Tomorrow - 237: Dave Chappelle poked you. Poke back?

Episode Date: October 10, 2021

Hello, podcast listeners! This week Josh and Ryan discuss Dave Chappelle's terrible, horrible, no good, very bad stand-up special, the extremely scary Facebook news, and celebrate the start of spooky season. What is a man? Nothing but a miserable little pile of podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow, I'm your host Joshua Tupolsky. Today on the podcast we discuss Simon Belmont, Richter Belmont, and Trevor Belmont. I don't want to waste one minute. Let's get right into it. Alright, well here we are for back. Now we should say we missed last week's episode because Ryan died. He died. He died. He was legally dead for 15 minutes and then I gave him mouth to mouth and he came back to life.

Not because the mouth to mouth was successful because I'm a great kisser. I don't know what any of this means. But you had a kidney infection. Yes, but yeah, I'm feeling better now. I've been on antibiotics. We're all back in action, so it's good to be back. Okay, good. I wasn't, I didn't want to stop talking, but I had to clear my throat because we're in,

I don't know if you know this, but it's October. Is this our first podcast of October? I think it is. And due to your bad kidneys. And as you know, October is the best month, in my opinion. Now I like the summer. A lot of people don't. I know a lot of people. I'm surrounded by people who are always complaining

about the summer. But I like it. I enjoy every season for like a month, but summers the one I get sick of the summer. But I like it. I enjoy every season for like a month, but summers the one I get sick of the fastest. Yeah. I don't feel that way, and yet I can understand why people do feel that way, but a lot of people love the fall, and I love the fall, and I think it's

the greatest season. Yeah, but the best one. I think it's the best season, but I also, I mean, to me, summer and fall are equal. You know, spring's pretty good too. I'll be honest with you, the only season I don't like is winter, and I really don't like it, and I have no interest in it, and I'm, you know, I'd be happy if I, it was like, we get one day of great snow, and then that, I'm good.

Like I feel like I can, you know, I don't mind getting cold, to be honest. I do mind getting shitty, which it often does now, where we live. But, sorry, this is actually getting to my point about throat clearing. But anyhow, as soon as October hits, I'm like dry, so dry. I mean, everything is just, the moisture

is just sucked out of the air. I have like my throat is dry, so dry. I mean, everything he's just, the moisture is just sucked out of the air. I have like, my throat is dry, I'm coughing, you know, I've lost my sense of taste. You know, I'm sure it's nothing, but no, it's like, but I'm very dry, my lips are very dry. I was, I tweeted last time, I was like, I know it's crazy, but if I could have one super power, it would be to conjure a tube of lip balm, no matter where I am. Because it's true, like all the time I'm sitting, like I sit down, I'm like, I'm gonna play a video game.

And then my lips are just dry. I'm like, oh, if it, my lips are so dry, I need to moisturize. I like that all these people on Twitter, like just stop using it and you won't need lip balm. It's like, dude, I stopped using it in all through the summer Okay, like I wasn't Balmain and then it got dry and now my lips are dry like I don't know what's going on like I don't think it's my

diet I'm sorry. Have you considered a humidifier? Get out of my fucking face with that humidifier bullshit Okay, if I want to be in a steam room, I'll go to the local bathhouse, anyhow. But, but yes, so I'm very dry, but it's also October. And October's a great month for lots of different reasons. One is it's my birthday month, which I'm not a big fan of birthdays, but you know, whatever.

It's Halloween, it's the month of Halloween, it's spooky season, as we'd like to refer to it, which is Halloween is in my opinion the best holiday because it's the one holiday where you can be someone else, which is my great dream in life. And it also, it's the fall vibes start to kick in truly and you start to see the leaves turning. And anyhow, so it's very nice all around, very cozy, but it is very fucking dry. And so if you notice that my voice sounds like it's been strained through a squeegee doubt or whatever, then that is the reason. I'm trying to drink coffee, but I don't think it's having much of an impact.

I feel bad for Tony right now. He's got to hear this. Does my voice sound bad? I feel like it does. You definitely sound different, I don't know if it's bad. I don't know if it's like parsley. The coffee is younger than grace. I'm sorry.

Maybe I'll edit that out. I mean, no one will hear that. Oh, I'm making it louder. Please don't. Please don't. Anyhow, it's been an interesting week. We've had a lot going on. We've had a lot going on.

We just relaunch mic.com, which is a website that you may remember and or may not. But anyhow, mic.com, which is like 10 years old, which is insane, is a website that has, I remember many years ago going like, you know, just thinking, Mike is not the kind of website that I'm interested in. And I'm, you know, like way before this company,

the BDG that we work for, bought it. But, and then it kind of like crashed and burned and it's kind of, it's very spectacular fashion, was that you would might say a model Example of all of the things that are wrong with with venture capital and media, although we will get into that in a little bit Because I want to talk about Aussie I don't think which I don't think we've talked about in the podcast yet Okay, okay, I get a lot a lot to say about Aussie

Aussie right now Tony's like, what is Aussie? Hey, you know what, you and every other person on the planet. But anyhow, but so Mike was acquired by BDG before we came to the company before they acquired the Outline Independent Media. And so we've spent the last, you know, certainly the last year or so, kind of like figuring out like what is the future of this site and it's run by Shante Cosme, who's an amazing editor in chief.

Anyhow, go check it out, Mike.com. It's a whole new world of content. And I think it's pretty goddamn great. So, and I feel very proud of it. And I think it's really like something very different and something very needed in the media landscape anyhow. So go check it out.

But I've been doing that. We just launch Galker and then obviously we have input and in-verson, all these other things going on. But it seems like, I don't know. I've launched a lot of websites. I feel like when it comes to launching websites, I'm very good at it and I know a lot about it. And actually there really aren't that many people

who do it that often. And so anyhow, if you need to launch a website, I'm your guy, just talk to me. But so I've been doing that. And then it's been, the kids are back in school. I only have one kid, but the kids generally, it's we're getting into fall movie season, which is a little bit

different because, well, I don't know, I guess everybody's now, I see these ads and people are going to the theaters and they're like, oh, like, what's the movie with, you know, what's the last Marvel movie? Shanky. Yeah, that's done bonkers business. Yeah, thanks for not shung, Chi. Am I, am I crazy? I think it's Chiang Chi. No, I don't think so. I'm not in that next, but I also haven't seen it because I don't. It's definitely Chiang Chi. I don't know. At any rate, did I just make that up?

At any rate, it's, maybe I did, it's possible. But I haven't been to the theater because, you know, I'm still sort of making sure I don't get COVID trying to not get COVID So I just don't go to crowded indoor places even though I think it's fairly safe now with people wear masks and stuff but Dune, Dune apparently is people love Dune What am I talking about? I don't know what I'm talking about anyhow.how, there's so it's- All movie season. All movie season, right. And then there's other stuff happening. There's a new Batman movie that we're gonna get a new trailer for pretty soon in two weeks.

I'm excited, I don't know. It's our, I'm like so tired of content. I mean, everybody's saying about Squid Game. Squid Game is a Korean show that is a Netflix-produced Korean show that has captured the hearts and minds of all of the content viewing public. And I'm sure it's good. I mean, I don't even see it,

but I'm inclined to believe that it's good, you know? But, and I think we've talked about this before, I also think a major factor, like I wanna talk about the sopranos for a second, but a major factor of Squid Game being like the darling content conversation right now is that there really isn't a lot of content. There still isn't the way that we had the kind of flood of content. If you go back a couple of years ago, there really isn't

that much. It's kind of like every few weeks or of years ago, there really isn't that much, you know? Like, it's like, it's kind of like every few weeks or every few months, there's one thing that everybody's watching. And I don't think it's just purely because it's so fucking good. We were talking about this with the chess show. What is it called?

The Queen's Gambit, yeah. Like, and I'm not saying that Squid Game is the same, it may be better. Again, I haven't seen it, and I'm sure that it's very good, and I believe that, I believe you, I don't believe you're lying about Squid Game being good. That would be very strange, but I do think there's a thing going on

where people just have a lot less stuff to watch right now. And so, and we've watched all the other stuff. And so we're kinda like, all right, you know what? We're gonna love Squid Game. The proof of this is that everyone hated nine perfect strangers and we all finished it. Cause we were like, yeah. Yeah, I mean, okay, and that's like Hulu.

So that's, you know, that's like the third, fourth tier of online content, you know. Well, if you haven't canceled Netflix yet, who are you? Well, I haven't canceled Netflix, but I am. I'll tell you what, and we have to talk about this. I am gonna cancel my, what? You definitely should. What, canceled Netflix? Yeah what, and we have to talk about this. I am gonna cancel my, what? You definitely should. What, cancel Netflix?

Yeah. Why are we canceling Netflix now? Yes, we're all canceling Netflix. Why, what do they do? Because of Dave Chappelle posting extremely transphobic and homophobic hour of comedy. That was just like so bad. Recently?

