Tomorrow - 226: Welcome to Natalia Petrzela's fantasty

Episode Date: February 15, 2021

This week, Josh and Ryan discuss WandaVision, Apple's rumored VR/AR headset, and leaving Britney alone. Then we all have the distinct honor of hearing from Natalia Petrzela, historian and host of the new podcast Welcome to Your Fantasy, about the wild history of Chippendales. Grab your collar and cuffs, it's episode 226! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to Tomorrow. I'm your host Josh Wittipolsky. Today on the podcast we discuss strippers, Britney Spears, and Jay Jonah Jameson. I don't always one minute. Let's get right into it. Alright Ryan, we're back. It's another week. It certainly is. We actually were not did not podcast last week because I had food poisoning. Indeed. And every time I checked in, things seem to be worse. I was like, you know what?

I think this is just not gonna happen. You're very rare for me, very rare, but it happened. And I'm happy to say that I've lost 40 pounds. No, I just not. That is my goal, my goal weight is to weigh 40 pounds. Your birth weight of my birth weight. I have six ounces. Actually, it was a big baby.

I think I was like eight pounds, 10 ounces. I was like, my mother loves to tell the story about how I was a large baby. I'm like, can I? I don't know what you're trying to tell me, but I don't like it. Okay. Anyhow, so look, big stuff going on, big week,

big action, lot of activity. Indeed. You know, I, I, you know, I don't know. I don't know what happened. It's been a blur for me because I've been very ill. But we saved, or we're trying to save Britney Spears. We tried to kill Joss Whedon's career. And, Joss Whedon's career and

Joss Whedon's killing his own career. I guess Apple's making a VR headset and that was the week. I mean, supposedly, I think the Apple stuff, all I hear is like, you know, Apple's like, it's like, Apple's making a car with Hyundai, then it's like, actually, no, that's not happening and it was never happening and this is all just made up. I feel like every, um, every story I hear about Apple doing something that I firmly believe is not going

to come to fruition is like that. It's like, Apple's creating a levitt, a hoverboard and then it's like, the hoverboard plans have been scrapped. Like Mark German reports, one day the hoverboard plans have been scrapped like Mark Gurman reports one day the hoverboard is happening then day two is like the hoverboard has been scrapped and all the hoverboard people have been fired. I don't know. I think Apple's doing some market testing. They're like trying to like poke the market to see if they get the right kind of reaction to some of these stories. I always felt that the Apple Watch was like that like the like the press dreamed the Apple Watch

into existence and Apple then was like all right I guess we're making a watch. I mean the Apple Watch was like that, like the press dreamed the Apple Watch into existence. And Apple then was like, oh, all right, I guess we're making a watch. I mean, the Apple Watch, I mean, I don't remember the climate of what proceeded the Apple Watch. I do think the Apple Watch, it was like Fitbit and the Pebble and people were like, this is gonna be the next thing is tiny.

I think what Apple always looks for, this is what you've got to look at, is there already a market established? And is that market, are they looking at a market saying, we believe there's a scale in this market that we can get to where we can dominate? And our margins are going to be such that we make a shit ton of money on the things that we sell.

They also do an analysis of, is there something here that is difficult or keeping this thing from being successful? And can we throw research and product development at it? So like the MP3 player is a perfect example of like, nobody knows how to fucking use this. So if we can make it easy, then that's a completely different product. I, yes, I mean, I think that, well, obviously with everything that Apple does, I mean, I will say they released the Apple Watch version one of the Apple Watch sucked. It was not a good product. It was, it ate a very bad user interface.

It was very hard to understand. And like, I, and I think ultimately was not that much of a success. I think that their second iteration of it when they changed the interface had a, I helped them a lot. But I do think typically when Apple releases a product, when they're talking about doing something that is entering a market that exists, which is almost always what they do. I mean, they almost never, ever, ever create a market for something. In fact, I don't know if they ever create a market for anything. But like smartphones existed, they ever create a market for anything, but like Smartphones existed they they perfect they not perfected But they made them significantly better and easier to use and more commercial more commercially acceptable for people

You know Music players and B3 players existed they made a better system They made the more commercially acceptable. They made a slicker more beautiful more usable product watches sets they made a slicker, more beautiful, more usable product. Watches and fitness bands, I think more fitness bands more than watches, they were like, this is a market we could be in. This could be profitable for us. We already have a lot of the pieces in place. So the next two things that people talk about are this AR VR headset,

which like let's be clear, like AR and VR are two very different things. And it's like, if it's a dual use headset, and if it's a headset at all, I mean, I have real, real, real trouble believing that Apple's gonna make that product for a couple of reasons. One, I don't think that Apple thinks there is a market for people to wear things on their face right now. I really don't.

I think people who don't wear glasses don't want to wear glasses. I'll say this till I'm dead. There is no market for people who are like, I never wear glasses to be like, let me wear these glasses. Like, that is just, it's your face, okay? And it's pretty hard.

It's one thing about putting something on your wrist, one thing about putting something around your neck, like a necklace, putting on some earrings, putting on a sweater, putting on a glove, whatever it is. Putting glasses on your face, that like changes the way your face looks to people. So let's just say there are just glasses and they're AR glasses. Apple doesn't have the technology and people don't want to wear glasses. I just think that there is no technology that exists that's high end enough that will make that work for people. Right now, I don't think they have

a quantum leap in that technology. The second piece is VR. And VR is like, I mean, what is the argument for Apple to get into VR right now, right? And I really need somebody to think about this because the VR market is, I'd say, it's gotta be 98% gaming, you know? Well, my thinking is, and this is how it's around about way of getting there, but that like that VR needs

to be done locally, like the processing, the running, the app, it all needs to be a local device just because when it's streaming or anything, it's nausea inducing, like it needs to, the latency has to be so close to zero. Yeah. And so my thinking is if Apple is trying to avoid getting into the streaming game fight,

which they have done by not allowing those apps on the app store and opening Apple Arcade, which is all locally run games, I think their thinking could be like, how do you push local content, which is what we specialize in further? Maybe VR is the next frontier of that. I don't know.

Apple's not good at gaming, so I don't know why they think that they could walk into this market, which is basically the gaming market, and you're gonna be competing with, at least initially, with gaming PCs. So I don't really know why they think, I don't know. I could see them doing it or at least Tim Cook's Apple doing it,

like the Apple right now. Yeah. I could see them because I didn't think the AirPods Max were a very good move for them. I didn't understand how it helped told their company's story better. I didn't see how it did anything that much better than the AirPods.

And I didn't think the public perception of a $500 pair of headphones was great for them at this exact moment in history. But it sold out. And I think Tim Cuck knows what products will sell, like we'll become like trendy and like visually cultural signifiers. And I think that maybe they're looking for another

like thing that you can see someone like half, you know, like the iPod earbuds, they've recreated that success with the iPhone, with the AirPods, with the Apple Watch, of like, you're walking around with it on, right? So, yeah, I mean, right, I mean, walking around with it on is... You can't do that with VR. You can't do with VR, and again, with AR,

you're talking about, there are so many, one, there's a question of why, right? Yeah, what is it called? There's a real question of what is it solving? I don't have to look at my phone for notifications. Like if Apple should be doing anything, it's solving why we have to deal with so many notifications, right?

And it's not like it should be in your glasses or it should be in your ear. That's not the answer. Yeah, I don't think any people are sitting around right now in the world complaining that they don't have enough or like their notifications are in the wrong place. You know, like, is it solving? Like you can augment, like you can literally overlay reality.

It's like, okay, cool, that's a really good idea. But Apple doesn't have the data set. And there's no, I don't see an argument for where the battery life is coming from, where you have battery life enough that that's actually like not dying into hours for you. I mean, there's just so many weird hurdles, but also again, you've got to wear something on your face, right? Yeah. In public. This is not an iPod you slip in your pocket. It's not your buds that go in your ears, which are like a very familiar and very commercially acceptable thing that exists. So, so yeah, I mean, I just like, I

hear these rumors and I just have trouble really understanding why we think they do this. I actually think the thing that sounds like the most realistic next frontier for Apple is the car. And I think there is a huge argument, right? I think there's innovation in batteries happening right now that they could capitalize on. I think they have a user interface and understanding of user desires. User interface know how an understanding of user desires

that they could do some really interesting things with the experience of the car. I think they have enough mapping data to very successfully do things like autopilot. I mean, they probably have more mapping data than Tesla does, is my guess. If you think of every iPhone in the world being, you know, a partially, a information gathering and car play for map data and car play. And I think that like, you know, they could do very inventive things with how you purchase the car, right?

