Tomorrow - 199: Doomscrolling

Episode Date: July 26, 2020

In Josh's absence, this week Ryan and Input Editor Craig Wilson discuss Elon Musk's latest bad idea, the Microsoft's ambitious plan to turn Xbox into Netflix, and the growing darkness within us all. Also, there's drag queens, because of course that's what Ryan's up to when Josh isn't around. Thanks for everything, Julie Newmar. Also you, Tony. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to tomorrow, I'm not Joshua Chipelke. Today on the podcast we discussed universal basic income, Julie Neumar and Charlize Theran's middle-aged bad-assness. I don't want to waste one minute. Let's get right into it. So obviously things are different this week. Josh is not feeling good. He doesn't have COVID, don't worry. But he does have a variety of illnesses. It seems like every part of his body

has conspired against him this week. And he's seen a doctor, he'll be on the men till he'll be back next week for show 200, which how are we there already? But this week, in lieu of our hostmaster general, we have Craig Wilson, who is here with us. Craig is an editor at Input, along with myself, and he's here to bring a little variety to the show. It's great to be here, Ryan. Thanks. I've got my top hat on my cane, ready. I'm ready for this variety show. I've got my top hat on my cane ready. I'm ready for the variety show.

Yeah, so I hope you've learned all of the steps. I have, oh yeah, I have, I mean, I've had a lot of free time. I don't know about you. So Craig, you speaking of your apartment have just moved to this country from South Africa. Yeah, well, you know, it's actually it's 10 months today. Happy 10 month, US adversary to me. It's been a pretty, a pretty crazy 10 months. I mean, what a time. I guess the only thing I can say though is at least I didn't move here six months ago or five months ago. See, the thing is that it's like, I say you just moved here because in New York terms, usually people have to be here for 10 years before they're New Yorkers. But you being here for COVID means that like you're already like it's sort of like anyone

that was in New York during 9-11 is just a New Yorker for life. You're here for this. In the eye of the storm or whatever, like, bless you are a tried and true pizza rat, like the rest. Well, you know, we joke that now all I need is maybe a hurricane and perhaps to get mugged. And then, you know, I can take like most of the badges off in the first year. Yeah. I mean, you've been here for riots. You've been here for pandemic. Yeah, I mean, you've been here for riots. You've been here for pandemic. Yeah, hurricanes are interesting in New York

because don't let anybody with a small business hear this. They're a little bit fun because it's like, because it's like you get to stay home and like it's raining all day and that's kind of exciting and like the power's in and out and it's kind of like camping. It's out. You can play video games all day and like not feel bad about it and lounger on the couch and eat things and it's like a snow day I guess for grown-ups.

Yes, and and and the thing is if you own a home, I'm sure it's tough when the tree falls and ruins your roof, but I live in an apartment building and it's a little bit I am a I'm from New York originally and I have been through so many hurricanes I don't even I can't even remember all the names and so I get to say that but yeah you'll get to you'll get one don't worry but you when you say I mean aren't you from Long Island dry and live with us I am from Long Island yeah okay it's technically the New York metro area, but it also earns me a special badge because Long Island, it's hard to, I guess, I don't know how much time you've spent there if at any at all. I can point to it on a map, I know which

general direction to go in, but yeah, that's about it. It's like the alligator head like it's like New York's dump truck ass or whatever Long Island is weird because it's so diff every Every 20 minutes that you drive. It's a completely different place like the Hamptons are on the same like Island the small island with completely run down, falling apart small towns, we are in the same island as a peach farm, where as far as you're I can see,

is just like American bounty. It's on the same island as Brooklyn. Like it's all on this small place. And so I didn't know growing up that like everywhere wasn't like that like I First off, I didn't know I was on an island, but I also didn't know that like I thought the whole world like that every 20 minutes was different So I would go I when I eventually went to like the Midwest. I was just like Stunt I was like you could just keep going first off You could just go in any direction for a very long time before you see the water. But also, it's the same.

Yeah, like 10 hours. Yeah, we have a there's a part of the Africa that's desert called the Kuru and you can drive through the Kuru for like a third of a day and it's just kind of unchanging, you know, flats of the horizon. It's a bit like New Mexico, I guess, also that you feel if you break down, you might die. Which is refreshing. Well, that was the whole thing when I lived in Australia, we would go out to the bush and you'd go out to see the stars or whatever. And the whole thing was like, you got to load your car with stuff because if it breaks

down and you don't have cell service, you can die. And everything around you, all the animals and plants are going to try to kill you. So, yeah. Well, it's a problem is I have, in terms of this week's news, I have the ignominious honor of sharing a home country with Elon Musk. We should probably discuss what Elon Musk is up to.

Oh, I have this. Well, where we start, right? I mean, they've been like three or four travesties this week. We've got pronouns, don't matter. We've got deals with Bolivia. Yeah, yeah. Well, where do you want to start? Well, I'll start with obviously the easiest things to knock out.

Or he said that pronouns, he doesn't, the pronouns are stupid or whatever, which I think was intentionally worded to Be a dog whistle so that like he can say like if people freak out on him and he feels quote unquote canceled He can then say like oh, I meant that it's stupid that we even have to use them You know what I mean? Yeah, well that we have to even think about them. They just shouldn't matter Yeah, yeah, he can pivot it And so that was annoying, but you know like like not, he's, you know, vaguely red-pilly, so that's not like shocking.

But then he just fully admitted, like, that he was down to Koo wherever, especially Bolivia, if meant he got what he wanted. Which is, I mean, you don't normally get war criminals just like like owning it. You don't even lay a little template, yeah. Or at least like Dick Cheney at least would be like, we had to. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. The war in Iraq was justified. They were WMDs. We had a reason.

You know, even if the reason is a lie, there's still a reason. Yeah, he's just like, I don't know, fuck you. Like what? Yeah. So those are the easy ones to knock out. is still a reason. Yeah, he's just like, I don't know, fuck you. Like what? So those are the easy ones to knock out. I think the more complicated thing to talk about is his tweets about stimulus packages and universal basic income for Americans.

