Tomorrow - Episode 10: Paul Ford and Josh Whip the Dip

Episode Date: June 14, 2015

The enigmatic and hilarious Paul Ford returns to Tomorrow to discuss his recent, critically acclaimed Businessweek story "What Is Code?" The two men actually manage to stay on topic for a little while, but the conversation soon devolves (evolves?) into a whirlwind discussion about commenters, Batman, and Nokia. In addition, listeners will have a front row seat to the birth of a unique, high-concept restaurant. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow I'm your your host, Joshua Topolsky. Today on the podcast, we discuss... Blaschers, Dippers, and Slam Balls. But first, a word from our sponsor. This episode of Tomorrow with Joshua Topolsky is brought to you by Nadex, Binary Options Trading. Say you think the price of a global resource is going to go up. You can go to nadex.com and make a trade on that.

You're not buying stock. You're trading on where you think the price will be by a certain time. Trade the most popular financial markets with thousands of short-term contracts listed daily. Go to nadex.com and get started trading binary options. That's nadex-n-a-d-e-x.com. Futures options and swap trading involves risk and may not be appropriate for all investors. If you work for yourself, save up to 50% for an entire year on the new QuickBooks self-employed. It helps separate your business and personal expenses so you can quickly track what you spent for work and what you spend on yourself. Quickbook self-employed helps

take the guesswork out of estimated federal quarterly taxes, which I presume are extremely complicated. So come to Ag's time, you know how much money to set aside for Uncle Sam, who is not your uncle, at least biologically speaking, and how much stays in your pocket try quick book self-employed and receive 50% off at Tryselfemployed.com slash Joshua My guest today is a man that really needs no introduction especially now He didn't need an introduction last time he was on the show, but boy, does he not need one today? But I have to introduce him because otherwise how will you know who I'm talking to? I've got Paul Ford with me in the studio. Hi, Paul. Josh, I'm back. That was fained excitement for Paul Ford. Paul Ford author of the Epic,

what is code issue of business week? also it is on the internet, on Bloomberg Business available at Bloomberg.com. Otherwise known as Bloomberg. Everybody's talking about it. Everybody is writing about it. I was just interviewed by, well, by the time this airs, it will have run by the Huffington Post, they're writing something on it, vice wrote something on it. Who else is written on it? A lot of people. Let me just quickly explain. I'm young and I'll let you talk. And I think last time you were working on it,

or you were just about to start to come into the office or something and do it. But Paul wrote, Josh T. Rangel, the editor of Bloomberg Business Week, otherwise known as Business Week. At some point asked you to write this. He said, I don't know how code works. This is the kind of short story. And he said, well, you write something on it. And you wrote, like originally, when you first told me about it, it was like 20,000 words.

It was getting there, right? Like, I was like, this is going to be crazy. Yeah. Well, what happened was I, we started talking about it. And Josh said, oh, I've got Paul writing this thing. And I was like, we got to do something cool in the web. And I was like, what's he writing? And he said, what is code? And I was like, oh, I've got Paul writing this thing and I was like, we got to do something cool on the web. And I was like, what's he writing? And he said, what is code? And I was like, oh, you could do some really cool stuff with the thing about code. And then we both think it started harassing you because it turned out it was going to happen. It had to happen. And anyhow, but you wrote this thing.

It turned into a 38,000 word, basically a book, which is now in a single issue of Bloomberg Business Week, which I don't think has ever been done. In that magazine. No, no, no, that magazine. Yeah. And it's a sprawling edutainment piece on the web. Although I'm wondering, we keep saying that. I'm wondering if like some 97 year old guy is going to show up and be like, with the original Business Week single.

Yeah, I did a single issue on concrete in 1941. It's what is concrete. What is concrete? Now That would be good. That's like the man in the blue overalls. Welcome that direction, right? I don't know. Who is the man in the top play? The man in the blue overalls.

I'm assuming that's somebody involved in the pouring of the concrete. We don't know a lot about that. We don't know. Why don't you look into the world of concrete? Actually, my wife works in construction project management and there's a rule in her house so we don't talk too much about concrete and I don't talk too much about code.

Is that a thing that happens accidentally? You're like, you choose like, we got this new badge of concrete in. And it is so good. You can only hear so much about like, you know, the way that a roof is put on. I disagree. I feel like I could talk about a roof.

They're fascinating when you think about it. Do you want to come live in my house? No, I don't. But, and I seriously, and I just want you to know, I seriously considered him from the room. You've been in my house. I have been to your house. That's true. I've seen your beautiful children. Thank you. You have a parent, Paul. A lot of people don't know this about Paul. He has two beautiful children.