With like leasing programs or whatever. And I think there's an opportunity there. The question is of course always for them is about margins. You know, I don't know what the margins are on the Tesla. On Tesla cars, I don't think they're very good. I think they're very expensive to produce and they don't make that much money on them. But that's the genius of going to Hyundai and Kia

who make like mass produce fairly good cars, but which have better margins and then Apple can just put their flourishes and touches on it and then it's a premium product. They can't do the roller rocker of cars. I would hope that they have to create something that is the Apple Martin. It has to be like the I car.

It has to be the I mean, the obvious, I mean, it would never happen. The obvious thing is that Apple buys a Tesla or a Rivian or, you know, whoever is actually making these cars that has already, you know, where they can ramp up the production and ramp up the scale. But cars are a mess, you know, it's a very messy space. And so while I think it actually makes sense for them from a company perspective, from a user-based perspective, like, would you drive an Apple car? Like, I think there are a lot of people who would.

I think there are a lot of people who would say, yeah, I'm interested in that. I, you do have to look at it, like, doesn't make sense from a, from a margin standpoint and from a complexity standpoint, you know. Apple has not taken since, since the death of Steve Jobs, its bets have been very moderate. They've been very metered bets.

Yeah. They are like some different iPads, some different size phones. Well, they're a different company. They don't need to take huge swings. Well, no, I know. I'm just saying, they're not taking huge swings. And they're not introducing,

I mean, the Apple Watch is probably closest to, you know, the most innovative thing they've done. But my understanding is I'm pretty sure the Apple Watch was in development. I think it was in development when Steve Jobs was alive. I think there was some, maybe in that existed. There's the innovations that we like,

which is like a cool gadget that does a thing, all right, so good and cool. And it does this thing. That's innovation. But I think Tim Cook sees innovation in like, well, I made the AirPods and now that's the bulk of the money we make is on. Well, like AirPods.

Well, his innovation is, it's a kind of innovation. His innovation is supply chain innovation and margin reduction innovation. So, you know, it's, you know, I just, yeah, I feel like all the stuff about Apple with these huge groundbreaking mind blowing products is very thin. I think the rumors are very thin. I don't buy for a second. Any of them are really on tap. I think the car could make sense. I think the Apple Durgable. Yeah, I think the AR VR thing is much less of a realistic endeavor for them. But all right, what else is going on? But there's a lot of news this week. There was a lot of news last week.

We should we talk about Britney Spears at all. Yeah, let's talk about Britney. There's a huge, there's a New York Times documentary about Britney Spears. It's interesting. There's a New York Times documentary that just came out about Britney Spears, what is it called? Finding Britney. Framing Britney. Framing Britney. Yeah, see I'm on top of all of this.

You know, which explores the history of her as a celebrity in the way the media and the public viewed her and treated her and explores her, this weird relationship she has, this weird situation with her father, where he has this conservative, what is it called? A conservative ship.

A conservatorship, where he basically is in control of her whole life. And it seems very wrong and very weird and very bad, like she doesn't have agency. And so it's an exploration really, but in a lot of ways, it's brought up all of this stuff. Like yesterday, there was a BuzzFeed story, and it's like, fans want Justin Timberlake to apologize.

And it's sort of forced everybody to look backwards and go, hey, wait a second, maybe like when we were all making jokes about Brittany Spears, who was like, I mean, I don't know when she had her nervous breakdown, but it was like, I mean, how old was she? She was like 23 or something. 25, yeah.

25. We were like, ha ha. Look at Britney Spears shaving her head and we all thought it was hilarious. That maybe it's possible that we were treating a human being like an in-em and object and we should reevaluate our behavior. And you know, I think there's a lot of that happening this week. There's a lot of that happening this week. There's a lot of conversation about it.

There is a lot of reflection. And as a result, a lot of people looking at our current crop of stars and current crop of celebrities and saying, you know, what the fuck are we doing here? You know, I say this even as, you know, influencers have made the career of being objectified and creating a fantasy, we've split up the jobs, right? Like a pop star used to have to be an influencer, product development team musician, actor, dancer, singer, songwriter, they had to do TV appearances.

Like there's all these different things that pop stars, like they had to pick their clothes, their fashion. They were the, you know, in the mid 90s, they were the supermodel became the pop star. And like, then we broke them all down. Now you have like Kylie Jenner, who just does social media and develops makeup lines and product endorsement deals. But then you have someone who's a professional TikTok dancer and makes dance videos and becomes very famous, like Maddie Ziegler, just on the dancing.

Then you have, you know, we've broken up those jobs a little bit, and it's less like everybody dresses exactly like Dua Lipa. Although Ariana Grande approximates that level of stardom, it's just really, it's a different media landscape and there's a different level of pressure on these young people, which in some ways is better and in some ways it's worse because we've also made a lot more people famous. There's a lot of famous people now, you know, and they're famous with specific communities. But once you pass a certain level of following, I mean a lot of people say, Twitter is no longer fun after you have 100,000 followers or whatever, or 10,000

or whatever it is. When you pass a certain level of theme, like you open yourself up to all the problems that she was delusional with, and I mean, this whole thing is just so surreal for me to be even talking about because regular people like my mom or like my friends from high school now speak with this like gay pop culture slang that was very heavily like on internet forums and was really only known like Stan. The fact that Stan is a word that politicians use is so surreal to me. Wait, do they?

Do they use it? Yeah, AOC is very cool. AOC is very cool. But AOC is very cool. AOC is very cool. Yes, but, you know, Obama was very cool once before he was the establishment. Very cool. He's very cool.

But it's still very cool. It's just, it's interesting to see that, or even this Britney conversation, which I feel like I spent years on forums or in like chat rooms or whatever, like in college, talking about like what the fuck are they doing to her? And like, this is so fucked up. And like, people look at Britney Spears, like she isn't an artist or look at her, like about like, what the fuck are they doing to her? And like, this is so fucked up and like, people look at Britney Spears like she isn't an artist or look at her like she isn't a person or look at her like, she asked for any of this,

which she never asked for any of this. And I feel like that opinion, I felt like, when I was amongst gay people, mostly, or certain like-minded women, we would talk openly with these terms and about these topics. And now there are these mainstream pieces of discourse, and it's just a little surreal now to be like,

oh, everyone's thinking about the way that we treat young women, and I felt like only I was, not to say that I'm some special person, there's other societal, cultural issues. Ryan had it right all along. There's other cultural issues that I've had huge, huge line spots for. That's right.

But this one is mine. You know what I mean? Like your anti-Semitism. It took you years to not be anti-Semitic, you know? And I think that's, you know, I also like, I'm gonna be honest with you. I hate white people. So that's been a real, come on.

You're gonna get canceled. You're gonna get one of these fucking, these, what is it? Their group called it's like Outlook America, First Look America, Fast Look America, Oh, keepers, Oh keepers. And one of these fucking three percenters or whatever, they're gonna start tweeting about how you said you hate white people on the podcast

and I'm gonna have to fire you, unfortunately, it's very sad, very sad, but you know, but it's just surreal. It's like, it's like, it's like, this is like, I don't know, it's weird to watch this be a reckoning publicly, but it's also so satisfying because like, yeah, we, we really not only did we hurt Britney Spears or Miley Cyrus or whoever is in that role currently now,

not only did we hurt them, but we hurt everybody watching them. Well, it's like, I do think that there is a, I mean, if you could trace, like we did upskirt photos of Britney Spears just getting out of her car when she was mentally ill and we made that, like, press held. And we made that her fault as a country and we made fun of her. And young women looking at that, I mean, what does that say when someone feels you up in a club and makes joke out of it? Well, I think that first off, there is a segment of the media in America and very prevalent in America and in the UK.

Yeah, very much. This tabloid media that has made the hounding of, largely women, but some men, but largely women, the hounding of the stalking of the like grossly invasive sort of like maneuvering around of women, they've made that their business. And for two years, I- For two years, I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- was over 70% of all paparazzi revenue came from just photos of her at a gas station. Yeah, and like, you know, this is to this day,

I mean, this is going on. Of course, the pandemic has made it harder to like, you know, creep shot somebody when they're actually not out in public. But hey, look at the cover us weekly this week and it's Demi Moore on the cover. And it's like, what is Demi Moore doing to her face? And it's like, it's pretty fucked up.

