Tomorrow - 130: The Resistance of Eoin Higgins

Episode Date: August 31, 2018

On this week's episode, Josh and Ryan have entirely too much to say about Louis C.K., the Cuomo vs. Nixon debate, and exactly why androgyny and denim are the best reasons to be gay. Then they're joined by writer Eoin Higgins, who drops in to discuss Resistance grifters, John McCain, and why Donald Trump is like a hacked, beat up Android phone. He's also got a pretty great dog. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow. I'm your host, Joshua Tupulski. Today at the podcast, we discuss construction workers, Troysavon and Osama bin Laden. I don't waste one minute. Let's get ready. All right, Ryan. We're back. It's another week. Nothing's happening. Very quiet. No deaths, no tweets, no political situations, nothing. No debates. Oh, yeah. I think K didn't do anything. This is great. Is just continuing to lay low. So good. Let's talk about Louis K. For a second. All right. Let's get into it. So, so I didn't read the Times article, but apparently, Louis K did a secret surprise set. Just showed Let's get into it. So, so I didn't read the Times article, but apparently Louis K. did a secret surprise set. Just showed up. He loved surprising people.

I think comedy seller. Wow. I had the comedy seller, right? Is that where it was? Have you ever done a set at the comedy seller? Uh, comedy seller is not an notoriously gay friendly. Oh really? It's just not, it's one of those places. Those, you know, uh, like, like, a big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, those places. Those, you know, like, like, a big, stuck thing. Those kind of places is not where I'm gonna play. I've been there. I've been there. Workshops and material there.

But it's, I don't know. I don't know anything about the comedy world, except that I know that people get up there, they bear their souls, they make the audience laugh, and sometimes they go, you know what, it's not all right that I'm making fun of myself. We have to stop this. I'm just stop making fun of ourselves. By the to stop this. Stop making fun of ourselves.

By the way, I had to say, listen to, we did a pot. We did a world dispatch episode about the Ananette piece that we ran by the Peter Mosquitz wrote. And I still haven't watched Ananette, but he felt qualified. But I listened to, but we have clips of the show on there. And Hannah Gadsby is talking about anger. It's like anger can only become like it's only hate and it can only fuel like you know these sort of toxic feelings and

you know and I there's a P.I.L. song uh uh uh uh uh which is called um why am I blanking? I was called rise kind of a minor hit from the 80s, great P.I.L. So I'm John Liden, who's now a horrible, horrible person, formerly Johnny Rodden, anyhow. A lot of people from the 80s, a lot of people turned out bad. But anyhow, the end of the song, the end of the song, there's this refrain,

which is anger as an energy. And I do think that like, I was like thinking about the argument about Nanette and the pros and the cons of it. And I do think it's always tough when you have your ideology and you're like, this is my ideology now, it should become your ideology. And I think that... I think the thing with Nenet is that it's...

Kill him or kill him or kill him or kill him. And it's right for her and it's her story. And she's saying it's probably right for lots of people who don't know that it's right for them yet. And so listen, but it doesn't make it. It's one of those things that's like, okay, but I'm a queer comic who's been sexually assaulted and none of that applies to my work. Personally, I haven't sexually assaulted, but I do have a gigantic Jewish hook nose, which I'm gonna talk about. Oh, yeah.

Whenever I want to. Whoever I want. Okay, so anyhow, anyhow, Lucy Kay. Gave back to Lucy Kay. He did a set. And I don't know what the nature of the material was. whoever I want. Okay, so anyhow, any how- Absolutely, okay. Get him back, get him back, get him back, get him back. Get him back, get him back, get him back, get him back. And I don't know what the nature of the material was. Is there a right up where it covers the material?

I thought it was just regular stuff. Like, just regular stuff? No, his regular stuff was just like dad stuff. Okay, he wasn't like the top. It wasn't like I, it's this chair, I mean. It's this chair. I knew. Yeah. He wasn't like, okay, I was picking from him.

He wasn't like, I serially, sexually assaulted, basically sexually harassed, assaulted. I don't know what you call it because like, he didn't touch anybody, right? His thing was he would masturbate in front of people and like, not let them like leave the room until he was done, until he was done. And I had heard about that, I will tell you to say this, I'm not gonna name a name. But I was at a party, an industry event, and Louis C.K. was there with other like big name people,

and it wasn't a huge party, it was a small cocktail party, and someone, another comedian who's not as big, but who is far more talented than him, pulled me aside and said, I said, oh, do you wanna meet Louis C.K. just walked in and she pulled me aside and told me and she was like, uh, women and you are Kevin telling each other these stories. And she was like, and it happened to a friend of mine. And I was skeptical of the story.

And it was the most menacing thing because then from then on, uh, she couldn't go alone places with comics, not just PTSD, but just for safety reasons, because once you know that the possibility is there, and I guess it's like better to, I don't know, I don't know. It was so, so when it all came out, I knew about it and got created written that story. And the to see people act as if like, but you know, he talked to them and that, you know, they were down for it or it's not that big of a deal to know the fear in someone's eyes who is a friend of someone that that had happened to, like, it's real. Do you know what they were down for it, or it's not that big of a deal to know the fear in someone's eyes who is a friend of someone that that had happened to. Like, it's real.

Do you know what I mean? Like, it's a real thing that really, he really harms a whole bunch of people. He obviously really did it and clearly had real psychological emotions. And like, he knew he was doing something bad because he kept it a secret and Dave Becky Blackbob these people. Right. So just repeated my own career by saying that. So it's fine.

You don't need that career. So the, anyhow, he does a set, I guess, doesn't address the, to me, okay, if I'm Louisie K, I'll inform myself in the shoes of Louisie K. Sure. All right, let me think for a second. I love to, and have we talked about this one happened, by the way, I'm just trying to think about the mentality,

which is I love it when the other person is not enjoying themselves. That is the top line item. Oh, that's not sexy. Yes, the top line item is what turns me on is when another person feels uncomfortable and would like to leave. I can't think of a thing that is actually less sexy.

I know that men have a thing, and it's come work on with men than it is with women to be like shamed or to, like, like, cuck stuff to, like, be like, you're inferior, you're not, you're nothing and like, squirm. But the man is the cuck. Yeah, like, being told, like, you're, you're a little, like, you have a tiny penis,

you're gross, all that stuff. But like, I guess in a fantasy where, like, everybody's consenting and this is whatever, but the actual life stuff of that, like, that doesn't haunt you that you do it over and over. You're saying you think Louis was like wanted that he wanted to be called gross. Oh, you think he wanted the way he looked at his material. Oh, yeah, look at his material. Are you doing that?

Yeah, okay. His material's all self-hating. I'm sweaty and fat and gross. So lame. Anyhow, so he's a serial masterbator and, you know, he's passed up to do a set. So he does a set nine months. Doesn't address it. And there's obviously he debate Jeremy Gordon,

I added their culture either with the outline, wrote a really smart piece about it, about him not deserving a second chance. And I'll say this and I think it's a nuanced piece and I think if you read it, I think there's a part of it that's kind of like, to get of like to get a second chance, it's not like there will be a moment where the second chance appears for you.

Like in a situation like the one that Louis K K is in, I think there's, I would imagine that reasonable people are like, there are ways, there are paths back to, there are paths back into the public, let's say maybe that's a good to back into the public. Let's say maybe that's a good graces of the public, but like at least being able to like show your face. When owner writer was banned for 10 years and she went to therapy and she did fucking talks

and donated money and did volunteer work and all of this stuff because she shoplifted some sweater impulsively when she was in the throes of mental illness. And, but it's like, yeah, nine months of just being quiet and like, hey, I'm back. It's like, I just feel like there's a much more rigorous process for what Louis has done that he needs to go through before I can even remotely consider wanting to hear anything he has to say.

You know what I mean? It's like, it's like, I, by the way, I'm not that big of a Louis KFN. No. But like, you know, he was, he that big of a Louis K-Fan weekend with. But like, you know, he was, he's a fine comic of a talented guy. That isn't a talent that's so necessary that like he's an amazing surgeon. But I'm not of the mind that he should be like

banned for life from everything. But it's like in order to get, but it's like he didn't, he has to do something. We really, really meaningful in the way of owning up to it. Real apologies on my Ryan show this weekend. I talked about some else who apologized, which is a

Laura makeup artist who treated some racist stuff and she did a really hollow fake apology and everybody. There's a huge backlash. And you go. Lourily, Laura. But what I the crux of the thing ended up being, when you apologize, you have to know what you did wrong, feel like genuine empathy and feel really bad.

You have to take steps to show how you won't let this happen again. You have to do some work, like donate money volunteer time, like actually do something to try to make it up to somebody. Genuinely apologize, ask for forgiveness, and expect none of it. Yeah. And what Louie needs to realize is that this is a workplace safety thing. Other female comics, other male comics don't necessarily want to be around him.

And so for you to go to a stand-up show, where other comics, women won't be able to get in the door or don't want to perform, you're taking time, you're taking safety from them. So if he turned around and said, I'm gonna write a book, because then I won't have to be around anyone, they won't have to be uncomfortable. I'll get my view point out there and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, after he really apologizes and in his book, he discusses what he learned and how he's changing his life. I would be willing to read that book and engage with a conversation or like, look, you want to be, you want to

perform, I mean, you want to, you want to like, you know, put yourself out there like, like, book your own night, sell tickets or no or like make Like let people see you go through some process where you're actually something is actually changing I mean, I'm not giving him a show. I even even rhetorically, but like but like but the reality is He didn't go to jail. He wasn't sued. He hasn't paid anybody anything, maybe he has, I don't know if he's paid people off or not, but that would only be the start of a road back to any kind of, I wanna see or hear from Louis C. Okay, it's like, there are a lot of people who we don't hear

from that, frankly, you've eaten up a lot of time and until you can establish yourself as not a fucking maniac and show that you've learned that the way you were behaving is really crazy and bad and like you should never do that and you're gonna like make sure that other people don't do that and you're gonna put time and effort and energy and fucking money into it. Like, you just have to do stuff, you know?

Like, I don't understand how he isn't like, what is the thinking? Like, the thinking from him is, I'll just like, I'll wait it out. People kind of forget about it. The hardcore Louis fans don't give a shit to begin with. They're like, there's apologists for everybody. Right. And then there's Manson about it. And then he's going to get out there back out there.

And then I think he'll have to, you know, maybe he lost 20% of his audience, but then he got a new 20% that's like MRA guys or whatever, you know. I mean, maybe that's the equation. And he's like, I don't care if, I don't care if like woke people won't accept me. This could be Louis thinking. But I think that comedy clubs in New York need to defend their employees and protect their employees.