Well, I think I might be quoting you here. I think it's so to me that it's really easy to say that Americans don't need money when you're one of the five richest or where it falls in that pecking order. Yeah, I mean, things really easy. I've said to someone about this earlier this week and I think people say,

oh, I don't understand how Elon Musk can be such an asshole. Or I don't understand how Jeff Bezos can voluntarily do all these things. I go, well, you well, it's a bit like if you've ever spent some time driving a fast car. You start out and you think I'm never going to be one of those BMW drivers who doesn't indicate and who rides up people's ass and who gives people in slow cars a hard time. And then a week or two go by and next thing you know, you are that guy. You're in the fast plane, flicking your lights,

getting upset with people. And I feel like being a billionaire is just the natural extension of this, that except that it's magnified and it's sort of exponentially worse, which is that you've spent, however long it is, it's taken you to get there, maybe a few years, maybe a few decades, having people tell you

that your shit doesn't stink. And then having people tell you that all of your ideas are valuable, and having people tell you that, you know, what you say has real power because kind of money and power are now sort of indistinguishable. And so in the same way, I think that JK Rowlings would not get away working at her publisher by being a rampant turf, because they would just go, you know, you can't represent us and you're a junior, so you're fired. Because she is the star, she can say what she likes. And because Elon Musk is this star, he, you know, has this pass to do

things that in any normal circumstance, if he was a junior at SpaceX, and he was tweeting some of these views and it brought scorn upon SpaceX, his ass would just get fired. Yeah, I think JK Rowling is a really good example of that because I think she always thought of herself as someone who had done the quote unquote work. Like she was an erasist, she wasn't discriminatory,

she loved everybody, she had compassion, she's left wing. And that may have been the things that she was an erasist, she wasn't discriminatory, she loved everybody, she had compassion, she's left wing. And that may have been the things that she was doing and she may have had left wing positions for the 90s or for her upbringing, but when you become so wealthy and beloved and told that, you know, Trump is Voldemort and so you are the architect behind people's understanding of fascism, then you don't get confronted with your ideas anymore. Like if you're a turf, nobody turns around and yells at you

and then you don't really have to think about it. You can just be like, you're wrong because that million other people will come up to you and tell you you're right. And so you can be like, that other person was wrong because I'm being told I was right as opposed to like having to stew within and live within the consequences of your words

and your choices and your views. And I think it's the same thing for Elon Musk and him talking about universal basic income, it's like, well, this just all theoretical to you. So like you're playing the Sims right now, but the rest of us are all facing a homelessness crisis. So many people I know are about to truly be homeless and not and they don't have parents homes to go back to. And they don't have, so this

isn't theoretical. And they are worried about their kids eating. And they are worried about what, like, how does one protect oneself from a pandemic when you don't have a place to keep clean even. Absolutely. And once you fall off those rungs of the ladder, like the battle to get back upon them, particularly in a country like this, that is still so obsessed with the myth of meritocracy, and that somehow you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

And well, we just see repeatedly that that's like demonstrably false. And when you fall through the cracks, it's really hard to get back up from it. And I think it's really easy for Elon Musk to say, well, theoretically, I'm not sure that stimulus is the best as like an economic project in the long term. And it's like a thought experiment. And you go, but this is just so far removed from reality. And this is the guess what I find so frustrating.

I think what a lot of people find so frustrating about him so much of the time is that there is just this disconnect. And it comes from that ability to do whatever you want without consequence. You know, without repercussions. I thought about the hearings that were meant to happen ability to do whatever you want without consequence. You know, without repercussions, or about the hearings that were meant to happen, or start on Monday, with Facebook and Amazon

and all of the big tech firms, and the massive sort of antitrust undertaking. And part of the reason that they've gotten away with this and part of the reason we've gotten to this state for so long is that there are just, there are just no repercussions for bad behavior, you know, Facebook, Facebook's standard, man, as we'll tattoo it on Mark Zuckerberg's face is, you know, I'm sorry, we'll do better.

But yeah, you know, a fine, like the five, whatever, the five billion dollar fine, the share price went up the next day. It went up because that as a share of revenue is such a drop in the ocean. It needed another zero at least. It should have been a $50 billion fine. It should have been a quarter, a quarter's worth of profit or, you know, God, revenues fine because without any, without any recourse, without any actual genuine punitive measures that hurt, it's ridiculous to think that people are going to change their behavior. Yeah, and I think we should clarify, Elon Musk was tweeting that he is anti-stimulus, which

I think in his mind means giving businesses money to keep payroll going. But he was pro universal basic income, which I think in his mind, he thinks that the businesses that weren't prepared for this should be punished, which I understand. Like it's the belief that if a bank fails, we shouldn't bail them out. We should teach a lesson to other banks that when you fail, you fail and that

you don't get a magic undo button on the backs of the American people because the American people don't get that magic undo button. And I understand that. What I don't like is that again, this is the theoretical to him. And a lot of the businesses that took stimulus money and that will need it again, are underpinnings of keeping society functioning. Like we can't have whole farm systems go under. We can't have every small business within the city of New York closed

and every restaurant in Barclose. Like that will devastate people, not just in a moral way, or we'll all have to start over and it will be so difficult for a few months. Like it's devastating because these people don't know where they will eat and it will take so long to kick everything back up. And frankly, when all of the small businesses can't weather this and the large businesses can, the large businesses will swoop in.

And we won't have small business anymore. We'll have like monopolies and ever growing corporations. And just swooping and buy the mole on the cheap, buy them for dimes on the dollar. And you'll have an entire generation sort of ruined unable to get back on the economic ladder at all. Yeah. I mean, and frankly, UBI is a great idea, like the pilot programs in Canada work,

and I totally see why people want it. But in a country that doesn't have social safety nets, and that is so anti-socialism, and so anti-having public works, or having any sort of public education education or single-payer health care, when you don't have the necessities covered, and then you start cutting people a check as a replacement for that, and you start saying to people, well, you're getting $1,000 a month, so why should the state provide food for your kids? When you Trojan horse in,

you know, I'm giving everybody $1,000. So then you can turn around and cut social programs. You can go around and say, you know, why would we have single payer health care? You can buy it with the money we gave you and then we'll have a thriving private economy. Then if you don't raise those payments to match inflation and you don't raise those payments similar to the way that we don't raise minimum wage, it means that those private companies which are charging you for necessities can ask for whatever they want.