Yeah, that was yesterday. And oh, like his new thing is out? Yeah, and it's bad, bad. Like really? Okay, hold on, hold on. I wanna talk about this. I think I'm sad. Okay, I wanna talk about that.

I do, because I'm interested in that conversation, but I wanna just round out this point. Okay, this point that I'm making. Because I wanna just draw, I'm bringing it back to the sopranos for a second. So, anyhow, everybody's kinda like, yeah, okay, Dave Schipel, good example. Everybody's watching Dave Schipel. I mean, everybody watches Dave Schipel anyhow, but...

So Squid Game, everybody's talking about it. But then last week or a couple of weeks, the last few weeks, everybody's been talking about the sopranos. And there's this article in the New York Times magazine, which is like, why everybody is watching the sopranos? And it's like, okay, first off, the article is, I mean, there's a lot of problems with the article, but let me just say,

it kind of is like, why, how the sopranos is about the fall of America, about American decline and how it's about capitalism and blah, blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff. And it's like, okay, and that's why this generation is like tuning into it. These young people are tuning into the superannos and realizing that it's commentary on Gen X or the boomers or whatever. It's like, yeah, but it was always commentary on all that stuff. Nothing about that has changed. And it's like, it's like,

we cannot ignore the fact that the sopranos is part of a billion dollar, multi-billion dollar push from Warner Media to create a Netflix competitor called HBO Max. And one of the few things they have, oh, they have a handful of things, but one of the things they have is like some of the greatest prestige television from HBO Which is like of course that's going to be heavily promoted and push now I guarantee you so that the creator of the sopranos made a a prequel movie to the sopranos called the many saints of Newark, okay about Tony soprano as a teen or whatever now I'm willing to bet

dollars to donuts of which I have neither by the way. That David Chase, the creator of the Soprano's, was paid enormous sums of money to do anything related to the Soprano's because they're like we just need to make this relevant again and we need to have the heavy hitters in here because we really want people to subscribe to our streaming service that competes with Netflix. But, like, so we shouldn't pretend that it just bubbled up out of nowhere that the sopranos was suddenly in the conversation, but also going back to my first point, it's just not a lot of stuff to watch right now. Like we're not producing as much stuff as we used to because there's a pandemic and there has been one for like two going on two years. And so it's like we're

not living in the same reality that we were living in a couple of years ago. And I feel like people, it's a convenient thing to ignore for people that that is the case. Anyhow, I just want to make that statement. I haven't seen the new sopranos movie because I hear it's very bad. And, you know, not surprising. It's fine. It's just not the sopranos. It's just like a movie. And I don't know the James Gandalfini's son was the person to play James Gandalfini. I think it's a clever bit of casting. I'm sure he's a fine actor. I don't know if he's good or not. I mean, I'm sure he can act.

Presumably, they wouldn't put him in if he could act, but... I felt like with three days notice I could cast someone to be a better James Gandalfianny. And that's, you know, it is what it is. You don't always get all your parents' traits. It just didn't feel... It felt more like for the press release. That's what I'm saying. This is my point. It's like a generation of... You want to generate this kind of noise because not for some vague reason, we have a great piece of art we need to share with you. I don't think David Chase was sitting around going, like, God, if only somebody would give

me the money to tell the story of a young Tony soprano. I think he was sitting around going, like, I'm working on some new shit or I have some other project or whatever and they're like, how much will it take to bring Tony soprano back from the dead? You know? and he gave them a number and they said yes and then I then they made the movie I think it's an it's an act of capitalism far more than it's an act of art and anyhow I'm not complaining about I'm just saying like let's let's be aware of all the things that we're doing in reality here like any people are weird about this the pranos though. I feel like every month there's a viral tweet that's like, there hasn't been a good television

show since the sopranos. Everything is a pale imitation of the sopranos. And it's like, yeah. But if I was a TV showrunner, I would simply create a one-sit-a-generation sensation that came at a perfect moment in history by a network who took a chance on a complete artistic vision with some of the best actors that I've ever been born. Like, yeah, I guess I would make that if I could, but like listen, can we all come to madmen was pretty good.

Let's all come. No, I like, no, people are like, oh yeah, these other shows don't hold a candle to, now I will admit there are certain shows that are just there's certain pieces of art that are just better a better you know repeat viewing or whatever than others but yes it's there's lots of there's lots of great stuff that a lot of people haven't seen that's the other thing is that you know we live in this now this continuum of of accessibility to all content like like there was a time when if you wanted to see, and they're still, I mean, I, I, uh, for better or worse have, I still occasionally run into a situation where I'm like, boy, I really want to see this thing, but there's no way to get it. Like, you

can't stream it. You can't download it. That was me with the me with the Torrent. With all that jazz. I wanted you to watch all that jazz. I didn't have to buy a blue ray DVD and giving it to you, because there's no other way to watch the movie. Right, exactly. But, you know, anyhow, but the point is that we kind of live in this era

where obviously all this stuff is accessible. So it's a very different experience. If you want to just like check in with the Sprano's one day, it's not like it will give you to go buy a box set or like a rent it from blockbuster or something. You know, it's like very different. Anyhow, tell me about what's going on with Dave should help because I watched the trailer. I had no awareness.

Maybe I missed the date on it, but I had no awareness of how soon it was coming out. I was kind of like, you know, I was sort of like, oh well, I'll check that out whenever it's available. But I don't look at Netflix every night, so. He spent a bunch of time working out, like he wanted to do content about trans people. And he tried a bunch of different angles at different clubs. He's done this before.

He's done it before. Oh, he got some Motana press and it's after that. He did, but he did a whole thing where like, he did a whole thing where he had some like really transphobic stuff and then he did a show, another show that where he like talked about the reaction to the transphobic stuff, you know, which, which I can't remember if it was like better or worse or like did anything or had any effect, but I just remember it being addressed in one of his shows. He tends to do things where it's like a rhetorical trick where he'll be like,

well, I'm talking about trans issues because people don't care about black issues. And it's like, those are separate things. Like, wait, what? There are black trans people. What are you talking about? Like, in any event, he has something about trans people

really bothers him and and he has declared himself a proud turf he says he supports jk rowling he taught he talked shit about people's genitals like it's it's it's really bad it's like really out there and there's really no defense for so he So he's, so he's, so he's like literally says that he's a turf. Yeah, proudly. And what, and what is the, I mean, obviously he's like, you know, it's a bit of some type, but like what is the, I don't think I gotta watch it,

but what's the explanation? No, here's the thing, here's the thing. He used to do it as like a, I'm a little stinker. Like this is what my friend Jacqueline, who works, who worked at Netflix and now will no longer work with them as an executive producer. But she said he used to do his trans bits in a way where he was like, I know I'm not supposed to say it,

but I said it. And it's like, that's still bad. But now he's doing it from his like, I'm Dave and I've got some wisdom to share for you. Here I'm gonna blow your mind. Right. People care about trans people and they shouldn't. And you're like, this isn't a joke. Like there's no bit here. You're just telling us your grievances with trans people. Then he ends up by saying he knew a trans woman who killed herself.

And that's why he can't be transphobic because he liked her. And it's like, this is what are you talking about? It's not the bar. Okay, I got to reevaluate everything I've been doing. I thought that was it. because he liked her. And it's like, this is, what are you talking about? Is that not the bar? Okay, I got to reevaluate everything I've been doing. I thought that was it. I thought as long as you could make that claim, you could say whatever you wanted. You know, I think it's interesting,

like, listen, I do think there is a space, there is some space in comedy in particular, but also just in general to have a conversation about like, what's acceptable to say or where, you know, what is funny and what isn't or whatever. Like there's lots of great area. But like go right ahead and make trans jokes. There are so many funny things to make fun of about trans people.

Like who voluntarily, like literally someone tweeted this yesterday, who's volunteering for multiple puberty? That's very funny. What isn't funny is like you're disgusting a demand and I hope that people do violence against you. Like what are you talking about? That's not a joke. I mean, I'm just like, I'm reading through the commentary

on Twitter, which I guess like he has a bit about Twitter or whatever, like he's like, you know, Twitter's not real, so I don't care what people say on it, which you know, listen, to his credit, to some degree I agree with, I mean, like social media shit is insane, but like then it's like, I mean, like the, I mean, listen, but just because you don't know

any queer people doesn't mean that we only exist on Twitter. We're all real people behind the accounts. You just don't wanna know us unless it's through a layer of obfuscation where you can keep it out of remove. It's just people on the internet. But like, if you don't know any queer people in real life, that's on you, dude. There's like a lot of us. Yeah. I mean, I think it's also like, you know, obviously, whether or not like he is, again, I haven't watched it. I'm just looking at some of the commentary and listening to what you're saying. But whether or not he is, again, I haven't watched it. I'm just looking at some of the commentary

and listening to what you're saying, but whether or not Dave Chappelle is actually a turf or thinks it's a way to get a laugh or really cares about this conversation or again, is playing the conversation for laughs. It's like, it is one of those things. And listen, maybe the goal here, maybe the goal is not to give him any credit,

but like Dave Chappelle's like, listen, whether or not I believe this is kind of irrelevant, if I say stuff about this community, there will be very vocal people in that community who'd start to talk about me and talk about my show. Let's just be like, let's be really cynical for a second, okay? No, of course, I think this is a highly important thing to talk about it.