If someone was masturbating in this office and scaring your female employees. And nine months later, you were like, listen, he had his nine months off. He's a really good writer. That's the, why don't we have them in the office? When you put in that, but I saw people, I saw some people tweeting about this. And I mean, he's meant Jeremy also mentioned something like this in his article, but it is like, it is very simple.

Like, imagine this scenario, but he's like, you know, a manager at Starbucks. Yeah. And he's like jerking off in front of all the employees. You know, the female employees. Would you be like, okay, you're fired, but in nine months, you can come back and be the manager at the Starbucks.

Like nobody would be like, yeah. And it's not just a Starbucks because a comedy club owner and I've worked in these clubs owns a very dangerous venue with it has tons of workplace safety issues. And audience members are wild cards like you're in a theme park. There is alcohol.

You are dealing with mentally ill people for the most part that do this job. You're dealing with drugs, you're dealing with interpersonal relationships that are perfectly allowed because none of these people are under contract saying. It's an insane environment. To throw a known sexual predator back in there and act like you are being a responsible business owner

is crazy. I don't think, like, I just to be clear, I don't think that I will say this. I don't think that we should have, I mean, look, if you've commanded the crime, you should be punished for that crime. You should go through the process. There's a redemption process for everyone. But, but like, but let's just say, like, what Louie did is like in this weird gray area where it's like clearly very damaging and upsetting and scary for lots of different reasons, but like it's like maybe you can't like prosecute that exactly.

I mean, there's probably some type of crime that it is, but he's not going to jail, okay? He's not going to pay a fine or whatever. I don't believe that he's like as a person is like beyond getting past this like that we couldn't. You should doing it in the worst way. There's no, I don't feel like, wow, I'll never be able to forgive Louis for being a fucking creep.

Like I'm like, you can kind of forgive almost anybody in the right circumstances with the right set of like, the right amount of work from that person and a belief. Well, like back to the Manson thing, some of those Manson girls later in life did a ton of work. They wrote books. They like had huge, they got out of drugs and they got their mental illness treated

and they've done a ton of work on themselves and maybe they'll never get out of prison. But in my mind, it's like that's, you're not who the person you that you were and you're in a different place and this is not a murder. But Charles Manson didn't do that. And this isn't also a murder act. Of course, but like the road back should be actually easier but there this is not a murder. But Charles Manson didn't do that. And this isn't also a murder. It's like actually, of course. But like the road back should be actually easier,

but there has to be a road. And you have to do just air drop into the destination. You're like, okay, let's just say you're over here, right? If you look at the map, you're like, here's your starting point, there's your ending point. Your ending point is like, Louis has paid, has understood, has learned, has paid his, his, the social, professional,

personal finds that are required to, and the women who he, who he victimize do not need to forgive him, but we can reengage with him as a public entity. I would, if I were him, I would think like my, my art is talking about myself and what I'm going through and what's going on in my mind. So I would have at least imagined that if his first thing, like if he's gets up on stage and wants to do comedy, he'd be like, I did something really horrible and really fucked up and I'm trying to figure it out

and here's my thoughts about it. Like he would at least like, as comedians often do like try to work through their shit in that environment, but apparently he's just doing jokes about how crazy it is to be a dad. And it's like, you know, fuck off. Like, basically fuck off.

Like, I do, you know, a person in normal life does like minor things. You still have to fucking apologize in a meaningful way. Like, you offended somebody or you were rude or you interrupted. We have all fucked up. I probably have said something that's podcasted I regret.

I will say something on my fucking talk show with that will eventually, if it stays going, I will say something horrible that I will ask forgiveness for because I'm human being like you at home, like every single person. But you're not gonna, but you're not gonna seriously masturbate.

And I'm not gonna turn around if I did and be like, well, we're back from commercial. Are my next two female guests that I'm forcing to do this. It'd be so fucked up. It's dark anyhow. So, Louie, I don't think I don't know. Let me go home. Just, or you don't have to go home,

start doing something that looks like your process that you're actually engaged in, where you recognize how fucked up what you were doing was and that you're, like, there's something that's like fundamentally wrong with you and you need help and like you do. And like, pay for the production of the women that you blackballed to make a project

before you go make it your next project with your millions of dollars. It's an interesting angle. All right, anyhow, what else is going on? All right, did you see the Cuomo Nixon debate? I watched that shit live. I didn't see the debate, but I read some stories about it. I was actually traveling. I think I was on a plane when the debate was going on. And I understand

it got pretty heated. Yeah, there was a new record piece by Masha Guesson where she talked about what politics is, which is really what the whole thing came down to. Quomo was talking a lot about his basically running against Trump, since he Nixon was running against Quelmo. And they both came from a place of like, why are you qualified or you've been doing management wrong as opposed to saying what is this job actually? Because if he turned, he said to, uh, since he next at one point, um, or they asked since he Nixon, why are you qualified to do this job?

And she talked about her, uh, activism, her fundraising, her, and she's done extremely commendable work for a long time in New York as an activist and fundraiser. And her involvement in politics and what she really should have said is, I don't need to know the specifics of how to finance the building of a bridge. I don't need to know the specifics of, it's not my job to necessarily know how the interpolitical, what's bylaws of every single union in order to say I'm pro-union.

My job is to inspire and to hire the right people and to know the right people who can give me that information and to help them work in a way that will, it's more of a job about holistically making the government work in a specific way, as opposed, and she should have said, Andrew Cuomo obviously isn't good at this. He obviously is a micromanager with pet projects who exploits every angle he can to get things done that isn't what you want.

I will exploit every angle I can to get things done that is what you want. You should be a campaign manager why you sitting here? But no, this is Masha Guest since thesis from New York. And that's really when I walked away from it. That was the impression I had and Masha Guest and put it into words. You don't think you don't think that Cynthia Nixon did a great job in the debate. I think she did a very good job, but Cuomo is obviously a better debater. She obviously is correct on the facts for being. He's a career politician. Yes.

He can't debate. He's got real power. But he came off like a huge bully. And I don't know how that sells in New York. He's like it right now. Oh, I don't know. I mean, post Trump, I don't know if that's, I don't know. How do I know?

The crazy thing about New York is that there's a bunch of people who voted for Trump. I mean, obviously not the majority, but yeah. There are people. I mean, I see fucking Trump bumper stickers all the time and I'm like, I literally think about running cars off the road. I mean, of course, I wouldn't do that. He was saying stuff like, the fact that she has a corporation that she runs her entertainment business through is a rich people thing.

And I think that New Yorkers realize that like, that's a silly attack against a famous act. I have an corporation that I run my business through and I just told you I have zero dollars to my name. I was almost definitely rich. It's just a silly attack or he called her the corporate Democrat. Like just weird attacks that just seemed unhinged.

So I think she won, but I think you were. What was public opinion? Do we know? I think it was kind of mixed. You know, I guess, look, I don't, I mean, on the one hand, Merrick, uh, been a Marijuana, uh, it was a Marijuana, no Mary, been not Mary Cuomo. It was Mary Cuomo. No, it's a governor Cuomo.

Governor Cuomo. Wait, what is this for a second? Andrew? Andrew, sorry, Eves is father's Mary. Okay, let me start that over. We'll just edit that out. Andrew, right? There's all these Cuomo's, Chris Cuomo.

By the way, have you seen his show and CNN? I have an amazing idea. I'm gonna tell you about after this. Wait, I'm gonna also show you a text later. Okay, okay. Okay, so Andrew Cuomo, I mean, he's like a career politician. His father was a politician. You know, he seems kind of like a New York like, you know,

like a slum lord kind of like maybe he would like. Yeah, he's a real shaming. He owns some apartments and he's doing horrible things to attend, answer whatever. You know, he's a real Trump adjacent figure. He's a kind of, right? He's a Democrat apparently. Oh, well, on the other hand,

Cynthia Nixon is, is, you know, has not been a politician, has not been a governor, has not, but he's a politician because it's dad was, has not been on a city council, has not been, is not a lawyer as far as I know Miranda Hobbs was okay she played a lawyer you know and then you learn some stuff I like I get I don't think that job requires that I do think okay I'm gonna she has lawyers I'm gonna argue with you here a little bit I do think the job requires like Obama was a community activist and fundraiser

But he also was a community activist and fundraiser, but he also was a senator. Sure, but I mean like he became a senator. I'm not saying she should be president, but I think a governor. Everybody started somewhere. I mean, starting a governor is a pretty high role. I mean, it's like, it's not like she was like, well, I've been on the city council. She's got comprehensive ideas. I was the mayor of this, you know, whatever. Listen, between her and Cuomo, I'm not saying she's a perfect candidate, but between her and Cuomo. I'm not, well, look, are you voting for Cuomo? I'm not saying she's a perfect candidate. I'm not. But between her and Cuomo. I'm not. Well, look, are you voting for Cuomo? I, first of all, I haven't thought about it.

That's the first thing. Like, I kind of don't, right now, I mean, Cuomo is not a great looking candidate in many ways. You see this story about the, even on the subway, the money about the, the money with the, 25K or whatever, with the Harvey Weinstein thing. You like Harvey off? Yeah, I mean, that's what it feels like. It does not look good, okay?

Yikes. And someone was like, well, that law firm don't it's to him every year. It was like, okay, so they've been thriving. But I don't want to, but I also don't want to, you know, as much as I'm like, oh, Oprah should be being a run for president or whatever. I think we do have to be wary about,

I mean, experience matters. I mean, also, by the way, not having experience matters too. I actually like the idea in some ways of somebody coming into a job and going, like, okay, explain this to me. I'd be like, that's crazy. I'm not doing that. That's fucking nuts.

Like, why would you do it like that? Like, you kind of do need sometimes to have raw thinking that is not like, oh, I've done this my entire life and my father did it and my brother did it, and my brother did it, whatever. Because you're not used to a lot of the work. So I don't see an argument for it. I do think there's a certain set of skills

that you need to kind of develop. And my opinion is, you know, as long as the governor of New York remains a Democrat, which I don't think is going to be an issue, maybe it will be, but it's, I don't think it will be a huge issue. You know, I'm going to be, I mean, I don't take the subway. I guess this is what I should tell everybody. Just like, I don't really take the subway. So a lot of people are like, you know, I understand she called it Cuomo's MTA or something.

Cuomo uses the MTA as an ATM. Which he does. Oh, if you vote for Andrew Cuomo, not voting for him. When you die, you will spend eternity on a seagull. I'm not voting for Andrew Cuomo. I'm all I'm saying is this. I think there are valid arguments for and against. is this. I think there are valid arguments for and against. I think one thing I do agree on is that do you think it's going to run for president? Andrew Cuomo. I mean, he can run all he wants. He ain't going to fucking win. I mean, I mean, no one's going to elect Andrew Cuomo's president. No one wants like, it's like Michael Avenatti talking about how he's going to become president. So I don't want Michael. I already have a fucking, we don't, we don't need more than this. We don't need like more New Yorkers who are like tough, straight talking.