I do. They are very cute. They were napping when I arrived at your house. They're three and a half years old. And then they woke up and the house was full of people, which must be very upsetting for them. I know, you know, they're used to a lot of people though. They're twins. They go to daycare.

They're used to. We had Zelda reason. We had some people over the house over the weekend, a couple of weekends ago. And she was napping when everybody arrived. And then she woke up and she was very shy. Not like she's very outgoing, but she was very shy and kind of shell shocked

at the whole scene. Yeah. I don't know. She's getting a great, I look at pictures of her. She's getting a great, slightly pissed off face. She's not, she's ready to give you some, too. I turns out we look a lot alike. I mean, I have, I just put a picture on Instagram of me as a child, which my mother sent me where I'm wearing a shirt that says, I believe

the shirt says just says super person all over it. One word, like a compound word, super person, which is an amazing late seventies really amazing word that we should be using more often. That stuff was like a yellow shirt and it's almost like written on by hand. Yeah, but it's red. It's red striped. You can see it on my Instagram feed Instagram.com slash Josh. What's Polsky? Oh, thank you.

Make sure to make sure to jump on. I got my phone turned off right now since I'm talking. I wish you could do it. I'm right. That was to the listener. It is. Is it GRM? It's gram.com.

Oh. Yeah. It's also available as is it GRM? It's GRAM.com. Oh, yeah, it's also available as an app on the app store. Is it Joshua Topolsky one word? That's right. And he's tall. He's really writing this down, by the way. How bad.

How happy are your nerds that listen to the show that we stopped talking about babies and started talking about URLs? They're definitely feeling a relief. Like, I can feel like confusing and upsetting. Yeah, I don't know. I don't care about babies and started talking about URLs. They're definitely feeling a relief. I can feel like confusing and upsetting. Yeah, I don't know. I don't care about babies. Yeah. I used to get that a lot on the verge cast when we did the verge cast.

Like, if I went off script, which I often did, because, frankly, it got pretty boring to just talk about gadgets. Right. Those listeners just seemed really bossy. Like, why were verge people so bossy? Yeah, they were bossy. Like, is this new audience bossy? No, they want. Is is this new audience bossy uh no uh well I don't know I mean I don't have gotten any bossy vibes from them right I mean I haven't

gotten any um I actually haven't gotten any like demands for things they want it's an interesting like I think things change that way like yeah the virgin that community became famous for being like, and then the comments too. Is that true? Yeah, sure. You just, I didn't know that. Tell me more about this. I always identify, like, verge comments were not, you know, famous to me, like, not like, you're this that man, the author of what is code. Verge commenters is now talking about you. I can't wait. You know, what am I doing? This is madness. What did you say? What did we do? No, all I'm saying is like, back in the day,

like you get like somebody would write about an HTC device and there would just be like anger. Oh yeah. It'd be serious. Oh yeah, no, I was a famous, I reviewed the Lumia, a Lumia phoenix, Microsoft, a Windows phoenix device, a Nokia, Nokia made Windows phoenix. I think it was the Lumia 900 and I. And I gave it a seven out of 10.

And people went fucking nuts. I mean, they went. It was like, I thought I was worried. I was actually concerned for my physical safety. Yeah. They were so mad that I did not. And I don't even know why. I mean, I know why they wanted you to hate it. No, they wanted me to love it. Oh, they want you to love it. Yeah. They were. These to hate it. No, they wanted me to love it. Oh, they wanted you to love it. Yeah, they were, these were Microsoft slash,

Microsoft. So if you go back, actually, by the way, I like that you refer to it back in the day, like the verge has been around long enough now that we can talk about it back in the day. That makes me feel like, Sure. That makes me feel really good about something

that I made, like, oh, that legacy. It has, it's a thing now, anyhow, but what was I going to say? What was I talking about? Oh, Nokia fanboys. I was going to talk about Nokia fanboys. I was gonna talk about Nokia fanboys. God, this is dirty. This should be the perfect, if you really,

like, how come Josh never talks about tech anymore? This is perfect for you. Nokia fanboys used to be the craziest, most fervent, because they were also like national, like they were like Finnish. It's like the opera browser fans. They were like Finnish nationalists as well. Yeah, yeah.

So there was like a very pride right? Well, Nokia is finished, right? So I just screw that up. Let's assume it's a country with that. I just screw that up. It's Nokia finish. I need to know your suite is. Yes, it's finished.

It is finished. Okay, I was the first second. I was like, wait a second, are they Danish? This is by the way, this is how far Nokia has fallen that I can't even really remember. It even has like, what country is it? Right now there is a Finnish Nokia fanboy writing an email. Now he's listening to this.

