And I will say, sorry, I don't want to get off top

before you're saying, but I will say, I will say, I was shocked and sort of surprised. Like I was like, oh wow, people were really upset about this. I know the character in the anime is Asian, but I'm like, well, the character will be Caucasian, I guess, or whatever in this film. It's just a different, it's gonna be like a different person.

Like a different, it's like a different character, basically. And they do kind of try to make her look Asian, I guess, or whatever in this film, which is a different, it's gonna be like a different person, like a different, it's like a different character, basically. And they do kind of try to make her look Asian, I think. Like they are, you're like, you're kind of Asian. It's like, this is like really weird. Okay, so now he's like, now you're gonna be a trans man. Yes. Okay, so there are a lot of people on Twitter who are very angry about this.

In a way that like if you're looking at it from the outside, looks very similar to a kind of coordinated mob, but actually is like a people who, whether or not you agree with them, because I think this is like an evolving question in Hollywood, that what they wanted was pretty reasonable, which is for trans people to be in the room when decisions like that are being made. But because they're not in the room, they have this crude tool, which is Twitter, to be angry on.

And that is basically what they have access to. Yeah, I think, I think that, and you're right, like it's a reasonable, but then it's like, okay, yes, but then there's such a fine line between where it is a reasonable argument between where it is a reasonable argument and where it is an unreasonable argument or like seems unreasonable. Like the debate about, what is it? Ruby Rose, is that her name?

She's playing who bat woman, right. And people are like really mad about it because like she's not a good Novakrish and isn't gay in the right ways for a certain set. No, she's gay, she's not a good Novakras and isn't gay in the right ways for a certain set. No, she's gay. She's just not Jewish. She's not Jewish.

But like, also, I saw people who are like, like, she's the only lesbian you could find or whatever, and it's like, I don't know. It's like, okay, but there's also like, that's a place where it's like, wow, the line is really close here. Like, it's almost this debate here, but it seems like it's more like a bullying debate. It's more like, you didn't get something you wanted than you're mad about it. But what you wanted in like where the, where the worlds of like entertainment and commerce like line up are just the realities. Even if you feel like it's wrong, it isn't always actually wrong, right?

Right. It's not just a societal wrong. It's like a fandom interest. And that can be pretty, yeah. That one, I don't know how violent God, but it can get pretty vile. Like it's like the stuff where, it's like the stuff where people, like who's the girl from, who's in the Star Wars movie, who's the Recon. Kind of like a fan too.

Yes, she, who's like, I'm leaving Instagram whatever, because I'm getting bullied or whatever by these like Star Wars fanatics. But I think to your point about Twitter, it is an environment, the system works in that way because it is actually good for their business if system works in that way because it is actually good

for their business if it works in that way. Not because it's good for society. Right, it's not good for society. And frankly, what I, and I'd love to hear your thoughts is then we probably do have to wrap up because I know we won't really long. But is it, like we have this idea that like, the right way to be, the so weird social media idea

that the right way to be is to like speak to the masses, like in a forum where everybody can have a conversation, but like there's no, I don't know that there's any actual evidence in the history of humanity that like giving everybody the place to speak to the largest possible audience is actually conducive to healthy conversation or debate. But we've just been rolling along with that idea. I also feel like all of our civic interactions have been

subsumed by things on commercial platforms. And all of those platforms are made, like they're funded by venture capital or whatever in such a way that it's like they start as a community and then they must expand in order to pay their shareholders and that is for them to make money not for us to have a better conversation. Well, this is the thing, by the way, getting to that place where you're like, I should just, you know, like to do just life of matter or whatever, like that thing. But this is the rabbit hole that I go down all the time, which is like you start to think about you've matter or whatever, like that thing. But this is the rabbit hole that I go down all the time, which is like, you start to think about Facebook and Twitter

or whatever and you're like, oh wow, yeah, these systems were built because of back in my VC. And then you go like, well, but let's go back and you go to like Google and you go, oh yeah, like Google didn't have to, like oh my God, it's an incredible tool for finding things. But then it's like also of course, it's been created to support this advertising business.

But then you're like wait, but the advertising business built the way it is, not because it's like also, of course, it's been created to support this advertising business, but then you're like, wait, but the advertising business built the way it is, not because it's like, this is the best advertising business we can build, but because it was like the best one that you could build at the time that made sense for that moment, and you're like, wait a second, we completely miscalculated, like we have made capitalism is bad, let's start from the beginning.