I mean, I understand it, I get the impulse to gossip, right? But gossip between you and me in private is different than putting a person's face on the cover of a magazine and suggesting that there's something wrong with it. You could say that there is or there isn't. But to make it fun of someone's appearance, no matter what the story is,

is not the same as reporting on the army hammers Well, they have you mind seeing. Well, they do it in that they couch it in this kind of concern trolling where they're like We're worried. Yeah, people are worried about to me more. She's lost Perspective or whatever but it's like the point is it is largely this genre of Quote-unquote journalism. It's not really journalism It's just gossip mongering and tabloid Just classic tabloid, just classic tabloid stuff, where you're like, let me, let's focus our attention and objectify this

person, treat them like, treat them truly like an inanimate object, like a person who is not worth the empathy that a normal human receives, because, well, we'll explain it by the fact that, well, they've made themselves a celebrity, or, well, they wear scantily, you know, they're scantily clad on stage. Therefore, it's open season on talking about their body or well, their beauty is one of the reasons they're famous. And so, and like actually, like if you get right down to it, it showcases this enormous lack of empathy for another human being. And I think if you and I have to be too like, you know, you know, unified theory of everything

here. But if you look at the last 10 years, specifically in America, there's a great Adam Surwa story from the Atlantic, called The Cruelty is the point about Trump and his followers. And I do think there's this like, we've done something in society that has like allowed a lack of empathy allowed a lack of empathy

and a lack of care for others to become a prevailing and socially accepted way to proceed through the world. And the truth is if we all had a little bit more empathy and if we all stopped for a second and thought about a person, an individual versus like these, you know, whatever ideas you have of like celebrities, a big, big bucket of things that could be in there, right? But Britney Spears is a person, right?

Like, you know, you could be uncomfortable with, you don't want, you don't want to, like you share a bathroom with a trans person or whatever, but like each trans person is a human being. Like there are human beings there. And like what we, what we fail to do so often is, or not all of us, but many of us, and frankly, we're all guilty we failed to do so often is or not all of us but many of us and frankly we're all guilty of this at one point or another but like there is that lack of empathy that I

think is driven a lot of the discourse and a lot of the politics and a lot of the a lot of what has happened in the world and I think I don't know where I don't know where it stems from I don't know where it comes from but I do think if I can play armchair anthropologist for a second, I do think the internet has done two things at the same time that have made this easier. I'm not saying it certainly precedes the internet, but it's widespread in a way that it's never been before. And I think it's because the internet does two things. One, it makes us more, it makes other people more visible to us, right? Which is, I think it can be a very good thing. It makes the rest of the world people that you don't live right near,

people that you would never think about more visible. But it also makes them visible at a remove. It gives you this, it's voyeuristic almost, right? You're looking at them as this distant object, not as a person, right? As this thing, not as an actual human being. And so I think that like, there is this like, we're reckoning now.

I mean, the Britney thing comes at a really interesting time because it seems like and feels like, and frankly, what's so much of Biden's campaign was about not to bring this back to politics, but it seemed like it was a campaign about empathy, you know, about caring about people versus hating people, you know? Like, like I do have a lot of hate in my heart

for people who follow Donald Trump, and like, you know, it's hard to work out of that to think about, maybe I should have empathy for them, because I think, you know, it's hard to work out of that to think about, maybe I should have empathy for them because I think, you know, in order for me to have empathy for someone, I have to believe that in a similar situation, they would do the same for me. It's hard to like completely empathize with somebody who kind of wants you dead, you know. But it is like, I do think there is this problem that we have that, I don't know what I'm saying,

we gotta understand the right. I actually think the right, they all need mental health services in their lives in a big way. But I do think the lack of empathy has made all of this more prevalent, but also I think now we're starting to gonna start to reckon with what it looks like, what a world looks like. When we go, wait, maybe we have a problem.

And I think the Brittany thing is part of that. It maybe isn't all of it because there's a lot of other underlying problems that have that made that possible. But I think when you begin to be able to empathize with people who you don't know, when you start to think about how it may be for them as a human being and not as an object, then it becomes a lot harder to to hurt them, you know? Yeah, I think it is really notable

that America put down their Britney Spears toy, picked up their Donald Trump toy, put down their Donald Trump toy, and picked up their Britney Spears toy, because I do think they're part of the same level of like national fascination. And it's sort of like the national id. There's this shadow America that wants to just destroy things or just tear things apart or just

take what America is and what's emblematic of America. Like, you know, Brittany's piece of me song. She says, I'm Miss American Dreams since I was 17. We took the girl who was the ultimate avatar for American life and dominance and cultural capital and values and youth culture and then destroyed her. And then we took Donald Trump who was the ultimate, like in the eyes of many people, I don't think that he is, but in the eyes of many people, the ultimate avatar of corporate life, success, money,

he's like a cartoon character to these people. And then we became fixated on that. And it makes me think that America has this thing where we just love a water cooler topic. We love to pick at something and we love an area of culture where it's like, what's going to happen? It turns everything into an action movie and into a story and into a drama,

everything's a soap opera. And it's not healthy that we view everything as entertainment now. We were so good at making movies and video games and music and TV shows that comic books, super heroes, that we turned everything into it. And politics should not be entertainment. And people's personal lives should not be entertainment,

even if they're entertainers. And, you know, it's, I hope that this is actually, like you're saying, a reckoning with the lack of empathy that we have and a reckoning with the kind of destruction that we do for novelty's sake, that we do for novelty's sake, because like, there are other people on the other side of screens. And if it takes Britney Spears to be the person

for you to realize that she existed on the other side of the screens you looked at her from, maybe that you can expend that to other people on the other side of screens. Maybe you don't have to go online and rage about how the Jews are doing X, Y, and Z and because if you met a Jewish person in real life, you probably wouldn't do that. And why wouldn't you do that? Because you know that's a real person. And if you're going online, they can be these avatars and these cartoon characters and these

like these ideas rather than people. And I think we all need to start realizing that like everyone is a person. Everyone is a human being. And whether or not they deserve condemnation is separate from that. Like I think Republicans and Nazis do deserve condemnation. And I do want to shame them. But we have to decide who, how we decide who we hold accountable or scrutinize or I mean, it's like, and it's crazy because all of this has happened in a period, I mean, up until COVID of decadence of like, we have climbed, Maslow's period, pyramid of needs, some of us, at least in the

media, have climbed that. And yet, the same people who like, now have iPhones and have access to as much information as they could ever need. And the greatest minds in the world are just putting their classes and podcasts out on the internet all the time. YouTube videos can be whole university courses made the most like consumable version ever. And at the same time, we haven't, we, all of that's happening at the same time. We haven't erased the need to like watch the world burn a little bit. Yeah.

It speaks, I guess, the human condition, and it's also like, you know, watching Britney pick up the pieces or thinking about how she can pick up the pieces, is probably very similar to how a lot of Americans feel about their own lives. How do we pick up the pieces? And how do we move forward? And what kind of big changes do we need to make to infrastructure

so that this doesn't happen again? You know, America shaved its head in 2016 and and that Metaphor that she has always been wow America shaved its head in 2016 is Iconic Ryan. I don't know if you I don't know if you coin that I Just it's very good. It's iconic and I love it. Thank you. That's why they pay me the big bucks That is that truly is um, but I don't know. I just, I think, I think maybe this signal to me culturally, I didn't know this at the time, but was destruction.

It was over analyzing. It was ripping people apart viciousness. And I may be watching this symbol, Brittany, be cared for lovingly, and apologetically and empathetically. I hope it's not an abuse scenario where we turn again, but I do hope that this is a signal that the whole culture is, if we can do this with our cartoon characters,

celebrities, maybe we can start doing it, like you said, with each other, with other aspects of society, with other groups of people, like, I don't know, I hope the Brittany thing isn't, I hope it isn't just part of an abuse cycle. Like I said, because she's been in one with the public for so long and it's really ugly. And it's sad.

You know, I think about little girls like, like I, frankly, I hope Zelda never knows anything about Britney Spears. Oh my God. I hope she only knows her great songs. Yeah. She'll only know her like the toxic video. She doesn't need to know. Yeah. I don't know about the toxic video,

but there are some other videos, perhaps. You know when she's older, let's not worry about it right now. She's doesn't need to be now, but you know, I hope that one day she knows about like, the songwriting that Britney is responsible for or whatever, but doesn't need to grow up with it hanging over her head that like young women, if they're not virgins,

will be torn apart in the town square. Like that was what my generation believed. That's crazy. Well, you know, thank God we've, hopefully. Well, I don't know how we moved on, very hard to tell. I don't know. At the same time, we have only fans. We're like, you know, people are,

there's the whole JoJoC with thing going on. It's, you know, people are trying to make it into something salacious because she, we saw her as a little girl once, but she's just a teenager who came out as gay. It's not like people are trying to make it into something salacious because she we saw her as a little girl once But she's just a teenager who came out as gay. It's not like a big scandal. I love I love Joe Joe see what even more now that she's out Let's read I caught great role model for children Just the best the best of what we have to offer in my opinion and shame on anybody who dares to descend any hate her way.