Let's say Dave Chappelle doesn't actually have an opinion on the matter one way or the other. Oh, I think he's, I think this is a higher really about it. I think it's a 10-trend. Dave Chappelle doesn't actually have an opinion on the matter one way or the other. Okay. Oh, I think he's, I think you definitely have to, it has to start with a seed of transphobia. Sure. Okay, but I'm saying there is an element to this, and again, I'm not defending,

I'm just trying to kind of think about like where this comes from because there's lots of stuff. There are lots of targets, right? There are many great targets. But I do feel like in this case, you know, I think it's like, he keeps going back to this area. Now, is it transphobia? I mean, personally for him, I can't speak to like where Dave

Schipel's heart is, but, you know, it is odd to keep bringing it up. That's at the very least, it's fucking bizarre to people. But whether or not you have like a, like I wanna create a death machine for all the trans people that doesn't determine if you're transphobic. If you go around saying transphobic things, whether or not deep down you feel bad about it,

you're still a transphobic, doing transphobic things. Yeah, I think the, but anyhow, but yeah, I agree, but the thing is like, let's say the most cynical take on this is the Dave should tell knows that he will get a, not only that community, but the larger sort of internet sort of talking about this because this is a topic that is very, very much a flashpoint for a lot of people and comes up and becomes very heated, very quickly. And is obviously a very serious topic for a lot of people and comes up and becomes very heated very quickly and is obviously a very serious topic for a lot of people who are living it and dealing

with this shit. And I think that that part of this is like, okay, he's like, I know this will, I know this will create controversy, right? There's a big part of that. What's fucked up and what I actually find the most fucked up. And this to me is like, it is very much in line, it's very much in the vein of Trump and like Trump's the way Trump talks and the way that he spoke when he was president.

And people would be like, you know, he get what he does and what Dave Chappelle does, that to me is the most damaging thing. It's not that Dave Chappelle personally holds transphobic viewpoints, or that Dave Chappelle thinks it's cool to joke about trans people, or Dave Chappelle says, I'm a turf. The worst part of this is that there are fucking

legions of dumbasses who follow this guy, and I'm like watching them now, and there's people who are like, he thanked God somebody finally said it, I'm so glad he's pissing off the trans people. It's like, and it's like, he empowers people who actually, the shit he's talking, you know, if he was like, oh,

I had a friend who committed suicide or whatever, the shit he's talking about empowers the people who are doing violence, who are causing people to have fucking, to be in distress, who are directly, these are the people who would, when there's a family member who's trans

or when there's somebody they know who's trans, they feel like they are empowered and emboldened to be awful to those people because Dave Chappelle said it was all right. And like what to me, the thing that's really like cynical and destructive is like, make your fucking jokes. I get it. Okay.

And make your money. I get it. But but that like there's no connection between this, between his, what he considers to be his craft, that his job is to say whatever's on his mind because we don't wanna edit ourselves or whatever the fuck it is, that there's no connection between his choices there and how it empowers and emboldens people out in the real world.

You know, he can talk all he wants about Twitter not being real. And again, I haven't seen the thing, so I haven't seen all of what he says, but this is all over Twitter right now if you look at it. And it's like, but it is real. It gets back to, it's like the fucking Christchurch shooting and the fucking synagogue in Pittsburgh they got shot up by these fucking people who listen to people like Trump and these other neo-nazis. And we're like, yeah, why should we take it?

Why should we elect these people exist? I'm gonna do something about it. And like, that's the fucking, that's where to me, like Dave Chappelle is, like, and it just here, I'll get it, I'm hearing about this for the first time, but it's like, do you ever think for a second that maybe like there are other targets that don't, that will not end up actually turning into like real world violence and pain for people? Because that's what I think is

going on with the, with the trans shit. Like I think on the, on his like jokes about, and when you talk about flippin'ly, or when you make it okay to say, fuck these people, or who cares about what they think, or they're not important enough for me to care about what they think, or they're not important enough for me to hold my tongue on jokes that I know might be funny to my audience right now or might be funny to me personally,

but have real other types of effects in the world. That's fucked up to me. The most fucked up thing is that, say whatever the fuck you want, but you're not saying it in a vacuum and it has this trickle down effect. Like I'm watching, I'm looking at these people on Twitter who are real people and will go and continue to think and say the shit in their real life. And I think that has at the end of the day has really, really fucked up effects for actual reality, not Twitter reality, but for the reality that people

live in. And certainly the reality that trans people live in, like, I'm not, you know, I'm not the world's foremost expert on how this works, but I will say it's pretty, it's a pretty straight line from, you know, people, famous, popularizing and making it okay to feel and say these things and people who are way less smart and way less successful and have way less going for them to say, yeah, that's how I'm going to position myself around this topic. And that leads to bad shit, nine times out of 10, like Trump's shit, you may say, well, you know, that's just the way he talks or whatever, but it's like, yeah, it's the way he talks.

And when his, when his dumb ass followers hear it, he empowers them and emboldens them to go do bad shit, which they have absolutely done, you know? And so like, I think it's like, I don't know, man, you know, it's like, it's really kicking people when they're down. It's like, it's like, not like trans people are having a fucking easy time of it in the world as of right this moment. It's an odd fucking target. You know, it'd be like, I mean, does he do jokes about Palestinians?

Because that's kind of like, because that's kind of like where it's at. You know, it's like, do we think that the Palestinians who are dealing with like, you know, what is happening in Israel and Palestine right now? Is that like, should we talk shit on them and make fun of them and make jokes about them and make jokes about how the things that they are feeling

and experiencing don't matter because, like you think it, you know, because you don't think it's real. Like, to me, that's the level we're at. It's like, yeah, people who are going through bad shit don't need you to also like fucking pile on them and have your followers pile on them. I mean, it just, as a general rule, it just fucked up.

It just comes down to like, listen, if you have this impulse, we were like, I don't know about trans, I don't know if that's good. I don't know what's going to happen to society. And you're like, we somebody should think critically and discuss this. That's an okay impulse to have. But when you come to discover that trans people are like constantly harassed, regularly commit suicide or are murdered, have much higher rates of poverty. And that trans people of color have it the hardest and you understand

racism and you understand discrimination. I just don't like trans people get it like they get it. They understand you don't want them to be trans. They've heard every argument. They have everybody in the world against them. We don't need you. You don't have to help. You know what I mean? Like the anti against them. I, we don't need you, you don't, you don't have to help. You know what I mean? Like the anti-trans movement, it's not like you're standing up for someone with a tiny opinion that never gets heard. You know what I mean?

Like we got it. We understand. I mean, but like, you know, listen, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's made a choice. His choice is like, it's a scenario. Do you want people to be more violent? I don't understand.

I mean, you know, but, but look, but, you know, but, but the argument is, it's like, Hey, Dave Shapel, you know, says what's on his mind. Dave Shapel makes jokes about things he thinks are funny. You know, he doesn't care. He offends everybody. I mean, that's the, that's the argument. But that, but that, but that you equal opportunity offender, right? He, but then you have to deal with people saying,

fuck Dave Chappelle, that's what's going through my mind. I get to say it. You can't then be like, oh, this is cancel culture, Twitter is coming for me, it's such bullshit, that's not even real. Okay, then why does it bother you? Like, if you get to just randomly attack a group of people, I get to say like, you're super fucked up for doing that

and fuck you and you're a terrible person. And I get to say those things because you provoked it. And frankly, that's my opinion. And if that's the standard, then I don't wanna hear any fucking complaints. I mean, listen, I mean, it's just disappointing more than anything. Like again, I mean, I haven't watched it.

I'm, now I'm like, oh, and I'm like, this. I'm, now I'm like, another, this is the goal. Now I'm like, okay, I need to see what's up with, with this, but it's like, you can always torrent it. I don't know, Dave should tell us really, really a funny fucking dude, right? Like he's like seriously, just fun. I mean, he was, I mean, he's capable of being like, the funniest dude in the world, in my opinion.