Okay, but you can go back to capitalism is bad, but you could also say that like, okay, maybe, and this is maybe I'm, because I was raised in the depths of capitalism, like there are magazines I love that I open and I see an ad and I'm like, I'm interested in this. This is interesting, I'm glad you brought this to my attention. There's an ethical model of advertising

that we threw right out the window. Like it's real, like I mean, and maybe I'm brainwashed because like I don't need the jeans or whatever, but I'm like, these jeans look good and I want them. I don't know, but it is fundamental. There's advertising's been around for very, very long time, and it hasn't always felt strictly evil. We want you to buy this thing.

Being told about products is not the worst thing. Sometimes you find out about a toothpaste that's off a problem that you have, but you didn't know there's a solution. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Of course, you do fucking max read. But no, max is great. But no, but then you get into this rabbit hole where it's like, oh, wow, a whole structure of everything is built. Like scale exists, like the idea of scale exists for reasons

that like actually don't have anything to do, even in some ways with the pursuit of like money. Like in some ways like Google's original bet was like, scale exists because the things were advertising we can't get as much money as like a magazine gets for it. So you have to make a lot more of them, like you've get it, like basically show more ads to more people. And so it was like this weird engineering problem.

I think that's all the time because like we have tried to find ways to like change that and it's anyhow. Okay. And I also feel like our political system is so broken and like our president was not popularly elected, where people now feel this idea that reaching out to a company to solve their problem, whether it's by forcing them to make a certain decision or by just selling them something is like rational because they can actually like get something from that. Yeah.

Because they still fear the crowd. Right. No, I mean, the whole thing is broken. Okay, this brings me to my final point. Then we're going to have a final thing which is going to be a very upbeat and happy thing where everybody talks about stuff that they're into right now. It can be on the internet or not.

This is the thing we've been doing. But do you think that, do you think this stuff gets fixed? Like, you spend a lot of time thinking about the internet and thinking about people on the internet. Is this... Are these problems fixable? And do you think that we have... We, the royal, we have ways of fixing them at this point? No.

Okay, wow, that's... Dark shit. Not before, like, this, you know, island is covered in water, I don't think. I don't know, but you see. So you think water, where the fix will be that we're all drowning. And then it's like, there'll be way fewer people on the internet. And so it'll be a much calmer place.

I mean, it's possible that we get somebody in office who's interested in regulating these properties. But Facebook and Twitter. I mean, we can't get an under-challenge where we're starting here. Well, I mean, it depends on who's interested in regulating these properties. But, Facebook and Twitter. I mean, we can't get an under-challenge where we're starting here. Well, I mean, it depends on who's, and this is, I mean, I think the greatest lesson is that it really, really matters who the president is,

turns out, it's just like not like, oh, they're all the same. It's like, they're actually all very different. It turns out, okay. We're gonna wrap up here. Okay. But before we do, we've been doing this thing at the end of every episode where we talk about stuff that we're really into.

Something nice. And so since you're on the spot, Ryan, you can start. I really like Bill Wirtz on YouTube. I keep recording YouTubeers, but there's nice things on there. He did that history of Japan video and history of the world video, which were very entertaining and musical, but actually accurate. And he also does tons of little music, songs that sometimes are really short, sometimes are a little longer.

They're like trippy internet things that are semi-ironic, semi-earnest, and you should check it out. This is the best way I can explain it. He seems like a nice gentleman with nice things to say and do. And it was a great way to spend an hour. So I am very basic. So my positive internet thing is I saw this video on Facebook that was of people taking their hands and making like the okay symbol in front of their dogs and their dog would just go up and put its nose through it. Or they would make a circle with both of their hands

and put it in front of their dog, and then their dog will go up and go through it. Like not a specific dog, like dozens of different dogs want to do this. So it's like you do this and the dog sticks its snout through there. Yeah, yeah. And like I don't think, yeah is it a butt thing?

I mean, it's called what? The snoot challenge. The snoot challenge. The snoot challenge. Like the snout? Isn't it the snout challenge? Yeah, because dogs have little snoots. Should you be the snout challenge? But they got little snoots.

