Tomorrow - 228: A single serving of Paul Ford

Episode Date: March 2, 2021

This week we check in with Josh and Ryan about a terrifying robot dog chasing a delightful electric mail truck. Then we get to chat with the best friend of the show, Paul Ford, about vaccinations, Clubhouse, and whipping the dip! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to Tomorrow. I'm your host Josh with Fulski. Today on the podcast, we discuss male carriers, robot dogs, and whip it to dip. I don't waste one minute. Let's get right in. All right, look, we're back. Hello. We did it. We made it.

It's sunny. The sun is shining. It's a balmy 43 degrees where I am. And yeah, I don't know. Life moves. Life goes on. Anyhow, what's going on? What's been happening?

What have you been doing? It's been quite a week. It's vaccination week over at my house. So we're all very happy. That's exciting. I'm very eager to get the vaccine. I'm very eager for everyone to get the vaccine. I've been reading a lot about the science of the vaccine and its effectiveness and it's like immediately showing there's like you can see the impact of even a small number of people getting this vaccination. So it's very exciting. And you know, we have Trump to thank for all of them, which is incredible. You know, they should really have called it the Trump vaccine. The more I think about it. And remember him, that was fun. That was

a fun time. Exactly. But you know, I know, I know, I don't know that many people who are close to me who've gotten it, but it's definitely like, you know, it turns out actually a lot of people have, have like comorbidities and stuff that are, you know, like it's, I'm actually, I guess what I'm, it's funny because like there was this big controversy when people talk about this, the virus, and they were like, well, it only really is bad if you've got these comorbidities,

or if you have this, or if you have that, and it's like, oh, actually, a lot of people, people you know, people you don't think about in that way. You're not like, oh they're not sickly, they're not. People with ads going on. Yeah, people who are like a little bit overweight, like there's all these things. People who have like a risk of heart disease, people who have high blood pressure, you know, it's like stuff that is you wouldn't think is like that big of a deal, but when coupled with this very deadly virus, suddenly it's like, hey, you know, like there's, it actually is worse than you think it is.

And as a result, the vaccine is actually more is going to probably end up, you know, filtering out to younger people and to other communities faster than you thought it would. Which I think is ultimately a good thing. The reality now is like everybody just needs to get the vaccine. As soon as we can get everybody the vaccine to better off we're all going to be. Anyhow, so that's good. I feel like vaguely slightly partially optimistic about the summer and the fall. I feel like I can now start to look forward to, like we told Zelda that she'd have, that because she has a February birthday,

which obviously was like, you know, we could not have a party for. We told her she could have a summer birthday party, and I think by the time like the summer rolls around, they will be able to comfortably like invite people at least for an outdoor thing, you know, and not be super stressed about You know having a group of people together. So I hope that's the case I don't know if like it actually will be the case, but I've basically

Bet my entire parenting life on it. So I'm in big trouble if it doesn't pan out, but you know, I'm I'm excited. I'm excited to just see if we can go back to any type of normal. Well, speaking of government, government fingerprints in breaking technology, we have two other new government pieces of tech that are trending, if you will. USPS, the American Postal Service, is rolling out a new mail carrier car, which is, I don't, people are giving it, people are giving this a lot of shit. I think it's cute. I like it. I think it looks like a little duck, like a little carton duck. It does, it does, but have you seen, it's like, have you seen the old mail carrier trucks? They were good. They're not, it's not like we're going,

it's like, wow, these used to be these sleek, beautiful sports cars and now they look dumb. It's like, these look like a vision of the future from the 70s. Like people who lived in Florida and worked on Epcot, this is their idea of what a male truck would be in the future and I love it. I think they're wonderful and I think that,

you know, great visibility for the male carrier. Absolutely. I'm gonna be in the future and I love it. I think they're wonderful and I think that, great visibility for the male carrier. Absolutely. And I have more comfortable, it looks to be much more comfortable for their actual work experience. It's slightly larger as a bigger back. It's big, big back. Everybody likes a nice thick back thick.

There's definitely a big ass on this car. They're trucker, whatever we're calling it. I think, I think it's great. I like it. I have no problem with it whatsoever. Um, you know, and I, and to anybody who's, who's hating on it, you know, I think you just are, uh, you've bad taste. That's my, that's my feeling. It was quote unquote built for maximum efficiency, which if anything in our postal service can claim maximum efficiency by any like one with any qualifications, I'm happy

that it's rolling out. Yeah, I mean, I look, I'm looking at it right now. I'm staring at it. I, I think this is a great, I mean, it's funny looking for sure. Like, there's definitely something funny about how, how dropped the front of the car is, or trop whatever we're calling it, but like, I don't know, it's this purpose built vehicle. I'm sure there are reasons. I'm not gonna, you know. Nobody's walking around being like,

that school bus is the peak of design. I'm not going to question the reasons, you know, but I am going to say that I support, I support it. I support it in whatever it wants to do, and whatever it wants to do whatever it wants to ally I'm an ally of the USPS What is it called truck journey name? I don't know. It's a male carrier truck I don't know what but yeah, does it have a dessert like a dessert like a nickname the old dejoys special I don't know hold on I feel like I feel like there should be like a fun name that we call it like the

The Johnny it looks like a doofy Pixar character I don't know, hold on. I feel like there should be a fun name that we call it. Like the Johnny or the- It looks like a doofy Pixar character. It looks like a Pixar truck. We should call it the Pixie. The Pixie would be a good name for this truck. I think the people making it or your Oshkosh. They're calling it Oshkosh? That's the name of their company.

The people who make it. Defense contractor Oshkosh. I like his defense contract. Well, they're the only people in America staying in business. So the only people who could actually turn a profit at this point is, as long as we, yeah. Anyway, I think it's great.

I love it. I think it's wonderful. And I plan on immediately getting a career with the USPS so I can drive one of this. Well, it's electric, right? It has electric drive treatment option. There is an option. That's good.

Okay, then I'm not mad about that. I'm not mad about it at all. In fact, I'm happy about it. All right, what else? In less glamorous government technology news, their NYPD has one of those robot dogs from Boston Dynamics patrolling the Bronx. So yeah, one dog for the whole Bronx seems like not enough to me, but yeah, I don't I feel like I do feel like we are I think I

feel like the people who are making these decisions need to watch a few more like sci-fi movies and try to figure out how close their ideas are to dystopic sci-fi movies. Like, I think like, or dystopic depending on who you're depending on what country you're from. I mean, I think like, if it feels like Robocop, you may be doing it wrong, you know, like things didn't turn out too well. Actually, did they turn out, I'm trying to think, how did they turn out in Robocop? Did, was Robocop ultimately like a good idea?

I think not. I think Robocop was ultimately a bad idea. It's my memory of the film. I think it is a great movie. Great movie. Even if the robot dogs don't create like a, like a law enforcement hellscape where they're like have machine guns, Fred's and they stop you

for jumping over subway turn styles or whatever. Yeah. It's probably not good that the NYPD has such disposable funds that they can purchase an autonomous robot dog to do their jobs for them rather than feeding everyone in New York with poverty and homelessness and people, you know, going completely financially upside down during the COVID-19 pandemic that especially hit New York hard. And after the summer of Black Lives Matter protests,

it's a little bold of the N-1P to be like, we spent a million dollars on a robot dog. It's, you know, we only, well, it's just, but like, they have a lot of money that they typically use to pay people for wrongful deaths and murder and and other sorts of violence that they commit in the act of whatever it is they're supposed to be doing but in this case they've decided to deploy a little bit to a robot dog

which I think is a nice change of pace to be honest with you. I picture just some cops sitting around eating donuts and big pigs and just saying like, you know, it would be fucking sick. Let's get a fucking robot dog, bro. Let's get a dog. I feel like, I feel like most people get a dog and they get like, you know, a German chap life. I feel like also there's a lot of, I feel like Boston Dynamics is really pushing at heart, like the utility of the spot dog,

like they're really trying to make it a thing. Like I see, the spot is everywhere, like spot doing all kinds of shit. We did a story about how spots like, you can use spot to do a painting, and then spot was like, he's a cop, and then there's like another spot thing. I forget what it was, but,

you know, I mean, I feel like partially, partially this isn't even about a real idea. They're just like, we could show we're like into exploring the future if we put one of these dogs with like a camera on its head. And it's just like the look, it's just such a bad look. It's such a dumb. I just remember when spots original purpose was like to go into buildings and do bomb tests. You know what I mean? Like spots original purpose was to

was to go into like burning places and pull out babies. And now they're like, spot, we'll bring you Dunkin' Donuts and also shoot your kids. Yeah. I remember when spot existed just to be in videos of being kicked. Oh God, that was fun.

And that was fun. I think that was like pre spot existence is like when they were trying to figure out how to make a spot type of animal. But our spot type of robot or whatever we're calling them a day. A day. I believe it's called a Danimal. Is that what they're calling?

I'm just a robot of that. A robot a robot animal. Over there the Lego's called a Bionicle. Yeah, it's a Bionicle. They've made a Bionicle, which I'm very excited about. But anyhow, so look, I mean, I don't think I actually don't think. I think what's gonna happen is it's an autonomous dog is not going to be an effective policing tool for lots of different reasons.

I think one, it's like, I think it'd be very easy to like sabotage the dog. I'm not saying you should, but I think it would be very easy to, apparently, just pull one little lever and the battery pops out. Yeah, apparently, but I mean, I think people will come up with even more, like you just throw a sheet over it. What happens when you put a blanket over the dog and it can't see anything and it doesn't

know where it's going or just like, you know, push the dog over. Like can the dog turn itself back upright? I guess it can. I would assume that would be one of the worst things they worked on. I don't know. I just feel like I just feel like at the end of the day, the future of policing is not robotic dogs. I mean, it's weird that I have to ponder this. I can't imagine the future of a lot of things being robotic dogs.

Like, well, I mean, pets, hopefully not. Hopefully, we still take care of dogs unless they all die. Yeah, of course. Of course. I mean, no, I mean, a lot of people don't realize this, but if you've watched the original five Planet of the Apes movies, which I have because they're all masterpieces, in I believe it's conquest of the Planet of the Apes, which is the fourth film. Actually, let me just check my math on this one second. Conquest of the Planet of the apes. It is the fourth yes. So in conquest of the planet of the apes.