Hey, I got some bullshit to talk about the swamp. Hey, hey, fuck that swamp. Hey, it's like those guys, like I don't need the kids, I don't need like, no, my uncle doesn't need to be the president again. Donald Trump is like, is like, and by the way, I'm not shit talking construction workers because they actually build incredible things. But like the worst construction workers, and by the way, I'm not shit talking structural workers because they actually build incredible things, but the worst construction workers, the cat calling guys, that's like Donald Trump is like an elevated that guy.

He's now the president. I don't need that strain of, let's say, those guys exist in every industry. I mean, clearly Michael Avanadi is like more woke or whatever, but still it's like, I don't need, like guys who are like literal like, literally, yeah, literal like locker room guys, like we don't need any more of those guys.

Like I'm good. I want like the fucking, I want like a frail nerd who learned some things. On Elizabeth Warren, who's got like comfortable in that. Actually, in a section B of that bill. Yeah, I want a frail nerd who's uncomfortable in the locker room to run things. That's what I'm interested in.

But not an in-sell, not an in-sell, not an MRA guy. Nobody with a reddit is good. It's tough, honestly. Let's just like, maybe no man. I'm gonna vote for Cynthia Nixon just based on the basis that she's not a man, I think. No man. She's like, I think you will be.

Well, people can't say you're only voting for Cynthia because she's a woman. First off, maybe that's valid. P.S., some people are only voting for Cuomo because he's a man. I just think it's like, I just think honestly at this point, like fewer men in politics, I think could be a good thing. Yeah, kill all men.

That's my, well, I don't think we have to kill them, but kill all men. Get them out of their seats. So I went nowhere with that. All right, what else is going on? All right, so for our last day, let's end with something happy. Oh.

Eating carbs might save your life, a piece on the outline, but a piece of you, Johnston. You know listen, there's been a lot of debate about the paleo, the Mediterranean diet, the, you know, all those doctors that died from their own diets, because they only read me. They all salami diet, which I'm on currently,

I just eat, I just get a, I get that. It's not so good in here. I get that, you know, a thing of salami at the deli that you see at the deli counter, I get that and I just work my way through, I do half, Monday, half on Tuesday, then I get a new one from Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, I fast, and then on Saturday and Sunday, I only eat cake.

So it's a pretty effective diet. I mean, cholesterol is 500 over 20. I don't know how to breath talking on a podcast. I don't actually know. Literally, what's like a bad cholesterol? I found out my cholesterol was slightly high. What is it? I don't remember. Okay, you don't want to tell me. No, I don't remember found out my cholesterol was slightly high. What is it? I don't remember. Okay, you don't want to tell me.

No, I don't remember, but it was very slightly high. So I started taking fiber supplements and it's changed the game. Oh, really fiber? Change the game. Covered in my heartburn, more energy, regularity and all department. Regularity and all department.

And all department. I gotta say, I love it. I like it personal with a listener for the time. Oh no. You know, there's nothing more, like sort of grounding than to be regular. Let's be honest. No one likes to be constipated.

No one likes to have, you want everything moving and shaking. Diaria situation, you don't want that. You want to be just right. Yeah, you know? Like a, like a, like a, like a, what's fucked up is like, we assume it's commercial.

We can't get there. Like we need all kinds of help. Yeah. you know five to five or pills and we're yogurt and I T. I believe it's an activity. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I mean, we're also fucked up our diets are so fucked up We're like I literally have destroyed my body and it won't work properly now Well the human body exists because it was the best version of it like a cluster of garbage that survived And so it's honestly astonishing that we can even reach regularity. It's the human body really is. It's a jalapi.

It's kind of like a trash compactor. Yeah, really. Yeah, it's kind of like a steam engine. Like a dump. Yeah, that's char like a dump. Like a garbage dump. You know, where garbage is being processed. Yeah, that's all you are.

Anyhow, it was supposed to be a happier note. Yeah. So yeah, barely carbs. Apparently it's like carbs, like, you know, if you don't eat carbs, it's very unhealthy. I don't know. You'll be cut as hell. You should not ever.

I did a great tweet about this. And as you saw, I said, you're diet is killing you, but your corpse is going to be sexy, AF. Yeah. You know, which I don't know if it's like, I was like, wait, is this, am I gonna, are there gonna be like, wait, is this am I gonna, are there gonna be like, are people like eating disorder people are gonna come for you?

This is the reality every tweet. It's every fucking thing. This is the reality we live in. I was like, am I gonna get attacked for being like, I love PC. I love being PC, but also shut the fuck up. It's actually, I feel like, I do ever feel like you're like, I'm so on board.

I lost weight with my fiber supplements. I lost, I have honestly in the last year between fiber supplements and working on a little more because of my cholesterol, lost like 45, 50 pounds. I should be taking more fiber supplements. Change the game, but on your thing. But I tweeted that and someone was like, are you fat-chaming?

I was like, no, I'm reporting the way that I personally lost. I know, but I will say this like, good. Everyone's in a while, I'm like, I'm so on board by the way, I want people just to be, I want people to be happy and to be free. But everyone's in a while, I'm like,

maybe you shouldn't be happy. No, no, but it's just like, I feel like, wait, is this how people get red pill it? Cause I'm like, fuck this shit. Like, come on, like, come on, just give me, just give us a break for one second. Like, like, don't make me feel like I'm fat, shamey, like your thing.

Like, you're like, I'm talking about. Both sides of this is an inability to have perspective. Both red pilling and ultra fucking tumbler woke attack everybody for everything. So it's the same. I see threads on Twitter sometimes. And I'm like, we're, I'm like, this thread is so far down a rabbit hole that I'm like, I'm, I'm grasping to figure out where we're at right now.

Like, where are we in the universe reading this thread? I'm like, it's like, I'm not trying to deny anybody their rights at all or to like take anything away from them or let them be the person they want to be. But at some point, you are like, I do feel like wait a second. Am I, am I old? Am I crazy? Or possibly, is there like a bridge too far as I was just stuff? Like, is it like, we're overpollucing this?

I think it has to have perspective. And I think it's easier to have perspective if you've had to been forced to have it. So like queer people, people of color, are forced to have perspective about things and little slights, microaggressions, letting things go. For instance, like being a gay person, my entire youth was answering very stupid questions about gay people. Like what? Like who's the man who's the woman in the relationship? No, where are you going to put on some?

Can you have an orgasm if someone had sex with you in your butthole and you say like, the, you know what, I should say that. Oh, oh, my entire life has been a series of questions where you born gay, why are you choosing this? Stuff like that, like, be sex. And what did you choose to be gay? I've been wondering that about you.

The gifts. Really, I wanted to have better gifts on Twitter. I always wonder, like, why choose to be gay, such a... So you can share... You wanna share jeans? Uh, oh, I was like, yeah, jeans. Oh, that's actually a great argument for... Oh, doubling your wardrobe?

The best. Really good argument. But, if I were gay, I would not date somebody. I don't think I'd be attracted to somebody who was my like, face-up. See, my problem is I'm attracted to all men. Really? All men. I feel every man. I be attracted to somebody who was my like, face size. See my problem is I'm just attracted to all men. Really? All men.

I feel every man. I'm trying to think of like what men I find. I think I might just be slutty. I don't think I think men I find most attractive, like a Jude law. Now Jude law's way smaller than me. Sure. It's a good looking guy.

Absolutely. Who's another good looking guy? I like that Troy Sivan. He's a handsome little guy. Yeah. He's about androgyny. Yeah, I guess there's a little, like a little bit of like kind of like a little guy. Yeah, there's something about Androgyny. Yeah, I guess there's a little bit of like kind of like a bowie. Yeah, a bowie, very handsome,

Morrissey in his heyday. Not the see like I'll go from that. I'll turn around to a burly bear leather, whatever. And then I turn around again and there's a nebyshy nerd. I turn around again and there's an obese uncle. And then I turn around again and there's a 19 uncle and then I turn around again and there's a you really 19 year old college students I get it. That's I just like men I think it's high in with women like like Laura always gives me shit because I'm like, oh

She's very attractive and she's like you literally think everybody's good looking. Yeah, you know, I've learned something I don't know there's always something so it's always something you could find on any person There is everything but smell it don't like bed smells What are bed smells? I just don't like anyone that smells too much of anything or that smells bad. Smells the one thing that I can't find. Bad smell. Bad smell.

Bad smell. You're a little accent there. It's a little like a long island. Well, long island came in. I had a little vodka. Did you? I was out your drinking. Yeah.

Okay, we'll just go ahead and handle. All right, look, we should wrap this up because we have two, we've got an interview. We've got Owen Hagen's who's going to talk about amongst other things, resistance What happens if you play monopoly with real money? We've got to pay the pipe. There are no food watches in this completely reinvented game of an object. What does space sound like? What happens when you overwork yourself?

Do you believe that work-related stress has increased? It reflects the fact of how little value we place on the well-being of human beings. The Outline World Dispatch Every Monday, Tuesday, we bring you a new story on the well-being of human beings. The Outline World Dispatch Every Monday through Thursday, we bring you a new story on the theme of power, culture, or the future. And picked from theoutline.com. Find us an Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify, your Amazon Alexa Flash Briefing, or wherever

you download your podcasts. Also, you can say, OK, Google, play me the news, and we're right there. Oh my God, yeah! Make your mornings a little weirder. My guest today is a writer and journalist, and I think a brilliant man. His name is Owen Higgins.

You may be familiar with some of his content. He wrote a great piece for the outline last week about the resistance grifters. Owen, thank you for being here. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. So you did this piece for us, which I thought was quite charming and informative. And I've got a bunch of questions about it, but for the uninitiated for people who haven't read it, and by the way, if you haven't read it, you should go onto theoutline.com and check it out. Tell me a little bit about the genesis of this piece and you're thinking about like you're

thinking, like reasoning behind creating this particular piece of content for us. Yeah, so I posted a tweet back on August 13th, kind of ranking the resistance grifters, people who I felt were using the Trump years and kind of liberal anxiety over that for their own gain. And I kind of pitched that to you guys and worked out kind of a list, which includes people who are conspiracy theorists, people who are using this political moment,

the fact that everybody's kind of freaking out about Trump to just make more money. And then of course, the people, kind of these people from the George W. Bush administration and that kind of, I guess that kind of like conservative, conservative personalities, those people who are kind of reinventing themselves after being kind of, you know, pushed out of polite society after the Iraq war, are kind of reinventing themselves. The people who are like, I'm, you know, this is the real spirit of the conservative party, the Republican party is like this more centrist sort of, you know, this is the real spirit of the conservative party, the Republican party is like this more centrist sort of,

you know, lover of American, you know, classic American democracy and Trump is like treading on that and so suddenly they're like, I'm with you, Hillary or whatever, I mean, they're not with Hillary, but, you know. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, these are the neo-clans, these are the guys that, the guys that they don't care about any of these social issues that the base of the Republican Party cares about. All they care about is war.