He's so mad what I couldn't even, how dare I disrespect his country and his brand. It's a Facebook question. And yeah, Nokia fanboys used to be the craziest. They were like, they were the most beset, like they had the most Nokia phones weren't cool. They couldn't compete with the iPhone. It was when like the iPhone was really taking off and Android was becoming a thing

and Microsoft couldn't even get a word in Edgewise and Nokia was like hobbling along with like, Symbian, and you remember Symbian? Yeah, I remember Symbian. Who doesn't? I mean, probably like everybody's first phone was actually Symbian was one of the ones where you'd go and you'd build some mobile product

or some mobile anything. And it would be on the list, like Blackberry Beauty. You'd have iPhones and Android and Blackberry Beauty. And then it'd be like, that's 40 years. We also need to think about Symbian because you know, it's about 400 trillion people. No, because it was in yours. And in developing countries and whatever.

And then it would just always get crossed off like about six months. We're not gonna have budget for Symbian. Yeah, the developers would be like, maybe do Blackberry. Yeah. Blackberry was like, it was like a weird, kluji, Blackberry, the original Blackberry OS

was like Java, runtime, some kind of, some of the gulfies. So the nasty, anyhow, but, but so, so Nokia fanboys were terrible. And then, and then what happened is Microsoft announced this huge partnership. Nokia said, we're abandoning our attempts at our own software, huge blow to the finish

population and to the spirit of finish phone lovers. And then they were like, we're going to put windows on it, which at that point was like an almost, I mean, it didn't even exist as Windows phone. Right. And so they had this like really interesting problem. And then Microsoft, and boys were second, second craziest. It was like Nokia and then Microsoft and them together. What's the analogy for being a Microsoft fanboy? It's sort of like, like, you like to see it. There's a few things I'm thinking here.

Yeah. Okay, the first thing I'm thinking is like, Finland is a crazy country. Yeah. We had, first of all, it's, it had a very complicated relationship with everyone during World War Two sure then it brought us Nokia yeah, then you know Nokia originally made tires. Oh Tires okay, I was that Ikea maybe Nokia was a fisher some fish in the slow go no and

Yamaha was The Japanese yeah, that's what you know they're You know they're very good. Thank you very tired right now. Oh, it's just a little tuckered out. Do you want some coffee? No, because I think that'll just end poorly. I think that would end well. Last time we were drinking. All right. Let's drink. I'd love a drink. Okay. Let's talk about this. Can we get a drink in here? What kind of what would you like? You had whiskey last time. Whatever they got. I don't care. Paul Oh, to kill it with wine. You want to do a shot of tequila? I want to do a shot of tequila.

You want to do a shot of tequila, yeah. Okay, all right, well, we're waiting for the one. Do you think that'll go, maybe two shots of tequila, a double. And do you think that'll go well with the strong coffee? I should get coffee too. Sorry, coffee and tequila. It's the coffee isn't made though, it's awesome. Yes, this is good, this is good.

You guys couldn't hear this, but the tequila's coming, coffee is gonna take a little bit longer. But I think once you've had the tequila in your sister, you're gonna be ready for a little coffee. Oh, yeah. Anybody knows, that's the perfect chase. Yeah, we're gonna have a lot of fun on this one. We're gonna get crazy.

They'll wake you up a little bit. I'm also tired. I only got about five hours of sleep. Yeah, I don't even know what sleep is. You haven't been able to, we should actually get back on, because we can talk about no kill all day long. We really, really can, but we don't know anything about it. Well, I know, I only know a little bit, but I should know more, but of course,

I've a lot of my, I have a bad memory. I just sort of, everything that's in the past gets, gets removed from my brain. I don't even, it's like I can't access it. I think all I'm saying is that like, it was amazing that, you know, your old podcast, your old, that old commenting culture, it didn't, it hasn't followed you over

here yet. Well, I don't have comments on this podcast. Well, on SoundCloud actually, yeah, no, it hasn't. But then again, I'm not saying I'm not making the right now when I'm done, now that I'm talking bad mouth, I know, okay, believe me, you'll get a little bit of, you get some units of people. I'm getting, I'm getting Magnus, who Swedish thought that it was necessary to interrupt to say this would be a good moment to tell people to email the podcast.

I guess hate males what you're asking for. Email Magnus at tomorrhopodcast.com. He would like to receive any and all despicable comments and maybe some depictions of him being violently attacked by an animal. receive any and all despicable comments and maybe some depictions of him being violently attacked by an animal. We have to find a picture of Magnus Hendricks and online. It's the right pronunciation. Sorry Paul. No, it's just going to also say that Josh's Instagram is Instagram.com slash Joshua to Paul's.

