Tomorrow - 216: Science Vs. Wendy Zukerman

Episode Date: November 22, 2020

On this episode of Tomorrow, Josh and Ryan discuss dadcore, CyberPunk 2077 merch, and the Ratatouille musical. They're also extremely thrilled to welcome Wendy Zukerman, the charismatic host of the extremely popular Science Vs. podcast, as the first guest to be interviewed on the show in several decades. Episode 216, the podcast of all our dreams. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to Tomorrow, I'm your host Josh Wich Polky. Today on the podcast we discuss Ratatouille, Dadcore, and Science. I don't want to waste one minute. Let's get right into it. Just a quick note. We have a guest on today's tomorrow, the podcaster Wendy Zuckerman, who hosts a podcast called Science Versus. That'll be coming up a little bit later in the episode, but first we're going to talk

a little bit about the news. Hello. We're better than ever, except Ryan, you were saying that you've been throwing up for 24 hours straight. I'm not feeling my best, but you know what? We're living in a post-Trump America. I could be like, well, we have almost, almost post- post Trump. He's having a big press conference right now, actually, I think. The fact, let me just check Twitter because anyhow, you guys will hear this.

This already be news. Yeah, you guys all already know that he's doing a violent coup or something. Well, so he's doing, we'll see you. He's doing he's deploying the military to the streets of major cities in America. Twitter's down, so that's not a good sign. Good. Like it might be actually down. Yeah, let me try a new tab. Yeah, it won't load for me. Oh no.

He's like, I'm taking out Twitter. That's problematic. How am I gonna get my information? Guess I'm gonna have to go on parlor now. I guess that's it. I have no choice. I've got a log on to, I'm sorry, to go on parlor now. I guess that's it. I have no choice. I've got a log on. I'm sorry, not parlor, parlay.

I like the fact. I think it's incredible that the people who created parlor who are a bunch of like right-wing chuds, were like people will definitely know this is a French word, and to pronounce it in a French way. Not like we did a Silicon Valley misbelling of the word parlor, which often is like a place where people gather.

At any rate, so Trump's doing a coup or something. But yeah, so you're not feeling well, but you don't care because it's where Post Trump almost, and I'm just catching everybody up. If you missed the first 30 seconds of this podcast. And no, it's great. We're having a great freezing cold week in New York and there's a lot of stuff going on and and and I'm and I think the entirety of our Trump conversation is ending right now Well, what else do you want to talk about? You want to talk about cyberpunk phone?

I do want to talk about the cyberpunk phone. So so so so Ray got cyberpunk phone? I do want to talk about the cyberpunk phone. So Ray got, this is a China exclusive, the company OnePlus made a cyberpunk 2077 themed phone that comes in this like cool box with all these like pins and like other stuff. And it's like a custom, like totally custom version of the OnePlus 8T. It looks different.

It has all the cyberpunk branding on it. It has interfaces all done up in like cyberpunk 2077 style. It has a boot sequence that is very cyberpunky. Looks like something from a game like cyberpunk 2077. I mean, the hilarity of course is, you know, the game doesn't exist. And as far as I'm concerned, we'll never exist. As you know, my new theory about Cyberpunk 2077 is that it's never going to come out.

And I stand by that. But the phone is out. And I like, I want the phone. I mean, Ray, I feel like, Ray already liked this phone a lot and said it was really good. And now that there's, and I don't even go in for these like themed things, but I like it when it's, I like, I like, like Fallout did this with whatever, I think it was Fallout 4, they did the,

they did the arm thing, what's it called? The, I can't think of the name of it, but they had a thing where you could put like a phone in it. The Pip Boy, and you could wear it on your arm, and it was like from the world of the game. And I like this because it your arm and it was like from the world of The game and I like this because it kind of seems like it's from the world of the game less like an artifact No, but it's like not like a thing like promote. I mean, yes Of course promoting the game, but it also feels like it could be a thing that is in the game, which I like And it's like people put a lot of effort into it. Yes, just a plug

Yes, but then I started shopping for it, and I was like, well, you can't really get it. And then I got led down a rabbit hole of these cyberpunk cases for iPhones that have LEDs in them. And now I have like $180 worth of cases in a cart somewhere, like trying to figure out which one I want to get. They all are completely ridiculous and heinous,

but I'm, I don't, but I think the whole cyberpunk thing is ridiculous also, I should say, but it's like you know Tumblr It's like cyberpunk tumblr basically which I'm into and I'm into that you know Coming forth into the real world and us being saturated in it, but I was thinking the other day um On this topic not to go on not to not to ramble here, but I was thinking how much the world we live in is really the kind of bleak cyberpunk future that has been predicted. I know people have talked about this and it's been written about, and of course it's been

kind of, it's been a longstanding trope of trope that we are going to, you know, have this dystopic Sort of miserable cyberpunk existence and that all of the stuff like Blade Runner that has pre-saged it is coming to fruition And I think that's true in some ways and I mean we got some things really really right and we we got some things really wrong But I do think You know the more I look around the world, the more I see what's happening. The pandemic obviously is a part of it, but I think just the way that we live now, it does, like if you showed people this, you know, 20 years ago, I think if you showed them what the world is like now, 20 years ago,

it is 100% like a dystopia science fiction movie. And it's, you know, I don't know if we should congratulate all the people who predicted this, or if we should be depressed because we couldn't see more of it coming, you know. But I just so much of what I've read in science fiction and enjoyed or seen in science fiction has become such a dark Reality and there's something thrilling about it, you know like presumably You know, whenever there's something hard to sort of tragic happening. There's also something a little bit thrilling And I do think that there's a part of our problem as humans is that we get thrilled by tragedy

You know, and then we get thrilled by the drama of it um tragedy, you know, and then we get thrilled by the drama of it. But there is something thrilling about realizing it, but also something deeply depressing. And I wonder if, and I, you know, this is all, by the way, thoughts that are based on our conversation about the Cyberpunk 2077, Android device. You know, I wonder if we can ever pull up out of it, or if it's just going to be just a further descent into this kind of darkness that we've been invading. We have to be willing to not have, we have to be willing to like push against convenience or like quote unquote innovation for the sake of innovation because a lot of the times

that stuff is only made possible by like fissistic corporate overlords who control every aspect of the process and we need to like have some values that are like, you know, it's important that one company doesn't own all of retail or even 30%. Like that's a very important thing to have as a nation. And we have to like stick to that rather than be like, let Amazon build robots

to bring you stuff. Like that's not gonna lead anyone good. I get it, it's easier than shipping than be like, what? Amazon build robots to bring you stuff. Like that's not going to lead anyone. I get it. It's easier than shipping. But like, I haven't seen anybody go in the direction of harder, you know, or more complicated. I mean, I don't. But I also feel myself, don't you feel yourself as part of it when you like get in you order your two day delivery and it comes, it takes like three days to get there and you're like, what the fuck, how could this be? How could this be? I've started to push again some of the stuff and push again to make doing things that are more difficult rather than like. Then you're a better man than most, but by... I think so. It's hard. It's hard to think so. Well, it's interesting. I mean,

it is interesting though. I mean, we, you know, some things are new and convenient and that's fine. I mean, some of them, I mean, Amazon is a great example, but, you know, it's like it is I mean, no time ever could we point to in history and say and be able to like more clearly point out how valuable something is in the case of deliveries. I mean, it's massively important for so many people that we're able to get things delivered because it's just really not safe, especially right now as coronavirus is, you know, just ravaging the entire country. Yes, and no, though. I think there is a certain amount that is a luxury and is excess that we don't need.

Like, people got around, not having Amazon for millennia. Like, we don't necessarily need every Chinese do hikki to be delivered to our door within 48 hours. No, I agree, but you've got to, then you start, it's kind of like your splitting hairs, but people do need, there are things they need that are necessities that Amazon is delivering and that other people are delivering obviously groceries.

Of course, if we got down to brass tax, we go like, yeah, I don't need to order socks on Amazon. Like I have enough socks or whatever. You know, yes, there are luxury levels of this. There are also, you know, there are also things like, I need, you know, I'm at home, I'm working from home now, I can't go into the office, I need this thing to work from home. Amazon can get it to me tomorrow.

That is a necessity for a lot of people, right? It's like, I need to be able to do this thing and I don't have a way to go to a store and get that thing right now. There's a lot of that happening, right? My kids need this thing for at home learning. My kids need this thing for it to be distracted You know, my kids need this thing for it to be distracted and have something to do because they can't go to a normal school day.

I mean, those are real, I mean, I certainly feel like I've, you know, we got a swing for Zelda that we put on a tree here because it's like, it's not that great to go to parks and they're fine for the most part, but if they're really crowded and there's a lot of kids on the swing, he's like, you kind of don't want to like throw the kid in there. And so it's like things like

that, that's real. But yes, I agree. You know, my cyberpunk phone case, I don't need to have delivered overnight. But there's also the thing of like, yes, all this innovation does serve a purpose. Like there are problems that are actually problems that are being solved 100%. But then there's stuff like, and we, I don't want to talk extensively about this, but there's stuff like fleets Which is just a copy of Instagram stories. Oh my god. We snapchat stories, which is a copy of and we're at the point now We're the only reason that fleets exist is because they serve Twitter

Advertisers better and that's really good. Do they have ads? I haven't I not yet But when they do roll out ads, they're full screen ads that take over the thing and that you have to interact with to get to the more content Which makes them so much better than tweets you just scroll by but people well to tweet ads are very bad I mean you've got it meant oh Most ads are bad Can exist without Necessitating an entire advertising It actually can't it actually't, it actually can't.