I mean, you can go to the emergency room with a gunshot wound, you're gonna need to get treatment one way or the other and then they can turn around and say, that's $250,000, please. That's absolutely. And they do. And so in a country where those things aren't covered

and instead you're getting $1,000 a month, that $1,000 doesn't mean anything. It doesn't like absolutely, yeah, this is what pains me about the 600 a week too. This notion of cutting this, you like, but do you know how expensive it is to live in America? A thousand dollars doesn't cut it. Like, if you want to pay health care and school fees and, you know, I mean, just the basics that we consider that should be the measure, the measure of the self-appointed,

greatest country on earth, that anyone should have to worry about these things. And I think about the like emotional toll that worrying about working two jobs and living hand to mouth, like what this does to people's ability to do other things. You know, I think people who think that UBI is some, firstly, there's a problem with equating socialism

with communism, which happens a lot, because if you paint it as turning red, then you can get people against it, which is ludicrous, but also a thousand bucks a month for a lot of people is not going to be enough for them to sit on their asses and do nothing, right? But a thousand bucks a month might be enough to quit that second awful job that you hate and spend some time setting up an Etsy store or doing something bigger. With your kids, raising your kids, which will then honestly

is good for everybody. If parents can raise their kids and spend more time with them, they will have better mental health, they will have be educated better, they will be on the right track essentially. And I know it ends up sounding conservative to say, you know, we need to focus on the home and stuff. But in fact, we do. Mothers should not be working for jobs. They should be home with their kids. Fathers should not be out doing back breaking labor when they can be home with their daughters and their sons. And they're various otherly gendered children. Like we when you create a system where everybody's getting the same health care and everybody's getting the same schools, the rich are

incentivized to improve that standard of care because they're gonna have to use the same ones you do. That's why like, you know, our roads stay paved because the rich don't want them to be unpaved. It's the reason why like the fire department outside of places that like have gotten so absurd as to have, you know, private fire departments. The fire department has to function because like if my house is on fire,

it doesn't matter who I am or what it means or who if I've worked hard enough for your approval. Like it will burn down the whole town. And so it is in everybody's benefit if we provide healthcare and we provide like food for kids and not just hand out money and say like spend it on whatever you want. It's not the government's job to make you happy or to give you things. It is the government's job to like protect the people, serve the people to shape society in the way we want it to be shaped, which is like empathetic and compassionate. And so

when someone like Elon Musk comes around, it like the reason he wants everything to be determined by money and the reason why he wants like all government power to be a transaction where citizens are consumers and the government is just another of business is because like he has a lot of money and it would give him more power. Like I don't understand like in the US I truly think people would sell their vote if that meant they could get like a cash payout and because we're desperate. But like we your vote is the only thing you have that is equal to what Elon Musk has and was equal to what the rich have. And it's the only way we can set standards for society that like this is what bare minimums should be in certain categories of the things we think are the most important.

I don't know, I'm like, ranting at this point, but it really bothers me because I'm sick of seeing people who don't pay taxes and have such incredible amounts of privilege make calls for a life that they've never lived and a struggle that they've never had. Absolutely. Well, this is the problem. This intergenerational vision is kind of, it's both what's needed on one hand and one of the problems on the other.

So, you know, we have the intergenerational, and the wealthy who don't need to worry about these things. But then we also have people in power who are any concerned about their particular term, you know, and with the current administration, you see this, which is that Trump doesn't need to care what the world looks like in 20 or 30 years because San Kevin's he'll be dead.

Yeah, one way or another. But. I mean, that's the whole climate change thing, right? Like it's like, I don't give a shit. And it's the same people who are bootstrappy who don't want an inheritance tax and don't want anyone who is wealthy, is children to face the consequences of their actions.

Which is like, I thought the whole thing was meritocracy. Yeah, yeah, well indeed indeed, indeed, but this is this is what we really, right? This is the story that's told so we can get away with heinous things. It's so frustrating, but you know, so about that about that technique. Well, I think it's tough because, you know, on this show, we talk about this stuff, but it's like like we're in such a dark times, and tech companies have accrued so much outsized power.

Every tech story is like now at this point, a health and politics story. Sure, sure. Well, we built these beasts that we are ill-equipped to legislate because the tech companies move quickly and the legislation moves slowly, and the tech companies move quickly and the legislation moves slowly and the tech companies try things, you know, ask for forgiveness, not permission

and the regulators try and regulate by example and so they try and extrapolate from past instances but you know, those two when you try and put them together just don't align, you know, I'm thinking this week about the upcoming hearings and I think about the stupid questions that Mark Zuckerberg was asked that just sort of suggested how little

a lot of people fully understood how Facebook works. And this is part of the problem is I think that there needs to be a greater savviness to the people who actually tasked with legislating these things, because otherwise, it's kind of impossible. How are they meant to make sense of it? But how are we to expect them to come up

with practical rules that actually account for the kinds of problems that rampant capitalism and huge companies that never need to actually make money have created. Well, speaking of rampant capitalism, not to change topics too drastically, but there was an Xbox event this week, and I promise you I will connect these dots.

Oh, I'm ready, I'm ready. Microsoft showed off a bunch of new games that they're launching for their new console, the Xbox Series X. And it was so weird because in contrast to PlayStation who like showed off these big budget projects that you will buy individually. If you like them and then play on your console, Microsoft's whole thing this week was basically setting the stage for not selling their console, but selling.

Right selling a game pass as a service. Yeah, like game pass as the console and basically they're pitching themselves as the Netflix of games as opposed to pitching you a new gadget. But you know what part of the problem with that is that it felt like every title felt like an Xbox game, you know, in the sense that every place with the PlayStation, they just felt like there was a lot more variety between the studios. There were the ideas just sort of stretched a little broader, the look, the feel, the aesthetics of the games were a little more disparate. Whereas the Xbox games

all felt like Xbox games. And in a way, I guess that felt a little apple arcade-y. They just seem to be this great unifying thread through them, which I'm not, I mean, I'm not pretty sure I want. Well, there's a couple of things to that, which is like, one, I get that they, that the head, they're not gonna win the head to head competition with Sony, because just at this point, like in franchises, exclusives,

just the sheer amount of IP that Sony wields, they're not gonna beat them, or they're never gonna like best them. They might not going to beat them or they're never going to like best them. They might at best, they're going to be 50, 50. But I think also, when you incentivize, you create a model like Netflix. There's a reason why Netflix shows are palpably different than the shows you got on network TV. They're palpably different than the shows you get on network TV. And they're palpably different than the shows you get on HBO,

even though their models are now sort of similar. Because Netflix's thing is it doesn't need to be the best show on television for you to tune in. It doesn't need to be the blockbuster event. They just need to have something good enough for you to watch on Friday night. They just need something good enough so you won't delete the service.