So what's actually amazing about the planet of the apes films is that the first five is that they are a perfect loop. Now I don't want to spoil the films for anybody. So if you haven't watched the first planet of the Apes film starring Charlton has tonight implore you to stop listening or to watch it and then come back to this podcast, Tony, you know what to do. But in at the end of I hate to go into this, but I feel like I have to at the end of the first plan of the Apes film, the the astronaut played by Charlton has to who crashed lands on a distant planet, discovered where apes can speak and men are mute and treated like animals,

discovers that it's actually the distant future of Earth that instead of flying through space to another planet, he flew through time and then crashed back on Earth. But the stories that follow the original planet of the apes, detail how the earth ended up in the state that it was in. And without giving away too many details, let me just say that in the fourth film, we see a future society in the world where all pets have died because of some disease that's killed off cats and dogs. And for some reason, people have started to have apes as pets, and they also use them as helpers, which leads to a uprising of apes, anyhow. So in a way, you know, let's hope that we don't have some weird disease that kills off all of the pats

on the planet because it could lead to a planet of the apes scenario, which I don't think anybody wants. I remember watching the first two planets of the Ace of the Ace of the Ace, but this is a reveal, like I was joking before. I obviously have some reason. No, but this is a reveal of the actual I was joking before I obviously have seen it. No. But this is a reveal.

I honestly, I implore you, I really, to every listener, I implore you, please get, watch the first five planet of the Apes films in a row. Like it honestly will blow your fucking mind. In my opinion, it's one of the greatest, I know it's like, schlock, like sci-fi stuff from the 60s and 70s, but it's truly one of the most insane, perfect arcs of films that has ever existed in the history of filmmaking. And I feel like it does not get credit

for the absolutely outrageous forward thinking sci-fi ideas that it puts forth. And I really, and they actually do incorporate some of that stuff into the newer plan of the Apes movies, but the original five are just like unbelievable. I mean, I would imagine, I don't, I think I probably watched the first five.

I feel like I watched them with my friend, I had a friend who I, when I was like a teen and young adult, who I just went to his house and like smoked weed with him. And I'm fairly certain that I originally watched the first five. That track. High.

Yeah. And so I probably would say you should do it high if you can. But I think also they hold, I've seen them sober obviously. I've seen them many times. I obviously own the box set. And I think they hold up, even if you watch them stone-called sober. So, you know, just a thought. Just a little thought starter for you on this, on this balmy, sunny winter afternoon. Have you, do you, have you watched The Remakes?

Yes, I have. Do you like them? I do think there, there's some redeeming qualities to some of The Remakes. Yeah, oh, so Rise of the Planet of the Apes is, I guess it's like they actually, it's got a similar premise to the fourth Planet of the Apes movie, which they actually mention in the, they mention in the Wikipedia entry for it. So yeah, I don't remember the details, but I do remember watching it going like, oh, this is like kind of like conquest of the plan of the apes like this plot. So anyhow, the point is,

it's a great series, everyone should watch it, and you'd be a fool not to enjoy it on on weed or a drug of your choosing. Well, you know, unless you're in the Bronx because you don't want any robot dogs. Let's go. You don't want to get shot to death by a dog for smoking a joint. What is the series? What is the, oh, right, dawn of the planet of the apes and war for the planet of the

apes. I just did all out from the very beginning. I didn't watch any of the rebooting remake ones because I don't, here's something I don't like. And I don't know why. I mean, a lot of people have uncanny valley stuff with like, you know, digital people. I don't really get that anymore

because I've seen so many like, Neons or whatever. But what I don't like is digital fur technology. I'll have cats movies. Fake, animal fur creeps me out. It looks so fake. Well, I think they actually did a really good job in these movies. I haven't watched it. I don't know.

So maybe it is. The effects are actually my recollection of these movies is that the newer ones that the Ape effects are really good. And in fact, what I remember a lot about, certainly the first one of the remakes is that they're so good and so realistic that it's really hard to watch because the apes are not treated well for the most part.

And it's like watching animal abuse. And it's like, I'm not saying like, you're not selling it or whatever. No, but it is, it is hard. It is kind of hard to watch. I mean, some people have more of a stomach forth than others. I have a very low tolerance for seen animals, hurt or abused or mistreated in any way.

So I think that unlike the ones from the 70s, which are, you know, it's obviously people in costumes. So you're never like, these apes are so realistic that I believe I can imagine them really being abused by humans. It's like, the new ones are like, oh, this just looks like a real animal. It's in this horrible situation. So anyhow, good for them rising and all of that, good for their dawn. It's great for them.

So what else is going on? Is there any other big news happening? It's been kind of a slow week, which I'm not complaining about. Yeah, I don't think there's been anything that I feel like it will have world-ending consequences. Oh, it looks like a jinxed it's going to happen today. Apple is thinking, oh no, I was just joking. Apple is thinking. Oh, it's like, you never know these days. It's like, oh, we're going to nuclear war. We're doing nuclear war with Russia tonight. It turns out, sorry, I know you had plans for the fall, but where are you to be in a bunker?

Where's my $2,000? You're going to be a mute, an atomic mute, unfortunately. Apple is making new IMAX in Easter colors. How do you feel about those? I don't. I mean, I get it because like now more than ever, people are like, you know, I should just buy a desktop. Like, where am I going? I think it's fine, and I don't care, and who gives a shit. It's a fucking computer. They all do the same thing. I mean,

the here's the reality. It does the same thing as your laptop does, and it's fine, and it's great, and it works wonderfully, and it does all the stuff you need it to do, and it's nothing special, or interesting about it whatsoever. The only thing that you should know about new Macs is that the level of prompts you get to do stuff is like 10 times what a Mac was five years ago. Like prompts to allow you to install something, prompts to give application access to your contacts, prompts to do, me think about all the stuff you do on your phone

and now it's like your computer's just like that and it's super duper fucking annoying. Oh, I wanna install an application from Adobe, it's like, do I am I allowed to install it? The computer would like to ask me. The computer wants to know if I think it's okay to install the application that I've just said that I wanna install.

So that's all you need to know about new Macs, really. I had to restart into somewhere that I could do terminal, like I had to restart into recovery mode, open terminal, type in a command, then restart again, and then go into security settings and say I would allow this app to open, and then I was allowed to run an app that I purposefully downloaded and wanted to run. I did do that the other day. That's very normal. That's very normal computing.

I think, but you know what? It still beats the iPhone where you can't do anything you want to do. I mean, I mean, more than anything talking about it out loud made me just revisit this thought that I had in my head for, you know, maybe five or six years, really, which is, you know, we're just due for some other way of thinking

about how computers and phones operate. And I think a lot of people are like, it's gonna be voice, it's gonna be that, but I actually think, I mean, voice is part of, obviously part of voice and AR and all this stuff is part of a future, but I do think that like we increasingly what we have not done in such a long time is just said, hold on, like, how do these things work? Like folders and file names and desktops and home screens and like drop down menus and radio buttons versus check

button. And all the stuff that we've been doing, this UI stuff we've been doing for the past 30 years or 40 years now, I think we need to take a long hard look at it and just go like, you know, what is this the way a thing should work now or could we just start from scratch and end up with something much smarter and much better? Because what I feel would I feel more than anything a lot of the time and this is like from at a at a at a at the most basic level of like how this operation system works to the level of these apps were designed in this way for this operating system. Therefore, they do these things that I think are really bad and wrong. I feel like the fundamental way that we interact with our devices has not changed. I mean, obviously the iPhone was the last big inflection point. And even that inflection point was still just a really small tweak from where we've been for like 30 or 40 years.

And I just wonder at what point we're going to be able to say, you know, let's rethink this. Like, what are we doing here in this space? Like, what are these things that we're interacting with? Why do they work the way they work? Why do we think that folders still make sense? And do they make sense? And if they do, why aren't they, why aren't they better, easier, smarter to use? Like, we've just been doing a lot of piece meal upgrading of these systems. And I feel like, so when I hear about a new computer, I don't give a shit at all. What I'd like to see is a new operating system. And I don't mean like a Linux, you know, a variation on Linux. I mean, that's a, that's the underlying part

of it. I mean, like's the underlying part of it. I mean, like the way that users interact with these, like, is there a better, different, newer, more fruitful way to engage with the devices we use? And I think the, I don't, I feel like nobody's even working on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, well, there's Google has, they're solving that. I'm solving that, right?

Well, they have it, but I mean, where is it? I mean, what is it? Yeah, I know, I think I think it just kind of looks like Android. I think a lot of people have been mean, where is it? I mean, what is it? Yeah, I know. And I think it just kind of looks like Android. I think a lot of people have been like, well, it's gonna be, we're just gonna, you know, the screen's gonna go away and the devices are gonna go away and it's gonna be, it's ambient computing and all this shit.

And it's like, yeah, I think that'll be part of it. But I don't think that's gonna be it. And like when you do things, when I do things all day on my computer, there's not another way, another place I can do those things. You know, I can't like, I can't like, like you can't, there's just things you need the computer to do.

It's not like the screen idea is not gonna just disappear. But I do think like, I just feel like I'm fighting with the systems all the time, you know? Like I don't feel like I'm in concert. I think there was a point, I remember, when OS 10 had matured a little bit, I remember a point where I was using, I'm like, this feels like there's something really fluid

about the way this system works, that they got right. They found some like, some user interactions that felt really fluid and right. And then I feel like it's just, they've gone in the other direction. I think the iPhone had a point, maybe it's almost its earliest point where it had this really fluid sort of like, it didn't ask too much of you and it didn't also give you too much. And so it was like, it felt very... Yeah, but then you get mad about the limitations. It's like that back in the world. Well, of course. Of course. And then the limitations get addressed by people grafting in old ways of doing things.

Like, like, let's be clear, the copy and paste methodology used on an iPhone or an Android device, it's not superior to copy and paste on like a laptop or a desktop. Inferior. It's inferior, like like on many levels. It's hard to like ground yourself in it. It's hard to know what it is. You're where the thing is that you're dealing with. Actually, Android has done something interesting where they now have a they have a clipboard that kind of keeps all of your copy and paste for a while. I've been using on my Galaxy S21 and it's actually, it's an interesting tweak.