But I don't think that's true anymore. I think he gloms onto this stuff because he has's capable of being like the funniest dude in the world in my opinion, but I don't think that's true anymore I think he climbs onto this stuff because he has no way of being relatable to the average person And he knows that I don't know. I mean, he's also old like he's old like Dave Sheep Powell does Dave Sheep Hell He's in his 50s or something. I mean like it's like a Louis CK situation You know, it's like I think all the time about Louis CK like the arc of Louis CK and it's like all the time about Louis CK, like the arc of Louis CK and it's like, he's like, okay, so, so Louis CK, unbelievably successful comedian has everything going for him. Then it comes out that he did all this like really fucked up weird sexual harassment and like basically assault and just like fucked up weird, bad, very like sex past, sex past plus, as we like to say. And, and, and you know, his reaction was, I mean, there's basically like, there's two reactions

when you, when somebody says, you've done something wrong. Like in my, in my experience, and we've all, we've all been there. We've all been like, we've all been like, they fuck you for telling me I did something wrong, right? Like that's a, that is an emotion that to me I think maybe comes to be first when somebody tells me I've done something wrong or I said something wrong or I got something wrong, like I had a bad take or whatever. My first thought is this defense mechanism, which is like, fuck you, you're wrong, right? Mm-hmm. And then usually, and I've learned this through

many years of being in rooms with people smarter than me and who know things that I don't know. I probably talked about this before, but I'm gonna revisit it. Sitting around with like people like editors and writers often, you know, from very different backgrounds and varied it with very different perspectives than me, saying that's dumb, or like, here's why that is not right. Or here's why that's a bad idea. I'm not saying like stuff like being a turf is cool, but like even small things, even like whatever,

daily story ideas. I think our whole team is pretty good about coming back a day later and being like, okay, I was wrong or you were wrong, or you know what I mean? Like we're pretty good about like digesting stuff. I mean, I was wrong or you were wrong or, you know what I mean? We're pretty good about digesting stuff. I mean, I think it's a skill to me, like one of the, like if somebody was like,

okay, what are the things that you think? Somebody was like, I wanna do what you do. You know, I wanna run like publications or whatever and be an editor of publications or what, you know, and to me was like, what's one of the most important, what's the most important thing that you can do if you wanna have your job? And like, to me, the most important thing is that

you surround yourself with really smart people who are really good at what they do, and then you listen to them, you know? And so, I've gotten really used to, nah, I'm not always, I don't always say, okay, you're right, sometimes I argue with people, sometimes I'm like, actually, you're fucking wrong, and here's why.

But it is like has gotten, and I would say I've built this up over, you know, the last decade or so, I was not always good at it. It took a long time to learn that my first instinct, often, which is like, fuck you, you're wrong, is not, is often not the right instinct and is in productive and actually I don't learn anything and they don't learn anything and we end up you know in the same

place. But but but it's funny when I think about Louis CK it's like his reaction to it wasn't criticism by the way. People weren't like Louis CK your comedy is is rude and offensive. They that's not even it. They were like, you are like harassing people and it's fucked up and bad and you shouldn't do that. And there was a lot of public, you know, it was very public, right, for him, right? I mean, he's very public, he's a celebrity, but the reaction was extremely public.

And his reaction to it wasn't to go, God, you know what? What the fuck was I doing? Like, what was I thinking? Like, this is bad. It's true. Like, I've looked at it now. I've backed away from it.

And my behavior was really not right. And I understand why people react. I mean, some people overreacted. Some people were like calling for my death. That's fucked up. But, you know, if it were me, I don't know if I don't know How you come back from it, but date but but but the Louis C. K's reaction to people going like you're a fucked up sex Past and you need to deal with that was not to say I'm dealing with this and then like come back and like use his

Craft which he's a genius at again, Louis C. K is a genius comedian and a genius like thinker about how to turn situations that are bad or weird into very funny or interesting or thoughtful situations. This dude came back and was like, I'm like, those people are wrong for like those people are wrong for, like those people are wrong for even suggesting that I've done something wrong. And now his comedy is like, he's like, you know, his comedy is like about cancel culture, you know?

Like, his vibe is, you know, Lucy K's touring the country selling out to like, a bunch of like, MRA men's rights activists, you know, Louis C. K's touring the country selling out to like, a bunch of like M.R.A., M.R.A. men's rights activists, you know, white guys with a chip on their shoulder who are one bad day to away from a school shooting or whatever, who want to cheer on people who are like, cancel culture is bad and we need to do something about it, you know, like, it's like Dave Chappelle and Louis C. K.

are kind of doing the same thing. Whether they're like people or like that what you're doing there. It's kind of sucks. And their reaction isn't, all right, let me actually like, do you have a point or like, could I do this better or have I made a mistake? Not even made a mistake, but like, is there something I can learn? Not even say, okay, Dave, your previous trans stuff was a mistake. Fuck it.

Say it's a learning experience. You did some stuff. you saw a reaction, you're kind of listening to that and figuring out, like, is that the best way to go or whatever? There's a million things I can imagine him doing with the concept of him, you know, a revelation or whatever. Same thing with Louis CK.

But the decision is to go, fuck you, you're wrong. To be so sure, to be so sure that everybody else has a worse idea than you do. And I think to some extent, you can't become a Louis K. or a Dave Chappelle without that. Like you can't. And I think in my own life, I think it's true that sometimes you run rough shot over other ideas

because you actually do have the better idea. And you need to kind of like push it, right? But if you don't learn the other part of it, to me, that's like you're missing something as an actual like human being. Like you're missing something not just in like your career or whatever but as like how we are supposed to learn from other people and get better at whatever it is we do or whoever it is we are. And I think what's most kind of disappointing to me is I want to root for Dave Chappelle. And I don't understand the desire or the need

for this particular avenue to be continually mined. And like with Louis CK? It's like, I think there are a lot of people. I would venture to guess the majority of people who like Louis CK prior to all of this stuff coming out about who he is and what he'd done. I think a lot of people would have said, you know what?

If he had come back and said, I really fucked up and let me take you through like, I'm going to talk about this like transparently and talk about like figuring out how to like be better. I think a lot of people, most of his fans would have come right on back to Louis K and he'd have a show on fucking FX again and he'd be doing stand up for Netflix and HBO not, you know, it's some fucking West Virginia dive that Joe Manchin owns or wherever the fuck he's doing it now.

And like, you know, it's just weird to me. It's just weird that they can't access that part of their mind where it's like, wait a second, maybe, just maybe they have a point. Could it be possible that anybody else is ever right? And I think it's like, yeah, I don't know. I can't connect on that. Like, my mind doesn't connect up there

because I'm used to saying, okay, you have a good point. Like, I think it's a healthy thing to do. I don't do it all the time. I think a lot of people would say I'm extremely frustrated and think a lot of people would say I'm extremely frustrating, and you know, have a lot of very, you know, strong opinions that I don't back down from. But I don't know.

Once in a while, you gotta give the floor to somebody else, you know? Speak me out. Again, I gotta watch this to really. Let's talk about Facebook. Okay, let's talk about it. Do you want to lay it out for us? Sure. Facebook is the most evil company on earth now. Facebook was recently drawn in for some government discussions of what's going on over there.

And it ends up what's going on over there, is that Facebook is regularly suppressing its own research and internal concerns about the shit that it does. I mean, from literally ignoring human trafficking in third world countries fully because it gets the engagement to promoting clickbait hate speech because it gets them engagement to knowing that they're absolutely destroying the psyches of children that use their products, deciding that they're going to make more products targeted at children because they gave so much time to have engagement. And you know, you would think that if the whole world was like, hey, you're very obviously doing some really bad stuff. I mean, we'd already known that you

encouraged like, you know, genocides and stuff. And this is, well, encourage, or I mean, it's more like, it encourages, it's more like, if there's a service, it's pushing that. Having passive, have a passive. But if you're algorithmic choosing to push that, it's not passive. And if you're the entire media somewhere, like in some of these countries in Africa and Asia, that's the entire media, is just Facebook. And you have some level of responsibility that if your algorithm is pushing that story on people, I mean, I can't think of it as anything other than active.

And yeah, well, I mean, I'm not disagreeing that they play a very active part in a lot of this stuff. I mean, we should, I mean, to be clear, this topic has come up about Facebook over and over again, that they are, I mean, this idea is not exactly due. In fact, I pointed out the other day that we were writing about this a year ago, that, you know, on the topic of the way political content and messages were being shared that they had research in their hands that said, hey, this is destructive, it's bad, it's hurtful.

And they were like, that's, we don't care. We're bringing people together. Right, they're bringing people together, but the reality is, they're businesses based on engagement. And actually what has been most offensive, so there's this whistleblower who says, look, they have all this research. It says negative, hurtful engagement actually increases use of these services, increases attention and time spent on the service. And that's desirable, right?