And because Trump is like a threat to that, not because Trump doesn't like war, but because Trump is just kind of this chaotic, has this chaotic stupidity that kind of threatens this idea of American kind of endless war, kind of empire thing. They don't like him because of that. Like nobody should mistake this. They don't dislike him for anything that he's doing. They dislike him for the fact that he's unpredictable and he's making it more difficult to invade a rot. So that's almost, I mean, the way you just said that it's almost, and I'm sure this is not your intention, but it almost sounds like an endorsement of Trump. You know, like, because these guys suck, these guys suck too in a different way.

Yeah. I mean, I know you're not endorsing Trump, believe me. I mean, no, I think you are. No, no, I mean, I mean, Trump is, Trump is horrible and an utter disaster. And you know, one of, one of the worst things that could have happened to the country, but that doesn't change the fact that, you know, by, I guess, I guess, okay, I'm going to try and say it's differently. For me, the idea of Trump being impeached and leaving office and someone and Mike Pence becoming the president is almost more terrifying than the like utter Horror that we're in right now

Right Because make because Pence could get things done In a way that he's an actual political operator. Yeah, yeah, like he knows how to play the game, right? Trump just doesn't care. He just does whatever he wants. And like, to be clear, Trump and Pence are basically the same priorities. There's nothing that Pence would do that Trump wouldn't like. There's nothing that Trump is doing that Pence doesn't particularly like. It's just that that pencil be able to do it, maybe in a more, I guess a more professional manner. Right, like a more public.

No, it's not an endorsement of Trump. He's terrible. There'd be less like midnight tweets in all cap. Yeah, I mean, Pence would be, you know, fuck up and do stuff undercover of darkness like the Republicans normally do, right? Like he wouldn't be like, he wouldn't be like, we're going to launch a trade war on Twitter, like he would just do the trade war or whatever. But okay, but okay, let me challenge, I don't want to get off the, because I do want to talk about this piece, the Gryfters piece, but on the Pence thing, I hear you, I think

Pence is terribly dangerous. I know everybody's like, in Pete's Trump, which I think is actually a fucking fantasy at this point, but like, um, but Pence truly is a horrible person with horrible ideas. And really, and I believe this, uh, um, that Pence is a true believer in those ideas, which is makes him in, in my opinion, much more dangerous than Trump, because I don't think Trump really believes much. Like, I think that Trump is just moving from sort of moment to moment, trying to like score a victory

or a deal or a win or just like keep himself as ego inflated in some way. Like, so that's why there's so much, it's so erratic, because I don't think he has like a strategy to do something. You know, I think people said, put really conservatives to Supreme Court judges in in and Trump's like, okay, that makes sense.

If that makes the Republicans happy, I'll do that. Do you think Trump cares about Roe v Wade? I don't think he thinks about it for a second. No, I mean, it's like, he seems to, his one core belief is just his horrific racism. Right. No, that's the thing. Yeah, that seems to be it.

Like beyond that, like his understanding of the economy and politics is like rooted in like 1980s like action movies and like Michael Critein books. Like he doesn't, you know what I mean? Like, his view of the world is like escape from New York, basically. Yeah, yeah. His, he was like talking to the Japanese prime minister, Abe, like last week or something like that.

And people were like, you know, saying he doesn't understand that like their economy isn't, you know, the 80s and the 90s Japan. And I'm just saying myself, yeah, but like, he saw rising sun. Right. You know, was John Connery and, and, and it was like, yeah. He's like, that's who makes the walkman. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Like, his, his brain just stopped learning anything new in like 1992.

And like, that's it. It's so true. But, okay, but here's, here's my part about Pence. So Pence is fucking dangerous because he's a true believer and he believes a bunch of really crazy stuff. And truly is like, like I died in the wall, hardcore Christian, which I think is like,

as dangerous as a fundamental, any fundamentalist religion, any fundamentalist believer of any religion, right? Like, but, but, but nobody fucking voted for Pence. And, and when, when 2020 comes around, remember, we've only got a couple of years here. We got to ride out. And I really don't think Trump is going to be impeached between now and 2020. Like I just don't, I maybe there would be some, something started, but it's hard to

imagine. I mean, Mueller's still going. There's so much other stuff like the midterms have to happen. There's gonna be so much chaos around the midterms and the length of the court system. It's not like, yeah. I mean, the Kavanaugh thing, I don't know what's gonna happen to anyone, but long and short of it is like this.

We get it in 2020 and let's just say hypothetically, Trump has been impeached and removed from office and more dies. Or dies. Or die. The emphatemines and die coke by the way. I think everybody secretly harbors this fantasy that Trump is on the toilet tweeting and keels. His heart just fucking gives out.

I don't know if you read the report. I understand he's as healthy as an ox from what I, from what I read. So yeah. Yeah. But the, but the, but what I'm saying is like in 2020, nobody's going to, like anybody who was like, fuck yeah, Trump, those fucking magahat wearing whoever they are are not coming out for Mike Pence unless I'm like, grossly underestimating how truly stupid the Republican's are. No, I mean, I think that like Mike Pence is like, you know, he's, he's a true believer in, in the kind of anti abortion anti gay rights, uh, you know, weighing up the evangelicals, but, but the reality is the white evangelicals really only care about one thing and that's hating black people

I mean like that's that's what the entire movement is based on No matter what they tell you back in the 60s in the 70s the white evangelical movement was purely a back lash against the It was white backlash against the civil rights movement. I mean that that's all it all it was all that ever is. And whenever I see people on network news, ringing their hands over like, I can't believe that the evangelical vote is still with Trump after all this stuff. It's like, yeah, they don't care about any of that stuff. All they care about is that he hates black people

as much as they do. It's such a transparent, I mean, what's so crazy to me about the era we live in is like, he hates black people as much as they do. It's such a transparent, I mean, what's so crazy to me about the era we live in is like, if you have a brain at all and a notion of like humanity, it's so transparent when you see these people like, the event, like literally every fucking word that comes out of an event juggle's mouth who like is pro Trump is meaningless to me, me. It's like nothing you say about your religion

or your beliefs could have any fucking meaning based on the person you would like to see making decisions for human beings in this country. So, and I think that's so transparent, right? Like the Roy Moore stuff. It's so obvious, like your goals are not good. You're not good people, you're not kindhearted. You're not loving. You're not good people, you're not kindhearted,

you're not loving. You know, you're shitty, you're bad. Yeah. And I'm sorry, like, we can disagree on abortion. I'm happy to say, I'm not that I would count maybe zero friends that are pro-life. But listen, if I met somebody in their reasonable person, they're like, well, listen, in this particular case,

I'm sorry, I just, in pro life, you know, I would have a heated, from sure a heated debate with them, but I'm not like I just completely disregard their entire existence because we disagree on this one point. I can understand the point. I actually make a lot sense to me. But, but it's like that.

If that were, if that were just like the one thing, you know, if it were like, well, we really are pro-life and you know, it's Christian ideals and all this stuff. It's like, you can't be all of these things at once. Like, you just can't be. You can't love what Trump does and be this like spiritual kind person. And you can't talk about like, I'm spiritual kind.

I'm pro-life because I think that all clusters of cells are babies and I want to protect it. And then be like kids and cages, whatever, deport whoever killed whoever. No healthcare. The fucking fucking crazy. It's just nonsense. The stuff would, I mean, I don't know if you listened to it. I talked about this in the last podcast and I don't know if you listened to it.

I'm not a big daily fan, but they did it. They did two episodes on the border separations. And it was crazy. Just listening to them talk about the enormous amount of lying the government did and like the abuse, I'm just really listening to people who've gone and reported on it and like the abuse. It's like you cannot be a Christian,

like a good Christian and let that happen and feel comfortable with it, you know? Okay, so hold on, so here's my thought though, but with Pence, he's dangerous, he sucks, and then Jockels, a full of shit shit agree, totally agree on that. But do you really think that Republicans will turn out in vote for Pence in 2020? The way they, I'm not going to like to turn out was crazy, but clearly Trump got some people motivated to come and vote. Like, do you see that happening in 2020? If Trump gets impeached and Pence is the guy they've

got to put up, are they putting somebody else up. I mean, even if they put Trump up, just, well, they can't put Trump. I mean, okay, fine, but I'm just saying, if Penn, like, is that the president, they activated, if Pence is the president, like, they run him, right? And then are people voting for him? I think, I think the thing that we need to remember is that he'll be going up against somebody from the Democratic Party. And like, if there is an institution in American life that can fuck this up, it's the Democrats. So like I'm serious though, like, like, I know that, like, I am saying a kind of humorous way, but seriously, like, if there's a way to blow it, don't blow it. I don't believe you. I've been trying to think of the combinations of Democrats that could win. Like, like, because it's got to be a duo, I think. Like at this point, you know what I mean?

I mean, one of the things about Hillary, I mean, of course there are many, you know, I don't want to get into the whole Hillary thing. But like, I know everybody's got as many problems with Hillary. But like, I think like the Tim Cain thing to me was one of the most profound fucking like, so you're running made is just this like, I mean, I understand Trump, it was the mirror image of Sarah Palin. It was like the exact of everything boring, everything whatever, if you could take all of what made Sarah Palin electrifying to Republicans

and then image reverse it into what would make, what would make even a even a very middle of the road Democrat will not excited. Yeah, that's Tim Cain in it. That was wild. But like, like, you know what I mean? Like, because I think if you had a throne like, uh, I mean, now first of I mean, my thing was like, how could just just be like Bernie? Just like Bernie. Are you like, just Bernie? I know like people, I would have been, if I were Hilarite, I'd have been like, please Bernie, just fucking ride with me here. Like BMI VP, and I know that sounds crazy to people,

but that shit would have been really sick. I think that would have been very effective, right? Like, they definitely would have won together. But just like anybody who's like, you know, to your point, so now I think of Duos. Like, who are the people that we know of right now who could reasonably challenge Trump? It Trump now, we're not talking about Pence.

So because I think with Pence, it's more of a, you know, you could throw a Biden in there. I think it's like Biden versus Pence. I don't wanna say it. No, I get it, but I don't wanna say it. And I think, what? I am thinking you get like a Bloomberg. Oh, nobody's gonna go from. I know.

Michael, June, Michael Bloomberg. I'm saying as vice. You put that in there. Sorry. And then you can throw someone exciting at the top of the ticket. I don't know. Someone electrifying.

Oh, and your life president? Yeah. A Jewish vice president. Yeah, I don't know that America can handle. I know if America can handle a Jew that close to the oblong. I mean, they rejected in 2000. Right. Well, I should know they actually technically did elect them, but that's an other source.