But anyway, how the point is, so all this stuff is like, when are we gonna get to that next question, which is like, is this the best way or is there a better way? And I'm curious, I just feel like we could, I think everything that's been built up till now, and I mean including things like Facebook and Twitter and Instagram serve a very specific idea about the way

interfaces are supposed to work and they're not good. Well, in any event, let's go on over to our interview with Paul Ford because I think he's just arrived for it. And we'll be back in two seconds. Our guest today is a man who really needs no introduction, but I will introduce him anyhow, because contractually I'm obligated to do so, based on a very lengthy document that was provided to me

by the co-founder of Post-Slight, Nerd and Writer and friend, good friend, frankly, bet my best friend and the best friend of this podcast, Paul Ford. Paul, thank you for joining us. I think we should, I'd like to pull the curtain back just for a second because the listener won't know Tony R1 listener won't know this, but we've spent maybe about half an hour. Paul is joining us using the Linux. Is it a desktop? Is it a laptop?

Okay, good. All right, I'm glad we're going there right away. Just getting right into it. You don't want to talk about it? Is it a laptop? Is it a Ubuntu? It's like a system 76 Ubuntu laptop? It's so hard to get my disclosures right.

It's not system 76. It is Ubuntu 20.04 Groovy Gorilla. And I... I mean, the man, we've had many iterations of the beginning of this podcast. I'm not going to blame, I'm not blaming you. No, blame the Linux. Sound on Linux has been, you know, one of those things, it's a more complicated relationship than I have with my own children. Yeah, you don't hear a lot of like,

you don't hear like, you know, you don't see an interview with Diplo where they're like, how do you make your beats? And he's like, well, I fire up a Greedy Gorilla in Bootsu 20, what is it called? Groovy Gorilla, 20.0. Groovy Gorilla, I fire up a Bootsu 20. Listen.

Groovy Gorilla. And I load this open source, DAW software, which is like, let me just Google it, hold on, Ardor, Ardor, Ardor. Ardor, Ardor. It's what you're using. It kind of looks like a little bit of like a logic.

I'm recording an audacity now, which works great. Audacity. People love audacity. Open source, people love audacity. All you need is Audacity. Yeah. Exactly. All you need is audacity record your audio.

It's send it to to Ryan and Josh and the podcast get me gets me this wonderful. I'm I'm looking at audacity now and it's making me feel like very nostalgic for the not for Mac OS 9 on my on my Mac LC or whatever. You know, it's really is nine. You know, nine doesn't come in for as much love as it deserves because there's only around for about five minutes before Steve Jobs is like, yeah, no, we're going to be next.

Nine was the best. Nine was the pinnacle of computing. It'll never get better than that. So look, all the happiness. The Mac, the battery started to swell up. And I went, you know, I couldn't find another Mac that I wanted. And so I bought a desktop Linux machine for the pandemic, that's it.

I'm curious, you gotta have a project. Yeah, you have to have a pandemic project. And a Linux. I wanted some cores. I wanted to be able to compile quickly and process lots of PDFs. It was a dark time in America and I needed something special.

Hey, yeah, of the bad choices people I know have made during the pandemic, switching to Linux is really not. I'm not saying it's small. It's tame and understandable. It's something I could control, right? I think if you look at it in retrospect, that's how all good choices are. I agree.

It gives me a certain feeling. It's something I can control. And I know that I'm not using any proprietary software on my canoes slash Linux. I think that's wonderful. And I totally understand it. And you know, you've made your choice and you've got to live with that choice. Anyhow, an America's the lute. But all of America's currently so you have a poll. Let's get let's get hold on. Now it's been a long America's currently so you have a poll. Let's get, let's get, hold on. Now it's been a long time since we've spoken to each other. It's been a long time since you've been on the podcast.

A lot has happened. You know, there have been a lot of changes. We've got a, we have a new president. Yeah. You know, you can, you can now order a monthly delivery of nugs, the artificial chicken nugget. You know, NUGS really took, that was a long slot conversation at post-life work.

And it's NUGS, I tried to get NUGS through social media tweeting, because people were like, could you use your platform for something good for once? And we didn't get the NUGS, didn't we? I think they eventually came. And it was like, ate the nugs. And that was about it.

That's all I got on nugs, but. Yeah. Well, we got some nugs, and they're quite good. Your nugs, man. Fun fact about nugs, the branding was done at least partially by writer Rips, who is a controversial designer. New York and New York mainstay controversial design. Oh, is this company?

He had a company. Kanye West, and now York Mainstay, controversial design. Oh, is this company? He had a company. Kanye West, and now is getting married to his Alia Banks. Oh, wow. So, so that's a little, and she just recently, he didn't he just also redesign this CIA? That's a rumor, I don't think he actually did,

but I would say that, he's involved in a lot of controversy now. He was okay focus. I remember that. Yeah, it is a dark name. Classic stuff. Any okay focus is actually who did, is that the actual company that did the branding?

Probably. Yeah, they had a great website. I think it is. I don't know if they still do have it looked in a while. Well, anyhow, I saw the Nuggs branding and I was like, this is very good. This is unlike any other artificial chicken nugget that I've seen before. I have had so many and I own so many different kinds of artificial chicken nuggets that are spelled like

Tick N or whatever. And now I want to order some off the internet. So congratulations to them because I definitely don't need them and I want them. Yeah. You know, edgy branding definitely hits different in 2021. It's not used to be like, wow, wow, out there. And now it's like, uh oh, that's all I got.

Yeah, I think this is going great. No, this is great stuff. I'm glad we're in a deep conversation about the Nogga. Anyhow, so besides that, I mean, you know, you've been hard at work. You have this wonderful company post-light. You're doing a lot of great stuff. You apparently now work with on a day-to-day basis, my good friend, Michael Shane. I do.

Michael's great. Michael's a, who? Yeah, he's doing digital strategy for us. Michael Shane, who has been on the podcast several times, an interesting man, classically trained. Clarenetist. I want to say Clarenetist. been on the podcast several times, an interesting man, classically trained clarinetist, cloudist as I call it, played with the, I want to say Cincinnati Philharmonic, left his career to become like my assistant at the verge and the rest of history. No, it's definitely.

I came in this podcast to talk about Michael Shane. Definitely, anyhow, but fun guy. But now he works there with you. He does. He's great. He is unbelievable. He is in there helping us grow the company. Good, good strategy. Remind the listener what post light does again.

Oh, you know, we are a, it depends on where you're coming from. I think to the audience for tomorrow. I'm not going to listen to what Postlight does again. Oh, you know, we are a, it depends on where you're coming from. I think to the audience for tomorrow, it's a web company. We build platforms, APIs, like, you know, we do things like we power the screens. Our content management tooling and platform powers the screens that are all through the MTA system in New York City.

Stuff like that. We did the redesign for Air Mail for their website. We built that big content platform for Vice. We do stuff for banks, for not for profits. All that sort of kind of lower level, not, you know, we were talking about cool design agencies. We like to think of ourselves as really good designers, but kind of down to the wire and for the tech stuff. You're basically building the future of the

internet. I understand you don't want to overstate it. I'm here as a peer and a friend. But anyhow, beyond that, I just want to kind of level set here Paul, because it's been so long. I want people to remind to remind I want to remind people that you're not just the co-founder of Dippers, um, the you have other, the you do other things in life. Dippers is that our academic and we need to talk about our investment. It's not, we'll get to that. We're going to get to that, but I want to talk about, let's talk about the pandemic for a second. So, so, so tell me, give me your like, I mean, you've been, we've been living through this.

You're in New York. So you've been in, in a, in a, in a hot zone, you know, I guess everywhere's a hot zone now. Um, how have you been managing handling dealing with, I mean, obviously, we know Linux has been part of it, which I think is like a great distraction from the world. You have children? I do.

I have nine year olds. You have, yes, you have a business. Tell me, give me a little bit about what this last year has been like for you. Give me a picture of how you've been coping besides Linux. I want to hear, because we haven't talked about this. I want to know what you've been doing. I think just like everybody else, it's just like,

I wonder what the next week will bring. I mean, it's been really hard. And then also you just get this constant reminder of how bizarrely lucky you are if you are well and stable and financially secure. And so like it's been a lot of that. Like it's has it been a parenting nightmare? Yes, absolutely. I've been the worst father I've ever been in my life. Has it been a management nightmare? Sure, of course. I've I've made a zillion mistakes each one of which I'd love to discuss on this podcast for all of your listeners. I mean, a zillion mistakes, each one of which I'd love to discuss on this podcast for all of your listeners. No, I mean, it's just, boy, do you learn the frailties?

You know what it has done? It pushed us to reorganize and restart. Okay, so family-wise, ooh, cognitive behavioral psychology. Just like, okay, I'm gonna remain calm. I'm gonna talk to a shrink every week. I'm going to like, like, just, I'm sure, ever, you just, crisis therapy, therapy, big. I also started, has a talking to somebody

on a weekly basis, which I've not done pretty much ever and seems to be useful. Turns out opposite, opposite. I've done less therapy, but I did say the other day out loud in earnest without like realizing what I was saying. You know, I really benefit from routine like a dog. Yeah, I know that's right. And that's that's who I got. I got a guy, an older guy who calls me on on Thursdays at 2 p.m. And it's just like, did you remain calm? Okay. That's, yeah. We go from there. It's like, I don't think he knows that I have children

I don't think he knows that I have an inner life. We've never he's never seen me He just gives me a routine of behavior He's like well when you're angry that's because your expectations weren't met So what I would say is you should adjust your expectations Lower your expectations You'll be a lot less angry so you know you know, so on the personal side, right, like, I'm sure everybody, every relationship gets to experience a couple crises, it's very, very hard on little kids and so on and so forth.

And so, you know, taking it a day at a time, again, like, everybody I talked to about the experiences I've had is like, you know, like everybody's had, yeah, absolutely stupid, horrible fights with their spouses over nothing. We yelled at each other about yelling. You were talking about yelling. You know, and just like... I know, Mata, Mata argument is great. I mean, this is a completely insane...