Now, I don't, I'm sure there are pieces of Facebook, places in Facebook where they're like, hey, we've got to prevent certain types of harmful content. They definitely have all sorts of filtering and people looking at posts. yeah, they're taking down I think five percent of all hate speech that that's what they've captured you know and and and and that's by their admission Right and they'll tell you and I'm sure it's true that hate speech is you know how it's hard to identify and all that

It's you know in in some cases. I'm sure that's true But why is the assumption that we have to have Facebook and everyone has to be able to post constantly? Well, to getting to it, getting to the heart of it, right? So they're like, first off, their business is ad supported. They are ad supported and we're in an ad supported business so I can speak pretty clearly on this topic, right? What they want is for people to stay on any Facebook product

where they are going to see ads. And they don't, and that is how they be like. Or at least give them data that's usable. Well, I mean, yes, either way, but I mean, they need the data that they get is simply so their partners can target better, totally advertising people. I mean, when people are in messenger and they're not seeing a ton of ads,

like that's not a harmless product to use. Yes, but, yes, but, in talking about where Facebook is trying to magnetize engagement, right? Of course, the message apps are a big part of it, but what is true about those is that there's a much more directed, personally directed choice about who you're talking to and when and what you're talking about. I'm saying that like in these more open forums where like virality can happen because sharing of things in a public manner happens,

their goal is to keep you there, obviously to keep you on all the products, and obviously to eat up as many products as they can so they can get more data to your point. But in those public-facing products, it's all about keeping you there and keeping you engaged and magnetized to that page or that screen by any means necessary because the reality is that Facebook is a business that has no growth end in mind in the sense that they don't think the size of Facebook now is enough. They don't think what Facebook does is enough. Facebook would be happy if they could to purchase every other social network that exists and make it part of Facebook. They would be happy if they could to purchase every other social network that exists and make it part of Facebook. They would be happy if they could

to purchase, you know, Apple and make your iPhone a Facebook phone if they could. So there is no scale for Facebook that is acceptable, except more. And so everything is about, for their shareholders, for their CEO, for every person who works there, the goal is growth, the goal is engagement, the goal is more dollars in the door and more people on the platform.

So everything they do is aligned to that goal. And anything they tell you about how they care, they truly care about the safety. If you told them that you'd have to eliminate, you know, half of the posts on the site because they were destructive or hate speech or whatever, Facebook would not do that because that would be, it would be against their overall business goals. And Facebook's a business. They're not, they're not here to connect people. They're not here to make the world a better place. They're not here to help family. They're not an essential service.

It's like, they will tell you that they are for many people and they have made themselves essential in many places to your point about where they are the whole of the internet for many countries. But that's not like, to the point that you actually were getting to, which I agree with like this idea That it is imperative that a service like Facebook exists that there's a wall where you can post stories you see is like

some weird illusion invented by By Silicon Valley and by people like Mark Zuckerberg who haven't, as far as I can tell, I never had a real experience as an adult human prior to Facebook, which is like, I don't know what to make of that, but it doesn't make for a critical thinker, in my opinion. But this idea that we should be living in this perpetual viewing and sharing of content or opinions or information or whatever is you may think it's that way because that's the way the internet thus far has kind of led us to to feel. But like that's actually not, I mean in some way weirdly, it does tie back in a little bit with Dave Sheepel's like

critique of Twitter and people on Twitter, which is to say, there is a difference between like, there is a difference between what our life could be or it should be and what is what we see on these screens and what we see through these services. And I say this, and we've talked about this before, as a person who spent my entire life going deeper and deeper and deeper into how I could use technology to communicate with people and reach people and talk to people. And many of my early friendships when I was like a teenager and a young adult, many of them were built on the internet and built virtually and built in spaces that were not a representation of like, you know,

us as people, but a version of ourselves that we presented. The further you go into it, the more you start to see what is broken about this structure. And I think when people hear about regulation or breaking things up, they think, oh, this is some business. And it often it does come from a place where it's like a monopoly, it's about monopolies, right? Well, they shouldn't have a monopoly, they shouldn't have X, Y, and Z.

But I actually think we need to think about this more from a public health standpoint. And more from a, what do we want the world to be standpoint? Like let's actually construct reality for ourselves here because that's, we are doing that now. Like we are engaging in a construction of how we want to live and we've decided that right now it's this one way. It doesn't actually.

Well we can't do that Josh, because the free market. Right. But I mean this is what I'm saying, is that, if we don't have chaos, when we talk about this stuff, like what we actually need to talk about is more, it's loftier in many ways than just like whether Facebook ignored its research, right?

It's like, let's say one way or the other, let's say that either this is true or it isn't, okay? What is it that makes us think that this version of reality, where we're doing whatever we're doing every day, is like the best version of reality that we could have, you know? And like, why is it Facebook or Instagram? And what is it you're getting out of it or what is it that they offer that is better than whatever,

you know, whatever that other thing might be, you know? And I think that like, they've made it so easy to become convinced that it's like Instagram kids, okay? They recently shelved a project, which was gonna be a Instagram for kids, like under 13 or something. Okay? And it is part of this idea. You know, and you hear them talk about it. And I think Mark Zuckerberg even cites it in this fucking bullshit letter that he wrote. This idea that it's like, kids are gonna use technology. And so we should give them a safe space to blah, blah, blah.

It's like, yeah, kids are gonna use technology. Like they're absolutely gonna find ways to use it and they wanna use it. But because like a child sees their parent looking at Instagram, or because their teenage cousin is like on TikTok, the idea that like that's the natural progression that we should all be engaged in,

that's like the healthy thing to do, or that even makes any sense for children full stop is like an illusion created by companies that want to make money off of you. It is just that. It may feel enjoyable, it may feel enjoyable for like, but it is very much like many things that we enjoy.

There is an acceptable amount of it, and then there's an amount it is very much like many things that we enjoy. There is a there is an acceptable amount of it And then there's an amount which is too much and I think like this is a case where We again, I've talked about this for years, but this actually isn't something we can Facebook can be forced to help with this problem In the sense that they're not going to regulate themselves. They're not going to regulate how they operate as a business, and that has effects in the market. They need to be regulated in certain ways. They shouldn't own what's out.

They probably shouldn't own Instagram. We should be able to have businesses that are independent of the two billion user, three billion. How many users of Facebook are there now? Three billion of Facebook.com. You know, that should be enough for a company. Yeah, we don't need to do. Honestly, I truly believe they don't need to be allowed to do streaming video. They don't need to be allowed to do, like, they shouldn't be curating news

services. Like, we need to break this shit up and decide, like, whether or not one company should have so much power over information that they can just decide to take over another section of the inflation economy or whatever. Yeah, and I think that the other part of this, the other work that needs to be done, which as far as I can tell, is not being done is very much like trying to think of the way to describe it. I mean, to me, it's like parenting. The work is like, what are we doing? Like, what are we all doing here?

Like, we need to be thinking more about what it is we're doing every day with technology. I think the big missing piece for technology is that everybody seems to believe because it feels so good so much at the time and because it's so easy and because, frankly, technology's amazing and it's the coolest fucking thing ever and it makes so many amazing things possible

that it's very easy to become convinced that all of it is that. All of it is like the amazing part, you know? And that's like, when in fact, you should be more suspicious of something that gives both the company and the user the appearance of more power but is completely impulse based. And especially when it's being offered to you, quote unquote, for free. Those things that are so easy to get into should be make you more suspicious.

Right? easy to get into should be make you more suspicious. Right. This is the, I mean, this is, there is tension around this. There has always been tension around this. I mean, for free is not a thing unless it is a, you know, a billionaire just decides that they want to give you something. And even then there's there are other strings, there are other strings, right? But, but, you know, we know, we said this before, we run news businesses in an ad-supported space. And we have conversations all the time with we hear an advertiser will say, well, I really just wanna be around like upbeat content.

And it's like, there are places where they hear that, they go, oh, well, I guess we'll just make upbeat content then. We won't, you know, we, I've heard many times in my career, like, oh, yeah, we lost that deal because they really just wanted to advertise on, like, happy stories. And frankly, you know, or whatever. And like, frankly, it's not an unjustified business decision. Like, we live in a world where you either get to make content or you don't. Very few people get to do it and get paid. Like a living wage.

And if you're marginal and you're on the line and this is your dream and someone's like, well, you can only really make this kind of content. You're like, I mean, I'll take it. And listen, some people do. And like, I have had many, many uncomfortable and hard conversations with people who come to, over the years, I mean, I can think of situations when we were at Vox

where Samsung would wanna advertise and they're like, but hey, we'd love to sponsor this video series, but you can't show any Apple products and it'd be like, we're doing a documentary thing and they're like, but if we can't see any Apple products on screen and we're like, well, I guess you won't be sponsoring this thing because it's a that's like- That's the battery thing and they're like, but if we can't see any Apple products on screen and we're like, well, I guess you won't be sponsoring this thing because that's the battery.

It's like, that's not really possible and also would be very disingenuous and like we're not doing sponsor content for you. But the reality is like, in a business like Facebook, there is, you there is a different incentives for them and different standards for them. But this idea that you're getting this experience and this service, and all you have to do is see some ads. It cannot be, you cannot discount what that means, which is like the exchange is for your time, right?

It's an access to your id, like your brain. Like your data, your time and your date. It used to be just your time. Like if we were selling a magazine, okay, if you were selling a magazine, you were selling ads in a magazine. You go, okay, we're gonna put like this, you know, Cadillac out on the inside cover or whatever.