And Microsoft pitching itself in this way, the way that they're pitching it is, Halo is not this year's Halo. Halo infinite is this decades Halo and they're just going to keep updating it and adding to it. And similarly with Forza, they just dropped the number from the name

because Forza is Forza. And when you subscribe to Game Pass, you will get Forza. And you will call it Forza forever. Yeah, basically, and I don't think that that's necessarily bad, it's just different, and I don't know if it's what I personally as a consumer want, because there is value to getting hyped up, and there is value to trying new things, and there is value to essentially trying new things and there is value to essentially making the company earn it every time. Not that matters for you, the Ryan, because you're just going to buy it all anyway, right?

I mean true, but the completeness in you demands it. But what it does matter because what other consumers pick will shape what I get. Oh sure, sure. And how these things develop in time. I got to mean, I'm not a, I'm not a first person shooter player. But I, yeah, I was, I still wasn't convinced by the Halo trailer. I mean, it's like, I get what they're going for, which is like, you know, you, like things are difficult and, and, and life is hard. And you shouldn't have to pay 60 or 70 now or 120 dollars for an experience, get home,

plug it in, download it, and then be like, oh, I don't like this. Like that, they're right. That sucks. That experience sucks. I have a backlog of games that I played for two hours and said I don't really like this. But you're also then saying that you don't have to earn it every time. Like you don't have to get me in the theater and get my button to see you are just TV. And so at that point, like you've lowered what you're like. You've raised the bar for your worst, but you've also lowered the bar for your best.

And I don't want to consume games in that way, I guess. I mean, for me, the way I like to consume games the most is individual big stories that like really immerse me and I don't want to pick anything else up to like finish it. I like that. I like thinking of games as like novels. Right, right. Whereas I like things mostly like formers that I can dip in and out of for

indeterminate, often quite brief periods and then forget about for two months and come back. Well, that's, you've got the Nintendo has you cornered because that is most gamers. That's what most people want now. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But also for the bigger games there are some bigger games that I would love to spend more time with, but I want to log back in and then I want to get like to keep it with the Netflix and allergy. I want to get a previously on Zelda Breath of the Wild. And I want to get up to it like you are busy looking for Corak seeds in this area of the map You also spoke to this fairy two months ago who told you to do X that is what I would really like because that is my

That is my biggest problem. They always try they always try to give you that in the form of some diary like that's like too many O's D I don't want to read that shit. I don't read that. I mean exactly. I yeah No, I can't I caught yeah, I just want to read that. I mean, exactly. Yeah, I mean, no, I can't. I can't. Yeah, I just want to highlight thrill. I just want to highlight it's real. Well, that's why I kind of miss and I wish that it had taken off more. It was the episodic games where you would like biases and pass and you'd get two hours of gameplay at a time. I loved that because I could play for two hours and then

I would have fun. But then I would be like forced to take a little break. But then you'd, when you went back in, they'd give you a little like previously on and it would pick up from whatever you were Like I am remain a huge fan of telltale and like narratively driven things like that And not everything has to be that but I wish that that hadn't failed so spectacularly Well, I think trying again now is this one of the Xbox titles we? Isn't that sort of what they're doing with tell me why? Yeah, they're doing some of those and Definitely like there are games like Life is Strange, which is from that same publisher. Yeah, that's exactly what prompted it That's what I was thinking of Life is Strange. Yeah

And and there there are some of those that exist But what's kind of sucked is that and no no knock, I mean, I feel bad, but like, because people probably poured five years into these projects, the things that we saw from the Microsoft Showcase, I wasn't like, you know, I have to play, there was nothing that really, like, grabbed me where I was like, fable, I definitely want to pick up,

but there was nothing that I would, like, I feel like I walked away from Sony being like, these are three things I absolutely need to experience. And with Microsoft, I was like, I mean, I wouldn't mind playing any of these, but nothing like grabbed my mind and imagination. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I feel, I mean, I just want to play Stray, frankly, on the PS5. I just want to play Stray. I just want to be a cat for the backpack. That sounds great.

Oh my God. It looks so good. This is it. This is it. There was a clear title where I was like, I have to, I shouldn't confess this, but I'm going to. I have never owned a PlayStation or an Xbox, but man, do I want to play Stray? The primary problem is I don't have a television, I have a projector. And I know you can connect games consoles to protect those. It's an ideal. But it's not ideal. And also, it means that I can kind of only do things off-dark. You know, I can really do things at night because the blinds in my living room are not good enough to block things out during the day.

And that's kind of, you know, it's like when you go to the store and you don't buy snacks, and sure, if you like the same night, you're like, God damn it. I really want snacks. But you've tricked yourself into a position where it's more difficult. That's how I feel about having a projector. By not having a television, it makes it more hard to watch television, which is just me trying to fool myself into better behavior. Yeah, I kind of get that because our living room right now, like we have a giant window that is directly across from the TV.

It's like the one source of natural light in our apartment. And it makes it impossible to really enjoy watching TV during the day. And it is good that we've cut that out because at least I've cut, I, since we moved here, haven't really binge to any TV, at least not in the sense of like all day, all night, just want to get through the season.

Yeah, sure. I've definitely done like three or four episodes back to back, but like I, you know, I, it feels good to have that, have that like interfere with it a little bit. And I actually have been playing a lot less video games since the pandemic hit, which you think I'd be playing more video games, but. I would indeed think that you're quite right. Because it's always there.

I feel like, you know, I'm like, oh, well, I feel like I just did that. And like, maybe I should read a book. Maybe I should try to be productive in some way. And so I'm like self-conscious about it. Have you read, tell me, how many books have you read? Have you read any books? Yo, yeah, I've read like four or five books.