I mean, not that we need to say this because everybody knows. I mean, it's like if you've been living it, it's obviously a deranged moment to exist in. It seems like a social experiment designed by the Fox Network in like 2003. They're like, we took this large population of people and told them they couldn't leave their homes. It's my hotel, I'm really interested.

Yeah, so that's, I go, go. No, I was just gonna say, I mean, I think, but what I end up doing a lot, and maybe you do this too, and maybe it's wrong to do. But I go, well, if this is the worst thing that happens to us in our lifetime, which like so far, it is for me. Like I don't, I mean, there are horrible things

that have happened, but when I think about like, a global event that has caused enormous amounts of death and has forced us to live in a way that's totally unnatural and ultimately untenable. And ultimately, the death is war. I know that sounds really reductive, but it's like 500,000 people died in America from this. There were civic failures. There's cultural failure.

There's personal failure that falls out that the only thing that actually leads to worst outcomes for humans than this kind of illness is severe natural disaster and actual warfare. So we're in kind of the big three of chaos. We're in one of them. Technically, we're in all three of them. Yeah, it feels like, but it's, you know, it's like that's the,

but that to me is the way that I kind of, I try to make sense of it all, which is, is saying, you know, this is horrible, but if this is the most horrible, at least that I can, I mean, it's not World War II. No, that's not. World War II was, you know, there's a reason why we all get so into it. It was unbelievably bad. Yes. I mean, and it was, it was obviously there's, there's huge death associated with what's happening right now. But like, my experience in New York, and in a lot, and many, many other people's experience, not everybody, certainly, is like, you're kind of like, well, I'm, but I'm just things aren't like, I'm still normal, like things are still like life is happening, like I still go to work, don't go in, but I'm still doing work and I'm still like, like, I'm a lot, I think, definitely.

Well, no, that's for some, it is for some, but a lot, I think a surprising amount of people who are like, I still play video games, and I talk to my friends on Twitter, and I do all this dumb shit that's like, ultimately, I still online I go you know I shop online I mean think of all the things you do I read a book at night whatever it is you're not in a situation where you're in like an actual burning building you're like nothing is normal here at all it's the weirdest thing about this experience to me is that so much of it is so aggressively normal yeah Yeah. And then it's like, it's like, you know, it's like a, you know, I don't want to cite black mirror, but it's like any great,

you know, it's a twilight zone episode where you're living in this house and you're like, everything is normal. Then you walk outside and it's the, the world has been leveled. It's weirdly, it's, you know, nuclear holocaust. You're baking two things have happened. And this is home. We should talk about work too, but at home, everything's gotten very wholesome and more traditional. So my wife is out of work, and she's doing more wife things than she ever did before, and I'm going to work and doing my work, and then we bake bread.

And they were prematurely old. That's the other thing that's happened. It's like, yeah, you're like home steady and you're like on the far side of the mountain. My that is a Easter Apple 2PM Apple time. Yeah. Yeah. Whoa, we got a new ones from the farmer's market, huh?

Yeah, I mean, just, ooh, I bought ice where it got a bottle of device. It came to the house. It is a, it's a 16 Apple slicer. You push it down and then you flip a little thing and you push a little more 16 slices, come off your apple. Thought about that for that I thought about my little

and stuff. Oh yeah. Oh no, so many new random things. You're like, you know what would be convenient? Why am I sifting the flour by hand? I said the other day in industrial. I was like, I used to fly to Paris and sleep with strange men.

And the other day, I got very upset because they didn't have the specific kind of paint I wanted to correct a small line I made in my bathroom door. And I was like, my day's ruined. I don't know how I'm gonna, I have to reorganize the list of it. And I was like, you know, I used to like go to Vegas. You know, I used to like, like,

we'd help you when you were old. We're just like, well, I should put on a shirt and do my constitutional. No, I was like, we were talking a couple of weeks ago about how the conversation about dinner has become, we're like, we're so fucking sick of talking about dinner. As there's nothing else to talk about for a day. It's like, what are we gonna do?

We get a order, are we gonna make a blue apron? Is it, let's make pasta from scratch like which which Laura did the other day? I was delicious, but like then you've got like the The every three to four weeks shop now, so you're sort of playing yeah, well, I don't want to go into town again Right, it's like it's like you live out. It's like you're like well, well, they couldn't get a flower at the old market this week It's like you live out. It's like you're like, well, well, they couldn't get flour at the old market this week. So my old horse salad lame leg. I don't want to go. If you didn't get it, if you go back with it, you miss something. You're like, I mean, it's got better now. You know, and then there, I remember, I'm going to go back into really moments where my wife is like, they were out of Diet Coke. And I'm like, were they?

Were they? Yeah. Or did you just not look up? And now I'm like, no, I worry, honey, we'll make our own diet, Coke. I remember the first time I came back from the grocery store. And I was like, near panic attack. Like, I don't remember where we were in the stage of this thing, but it was like, I was like, you don't under, I was like, Laura, you don't understand how fucking uncomfortable it was and weird and upsetting and like, everybody was just like, and freaked out.

And I like, I was like, I was like, I need a drink. You know, it was like two in the afternoon. I brought to the grocery store for something. Entering those scenarios is so surreal. And so, I mean, you're just constantly taking, like, well, who will care for my children if I die? Well, I guess I will go get some busy nuts at the store. Like, that's where your brain is at.

But it's funny because, as you said, World War II, it's a story that I think we're more biologically able to understand, which is like the bad thing contains a bad team and also, yeah, now it's not like incompetence, which like fuck Trump, obviously there are people with malice in the world. But for the most part, the problems today are

unpreparedness and incompetence. And it's like, you can't, you can't just like shake your fists at the sky. There's not like a lot you can do. Oh no, no, and this actually, and in fact, all the things that, you know do. Oh no, no, and this actually, and in fact, all the things that, um, you know, that people typically prep for, instead, it was like, you need to stay inside and have empathy. Like it was like literally, you know, big bird is telling you how to deal with

this crisis. And, and, and that was the optimal strategy. And then people were like, well, you said, mass, but not no, not you know, just like, well, just tell me, just tell me. Yeah, just say anybody, just anybody. Well, it does really feel, I mean, there is a feeling of like nobody really knows shit. And there's a lot, I mean, yes, people know things. And obviously, scientists and doctors should be listened to.

And they have been right. Humans, pretty much. But there was a design to deal with processes from other disciplines, right? Like it's, you see it when technology talks about journalism. They're like, wow, obviously from first principles, you should, and you're like, oh, you think you just put words in a box in a CMS? Why wouldn't you? Of course you would. Right, right.

So, we don't understand epidemiology. wouldn't know. Of course you would. Right. Right. Right. The, um, and so I, that, so we don't understand epidemiology. Like there's a whole, people have written PhDs on like, how to do good epidemiology. And we're like, I need answers. Yeah. No, I think, but also we had a, I mean, remember, I mean, not to, this should just be a trip down memory lane, but like, recall that there was a point at the beginning when it was like, mask, you don't need them, they don't do anything. They're just actually worse for you. They're more dangerous if you wear a mask.

Just make sure you use a lot of hand sanitizer. Yeah. We forget the period where it was all about hand sanitizer and like not cleaning and not at all really about masks. There was this, you know, it might have been a month or two. I don't remember how long it was because time has been stretched out like a piece of bubble gum. I can't do it with water anymore because everybody gets that signal and then they yell at everybody about it. You're gonna wash your hands and master stupid and you're like, oh, uh, uh,

used, if you wear sweaters, you're a monster because sweaters are made from human hair. And you're like, what the hell is what, where, and then it wants sweaters. Exactly. I don't even know where. Who's sweaters? My weirdest sweater? It doesn't matter. It's just like, people just piggyback onto whatever science

they think the newspaper told them, and then they become the enforcers of truth. Well, what gets me beyond that is even the people who are doing the opposite is what gets me. The people who are like, actually, tongue kissing is perfectly safe because there's this study that came out of Romania that says they have, and then they go around yelling

at people who are like, who are saying like, don't go to an orgy, it's a pandemic. And it's the open the movie theaters people from a couple weeks ago, which is like, no, that's right. That's right, you can have sex as long as it's outside. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, can you all just shut the fuck up?

Like the rules are not, like the broad strokes rules that we have come to are not of things in the world, not that difficult. It's not childbirth to not go to the movie theaters and an orgy after what. It's not just like, you know, that the utter need to lie nice and heroize anyone whose head appears on television.

So it's like, yeah, Dr. Fauci, oh, he's Jesus. Well, actually during in the past, he's been imperfect. Oh, no, what a hell with him. It's like, I know, Cuomo's either like, either like a sociopathic serial killer or really a leader of all time in New York. And it's like, actually, I think he's just like a mega maniacal asshole who's a little bit in over his head,

but is more competent than the worst person in the world. No, I mean, yeah, yeah, until some more news comes out. But yeah, we're all just riding that wave, right? And it's just, you're just looking at the talking faces going like, is that the one who saves us or is that the monster? And you can't, it seems like the brain after a few months in pandemic,

never particularly good at making that differentiation can no longer tell. Like it's just like, okay, it's talking again, and it's bad, it's awful. Like I think, and everybody, I think, and then everybody immediately gets into this other way, they're like, well, I'm above that. I'm a rational person. I'm a, I would subscribe to the Atlantic if their sign-up form worked I'm so tired of the Atlantic and it's no offense the Atlantic they do great work today

I'm tired of life. Did you do a lot of trans-album work? I'm just I'm not really We're gonna have to know how much they've done recently. Didn't they fire Jesse sing? I don't know how much they've done recently. Didn't they fire Jesse Singles? Oh, they, they, they, they, they tense. Are there other people there doing it? I don't pull infrastructure there. And they tend to repromote old work with like some shocking,

very strange, shocking timing. Very strange, but I found myself a very annoyed by, and I think there are people, the Atlantic, it's not a dish, not to try to dish them, but like in your points, very well taken. But like the, just the appearance of a Atlantic article about like, actually, here's why you shouldn't be washing or whatever it is, and I'm like, I'm like,

I don't, I don't wanna fucking read it, even if it's the most important information I'm gonna get about, about coronavirus and my, keeping myself and my family safe. I just, I'm so, it's like dinner. It's like how many times can I talk about it before? And I do think like at some point, I mean what we saw like towards the end of last year

was really a lot of people just going, you know what, I don't even care. Like just, let me die. Well, there's gotta be a line, right? And I want a breaking update about like, hey, the vaccine is working at 90% efficiency. You're like, amazing, that's great, that's a big news. But treated with the same level of, of,

of, of, of, of, both on Twitter and on cable news is like, scientists have shown in one small study that if you take zinc, and vitamin D, and probiotics in the morning, you can cut your cough during COVID infection by 2%. And you're like, okay, I'm not going to do that. So like cool. Our little brains can't do this much longer. No, we're tied.