It actually can't because nobody would pay for Twitter. And it has to do with other worlds where there was a regulation on this stuff and it was a dollar to use social media sites. I feel like people would pay the dollar a week or whatever. I, none of these websites would, Facebook would not exist if you had to pay for it, okay? It, maybe now if they were like,

if tomorrow they were like, that doesn't sound so bad to me. No, I agree with you. It doesn't sound so bad to me either. But I'm saying that the only model that has worked for these businesses to become big for a meaningful, I understand, I am a group of advertising bubbles

about to burst. I mean, maybe and maybe not. I mean, but the reality is it's working for Facebook. It's working for a lot of publishers. You know, we happen to participate in our publication and happens to participate in that. And every, I think it is different with our website or with publications because we curate like advertising

experiences that go with what our content is. And I think it's just different than algorithmically generated. But Instagram ads are very effective. I mean, Instagram ads are very good. Most people would probably tell you, and I would actually say, I hate to say this, but I will say it.

I find that Instagram serves me ads that are often, I'm like, oh, this is something I'm interested in, and I do like will follow through and explore that thing. Like, it is better at knowing or having an idea of what I might wanna see in the Instagram experience than a lot of other places. Like, I don't get served a lot of ads anywhere else where I'm like, yes, that makes sense.

Instagram, however, does get it right. Twitter presumably thinks that it could get it right. Facebook probably goes, we get it right a lot because people click on these ads and buy stuff. The, but the reality is, I just wish there was a place to have conversations that wasn't a mall. Well, there are, but they're, but they're, but they're not social networks. They're conversations with, you know, they're, I don't know, Reddit, like group chats.

I mean, okay, sorry, we're far afield on the topic, but the Cyberpunk 2077 phone. But no, but like, but what I, but I guess to your point, like the fleets thing is interesting and we should talk about it maybe at length, but I mean, it's not that interesting. It's like, yes, fleets are essentially Instagram stories put into Twitter. Those same things have been put into Facebook.

They're in some of them. And they're like from Snapchat. They're originally from Snapchat. Yeah, I mean, I do think, and frankly, we have a product called card stories that we do, storytelling in that's a similar experience. I do think there is something that is very, that makes a lot of sense about that kind of mobile first presentation.

I don't think when you think about what Twitter does best, which is frankly very little at this point, but what Twitter does best is not like a visual, full screen, mobile storytelling experience. It's also not what their users do best, right? Like I feel like our card stories on the site are made by editors whose job it is to make good card stories. I don't think most people make very good Instagram stories or who are that.

Well, but people make stories that their friends or whoever follows them appreciate. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, I think that makes sense on some level. I think that makes sense on a kind of fundamental sort of one to one or one to a few level. And frankly, influencers have had a lot of success. And TikTok is a great example of how that kind of, you know, single view, you know, full screen, mobile experience can be very impactful. I just think, you know, it doesn't work in the context of Twitter, it doesn't work in the context of Facebook. I mean, they may think, and maybe it's true that it does,

I don't know. Eventually, people are either going to, you know, they're going to find place where they use it or they don't use it. I've found very little use in general on Instagram for the stories function, right? But then again, I'm not like a really heavy Instagram user. I mean, I'm sort of, there's people for whom most of the internet is Instagram. Yeah, I mean, I get that. I guess I don't, I mean, my plan in life is to tune out of social media increasingly.

That's my, so I'm the wrong audience for this, you know what I mean? Like, like I'm the audience that's like how do I get, and I actually think that this will be, you're going to see a significant change in a post Trump world that people are going to want to see news less. They're going to want to see information less. They're going to want to beat more tuned out. And by the way, come 2021 when there's widespread vaccinations for coronavirus, like, you know, back half, back half of 2021. Well, I'll tell you what, people aren't gonna want to do a lot, which is sit at home and

read a newsletter or read a Twitter feed. They're gonna want to go and see people. That's why I've been saying since the beginning of this that the minute that there's a vaccine and like we get the go-all go ahead, think we're going to get a swing in the direction of like warehouse parties and book clubs and like rest erupt people. We're going to be in the goddamn street. I agree. I agree. And we're going to go we're going to find some way to get a new virus that's even worse than coronavirus with everyone. Okay, well that's not don't do that. There's a lot of reasons that you shouldn't have sex with everyone. But at any rate, so I do think like there's a change coming and I do think there's a post, no one wants to live like this.

Only people with very broken brains want to live like this. Serious, very sick people. I mean like no one's joining parlor, okay? I mean like normal people aren't going to join a new social network now. I just like parlor. I think it's such a good idea to put all the I agree. I agree. I'm like the eating several lives. I'm pro. I'm very pro parlor. I think go on

there, you know, get over there. Get horrible to be a bench a hero and whoever else, whatever, a fucking right wing losers go again on parlor and do your thing together. I think that's wonderful. Everywhere else in the world, we'll just it'll just be normal people doing normal things, talking about normal things. Yeah, you guys wanna go to KKK meetings? That's legal. You should go do it at a KKK meeting.

And if you find that to be a self-sustaining society, then I guess we'll have a conversation, but I have a feeling before long, those places where I'll separate into factions of hating the Irish. And the list was like, I mean, I mean, it'll mutate into other kinds of racism and hatred. So I think, yeah, and I think you have to also remember,

and we're very far afield from our core topic, but you have to remember that, right now Donald Trump is still president, and he still can do whatever he wants on Twitter, and people still have to pay attention to him and Republican lawmakers still have to listen to him. And Democrats still have to like counter him. But there will be a point in the near future where that doesn't, that isn't real anymore.

And like I don't really actually see, I don't know, I know the Twitter probably kind of needs Donald Trump to exist on their platform, but I'm not really sure how long he can exist given the ground rules that they've laid out for users. Like I think there will come a point where people are like, this person's obviously violating these ground rules and you've got to deal with it. And they've de-platformed a lot of people and you know who I don't hear a lot about? Milo Yananopolis or Alex Jones or like these are people I don't hear about I don't think about I don't see for the most part nine nine times out of 10 I'm there to not existed in existed before Donald Trump It existed before not like hordes of Nazis it will exist after and it will be better for it

So it will be it will be better when when people maybe their first cap will go down But like I mean when people can have a I mean cap will go down. But like, I mean, when people can have a, I mean, they will go down, but maybe they'll, maybe they'll find something else that's better than having rage, like, but maybe they'll find something else, maybe we'll find the Twitter's better for something other than replying to Donald Trump's dumb latest tweet with you lost asshole or whatever we're all doing now every time he tweets, you know?

So yeah, there's that anyhow. So yeah, the Cyberpunk 2077 phone, I really want it. And to recap, I'd really love to get the OnePlus AT Cyberpunk 2077 edition. And if somebody wants to send it to me as an early Hanukkah or Christmas present, I'm not going to stop you. And in fact, I'm going to applaud you. That's to round that completely on topic to topic out. Well in another area of our expertise, we have a piece on the site from Giovanna Osterman that's about dad shoes and dad streetwear and like the explosion in dadwear that has happened culturally. Yes. Yeah, I mean I say as a dad, of course,

you know, I'm intimately familiar with dadware and dad culture, which is, what is it? But it's a controversial, it's pandemic chic. It's an evolution of eth leisure. It's this own thing that like is having a moment where, you know, all want to be comfortable But we're still being seen on zoom or Instagram or whatever. So we have these like faded

bulky squishy comfortable shoes and sweatshirts and I mean I'm wearing it sounds like a dream I'm well, I do think there's been, I mean, I've certainly, you know, I used to wear, you know, clothes that were appropriate for work. I didn't go into working suits and stuff, but I tried to look, you know, like a normal human that was relatively presentable.

Certainly working from home, I am, I mean, I'm currently wearing a pair of Nike shoes that are, they're called the offline, the Nike offline, and they're basically like gigantic puffy slippers with like massage insoles. They have these like little like nubs on the inside. I don't remember if you got a pair of these or not, but several people on the, on the input team got them.

I wear them constantly and I love them and they're incredibly comfortable. There are shoes that I would never wear in public. And in fact, I've actually tried to, you know, only wear them in the house as much as, as possible. And, you know, I'm like, I'll go out in a, I'll go out if I have to run to the store, which I do. I'll wear sweatpants, which I never have done before. And I'm sort of, I'm pro people, I like when people get dressed up. And not like fancy, but I like when people, I like to see people, you'll be silent. I like a little effort.