President Joe Josie. President, hey, listen, you know what, it could happen and I'm good with that. Although she's probably like a Republican or something. I don't know. I would trust any lesbian Republican or not. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I'm just kidding. Gay Republicans, very confusing position to hold in my opinion. But you know, everybody's different. I just find it to be, I get it, you're not, you know, no one group is monolithic, but there's a lot more Peter Teals than that group of people. It's just like, I actively dislike myself

and people like me is a very weird position to take up. Silver meddling. You know, it happens, it happens. I will look, there's a lot more to talk about, but I wanna, we gotta take a break because we have a great conversation coming up that I think everyone's going to enjoy. And so let's like get into that. And then we can return because I have so many more things to tell you. Our guest today is Natalia Petrazella, a historian and host of the fascinating

new podcast. Welcome to your fantasy about the unseen, unknown backstory of the chip-and-dale dancers, Natalia, thank you for being here. Excited to be here. I mean, I'm probably under-selling it by saying, it sounds like, oh, it's just a backstory of these guys who danced, you know, semi-nude. You actually have done a story about what I considered to be kind of an American phenomenon something that in the 80s and 90s was like

This you know, it was McDonald's like in its sort of branding in America. Obviously not as big as McDonald's in any way not as Acceptable as McDonald's but like that was a family friendly location But when it's like it's like one of those American exports where it's kind of like, you know, it felt like a brand that could only come from, could only exist in and was very popular in America, even though the actual concept of it was fairly like, you know, it's like new demand dancing for, you know,

drunk, ostensibly, or what we believe is like just groups of drunk women who, you know, it's like new demand dancing for, you know, drunk, ostensibly or what we believe is like just groups of drunk women who, you know, are loving it. But like it's brand felt very Disneyland. Like, you know, the first episode is a Disneyland for adults and it did almost feel like the way Vegas feels, you know, Vegas is a dirty place where lots of nasty stuff goes on. But when you think of Vegas in the American sort of, you know, in that realm of American brands, it's like this fun, cool thing. So, so I'm very familiar with chip and does as this like almost vanilla thing, but can you talk a little bit about

what chip and dales was? Like, just give, if somebody has never heard of it, if somebody doesn't know what they're getting into listening to this, can you like talk about a little bit just what chip and Dale's is and was when you came to it for this story? Yeah, absolutely. So I do not use the word iconic lightly and I think it's kind of an annoying word, honestly, but it really is an iconic brand. Chip and Dale's is a brand as as you guys described, that was extremely popular and well-known in the 1980s and still is well-known.

I mean, now it is still a show in Vegas and they have these celebrity headliners who dance and there's a traveling show too, but it's still something that has name recognition even though it was founded in 1979. So I think definitely the brand story is super interesting, but what it is, if you've never heard of it for your listeners, it's male exotic dancers.

Now for men and women, but at the time was very specifically for women, not for men. And the idea was this is not porny, this is not sex work, this is not fullny, this is not sex work, this is not full frontal nudity, this is this thing that's like risqué and sexy, but sanitized at the same time. And yeah, the first episode's called

The Disney Land for adults, and the founder of Chipmint Dales absolutely had that kind of goal. I mean, his two idols were Hugh Hefner and Walt Disney. That's like quite a combo, but one that I think does a lot of work to explain how it is both RISK but also very, you know, very mainstream. Right, and it was, and it was, I mean, in essence, it was a strip show, right? I mean, like the concept was pulled from, you know, this idea of seeing scannily clad people dancing on stage.

Obviously, there was a lot of theatrics and chippin' nails, but it's funny that you say, you know, it wasn't sex work, it wasn't porn, and yet, you know, it was sexy, but it was, I mean, we are talking about something that puts sex front and center, right? I mean, was that, was that, how do I'm curious? And then we'll talk a little bit about the background,

but I'm curious, like, is the impression that you have that the Chippity-O-Dead did this like magic trick? Cause this is what I, when I was listening to the show, I was thought, what an interesting thing that it was able to be, you know, overtly about sex and sexuality. And yet, make it, put it into this cartoonish context. How does that happen?

How did that strike you at all in that way when you started working on that? Yeah, that's a really astute observation. The big focus on, wow, was Chippendale such a big deal, is like, oh my God, women could go to a strip club too, and women could show that they had sexual desires. And that's definitely the way that they sold it. And there's something significant to that. But I think it's really important to your question about putting Sex, Front, and Center to go back

like a level in the story and to look at how hard it was to recruit guys at the beginning to get on stage and take off their clothes for women. Like, the founders were like, could not find men, particularly men that had the look that they kind of wanted, clean cut, who were willing to do that. They thought it was sleazy, they thought it was gross, they thought this must be like a gay thing because the only place you would find a gay male dancer review, sorry, a male dance review would be like a gay club. And so early on, there's that kind of hesitation. Not just like from the women should we go do this risque thing. They were actually

much more comfortable with lining up from like the day it started practically, but more from guys who were like, this is gonna ruin my respectability and so many of the guys from the early days talked about that, but I wanna be an actor, I wanna go into business, like, you know, how will this affect me? And I think some of them are still like a little conflicted about it.

Right, well, it's funny, I mean, suddenly men have to consider things that women have been dealing with for ages, right? They're like, oh, I don't know. This could be bad for my reputation. So let's go back a little bit. Let's actually talk about, because the story is so much about the history, obviously about the history of this, and certainly the arc of where this brand and these people go.

But can you talk a little bit about the founders, a guy named Steve Banerjee, who, when you describe, when this person is describing in the show, just, you know, at once both sounds exactly the opposite of the person I would have expected, and then perfectly exactly who you would think would start something like this.

He sounds kind of like a Pedro Pascal and Wonder Woman kind of character, like a fantastically over the top. Yeah. Like larger than life but much smaller than life. So talk a little bit about this guy and how this and how and how Chip and Dale's actually comes to be at the beginning. Yeah. So Steve Banner G who's the founder of Chip and Dale's is an immigrant from India. He comes to LA by way of Canada. He's got big Hollywood dreams, but he starts out as a gas station franchisee. I'm like to me, that's such an interesting beginning and sort of not intuitive part of this story. Completely different kind of pumping there.

He was, but he was always involved in pumping in some way. All right, anyhow, sorry. Great segue. Yeah, absolutely. That was the first moment when I learned that actually as a historian that I was like, oh, this isn't just like some curiosity, but that was actually sort of representative of the changes in immigration going

on in the US at that time. You had all these immigrants from South Asia coming in after 1965. So I'm like, that's interesting. And then he comes and he basically, you know, has these big Hollywood dreams. Like I said, Walt Disney Hugh Hefner sells the gas stations and buys this club destiny too.

When he names it that and it's totally a dive bar. It's in the Palm section of LA. And he's just very enterprising about wanting to get people in the door and wanting to do something that will distinguish him in the world of LA Nightlife. And so the really early days, he is really kind of just throwing ideas out there. There's women's mud wrestling one night.

There's backgammon, which is like this super hot high end thing to do. You have to have his own back am and club in LA. There's ballroom dancing and on one night of the week, they end up introducing a mail strip contest. But not like what Chip and Dale's is today. Like it is like, walk out, take off your clothes, women clap, the guy who gets the most clapping

gets like a hundred bucks at the end of the day. It was like like an open mic like an amateur night. Okay. They did have some guys who were trained to dance or as well. Let's just say that was not the main attraction. Right. And it wasn't like put together. It wasn't like a review. It was basically like, if you come in and you want to take off your clothes,

we'll let you do it. They were scouting together a team of like, I wonder, I know this is such a minor thing, but I got hung up on when I was listening is, you said that Destiny 2 was the name of the club, and there was no Destiny 1, and I'm just dying to understand. And I was fascinated with it. I know it sounds like I know that's not not by far

the most interesting part of the story, but do you know why it was called Destiny 2, or why there was no Destiny 1? So in my mind, I thought, well, it must be they thought this is not going to be the first place you go in the night But like once you're really drunk, you'll probably go to destiny It's like your second destination. So maybe there's some relationship there So you know like do you know why there was no destiny one such a great question and one that we have spent an incredible About a time researching we never got a conclusive answer, but I will say that one of the listeners who was internal to Spotify heard that and had spent time in India and was like,

that's such an Indian thing. You would name it Destiny 2, even if there's not a Destiny 1, to make it seem like you have two locations. Now that is not confirmed, but I thought that was an interesting insight that like not even the expert in South Asians in California told us but that is one theory Well, that's so interesting also because so much of this is about creating a mystery and creating a story for I mean this this you know the founder He's so much of so much of what he's doing. I mean, you have that early recording of him where he's basically being like fake interview to kind of, you know, come out of the, his shell a little bit or whatever. And it's like, oh, here's a person who's really trying to create an aura of like the Hugh