We just listen to you guys talking, I'm thinking all the conversations. Like we're just under and overstimulated in a way that we weren't designed. Like, you know, you know how they say, you see more information one day than a person of the 1600s saw their lifetime. And it's like, maybe, maybe not. Maybe we just see, we probably get about the same amount. It's just been repeated to us 60,000 times a day.

It's just been, it's just been formatted into several, into several different styles. Exactly. Right. The information overload is real though. I think I do on on that point believe that there was something I know that I know that it was problematic and will be problematic to talk about to say well it was great when there are only like three newspapers and a handful of magazines and the nightly news because because at the very least, there was both time to at least for some of these people who were professionals and did this as a profession to like share information, to make sense of a story,

but also the amount of redirection and misinformation that you could even possibly get was highly limited. Well, what a give to 100 million viewers for your cable network is because then you can be very high-minded and ethical. It's tough if you're a really small website and like the clicks turn on as you make less sense. Yeah, I mean that's the thing.

I mean, incentives. I don't think it's just, yeah, go ahead. The incentives in the media industry are so weirdly twisted, right? Like it's just, we were going to solve it here on the media industry or so weirdly twisted, right? Like it's just We were gonna solve it here on the podcast and so let's we're gonna solve it with a grip. It's gonna be it's gonna be a little bit of crypto A little bit of a little bit of subscriptions a little bit of Not for a thousand a thousand not for profit has a billionaire funding it and a little bit of a little bit of patronage and then we got it everything that's really good news everything

that's bad about the media or everything that's bad about the world that person does at their day job but they're funding this out of the public interest that's right there that's it that is That is the perfect circle. That's where I live. I think you were all, at this point, at this stage of my career, I just live in the middle of that. That is my job. I'm at the intersection of destruction and creation.

Total meltdown. That is where I'm at. Yeah. But I do think that's it. But it's true. It is true that like it's hard to argue now that, well, I mean, it would be impossible to argue that we do not have more misinformation

and competing theories of what's going on in the world we're ever had. Look, if you actually read, it look, pick up a paper, read it every day, like a relatively middle of the road paper or even one with a little bit of bias, and you're in a pretty good place. It's the like eyeballs open, here we go.

And then, you know, everybody's arguing about this, so it's the most important thing in the world. What's wild is post-trop. I'm seeing people argue about things that they used to argue about, like, you know, interpretations of critical theory. And it just feels very surreal. It's like, oh my God, we've gone back to the old,

it's the same level of outrage actually. It's wild. Like, it's not. Yeah. Well, I mean, yes, I mean, there's just so much more to be outraged about though. And so many, so many new ways to be outraged. I do, I don't want to get into like this like, you know, reductive, a lot,ite view of social media and the internet. I do, I mean, I feel like we've talked about this before, maybe not. I don't, I don't, I don't know where you stand on it, but, you know, I was a person who spent my, a big part of my youth and certainly my teenage and young adult years telling everybody about the internet and going, this is going to change everything.

This is going to be the ultimate equalizer. This is going to create so many new opportunities. We're going to be able to do things you can only dream of right now. Thanks to the internet. I was like, so all in. I remember arguing with my dad when I was like 14 about, I had like, you know, been on some local ISP for a couple of years, you know, talking to people in Perth, Australia

at four in the morning, and I was like, this is the future of communication. My dad was like, it's a CB radio, and I was like, it's totally different than CB radio, and I was right. I remember when I opened her school in Africa, when I was in middle school, and I thought, what a waste of money,

just get them computers. The internet will have all information you'll ever need. Yes, yes, yes. No one wants to take God, they open some schools. You know, but like, but that, but, but I've gone 180 degrees. I'm like, why did we build the internet? This was a mistake. We have destroyed humanity.

We've destroyed society. We've destroyed our children and there's no putting the genie back in the bottle and and yet like some good deep down underneath way at the bottom of of the cesspool that i currently exist in is the feeling that the internet still could be great first but i've lost you know

list of list pages on Wikipedia, right? That's the like the one good thing that when God decides to destroy this thing, we're gonna be able to hold that up. Be like, look, it's a list of lists of subcultures or it's a list of lists of minerals. And he's gonna go, all right, I shouldn't destroy the whole thing.

Second of all, you gotta really accept in your heart that what social media did is, it's's not that it's not that social media The internet needs to be destroyed destroyed. It's really really obvious the humanity needs to be destroyed Well, I think there's no there's no question that that's the the answer the right answer and One that you know, I think this back into the box unless you get rid of all the people. And I really think that like, that's something Facebook is working very hard on. Based on their relationships with genocide,

I feel like they're actually one of the biggest and best voices that has brought a pro elimination of humanity. Just close. They've been indirectly acclient in the past like not not not. Okay, it's dirty nasty nasty stuff. Yeah, we should just transition on to Dipper. Sure.

I don't want to do just I want to I like the conversation we're having. I think Dipper says to happen organically. My big fear with Dipper is is there's so much hype on Dipper's Paul. You know, the Dipper's fans are so, they go so hard and they roll so deep that. Well, first of all, you know, there are people out there, I know this seems impossible to me, I know that know what Dipper's is as a chain concept restaurant.

You should tell me. You want me to explain the concept of Dipper's? It's weird because you make it sound like it's not a well-established and well-known, I know I do. I know. Dippers is of course a chain of casual restaurants that feature an enormous amount of dipping options for your... Dippers with the Z. You guys remember it. Everybody remembers it from the...

There was of course our most famous advertising campaign won several advertising awards jingle of the year. But but with the dip of course was illustrating our patent patented circular dip tower where you could you get spin it as a multi level sort of like if you've ever seen the

uh... david lynches dune uh... paul a traiti's fights a robot at one point that has a multiple rotating pieces that shoot out kind of little uh... stabbing devices and one thing is a flame thrower and there may be like a projectile anyhow the dip tower wasn't exactly like that but it did have multiple rotating elements. And just same kind of ethos. I mean, the thing that breaks my heart about dip rinks is here we were, we had the whole,

the hot honey sauce dip coming out with the vegan tofu crunchers. And the bread. Well, we had brought the brand, I think we should say, Paul, we had brought the brand back from the brink of destruction and bankruptcy. And we were, what was weird, I mean, because I remember when they sold it to the aluminum

holding company. That was a huge, that was a mistake. Shenzhen holding limited, I believe, holding is limited is what you're thinking. Yeah. We should not have cut the deal with Corona, the beer, the week that the virus began to spread in America. But we made a lot of mistakes as upper management of a large restaurant chain for the day. You know, here's the thing. I want to be clear.

I want to be clear. The selling point, the attraction, and the love was always about the dips. Don't forget, we were doing at-home home dippers which I think actually had we not become insolvent right at the beginning of the pandemic. The ad home dippers which is all aluminum based right it's essentially a you can unfold a dipping tower at home and then fill it with the dips if your choice obviously you would you would select one of the

seven to two dippers available in major supermarkets. I don't know what we got Sachi to put together the dip the kids. That was wonderful. I think it's got the dust coating on there. You know, we've made the marketing was never perfect, but the point is, and this is what we really are here to talk about, is that in 2021, America's coming back, America is open.

America's going to be open for business, and I think, and Paul, I don't know if you want to take this journey with me, but I think it's time to reboot the Dipper's brand for the 21st century. I'm going to tell you, crypto crypto backed dipping sauces, Billy Irish campaign, Billy Irish spokesperson, Billy is will be personally physically dipped into every sauce and then and then right green like that ketchup in the 90s. We're gonna do a collab with hot ones but it's cool ones and it's all of our coolest most the dipping sauces that actually cool you down following something spicy. It's so exciting. America

is ready to put its thumb and index finger together wrapped around a deeply. Whether your pinkies up in the air or down, talk to under you're the rest of your fingers, you're dipping. So I got to talk to you. This is a little bit of inside business, but we are not having a lot of luck. So the campaign came back and they're like, look look we want to call it the croc chain Croc chain that's I think that's brilliant Although crocs crocs not really that on brand for dippers considering the size That's the thing they want to have like a little hot little croc that's powered by a CPU that's simultaneously mining Yeah, different coins dip coins and then yeah, yeah. So like you're actually, you might at the table while you're dipping into the Fondue Pot style,

a little crock that is heating with cheese. Let me put my, you might hear a ding and get a crock coin. Let me, let me, I mean, I think motivating the dipper monetarily is huge, but I wanna say something, you know, I'm going to say something I want to get you're just unvarnished take on it, okay? Okay, okay, okay, okay. Micro-croc. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like a one, a one dip. Yeah, a micro-croc. A micro-croc where you just put it, you're like, one chain, micro-crack chain. One deeply fried protein nugget, air fried actually, and then you, with the new branding stuff, and then you just put it, you put it,

what, now the thing is, you kind of, can you get a full dip or is it a half dip, crock? I mean, the micro dip is a single dip. It's a half, I consider a dip to be half of the item. If more than half of the item is, that's actually become a garnish. You're then you're dressing. Yeah. It's a dress. No, that's right. Dress your garnish. You do not take it.

Take it to dressings with the Z exactly. Take it to garnishes with Z. That's right. That's bullshit. Anyhow, but look, here's the thing. But the reality of it is this. Dippers has been through some hard times, like all of the world has. Our business is absolutely insolvent in a state where we don't know if it's ever gonna come back. And the... Yeah, we're not just fast casual about our business.