Okay, okay, that is impressive because I have put four or five books on my website table and I have looked at two of them. I've even read the first chapter of one of them and I have not, I have not got much further than that. I mean listen, I love input mag dot com, but it does feel like I'm working a lot more than I was pre-core. Oh, you want to go there? Oh, absolutely.

I absolutely, absolutely. I feel like part of the problem with lockdown generally is boundaries. It's difficult in a lot of ways. I didn't necessarily think that I would miss commuting so much. You know, responding to those open-ended Twitter questions this week, one of them was office, no office, somewhere in between. And definitely somewhere in between. I miss going to a physical space.

I miss interacting with other humans I don't live with. I kind of miss the commute. I miss seeing strange people on the subway, but also the commute was a time to catch up on things that I didn't need, cell phone reception for. So, you know, whether that was podcasts or my pocket article backlog or whatever. I'm

just going out for lunch, even if I wasn't going to buy lunch, because I would still sometimes just go out to walk around the neighborhood for 25 minutes and like, came my head. And the problem is now that stuff is impossible because you roll out of bed and you log on and then you're on and then maybe maybe you take 10 or 20 minutes to have some lunch. But otherwise, you know, it's just really hard to switch. It's really hard to switch off. I found that that has been incredibly taxing and I realized at the same time I'm incredibly, incredibly grateful while there has been a bloodbath in media. I'm incredibly grateful to have a job and I'm incredibly grateful to have a reason to log on every day.

But it is difficult. It's difficult not having that literal physical and then also mental separation between work life and home life. And I can't imagine how hard this is for people. I guess probably like you who are in, who where that space is even less well defined, where you're working and you're working in relaxing space may be the same single circle Venn diagram.

Yeah, I mean, I was saying to someone this week that like the main way, and I had to stop doing this, like I had to, I was differentiating between work and play, it was like I would take an edible. Like it was literally like it became like it became like a ritual. I would take an edible and then I was like whatever I was doing could be fun as opposed to work. But it's like you're like you're you're clocking in and clocking out. You're like right down the hatch. All right, we are off shift. But it's like it's even harder, listen, I had a hard time with the fact that my job was also the thing that I liked to do as a hobby.

Like I like tech and I like video games and stuff as a hobby. And then when that becomes your job, you know, what's the line? Like should I be playing the most recent release so that I can be informed and report on it and possibly like recommended to people? Or should I just play the thing I want to play when I'm home? And also the same thing now that we're living in a complete, you know, fucking nightmare swirl of developing horrors, it's hard because when the news is your job, both you don't get to experience the news on a personal level where you get to like digest it for yourself as opposed to for your audience. You also like you can't take a break from doom scrolling like our job is, I mean you're

a news editor. Yeah. Like your job is to doom. And so like, you know, I was taught, whenever I talk to my family, they're like, you know, you know, you just get so worked up. And like, you know, you can't try to save everything. And it's like, but it is my job to like, know everything that's going on and have an understanding of like all the issues and how they intersect with each other.

And. Absolutely. Yeah, so much about a stand-up of it. And this is it. It's like, the dangers of a very online life is that there was a time when it was like Oh Elon Musk hits something stupid and now it's like oh Elon Musk hits something stupid

Yeah, and I'm gonna lose an hour of my life because I have to write about it Yeah, but it's not just an hour of my life because I wasn't gonna think about it and you know, it's gonna yeah The stuff is gonna infiltrate my's going to, yeah, the stuff is going to infiltrate my dreams. And yeah, yeah, yeah. Like again, we're very lucky to be getting paychecks, but it's still, it is still a struggle and it is, you know, it's hard because we have to do more work than ever in a situation like this. And we don't get as much free time. But also the work itself can't be what

it can't be as good and it can't be what we wanted it to be when we launched to the site. Like, I mean, it's the same thing. So when the outline launched, we were fully just ready to stop talking about Donald Trump. Like, we were fully ready for the outline to launch and then to like put a critical eye towards the whole world. And when the outline launched, Donald Trump got elected president. And then it was hard to not always focus on it because it was the most horrifying thing happening. And you know, we launched input with this idea of just like, we want to be able to go off on adventures that we're excited to go off on and bring a piece of

it back for the audience. And we were excited to like do on and bring a piece of it back for the audience. And we were excited to like do crazy, like my original title was special projects because we were going to do big projects playing within the world of tech. And you know, that's not an option anymore. Like we'd have a responsibility that's bigger than that. And we don't really have the resources to do that kind of stuff. And so it's, you know, in some ways we're working harder than ever, but it's not like we have a ton. I mean, we do have a great website, and I'm not mean to diminish anybody's work, but it's not like we have the thing to show for it that we thought we would. You know what I mean?

Absolutely. And the priorities have had to necessarily and inescapably change. And as the absent but not forgotten, Josh would say, I guess one of the great thoughts and dreams and hopes of a Trump loss come November would just be not have to talk about Trump all the time. would just be not have to talk about Trump. Oh my God. All the time. I think people think that we, not just in this podcast, but also like, I think people think in my regular life

that I like obsessing over Trump. It's like, no, I don't like it. It would be as if you said to me like, God, you love obsessing over being shot in the head. It's like, no, I was shot in the head. Yeah, well, like, I really like doom scrolling. people. I really like seeing moms in yellow t-shirts getting tear gas in Portland That's really how I get my jolly's on the weekend, you know, yeah I mean, it's hard and we Josh and I try so hard to inject

Especially in the podcast a little of diversity and a little levity but it's hard because it's like I mean it's hard to make jokes on the dark as timeline it is yeah it is it is incredibly hard yeah I mean yeah I'm to change tech briefly but because things are getting dark again I have been watching the show dark and I gotta tell you I've just given up because after season two it's just veered off in a direction that I am not like I'm not willing to commit to particularly in a time when what I need is like distraction you know and levity and lightness but I also think that I think part of the Netflix and the Xbox problem is that I now have no loyalty so So if I, you know, I've paid for Netflix,

if I watch two seasons of dark, and then I go, I'm done, I'm done. You have pole vaulted over an entire swimming pool full of sharks. I am out of here. Like, my belief cannot be any further suspended. And I just stop. I will watch 22 episodes of something and then go,

not fuck you, you are taking liberties, I can't anymore. And this is what I worry about the games as well, is this just like when you have spent $70 or $100 on a game, it's like buying a CD or I guess an LP when you were a kid and being like, well, I spent my savings on this. I am gonna listen to Tori Emas until I like her. I used to read magazines cover to cover because they cost me $5.