Wow. It's for the poop among their snoots. It's for the prues, the rise of dogs. Yeah, like I don't care how Y. Laurel and Yanny sound the same, but I want to know why dogs do that. Somebody has, the times did have, well I'll say one thing about the Laurel and Yenny content, it was all fucking annoying, but the one thing

that was at least good, the times did do a thing that was like a sound, it was like you could tweak the filter of the sound in real time to hear it cross over from the Laurel to Yenny part. I thought the part, that part at least, so let me put some real effort into like, like, oh, you know, think about how we do a Velopers at the Times, work on that. You're like, you could have been doing important journalism, and they're like, but, make it work. Think about how many developers at the time works on that.

You're like, you could have been doing important journalism and they're like, what the lural in Miami-City is something from this stupid thing. I love it. I'll get a name two things. One is a thing on the internet and one is a real world thing. The thing on the internet is, so post-molone, I know you keep talking about post-molone.

Post-molone, like, was it, he was on his private plane and it like couldn't land. Because it didn't have any landing gear. I need to pull this up. I'm not, like, I hate Twitter. I think Twitter's really bad. I think most of the stuff that happens on Twitter is bad, but every once in a while you see something

and you're kind of like, you know, you're like, I mean, you see people do this all the time. They're like, this website is free people or whatever, like, they're like, so I did it. But website is free people or whatever, like they're like so into it. But this is why I just thought, I'm gonna read it to you. So first of all, his account is Beer Bung's and Bentley, which is an A or S record. I don't follow him.

This was like dropped into, I think this is actually dropped into our good tweet through, which is very unusual if it was because everybody hates Post Malone. I landed guys, thank you for your prayers. Can't believe how many people wish death on me on this website, fuck you, but not today. Which is like, I love the fact that one Post Malone's like,

he's like scandalized by the death threats, but also he calls it this website, which is like a thing that I feel like only very internet people do. Yeah. And so I just was very charmed by this. I think Post Malone has a lot of problems. When he went up at the VMAs, John, my fiancee turned to me and said, we're stuck with him, aren't we?

And I was like, yes, we are. All I can say is when you look at Post Malone's face, I want you to think about this one phrase, adult cherub. Okay, look at his face and then try to unsee that he's like a fucking Renaissance cherub. Okay, look at his face and then try to unsee that he's like a fucking Renaissance cherub. Okay, it raised by rats. That's really nice. Have you seen Post Malone? I actually, I haven't. Okay, you should check him out. Is he a rapper? Yes. He's a yes. You should check out Post Malone. Are you showing Post Malone? Oh, yeah, okay. Okay. He reportedly smells bad.

Adult cherub. I love it. I love it. Here's the thing about Post Malone. I'm sorry, I don't want Post Malone. I've got it. I see, here's the thing that I'm just so, I just like Post Malone, to so out of shape, fucking weird as fucking cherub face.

He's terrible. His hair is terrible. Like, his style, personal style is like oracle light or something like it's just not good and yet sex symbol, massive sex symbol. That's how it goes in your man. I know. I'm also around a round faced person so I don't align yourself. Your face is fine. This is not you don't have a post balloon situation going on.

Okay, you're not an adult child. Yeah, let's put that one. But let's get you to a tattoo, Bartyler. You're right. Get some stuff right here. Okay, second thing is French 75s. Let me just talk about them for one quick second. It's a champagne cocktail.

Let me explain how it works. It's gin and lemon juice shaking over ice and then poured into a champagne glass and then champagne poured over and then a lemon wedge sliced in. A couple of things you should know about it. It's fucking delicious. It takes, I don't like, I like very dry champagne or very dry like sparkling wine.

This takes it even further away from a sweetness to like a dry tart kind of space. But they also like fuck you up really hard because they're so delicious and they're full of gin. It's like a martini and a champagne made love but they also like fuck you up really hard because they're so delicious and they're full of gin. It's like a martini and a champagne made love and I've been drinking a lot of them. I'm gonna make an appointment with you just to drink this.

Yeah, so what's all good with your friends 75s after this? Thank you for coming by. I really enjoyed this conversation. You've gotta come back and we need to do like an extended an hour long of this probably like an hour isn't it? I don't know, but it's like an hour now. It's like's a lot more stuff to talk about. Yeah, so thank you. Thanks Well, as our show for this week, we'll be back next week with more tomorrow. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best, though I understand your family just tried to do the snoot challenge and the dog did not put its nose through the hole.

you