I would say the one bright spot, and I think we should all recognize that Kevin and marketing came up with this was the party trough, which is all the dips in just a bucket you can pick up. You just you book it online and then you know, honestly, Kevin, I mean, you give Kevin credit for it, but it was a long standing discussion at Dipper's head HQ that could we, what would it be like if you mixed every one of the dips and it ends up it's black.

It's a black car like. It's, yeah, it ends up it's black. It's a black car like stuff. Yeah, it's the color is surprising. And I wouldn't say, I don't know that the test dippers weren't ready for it. But God is delicious. So when you taste the hot honey tofu meat mix with the ranch, the cherry ranch.

Cherry ranch, yeah. I don't know why we made it. It's just, you know, because it's like, you know, they say taste explosion, but then you realize like, I guess I have, because it's so incredibly laden with chemicals, which is another thing that we just, we leaned into it. I think it's an enclosed and that it, well, because you could feel it, it's like, it's all the way down. And then out the side of your mouth. Yeahosion and that it. Well, because you could feel it. It's like it's all the way down. You taste it and then out the side of your mouth. Yeah, you tasted in your soft.

I guess you actually continue to taste it in your stomach. And then the nerve endings in your hands start. It's it's a 360. The world's first fully artificial food. Does every part of it has been made in a lot of. It's so good. How you know what? Look, this fall,? It's so good. It's great. You know what?

Look, this fall, Dipper's is back. No, it's back. Dipper's is back. Dipper's. With the dip again. With the dip again. And this time, and this time, the dip will be largely virus free. And I think that's what we can finally retire those ads where people are feasts timing

with each other and just going, wheeep, wheeep. So grateful to Jeff Bezos for seeing this as the not-for-profit opportunity. This is the... Partnering out to us, The Washington Post. That's right. It should not be left unsaid that The Washington Post is not only a partner in Dippers,

but we'll be writing a series of feature stories about the rebirth of Dippers. And the Dippers native content strategy. I mean, we were, we said, what if Dippers? What if democracy dies without DIP? Yeah, oh, that's. Yeah, democracy dies without DIP. That was it.

That was it was they come up in the newsroom. You know, right before Marty Barron announces resignation. I just heard Marty. I've never seen a guy so gung hub about pursuing the Dipper story. He wanted to really break this open and we're like, watch their to break open, except for the doors to Dippers during the President's Day, Dipper celebration. That's right. And I think it should be said that if we're working on it, it's not finalized yet, but we think we can get a Biden, a Hunter Biden appearance at the, the Dipper's launch party,

which I think is going to be huge. Yeah, no, his rates have gone up. He's, he's about 180, 180, 180, and he already enough about Dippers, okay? Enough about Dippers. I mean, it's true. people have been clamoring for it and they want it and they want it bad. Let me ask you a question on the topic of food since we're on it.

I have, I have made, we've talked about dinner before. Do you find that there's any weird food habits that you've developed or that you've retreated to in the pandemic. I have a few, but I'm curious, has anything, do you feel like you've done something? You're like, I'm my life sucks now. So I'm going to do this one thing that I know I should eat this one thing or like, I'm going to do this weird thing I use to do when I was a teen.

Oh, there's a whole new set of folk ways around food in a pandemic. First of all, everybody has like a secret candy staff. We have so much candy here. I was a teen. There's a whole new set of folk ways around food in the pandemic. First of all, everybody has a secret candy stack. We have so much candy here. I never even eat candy. We have candy. Well, we have a child, so you end up with a little bit more candy, because your kids go crazy for candy.

Then you have to hide the candy from the kids. It's just like a whole thing. I was looking through and I found my wife's candy stash, and there's this mo, where you're like, I know that you just have this. I think it's like finding your teenage such pornography. Wow. Well, really, you're not gonna call a family meeting

like my dad did to discuss the cut out of Justin Timberlake. I kept it in my desk. Wow, did he actually call a family meeting? This is a much better time than you can do. Can you actually talk about this? Did he bring people into the living room or something? I ripped out a picture of Justin Timberlake from the newspaper, not that it was fully processed

that I knew what I was doing. I was just like, I really like this picture. I told him how old were you? Like nine, 10. Oh God, oh no. I didn't, I just put it in my desk and then I would take it out occasionally and be like, I like this picture, but I didn't know why. So my in my desk and then I would take it out occasionally and be like,

I like this picture, but I didn't know why. So my dad found it called the family meeting and he said, why do you have this? I really like the picture. And he was like, why? And I was like, I don't know, I like Justin Timberlake. And then we never really came to a resolution. That's not a family meeting topic. Also, I don't know.

A nine year old doesn't need to have that conversation. No, I don't want to tell your dad had a parent. I mean, you seem like you turned out okay. Oh, it was a big mess. I don't think anyone walked away from the whole situation proud of themselves. I just feel like if your kid is, unless it's like a picture of like,

you know, an autopsy or something, I would be. I wouldn't be thinking they handled it well. I think that they had seen a lot of 80s sitcoms and they were like, the the family's deal with things is they get in a room and they just talk. And that's not true actually. In fact, in my experience, that's absolutely not true. Now luckily my family talked about everything

but nothing at the same time. So there was never a breath of air allowed for even a serious conversation about anything. So we talked about other people's serious issues, and we would weigh in on their morality or whatever, but then when it came to us, it was all hot shots. We ignored anything that happened. Yeah, that sounds like a good mixture. I have nine-year-old twins, and by a transit property, it means that my children are going

to be incredibly sexually attracted to really blocky 3D microchries. Oh, yes. Like that? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Minecraft. Your kids are playing Minecraft? Zelda started playing. We had to cut it down to it.

So you know the wild thing is you can give them an hour. An absolute mind. Children do not know what time is. They have to say huge problem. What happens is that children have no concept of time. 20 minutes of Minecraft and we could get them off of it. And they'd be like, I was fun, I had a good experience. And yeah, I know, that's the pictures

that I'm finding in the desk. I wish my son was in the Justin Timberlake. Well, not now. Not now, Justin Timberlake. But at the time, it was all actually the thing he was in by- and buy by by and whatever both that Yeah, no he was durable. Yeah, I mean He's not yet still to understand that what that hair was

Hair we were doing a lot of weird science towards the end of the 90s And I think that's the hair that he had a just to really tear when he was an inch tank that ramen noodle hair Yeah, it was like it was like real tight curls, but like a color that doesn't appear in nature, they don't move. Well, also just like, you know what's weird is the imagery, like all the, because everyone was just trying to understand Photoshop,

still everything got saturated, like in a really specific 90s way, but then the people also appear to have saturated themselves, maybe in like reflection of that. So it's like, I mean, you like, you look at the spice girls makeup and it's not that it's even artfully applied. There's just a lot of it. There's like blue eyeshadow up to the eyebrow.

That's right, and it was very, it almost feels like they were trying to look like badly saturated, shot from a ladder in the 90s. Like, everybody's eyes started to get bigger and they'd hold them open more. Yeah, it was like David Lashapel and like What was that shoe brand Steve Madden really like that impact? Turns out all of it was bad guys I Turns out I'm glad to break up this conversation about Justin Timberlake, but there's breaking news right now Twitter reveals super follow

paid subscriptions to oh this is the idea what is it I don't know what it's 499 a month what is it it's supposed to be like patreon yeah okay hold on you're gonna hear it you're gonna hear my doc keyboard it won't super follow what is it what is super follow I don't think it's gonna be as good a Super Nintendo. They're honestly their presentation. I don't want to, I don't want to be this guy, but their presentation font kind of looks like input.

I like, like, it's like this, they're using like a ton of input, really inputty. This looks like our website. Interesting. It does a little bit. It will you, it will allow users reading from nine to five Mac dot com Which you know this is my home page will allow users to get exclusive content deals and community access to create For I do that. Oh, so it's it's it's it's up. It's an upgrade on that like newsletter thing in the Jake where you go, okay? like sub-stack Yeah, yeah, no, no, but they have their own I can can't remember. So Twitter, so just to be clear, Twitter had now encompasses

sub-stack, uh, a Patreon clubhouse, uh, Instagram stories, it's that chat. It's not one feature for 10 years. Not one feature, not one. And then it's like, we're going to double all what if we get all the features. That's right. That's right. Four years ago, they're like 280. A people like everybody was like, wow, wow. I can. Wow, Jack Dorsey, just, you know, literally laser beam his face. I can finally speak my mind on 280 characters, but now they're a full service provider of things that nobody wants. Everything is just a repackaging of Twitter moments. It's just like, we're all discussing Ross and Rachel.

It is, and the fleets are bad. I gotta give it to, but 9-5 Mac just drops a German tweet into the middle of the story, so it's like the super duper bond. It's like Twitter, Arbited on an under super follow function. Mid-term. Pop from the bottom. You're just into earth. Yeah. That's it. And you're just like, that is a bold move to just be like, here is some German in the middle

of our story. Good. Good job. I mean, why not? You listen, maybe they've got a large, very large German audience that you're not aware of but that it raises the question I need By the way, sorry, I need to stop seeing the sheep in my feeds I need to stop seeing the sheep with too much fucking fur or whatever Please stop tweeting pictures of the sheep it's making me it's making me physically uncomfortable to see the sheep

I want you to stop it. I'd like to have a filter that's built. Well, that's what Twitter is now. A variety of different rooms in which you have to interact with the screen. I need to go into the code and comment out the sheet picture forever is what I need to do. But anyhow, remember, you know what's so incredible about Twitter? Is they bought a company called Vine? And Vine, Vine was TikTok to be very clear.

What TikTok is. To be very clear, TikTok is Vine. No, I'm saying what TikTok is today that we see was what Vine was. And Twitter was like, they have such a lack of vision and understanding of their communities. They were like, you know, let's shut it down. Let's buy it and shut it down

and not even do anything with the technology whatsoever. It's insane to me, a company with such low vision. You realize that Twitter is in so many ways like the Twitter thing is so much like faith, the Facebook thing, which is like this one good idea that they've played out to it's like logical horrible conclusion and Now it's like you can you can pick between the only thing like Facebook the only thing Facebook can really do is to keep like Trying to steal ideas from other successful things or buy them outright to continue. It's like I'm gonna tell you

Josh, I know what we have to top stop talking about these social media companies and focus on what really matters, which is decentralized finance on the Doge channel. Okay, I want to do. Yes, Dogecoin, one of the many valueless items that we now ascribe value to just joining the ranks, the great ranks of the almighty dollar and diamonds. Except, except the dollar could end up as an object like gold and diamonds are physical. And the, and the coin, the bitcoins are simply a use of energy that creates a token that lives somewhere. And I am, I am concerned. We got it. We, Our industry needs some new subjects.