I like a little effort. I don't, I'm not a fan of like, you see people in like their pajamas on the street, but you do sometimes around like where we live. You know, they're like at the bagel shop in the morning and their pajamas, like that's cool. But personally, I wouldn't, you know, but I do feel like this has been a real interesting moment

for us, but I think that, you know, the dad wear thing is associated with it, but is also in many ways its own beast, you know, because dad clothing, I mean, you know, there's like mom jeans, right, that we've talked about for a long time. There's been dad, like, for instance, in this feature, the top image is a picture of these, like Nike, these presumably very expensive Nike shoes that look like the kinds of shoes that my dad has been wearing for like 20 years or 30 years, okay?

Like these chunky, mostly white, really like, they look really comfortable, but they also look kind of insane, you know, and like he will wear them with like slacks. And I think, you know, it's a very specific kind of, it's not laziness exactly, it's just like comfort, it's just comfort over, not over anything, but it's like as much comfort as you can get out of closed-ass Delugu remotely presentable.

And so I think, you know, that makes a lot of sense for where we are in the world. I think there's also this more underlying thing about dad, the dad street wear sort of fusion, which is, there is a longing for a feeling of safety and comfort that I think a lot of people have, not everybody, but many people have associations with when they think of their fathers and they think of their life as a child. And I think there is a little bit of,

and parents are also known for opting for utility and pregnant. 100% yes, right. I mean, there's so, there's so much of like what you would consider like your parents like closing choices. Like mom jeans. Yeah, mom jeans exactly are not wearing them because they're trying to make a fashion statement. They're, they're, they're, I presumably comfortable, you know, they're comfortable. They're functional. They're durable. You know, when you bend over your ass isn't hanging out, you know, you have to get to the school yard by 8 a.m. and you know? They're comfortable, they're functional, they're durable. You know, when you bend over your ass isn't hanging out, you know? You have to get to the school yard by 8 a.m. and you know that they're gonna work.

Yeah, I mean, the, there is functional form, you know, if form over function is, has been inverted here, I think. And I think that's a good thing in a lot of ways, but I think there's also like a little bit of return to, you know, when you think about parents clothing and dads clothing, it's also just utilitarian clothing, right? It's like stuff that will just work in any situation. Stuff that is un-nephosy that you don't have to go like,

all right, what is, how is this gonna, you know, does this go with this, does that go with that? It's like, it's a pair of basic shoes, it's a pair of basic jeans, it's a sweatshirt, it's just stuff that is like easy, right? And I think that we do want right now, we want easy. Like I think that complexity is something that people are trying to avoid in every- I can't even imagine putting on like an outfit that's very complicated and like that I have to get pressed and new shoes that I have to shine- like no, I never right now-

Yeah, no one is here. Honestly it's liberating. I will say that also this, you know, it's like I have to shine. Like, no, I never write that down. Yeah, no one is here. Honestly, it's liberating. I will say also this, you know, it's like, I've been at home for nine months like, not working out real hard, you know, I put on a couple of pounds. I don't really feel like trying to get into my like jeans that just fit like nine months ago,

they just fit right? Now they kind of just don't. I'm like, yeah, I don't need to like sit in those jeans all day I can put on some fucking sweatpants and enjoy life So you know, I think there's a lot of stuff going into it. I do believe that It's interesting Jeff Ahaza who is an editor at mic.com was previously a writer at the outline wrote a piece at the outline I think we've talked about this before that I loved about how workwear was the future of fashion. And I think very much like workwear, I think dad stuff, I mean, there is certainly a relationship, right? I think historically there's a relationship

between like, quote, unquote, workwear, like overalls, you know, that like the men would wear at the factories in 1930 or whatever, and like the kind of work where the people were now is like a fashion statement. We bought these These one piece like a mechanics. What do you call them like jumpsuits? Remember we bought these for CES and they all the input team wore them at CES and they were not only were they Incredibly comfortable and I think very cool looking but they were super functional. They had a lot of pockets They were like easy to get in and out of it was like you and out of. It was like you didn't need to think about anything, but like, okay, I got shoes on, I got my jumpsuit on, I'm good to go.

And so I do think there's an interesting, I think the future of fashion is, it is this, I comfort obviously is a part of it. I do think the uncomfortable, like it's not how you feel, it's how you look kind of stuff, is will be coming to a close in some way, especially when your performance is taking place

on Instagram or Twitter or TikTok, and it's not taking place on the streets of your city. Or in your friend group, yes, there's performance there, but people can perform anywhere now, they perform everywhere to some extent. So you can look good for a picture and then move on with your life and wherever the fuck you want.

I think that there is this, the future of fashion is definitely going to be focused more on function and comfort. But also, I think fashion is going to slow down. And I think we're already starting to see it. That the industry of fashion is relatively unsustainable in the sense that You know, there are some things that are obviously hot right now like new shoes in limited quantities But they are limited quantities of shoes right like weren't they're not producing

Hundreds of thousands of these like Nike shoes like you can't even get a pair right they're very hard to come by so I do think that like scarcity and you can't even get a pair, right? They're very hard to come by. So I do think that scarcity and more longevity and clothing is the future of fashion to some extent. It's also obviously horrible for the environment to have these fast fashion stores, like H&M and the gap, or it's just like every two weeks,

there's a bunch of new clothes there that get thrown in the garbage. So I think there is something to that intersects with the dad movement, the dad fashion, dad, god, dad clothing movement. That is, that makes a lot of dad core, norm core, whatever you want to call it. That makes a lot of sense for the future. For the dystopian future, we're all going to be living in. We have another piece on the site that's really interesting by Ralph Jones, which is about YouTube rewind, which is not happening

this year. Can you explain, how do I, can you explain to the viewer the listener, whoever it is, Tony, can you explain to Tony, what YouTube rewind is? So YouTube rewind is every year, YouTube creates a short video, obviously a YouTube video that encompasses all the biggest moments from YouTube culture. So they try to bring in their biggest creators and all their moments like if there was like a lizard who did a backflip and everybody loved that lizard that lizard would be part of the video and they sort of mashed it up and they try to make it into like an entertaining end of year event. Yes. There is a Weezer song called Pork and Beans. Have you ever heard of it? I want to say it's like from 2005 or 2006 or something,

maybe even earlier. The video for Pork and Beans is all of these internet memes that were popular at the time, like that now seem like so hilarious and ridiculous to us. Like, remember the history of dance guy, like that guy and Taze On Day, remember Taze On Day, chocolate rain. Like, and in fact, very moving song chocolate rain. Yes, actually, chocolate rain is an incredible song. But people like from that era, so the video of pork and beans, like the lightsaber kid, you know,

the Star Wars kid or whatever, the karate guy who falls, knocks himself over or whatever, like they're all in that video. And it's actually kind of, it really is sort of brilliant on the part of Weezer to presage what I think, it's essentially what YouTube rewind is, which is it's like all of the stuff that everybody knows

from the year, compacted into like one, like how long was the video like five minutes or something? Yeah. Maybe it's longer than that. But it's also like all of the popular creators, right? Yes. It's usually less than 10. And you were saying people don't like it.

They're not doing it this year, not just because people don't like it, but because of COVID. But people are very relieved because they hate it so much. And the reason that they hate it so much and that they've grown to hate it more and more over the years is that like YouTube and what YouTube is has changed and it's very hard to pin down and so what you end up seeing is sort of what YouTube wishes

it only were which is the most like commercialized successful creators the most white washed memes the most friendly family adjacent personalities in different topics. So they pick someone who's going to make up and someone who's good at dancing and someone who's like funny. And then they mash them all together. And for a community that is so big and and so the point of which is that you can post anything and that you can cater to whatever niche you want and you don't need to be as commercial or mainstream as you would need to to sell a television show. It's very frustrating to see like the try guys do like a Harlem shake with Rebecca Black

while the, you know, baby shark babies in the background. People are really put off by it. And unfortunately we spoke to, we spoke to Ralph spoke to a bunch of the people at Google who put these together, and they work really hard to try to make something fun, but it's an impossible task. And it's really hard for YouTube to do what other places do. Like if MTV wants to do a year-end wrap-up, they can like hit their biggest shows with their biggest stars, and nobody feels left out.

But on YouTube, if you go there and you just listen to philosophy channels, you're not going to be in the fun Harlem Shake dance video. So then you're like, this isn't really YouTube to me. And it feels an authentic. Right. Right. It's like, like, contra points doesn't feel like a good fit. No. With like pizza rat or whatever. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I don't even know people. Pizza rad isn't really a YouTube thing, but you know, there's the idea like Logan Paul or whatever. But even the people who are huge on the platform who are ostensibly or were YouTube's most marketable personalities like Logan Paul or PewDiePie are now embroiled in such horrifying Nazi adjacent scandals.

Right. They don't include them. And yet they're a huge part of their money making machine. And so it's just, it always is gonna strike you as an authentic, it's always gonna strike you as corporate, it's always gonna strike you as, as coying. And so, I mean, maybe, I, maybe this is the year they just rewind to die, and they don't like keep doing this. I let other people do it, if you want to do it.

I don't think we need it. I don't think we need it. I don't think we need it. I think that YouTube is a platform is too diffuse to just celebrate this concept of like a YouTube creator or moment because they're not really homogenous to your point. I mean, it's not, it is as much a platform for a variety of voices as Reddit is, right?