Hefner aura, like you talk about. So it's interesting to imagine. I'm so, that's so, that's so unexpected. Like, I thought it would be the answer to that is like well nobody really knows but even and maybe we don't know that's the case but even that little tidbit speaks so much to the bigger story that you're talking about here which is this part of this you know story is this pursuit of fame and fortune and and to become that iconic certainly the brand, but I think that Steve Banerjee clearly had this idea in his mind that he would be this Hugh Hefner-like character. So, one thing just because you asked also before, more of what he's like,

he did not immediately fit that part. He had a really thick accent, he had a stutter. As he made money, he was a really fancy guy, like nice suits, Mercedes, he would drive like a bends around. But he would not naturally, he was not naturally a guy who like found the limelight, particularly when he's surrounded with all these hot guys, right? So he's a little bit of a sort of in the shadows figure,

even as he definitely wanted to be like a baller and a high roller. Right. Yeah, the difference between Hugh Heffner and him and would always be, no matter how successful Chip and Dill's ever got, is the gender dynamics, right? Like Hugh Heffner can be given all the credit for like the hot girls coming around

and he's the focus of attention because women are looked at as objects, whereas all those men up there dancing will always pull focus from the man who like put it together. And I found the gender dynamics of, I found the gender dynamics of that whole thing extremely interesting of just like, you know, is this feminist, is this exploit finding a new way to exploit like, you know, the male gaze in some way? Like, it's, it's very, it makes for a very different path for him

than Hugh Heffner or like Larry Flintad, you know? Totally, and I think you're absolutely right to point that out, especially if you think, and here comes that 80s context again, like Chippendale's rises to fame as HIV AIDS is like destroying gay communities and also really fanning the flames of homophobia. And so Steve Banerjee, who you can imagine kind of early on,

I would say had sort of garden variety homophobia. Like I don't want this to be seen as like a gay place. That through, and I say that like if you could see me, I'm, there's nothing okay with garden variety homophobia. No, of course. There comes homophobia more than anything money. Well, of course. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no They were pushing it as this thing for women or not. I always thought like, I don't know, and maybe this is some internalized homophobia of my own or just the impression that I got from seeing how, like to your point, nude men or mostly nude men dancing at a club was not the domain of, it wasn't a straight domain, in certainly in the 80s. You know?

Yeah, so okay, so just like to finish that thought. So basically, these guys throughout the 80s. Yeah, so, okay, so just like finish that thought. So basically, these guys throughout the 80s actually have to lean in even harder to be like, this isn't a gay thing because there was so much fear and homophobia around anything that was a quote unquote gay thing. But you're absolutely right that from the get-go, there's the central paradox in the Chippendale's men

of like, they're both supposed to be these like super macho like the hetero love machines and they aren't doing like what's quintessentially defined as feminine work. They dance for money, they spend all day tanning and working out and caring about their bodies, they wear hairspray. They're in the, you know, they're in the tanning beds. Like, these are men who are, like, that's usually the work of, like, self-presentation that we associate with women. And like, every guy that I talk to had something to say about this. And a lot of them, I was like, I'd always ask, was the biggest misconception about being a Chippendale's dancer. And they were like, we're not gay. That, you know, that we're gay. No way man was ever gay. Everyone had

sort of strong feelings about that. Well, it's interesting to your point about the prep work and the actual work itself. It is pure objectification. It also seems like gay men would be very good at it and have they given them a chance. You have to. Back up dancers were gay. And everybody made that distinction. I was gonna say, like, there's no way that some of those guys weren't gay. But that is, but the work is the work of objectification, right?

Their entire role is to be objectified, which classically is, you know, sadly, the domain of women in throughout history, right? And so it does kind of flip, I mean, no one's gonna say that like, Chip and Dale's was progressive, but there is an undercurrent there of, maybe by accident, shifting the narrative

a little bit about who can be objectified and in what context. I think that's, you know, I'm sure that Steve Steve Bannerj was not like, let me shift the gender dynamic here by doing chip entails, but I do think by accident or osmosis, it sort of did happen in this case. And women loved it, right? I mean, my impression was the public that women would line up and went, by the time Chip and Dale's was touring

and coming to places like I grew up in Pittsburgh and Chip and Dale's were like, I think they had ads on TV for Chip and Dale's. I actually have a question about this. So nowadays there's this whole phenomenon or there was before COVID of women going to gay bars and that causes a lot of controversy because like the entertainment isn't necessarily

for this community and like, you know, a lot of times for a long time It was like bridal parties would go to a gay bar with a drag show or strip show or something and would be very obnoxious Which was you know politically complicated when we you know gay people couldn't get married But do you think it functions the same for purpose that that does which is But do you think it functions the same purpose that that does, which is the drag queen or the host, or even just gay men being there? It's like these Chippendale's guys being the analog to that are professional and it's a controlled scenario that there's more women in the room than men. And then you have this license to act out to be be like, to get drunk, to yell things at men that you've never gotten to do and flip the script.

Like, I think, you know, I think women aren't provided a lot of spaces with that, right? So when you are provided it, it could be such a, it would be such a freeing thing. Do you think it was more about the actually wanting to see Dancing Menor? Is it more like, this is a once in a lifetime chance to act like you're at a sag party? Um, yeah, no such such good points and so much of what you said there. So yeah, definitely like what Chip and Nails was trying to sell, right? It's like you can just turn the tables and we do a lot of work in the podcast to both show how they presented that table turning as something empowering and also to show its limits.

Like, you know, at the end of the day, like turning the tables for one night is not gonna like change gender dynamics so much. And also, like, how much were those tables really turned? I mean, a lot of the guys' stories are about like the best part of this experience was looking out into the audience and mean like, I'm gonna sleep with her,

I'm gonna sleep with her, I'm gonna sleep with her. Like, that to me seems to suggest that these women were not exactly like driving was looking out to the audience and mean like, I'm gonna sleep with her, I'm gonna sleep with her, I'm gonna sleep with her. Like, that to me seems to suggest that these women were not exactly like driving the ship there. So there's that, but then something else you said, I think really speaks to what might be, like, actually the feminist promise if there is one of Chippin' Nails,

which was these women coming together and going out and having a good time in a primarily female space where they don't have to worry about being hit on where you know if they don't call a guy over with a dollar bill he's not gonna come and grind on her that's something that she's sort of controlling and you know a bunch of women that we interviewed talked about like the most fun was like getting ready together and having this, like, kind of girls experience and the men believing those.

It's very sex in the city. Yeah, totally, like, long before sex in the city. I know, the men are, like, the pretense for going there and everyone likes to talk about how hot they are, but it's really, like, these women making meaning of this experience together. It reminds me a little, this is the same era as like, jazz or size and all these like,

women's exercise spaces. And like, it reminds me a little bit of that, that like women who would always feel like, ah, gyms are like for these big beefy guys, and we get eyeballed or like, totally shouldn't be there. And now we get to have this like exercise space to be in our bodies and wear tight clothes and be together.

Like, to me, it's that same sort of vibe, a little bit that you have with the appeal of Chippendales. I love that somehow we back into like, you know, women's live and feminism through Chippendales, even though that's your point, not really the point and not really like there's a, the part that you're talking about is almost a byproduct of the show itself, right? So, so I want to shift a little bit just because I know we only have you for a limited amount of time and I want to talk about I mean, we've sort of set the backdrop here for the chip and nails world in talking about and I think it's the more I hear you talk about the more

I'm like, I can't wait to see where this goes, but I'm very interested to know what was it for you. Obviously, I think, you know, this is a cultural phenomenon that's interesting no matter like if you even care about American culture, this one stands out. But what was the moment for you and what was that what what was the storyline for you that made you want to spend this kind of time and energy on telling this story like what turned it for you and made you want to spend this a kind of time and energy on telling this story. Like what turned it for you and made this so interesting that you had to go this deep on it? Yeah, so for me it was two, maybe three things.