And you know, like X amount of people subscribe to this magazine, X amount of people buy it at stores. And then like you're hoping that they open the magazine and spend at least a few moments with this image, right? This ad, right? Facebook doesn't have to wonder. They can tell you down to the millisecond what people are doing and why they're doing it

and how they react when they see it and what's the next thing they do and what do they do the day after that and what does that mean in the next year of their life and where will they head from a commerce and capitalist standpoint and so like capitalism standpoint and so like you got to go like, okay, this is an exchange I'm making behind the scenes. There's a business you all have no part of, which is someone is paying Facebook to get information about me and to show me something because they can make money off of me in some way. And like that's Facebook's business,

is how do we make money off of the people using our service? Not, again, their business is not to bring the world together. If their business was to bring the world together, they would offer a tier with no advertising. They'd be doing it. Like they would, you'd notice a lot more unity. Or they'd say, you know what they'd say?

If they're goal really was to to create positive, meaningful, society building interactions, they could do it. They would just have to say, we're not gonna allow a lot of this other stuff that we think has the opposite effect, but they're not doing that because it would be detrimental to growth and detrimental to revenue

and detrimental to their stock price and detrimental to investors. And so that's who they serve. They serve the stock price, they serve the investors, they serve themselves, they serve their advertisers. There's nothing wrong with any of that. The problem is that we think that Facebook needs to sit at the center of our lives and that we've decided as a society that social networks and our discourse among them

on them and among them is the way we're supposed to live. And I think two things have to happen. One I think is that some of these businesses need to be regulated by people who know how the fuck the businesses work. And then the other big part, which I see nobody really doing in any meaningful way, is we have to rethink the way we construct our society, the way we construct life, the way we think

of the things that are important to us. Because I don't think, you know, look, as you know, I'm an avid user of social media, on Twitter all the time saying all sorts of things dumb and otherwise. But, you know, is it the best thing for me or for anybody to be exposed to that or how much of it should we be exposed to or what parts of it? And I think there's just big, big questions about like how we're arranged as a society that we have to,

we've got to, like we're're, we're, we're past the decade point on iPhones, okay? And we're getting, now we are getting into the hard part, which always was going to happen, which was going to, which is answering the question of how do we live with all the stuff that we made? How do we live with all of the technology that we've created? How do we live with the stuff that we haven't even thought of yet that's coming? How do we navigate what it is and what it does to us? And like having some plan for that or some awareness of the need for it at least is the biggest challenge that we're going to face in the next like 25 years.

It's not about the technology, it's not about the regulation. It's about like people making choices and being able to make those choices. And I mean partially that is regulation related. But there's just a, I think a huge reckoning that needs to happen about not the technology and what it does, but how we choose to live with it and how much we choose to let it be part of what our lives are. And I will say this problem has been, this issue has been exacerbated and sort of diverted by a pandemic which has created an unbelievable,

undeniable need for technology more than ever before. And I will say, and I wrote about this at the start of the pandemic that the technology we have has been unquestionably helpful in a time when there, if this had happened 30 years ago, or 20 years ago even, there would be a lot of people feeling a lot more alone. There would be a lot of people who couldn't talk to their family. There would be a lot of people who were disconnected from what is going on in the world world or didn't understand what was happening because the things we have now weren't available. So, it's been unbelievable.

You know, there are kids who would never just have not gotten any school whatsoever, right? And so, there's, you know, we actually have had been through a moment, we are in the middle of a moment where technology is unquestionably, there are incredible uses and important uses for it and it has made a positive impact in a lot of people's lives. But that doesn't mean that you have to, you know, that you can ignore the rest of it. And the rest of it is like, you know, how do we navigate this stuff for ourselves and for our kids and for our communities?

And I just don't think the work has been put in. I certainly don't think the regulatory work has put in and certainly we have not done the personal work. And where that starts, I don't know. I think it's about education, I think it's about literacy. I think it's about like how we think of what these services are, but that's a big, big unpacking to do. And we're certainly not going to get to it on this episode tomorrow.

Yeah, and I think so there. You're still there. I think, frankly, that these companies are too good at hacking people's brains, and we should just, you know, make them illegal. I mean, we should make it harder for them to hack our brains and harder for them to do the things that they do that are menacingly. We just, we don't need, like, I mean, at the bare minimum, I saw somebody that was, I mean, I'm not going to name names, but somebody was tweeting, should we, like, is it worth at this point?

Are things so bad that we need to get rid of the algorithmic timeline? It's, and it's like, yeah, they've been that bad. And the algorithmic timeline is not, first of, not something you need. And second, like, it's not the only way that will ever be presented with content. I don't think that computers trying to guess what will provoke us the most and constantly presenting it to us is ending well. Like it's not going well.

And it's been really bad. Again, again, it's, this is an idea that is completely created out of the minds of a very small group of people that out of a college student. I know, I mean, forget about Facebook for a second. This idea of, I mean, listen, I want you to know it's as easy as this in case anybody's wondering.

It's as easy as this, okay? One day, somebody was like some engineers at Facebook or Twitter or wherever, you know, whoever did it first, it wasn't them, by the way, it was another service. So, he was like, you know what's cool? It's like, I just figured out that we can take this data set over here of like what people have been interacting with. And if we kind of apply that to the stuff that's being posted or whatever pops up next, it'll show them stuff that's more relevant to their interests.

And somebody, by the way, brilliant idea. It's a brilliant fucking idea. And somebody at that company whoever did it first was like, that's a really good idea. Like, we can give them more personalized content that they'll really like. And like, that sounds like a nice thing. It started as a very nice thing, okay?

I'm telling you, nobody was like, we're gonna abuse this. They were like, hey, you've been interacting with these stories about you really love when people post a picture of their lunch. You're a big lunch fan and like, now we know that we can give you more lunch pictures quicker on our service and you'll like that. And I think that's a very fine thing to think.

But like that idea to where we are now because you understand it just compounds over time, right? And then they go, Hey, you know, we just realized is that if we show them this thing for a little bit longer, they'll, they're more likely to do X or, or, or Y, you know, there's this thing called A B testing. Does it? I mean, I don't know if most people know what A B testing is.

A B testing is like, they'll show you one thing and then a different version of that thing. And they get data. Facebook has insane testing. Like if you go and use Facebook's tools for doing an ad, right, you can make like 17 different versions of your ad, okay. And each of those versions can have a little bit of Netflix with the covers, right? You know how Netflix has all these algorithmically selected covers, some will engage you more than

others. This is all the same part of the same thing. Netflix will let you make 17 different ads, okay? And then you can run a test on a group, whatever group whatever size you want as long as you're willing to pay for it. And it will tell you which one of those ads they engage with more, right?

And then you can use that to make more ads based on whatever it is that's engaging them, right? And you know what happens? You run an ad one day and you go, Trump said what, or whatever the ad is. And then your other ad said, like Donald Trump announces a new tax credit or whatever. You know, one of those is gonna do better.

And the one that does better often is the one that plays to our most base instincts as human beings, which is a reaction, a surprise, a shock. What is this? I have to, you know, clickbait is, they talk by the way, and I do wanna talk about this really quickly, they talk about clickbait.

You know, clickbait, what is clickbait? I mean, it's kind of a bullshit term because the best headlines in the world are clickbait. It makes you pay attention. It makes you wanna attention. It makes you want to look, right? And that is like literally all of commerce. Every piece of it has an element of that in it. It makes you want to look. Why do you look at the car? Why did you choose that car instead of that one? Why do you buy that magazine instead of that other one? What is attractive about that piece of clothing versus this one? Like, it is like, how do you get somebody to pay attention and consider something, right?

But so, so, but often and especially unchecked, which is what Facebook has been, and many of these services, not just Facebook, what, what happens in unchecked, unchecked engagement is the worst Unchecked engagement is the worst Instincts emerge and they work because down deep down We're all just animals and we have animal instincts and we have animal reactions to things And there is like really interesting chemistry happening here and interesting Cognition happening but the truth is people people like to think that they're immune to advertising or immune to any impulse or like they're immune to being manipulated.

And like if that was true, if that was the case, then advertising wouldn't be a billion dollar. And you may be immune to like a display ad, which is an ad that looks like an ad that you see on a page somewhere or in a magazine or whatever. But you're not immune to all this other stuff, which you don't even realize is happening.

What that is is like what Facebook figured out eventually was not that they needed to make you react to the ads, okay? Is that they need to make you react to something where the ads were close to, okay? Where the ads were near, where your data could be gathered. So you're not reacting to the ad that says, Trump did what or whatever the fucking thing is or you know, like the cheapest sweatshirt you can buy. I mean, they still have those ads, but now you're not reacting to the cheapest sweatshirt

you can buy or whatever the fuck it is. You're reacting to something somebody said and they're like, hey, while they're looking at this very engaging comment, show them a bunch of these ads, right? And get a bunch of data from them about how they interact so we can refine this further. And that's the product. That's what they do. But, but, but you know, like, there's nothing wrong with the initial instinct, you know,

show people more of what they like. But what people like, or what people like or what people react to and what they like are very different things. What people engage with and what they like are very different things. I would venture to say or to guess that for many people, what they engage with and what they react to are at the polar opposite ends of what they like.