And it's like you couldn't do a Reddit rewind because there's like a million communities on Reddit and they're all wildly different. And the only thing that unites them is that they're all different. And so the YouTube rewinds, and they use that platform, but it's like you can't celebrate the platform.

It's like, oh, we all got like, or whatever. I was like, you we can you can pause it But the YouTube rewind 2018 is now the most dislike to video on all of YouTube even more than Justin Bieber's baby video Because the only thing that really united people in 2018 was like That they founded annoying and clawing and I think you Google and YouTube would be very smart to just To start to sunset some of these instincts they had.

Call it. Yeah. YouTube into like, you know, you know, put fun time zone, put the time and money into that you're putting a rewind into coming up with an effective way to moderate Nazis and misinformation off of your platform, you know, like do that find a way to not have your Find a way to have your comments not be like an absolute automatic cesspool every time anybody posts anything You know like yeah, there are lots of things YouTube could do To help people that are not

Not a rewind. Sorry, just catching up, totally off topic here, but just catching up with what's going on. Rudy Giuliani is doing a press conference, and I think he said that Detroit was in Pennsylvania and he referred to the Philadelphia Eagles as a basketball team. So, and I'm not a sports fan, but even I know that that is very incorrect.

I bet you the people in Philadelphia are thrilled about this. Honestly, I mean, this was Trump's big move. I was already nauseous. Why did you have to bring up Rudy? Rudy, really, I mean, this is just, I'm sorry, is Trump trying to look like a fool? Is he trying to look like a fool? I can't tell because it seems like he is. That's the only conclusion I'm wondering. I mean, any normal person would go like, you know what?

This looks really, really, really bad. I've gotten beaten in like 25 different court cases. A bunch of my lawyers have quit and now Rudy Giuliani is just like talking not how does he not go like you know what? I understand that people are still paying attention, but it's not the right attention It's insane. It's nuts. There's no such thing as bad advertising or whatever. Oh my god. Oh Press is good press Well, let's move on from the Rudy Giuliani of it all because it might not go any further or I won't be able to do the show.

We have an interview today for the first time in a very long time. As promised, as promised months ago, we were gonna get back into interviews. If Trump lost, and he did. If Trump lost, I don't think that was part of it, but it's still. Anyhow, we do have a great interview.

Why don't we take a break? Okay. Get this thing underway. My guest today is Wendy Zookerman, host of the podcast Science Versus, and I'm very happy to have her here. Wendy, thank you for joining the tomorrow podcast. Thank you, thanks for having me.

I was ahead a longer intro plan where I talked about how you were in this difficult position of pitting truth and facts against the rest of the world. Anyhow, I guess I'm talking about it now, but you have a podcast, which is fantastic, and everybody should go listen to it. You can find it on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And the concept is essentially, actually, why don't you explain the concept of the podcast for the one or two listeners of tomorrow

that I've tuned in here? I'm sure. Tell them what you do on your show. Great. So, ScienceBest is the whole point of ScienceBest is to take ideas that are in the zeitgeist, things that people care about, and basically put them under the scientific microscope and ask, you know, is this thing you care about?

You know, maybe is this thing that you're scared of? Do you need to be as scared of it as you are, as people around you might be telling you you should be? Is maybe CBD, it was big sold in your corner store, is that the thing that you actually need to be taking to make your life better right now. And hopefully what we tried to do on the show is keep things light and fun and just remind people

that knowledge is fun and doesn't have to be nerdy, nerdy, nerdy, or you were silly thinking that or anything like that. It's just we all just want to live our lives and be as happy as possible and like science and facts can to help you do that. So we are here to help you with that as well. So you used, you just used CBD as an example, but but but the show it's itself, I mean, not to say you don't talk about the CBD, but you also talk about things like reparations, and, and, and, and, lab-grown meat, and like topics that are, that can be very, very, very, CBD is not that controversial, I would say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we talked about, you know, first season, I think we did abortion and gun control. that in our first season, I think we did abortion and gun control. Yeah, which are certainly in America, and I think globally, for the most part,

are very hot-button issues that have a lot of passion on many sides of those arguments. And frankly, there are a lot of those types of topics that you cover that aren't just, well, I have a very passionate opinion, but you've got stuff where you're talking about the scientific facts about things versus an entire universe of just fabrication, of misinformation and misinterpretations and lies, to be very realistic. So, what is it like? How is it, what was the, first off, what does it feel like to be doing a podcast right now that's about facts and science, where you're literally sort of telling people, this is what the expert, this is what the data, this is what the scientists tell us, and you

have an entire universe of people saying, well, we don't believe what the experts say. We don't care what science tells us. We don't think those numbers are true, and we have our own set of facts that totally refutes that. What does that feel to you to be doing the podcast in the environment where we are increasingly? Sorry, I don't mean to sound very depressing, but... Increasingly, I think it's a wall of just like total bullshit. I absolutely feel that every day.

And I think so, you know, I have this amazing team that helps me make each episode. And we've been making this show for about five years now. And it's really interesting because when I started making it back in Australia, the words fake news didn't exist. Like remember that time, it was only so fun. I long for that time. Right. I mean, and the idea of science versus was

there was so much excitement in Australia and then it crossed over into America about you know There was this it was this time where the internet people were realizing there's a lot of guff on the internet and being able to cut through that With science was really cool and exciting and fun not just for me like we love we love hearing science Yeah, we just want to know you know there was a time Just to like really put people in the time and space of when Side Smash has started our first episode was on the paleo diet Which I want a time what a time what a time which you would think but now it's just like the raw meat diet and it's a totally new diet

But actually now you're it's human flesh is the diet Anybody who doesn't agree with you politically is to be eaten. And so that was it, and people were genuinely, it felt like, you know, particularly the listeners and those who would draw onto the show, there was a genuine like, oh, paleo diet. I mean, it kind of sounds a bit silly, but at the same time, it's got this kind of interesting evolutionary angle to it, like what is going on there? And so it was just like, wow, okay, no, there's actually nothing to it. Thank you, science professors for telling me.

And then I moved the show to America and to Gimlet Media, which is now Spotify. In 2016, some other things also happened in 2016. And the world and America has shifted in the last four years. And there is an anger around facts and a politicization that we talk about a lot around facts. But throughout that, I maintain, and I know people love talking about how,

excuse me, but how fucked we all are. Like how people have these views and they're so hard and into them and they get in their bubbles on the internet and then they never, never shift. And there's definitely people like that. We all know people like that. We've all unfortunately, when those bubbles burst

for a second and then we're all like, get back in the bubble. We've all met those people. But on the boundaries, there are still so many just curious people who are like, you know, I really have heard that, let's take a portion, for example, you know, I really have heard that increases of women's risk of depression, and you know, when we get really sad afterwards, and I really just want to know, is that true or not? Is that true? Because my uncle John said it was and I don't know.

And we just did this survey. I was like, your question comes at such a lovely time. We have a survey right now, Fanny, what? Perfect. And we're asking people, you know what they like about, so science versus what they don't. And we've had quite a lot of people who have said, like their minds have been changed

from listening to the show. One mom said she vaccinated her kid after listening to our vaccination episode. People we did an episode on transgender, the science of transgender, and people said, you know, I have someone in my family, I had no idea what was going on in their life, and now I do.

Like I was confused, it felt like a weird thing that was going on and now I understand it. And so it's possible, it is possible. I have no idea how many people just switch off and go, what a shino science, that sounds wrong. But there are people who still want to know the facts. And that's the focus that got that. There are people who will tune in and listen

to and go, okay, I believe it's possible for me to learn something from people who are experts in these fields or who know better than I do. That's encouraging, but it is, but you are, I mean, you've got to have that initial curiosity, right? And I think, of course, this is true of any any time you're making an argument about anything really, but if you're using, if you're backing that argument up with facts and data and science and experts, the person on the receiving end of the information has to at least have a little bit of the possibility that they want to be or could be convinced of a narrative that is anti to what they believe or what they have heard. Totally.

Yes. Right. Yeah, they have to be coming in with curiosity. So you have to get a willingness there. And has that been, I'm curious. So you're Australia, correct? You're from Australia originally. You wouldn't know, but you don't live in Australia anymore, you do. I should say, I guess I'm live fact checking myself.

So I was actually born in America, but I oh the truth But I moved my family moved when I was six months old to Australia. Okay, now I live in New York But you're a do oh you live in New York. Yeah, you're a do so we live we actually thought you were very far away We're actually in the same city But so wait, are you, that dual citizenship? I am a dual citizenship, that's right. That's right.

Well, lucky you, that's fantastic. I think the two of you's anchor baby. Yeah, you're an anchor baby. You're one of the original anchor babies, actually. So you were born here then, but then you moved at six months, you went to Australia. And you lived there. And then now you've come back.

So, how long have you been in America? Like, how long have you been back? So, five years. Okay, so you've experienced, you've got the full American experience, then you've really. I feel like, yeah. Do you see the fall of America at first? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm, yes, yes.

So, is it in, how long have you been doing the show? It's basically I flew over to start making the show with America, so five years. And that's why they don't pull. But you were doing it, but you were doing in Australia previously. Yeah, for one season. So I made it for six months in Australia.