They, I do actually have a lot of fervent gadget fans. Have you ever noticed? Is that where the two phones come in camera? It's where many things have come from. Everybody now, this is now a thing. I don't even know if people are joking or not on my Instagram because every time I would take a picture of something people would say, what phone is this? What phone did you take this with? Because I'm always always going back and forth

between phones and getting comedy on the camera quality of the phones. And now everybody including my good dear friends and possibly members of my family will just comment what phone is this and then they'll start arguing with each other about and like Magnus has a thing that he does. Literally on every Instagram post he says he says what is this or where is this or who is this it's really good stuff. It's good. And he have a people do this. Actually, for a long time, they were like,

why don't you have a podcast? And now that's become a thing where people are like, bring the podcast back. Like, map you can and we'll go, we'll say stuff, like bring the podcast back. Even though he knows, I have a podcast. So with you, it's just that people like to create just like a slow, steady grade of continual annoyance.

Why do they like to do that to you in particular? I don't know. I think I've made myself, I mean, I like talking to people and I think people feel that they can say whatever they want to me. I hope that's the case. But it's fun to burn you a little bit. There's no way around.

Well, I've gotten mad on the internet too. I've had some like Twitter flare ups where I get like start screaming to people. You know, I think I've actually like, I've managed to, I've contained that pretty well now. I have a like not a great, I have a like pretty bad temper I think. Right, but I've managed to, I've contained that pretty well now. I have a, like, not a great, I have a, like, pretty bad temper, I think. Right, but there's something about you.

There's something about you. Yeah, well, just, you first taste a Rage Hall and you're just, yeah, I said, can't put you, you get, then you get a six pack. I remember in high school when you have to convince a really angry guy in his 30s to go buy some, right? You slip in a few extra bucks to get you a pack

of a six pack rage a haul. Yeah That's good stuff. Is that original material? No, that's right here. It's because I'm tired Straight off the Right out of there. This is a lot like this is a lot like to like well Traveled comedians really. Oh, it's exactly like that.

Yeah, and then really. It's like sign felt, or like sign felt in Howard Stern. Oh, beyond, really. Yeah, it's like, it's like, cause those guys are burdened by so much success. Right. And we're just like, we don't have, we're unburdened by success.

We don't have to carry that around. Well, all that's gonna change now that you have written the encyclopedic, what is code? Which we should talk about. Right, so you know, it's weird about writing a thing like this. So should we talk about what it is? Yeah, let's talk about what it is. Oh, here comes our tequila.

Oh, yes. Oh, this looks good. Lime and everything. Oh, wow. I love this. Are we not going to shrink this whole thing, are we? No, we'll take a little step at a time Okay, get in there. Oh

Thank you paul for Delicious this is delicious. I'm afraid maybe bring the bottle just in case This is quite good. I don't normally drink tequila only drink it here on this podcast All right, that's perking me up. What is, what is code? So, really about a year ago, Josh here in Gal, as you mentioned, editor of the magazine, Business Week, says Paul, explain code.

You're off the mic. About a year ago, Josh. Do you want to lean? We can get, Paul, can you get that? Fun, fun, right here. Are you sure? I know where I am, I know what I'm doing. Paul you get that? Fun, right here. I'm here, yeah. I know where I am, I know what I'm doing. Paul's the engineer that I'm talking to, by the way,

if you guys hear me saying, Paul, and it seems like I'm telling Paul to fix the mic. Paul, get fixed that one. I do it. Do all of it. Yeah, that's fine. Anyway, I wrote, let's cut to the chase. Okay.

At the instigation of Josh Turingelli, editor of Business Week, I wrote this very, very big article to explain what code is to the Business Week population. Not to coders, but to actually to middle managers who have to deal with software and don't know what's going on. That's a specific question from Josh because he's managing all these software projects throughout the course of his career. He doesn't know exactly what's happening, which might be one of the reasons you're there

because you seem to know what's up. And now that you've ridden the piece, I know I'm no longer needed it, Bloomberg. That's it. I do think, well, I think that's true. And I honestly, I only know probably slightly more than Josh does about actual code. But I think that's an interesting it's an interesting thing to admit. And also it's an interesting way to solve your problem. Most people can't can't commission a 38,000 word piece to explain something to them. But Josh can. He has that power. Yeah. So so so that and then yeah, then I came to the company and then we

talked to we got to this but anyhow, but then there's a because there's a web portion of it. Yeah, so so so that and then yeah, then I came to the company and then we talked to we got to this but anyhow But then there's because there's a web portion of it. Yeah, and it was very random for a while like nobody knew what that we were doing I don't know I don't know if before did you guys talk about the web thing before there was it was literally like Maybe we'll do a special issue be cool to have like a big piece It wasn't it wasn't gonna be one man tells the story of code in Thousands and thousands of words throughout an entire magazine and it will be turned into the craziest web thing you have ever seen Yes That's so that's cool then I guess I'm feel good about that because I did think it was an amazing collaboration