And one was everything we've just talked about. Like I'm just so fascinated about the way that I'm constantly being served ads for products that promised like women's empowerment by buying something. And like the first thing that kind of grabbed me about Shiffon Dales was that they were doing that in like the late 70s and early 80s and like how much has changed, how much has not changed. So I got interested in it from that kind of thematic perspective. But then when I started looking into the actual story of the brand and I saw that there was this murder in the middle and a whole bunch of other crime we get into in the podcast,

I'm like, oh my god, like there's actually a story that would probably lend itself really well to a different kind of storytelling than one does in, you know, the academic circles I hang out in a lot. And I had, I've had this podcast for over five years with two other historians who actually worked on this show too. It's called Past Present, very different, it's conversational. But we were kind of excited about a new direction in our podcasting lives together. And so, there are a few steps in between that

and making the show, but it seemed to us that this had the meat of a really interesting thematic story that like fired us up from a variety of perspectives that weren't like cultural and social and political, but then also this crying piece with the popularity of true crime podcasts and our podcasting experience, we were like, oh, this is like a perfect name to pitch to, you know, do in a really serious and like considered way. And so we were psyched that pineapple stream and gimmelton Spotify wanted to be involved in working for that. I was going to ask about the whole murder angle of it. As somebody who I love true crime, I'm obsessed. I've read like probably every Manson in Scientology book that exists.

But I, similar to the Manson thing, there's so much cultural baggage that gets brought to the discussion of this murder before you even get into it. How did you sort out what had been skewed through other people's lens and skewed through the lens of what the job is, what the environment is, what the brand is, to the

reality of the situation. Because there's so many movies and TV shows in production that are either inspired directly by this or based on this. And of course, that's going to, that's, you know, that muddies the waters between truth and reality, like reality and fiction. I mean, how did you, like, how did you find the truth of it and find the like, the hard facts of the case and like the truth of the story that was in there? Yeah, it's a really good question. So I think, you know, when you have like a dramatic story about like a murder or a killing, like there is a way that that stop is often told, particularly in mainstream big-budget media, which is as this conflict between individuals. I think that's really

interesting and can make for super compelling storytelling. But as someone who has spent her whole career studying culture and context and structures, To me, I was less interested in that purely character driven kind of narrative and more interested in like, you know, how did these guys come to care so much about what they did? How did this brand come to have so much value in that moment? And then from the perspective of characters, because don't get me wrong, there's some great characters and welcome to your fantasy You're gonna get to know From the character perspective. I also wanted to go beyond some of these other media treatments and be like

This is not just a battle between the two men who ran this company This is about the women who showed up at Chippendales and who had their bachelor at there and bought the calendar and hung it in their cubicle This is about the guy who didn't make the troupe because you know he didn't look the part. This is about like all of those figures around this. This is about like the policymaker or the lawyer who prosecutes them in one of their many legal cases. And so it was like both setting up context and multiple individual perspectives from the way that I think this story is often told that motivated me to be like, we can do something different

and I can bring the skills I have as a historian to really tell this in a really different way. So it's interesting hearing you guys talk about the crime aspect of this, which I guess I was less aware of in Ryan, maybe you just need to deepen true crime. But, I mean, how much of that is, I wonder, in the case of this story, obviously there's this, there seems to be historically this connection between sex work and pornography and a criminal element. And clearly, as a society, we've driven sex work to the fringes in a way that has made that almost inevitable.

How much of it is the story about that, that because the sat at the fringes in some way had connected to the fringes, because of American culture's weirdness about sex and sex work. And how much of it is is story about these individual people and the paths they take? I guess, was it inevitable that there would be crime wrapped up in the story,

or as you research it as you told the story, was it these particular, these guys who were behind this, who started it, who pushed it, was it just inevitable that they were going to be connected to the criminal aspect of it? Yeah, it's a really good question. Like, is sex work and criminality inextricable? Well, you know, in our society, that, as you say, stigmatizes and criminalizes this kind of work, maybe it is, I will say that there is this paradox where,

Banergy and certainly Nick DeNoia, who came in and really made this into a review, they were really invested in this not being sex work and like making it not be kind of porny, yet at the same time, Banergy had no such reservations about engaging in all kinds of criminality to promote this brand. And so to me, to your point, it's really interesting to think about like, he was in many ways like so dedicated to, you know, finishing and whitewashing this like sexy thing is this is not sex work, this is a Disney land for adults, but at the same time behind the scenes,

he's like taking out hits and like, planting arson's and bezzling funds. And like, so to me, it's actually not the sex work of it that is connected to the criminality, but I would say more kind of his business ethics or lack thereof. Right. And I mean, how did he get there? I mean, can you talk a little bit about that progression? I mean, was it was it day one? I mean, you know, it's a far cry, you know, it's one thing to be running a, you know, chippendale's operations. Another thing to be like literally knee deep and serious crime,

like, you know, me and poor. Yeah, it's a little bit of a psychological question. And of course, Steve Vanity is not around to tell this story about, you know, his own, his own development towards this moment. But to me, it does seem one from talking to a lot of people who knew him and worked with him. For him, profit was its own justification. If you're making money, almost anything is okay in pursuit of that profit.

And so there's that kind of way of thinking, too. Like there are a lot of steps along the way before you get to taking out murder hits on people. And so what we learned is that behind the scenes from very early on, there were all kinds of playing with the law, being dishonest, they characterized his business practices. And so I think that probably he doesn't get caught. He sees that, oh, making a fake call to the cops to say that, you know, there's overcrowding, we'll get the media here, and he just gets more attention. He doesn't get caught for that. And so there's this kind of slow build. And then that's intensified by this really strong rivalry that he ironically has with his partner, Nick

DeNoia. And so he gets really kind of personally jealous and like viscerally angry that he's not getting the full glory and all the money of this thing that he's built. And so that kind of creates this, I think, perfect storm that leads him to be, you know, to the kind of violent acts that he takes and which occupy a lot of welcome to your fantasy. So what was the, so for you, what was the hardest part of this, or the strangest part of it as you went into this?

I mean, clearly, this is your, I mean, this is an area of expertise for you. So, presumably, you're encountering unusual situations from history and culture all the time. Was there something that stood out to you, particularly on this or in this story that was hard to get your head around or difficult to explore? Yeah, I'm trying to think about it, expresses. One of, there were a lot of challenges of different sorts with this project. One of the ones that in terms of the storytelling and the kind of research I was doing,

there were a lot of easily of caric, easily caricatured figures in this story. Like, even if you watch the news reporting about Chipindas, there's the hot beefcake rock star, there's the screaming women, there's the, you know, the evil business man who turns into a murderer. And one of the things that was really important to me in telling this story was to do the legwork and talk to so many people as possible and do so much research to complicate all of those figures, but also making compelling characters that come across in a 45 minute episode. And so, that was really a challenge.

But I think when you start to really talk and do these interviews, and you know, you just hear a few minutes of each interview in these episodes, but I sat for hours and hours with each of these people, and you really get to know them as complex people. And I would like to think that we gave them their due in doing so. But that was really hard and really a priority. So, I know we actually are a little bit, almost out of time. One more question just about this. What is the hope when people listen to this? Obviously, there is this hugely salacious, kind of juicy aspect to listening to.

I mean, as you pointed out, it's like you can almost be very, walk away feeling with a very reductive, getting a very reductive view of it. What do you hope the audience, I mean, you've unearthed this story, you've told it in great detail with great care. What do you hope the audience walks away with when they listen? And I know that's a broad question kind of, you know, you know, there's a million ways you could answer it, but there must be something in your mind that you feel like, you know, if an audience could get one thing from this show, besides being obviously wildly, you know, there's a million ways you could answer it, but there must be something in your mind that you feel like, you know, if an audience could get one thing from this show,

besides being obviously wildly entertained, which it is wildly entertaining. You know, what is it that you hope this communicates or what is the storyline you want people to see inside of it? Yeah, I think one of the most big picture takeaway that I could hope from this series, I think, is that people realize that you know things we think of as kind of pop culture punchlines can actually if you take them seriously reveal really

fascinating important things about our life and the world that we live in. And that's something I hope comes out in this podcast and then like all the work that I do that you know chip and nails it's easy to dismiss is this silly you know know, relic of pop culture, but actually when you like unpack why it was popular, who were the people involved, who showed up, why is it still around? Wow, you start to uncover some really, really interesting things about how we live and how we got here. And so I would say that's the biggest picture takeaway for me. I feel like I've been saying this about reality TV and very specifically Real Housewives

for a long time of like, this is very important. A lot of people are engaging with this for very specific reasons and it is reshaping the way that they have conversations. And I think the Chippendale thing is similarly like, it isn't seen as like a sexual revolution or as like a movement of any kind, but it has this very similar effects on a large

group of people, like, you know, like, straight women are not a small, like sub-community. You know what I mean? Like, so a national, a national touring thing that is changing their behavior is worth analyzing, and it doesn't get, I feel like a lot of stuff that is like women's culture doesn't get the same sort of, you talk about rock and roll or sports and people act like you're talking about the Sistine Chapel, but you talk about women's culture and people like laugh at it.