And they don't. And so has, and your, and your perception has the audience, has there been an increasing amount of people that are coming to the show that you're hearing from that are saying in this sea of misinformation and disinformation and just plain out like straight up lies? I'm desperate for things like this that actually tell me things. Are you getting more pushback?

Have you felt a rise in people searching for answers or a rise in people angry about the fact that you're trying to provide answers? Would you say? Or maybe it doesn't break down like that, but I'm curious. I, we don't have good data. He is the very boring question. I know. I know because the problem is you do these surveys.

I'm about to totally debunk myself. Yeah. And then what's the survey? How do we get the, you're talking about a survey. Is there a website? There is a website and I would love for anyone and I would love for anyone because this is the bias that the problem is when you ask people to fill out a survey at the end of, if you've ever done a survey,

you know, we'd love to do more. It's the super fans that fill it out. I listen to a lot of podcasts, I've had a lot of shoutouts for surveys, I have never completed a podcast survey. So it is the super fans, which is why we get these lovely notes. What we actually did the same thing. Yeah, it's a people who are like, they are like, I love that feature and you're like, wow, like less than 1% of people click on that feature on the website. And we have a thousand responses saying they love it.

That's something that doesn't check out. So we know, so I do know in the quarter of it. So we would love if if you're listening to just like, dabbled in science versus art super fans, filled it out and gave us a feedback. Yes, you could go on to our Instagram, which is science versus art, sorry, science on this go VS or Twitter or all the things that does a link.

Google science versus Instagram and you'll find it. And there's a link somewhere there to a survey and the survey will ask you what, what is the survey answer? We'll ask you things like how often do you listen, what you not like to listen to the show for? And in that, one of them is like political things, like reparations or policing.

And so we're trying to get better data to actually grapple with some of these questions that you're asking because, so I think, but to give you a little more than a fluffy annoying answer that we don't have good data. We definitely have anecdotal evidence that people are coming because they're just like genuinely curious.

And I do feel like those people never get talked about in the media because it's not that interesting. Genuinely curious person read an article, change their mind. But- because it's not that interesting. Genuinely curious person read an article, change their mind. Yeah. But like people who want to know things are not the focus of most stories about people. That's right, that's right. It's like person was curious about causes of bloating,

found it out, now knows something. Right, not a story you read in your time. Definitely not. So we know there are people coming to the show that having said that on Twitter, you know, be the greater, the great yelling wall of the universe. Oh, yes. Are our public square are the town square of the world? Exactly.

There's definitely people. I don't even know if they listen to the show who were just like not curious at all. They're not interested in the fact. You know, there's still people the other day, I tweeted out some numbers around, you know, the seasonal flu versus coronavirus because at the beginning, people were like, well, you know, the seasonal flu kills people every year. Like, I loved it when I love my favorite of obviously saying that with sarcasm is when people say these things as if Scientists at science journalists don't know them. Oh, no, right. Right. Well, by the way, it's not just at the beginning You know, they're really still there is which is why I sent out the twink cuz I was like because now coronavirus has been going for long enough And I am to be fair at the beginning of the coronavirus when we really didn't have good numbers

There was a genuine scientific question of how much more dangerous is this. And now it's been going on for long enough, and so you can actually compare it to the other seasonal flu. And lots of people are like, interesting, interesting, there's some read tweets. But then there's obviously those people who were like,

well, it wasn't as bad as the Spanish flu, though, was it? Right. Yeah. And they're like, very good. No black flag. Very good. Wow. Yeah.

I mean, you know, it's right. But in those people are, you hear from them a lot, they're angry. They're, they're, they're, they're, they don't like the facts. I mean, what are they saying to you? I mean, and I don't want to dwell on this too much, but it's like, I, to me, this is, I look at Twitter every day. Maybe you do. Maybe you don't. If you don't, I mean, what are they saying to you? I mean, and I don't want to dwell on this too much, but it's like, to me, this is, I look at Twitter every day. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, if you don't, I mean, I'm jealous.

But, you know, there's a lot, I mean, I was stunned to, I found myself in a hole the other day of Bitcoin people. Have you done a Bitcoin episode by the way? I am not, I am not. Oh my God. Oh, oh. It's always the whole time we were. I love it.

Well, what it was was a whole of Bitcoin people, you know, all the Bitcoin people are kind of aligned with libertarianism, which is sort of really kind of up for the most part, a weird offshoot of conservatism, but there's, but then there's a, but you know, it's all about personal freedom and personal responsibility. And everybody in this, in this particular hole, and it's a big hole it turns out, is like their pro cryptocurrency anti-facts about the coronavirus in the sense that like, it's all a myth you've been lied to, 99.9% recovery rate.

It's nothing to be afraid of, why are we acting like babies and trying to keep people in houses or whatever. And it was all this like, it's this weird kind of like, you could feel the offshoot of all of the Trump talking points that have kind of, that have kind of just soaked into the groundwater for certain people. And now they're like, well, I believe in a free market and I believe in personal responsibility. And I believe that, you can't believe everything.

The press tells you, you can't believe everything. The scientists tell you. And suddenly, you're like, not only do I not believe all of it, but I believe the opposite of it. And that was sort of the whole, and it was, it's scary because I think it's like, it's just scary when you're confronted with people and you must hear this all the time, who dangerously don't accept things, right? Like not accepting the science about the spread of coronavirus is dangerous to me, right? It's dangerous accept things, right? Like not accepting the science about the spread of coronavirus is dangerous to me, right?

It's dangerous to you, right? If you don't accept it, you're more likely to spread it, right? Because you're more likely to go without a mask to not do social distancing, to get together in groups, all the things that can cause the spread of it. So yeah, there's some pretty dark places that I, well, there's one that I found. But like you are you

Do you feel like do you feel that the kind of? I mean do you are you ever worried? Do you ever feel attacked by these people do they ever come for you like one in episode Because up I'm sure you're abortion episode and you've got more than one but I'm sure that you know an episode about you know sexuality or as you mentioned you've've got the science of transgender, the something about abortion. I mean, do you get like hate mailed, do you get people that are really angry? I, for the most part, no, I will say.

I mean, obviously there's that guy, every now and then they're coming on Twitter. We, actually, there are five guys. There are five guys. We were almost gonna do an episode about Twitter when we which was basically related to how many like trolls and bots there are on there and once we realize like these huge numbers of people and obviously trolls are human beings but they're human beings that aren't

I like to think just, are you ready? And so once, I remember Michelle Dang, the producer who was pitching this episode, and once she started giving these numbers of just like, the sheer numbers of either bottle trolls on Twitter, I actually deleted the app. And I was like, oh, I just cannot let myself even lose five minutes of my day to this.

And like, so I don't have the Apple my phone, but I do check it, and I do tweet every now and then about the seasonal flu. And I do get annoyed when people write stupid things. But I don't, I really make an effort not to find myself in Twitter holes and things like that, which I was doing at one point. And then I really, I really have a hard time working out. Like what's something people genuinely feel? What are they just like being annoying

and making talking points about? And so given that that's the world of Twitter, I'm just like, I'm not gonna let myself get upset about that. That's very smart. Thank you. It sounds like it actually sounds like you've well-insulated yourself against what I would, I feel like, I mean,

we talk about controversial things of this podcast. It's very free-flowing and there's a certain kind of listener I think at this point, they're like, okay, I'm here for whatever Josh is, whatever insanity Josh and Ryan are going to talk about each week, but I think if I were tackling every week, if I were saying, okay, if I were saying, okay, this week we're gonna tackle abortion. I think it would be, maybe I would also delete

the Twitter app because I think it would be intolerable to see the responses to it. I'm not saying that you can tolerate it, but I understand why you're watching it. I'm not even trying to tolerate it. I will say this is like you can interpret this data point however you like. But we started releasing our transcript because we have like fully sighted scripts, say often have more than 100 citations and stuff like that. And the transcript is just like fully citation, citation, citation, dump on citation, citation. And we started releasing that about in season three or four, let's say, so maybe like the first two or three years in.

And that was the decision I made. At first I didn't want to because I just like wasn't sure how people were going to use it or if they were going to misinterpret it. But because we did get people being like, well, where are you getting that from? And what does that mean? And I don't trust this and I shouldn't really put on that snockey voice because I do think it's fair enough

That if you have to ask questions, I guess because I do have a job I put into it and I was like, what? Yeah, listen to the disdain you have for your question. Of all the people you think you would, you would want to hear from it. The people who are actually asking questions. All right, no, so right here. So these horrible people, these naively horrible people. You did trust me. I mean, particularly at the beginning of the podcast,

in America, when you've got this like, in Australia, I'd kind of got like a little bit of a knife for myself as a science journalist that you could trust, it does good work, I can plop up, and I'm flying to America, no one knows me from far from soap all of a sudden, I'm telling them like gun control could actually work, and a lot of your ideas about abortion,

you know, uh, uh, scientifically accurate. Obviously you're gonna get people big, like where are you getting that from? And so once we started releasing the transcripts, we actually did get less of that, and when we do get it, we just send people releasing the transcripts, we actually did get less of that. And when we do get it, we just send people to the transcript immediately. So I don't need to spend hours on Twitter

responding to people or Facebook or whatever, if people have a genuine question. And the thing is, I don't even need to question whether it's genuine, because they might be like, where did you get this from? Well, they might be like, where did you get this from? And I don't need to analyze that. I can literally just be like,

he's the transcript, all the science you need, the way red, there you go. And that is often the end of the discussion because if they weren't genuine, then they're like, well, that seems like I'm working now. I don't want to do that. They're like, oh, Link. Yeah.