I mean, you know, I got there and we did this new site and we have all these new digital team and doing work It's, you know, we're doing a lot of stuff on the web now that we weren't doing before. But, and this is not a criticism, but it's like big corporate web work. Like it's got a CMS stuff and it's like, what do you mean?

Like the work that you're doing there to revamp bloomberg.com. It's like, it's got to be, and, or what's the other one? It's business like, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what do you mean? You just, you launch something, Bloomberg.com. Bloomberg.com. We merge, we merge business week in Bloomberg.com into a single thing.

The, the process of doing that, coming up with the design, getting it built and so on. That's a very different process than what happened to create. What is code, that's correct. That's correct. Well, the, the nice thing is having done something similar at the verge It was it was it I think that's maybe one of the reasons they wanted me to come and do it right But this thing let the freak flag fly yes, I mean that's I people should go look at it just because it's so crazy The peace the peace. Yeah, like just look at it on the web like it does things that no other web piece does I agree with that and that was

We I actually remember saying the thing that I thought I wanted it to, originally I was like, what if we, because when Josh told me about the thing you were right now, I was like, oh, we could do this thing where it's like you have to code to get through the piece. And that obviously is an idea that sort of would have been not quite ideal because people don't want to, but we had like, I would say, we had like a console, you could like probe, you could like, sort of that.

We could sort of that. Yeah. I mean, there's an underlying logic to it that sort of could support such as that. So the, the idea original idea, because we were getting very high concept and before she went on maternity leave, my friend, Janet Pascon was there and we were all working the other, uh, Tofe Tucker and Steph Davidson and Bernadette. Yeah, and Adam. Adam and I'm just trying to, I've been there for two weeks. I mean, there are a lot of people. I mean, there actually is a small, actually, there are a lot of people that worked on this, but

they, it's also small by comparison to I think other projects. The web team was small in this. And it's sort of like, so the idea is we do these tutorials and you'd solve coding problems, then you'd get to read more of my exciting That was that was the concept and we kind of missed on that one because it was just like people don't want to do work to read Yeah, it was like it was it wasn't especially once it became up. It was like gonna be a standalone It was like well 38,000 words plus so then we kind of changed we changed on the web We just turned it it just kind of became I say we I became very passive at this point because my job became too, just, so what happened? There's a meeting.

I can I talk about the meeting. Yeah. Where Tofe was talking about like some complicated problems that were being figured out. And Paul was silent on the phone. I think you were basically silent the whole time because you were, you dialed in and then he was like, I can't be a blocker. I have to edit this piece Yeah, you know like you know you did I I get it I mean because the once it became its own thing it was

It hurt for me because I really love you know Of course what I want to do is build the website and make it crazy But what actually happened was Brian or set in jim aley or the editors On this piece. That mean email and they were like, great news. We were going to give you the entire magazine. And I, my, I was there, my wife told the story. I went and ran. I didn't run.

I just stumbled over to the sofa and I put a blanket over my head immediately. Really? Yeah, I just went, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I just went, oh. I said, get why you and Toef got along. I just was like, no. Cause Toef during one of those meetings, I saw him start to try to crawl into his computer out of stress, like he was actually trying to climb into, inside, I think I then shut the laptop on himself. So I can understand there's a sort of, I mean,

it's just, I know, you know, I used to work in a magazine like I know what producing a magazine is like and I knew that I would like, I'm telling you guys, I don't want to block your web production. What this meant is that if I had a bad day, I could slow down 20 or 30 people. So suddenly I realized that I needed to have like a solid month of really good days. Yeah, which is hard to pull off. It's hard for anybody doing anything, let alone something that really is difficult. And I needed to start fact checking my own stuff.