And I was like a teenager. And I wanted to get my money sort of. And this is, so obviously, I mean, we don't talk about this at all. We talk about it at work a little bit, but I'm super into retro video games. I think like, game preservation is very important to me. And whenever someone gets into it with me,

like they're like, hey, I bought one of those little consoles you were talking about, or like, hey, I just, you know, I just got into nostalgia gaming. I'm super into the Nintendo 64. They always make the mistake of getting like an ever drive or getting an emulator console and downloading every single ROM Right, right. I'm like definitely should you definitely the game preservationist in me tells you you definitely should

Keep a copy of that somewhere. I see you you know in case you don't have access to it You'll always have access to it But don't have all of them with you all pick one game you want to play and sit down and play it for better or worse It was like when you would go to a friend's house and they would give you 200 gigs of music and you would go, well no, and then I just don't touch any of it. And then eventually it became, give me the three albums or the five albums that have like moved you in the last three months because yeah, yeah, otherwise it's debilitatingly overwhelming. The tourney of joy is too much.

It's the cheesecake factory. It's the cheesecake factory problem. Is that the cheesecake factory has everything you could ever want. They're all okay. They're all pretty good. And there's no way to pick. It's like, do you want, what do you want to eat?

I don't know, a burger or a salad or pizza or tacos or a stir fry. Okay, I want a burger. Okay, well, we have 100 burgers. It's like, how am I supposed to? And then you're just sitting there eating, like, whatever appetizers you've settled on, trying to decide on your entree, it just sucks.

But, you know, again, good problems to have. Yeah. I mean, I used to have these problems in supermarkets, and please report that I've mostly gotten over. Oh my God. I go to supermarkets and be like, oh, which kind of, which of the seven kinds of raw, uncrushed sea salt really speaks to me as a person, you know,

which one is like New York supermarkets are must be overwhelming in the sense that like I do know that Americans have like a million brands of cereal or we have like, you know, a million brands of like white bread or whatever There's like a million options for things that like like I was so much easier. It is so much easier whenever I'm abroad because they there are Less options and they're usually higher quality Well, it's easier. Just don't buy bread don't buy bread in supermarkets. Yeah, well, yeah our bread is cake But it is also the thing of like,

New York is actually not that bad. When I'm an Indiana visiting family, they have a Walmart. Let me, there is a Walmart. Right, the food deserts, I'm familiar with this phenomenon. But it is as big as an airplane hanger and they sell cars in it.

And they also have like fabricated homes and guns. So cars. Cars in the In the In the In the whole house. They have a bank in there, a big Donuts. It's all within the Walmart. And so you go there and you could be the, it is, it's as if the whole mall was empty into a junk drawer and kind of mixed up. You could be there all day. And you're like, where are, for example, I need a red ball. They're like, well, we've got four red ball section.

And you're like, what? It is, it's, it's, it's both overwhelming, but it's also a little bit depressing because you're like, what a waste. It's sort of like we were, I wrote a piece about the Quibi subreddit this week. And Josh, every time we talked about Quibi, Josh was like, he just can't stop marveling at, what could you do for the world with $1.8 billion? Like, what could you build?

You would dent could you make in Balaria with what? And we were like, wait, what if you can turn the phone sideways and the show continues? What if Darren Chris were in five minute clips where he pretends to be a pilot? Like, what? What are you going to get? Yeah, yeah, we're going to do TV, but we're going to cut it into seven minute slices.

Look, I mean, I feel I've got it. I don't, I don't feel, I don't don't feel for the two the two top heads the two big names The two people who work because they inch you know, they think it's fun not because they need to but I do fail for some of the Rists of team grubby who were like I'm sorry though But you know it's a new company And have an option and have a job. We have all been part of a project where you did say to yourself halfway through, oh, this is going to be bad. Yeah, like, you've got to look as good on my resume as I'd hoped.

You're like, I got to finish it. Even if you were in high school and you're doing like a science fair project, you just step back and go like, oh, no. And I think those Quibi people had to be like looking at the dailies and seeing like the app builds and being like, oh no. We are screwed and not in the fun way. And it's, you know, how do you turn that shipper? I mean, Quibi is, and this is going to sound so mean, but Quibi is kind of the Titanic.

We're like, they can't get off of it, right? Like they have such an investment, and they've shot. Yeah, they're so convinced that they were too big to fail, that they are unstoppable, that everything aligned, they had the money, the big names, the right stars, the writing talent, plus they got to attract people by saying, you'll get to keep your IP, which frankly, I mean, frankly, that stuff was inspired.

Where you're like, well, how do you woo people away from the other channel? You give creators the thing that they really want and don't generally get off it anywhere. And even that, that's not enough. I mean, the core concept is so flawed. I mean, the idea that instead of that people would, that you as Hollywood would be able to come up with short clips

that would be more fascinating and interesting and varied and speak to more people than TikTok. Then TikTok. The sheer hubris that you would be able to create an app with Chrissy T. Yen. That would be more fascinating to the world than all of YouTube is so insane to me. Like, there's a reason why, like, you know, it's really hard to pull off a prestige series. Like, it's really hard to pull off a superhero movie. So there's a reason why a whole industry exists to pull off

this giant thing because nobody could do it in their home. But when we can in our home, do Chrissy's court. There's no reason you need to spend $40 million creating Chrissy's court. It's so bad. It's such a bad thing. I think it's interesting too because they argued that like this was going to be the commuter entertainment and then commuter entertainment fell away, but I don't think that's why it's failed, right? That's been the argument, oh, you know, Jeffrey Katzenberg is like, oh, it's the coronavirus. There was no coronavirus. This wouldn't have happened. I'm sure that's not what Jeffrey Katzenberg sounds like, but that's not being the case.