Oh my gosh, 100% and that is so important to me. I mean, there's no lower hanging fruit for people to act all superior about then women's consumer culture, I think. And you made the point really well. But like, you know, I mentioned jazz or size before, I'm writing a book about fitness culture. And like one of the first battles I always have to fight is like, why should we care about this thing that women spend their time doing as worth talking about? And it's not to say, oh, Chippendale's was feminist. I do not think Chippendale's was feminist, but I think it is worth thinking about how it got marketed, how women made

meaning of that, why it became so popular. So yeah, I totally agree with you. The gendered perspective on this is not all pop culture is treated equally and the women's consumer piece has a lot to do with it. I think that's, I think this is really interesting. By the way, we could do a whole other podcast about talking about, because I was just thinking as you guys were talking about this particular point about the dissection and investigation of pop culture and what lens we see it through. I mean, obviously, there's all of this, the story of the day right now is about Britney Spears and the way that that the way that she was treated

as a kind of pop culture icon through this very specific lens. And when you go back and look, you say, wait a second, that story wasn't the story at all. There was this whole other story that we wouldn't, we either couldn't see or wouldn't allow ourselves to see. And I think, I think that the show has to me in it, it's in a similar, it is on a similar track, which is, look is on a similar track, which is, when you look closer, and when you peel back the obvious answers,

and the expected answers, you find something totally different. You find something completely new there. And I think that this show does it so brilliantly. And I really think it's great. I'm so glad that you could take time to talk to us because I think that I hope that people pay attention because I don't think it's just about looking backwards. I think it's also about when you hear a story like this

and you hear it sort of pull it apart the way you all have done with this show. It makes you look at the story of the moment in a very different way. And I think, you know, that's the value of that cannot be dismissed. I appreciate you're asking these questions so much because not everybody is interested in that facet, but I really appreciate it. So thank you for having me on. Yes, thank you. Natalia Petrazellaella the host of uh... uh... welcomed here fantasy a spotify original podcast which you should absolutely listen to it subscribe to and share right now that i think you so

much for joining us well that was a fun i want to talk about tip and aes every week i have so many unanswered questions about the chip and aes and also i'm i'm still i guess i'll have to go see their show and get some answers. I'm still waiting to find out I applied to become a member of the Chip and Dales. Oh, did you?

Yeah, and I'm still waiting. It's been like two years, but I feel like there's still a chance for me. Any day now to make it. They need like a out of shape, like a blanky out of shape. I'm surprised we didn't have a 2000's reality show where it was like they would transform you into a chip and Dale's dancer with plastic surgery and like makeover stuff.

I think we did. Did we? I feel like there's a show like that. There definitely was a show, there definitely was a reality show that where people got plastic surgery. Oh yeah, I mean the swan. I just meant the swan.

The swan. Oh yeah, yeah, oh a male swan. I just meant the swan the swan. Oh, yeah Yeah, oh a male swan. Yeah, like a male I'm smiling they built in Dale mill file and Just what are the funnier ideas? DeBora For Mill file. I mean, she's very impressive Mill file it is a great idea and. And I know 30 Rock is problematic. There's a lot of stuff on there that seems inappropriate.

Hasn't even- They did have the bad news. It's age poorly, but they did have some pretty fun ideas. A Grand Slam joke is a Grand Slam joke. Exactly. Anyhow, should we, I feel like we just have time for nice. Should we get to the next thing? Yeah, let's do nice things.

Do you want me to go first? Do you want me to go first? Sure. My nice thing this week is the Television program wand division Absolutely Incredible

A++++++ has reengaged me with the entire Marvel universe But also reignited my love of I'm not even kidding of storytelling and television in general like the first job I ever wanted and my still my dream job and my heart of hearts is to show around my own TV show. And like this has, it's so good. It has me amped to want to do that again in my life. And I did a podcast. It's called Slayer Fest 98 that my friend Ian hosts, which is about Buffy and

Angel. But it also covers other similar shows within that genre. And so he does a lot of Marvel stuff, and we did an episode about Juan Division, that episode five that just came out, which had a huge twist, which we'll probably talk about, that we dive into a ton of discussion about just the comic roots and the cultural meanings,

and just the art of this show. And I would recommend you go seek that out. It's two hours, but there's very smart people like I got to talk to about it. But I'm obsessed with it. Are you watching it? I can't stop thinking about it. Yeah, no, I am watching, I am watching the show.

I am glued to, I honestly was like, kind of like, I'm not into this. I think this is kind of, I mean, I enjoyed the stick that Juan Division was doing. I thought I was like, this is a legitimately, you know, spirit, mental and creative idea to do this like sitcom, sort of structure. And, and, you know, Laura sort of was watching it,

like, ambantly, I was like, this show is so annoying sounding, like, I don't know what, I'm not paying attention to it, but she was doing something else. And I agree, like, if you listen, if you step back from like the content of the episodes, it is an extremely annoying sounding show because they are aping this style of like 50s and 60s sitcoms that are like, frankly, those shows were very annoying sounding. I mean, I'm sorry, everyone loves 80s sitcoms. I certainly watch them at the time. I can't make it through an episode of all kinds of things.

It's like being on drugs. I want to scream and throw the TV. No, I mean, it's the most fabricated version of the way people talk that has ever been depicted. And I will say, I think Bo Jack Horseman did a really good job with exploring, partially exploring that the weird, just very drug-like structure of those shows. Or like always sunny where they literally do, they're unhinged, drug addict. I can't, I can't watch that.

Psychopaths, but that's, what sitcom characters are? Like a real life version of Seinfelds is a lot closer to what meth use are than it is to my life. Very unusual, very unusual. No chill whatsoever. But you mentioned this that you're re-engaging with the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And what I want to say is that's interesting

because there was a spoiler alert for anybody who's listening who has not seen the show. They, yeah, please don't spoil it for yourself. If you're listening to this, go watch the show and come back. Please don't spoil this. It's so good. Yeah.

They made a decision in the last episode that aired that not only is makes the show, I mean, the show got infinitely more interesting in the last episode for a variety of reasons, but it took a turn. And I'm just going to say spoiler alert. Don't listen any further if you haven't seen it. Or you haven't read about it. It introduces a character from the X-Men movies, that is a shared character in the universe, in the Marvel universe, that was played by a different actor, basically a different version

of this character who's Wanda's brother Peter, Peter or Peter or well yeah Fox and Disney had to make an agreement that they both use the character with different actors and they wouldn't use the I guess is the Pietro yeah but but he plays the character quick silver and he's prominently featured in the latest the last three X-Men movie movies and what it so what's interesting and the ringer actually had a great story about this,

and I will say like inverse, if you read inverse, they've been covering this in tremendous detail, there's a lot. If you wanna like figure out what's going on in the implications, there's a lot of great stuff on inverse to read. There's nowhere I go faster than when it, why don't you let this go?

Yeah, we don't have this at all. I'm like inverse.com, what are they saying? Yeah, but, but the ringer also had a really interesting essay that kind of like talks about how This Change has these implications is not just that they're like oh wow because now Disney I mean they essentially I mean they finally own they got back the rights to X-Men right they now Disney How fantastic for and fantastic for so they're going to be in the Marvel Cinematic Universe and they've in the Kevin Fieg has talked a lot about How they're gonna bring them back and it's gonna take a while and all this stuff and they basically started now for the first time

It reintroducing it in this way that it works in in ways that are obvious in in ways that that until I sort of read some stuff and thought about it I didn't understand and it is kind of blowing my mind. So on the one level, you're like, so, so Wand Division is a show set in a fictional sitcom that is, again, spoiler alert, it's like essentially created by the Scarlet Witch Wand, that's what we're led to believe at the moment. I don't know. I think that's what we're led to believe that there, that this is some constructions created, which is interpreted, can be interpreted externally as a TV show that is running.

Because she wants a perfect life in the style of the American TV shows she grew up looking at from her Eastern European life. And so within this TV show, they introduce her brother. But her brother is, comes on as a cameo like the lovable uncle character, which is like a very, very much a nod to many classic like Uncle Jesse of the full house and many other famous like TV uncles. And they're like, oh, they recast this character. Yeah.