That's true. That is true. Okay, but they found a way. Right. They found a way to kill that. They found a way to kill that. I completely forgot. God, what did another shitty fucking choice for a running man?

Oh, just terrible. Terrible. You know, you know know my Lieberman. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, just like that. People forget about him. It's the worst such a fucking piece of shit. Slime.

Anyhow, you know, one of the great, great example of the democratic, like the classic, you know, the classic DNC sort of democratic party move. It's like, here's this. Oh, just like, here's this. Just like, but just like a total loathsome, like just horrible, horrible man, who immediately showed exactly who he was

during the Bush administration. But as far as like, I think that unless it's like a governor or something, I think it's Kirsten Jill Rand is gonna win the nomination. So you just, yeah, I think that there's no question about that. Bernie's not gonna win it. There's no way Bernie will win.

Do you think he's running? If he runs, if he runs, he will not, he won't be the nominee. But I don't even know if he does. I think maybe he wants to play King Macer. I think. I mean, people think, I mean, but you know the thing about Bernie is like,

I think people have this, I think people have this notion that Bernie is like a slam dunk. And I think if it Bernie won the nomination, I don't think it's a slam dunk at all. I mean, I think it's a real uphill battle for a lot, yes. For a lot of America. I think the closest it came to a slam dunk

was like 2016 for him because. But like, but it's a combo, but if there's a combo there, if it's like Bernie and like, and he's got a running mate who is like, it's like Bernie, I don't, I'm just throwing shit out here by the way. It's like Bernie and like Cory Booker. Now Cory Booker, I'm just throwing out,

I'm just throwing out like the kind of thing that a mainstream Democrat is like. I don't know who tweeted it, but someone said Cory Booker was made in a Buzzfeed lab to lose the Don't like and it's true. It's really good. It's really like maybe or maybe thing is the Bernie's tools. Like that's just that's just what Trump's too old and he's the fucking president. But Trump is younger than Bernie. He is younger than Bernie. And that's the thing is that like, I think that if you're going up against Trump, you have to like talk about the fact that his brain doesn't work, you

know, like you have to, you have to. I think, I mean, but like, but do, do the Democrat, do any Democrats have the guts to address that head on? Or is it, you know, the Democrats are famous for, I think about the whole time, the John Kerry Swift boat shit, and we've talked about the part of the podcast where you know, it's like, John Kerry should have been like, hey, fuck you.

Like, you know, this shit happened and I'm not gonna stand here and like take the shit, by the way, I mean, not saying John Kerry is great, but I'm just saying like the play was it was like when they go, you know, when they go low, we go high. It's always the Democrats are always like playing a different game. It's also a bad idea of what high is. No, but they don't play from top of their intelligence.

They play from top of being like, I don't know. I could trick you. Look over here. We're talking about bigger. But there's this whole idea of like, it's like be the bigger man. It's like, well, actually like with Trump, that shit doesn't work. Like, it's been proven to fail. Like, you know, like, you actually have to kind of go

for the jugular, you know? And like, and that's not always the dumbest, or the lowest move. Like, I think Obama kind of won some, I think he won some points when like, the race thing became a thing, and he like, and the Reverend Wright thing was a thing, and he was like, I'm gonna to address this and talk about it.

I think that was a very different move for a Democrat because usually Democrats are like, it's like, I can't see your point. Like, yeah, don't look over there. Look over here. Oh, well, what about, I don't know this. If Obama had shown like the kind of merciless, politicking and willingness to do what needed to be done that he did with like cutting Reverend Wright loose for the rest of the time that he was in office. I think that he would have had a lot more success, but he got into office and then like kind of immediately

was like, well, we're going to have to compromise. And I think that Democrats always do that. And that's a classic Democrat thing too. No, they love it. Democrats love to be like, they are the people. I mean, there's a famous, they're like, what is the fucking thing with like the, I don't know, there's some famous story here

that I can't think of like so. Give a mouth to cookie. No, and I give a mouth to cookie. Because that's what it's like to do too. It's like, let me read you across the aisle. And they think that across the aisle, there's another hand reaching out. But actually, it's fucking. And you're meeting equally.

It's a fucking alligator and it chumps their hand off. And they're like, I can't. Oh my God. I just think the middle of the aisle keeps slowly moving and we keep reaching and they keep reaching a little less. But it's like, yeah, these guys, you can't give them any quarter.

It's clear to me that the Republicans would not give, he look at it, the Republicans will not give Democrats of any fucking quarter. Like, of course, they want to hold on to everything they can for as long as they can. And the Democrats are like, well, maybe you guys will actually act swell to us. Like, maybe it'll be okay.

It's never fucking okay. We'll treat you with dignity and you'll treat us. That's the thing. I get like being the better person, maybe it'll be okay. It's never fucking okay. Well, treat you with dignity and you treat us. It's the same thing. I get like being the better person, but it's not working. Now that works in like your co-op where you're talking about whatever, it doesn't work on a national scale and you're talking to like a VM and KKK member who also like, but people in cages.

Right, it's like the further they reach across the aisle, the more that the Rahulika party moves into like a fucking outer space. No, into like they're moving into white hoods and SS out. Oh, yeah. Okay. So you didn't answer my question. Pence 2020, what do you think his odds are? 50, 50. Fuck for sure. Yeah, 50, 50, that's bad news.

for security. Yeah, it's 50-50. Well, that's bad news. Yeah, I mean, because it should be like, he has like a 20% chance, but I think he has a 50% chance because of the Democrats. Who, so you think Gillibrand is a slam dunk for the nominations? Are you telling me? I think if it's going to be a senator, it's 100% gonna be her. And okay, if it's not a senator, then I had no idea. No, no. It could be somebody like you remember, because we were talking,

if this was 12 years ago, right? And we were talking about who was gonna be the nominee in 2008, like we would not be talking about the person who won. Yeah, no, I was convinced because he wasn't even on our radar. So that happened. Where's the next? Yeah, yeah, you know, I remember too, and he was running. I'm like, no, America's never going to go for this name.

I was just like, I don't, he maybe, he seems great. But no matter what, I know America, they're just not going to go for, they can't handle this name. I was just like, I don't, he maybe, he seems great. But no matter what, I know America, they're just not going to go for, they can't handle this name. Like it's too, it's too far afield for America. Then I was like, you know, shocked to discover that was not a barrier. I thought it would be something as stupid as that. So, you know, of course, the race issue, but like I was like the combination of all this is just no way this guy's going to become president. But I think it's like, look, you had, this is the thing. I do get a little bit of hope when I think about this point.

I think people were so broken by Bush, the Bush presidency. I think generally the mood of the country was so broken by it that they wanted, they needed something radically different, right? And like Obama, in many, many ways, for a lot of Americans, I mean, probably the majority of voting Americans, Obama looked like a radically different type of candidate, you know? He was like, when you were trapped in like a circuit city,

and someone was like, you wanna come over to the Apple store? And not saying the Apple store is perfect, but America was like, it's sleek, it's wow. It's clean. That's a really, and now we were in the Apple store for a while, and someone was like, you's sleek. It's wow. It's clean. That's a really, and now we were in the Apple store for a while and someone's like, you want the shitty Android phone I found on this street?

We were like, yeah, jailbreak me, baby. That's it. Wow, I, Ryan, you've got to hold you a bit here, but that's interesting to think about. Yeah, right, it's like, that's actually a really good analogy though. It's like, I, like I, yeah, that, the Android phone is like, you can hack it

and do all kinds of fucking things. Yeah, it's just crazy. It's got some more Chinese. It's got like malware. Oh, it's down on this. But it's like fast and loose. Yeah, versus like this clean sort of very, very like guided experience we've been having in the, yeah, the Obama. So I was like, and then it was like, you want a knife on later? Do you want this crazy jailbreak thing? And you really want to jailbreak thing and you really

really jailbreak it's like the galaxy. No, it's like this, it's like the slick piece of technology that like, it does, it does, it works really well. But like, you know, it's also listening to you all the time, you know, like, you don't do everything you want to do. It's not that you want to do it again, what you want. You can't install your own like you can't use like your different browser, you know, but But it does a lot of things does a lot of things you need it to do and it does them reasonably well. Yeah

Like headphone jack is do like doesn't have a headphone jack anymore like it's just like it's changing things You don't want to change it. You wanted to put a headphone jack We like when it's Samsung is like check this out. You can it's like you can install, anything you want on it, it's got a fucking pen, it's got six cameras. It's got an app that's seven in, it's entirely piracy. It's a seven inch phone. It's like, whoa, this is a crazy uncharted new territory.

They're like, none of it works. It sounds crazy. A bunch of people are like, where on it, a bunch of care, you're like, Verizon apps and shit on it. Yeah. But they're offering it at a pretty low price. And you're like, yeah, you're like,

I guess I'll try something different. It's gonna go crazy, baby. I mean, I just said I'm saying it makes a pretty decent phone nowadays, but I understand the analogy. Not to get into the qualities of Samsung's devices, but okay. All right, so let's get to the topic at hand here.

We gotta talk about these grifters. Good time with grifters. You wrote this article. I wanna talk about, I really thought this was good. I enjoyed it. It's basically like all these people who are like hashtag resistance. But are like, you know, like John Brennan

is a really good example. You know, John Brennan who is like, you know, I think if you look at his record, most people, especially a liberal or left, or leftists or left leaning would look at his record and go like, this is not a good guy. He's not like my buddy. This is the head of CIA, the CIA, right? CIA does a lot of fucked up shit. I'm not saying CIA is just bad, but they do a lot of bad stuff. But before we even, like, what let's get until what specifically is a grifter and

what are these people are using the resistors. It's a good question. What's a criteria for a resistance grifter? Yeah, so I just kind of like went for people that I felt were kind of conning people in the resistance. So like when I think of the resistance, I kind of think of, you know, people at the women's march, who, you know, it's like their first political action that they've taken, maybe

ever, certainly a long time. Kind of like blue dog Democrats, blue dog. People who, people who just kinda like, it's not even so much that they disagree with everything that Trump is trying to do. It's just that they don't like the fact that he's really rude. You know? So that's kind of how I think of the resistance.