Like I mean, next, next we're going to talk about Clubhouse. We have to start. I don't want to talk about Clubhouse. No, of course you do. Are you on Clubhouse? Are you going on Clubhouse? No, I'm, first of all, I'm in Android. Oh, they don't have an Android app.

They don't have an Android app. No, no, no pixels on club house. But second of all, like, the reason the kids are running the company, please, God, just, let me, let me only screw two things up before I screw up the rest of my life on club house. Yeah, I mean, I, the thing with an app like Clubhouse is you have to have a lot of free time

to be able to listen to other people talk and I just I always think that who has the you got very I'm California does I'll say what happens to me is it's like it's eight 30 Zelda has gone to sleep I've been on these calls all day podcast zoom calls work calls whatever talking and talking and talking and I I just think, okay, my busy day, my wall to wall day of activity, of work activity is over now. Let me switch gears to what? To a fucking call with people,

with strangers who I have to perform for. I'm not saying it doesn't have use, but I don't know. It's very hard. I know, I know, I'm just, I'm not there right now't have use, but I don't know. I know. It's very hard. I know. I know. I'm just, I'm not there right now at this stage of my life. But you know what? Maybe if I was a younger, much cooler, more interesting human being. Yes. I'd be like, let me, and also, you know, you and I have audiences. We do. We get to, we go on podcasts, talk about our big thoughts. We're big. We're big. We're big.

It is, it is absolutely something we do. And I think this is a platform that lets you do some of that. And I mean, should we do it? We should do it. Oh, you and I, we're just only Deppers content too. We should, we should, I'll find an old iPhone. We'll make it work. We should just really get a space going on Clubhouse, the two of us.

I guess I can't dial you in, huh? I guess I couldn't put you, couldn't I put you on like, can I just bring you on a call? Oh, it probably have to invite me. I mean, I have an iPad, I'm sure it works. I don't know. You could, you could, I don't know. I really.

Let's just, you know what, let's not do that. Let's see, look, now the more we think about the more a bit but but to your point Why is there a friendship it can a friendship exists that doesn't produce content These days anymore should it would you want one it? like like Not even no not even like hooking up now It is really still content based because then you have to you know You have to tweet about it passive aggression aggressively when somebody says the wrong thing. Yeah, yeah

No, no, no, it all it's all content. It's all kind of commoditized like just you know Just the states of the relationship like looks like she's into you or wow never saw man get destroyed like Yeah, no, I it's true. I mean it is there is something like I don't want to be I so I we were talking about this before, but like how I've gone like full circle from being like, oh my god, the Internet is everything to we must destroy the Internet. The only way to save humanity is to blow up the that connect us on the internet and we will be able to survive. But there is, doesn't it feel like there is something that we have to that's going to, there's gonna be a shift. I mean, you say we have to talk,

I'll find other things to talk about. Isn't the next thing this shift, isn't there going to be a shift? Isn't Gen Z gonna figure it out that all this is all this is bullshit? No, I think look I think this is their existence and they just find utility in it, right? Like that's what I was gonna say. I don't think they think they think it's like an identity the way that millennials were like I'm like it's like a religious experience Well, what it was like but when Z is not digital. It just happens to be the background radiation of their lives

They'll be like oh cool. I'll use our table to organize my art. It's happening. Like that's they don't care. Yeah, I think millennials were like, I have to grow these numbers. It's important that my cloud score, you know, like fucking psychotic about it. But Gen Z people just seem to be like, I posted troll content to my 100,000 follower Instagram, which I'm deleting today. Like, they don't really, it's like it comes, it goes, it's whatever it is. Yeah, you know, it's all, maybe they just haven't entered the self-commodatized, self-commodatization stage of life, which seems to happen usually like right after college. It's part of adolescence, no.

Like I don't know. This is a big subject, right? Like, but I don't think they care. I think they're like it's all tools. It was always there They don't know that base camp didn't exist one day. They don't think that email had to wait Peace camp doesn't exist anymore No, it does it didn't know that it never did it did nixis Yeah to them Google maps is like something that came across came around at the birth of the universe like they don't I was like 11 before I realized that there hadn't always been TV and any fundamental level.

Like I knew it had been, you know, created and then it was an invention and maybe my dad didn't have it growing up. But like it just, you know, how do you process that? You can't. I can't imagine a world without television. Well, it's sort of like the telephone, I guess, in that regard. I never, I mean, I guess there was some awareness that telephones didn't always exist. I mean, I understand what you're saying, and I think it makes perfect sense, and I completely

agree with it, that like all the things that we think are special and new and exciting, and oh my god, this, you know, brave new world of communication is just like a thing, huh? Nothing was more profoundlyative, transformative, then like, well first electricity, and then second, like farmers could call each other instead of strapping up a mule, or whatever you do a mule, you strap it up. Right, I don't know, I don't think you strap up a mule.

I think you, I don't know what you, let's get strap out of there. I just have bad words in the car. I feel like if you're strapping a mule, you're breaking some kind of law. I don't think what you just let's get strap out of there. I said bad word yeah, yeah, I feel like if you're strapping a mule You're breaking some kind of law. You understand how I don't think you understand how they how mules work I think it's good pack pack a pack of mule pack mule is a thing You girdle your mule and go to the old male hot that's that's what they used to do and now they have a telephone The mr. Alexander Graham Bell personally install. I love the telephone. Yeah, that's what they used to do and now they have a telephone that mr. Alexander Graham Bell personally install

I love the telephone. Yeah, that's you can talk to anybody but you were younger Well, it thinks that the telephone. There's a world that existed be pre telephone. I Mean no, but it's something you don't think about like I I Remember when I was a teenager being like wait mom without the internet How did you look stuff up and my mom was like, I don't know, you called the librarian. And if they didn't know, you just didn't know. That's right. It was okay not to know things, which was hard for men,

but we got through it. And by going the wrong way. Oh no, not even possible. I still remember too, like if you'd like to make a call, please hang up and try again. If you need assistance, hang up, and then tell your operator. I mean, I mean, like this. Yeah. But the question is like, yeah, well, I don't know what the question is.

Honestly, this point, I think my brother called his friend shrink is calling me and just talking to his customer. I mean, it's not good. It's not good. It's not real. Okay, look, all right, we should wrap up, Paul, we've gone, I don't even know what we've talked about today. If we had a conversation at all, it's news to me But I think we did No, listen you have to come back. You've got to do it sooner than however long has been which is like seriously Maybe several years it's way too long. We love having you. We love talking to you I've been recording this podcast the whole time. I mean I've been listening. I started recording tomorrow when I still worked at Bloomberg So think about that shit. This is

tomorrow was my was my first the first inkling that anybody should have had that I was not going to stay at Bloomberg. This whole industry got in trouble while this happened. Wow. Wow. You did it. You did it. Josh, you did. You wrote the way. You're welcome. I also I think I'm partially responsible for the spread of coronavirus. I can't be sure. But it's possible. Well, it differs. My God, that's not getting that. The case is pending.

The spread's coronavirus. It is. It is. You're dining in a dip based environment. The dip sharing, the dip sharing program we had seems like it was ill thought out. Now, when I look back on it, that you would trade dips across tables between tables. Yeah, and the Valentine's Day promotion in 2020, which was like kiss the day. when I look back on it that you would trade dips across tables between tables. Yeah, and the Valentine's Day promotion in 2020, which was like kiss the day.

That was a mistake too. We made some health, some of the health, some of the ideas we had about how, you know, illness travels. I think we were just not thinking straight at the first. Yeah, but spit on the Nugge's campaign. Yeah. That was a bad one. That was a bad one. That was yeah, all right. I need All right, get out of here. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you, Paul. Love you love your show. Love you, man. Bye. Bye. Oh, I miss Paul. Paul is so great. And I can't believe it's been so long since we've talked to him.

And I can't explain that except, I mean, I guess I'm gonna blame the pandemic maybe. We didn't interview people for a while when things got real dark. So I think that that cow's is gonna just get a blame the pandemic right now. And that kind of get out of jail free for almost anything that's happened in our lives.

Yeah, no, it's been a crazy, it is hard to believe that it's been so long. It's been a year since my wedding. That's crazy. And we have never done any, like we just did home working all the time. We've never like done anything. And it's just, it's very strange because it's a, you know, that's an important time in your life. It's also like, you know, I didn't imagine it would go by so quickly, but just been sitting

at home cutting each other's hair occasionally. Yeah, I mean, that's, that seems not, that seems not so, it's been that long, you know, like, it's hard. I had no glimmer. I remember the day that I left to get, I left for the weekend that I was getting married. We had had drinks after work and I was saying goodbye to everybody

and I remember you were like, you sure you wanna do this? I said yeah and then you were like, Godspeed. And I left and I remember thinking like, when I come back I'm gonna be married and nothing in my life at that point led me to believe that any of this stuff was gonna happen. Yeah.

Even like the Trump being president, I was like, well, I'm confident I'll be able to go outdoors for the next year. Yeah, I mean, it ends up not true. It definitely, things definitely did not take the turn that we thought they would, I think. Nothing went the way anybody thought it would. You know, my crazy for saying that. Yeah, I think that's about right.