I think that doesn't matter, even if you were commuting. It just turns out to be a thing that people don't want. not being the case. I think that doesn't matter even if you were commuting. It's just, it's just, it's just turns out to be a thing that people don't want. It's the juicerro of the media world. Well, it answered people don't want a movie cut into five minute clips. They want like a silly podcast that they can pause and restart and that they don't need to put their full attention on. Where they want like TikTok, which is just so bachelored in saying that you can't look away from it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And which is also where I mean, people are doing really like TikTok, which is just so bachelored in seeing that you can't look away from it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And which is also where I mean, people are doing really like amazing the creative stuff with short form. And Kirby hasn't done that. It's done long form that it's made

into, it's like squeezed into a format that nobody wants. It's like, it's like growing a watermelon in a box, except that people actually do want square water, square watermelons. It's like growing a watermelon in a box, except that people actually do one square watermelon. It's like a terrible example. Well, what are you enjoying to keep busy? Do you have anything nice? Absolutely. I have the perfect thing and it is so schlocky and cheesy and ridiculous. But last night I watched the old guard with Charlize Turan, I think they so called they say Theran, I think you say Theran in America. Anyway, Charlize, proudly, proudly so that we're gonna have her in Trevinoa. Anyway, Charlize, what prompted it was a tweet where someone was

enthusing about how Charlize has gotten to, I just used the first name. I'm sorry, I can't help myself. I love that she's reached the point where she can just be an on-screen badass, you know She's a proper a-lister she can do whatever sort of movies she wants. Yeah, she can just she can just pick movies She can just be like I wouldn't gonna be an action hero for 20 years and it's great I mean it is I will tell you none of the plot for those people who, it feels like Client to Watch it. I haven't watched a straight up, like, action movie, which is basically what it is, like an action sci-fi.

I haven't watched a movie like that in ages. And it is cheesy. And every, you know, some of the dialogue is laughably bad. It's just so formulaic. But you get to watch Charlize and a bunch of other, like, strong female leads and a bunch of, like, ridiculous cheesy characters beat each other senseless

while a completely ridiculous narrative unravels and it was superb, escapist fun. So the old god on Netflix, that's my current vote for the week. That sounds wonderful. I have not watched it yet. It is in my queue, but it's one of those things I'm waiting for a weekend. So maybe tonight will be a perfect example. I'm because at the end of my horrible, like, we, are the horrible long slog through the news all day,

the last thing I need is to go on an adventure. Well, my problem is there are a bunch of things I've never watched, like that I know to be amazing, but I have missed the period. You know, like when you're a student and you think, well, I'm going to watch these difficult art house movies because they're, they're like part of a self-education. Well, I am past that because I have possibly four or five hours a week to watch that kind of stuff. And so I want distraction.

You know, I want to be, what I cannot, like I cannot watch in this list. I have never watched in this list. I suspect I will never watch in this list. I am sure that it's an amazing movie. I'm sure it is wonderful and deeply moving, but I do not need to put my own snot on a throw pillow on a Saturday night. The real world is difficult enough.

I will tell you this. I don't care for Shindles List. The actual list itself, I like. The film. Okay, the film. Not so much. Right, right. It's 16. It's 18. It's 18. the actualist itself I like the film okay the film right right uh I take ET and jaws spillberg's finest well it's funny that you just said that because I have two nice things and one of which is actually related which

is that my husband is sort of like a cultural alien he grew up in a very Catholic household. And so he had no pop culture, no cable TV, no pop music, nothing. He had a couple of Britney Spears CDs that he got from his family. You said, sorry, you said Catholic, right? Because all I'm hearing is Onish. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, honestly, meet his parents and there, those aren't that different. He had nothing besides a couple of Britney Spears CDs, an old computer that his dad helped him like get an N64 emulator running on. And like I think he had PBS. And so that was like his pop culture. And so when I talk to him about like Nickelodeon or like, you know, the Disney Channel or like movie hit movies,

like he had never seen Jurassic Park until I bought tickets, like premiere tickets for Jurassic World. And I said, oh, have you ever seen the sequels to Jurassic Park? And he was like, Jurassic Park now? I haven't seen Jurassic Park.

And I was like, what? What? What's this happens so often? I have been in this man for 12 years. I will literally just be sitting somewhere and I will say something like, what, oh, so I said to him the other day, we're sitting

and I go, God, doesn't that remind you of that scene in the wedding singer? And he was like, I've never seen the wedding singer. And I was like, you know, it makes sense that you haven't and it's not like the biggest movie ever. But it's one of those things we all take for granted that like most people have seen the wedding singer or you know an Adam Sandler Drew Barrymore movie, you know what I mean? Right, in which case you've kind of seen any of them if you just watch what you're familiar with the full

Yeah, yeah, so we put on I put on You know regularly I put on classic movies with him and I took him through, I mean, classic meaning like I took him through every Batman movie, but then I've also shown him like Casablanca. And then we sat down and we watched like, you know, the source family documentary like all the things that for me are essential viewing, but it still isn't a dent in like what an entire childhood's worth of blockbuster trips would teach you and so he We put on that movie isn't it romantic, which was terrible

sorry, Rebel Wilson and I Realized halfway through the movie that John did not know what this was parodying because John has seen no rom-coms So I was like you've never seen 13 going on 30. He was like, no, I was like, you've never seen pretty woman. He was like, no, I was like, you've never seen like the wedding singer was one of them. I'm trying to think what were the other ones that he's just never seen at what, like,

I think he's seen the Nora F-Run movies because I made him because I'm like a huge fan of hers. But he's never seen any other like, like nodding hill. He's never seen any. He's gonna be great fun for you because you get to you get to watch them again Well, then you get to watch them with the excitement of someone who hasn't seen them Which is a whole nother layer of joy when you get to see someone experience them for the first time Except of course when it's something that you're deeply invested in and they watch it and you're like, you're like watching them to see how they react. Yeah. This is the moment where they meant to be truly moved and they are not.

Well, I will say I have gotten because we've done this so much, he's become a little bit inoculated to the like I'm watching you watch the movie thing and I've gotten to the point where my expectations for him are just that he should like it. Like I just get only get upset if he like doesn't like the video. Yeah, he's like, well, you know, that was, it was a bit shit. I just, yeah, I just need a big like, I had a fine time looking at that and I'm like, perfect, great, moving on. Yeah, but he never seemed like too long, food and thanks for everything Julie knew. York. To Lee New Ma, yeah. A classic film, but he's a huge fan of drag.