Right. But the thing is that they're also also, a lot of people within that group as well, they have real reasons to feel really threatened by the Trump administration, people who have color, gay people, women, immigrants. Immigrants, yeah. And I think that for a lot of those people, and all the groups that I mentioned before too, I think that there's just this feeling of omnipresent dread about the Trump administration. You're always just kind of reaching for something that could possibly stop all of this from happening. And what these grifters are doing is that they're taking advantage of that kind of desperation and that need for some kind of an answer, that need for just the promise that this will be over soon that that Trump will go away and they're either, you

know, doing this to sell books or to get donations or just for become like a kind of celebrity, like a Twitter celebrity or yeah, just become famous or, you know, like, like, as we've mentioned a couple times, like, you know, and I was really thinking about this when you were saying just a couple of minutes ago about how the mood of the country after Bush, it's hard to remember now, but people hated him, and they hated his administration,

and all of these people that were in his orbit were kind of disgraceful on time, and now they're using the resistance to kind of con their way back into play society. So, so there's a lot of different ways that the grip is coming out. But basically what is this, is just people taking advantage of this movement and this desperation to con their way into whatever they want. Right. Like David from, is like a classic warmonger.

I mean, like he's a, I mean, this guy's like very responsible for the Iraq war, basically. I mean, in many ways, right? And now he's like this, you know, his presence is like this elder statesman who, it's like, we must respect the rule of law and democracy in America. And this is in a front. And, you know, it's like, fuck you. Like you literally help to sell like a completely invented war for the purposes of commerce to America,

which resulted in like hundreds of thousands of not millions of deaths at this point, right? Yeah, yeah, don't know. I mean, I would say almost definitely like about a million deaths, completely destabilized the entire Middle East. Created ISIS essentially. Created ISIS, I mean, it's all based on bullshit.

And he just gets to kind of pretend that that didn't happen, I guess. Now he's a freedom fighter. Yeah, he's like one of us. Yeah, now he's an editor for the Atlantic. Now, you know, and he's, you know, writes this book called Trumpocracy and keeps like whining and and and sniffling about like how, you know, this is in like the conservative moment. This isn't what it's supposed to be, but like, you know, well, first of all, bullshit, that's what it is. Right.

That's what it has been my whole life. And second of all, like that, that's not enough to watch that blood from your hands, man. But because of, because of the fact that he is saying that he thinks that Trump is bad that people just love him. Right. And so let me, I have a question of, I'm gonna challenge, not challenge exactly, because I don't wanna thank I'm defending anybody

on this list, but I was surprised Michael Avanade is on here. Now, there's no doubt that Michael Avanade is a, he's probably, he's probably, he's probably, he's been,ati is a... He's probably... He's probably a tunist, he's been... Yeah, yeah, he's definitely been grifting. I mean, I grit, you know, he's definitely an opportunist. And I think if you look at his career,

I mean, his career seems to actually fairly interesting for what I've read. But like, the Starmid annual thing, like was actually, he certainly took full advantage of something, but it was a fairly, it's been a fairly important part of whatever's going on in Trump's orbit around Trump's behavior and whether or not he's done things

that are literally illegal. It seems like the initial presentation of Michael Avenatti on the scene was kind of like, he's yes, he's loud, he's loud mouth, he's outspoken, he's on TV, but his actual point wasn't like by my book. It was like, we have dirt on Trump and it's gonna come out and it's important for people to know this, which it turns out, and you can correct me if I'm wrong,

and I'd like to hear your take on this, was actually somewhat true. So was there a point where he converted from just that guy who's like Stormy Daniels story deserves to be heard and we're going to get it out there because it's important to like grifter or was that all part of the grift? No, I mean, I think that I think with I think Avonadi is maybe someone who who does travel line a little bit there. I think that it can both be true

that this guy is a publicity hound and is relishing in his role within the hashtag resistance to, I mean, he's like floating the idea that he's going to run for president now. He's, you know, he's, he's talking about like all of this, you know, he turns everything to a press conference. I mean, he, he, he loves the spotlight, you know.

I mean, could, but he could probably, I mean, like he wouldn't get the nomination, but he'd probably get some people pretty fired up if he read. Like, I think people. Yeah. I mean, so I guess, I guess what I'll say is that I don't, I'm not 100% on, on whether or not he is going to run or if he's just doing this for attention, but I would say that it can both be true that he is kind of grifting his audience for attention and publicity on the one hand. And it can also be true on the other hand

that the work that he's doing for Stormy Daniels is actually professional work that he's doing for his client to get this stuff out there. I think both of those things can be true with him. You know what I mean? Yeah. So he exists maybe in a slightly different space in some of these other folks, like fucking Louise Mench.

Yeah. Which is like Louise Munch is like a is a I mean I know when really takes her seriously right. She's like buddies with Milo like isn't I mean isn't she like just a complete piece of shit unless I'm mistaken like does anybody actually are persistence people actually like paying attention to what she says. So they're both her and Eric Garland and Seth Abramson. Eric Garland is the time for some game theory, right? That's his name. Yeah. And Scott to work in and the Crasenstein brothers and I think that's it pretty much on the list. Are probably the people who are taking the least seriously out of everybody, right?

I mean, like they're just, they're all pretty much just blatant frauds. I don't think anybody really takes them too seriously, but they do have a pretty strong social media following all of the people that I'm talking about here. And I think that that's why they... I think that that's why they... Even though people don't take them seriously and it's just obvious what they're doing, some people do take them seriously. And enough of those people take them seriously

to merit their inclusion even though, like anybody with like half a brain takes one look at these guys and it's just like this really kills. And then there are the people like Nicole Wallace or for example like Anna Navarro who they're pivot to resistance media and whatever from conservative, like conservatism, conservative politics kind of stuff, makes people take them even more seriously because they're like, they must really know.

And they must re, they're, they're being very centrist and fair because they've turned, you know, they were part of the GOP and now they're saying this. So they must know. And so everyone takes everything that they say as opposed to saying you had terrible opinions and now you have slightly less terrible opinions because you had an opportunity to work here at the view or MSNBC or whatever. And that's a really good point. Like there is a trend line here where it's like the fact that it's like used to be in,

you know, you worked for George W. Bush and so, wow, what a profound moment here that you are, as a conservative, even you, as a conservative, you are voicing your concern about what is happening in our country. And not to make it a totally different topic, but that's also the McCain thing of like everyone

held McCain up as, and we could talk a lot about his positive, and his negatives, and we'll talk about that in a second. But it was another example of someone being like, if John McCain says this is bad, it must be bad. As opposed to saying like, you know, if someone who has never had opinions

that I've disagree with, it continues to say that this is bad, like I would take them more seriously. It's sort of like, guess, a logical foul say. Yeah. I think, you know, as far as Nicole Wallace goes, of every single person on the list, she's the only one that I respect. And it's a grudging respect

because I think that she is absolutely like reptilian. I mean, like she's, she's, and like not like a a reptoid, but like like she's just not a shape shifter Not a shape shifter, but she's she's yeah, she's incredibly talented Like if anybody who's watched her show will like can tell that immediately very talented on the camera and like can tell that immediately, very talented on the camera. And she has a lot of on-air charisma, and what she's using that for, and what she's using her position at MSNBC and her position in the quote-unquote resistance, is to basically rehabilitate the image of the entire George W. Bush administration.

Because at any time that you go on to a show, I mean, it's just like a parade of these, you know, neocon ghouls who like should have no place in in place society, right? After, after the Bush administration, let alone the fact that Wallace was, you know, press secretary through some pretty horrible things and was spending that for the media. But, you know, she spends her entire show just kind of like talking about how Trump is bad because he is hurting the national security state, as opposed to Trump is bad because the things that he's doing are bad within the American system. But she's really good at it.

Right. So it's interesting. Very interesting. I mean, I hadn't thought of it that So, it's interesting. Very interesting. I mean, I hadn't thought of it that way, but it is very true. Like, it's almost admirable. You know, almost. I mean, I don't think the three way describe it,

but it's something that you can have respect for, even while you realize that it's just completely scumming a needle. Right. Yeah, I mean, it's really an amaroza. Yeah. All right, Amaroza. I'm just,

my deep and powerful respect for Amaroza as a manipulator and media figure, knowing that she's true, the true embodiment of sociopathy. Well, Amaroza is really interesting too, because it's like, I mean, actually, I feel like could be on the list, you know, but it's not quite the same thing, but it's like, I mean, she, I feel like could be on the list, you know, but not quite the same thing,

but it's like, I mean, she's a grifter. Might be just a resistance grifter, but she's a grifter. Yeah, but she's on a level that these guys can't even like. They can't even hold to be on what she does. Like, she's a grifter supernova. Who's the fucking journalist that I hate who wrote that book, Michael Wolfe, who I truly despise him as a journalist and I think he fucking sucks. But talk about a grift, talk about it, whatever he did, and I do, I do believe most of,

I mean, a lot of his books probably is just sort of invented, which is also kind of amazing. Amazing. I did. Like, if you could just make it up, that's cool too. Like, more power to you, I think you should run with that. That's a kind of griff, if you ask me. It's a much higher level griff.

He got in the White House. It's a griff with a hustle. It's a real hustle, anyhow. He just sat there. He sat there. He sat there. No, no. He's amazing.

Okay. Here's what I want to know. If this was premeditated or acted, and then which is like, I think he kind of like was like favorably talking about Trump, like leading up to the election. And then use that, correct me my wrong, use that to like say, hey, you guys are doing such amazing things, I want to be inside, I want to see what happens.

And then wrote a book that was like, these people are fucking animals that should be put down or whatever, you know, they're like completely out of control. Did it, do you think he always intended to do that? Because I guess in that case, he's a fucking genius. Or did he link his finger, feel the way the words are going? Maybe I could give, roll the dice on this one if I can get in there. I think, I think that he, he probably was like, I can see the way that this is going. And that's why I'm in. I think I think that he he probably was like I can see the way that this is going and That's why I'm in I think he could see the way things were going Once Trump got elected and was like everyone's gonna hate these guys So I'm just gonna write this book and the best script was can pivot

All right, let's talk about John McCain real quick. Yeah wrap up here because we get we're running out a little bit out of time But we it's there's so much horrible shit to talk about. There's, you know, you can't fit it all into one segment. So John McCain has died. John McCain, now people, I think a hot button issue for people who identify as Democrats, some form of Democrat, has been how to talk about John McCain, his legacy. There's been a big heated debate between I would say you can only be nice to him left to his liberals. Left to his liberals have been battling it out. It's usual, which is like, you know, right, there's two people are like he was

a great American hero. He was an honorable man. He said, didn't he? He said no, I thought for that. He's like, no, bomb is not an Arab, which is the worst thing you could be. It's just a regular American. There are people like, you got to honor his amazing legacy. And then there's people who are, here's what I think when I think of John McCain.