I needed to start like all sorts of crazy. Yeah, you were like quoting, you're just quoting things that you sort of remember. Yeah, well, there's something there, right? Like, you always do that when you're writing. No, you do, you're like, I think he said, like, when you're in Georgia, that's Georgia Washington once famously Yeah, well, there's some of that, right? Like, you always do that when you're writing. No, you do. You're like, I think he said, like, we did, and George Washington once famously said,

and you're like, wait a second, he didn't say that. I was, I made that up. So, so anyway, all this goes on, it's really good, it's really awesome. This giant magazine comes out. Yeah. And it's all about, it's a double issue. Double issue, it's all about,

I wrote the whole freaking thing, but there's also like, you know, 50 people worked on it. Lots of little pieces of it are written by other people. It's edited, so it's all about code, I wrote the whole freaking thing, but there's also like, you know, 50 people worked on it. Lots of little pieces of it are written by other people. It's edited, so it's a lot of marginalia. Right. Good is. Yeah. No, it's huge. In the magazine team, I mean, once they decided to do the single, well,

that was also a new complexity for us because once they decided to do it as a single thing, then there was a lot more, there was new art that was being done, and there was the Marginalia, and we had all these footnotes. I mean, the original versions of it were so chaotic by comparison. I mean, it's truly the power of editing is something that really is, it's a fierce force. What was fascinating, so Business Week runs Lena Means, one of the best teams I've ever worked with. What's fascinating is being part of the giant digestive system of Bloomberg.

Information comes into that giant company and passes through and then they're like, you're on TV. Did they give you a terminal? Did you go on TV? No, yeah, I went on Charlie Rose. Oh, you did? Yes, so the way you go on Charlie Rose. What? Yeah. When did that happen? It was on last night. Oh my god. What is it, Eric? Lastly. Oh, what? Yeah. So on PBS though. I guess. I know the night. Oh my God, what is it air? Last night. Oh, what? Yeah. So on PBS though. I guess so.

I think the deal is that it goes on PBS and then the next day it's on Bloomberg. Okay. Anyhow, so I would explain why I boycott a PBS because of down to Naby. Yeah, sure, no. Once Matthew was killed. Oh, sorry.

I forgot this. Glad you explained that. Yeah. So, but for people who have never had this experience, was killed. Sorry. I forget this. Glad you explained that. But for people who have never had this experience, it is, it's really weird because I'm like, I'm working at Bloomberg Business Week, Crape Place, really nice people. This is all very genuine. And I think people in magazine publishing in an environment like Bloomberg are like, we get free candy every day. I mean, they're just sort of like, oh, this is crazy.

We have jobs, we have to work really hard, but we actually have like magazine jobs doing a real magazine. It's cool. And then you're like, then there's all these other things going on, but they're on like the next floor. So the process of going to Charlie Rose,

as I was on with Josh, Taryn Gowell, you're the editor. Yeah. Is they just walk you to a different floor and you go into a black room and Charlie Rose is there. And you don't know if he's ever left or. No, he's there a lot. He might be there all the time.

He's there all the time. I think he might have a sweet somewhere. Sure, I mean, I'm sure there's like an executive something. You got a lot of guy like Charlie Rose, take a shower at work. It's possible. He takes several showers, I understand. I hope so.

I have no idea. I don't know. Please don't. Is there any, you think in that building, there's like a big secret executive? Absolutely. I think there are many secrets. The most important secret of all in the building to me

is that there's a set of the, the sort of fire escape stairs that run in through the, sort of the center of the building. Yeah. Which are, this is my favorite thing about the Bloomer building. If you haven't been to the Bloomer building, let me try to describe it for you. It's like a Star Trek city. It's like when they would go, it's like, you couldn't afford, you couldn't afford to actually have, like, you couldn't

do the CGI. I mean, back in the next generation, there was a CGI. This is Star Trek city. But it's like, but like you bit there like we have to film somewhere that looks like a totally futuristic space city. It's the it's where it's like where the school would be. Yeah, right. It'd be like space school. Right. Yeah, it's there in space school. So that's kind of what the Bloomberg building is like it's like space a space city or space school, but for an episode of Star Trek. So it's like not an entire actual city. It's like they've repurposed a very futuristic cool space to be at the Star Trek city. Anyhow, so that's what it's like, and then there's like a whole floor of snacks and things,

and they've got a curved escalator they have. We have a curved escalator, which is one of only three, I believe, in the world. I mean, you know. And they have a near the curved escalator is a cumulus cloud made of metal that floats where the curved escalator is a cumulus cloud made of metal that floats where the curved escalator is. There's light installations.

It's just like a funky futuristic place. It really is. But it's also a set. Sometimes you go in and there's actually a woman saying, welcome to the Bloomberg. Usually. Often. And she says it over and over again. Yeah.

I don't know about that. I haven't seen that. I've seen it. Anyhow, my favorite point, the point that I was getting to, I'm sorry to be rambling about the share of parts of a building. Yeah, let's be honest. Is there is a set of essentially the fire escape stairs, sort of in the core of the building, which when you get into them and there's signs like red doors, like do not enter, I'm sure now tomorrow I'll go and try to open the door.