And I'm like, Hey, do you see a headwagon in the angry inch? He's never seen, headwagon, he's never seen for Stella. Oh, my God. That's what we need. It's a cock in a frock on a rock. I mean, yeah, yeah. Well, this is, I mean, I'm just a little jealous now, frankly,

that you get to have these experiences with your spouse. I mean, it's fun, and it's also fun to like, recommend to music that he's like, oh, Alanis, more sad. And I'm like, God, you're in for such a good time. But it is also tough because he does not like the spice girls, like he does not get it. And I'm like, are you fucking,

are you an idiot? I'm like, they're the greatest funnest thing. You know what, give him time though, because I, for a long time, I loved the spy skills, but I also loathed Navanna, and I loathed a bunch of other things because I was a teenager in the 90s. And so I had to be contrarian in some sense.

And so Navanna, I was contrarian because they were just too cool. It was just like two mainstream. And the spy skills, I was contrarian because they were just too cool. It was just like two mainstream. And the spice girls, I was like, I was too old. You know, that was the thing for 13-year-old girls when I was, you know, 19 or 20. But some time passes. And similarly, with our Lord and Savior, Brittany Spears, for a long time, I was like, Brittany Spears, it was because I was 15 or 16, probably the same age as Brittany Spears, come to think of it,

when Hit Me Baby one more time came out. And I was just like, oh, this is awful. I want to talk about smashing pumpkins and sound garden and trend resner. And yeah, this is it. And now I'm like, my God, what a performer. What a performer. I mean, she's just amazing. And now I'm like, my God, what a performer. What a performer. I mean, you know, she's just amazing.

And we've treated her so badly. There's time for all of this to come around is what I'm saying. I think that, you know, if you give John a long enough, you just, the problem is he's so late to the game that you've kind of got to give him the 20 years the rest of us have had to realize the artistic merit of these fates.

And then maybe he'll come around. Yeah, at a certain point, oops, I did it again, hits a little different. Absolutely. But for me, my second nice thing, it actually ties into that is that this week was the finale of RuPaul's Drag Race, All Stars, five. RuPaul's Drag Race now runs year to year,

and there's multiple seasons airing, like premiering at the same time. Like right now we have Rupal Strag Race. We had Rupal Strag Race All Stars. I mean Rupal Strag Race Canada that were almost completely overlap to each other, along with Rupal celebrity Drag Race. And then there's Rupal Strag Race UK.

And then premiering in the fall will be Rupal Strag Race Las Vegas. I don't want to derail you, but when is he doing a fracking show? It's fracking ridiculous. But so we had the finale of All Stars and it was funny because we've had some touch-and-go seasons of late and it was really a great season and the Queen that ended up winning was well-deserved and very talented.

And I forget how much that show can really impact me as like a queer person, as a creative. It's like, it really, you know, as RuPaul is a fracking evil demon, but the show itself is made by such wonderful beautiful queer people and queer people of color and women and it is It's just stunning and that the level of talent you that those girls need to have in order to win or even compete I mean the girl who leaves first can sing dance. So is beautiful is funny

quadruple or quintuple threat. Yeah, you have to be good at everything to get in the door. And so all stars is a bunch of people who then went on to be like celebrities and refine their craft and then they get to come back with something to prove. And so those seasons are just so good and they're so emotional. And so by the end of it, I was so in love with the three finalists and I had such a good time with the finale. But last season of All Stars ended in a tie, which if you've seen the movie Two Wong

Foo, famously the opening scene is RuPaul in a Confederate flag gown as a character named Rachel Tensions, who crowns the winner of the local drag competition and the winner is there's a tie and So when that happened on an all-star season the two queens came back to like end their reign for the year and pass the crown Along and they were dressed as the characters from two Wang Fu who won their tie and it was just a beautiful moment Because just a shift kids shift kiss moment, yeah Yeah, John had just seen that movie for the first time and so he got the reference and it was just like a nice, like we've been stuck inside for so long but things are starting to like congeal

and we're in like this, like we had a nice moment amongst the quarantine of it all and those are increasingly rare. So that was my nice thing. If you are anyone who has never seen the television show RuPaul's Drag Race and it sounds like something that you would never want to watch. I implore you to push beyond what you imagine it to be and watch one season because you will be hooked and obsessed. Similar to Buffy the Vampire Slayer,

the name sounds ridiculous, but it is one of the greatest works of art of the 90s. So I agree. I agree. And she maybe is like a perfect book and to bring us back to where we started, is that one of the things that I also talked to friends and family about, that I appreciate the most about living in somewhere like New York, pandemic notwithstanding, is that even in the sort of neighborhood I live in, even with the people around me, I feel like I can go out in the sort of neighborhood I live in, even with the people around me,

I feel like I can go out in the world, I could go out and made up in a pair of short shorts with some insane nails and a, you know, a Technicolor wig. And because it's New York, no one is going to pass an eyelid. Yeah, and that is so important, not to care. to pass an eyelid. Yeah, exactly. Because it is so important not to care, but also that it's like, well, whatever babe, you know, you do you. And I guess that is certainly one of the great

and different things that I have not lived anywhere, which is quite so enthusiastic about its acceptance of all sorts of colors and flavors. which is quite so enthusiastic about its acceptance of all sorts of colors and flavors. It's really refreshing to be like, you can absolutely let your freak flag fly. And if anything, the problem is, I wonder, if you're desperately looking for attention, you might feel a little bit sad

because it's so hard to actually get it. Yeah, if anything, you in that outfit would be probably the most normal person in a 10 mile rating. Oh God, people would just be like, oh my God, look at him. Oh, he's shame, he's trying so hard. Yeah. And it's so clearly not him at all.

God, he thinks he looks good, babe. Come here. Oh, come here, yeah. We have to, we'll have a makeover, he thinks he looks good. Bebe, come here. Yeah, oh, come here. Yeah. Oh, we will have a makeover. You'll be much better. You know, it doesn't need to be so obvious. Well, Craig, thank you for coming on the show and filling in for Josh. It has been a joy. Right. It's a delight speaking to you. And yeah, let's do it all again one of these days soon. Yeah, Josh, get sick again. No shame No shame Josh get better. Bye Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best. In fact, I've heard that your family is letting their freak flag fly and New York can't get enough of them.