I think John McCain introduced Sarah Palin to the American public, like with a smile on his fucking face and for that he should he's his his his memory is permanently tarnished as far as i'm concerned i don't get even the health of the fact that politician to just all to be honest but like oh and what are your thoughts on on the legacy of john mccain also the battle to figure out how we should just talk about his legacy on the internet on

twitter in the two days it matters. Yeah, I mean, well, I obviously think that John McCain was not a good person and was not a good politician and did a lot of damage with his time in power and that because he's a public figure, he should be remembered that way by the country. I think that one of the things that has been missing in the way that he's being remembered is Because you know people are saying people people bring up that Obama's not an Arab thing a lot and and a lot of people are rightfully saying that that was actually not like he wasn't saying something particularly good there

You know like because of the there. You know, like because of the implication of what he said that being an Arab was antithetical to American values. But I think that there's this idea that he was this, you know, upstanding guy who fought for Americans of all colors and creeds. And that's kind of driving a lot of like the way that people are talking about him. But, you know, that leaves out a lot, you know, because as a member of Congress, he voted against sanctions on apartheid South Africa six times.

He voted against the creation of Martin Luther King Day in 1983. He endorsed Arizona's, you know, the paper's please, border security law back in like a The Obama years. Yeah, that wasn't that long ago, but he was right behind that. He called for, you know, to complete the Dan, the Dan F fence, which was, you know, the border wall. I mean, on all of these issues, he was, he was very bad. And none of this stuff is mentioned when people are remembering him. All of the...

Well, it's again, death, you know, in death suddenly, I mean, I understand, it's like, you know, this, you know, propriety gets in the way of truth all the time, doesn't it? I mean, particularly in America, particularly in like the conversation, particularly with the media, mainstream media, you know, the New York Times bends over backwards all the time to be propriitous instead of correct, you know, like, like, or whatever their idea of propriety is. It's like the, what was the fucking, um, well, it's like, they write a hegeography where they're like, here's the hits. What was the headline the other day? Oh, the,

the, the, the, the one about the, the murder. They had, um, you know, there's this, I can't think of the Twitter account, but it's like, it tracks changes to New York Times headlines. Newsdiffs. And it's like, I forget what it is. It's like editing the gray lady. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not newsdiffs, but it was like, they did it, you know, they did a headline that was like,

well, I mean, this is kind of maybe not even the right example, but it was like, you know, illegal immigrant kills woman in blah, blah, blah. And it's like, it took them like seven versions of the headline to make it what it, the story actually was about, which is Trump ceases on murder of woman to push his anti-immigration narrative or whatever,

which is actually what was happening. It was like he was at a rally being like, this is what I'm telling you everybody. You know, but like God for CMS. But they do shit, you know, where it's like Trump uses mistruths to, and it's like, you mean he lied about something? Like, were you trying to be nice to him?

Yeah. Like, you know, they had this, I mean, I think they had a, they've had a conversation about like, well, we don't want to say lie because we don't know his intentions. It's like, well, infer his fucking intentions. Yeah. Like, you can use your brain, you know, but they're like, well, it don't want to say lie because we don't know his intentions. It's like, well, infer his fucking intentions. Yeah. Like, you can use your brain, you know, but they're like, well, we'd be improprietous for

us to any have the point is I feel like the media in general, the conversation when someone dies, always becomes like, you know, like if tomorrow Harvey Weinstein dies, you know the fucking headline in so many good movies. The headline of times going to be like a, you know, leaving behind a complex legacy, movie mogul Harvey Weinstein dies or whatever, right? You know, and it's like, you guys like Shakespeare love. So it's not that complex. You did a bunch of rapes that we found out about.

Yeah. All the other stuff he did is sort of like, it feels like we could just concentrate on the rapes. Like, not that. Important to anybody. Sorry, like you lose, you lose, you get to get the credit for Shakespeare in love if you did any rapes.

Okay, that's the, we'll give that to Gwyneth. That's the rule. That's the rule. That's the rule work at all. Like that, like, you know, when I watch movies, you know, because I grew up in like the, you know,

90s and 80s and 90s. And I remember Miramax. Great time, great time, great time. It's time in American history. Yeah, fucking Quentin Tarantino, right? I mean, it was just like Miramax was his fucking soul. But now, right, when I see that logo come up, like on cable, or like, even if it's a movie that I know that I like and I want to watch, like there is that moment when I'm like,

oh shit, you know, because I remember what he did and I kind of like ruined the experience for me. And I'm not saying that in a way that like means that, that that's like the worst thing to happen with Harvey Wayne saying something like that. What I'm saying is like, that's not a complex legacy. Like that's his legacy. That's who he is.

But that's the thing is that, right? And that's the thing with McCain is like, yeah, first off, yes, he was a prisoner of war. He was tortured, like that's real. And that's like, he should be honored for going to war for his country. It was the wrong war, you know, bad war. I mean, what are complex people?

What war is good, but I mean, I'm just saying like he went to war as a young man and he went through a pretty, what I understand is a fairly hellish experience. Off-off. You know, and like, you know, let's, okay, fine, let's not forget that. Like, let's not pretend like that didn't happen. Like, that's something that he did in service to his country. And, you know, I would not, but would not, but then look at the fucking record. The apartheid votes are an amazing example of this kind of stuff.

Look at even, people act like McCain has been like this really vocal, like, you know, Trump anti-Trump or whatever. But like the reality is that that wasn't really. Or even if it's like healthcare vote, sure, the healthcare vote, it's like that's one tiny little thing. But in the grand scheme of what was going on with his party while Trump was rising, where was McCain saying, this is fucked up. Like Republicans need to rally against this,

whatever's happening here, like he wasn't talking about that shit. Or even the thing that people say, which is like take Trump out of it. He believed what he believed, and he fought for where he believed because he thought it was right for his country. It's like, okay, but what he believed was bad and heard a lot of people,

and he fought really hard to make that happen. So lots of people who do terrible things truly believe what they're doing. It doesn't exist. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, let's jump right. Let's just jump right to Hitler. But no, but that is the thing. It's like, that's the stuff that's so easy to ignore because you're worried about.

Are you honoring? But listen, I feel like you, I don't you feel like like you can honor that stuff. We are complex people who can hold the two ideas in our heads. Also, he died of cancer, which is a sensitive topic for a lot of people. He had the same kind of cancer that two weeks ago, my cousin has just been diagnosed with stage three. And so this news hit my family really hard, not from a political standpoint, but it was tough to hear.

And the people dancing on the cancer grade. No, I'll say this. There were people dancing on the cancer group because't want to hear. No, I'll say this. Because there are people dancing on the cancer group because of the healthcare stuff. I'll say this. I mean, the thing about that, okay, here's the thing that fucking annoyed me on Twitter. Of course, Twitter, everything, you know,

I was a person on Twitter. You should know we should look at Twitter, basically. But if you do, no, I was this thing that I thought was like, like I agree with the sentiment that people are like, fuck you, McCain, Reston, hell, or whatever. You know, like I understand the sentiment that people are like, fuck you, McCain, Reston Hell, or whatever. I understand the sentiment. Sure. I'm sure that we share many of the same political views.

I just think in general, I'm not saying don't talk about the true kind of person someone was when they die, but celebrating the death, to me, is also unnecessary. I saw a lot of, not gonna name names, but people are like, so fucking glad this piece of shit is dead. It's like, I do understand the sentiment,

but if Trump died tomorrow, okay, maybe I'm putting myself out there in a really weird way right now, but if Trump died tomorrow, which, I wanna be clear, I'm not making any threats, but would I be like, fuck, yes, Trump is dead on Twitter. I think you can feel that and you can feel sad for Baron and you can, you can, and you can, and you can feel sad for me.

No, but you can feel sad for the reverts, like, you know, Tiffany or whoever. I'm sorry for America, actually, that he, that he, he is alive. You can also, you can also want to take a dump on his grave and post a picture or like whatever, but it's not what I, we're complicated people. What I tweet it. I think this is the thing that I find. You mean publicly.

Like, like, is it necessary to say, this is the shit that John McCain did as a politician and here's why it was fucked up. I guess what I'm saying is, you know, it's different to do that than to say, like, so glad John McCain is dead, which is just sort of tacky. You know, I think that, like,

what am I going to say? When someone like McCain dies, media, both like social media and news media, are like so consumed with, you know, I think what you've referred to as, and news media are so consumed with, I think what you've referred to as hagiography, not really sure how to pronounce that word, hagiography. Yeah.

All right, so they're consuming this hagi graphic way of remembering this guy, where it's not necessarily based in reality and a lot of it is kind of, you know, papering over the horrible things that he did. And I think that there's an impulse to like react to that strongly in the other way. react to that strongly in the other way. But while I think that you could easily say that if McCain had died 40 years earlier, maybe the world would have been a better place because he wouldn't have, you know, like a lot of these wars wouldn't have been extended that he had advocated for, like, like I'm saying, yeah, the surge, I'm saying, like, you could make that argument, right? And I think that it's totally fine to make that

argument, you know, when, on, on, you know, within minutes of him dying because he's a public figure. And I don't think that you get to like kind of wriggle out of being remembered for who you were when you're a public figure and you are being remembered as a public figure. But going on to a social media platform where your every thought is viewable by millions and millions of people if they if they want to and saying fuck yeah i'm glad he's dead um... i'm not even saying that that's like the the the wrong reaction to have

i'm just saying that's kind of dumb because of you like you know i mean right i think it's totally fine i mean it's fully fine to go on to the social media and be like, even to say that, like I said, that if he had died earlier, maybe the world would have been a better place. I think that's totally, that's fine, like whatever. But to then say, I am personally happy that this other human being is dead.

For me, that's just, I mean, I'm not even saying that I disagree with that sentiment, or I agree with it. All I'm saying is that that is like, to me, seems like you're making things a little too personal for a forum, a public forum where millions of people can see your side. I agree. I just like kind of import taste.

But yeah, I mean, you wrote about, to some degree, you wrote about this for us in July, sorry July 2017. Yeah, yeah, like here. Yeah. Well, time flies, which is a piece called, you can feel bad about John McCain's cancer and still hate his legacy, which I think makes a makes this argument at the time when he was, I think this is sort of right when it was announced that he was sick or very sick. Yeah, I was like a couple days after him.

Yeah, you know, and it kind of articulates this point exactly, which is like, there's kind of a separation there that is, that is healthy to have and as a human being like that. And by the way, I mean, again, like, it's, yeah, I don't know. I guess I don't feel happy about, I don't, I don't get, I don't feel like overjoyed about pretty much anybody dying for the most part, I guess, like, even the worst people. I mean, I can imagine people, like if I were alive during the time of Hitler and I heard there, like Hitler's dead, I'd be like, that's fucking great. I would get a personal thrill if Trump died because it would mean danger, avoid a danger for me, however.

But like, I can't think of a person who's died recently who... That is an extreme example. Who did not have enough of a complicated like persona, public person that I wasn't some part of me. It's like, well, they were a person though. You know, like they were actually human beings. There's no such thing as a slip-free slope in my opinion. part of me, it's like, well, they were a person though. You know, like they were actually human beings.