And then if they were, then now they have our citations and then they're done, they read themselves. Right, right. I mean, I think that makes sense. And especially when you're discussing very complex ideas and you're talking to experts, you're gonna wanna be able to show point people to the work.

Showing the work is always very good. So we've talked a lot about like things at present where you're at how you're getting your feedback. I've basically focused on the worst parts of it probably, which is the people who are, the haters who are, he with the nasley voices and annoying questions. Can we go back a little bit? How, why are you doing this?

How did this start? What is the, I mean, what, you know, like what led to science versus, there had to have been a moment. The journey, are you looking this? How did this start? What is the, I mean, what led to science versus, there had to have been a moment. The journey, are you looking for the journey? Yeah, the journey, I take me from childhood to science versus. No, but there had to have been a moment, right?

Like where this is like, I need to do this. I tell me about why this exists, why you felt you had to do it, how it started. Give me a little bit of the origin. Yeah, so I was science journalist for a long time. And so I always loved like explaining science to people and telling science stories. So that was kind of the baseline. And then what really kicked off science versus is I was asked to, so the Australian Broadcasting Corporation was moving into making podcasts for the very first time.

And they knew that I was like, good at talking about science on the radio, like scientific discoveries, and you must be all often. It's Australia. And it's just all the most, they either did something cool or we got a new one. And so I was asked like what ideas have you got? And that week, I think, Gwyneth Paltrow had suggested that women steam clean their vaginas.

And this was kind of... Scientifically sound. Is everyone knows? Yes. And it was like big news. This was before group. So she was just like her star, her health guru star status was about to start rising.

And there's got a lot of attention. And I just thought that is so stupid. And like, but at the same time, you got attention, but not people, not necessarily people being like, this is really dumb and like your vagina is clean and fine. And you don't need to do anything to it. But rather just like, interesting and Gwyneth says this.

And I was like, OK, here's the idea. Science versus Gwyneth Paltrow. And that's basically how I pitched it. And I was like, we're going to take these ideas that others I, guys, are we're going to use humor and explain to people what the real science is. And then it was picked up. And then really, I hadn't really done even that much radio.

I didn't even really listen to podcasts. I had done interviews like this before, but I hadn't sat down and made complicated radio before. And so I didn't really know what I was doing. But I knew how to be a science journalist. And so this show ended up doing, well, the stories I woke up one morning and Roman Mars had tweeted about it, which from Australia was very odd. And just like all of a sudden, you know, back when Twitter wasn't so horrible and had it

as an app, my phone was literally blowing up. It was like, one of those stories. And I was like, where did this come from? And like Roman Mars had sent out a tweet. I don't even know how he heard about my little Aussie podcast. And then from there, it started charting in America and then give him a media heard it and then give him a media flew me out to New York.

And that's how I got here. And we're like, they're like, come to America. Everything is fine. Right. And to worry about it here. We're in a way to get to the end of the game. Land of opportunity., come to America, everything is fine. Right. And to worry about it here. Land of dreams. Land of opportunity. Yes.

I mean, that's interesting. So wait, you did the Gwyneth Paltrow app. I know, and I, you asked. I run it, I run it that night. That's like an a lot of smart said, I run it. But I never did it. I have never done it. Wait, are you joking?

You're joking. No. You didn't do the, because I actually, I ran a website called the outline And we had a we did a story called the unbearable wrongness of wenteth pal tro, which was in 2017 and And it was just about this exact topic, which is the the junk science of wenteth pal tro's You know her whatever

We do both. I guess there was well because I guess we had the paleo diet to unpack. No, I can't believe you pitched the vagina steaming debunk and then didn't do it. I mean, that's crazy. Why you have to do it now. I guess so. I mean, now I feel like it's debunked. It's debunked, right? No, I don't know.

I don't know. But not in the science versus style. It's true. Not with an Australian accent. So I think, which is that's it. No, but I think that's interesting. I love the cause of the ideas. You know, I mean, like what you hear, it's like the perfect pitch. I mean, what you just said is, you know, if you were,

I can totally see a roomful of people going like, oh yeah, that's really good. We need that. And it makes sense, especially at that time, and especially right now, to just go, we're going to put things to the test. It's also hard to make it fun and conversational. Science can be, I think you know this,

can be very taxing to a person's brain. You're like, I can't deal with these details and this data and this, but like to put it in a conversational, like I was just listening to your episode about lab-grown meat. And the topic, I'm interested in it because I'm largely vegetarian, at least I'm trying, very hard and have been mostly successful.

But I'm very interested in ways to eat meat that doesn't involve the death of an animal. And so I was listening to that episode. Now, a lot of people aren't that interested. They might be interested in the in the outcome. But I think you make it, you make the, I mean, to say it's conversational is one thing, but you take very complex ideas and you break them down in these really interesting and and accessible ways. You know, has that been, obviously, as a journalist, you're always doing that to some extent. Has it been, has there been a learning curve there with how,

what works and what doesn't when you're telling people things about how science views are particular topic? Have there been things that haven't worked when you've tried to explain something that you feel like just didn't connect with people? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it definitely has been a learning curve. And I think having a team is really helpful for that because I'll write something

and everyone will be like, that's really confusing. But then they'll jump on that and produce a resolution. I'd be like, well, what about this? What about maybe if you just write it like this and then someone will be like, what if you do? So it's definitely, and I think the fact that we're talking it out is helpful to land on whatever metaphor we get on. But early on, to answer your question,

one that we really struggled with, because you can describe a lot of concepts through analogy and things like that. And of course, the trick with analogies and metaphors is it just gives the listener a sense that they understand what's going on, when maybe you don't necessarily understand it. Which I know because that's how physicists often explain like deep physical or mathematical concepts to me, like they'll just be like, you know, it's like the leaf. And I'm like, I don't think it's really like the leaf, but I appreciate you trying.

But when we tried to describe what the clitoris looks like, we really struggled. That was the clitoris looks like. We really struggled. That was the G-Spot episode. And I mean, it's an amazing shape that sort of wraps around the vagina and this, I think, but now it's quite known. When we did the episode, it was a little bit of a revelation

that the little nubuces literally the tip of the iceberg. And it's just the beginning. It's just the beginning of the adventure. And but describing it, it's sort of like we learned it on. We ended up making a joke about it. I don't know how successful it was where we were like, imagine it's like Reynolds moustache that has two arms coming on either side.

And you know, every time the scientist tried to describe it, they would be like the lateral side and the blah blah We're just like, oh, it's just a very difficult type to describe As you're as you're describing I'm actually looking at a medical Drawing of the clitoris and I do understand what you're saying about the mustache. Thank you How would you but also? How well I'm looking at the Wikipedia entry, which maybe is not the... I would have described it. It looks like a little gentleman wearing a coat.

The coat tails are kind of... Do you see what I mean? The right ear was the highest spot of time. It's like a cyclops wearing an overcoat. It's how I describe it with a hoodie. A cyclops with a hoodie on wearing an overcoat of the same color. Maybe I don't know. I mean, it's very difficult.

I'd say it's like, you know, Bert Reynolds mustache. Great. It probably is the best I can describe. No, but you're right. It is a challenging, also like look, it's audio, right? You don't have the, you don't have a visual depiction. You can't just say, well, look at the photo, you know, or look at this. I'm looking, but I'm scrolling the Wikipedia entry right now, which is really detailed. And I have to wonder if it needs to be as detailed as it is. It feels like they went, oh, above it be hot. Like, there's some, like, like, maybe there's some men

that really needed a, really needed this. But yeah, no, I, so, so wait, did you actually describe his birth round of postcards on that? That's what we landed on in the end. And did you get a lot of feedback, a lot of negative feedback? No, positive. I think mostly positive feedback.

People are like, that's exactly how I talk about it when I'm talking about the better. Yeah, I think, I think generally, I mean, it's actually, if we would have gone positive feedback, but generally for our sex-related episodes, so we just did want about orgasm, we actually don't tend to get a lot of feedback, which is my theory, my theory is America, some people in America are quite prudish, and so they, these episodes, do very well in the downloads. So we know people are listening, but they don't like to retweet about them. No, no, no.

We have, people don't like to talk about sex in America. It's very, we have a very strange culture, and perhaps you've noticed. I mean, you're basically an American, so, I mean, you are an American, actually. It sounds like so. But you didn't live here, but you haven't lived here your whole life. I mean, we have a very strange relationship with sex. I mean, we're very pro-violence, as you know. Like, all the time I'm watching television,

I'm like, I can't believe this is on television, but like, we will not show a breast. It's like, we're very scared of nudity or sex, but everything else is completely fine with us. So I can totally understand people not sharing or talking about the G-Spot episode. Fun, totally seemingly unrelated, but not aside to the G-Spot episode.