I know tomorrow Saturday, so I don't have to worry about that. But at some point, when you walk into this staircase, it is like a, it's a building made of concrete. There's like, there's, you can see the metal, not what you call it, that holds up the building, and the building's made up, what is that? The frame. The frame.

You can see the metal, the huge metal frame of the building with like dust on it, and you can see like fire proofing, the fire proofing like padding that they do. And it just is like a building. It's just like a regular building. Like you went into this like regular dirty New York building. And you can use those stairs to go between floors,

which is actually quite difficult at the Bloomberg building. You can use it to quickly go between floors. That's my favorite thing. I had, I used that method to go down to record the video because I had to do, not had to, I had the beautiful opportunity of, you write the article and then you do the voiceover for the video and then you go down and you do the TV,

then you do two more pieces of TV, then you do the radio show. Yeah, this is the power and then you go to Charlie Rose. It's so much synergy. It's like so much control. It's the power of Bloomberg. This is one of the reasons I went to Bloomberg is because like, oh yeah, upstairs there's a TV network.

It's really interesting. It's really interesting. It's where they make the magazine. There's a booth behind the magazine thing where they do digital video or whatever. It's like crazy. All right, I'm gonna be a take a break. Okay, we're gonna, I'm gonna talk,

I wanna talk more about code when we come back. But yeah, we're gonna take a break and we'll back with with Paul Ford. If you work for yourself, you can save up to 50% on an entire year of QuickBooks self-employed. Great product. You've used QuickBooks Album Blend. I am not a major QuickBooks user, but my wife is a bookkeeper. She loves books. Part-time. She was, she, uh, What is that like, like, you watch the books?

No, no, so like, you go to her and you say, we've completely screwed up all of our accounting for the last three years and we need to get everything together. And you're like, QuickBooks this for me. That's literally what she's like, I will get your QuickBooks together. Get up in QuickBooks and fix whatever we do wrong. Yeah, it's almost a verb. Well, QuickBooks self-employed help separate your business

and personal expenses so you can quickly track what you spent for work and what you spent on yourself. It looks good, too. I look over at your shoulder, I'm like, that's a nice way to work. Kind of a handsome platform. It is good. Friends as those groceries you bought for your next catering gig won't get mixed up with the food you bought

for the cookout with friends this weekend. I mean, how many times does that happen? It happens. I put my catering stuff over here, I put my barbecue stuff over here, and then next thing you know, the whole, my whole crew is eating my catering stuff, and I'm at the catering gig with a bunch of ribs. You know where that's really bad too,

is any serious, rabbinical situation where you need to make sure that all the food is kept separate. You gotta keep that, gotta keep them separate. So, a quick book tie. Incredibly, incredibly useful. No, it is. Quick book self-employed also helps you take the guesswork out of your estimated quarterly and your end taxes to come tax time.

You know, how much money to set aside for Uncle Sam and how much stays in your pocket? No, it's just, I'm a corporation. My estimated is always a pain. It is done in Quick Book. My life is honestly. Maybe you use something that is going to do it the work for you. Yeah, the happiness that I have because I don't have to worry about these things is because I have someone who really uses and focuses on QuickBooks in my life. QuickBooks provides you the tools to help you maximize

deductions like home office and mileage, which I would be terrible at, so this is very handy. It's so good to let the computer help you with that stuff. Yeah, so you can keep more of your hard-earned money, which frankly, as a man who just wrote 40,000 words, your money is hard-earned. It really was, no, it's got a bill for that in fact. I have nothing to do with that, don't bring it to me. Find out what QuickBooks self-employed can do for you

and receive 50% off at triceelfemployed.com slash Joshua. That's triceelfemployed.com slash Joshua. That's TriSelfEmployed.com slash Joshua. That's pretty good URL. It is a good URL. I like anything with Joshua in it. I understand that. Anyway, look, it's a good product. It's the standard. You got to use QuickBooks. This episode of Tomorrow with Joshua Topolsky is brought to you by Nadex, Binary Options Trading. The world's markets are changing, so are innovations in how we trade them. With limited risk and a simple yes-no design, Nadex Binary Options offer an affordable, exciting new way to participate in the markets.

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If you're wrong, you lose what you paid up front, but no more. Trade from your mobile, tablet, or PC. Go to nadex.com. That's n-a-d-e-x.com. Future's options and swaps trading involve risk and may not be appropriate for all investors. It's nice to kill a... The tequila seems to just, it went away. I think he's waiting to get the coffee all together.