So, so the character Darcy who's watching the show and is basically like, she's like the people's couch on Bravo. She watches the show and then talks about it. And we at home are supposed to like relate to her and on Bravo, she watches the show and then talks about it, and we at home are supposed to relate to her, and sort of she'll help us get answers that we both need. She's like the audience insert, and when he shows up on screen, there's this amazing moment where,

I mean, it's just amazing from a writing standpoint. I truly believe this scene is just a vertical slice of the show. She says, she recast Pietro, and like that's, she pulled some other version of him in from another universe. And so that in and of itself is like a really fun little thing to play with, right?

That like that, but what it gets to is an even bigger thing that's happening in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which the more I read about and thought about, the more my mind was kind of like read about and thought about, the more my mind was kind of like blown like we're about, we are approaching a thing that has never happened in the history of filmmaking or in the history of entertainment, and it's super fucking weird, and it's only possible because comics are... Corporate mergers, but also these comics are the way they are.

So in the Marvel Universe, there's this concept of the multiverse and the multiverse essentially was created to To stabilize all of the various Backstories and character changes Rebooted and read it existed, you know that have existed in the Marvel world, right? And so and it which is a thing that has happened in comics forever Which is like oh a character dies and they come back or like, oh, another person takes with a mantle or, oh, we change, we retconned the backstory of a character to make it make more sense in the modern context because their old backstory was weird and didn't make any sense. And they basically said, okay, these are all in a,

they are all, they can all be true. And the way that they are all true is that there's a, there are many dimensions and within those dimensions there are different versions of all these characters. And it's like as a comic book concept, it's like a brilliant, it's a stroke of genius because it allows, if you love the original backstory of a character, you're allowed to love it as much as you can love the rebooted backstory of a character. It's all real, okay? So here's what's interesting.

So we do, they do into the spiderverse. And into the spiderverse deals directly with the multiverse. And into the spiderverse is basically all of these different spider-manes, including spider pig, which is a pig, spider-man, like ridiculous versions, but also like the cool spider-man,

like the, it deals with spider- like the spider men who are not Peter Parker. And it brings them into this universe and it's like, oh, this is interesting. This is cool. Like the rumor for the next Spider-Man movie is that that it will include Andrew Garfield Spider-Man. It will include Toby McGuire Spider-Man. It It will include obviously the what's his name, Tom Holland, Spider-Man. And I think there's Miles Morales will be introduced in some way into it. So here's what's going on that's really nuts. Not only are they introducing like this multiverse concept into the canon of the Marvel Cinematic Universe? Like, oh, like the X-Men are involved because they maybe were in another universe, but now they

can be in our universe because of like contractual things that have happened. But what they're actually doing is retconning all of the previous Marvel characters from previous Marvel movies into a modern Marvel universe which like is honestly a very provocative and very unusual concept that is both Completely in keeping with the characters within the stories themselves like the comic characters But it's also like extremely meta, like extremely meta, like that, that our reality that you've lived in is a part of the multiverse.

And that like what, like when you were watching Toby McGuire in the original Spider-Man, the reboot Spider-Man movies or whatever, the first set of them, that that's as much a part of the current Marvel movies as it has always been, as it would have always been, and that were like retconning reality. Which is, it's the brilliant way to have your cake and eat it too, because I've been saying for years that DC's strategy should be

to do weird, one-off, meta things, different alternate universes, different versions of characters, like they did with Joker versus the Jared Lido version, versus the Heath Ledger version, versus the Harley Quinn TV show. Like, I always thought DC what should have been going really hard on being the weird one, if Marvel was gonna be the most like everything here is the canon, every story, every character is hopefully played by the same actor with very, very few exceptions, and they all take place with the same cinematography in the same world. This lets them continue to have that world for when they want to do Captain America

movies, but it also gives them the breadth to say, we're going to do a one-off Captain America movie where it's played by a woman, and it takes place during the 70s, and it's going to be super weird, and then they get to the 70s and it's gonna be super weird and then they can they get to do whatever because it's just an alternate universe and it barely needs to be tied in and it also opens up them to do all this meta storytelling like in Wanda Vision the previously on's are different every time the scenes are rewritten the lighting is different things have been moved around. Oh is that true?

Yes because Wanda is doing them live. She's creating the previously on live. And she remembers it a little differently. It's very meta. It's very meta. I mean, we're very much in like uncharted territory. I have to say, I don't want to give them too much credit because it really hasn't been done yet, but they're in the process of doing it.

If they pull it off the right way, it's an absolutely fascinating attempt at something that has never been done before, which is to bring together, like they are retconning, they're doing what they did with the Marvel universe in the comics with the Marvel universe in, in popular culture, in, in movies and in TV. And it's like, and honestly, it creates some amazing, fascinating storytelling opportunities, right? Like, like, what is a movie like? You know, what is a movie like when it brings in like people who've played the same character from different movies who have who have there whatever reality to contend with?

What kind of storytelling possibilities are opened up there? It's super interesting. Like JK Simmons has played the exact same part in multiple Marvel universes. That's so fascinating. Right, has he? Yeah, he was in the he was in the original spider-man movies right i'm pretty sure isn't he in the gantry garfield ones and now he's in the time holland ones wait is does he play jay jona jay mason in all of the movies i believe so and that and in animated stuff is that right i got i should know this but uh what is uh what is his name again i I just blanked on it. JK Simmons. JK Simmons, right? Okay, if that's right, my mind is blown.

JK Simmons, by the way. Yes, he was the, he, Jay John, and Jameson, amazing Spider-Man 2, Spider-Man Far from Home, and the original Spider-Man trilogy. That's, see, that's, that's a base. It's he, does he play play him into the spider verse? I've seen even in it. I don't know if he, the character is in it, but if he has, I have to assume that he's playing the same part. But it's fascinating because like,

they'll bring together all these different spider men and JK Simmons can do something fun like, like his character doesn't change much into every universe is, that would be so cool and weird. Right, I mean, it's totally, yeah, it totally yeah it's totally I'm just looking now because I his his Wikipedia is very poorly written he did spider myth far from home I don't think he did I'm not seeing into the spider world what's really insane is that he plays gourd James Gordon in Justice League. It's just like, I know. They need to buy, Marvel need to buy DC.

I've said this for a long time, but they need to just buy DC so they can bring DC characters into the Marvel universe. So that some good writers can finally get Catwoman. Yeah, I agree. I'm sorry, it would be amazing if Batman showed up in a Marvel movie. Oh, it would be amazing if the Joker showed up

and they were, they were understating him because they're like, we'd already dealt with Thanos and as much as I'm sick of Joker movies, it would be fun just a guy in clown makeup causing chaos for superheroes. Yes, I mean, by the way, there are comics where there's crossovers of these characters.

Yeah. I have owned comic books where these characters crossover, but yeah, they need to bring, they just need to slam it all together. I mean, this is what, this is so far, like to be the most exciting thing about this stuff, is that they are taking cues from comic books

in a way that's bigger than ever. Like, I mean, we're definitely gonna get like a ultimate universe or a new 52, where it's just a complete restart. Like it may be it'll take 25 years, but at some point they're gonna start the whole universe over again with a new universe with a length to the old Marvel universe.

It's just, it's fucking so ambitious. It's so crazy. I gotta say, and I gotta say, I really dislike the Marvel movies. The early Marvel movies just did nothing for me. It's only really the last couple of, I think, civil war and then the end game and infinity war, whatever. There's a handful of them that are really exceptional.

I thought Black Panther was super, it's very out there for. Some of them are the movies and some aren't, but the magic trick is the crossover stuff. And the last Thor movie was like, absolutely just a visual treat. I think I actually think what hooked me was the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie where I was like, oh, we can have a movie about stuff that isn't just like Captain America and Iron Man, and it can be really interesting.

And I was like, okay, this could be, you know, I maybe I'll get, I'll actually spend time with these. I am legitimately now like this is good and interesting and they are doing something that is ambitious and different and like I wanna spend time with this series, you know. I still, like I felt like after the last few films, you're kinda like, all right, what were you gonna go with this, right?

Now I'm like, wow, they could go so many crazy and interesting places. I kind of begin to think of it, to imagine it. So yeah, all right, that's my nice thing, I guess. That was my nice thing. I'm just gonna piggyback out of your nice thing. It's my nice thing is your nice thing, but a rare your nice thing. It's my nice thing is your nice thing. But a rare double nice thing.

That's a nice thing in and of itself. Oh, you know, anyhow, we got to wrap up. I got to get out of here. All right, bye. Bye. Well that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow, and as always I wish you and your family the very best. Well that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow, and as always I wish you and your family the very best, though I've just learned that your family is recasting the show and you're out.

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