And so when you start to think about that equation, are at the polar opposite ends of what they like. And so when you start to think about that equation, when you really put that in mind, you realize that the whole fucking framework of these services and of a lot of the internet feeds into and amplifies instincts that you would not personally identify as positive or good. And so that's the problem. That is a big part of the underlying problem. And like, we have to address that at some point. We have to really address it. And we have to change the way we think about this stuff. All right, anyhow, can I talk about, we should talk about something else. I know we've gone on for a while here. I think there's a couple of other things. Sorry, what do you want to talk about?

I want to talk about how I was up until three in the morning last night doing one of the most, I'm gonna tell you, doing one of the most frustrating, obnoxious, and raging things I have done in my adult life. Are you ready? Okay. Last night I decided fairly early in the evening, I'll say maybe 10 o'clock,

that I was gonna download every Castlevania game, every ROM, every ISO, whatever I could find, and that I think I was like, I'm gonna play through the entire series from beginning to the beginning. I've been playing a bunch of Castlevania too. Castlevania is great. Anyhow, so I'm like, I'm gonna play through the entire series from beginning from the beginning. I've been playing a bunch of Castlevania too. Castlevania is great. Anyhow, so I'm like, you know,

I don't think I ever finished the original Castlevania. And obviously you start there. By the way, I may actually end up doing this as a Twitch thing. I was thinking about it, although Twitch has got majorly hacked. I actually was thinking like, this would be, because what I experienced last night, I'm gonna get to it a second,

but what I experienced last night would probably make for pretty good entertaining Twitch viewing. It did not make for entertaining life experience. So I was like, I don't think I've ever played Castlevania all the way through. I'm gonna do it. And then Laura was like, you know,

I definitely watched when my brothers or maybe I even did it, like when it was first out, like play through this whole game. And I'm like, you know, now that I think of brothers or maybe I even did it, like when it was first out, like play through this whole game. And I'm like, you know, now that I think of it, it's like a really old school NES game. It can't be that long.

Like, the newer Castlevania's are like insane. Like, Symphony of the Night, I've been playing for months and I'm still not done with it, you know? But like, you know, Castlevania, you know, a Rondo of Blood Dracula X, super long game, tons of secrets to uncover. But anyhow, the original Castlevania, I'm like, uh... but like uh... you know castle vain you know uh... uh... rondo blood Dracula acts super long game tons of secrets to uncover but any of the original castles and i'm like yet any as cartridge like this can't be that long

i'm like let me start playing in cf r i can get and you know i've i've become obviously great castle vania player over the last mean you know when was the original castle vania released i know thirty years ago or something maybe more at any rate i'm like i'm going to play through castle vania was the original Castlevania released, I know it was 30 years ago or something, maybe more. At any rate, I'm like, I'm gonna play through Castlevania. And I have to say I was doing pretty great.

Also, I will, I'm playing on Retro Arch and there's like Save States, which, God did not intend, there are unintended consequences from having Save States in a game that was definitely never intended to have Save States. But first off, my first reaction was, I can't fucking believe how hard the game is. Just punishingly.

I mean, I remember it being hard, but I only really remember the first few levels. I can barely get through, like the original Castlevania. I can barely get through it with rewind, not even safety. It's like being able to just be like, oh, I just died, I undo it. I can barely get through it with rewind, not even safety. It's like being able to just be like, oh, I just died. I undo it.

I can barely get through it doing that. It's honestly like nightmare level. And Laura pointed out, and I think this is true. I do think there's a generation of people who grew up playing these like punishingly hard games. And I do think it made us like a kind of like very hard work or to a point where we like completely fry ourselves to death in like a work Environment because we're kind of like yep, this is you just got to keep fucking doing it like you're just gonna keep going

That's how it is like you will learn it. You'll get it eventually You know, you just have to keep and I do think there's like a part of I do feel like there's a part of my personality where it's like Yeah, like I will take on like punishing weird hard stuff and just be like, I'm gonna just push through this. Anyhow, so I'm playing the original Castlevania last night and it's going pretty well. And then, and I realize in playing it that like the truly greatest, the greatest, you know, you have a secondary weapon in Castlevania, right? Like you can throw knives, you can throw axes.

There's like holy water that causes like a little fire when you throw it. There's a thing that's like a boomerang type of weapon. And then there's this weapon, which is the stopwatch. The stopwatch stops time. It freezes your enemies, right? And what I realize in playing the original Castlevania is the stopwatch is actually the most powerful

secondary weapon there is, because all of the stuff that makes it most maddening is like you're trying to go somewhere and people keep knocking you off of something or killing you in a place where you can't get around them like your enemies, you know? And you could just stop that, right? It literally in place.

So I'm like holding on to the stopwatch through the game as I go through. I'm like not switching my weapon out, you know? I get to a boss, the two mummies, and the stopwatch doesn't affect them. And I'm like, this is fucked up. He infected other bosses, it doesn't affect them. But I beat them anyway.

Then I get to like Frankenstein. Stop it doesn't affect them. But I beat them anyway. Then I get to like Frankenstein. Stopwatch doesn't affect Frankenstein and his little monkey guy that jumps around, okay? And then I get to the Grim Reaper, okay? I get to the Grim Reaper and I've got my stopwatch and it's clear that they want you to have a different weapon when you're fighting the Grim Reaper. They obviously want you to have the Boomerang, okay?

But I'm now at a point where going back to have the Boomerang, okay? But I'm now at a point we're going back to get the Boomerang, which is like basically impossible, because I've saved right before I go into this boss battle with the Grim Reaper. I probably replayed the fight with the Grim Reaper last night last night, more than 100 times in a row. And I lost every time. It is the single, one of the single, last night I would have said it's the single most frustrating thing I've ever done in my entire life. Today I will only say that it is one of the most frustrating things that I've ever done in my entire life.

I could not beat the Grim Reaper, no matter how good I got at following his fucking, he has like four sickles that fly around the screen and on top of you need to like hit the Grim Reaper himself. I could kill the Grim Reaper, but then one of his sickles would hit me before I could get the little ball that signals that you've ended the level. That happened several times, okay. You've no idea after doing like 75 playthroughs of trying to beat him, because you die pretty fast, by the way. I could take like four hits essentially before I die. Because he takes off like four life points while you take off one when you hit him, so very cool. And then he rate, finally I had to just use a cheat code. That's the only way I could beat him. I was like, I was like, oh, you can add cheats to a retro art, you could just fucking like turn on cheats.

Yeah, I'm gonna do that. And it was the greatest feeling in the world. It was the greatest. And I have to say, like, fuck playing a game on hard or like being, I mean, there is a point where it was fun, but it got to a point really fast where it was just not fun at all.

And honestly, it's powered me on the entire Castlevania series. I may never play Castlevania game again. No, I was just not fun at all. And honestly, soured me on the entire Castlevania series. I may never play a Castlevania game again. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I started playing Arya of sorrow on my Retroid pocket. So I have a save. So good.

Yeah, it's good. I'm kind of stuck in a place. I don't know. It's fine. I don't know. To me, anything that isn't like, Rondo of Blood or Symphony of the Night is, you know, it's a poor secondary take on Castlevania.

Anyhow, so I was up till three in the morning. I got like four hours of sleep and that may explain why I have been rambling or that it just might be my personality. So is that your nice thing? No, I don't, no, I don't think so. That was my opposite of a nice thing. That was like the worst thing that ever happened in my life. I was fucking this fucking grim reaper.

I mean, it sucked. I can't believe they expected children to beat this game. I mean, it's fucked up. But then the Dracula, I don't think he did. I straight cheated on the Dracula battle because it was like, no way I could be Dracula. Like, no fucking way, could I, Dracula's like a motherfucker

and then he turns into a huge monster, like you beat him and you're like, oh, I beat Dracula and they turn into a giant fucking monster. It's like, I have no idea how, and they don't even have passwords on the first castle venue. You can't even get back to that. You're just done.