There's no such thing as a slippery slope in my opinion. And we can tell, you can tell art, you can tell porn, when you look at it, I can tell whether someone is a human, complicated human being who made multiple choices in their life and leaves a complex legacy, or if they're like a human monster, like Hitler. And I think I can look at that and tell the difference. I can tell the difference. I'm an adult. That's the thing that was so crazy when, I mean, this is a whole rabbit hole and I don't want to go down it right now, but I'll just say this.

And then we had to wrap it like, the Assam bin Laden thing, you know, when they killed him. I in no way, I'm not going to defend anything about what Assam bin Laden did in his life, you know, but like, but like, but we but we but like and I and and certainly I understand the reason why there was a Celebratory mood amongst a certain component of Americans But the idea that but the idea that that I would get go get drunk and go out on a lamppost and start chanting USA because somebody got shot in the head. Anybody seems really weird to just a weird notion.

That doesn't check, it doesn't square with my humanity, not because I like Osama bin Laden or think he's a good guy. Just because I don't feel like, winning a war is different than shooting a single person in the fucking face. They're very different things. Of course, I'm anti-war, so whatever.

But I think it's similar to that. You can feel a sense of peace, I think, when your enemy is no longer a threat to you, or you feel like an issue is resolved. But you're right. Like a celebratory thrill from violence is a weird thing. There is a parallel to that with the McCain thing where people are on Twitter going like, fuck you McCain, rest in hell, right?

Like, or whatever, you have burned in hell. Like with the Osambin Laden thing, which is like, it's just like, it's a weird notion to celebrate any person's death. I think that, I mean, like they're both, both of those men dying, and I mean, this reminds me of, that's the whole digression I'm not going to go into. I was going to start talking about Reagan, but never mind. Both of those guys dying, but it is more than just their actual physical depth.

It's also like a political moment. So you should be expected to have, if you're a politically minded person, like some kind of a political reaction to it. But again, like you're saying, like both you're saying, I mean, it's having that visceral, what was it like having a visceral thrill about violence, I think, is what you said. Like that that, yeah, that is maybe not a normal thing for, I mean, unfortunately, I think that is actually

like a normal thing for a lot of people. But it shouldn't be a normal thing. I mean, I agree, sure. Yeah. It should not be like, if we go to war, and then you hear like the Iraq war, and you hear like, we've taken back that or whatever, you know, my first thought is a bunch of people just died. That's my first thought.

I'm not saying I'm a better person for thinking that, but I for whatever reason, I think that's the health the our way to feel like this Immediate like oh, well, I don't want I would prefer that like listen, there's I believe there are justifiable There is there are moments where violence is justified like that I think that's we have to accept that as human beings right and even coordinated violence can be justified right like I think You know had we had better coordinated violence as Hitler justified, right? Like, I think, you know, had we had better coordinated violence as Hitler was rising to power,

I hate to keep talking about Hitler, but I've been listening to this book all about the rise of Hitler's, you know, the Berlin pre, pre, you know, full on world war and, you know, it's called in the Garden of Beasts, which is a pretty amazing book and I recommend it to everybody and anybody.

But anyhow, it's just like had there been coordinated violence from like America earlier, we may not maybe would not have lost so many lives because Hitler was actually a monster. But like, you know, so I'm not like anti-war in like to in this like to, anti-war in totality, but in general, to celebrate it is a weird notion. To celebrate it ending actually makes a lot of sense to me. But to celebrate the act of it is unusual. And maybe to a degree, the killing of Sam and Bin Laden for a lot of people was a catharsis.

Like this thing that happened now has come to some conclusion. Yeah, that's what I mean. You can get a piece for it. And yet, and yet. Okay, I lost family members now and I'm been lot and for a lot of people was a catharsis. Like this thing that happened now has come to some conclusion. Yeah, that's what I mean. You can get a piece for me. And yet, and yet, I lost family members and I'm at peace. And yet the reality is it didn't conclude anything. Yeah, I mean, it's death penalty stuff we're gonna end to. But we do have to wrap.

We do have to wrap. Oh, and sorry, that was a rambulant. Any final thoughts? We've been around the world here. We've been everywhere. We're now in Hitler and terrorism territory. Anything that we did didn't discuss that you felt we should have talked about.

No, no, I mean, this was great. I feel like any comment that I make after thinking about what we've been talking about is just going to send us into another digression, so Probably better to just well that good good man Digressions are the lifeblood of this podcast. So on the one hand, I'm you know, I'm curious But then I think the for the for the sake of all of our days for our time that we should not do any more digressions anyhow Thank you so much for doing this. It's great.

You got to come back. I mean, obviously I expect you'll be writing some more stuff for us. I don't know if you have anything in the pipeline right now. All right, nothing at the moment, but. But, but. So no. And one quick thing before we go, we've been doing this thing

at the end of every show, which is like, you know, because like typically the conversation trends towards a existential crisis. It's like dark. I mean, a lot of the show we were talking about is pretty dark. So we've been doing this thing where it's like stuff that you like, that you like, like things on the internet

that you like or something that you, like a hobby that you've taken up recently or like something. So, so I'm gonna Ryan can start. You don't have to participate in this. If you, if there's literally nothing you can think of that you're like currently into or like loving or you can think of that you're currently into or loving or you saw a tweet that you thought was hilarious or whatever, but a Ryan will start,

then I'll do one and then if you want, you feel free to join. But it's just something, basically at the end of a very, you know, at the end of a, literally we're talking about Hitler in the killing of a zombie in Laudanade. We're gonna just make it lighthearted and happy at the end of this.

All right, Ryan, go ahead. So I talked about this on Ryan Show this weekend, which you can watch at twitch.tv slash Ryan Show Plug. Ryan Show, Ryan Show on twitch.tv. Yeah, correct. I talked about this a little bit and the audio worked this week, so it was great. But my fiance, we had to cancel a big vacation

that he got me for my birthday because a family member needed the money for an emergency, which we were happy to help, but it was very sad because we never really been on a vacation. So he planned like a staycation in New York, and we live in not a nice part of New York, we stayed in a really nice part of New York, and we went to the movies, and we went to the park, and we did all this stuff that we'd never do. And I would really encourage anybody out there who is struggling, even if you don't have a ton of money, stay with a friend, just get out of your little circuit that you live in, the little like, I take the train here, I come back, I come to this outline office five times a week,

then I go home and I go to the same eight websites and I check Twitter, put that stuff away, spend 24 hours doing something, see a movie, you wouldn't have seen, take the time to read a book, you wouldn't have read, stay to friends. It gave me perspective and it changed my mood. If only for this week, it was a different week and we need that stuff more than ever

and it cost us not that much money. So I would encourage you to do something different this week. Wow. And see Crazy Rich Asians, which is part of what we did in our staycation. Wow. The best movie I've ever seen. Really? It's so good. Is it that good? It was just refreshing to watch something that was like Romantic comedy well done. Everybody operating on all cylinders.

Great soundtrack. We have a great piece on the side about the Jeremy Gordon Road. I recommend you read it. I did. Okay, good. Okay, I have three things, I think. Two of them are music. One of them is like a Twitter thing. So, okay, and these are really, these are really dumb. One is a friend of mine was like, I feel really stupid. I use Spotify and a friend of mine was like, I'm listening to something radio. I'm like, what's that? And it's like, oh, there's this thing where like, if you listen to a song or an album or whatever, you can be like, listen to the radio station for this.

And then it's like music that is like like minded. I've never used the function. I mean, maybe I've used it like, yeah, I've made me use it by accident. Yeah, no, it's the best. I never really knew what it was for. And I'm constantly on Spotify. I'm like, I've already listened to everything. Like I got it.

And the discovery thing, discover or whatever. It's like, okay, but it's not. So I started using that feature more, and it's not bad. It's good at matching mood. Yeah, like, here's what I discovered. If you listen to the Troys of On Dance dance, what is this song called Dance to This? Dance to This. If you listen to the Dance to This station,

it most of them are clunkers. Whatever they think, whatever genre, dance to this, they spot how I think it's in. Spotify it's not, doesn't really know how to parse chill pop. It's like clunkers. Okay, but so there's that. Second, I have been, every so often,

I'll like get obsessively into listening to a song over and over again. Recently it was Ghost Town by Adam Lambert, which I'm sure I've talked about, which I still will listen to whenever, where it's usually like a bad pop song. I've been listening to the song, so Katy Perry's last record was kind of a dud.

There's a song called Hey, Hey, Hey on it, which is written by Sia and Max Martin, of course. It's really good. It's stupid. The lyrics are really stupid. And sometimes it's written by C.M. And, it's really good. It's stupid, the lyrics are really stupid and sometimes by CNN. But the song is really good. And I think it's like kind of a sleeper

from that record that it's just the wrong time. Yeah, okay, that's my, so my third thing is there's just this tweet, which is like kind of a, I mean Twitter's bad for the most part, but there's a tweet of like on this, from the set of John Wick 3. Right, yeah.

So I mean, Twitter like, so he tweeted like John Wick three is already the best movie ever made. It's a picture of a gunner Reeves in the old John Wick riding a horse next to a guy. Oh, he's on his side. Like holding a gun, holding a gun.

It looks like also, it looks like maybe he's been, and there's like wires attached to to Kenner Reeves, so maybe he's like, dropped on the horse. He's like leapt on the horse or something. He's about to shoot a guy out of a motorcycle.

There's just so much going on. Welcome to the WICCAS. Yeah. Eddie, those are my those amazing. All right, Ellen, I don't know if this is giving you a chance to really think about things that you're going to be like that you're loving. Yeah. Yeah.

Here's your opportunity. Well, I live in rural, lesser mass chezets. So it's pretty cool that the weather has started to die down a little bit, means that I can go out walking with my dog a lot more, which is something that I really like to do. It clears my mind. Where's your dog's name?

Freya. Yep, she's a good girl. What kind of dog is she's a She's a mutt my wife my wife got her before before we met she's like Hound pit mix like she like she has like the dog dog bird kind of thing going on a little bit. She really pretty Dog bird kind of thing going on a little bit. It's really pretty All right, I will you have to send to pick maybe we'll put a picture in the I will die have millions of picks of her definitely And then the other thing is that I'm actually on Cape Cod at the moment and I've actually been able to go swimming

Three days in a row, which has never happened to me out here before so definitely been enjoying that I Love swimming. I love being in the water. There's been a really shitty August It's been raining so there's been very few swimming. Yeah, right right like like these three days It was amazing like these three days like the only three days of like heat we were out here, so Yeah, I was traveling for all of the hot days so far So I've not had any chance to do anything that was fine, but all right, cool. That's great. Oh, and thank you so much for doing this.

This was an extremely good conversation and, you know, we'll have a good time. Yeah, that's what show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best. Though I understand that your family is just logged on. And it's become part of the resistance. Thank you.