I live in a house that was once owned by a woman named Alice Latiss, and I don't know if she was, you talked about her at all. She wrote the book, The G-Spot, which is I believe like the first book about, yeah, and the only reason I believe like the first book about, yeah, and the reason I, the only reason I know of the book's existence, other than my years of sexual research, is the she used to own our house, and my wife Laura has kept in touch with all of the people

who've owned the house previous to us who are still alive, and we have her book here, and it's obviously a great read. But the G-Spot apparently, hotly contested for a very long time. Yeah. By the way, where did you arrive with the G-Spot episode? Well, the We Spock Tits are Beverly Whipple, is the woman, I'm sure it's mentioned in that book.

It's the Whipple, the Whipple method. Yeah, it was discussed whether the G-Spot was actually gonna be called the Whipple Tickle, at one point. Oh, no, oh boy. Wait, maybe it wouldn't have gotten there. The whipple tickle. The Whipple tickle. The Whipple tickle.

Okay. Great. And then they went for G-Spot. And so we arrived after, I mean, the interesting thing that, I don't know, I guess there's like a lot of interesting facets to the J-Sport album, but one of them is the reason that, so bottom line, this idea of a J-Sport, it's way more likely to just be the clitoris

that's like wrapped around and way bigger than people thought. And so for some women, because some women, they, there's no like spot, there's no like anatomical spot that's like a little button and you press it. That's like there it is. It's like, you did next right and it's right there. You can see it clearly. Exactly, exactly. There's no, there's no spot. And so, but there's probably a region that if you press on some women, it hits the clitoris on the other side. And that's what's exciting.

And so scientists have this fancy word for it. That's the Vajoyura clitoris, which is basically just like, you're hitting the clitoris on the other side through the vaginal hole. But what was kind of even bigger than all that was the reason that the idea of the G-spot was able to sustain and like live in the world for so long is because scientists,

modern scientists hadn't analyzed the vagina and the parts around it closely enough. So that when that idea came about, they were like, you know, science couldn't be like, no, there's no spot there. They were like, hmm, maybe there is. We haven't looked properly. Let's not bother with that.

Let me get more important things. Yeah, and so, more is if someone had been like, there's the peace spot on the penis, and you press that, and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we have looked at the penis, going closely, and there is no peace spot whatsoever. But they would have been like, we did do a lot of research on this right now.

Exactly. But with the Jespa, they were like, sure, I mean, you know what's going on in that, in that whole of yours. They were like, you're hysterical, get out of here. Exactly. And so it wasn't until the 90s, the 90s, like our lifetime, when a scientist actually properly started analyzing the anatomy of that region, and then was able to look at the nerves in the area closely and actually write a paper that's like, this is what's going on down there. So that's when the G-Sport

myth came about in the maybe 80s, maybe like 70s. So that's kind of the big story there. It was a very fun episode. That's so interesting. I mean, it's interesting on several levels. Obviously the science of it, which, you know, there you go, there's your show. Not surprisingly, should be interesting and you should wanna hear about it.

But I love that idea that, I mean, it's so perfect that of course the men just did care or were interested or what were like scared to find out. I mean it's crazy that we would have gone on that law with people just wondering about it. Yeah, you know, that seems, that seems, but you know, this explains everything that's happening right now with the kind of this sort of like idea of how how how what we can know and what we don't know. I feel like there's almost a willingness. Do you ever feel this? I mean, you do a show every day, every week I assume you're talking about proof, right?

You're talking about getting to the facts. You're talking about what the experts who've spent their entire life studying this see and understand. And then you've got a whole world of people that almost don't want to hear it, right? You know, that would almost rather be in the dark. You know, does that, does that frighten you? Does that, does that freak you out? Does that, especially now that you're in America full time? I mean, does that, does that worry you about the future of, of education and the future of humanity? It's a big question. I'm like, are you worried about the destruction of the human brain? I guess, you know, to be honest, I'm like, I don't look at Twitter. So I don't know.

No, I mean, I'm not that so generous with my time and my like emotional labor that I really want to give those people that much of it is the truth. And I know. There's a lot of people. You know 70 million, like 72 million people voted for Trump. I mean, and there's just so many people.

A lot of people who are idiots, who are true, true idiots in there, they're not only idiots, because I don't mind naïveety, I got no problem with. Like, people who don't know the facts, that is absolutely fine. My job is literally to read them. I get paid to do this.

Other people get paid to do other stuff. So like, not knowing stuff is totally fine. But like, being proud of ignorance and not and being proud of whatever bullshit they think. I'm like, I got no time for you. You live your life, you go. I mean, I know in the world of coronavirus, it's not good because they overcome spreaders,

but I have no, I can't do anything about that. You can't suffer fools, is that what you're talking about? I don't do anything about that. You can't suffer fools. Is that what you're saying? I don't have time to suffer fools, and I really don't want to spend my life trying to talk to those people and get them out of the bubble. Like, they got themselves into that bubble, and I just like can't, I can't,

I know there's better people than I out there who are willing to connect. I make the show, it's there to listen, they can make the transcript. Those people I started when I was 5. It's sort of wild actually to hear you say that just because your career is like speaking truth about things that are provable. You are in the business of, and by the way I completely hear what you're saying and I wish I had, frankly, some of the, I don't know what the word is, stamina to resist.

Yeah, the wisdom, thank you. That's the word, the wisdom, the wisdom to resist. Cause sometimes I'm like, I have to respond. I don't know why, but I just have to, but you do a show, which is like, you know, and I hate to, you know, maybe I'm being a dead horse, but which is rude and you shouldn't do it.

But, but, you know, you do a show that is like, hey, here's information, I'm putting it out there, I want the world to know better, I want them to understand like the G spot. What is it, does it exist? What should you know about it? I mean, that's, you know, you are to some extent, even though you say, I don't have time for this

and you know, you've got no time for people who kind of, who own and are excited about their own ignorance true But you are providing a service that hopefully could potentially I'm all these like caveats and and qualifiers hopefully potentially maybe someday possibly get to the people who are who are Walking around being I have time for the curious I have time for the people I have so much time for people who just don't know and want the answer and who maybe have watched a little bit of Fox News, maybe spoke to someone who was pretty convincing

about the volcano's cause climate change or whatever and like and they're just like I just don't know now I'm more confused and I have so much time. Wait volcanoes, volcanoes, I don't remember that. They were like, are you sure it's not the volcanic part of the planet? It sounds right to me, actually. It sounds right. And then you mean in all, you know, it goes back to that back in the, I think, the 70s or 80s that was actually a question scientist were like, maybe it is. Maybe and then they were like, no, it's definitely not.

No, we can see. Yeah, definitely buses. Yeah. Exactly. But, you know, there was a time when that was a genuine question and then, like then for decades later people were like, but they're vulgar. Anyway, I have time, so I have so much time for people who genuinely don't know and want

answers. I just, the people who you're talking about who are just so firmly entrenched and think they got the right answer and are so proud of themselves. I just like imagine them chewing on a bone and I'm just like, I just hope you don't destroy the world on the way down, but I can't give you. Chewing on a bone is a very fifth. Don't you think that's it? That's what I see.

You mean like they're like cavemen? Is that what you're saying? Or just like, I don't know, maybe it's, you know what I'm imagining is, maybe this helps me get through my day. But I think there's a scene in the Lion King with a hyenas that's just like chewing on a bone and they're just like,

and that's kind of what I imagine. There's corners of Twitter where people are just so proud of the ignorance. And I just, Yeah, hyenas. Hyenas, right? I feel like you're gonna get people mad at you on Twitter for this. You know what? It's fine. You're not looking.

It's fine. No, you're not reading so they can say whatever they want. Okay, so we only have a little bit more time but I want to ask you, you've had Dr. Fauci on the show more than once, right? A couple of times. Yeah, so you're good friends with Anthony Fauci, the greatest epidemiologist. Is he an epidemiologist? Is that his actual type of what to say? Well, we don't know.

Well, you maybe you'll do an episode about it. And every rate. So, so, so look, so we're in a really interesting point with coronavirus. Obviously, it has been, and if you're interested in science, this is a topic that is, and certainly the show has, you know, episodes about this. But what is your, give me a little bit of your prediction. I wanna hear, and maybe this will make me feel better or worse, I don't know.

Tell me about what you see 2021 looking like, based on all the things you've learned, all the people you've talked to, like Dr. Fauci, give me your prediction for what's gonna happen next with coronavirus, because you know, I mean, at least you've been listening, what you think next year looks like for us, and where we are in mid-November of 2021.

Okay, mid-November, all right. Just a small, small part. All right, this is, I should caveat all of this with just this little anecdote, and then I ate, and you can obviously cut this out, but we made a bet after we did our coronavirus season, which finished in June. We made 21 episodes, working our ass off reading absolutely everything. We possibly could have out the coronavirus

at the end of the season. We made a bet with the team about when we would be back in the office. And I said, I think, like, what would have been two weeks ago? Oh my God, you were one of the very hopeful. What was it thinking? I was so stupid. I know. So, so that. No, it's fair. I've had a series of meetings with people at our company and and they're like, you know, I think in a couple of weeks it's going to be, I'm like, I don't know. I do think there's like, you have that hopefulness. You're like, maybe it is going to like clear up. Yeah.