Well, I don't think they didn't want people to beat them because this whole genre was originally created for arcade games and they wanted as many quarters as possible. Then when they started telling them to, at home, they didn't want people, they wanted people to... You mean the concept of a side-scrolling action game is what you're saying is what you're creating for our kids. Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I'm just telling you that

That I'm sure there are people who can like do a speed run of Castlevania or just like unbelievable Expert people are on well. Yeah, but I mean I'm just saying it's I mean god damn it was horrible just horrible although I feel pretty good about having beaten it even though I had to use a cheat I don't care it felt good. I mean I laughed I laughed hysterically when I beat this guy like you said what is a man yeah I know I was like well a man is a whatever is up you know miserable pile miserable my secret is I use the one hit turns you invincible cheat and Fucking just plowed through shit All right, anyhow, that's my nice thing there you happy

Yeah, but you cheated great. I love the cheat my night video games don't play it on hard My nice thing is I bought a PSP go like five years ago when I was a What is a PSP go? So it was a PSP that has a slide up screen and it's entirely digital. If you looked it up, you'd probably remember it. Okay, I'll check it out. It, I wanted one really bad because I wanted one when I was younger,

but I couldn't afford a second PSP when I was a child. And so I wanted one forever and then when I finally had some disposable income, it was one of the things on my list that I was like, I wanna buy this and own I finally had some disposable income, it was one of the things on my list that I was like, I want to buy this and own it. So I purchased one, but the problem with the PSP go is that you, it only uses M2 memory stick cards, which is like a format that didn't exist

and doesn't exist. It only existed for Sony to try to like push it on the market. Sony's like, Sony's like, it's like tried to make a memories card competitor, like an SD card competitor. Yeah, this was like their micro SD competitor and they only ever made it in 8GB and I think some 16GB, but they're impossible to find versions. And so it's like, well,

even though you can hack a PSP and put as many ROMs that you legally ripped on it, I couldn't, there was not enough space. And I was like, all right, well, let me find an adapter. There are no adapters. There was one, at one point there was a kit you could purchase that was like, it had like ribbon cables and you were supposed to slice up an original SD card

within adapter and then it had an attachment that would trick the, it was not working. And I tried to make it myself was not working. I could not find this part anywhere. And I ended up just like putting the PSP go away and having to move on. And eventually I had like alerts set up that if this part was ever available anywhere

that I would like regularly get an update. I found that it was being sold out of Ukraine and it was not so cheap. And I was like, I don't think this is ever gonna arrive but let's throw money at this and see what happens because I waited so long. Sure. I tried to like build this thing at one point so I threw some money at it, heard nothing back and I was like well I got scammed. Eventually it does show up and I'm like all right awesome so I dig out the PSP go I shove the

part in I'm like really excited the PSPGO, I shove the tape the part in, I'm like, really excited, the PSP won't turn on. And I'm like, alright, well the battery must have died because it's been five years of this like, you know, I think I got a replacement battery when I got the thing and it's definitely not a first party battery. So I was like, alright, that's fair enough. So I throw the battery out, I order a new battery, still won't turn on. And I'm like, what the fuck? So I Google it and it's like, you know,

some of the contact points, solder points might have gotten weakened over time and like, you'll have to re-satter the whole thing. And I'm like, I'm not fucking doing this. This is a real nightmare scenario. I'm like hours and hours. I'm years and I'm hundreds of dollars and hours of that day into this problem.

And I was like, I'm not fucking doing this. So I put it away and. And I was like, I'm not fucking doing this. So I put it away and I think it was like, I was like two days later talking with John about how this had happened to me. And I was like, I know it's not a real problem, but I'm very frustrated because I feel like I've waited so long. I had to get a separate credit card number temporarily

to use for the Ukraine purchase because I wasn't sure it wasn't a scam. And John grabs the PSP code and he's like, I've never played with one of these and he's playing around with it and it just turns on. And I'm like, all right, well, so I grab it, I charge it up, I'm so excited. I was so relieved that, and now it's been working fine

and we're not, we're not going to be on wood, we're not going to fuck with that. But I will say I have been playing the original persona, which was remade for PSP. And I have played Persona 4 and 5, so I'm not completely new to the idea of the games, but the first two games are very different. And I was like, let's just see if these are at all, I don't know, if I get into it, because I do like the later games.

And I am so obsessed with the original persona game for PSP. It has got my brain. First of all, I love the PSP go, obsessed with this device. I think it's perfect. I think we never should have turned away from it. But I also think I love this game. And it's got to hold on me the way that like,

the original Pokemon or like Final Fantasy VII had to hold on me when I was younger, which is like I cannot put this down. I'm playing it during TV shows, I'm playing it on the bus, I'm playing it like during, what John brings me lunch and I close my laptop for the 15 minutes or whatever, I fucking whip it out, I am obsessed with this game. And so I have to tell everybody,

you can definitely emulate it, you know, Google how to do that. Go to inputmag.com. We have a great guide on emulation. Wow, wow. But go find out how to play it. It is so good. Like it's dark and fucking weird.

And the gameplay loop is really addicting. I'm now stuck. I do have to level up about my character. Just cheat. Just cheat. Just cheat, man. Take it for me. Don't suffer don't suffer cheat

But I love it and I just wanted to give a shout out to the original person a game Well the remake I think I'm gonna be sp go. I'm I'm I'm I'm qualifying my cheating, but I will say like I think if you've you've you've done if you've if you've tried really hard to do something, you just can't, it's okay. Or if you understand the gameplay mechanics, but you're like, I don't want to do this for another seven hours to get here. No, exactly. I think it's like, all right. Skip. No, I think sometimes you just got to check the box. And then move on with your life.

I just want to mention this thing. I finally got access to beeper. Do you remember beeper? Oh, yeah. It was the founder of the Pebble Smartwatch started this new company called Beeper. And it is like a, you know, it was kind of like, this build is the holy grail sort of messaging solution. And it is like kind of, you know, a little wink to Palm, to WebOS, where they had this combined all of your kind of

chats and messaging communications in one stream where you could intermingle. You'd be like, okay, so it's like Laura's messaging me on three different services, but I can see them all grouped together, I can see all of those messages in one place. And in addition, they've also created a way to do iMessage on a non-Apple device using a computer as a relay for now, and then eventually they're going to have, soon they're going to have some kind of cloud option, which this app Air Message already does for Android, and it actually does it quite well. Actually very well. But you still need to use a system somewhere,

a computer somewhere as a relay. I happen to have lots of max lane around, so it's very easy to run one as essentially an iMessage server to my other devices. So I finally got $100 or something. Like you could sign up and you pay $100 or something for your first year. I don't know how much it is.

And I finally got access to it and it's still very early. So I don't want to give it like it's an official review, but I really, really wanted this thing to be great. I was really hoping to me, it makes a lot of sense to have a lot of my, like I've got WhatsApp conversations and signal conversations and I message and hangouts or G chat or whatever the fuck they're calling it now. And it would be great and then SMS, particularly my Android phone, I get SMS messages. It'd be great to have a place where all that stuff is kind of like combined. I will say this, at first glance, it does not reach holy grail level for what it does.

It is like really rough around the edges. And I'm very disappointed. And I don't know, maybe it'll get better. Maybe more people using it will help to kind of refine it. But like one of the big ones that I thought was like just a weird miss is, anyhow, it's like it has all your chats and things like separate columns, like yeah, they're in the same app, but then they're kind of in their own set of lists, which is like, not sure this is a huge improvement over my notifications panel. And it's basically like a different notifications panel.

But like, but one of the things I thought was really strange and it kind of just reminded me of like how great WebOS got certain things. Of course, it was a different era. It was like, it didn't, It doesn't look at all of your contacts and go like, oh, this person's the same person. It basically has no awareness of the other surface. I could have a Slack message from you and a text message from you and an I message from you and a hangout from you. You're like five Ryan's. Your phone number and email address could be in every, represented in every contact for

every one of those services, but it doesn't connect them. Which to me is like, the point. Such a weird, yes, such a weird mess. That's the point, Ilanda. It feels like that's the point. Yeah, anyhow, I just want to mention that, not a big deal. I mean, people should go check it out if it's available.

I mean, it's an interesting alternative to some of the other things that are out there, but I'm hoping they can make it better. I just don't know if I'm like, I don't know. I will say air message, kind of an incredible service if you need eye messages on a Android device. I'm now at the point where I could, with the new FaceTime stuff, I could probably stop using my iPhone all together, which I'd like to because I fucking hate it.

And all I talk was a separate Mac to run as a server. That's all it took, it was just the nerdiest shit ever that is so inconvenient. But, well, I mean, you know, this is, but this is by the way, you know, the other day when Facebook went down, we were talking about Facebook, and it was like, also WhatsApp went down, and Instagram went down,

and all these other things went down that rely on those services. And it's like, there is actually a really good argument for a standalone like WhatsApp as a concept, you know, or a signal, or I mean, signals like, the problem with signal and telegram is like, they're so designed around this idea of like,

privacy and secrecy and like, it's just, they're like, really not that user friendly for most people, like for like, your parents, they're not gonna be that user friendly, but there is a really good argument for a service like WhatsApp where you can say we're all going to be using this chat thing. It's completely agnostic in terms of platform. Like, this is a place where anybody who wants to be able to speak to, can speak to without

having to like text you directly or whatever where we can have group chats and all that stuff. The problem with WhatsApp now is that it's owned by fucking Facebook. That's like it's number one problem. That makes it, in my opinion, it just feels less secure, it feels less agnostic, it feels more like it's just going to be a vehicle for more of the Facebook bullshit, which is unfortunate. I still use it, but anyhow, the point is, uh, OS locked messaging services are bullshit. That's my final word on this podcast.

Talk BBM. Goodbye. No, no, no, BBM's cool. BBM's the only service on view. Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best, though I've just been informed that your family posted about Dave Shiphow on Facebook. you