I mean, I feel like the world that we thought we were gonna have has just been completely taken off course. And we've- Unless you're Bill Gates in which case it's on course. Because you can finally get the 5G chip and everybody and use them as a tower for better 5G coverage. Which is what I assume people think he's doing or whatever, I don't-

But if that worked, I would be the low key down for that. You're like, wow, I mean, I'm microchip. Microchip at the connection is incredible. Actually, yeah, I don't know, should we wrap up? Should we talk about nice things? Well, since we're on a very not nice topic, a topic that's a huge downer. Let's go to nice. Let's go to nice things. I'm ready. Let's talk about it. Okay. I have been playing it came out a few weeks ago, but I finally like got around to it

because I played this previously. Super Mario 3D World is out for the Switch and it was on Wii U and it was a great game there and it's a great game here, it's wonderful. But I wanna talk about the little extra bonus that they gave everybody who purchased that, which was kind of like a half a game, a fourth of a game called Bowser's Fury, which was kind of like a half a game, a fourth of a game,

called Bowser's Fury, which is so delightful. And it is basically the future in my mind of Mario. It's like the breath of the wild was to Zelda is what this is tomorrow, which is a different, it's a different game. It's it's in the same game, but it's a different game. You know what I mean? Like they're packaged together. Okay. Like here, when you load up Super Mario 3D world, you can hit the little like right button, and it'll take you to another start button, which is for a different game, and then you go into that game. And if you don't, then you just go into 3D world. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I see. And so Bowser's Fury, it's sort of like Breath of the Wild in that like there's no overworld or like there's no loading levels, it's just you wanna go over there, go over there. You wanna solve that puzzle, you wanna go to that world,

do that. And you can just sort of start with the hardest Mario level of like 3D Mario. And if you don't wanna do that, you go to the other one. And it's definitely bare bones, like it's definitely a concept that they were, like it's a test for them. Because, you know, obviously they did what they did with Windwaker, which was like, they put it on water, because then you don't have to think too much about what's happening in between the different, like, level spaces.

It's just, you know, their islands. It's a very easy, you know, to take something from levels to islands is easier than taking it to like one unified Landmass, but they're getting there and and It felt it's just delightful and it felt new and fresh the way that breath of the wild felt new and fresh and it's very exciting because for a Such a saturated IP just like someone took that one idea of like what if this platformer was super weird, but very type controls and they took it in every direction we could possibly come up

with like there I can't imagine there would be new ideas and then there are and and it does meaningfully change the game and it and it's delightful and it renews my hope that like you know that things are getting too st, because sometimes I look around and I just, everything feels cyclical. I see these kids wearing baggy jeans again, and I'm like, okay, hey really? The baggy jeans are the thing that's the tip off for you. I mean, I look at that, and I'm like,

what we determined if that those look bad, and they feel bad on us, and they break easily, and they get dirty. Why are we doing this? Yeah, to you, to you, an old person. You know how long science worked on the skinny gene and now you're just gonna throw it out. But to youngsters, it's, you know, it's, that's cool.

That's cool and that's hip. I like it. Well, when you catch me in my ultra low rise, belly hugging genes and my, you know, my, my Zubi's top and my colored sunglasses. You tell me that I've gone too far. Well, I'm looking forward to being able to tell you that you've gone too far. Anyway, my nice thing is Bowser's Berry.

It's a great fun, good time. It's not your nice thing, see, it went dark. That's how we're living. I'm going to hate it. I'm going to hate it. I'm going to hate it. I'm going to hate it. That's how we're living. I'm going to hate it. It's baggy. Also, I'm getting vaccinated this weekend and I'm fucking stoked about that because everybody who has pre-existing conditions like comor-bibbitities in New York, I have like three or four friends that have immunosuppressed and so they haven't seen anyone. It's not like they can be like,

oh, I'm just going to a barbecue and you know know, I'm just gonna see my pod of people. Like they really can't chance it. And my friend and I are both getting vaccinated and she sent me an email for a proposed time to come over and record her podcast. And I was like, holy shit, we can do this in person. Like that's, it's delightful. Well, you're supposed to wait.

Aren't you supposed to wait here? Yeah, yeah, we're both waiting the like, the month or whatever. But then you can't just freely do whatever you have to wear a mask and still Right, you still have to take but if you're both vaccinated, you give yourself a hug and sit on the couch, you know Yes, I mean the it I mean the vaccination is going to greatly lessen you know things that You would be concerned about not that you would be concerned about, not that you don't take precautions. But I, I mean, I'm very excited about, I hope that I can get a vaccine soon. Obviously, I don't want to cut in any lines. I'm waiting, you know, to whenever my doctor

says it's cool for me to do it. But I'm excited about doing it. I want to do it. The thing about the vaccine that is like, is very true, is it really is only going to work once everybody has it. Like a lot of people have it. I mean, it's good for more people to get it because that's how we arrive at that. But it's not like the vaccine. I mean, it gets us the thing that's like the hard reality of we're used to vaccines for things like the flu vaccine, where, which also, by the way,

the vaccine seems to be less effective for things like the new, the coronavirus vaccine is much more effective than flu vaccines, for instance. But we're used to a world where kind of everybody gets the flu vaccine and also the flu doesn't kill you when you get it for the most part and it doesn't kill most people. And we like have lived with it for a long time. But this is like, we're starting from scratch. Nobody has any vaccinations. Nobody has any immunity to it. And now we're going from day one and we're trying to get to vaccinated, the vaccinated state, you know. And that I think that it's a big lift. It's going to take a long time. But my grandma's vaccinated.

My my entire family except me is vaccinated. I will soon be vaccinated, which means that we can road trip, presumably, to my grandma and see her and spend time with her at the very last years of her life. And that is such a gift that we haven't had. And something that we took for granted, because we didn't go visit her enough when we had the option. So that, you know, things getting a little bit better is so much better than them saying the same or waiting for some magic wands to come, which isn't coming. So if I can just do iterative little steps towards some normal stuff, then that's great.

Yeah. I'm thrilled. Yeah, I agree. I guess I should talk about my nice thing. Sure. I guess I should talk about my nice thing, sure. So my nice thing is, you know, I got pinged the other day by someone who was compiling from a record label

who was compiling like a playlist of old techno songs, like trance records, and they're like, oh hey, I didn't realize you used to make trance music, do you have any suggestions? And I started pouring through like 90s trance records and they're like, oh hey, I didn't realize you used to make trance music. Do you have any suggestions? And I started pouring through like 90s trance stuff that I DJed and 90s and maybe some a few early 2000s things. And like, you know, I was making all these suggestions. And I was like listening to it and I was like just thinking some of this music is really cool and weird. And like, I haven't listened to that kind of music in so long You know, I used to DJ, but that was like another lifetime and I used to produce that was another lifetime and

and It was just like it's been so interesting to go back and listen to that stuff with new ears and I think like I do think there's like We're maybe getting to a point now where everybody is all the people who like live through that are now old enough that they're nostalgic about it. I wasn't really feeling particularly nostalgic about it, but it, um, it made me kind of plum the depths of nostalgia that I might have otherwise like not done. And I have to say like it was very. It's been very satisfying to revisit it and to listen to it and to think about, you know, what it is and what it, what it, what it sounds like and how the music worked with a new kind of new set of, of years. And so I've just been enjoying that and, and maybe once this playlist is made by this, by this record label, I'll share it with the world. I'll, I'll tweet about it or something. But yeah, it's just been a fun thing I'm doing

and it cost me zero money, although I did end up buying a record because of it. And that does happen every once in a while. But you know, it's like free to do and highly enjoyable and no one gets hurt. You know of, I hope no one's getting hurt. Well, one thing I found that's really interesting and I think this is like an un very unaddressed reality,

which is like a ton of stuff records that I know that are like these records are so awesome. You can't find them on Spotify. You can't find them on Apple Music. You can really only find versions of them on YouTube and they're usually pretty low quality. And like there's a whole sea of music, just a entire lifetime of music that is not available on the internet. And anything that's a whole sea of music, just a entire lifetime of music

that is not available on the internet. And any of you can just go on. This is why I'm so crazy about emulators and FPGA and retro stuff because I realized that this is the thing that it's disappearing and it's important that we keep things like this from disappearing, these art forms, this stuff, like the digital jump was super great and now things will live forever in the cloud.

But there's stuff in the margins of the last era that isn't getting preserved and no one's thinking to do it. And nobody ever thinks to preserve culture or preserve artifacts or preserve art because we take for granted that it's like right there. You know, you're like, I don't why do I need to get these 18 songs on Spotify? Why does Alia need to be on Spotify? And it's like, oh, but because without putting it there, it will never enter the minds of most people. Now. Yeah, that's exactly right.

I mean, so it's very interesting. There's work to be done there, and I'd be interested to know what the plan is for that work. I feel like Google Books like Project. Yeah, yeah exactly well, I was reminded that This I've probably talked about it before but this artist Corey Archangel took part of my collection of old trans records and he turned it into an installation where he cataloged Every one of the records and made like a listening station where you can listen to all of them

And like each one is like painstakingly photographed and cataloged. It's a really crazy thing. But like, there should be some digital version of that for all of this stuff. And it doesn't really exist. And obviously there's like a huge question about the copyright and the- We need to legal figure out-

We have to figure out loopholes for like preserving stuff with copyright. You know what I mean? Like it's absurd that like a video game from a company that was sold and broken down for parts and then the IP was sold over here but the rights to the actual single game are at a different company

and that company is part of a Chinese conglomerate and thereby, they're by, governed by international. And it's like, but can I just have the ROM for this arcade game? Like I'm not asking you to solve the issues of capitalism and globalism. I just want the ROM.

Like why is that not legal? Yeah. I would like to pay for it. I'll pay for it. Like, we have to figure something out. And I think the answer is definitely blockchain. Just kidding. We haven't seen it yet.

I mean, well, I mean, it might end up being a part of it, but we certainly haven't figured out digital archival, for lots of different things, there's not really a good system of archiving that exists right now. And YouTube is a deeply perfect system. I see a lot of people be like, everything's on YouTube. Yeah, YouTube is very imperfect and way to beholden to a corporate sort of structure that isn't aligned with archival.

They're aligned with, you know, compression and advertising. Yeah, exactly. All right, let's wrap up. It's been a long one. It's been a crazy day. I got to go. A lot of work to do. Got to, got to do some dippers contracts.

You know how it is. Bye. Bye. Bye. As I show for this week, we'll be back next week with more tomorrow, and as always, I wish you and your family the very best, though I've just been informed that your family has been whipping the dip well into the pandemic, so all bets are on.