So, okay. So now that I've put my credentials out there as a fortune teller, okay, this is what I think will happen. I do think a vaccine will become available sometime next year. It'll first go out to healthcare workers or certain groups of high-risk people. Some people are gonna take it, some people won't. There's gonna be a lot of talk about,

but I do think a lot of people are gonna take it ultimately. And- Yes, I can't wait. Yeah, but I think that in the meantime, there's gonna be so many articles about how no one's gonna take it. And so too few people, but I do think once we start seeing real data and not like, because right now we just have press releases

about these vaccines, but I do think once we get real data around what are some of the side effects, you know, the press releases say they're not seeing anything serious, but I want to know more. But I do think the word is going to get out and even Fox News is going to ultimately before this vaccine. And so I think people are going to take it. And then I think for people like us who are relatively healthy, not in the frontline,

maybe we'll get, maybe we'll get the vaccine by, maybe back to October or something. Oh, that late. I think so, I think it's gonna take a really long time to get the vials and the glass and all the logistics. The refrigerators. The refrigerators, all that stuff. Yeah, so I think, I think,

and I heard a scientist describe the end of the pandemic as a fizzle, not a bang, and that feels right. I think still in my head is this idea that it's gonna be like when the election was announced and we're all going to have a snow day. But I don't think it's going to be real. Like, well, can we can we start doing this now? Oh, okay, it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. I think that's. Right. Because it won't be like on one weekend, we all go in to the doctor's office. Everybody weekend, we all go in to the doctor's office. Everybody gets it. And then on Monday, we're like back to the office. Yeah, exactly. It's going to be a real slogan. And I do think there's

going to be a couple of different vaccines. And people will probably be like, which one do you get? Like, I'm a dinner. I go Fiza. Yeah, that's kind of that's my, all right. Let's just say, should we say, in a year? year, say how I did. That's good. So you're saying in a year from now on, in mid-November, you and I potentially will be able to go to a bar and have a drink or go out with a group of friends or have dinner normally. Yeah, I think so.

I think so. So like a Christmas miracle, basically, is what we're really looking at yeah Yeah, got another year. Oh, I know I know even just as I was like saying that I was I was just going back to the high a Not I was like now it has my face on it. It's like right right well. I mean, you know It's at least something to look forward to honestly. I was I have been saying I'm like maybe middle of next year We'll start to get it, but I like that I'm hearing a less ambitious, probably more realistic version of this because I, I'm scared of being too hopeful at this point about anything.

I'm kind of like, well, just settle in folks because we're going to be here for a while. I've honestly, listen, I'm maybe I'm used to it. I think I, I kind of like it. I like not going anywhere. I like not going anywhere. I like not doing anything. Sure. I feel like I spent my whole life going places and doing things and now I get like, you know, I'm forced to consider stillness,

which is having some interesting side effects. Anyhow, okay, I've kept you on longer than I said I would, but you know what, you're extremely so, Wendy's so interesting to listen to and to talk to. And I encourage everybody who has ears, even if you don't have ears, get go on and find this, go find this podcast wherever you listen to the science versus it's so interesting. The episodes are every episode of So Engaging. Wendy, you're such a fascinating host to listen to on the show and such a fascinating guest to listen to in a conversation. So thank you so much for doing this.

Please come back soon. Maybe we'll do a check-in and see where things are at with your prediction sometime next year. I hope you're right. I hope you're right. Can I say that? Oh, God. Yes, you definitely can.

I hope I'm right, too. I get no work for it. It's been so much fun. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, this was super fun. Thank you so much. Well, that was fascinating.

Yeah, no, Wendy, incredible, an incredible guest, and certainly welcome back anytime, as far as I'm concerned. And I'm a big fan of science, as you know. In fact, I just read this great paper on chemtrails, which you should check out. Uh, uh, it's quite a pack. Anyhow, should we, should we wrap this baby? Yeah, let's do nice things and get out of here. Let's do it. Let's do it already. Okay, you go first. You always have, you're always so good at the nice things. I'm obsessed with the Raditouille musical that TikTok Gen Z

TikTokers are reekig. Unprompted, they've decided to put together a Broadway musical for the film Raditouille based off of one very catchy jingle which is I'll play here because I'm not a very good singer. Okay. And now good luck getting that out of your head. And then they went ahead and they made the Act 2 finale song, the villain song, the introduction to the restaurant song, and they've designed costumes, and they've set designs, and they made a play bill. So if you go on TikTok and you search for to a musical, everything you need to put together like a Disney level Broadway show has been done by Gen Z influencers. And some of it's

really good. Some of it's really good and really funny. Some of it's really bad and really funny. It's just it's we're all so cooped up, especially theater kids with like nothing to use our talents on. And it's really cool to see people just decide to pick something and execute on on. And it's really cool to see people just decide to pick something and execute on it. Like it doesn't need, they don't need a reason, which I love. And that song that I just played has been in my head

for like days at this point. So now it's in your head. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the one thing I've, and I've talked about this before, the one thing that I've been consistently impressed by. And I think it really is a moment unlike any other like and I never expected this to happen to be honest like what what's happening on TikTok

There's like a ton of unbridled creativity happening there that's just completely organic And this is a great example of it and I have to say like you may discount I originally just kind of tick-tock and I still have like I still think there's a lot of like Problems with tic-tac and it tick-tac tick-tac I originally just kinda ticked off and I still have, like, I still think there's a lot of like, problems with TickTack and TickTack. TickTack, whatever. Did I say TickTack twice? No, you just won. Or just one time. You know, I think this may change your mind about TickTack and certainly I think there are still issues with it.

You know, there still is like a high volume of like, scamply, clad teen girls dancing to music, which I think maybe as a dad now, I'm maybe a little bit more like, oh, that's unusual and maybe not great, not a great signal to send to the young girls of the world. But then there's a ton of other stuff that isn't that. If you actually go down those rabbit holes and you avoid the stuff that's a little sketchy, you actually find some really amazing and sort of inspiring moments. And so, my opinion on TikTok has changed dramatically, and not for nothing. I think Trump being against TikTok has made me very interested in being pro TikTok.

So, congratulations to Donald Trump for creating a new tech talk. And to the rad of all our dreams. And yes, I guess so. I mean, I don't know. I'm still confused about the plot of Ratatouille. It's a rat cooking in a restaurant, which feels like a massive health violation on just like so many levels. But my understanding is he's controlling a person. It's very complicated, I guess, but in any rate. So my nice thing is, I think probably in a familiar space for me, but for whatever reason this week, Zelda started being interested in Super Mario 2 for the NES. And with the American one, I guess so.

Whatever's on the classic, the NES classic. Okay, it's American one. Which is an unbelievably frustrating game to play. Oh, my God. Very, very hard. But I will say that, you know, she plays a lot of games that are very forgiven. And I was explaining to this, explaining this to her last night, because we were playing it, and she was like dying a lot as one does in every Super Mario game. And when you first are playing, it's so frustrating you wanna cry. And even for an adult, by the way, not just for a child.

And so I was explaining to her, in the old days, video games were not forgiving. They didn't have a lot of chances. You didn't have, like if you fell off the cliff, you weren't bounced back onto the cliff. They were just, they're just merciless, you know? And I was saying, you know, this is just a merciless experience, but like getting good at this will make you good at a lot of other video games, you know? And she, I think it's starting to get into it and wants to be challenged by it. And I think that's exciting.

Just, also, it's gotten me playing it, which I never played. I'm not a big Super Mario fan. And I really never even played Super Mario 2, which Laura has played extensively. I have very little knowledge of or experience with. And so I'm also kind of discovering it. Like Laura knows all the secrets

and the weird little tricks and stuff. I, Zeld and I are just completely flying blind. But I think it's just, it's fun and interesting to go back and remember, I mean, I got, you know, this is the week off coming off the week that I got the PS5, you know, I've been playing all these next gen like PC games. And like it's interesting to go back and play something. It's funny because I was talking about

Demon's Souls. I was asking Twitter if I should play Demon's Souls, which I know is a merciless game that is very hard to play. And I mean, it looks really beautiful. Like I kind of want to get it because it looks so beautiful. But I don't think I would enjoy it. But it is interesting to go back and play a game that doesn't give you a lot of chances. To play with Zelda, I think it's interesting, it's rewarding in a way that she's learning the type of game play that rewards really honed skills. And just generally speaking, I think there's up time and a place for both things, I think is a place for absolutely a place for just being like, hey, I'm having fun playing a game

and I don't need to win. I play my games uneasy. I'm mostly interested. I tend to play games that have a storyline and I'm mostly interested in seeing how I can play through that story. I'm not that interested in becoming the greatest fighter or the greatest shot or whatever.

But I do think there's something really satisfying about also doing it the hard way. And yeah, it's been fun. It's been a fun experience. Fun and frustrating. I mean, she gets, she can get very frustrated as can I, but it's also a very rewarding when you actually win the thing. There we have it. Goodbye. Bye. Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best.

Though, I've just learned that your entire family has moved their social media conversations to parlor, and you're not going to be joining them. you