That makes sense. It's really okay. We're back with Paul Ford. We were just wondering where the Kila went. And the coffee, I'm a little subdued. I'd like to apologize. No, I know, it's fine. Listen, you've had a crazy week.

That a long week. And even a long month. I've had a long month. This is the hardest thing I've listened to this way. It's going on. I have a really good character from a long month. I've had a long month. This is the hardest thing I've listened to this voice. That's going on. I have like a character from a Batman movie. I know. You're Batman.

I love that movie. I love that movie. It's just literally under me. Everybody. Everybody. The last one was everybody had a voice. Urban re-rubber. Yeah, no, it's smart.

It's smart. It's smart because I think no, Christopher Nolan was like, gotta give people voices. Yeah. You you know like the Joker had a voice He was like hey, I was doing that and then Batman's like what are you doing? You know, and then Bane had his thing Like It was a lot I'm done. We got coffee and water to go. Is that how it went?

It was a lot like that. It was hot, man. It was always like, I'm man. It's like, ooh. Look at me. Look at me. I'm okay.

Right. That's baby pavin, have any conversation? That was the whole thing. It was so loud though, because it wasn't that it was this. I'm dead with this, a lot of things. It was impossible. You're in such real thing. I did it was impossible. You're in such physical pain.

That's Batman talking. It's true that when he spoke, it's like surround. If you're in a surround sound situation, it's like so bad. Everything else is mono and then Batman's all over your ears. Oh, it was just like this bow rumbling sound and a man talking into socks. And then somebody's like, no, you've got the wrong idea about that.

And that's being talked to you only only the women could be heard. They're like, hey, I'm a person. Exactly. And the matter is I think is, by the way, I think is a sign of Chris Renollan's massive sexism. He's a complicated, you know, what is he's pretty, what do you think about in her cell? I cried during interstellar.

Touchy. I thought you're so I thought about it in her cell. He reminded me of signs by M. Night Shyamalan a lot. And if you go back and look at those two things side by side, there are striking, similar to your member signs. Yeah, no, down to the farmhouse, the farmhouse, the family, the son and the daughter. Oh, man.

You just blew the lid right off the stage. I farmhouse, the family, the son and the daughter. Oh, man, you just blew the litter off this thing. I don't want to like ruin interstellar for anybody, but the mysterious happenings that are actually tied to a kind of spiritual connection through the ages and through the time and space and apparently in signs through a spiritual layer that we can't possibly that and understand. That is the next milk Gibson. No, but listen, you know, you may be onto something.

It is Matthew McConney. The next milk Gibson. How does he feel about Jews in a moment and people of color? We don't know. We don't know. We'll be right back. Is this the part where we added out? Is this the part we have to cut out?

I think we keep this part because it's, I mean, you Jewish. I hope. I was raised Jewish. I'm an atheist. Yes, as you may know, which means I only believe in God when my plane feels like it's crashing. No, but even then, you know what's probably being an atheist is like when your plane feels

like it's crashing, which yesterday I was on a plane that felt like it was crashing several times. I think any bump at all is like, I'm done. I don't. And I imagine, I start to imagine is like, what will the reports on TV sound like about this. I think what's the flight number? And then I go you know United Airlines flight 860 went down over Duluth or whatever. Is that a place Duluth? Yeah. Anyhow that's what I hear in my head is the newscast. I immediately think about

all the logins that I need to communicate. Yeah, it's like, I actually, you know, I realize whatever I'm gonna leave behind will be very messy and complicated for everybody. I know, but it's just like, they're gonna find things that they didn't need to see. Especially because, oh yeah, they will. But especially because I turned on like, you know,

good two-factor authentication and everything. Oh, that's a nice idea. Yeah, that's a nice idea. How is my wife gonna like turn off the AWS account? There's gonna be a lot of like, faxing of like a birth certificate. Yeah, it's a nice. How is my wife gonna turn off the AWS account? There's gonna be a lot of like, vaccine of like a birth certificate. Yeah, it's really really.

Anyhow, but so anytime I'm on a flight, this is the problem with atheism, it's just completely has nothing to do with the code issue. Or you, but anyhow, I'm gonna talk about it. It's, you know, you're like, oh, I'll pray to God, but you're like, yeah, that's not gonna work because I know that there's nobody listening. And then you're like, I got nothing. I'll just white knuckle this right and that's what I do and I think I think I think

Well, at least Zelda exists now. Yeah, you just kind of about created coffee Of course, then Laura was like, yeah, but you won't get to see her grow up I was like, yeah, but still it's like way to take away my one thing I go hold on to when I feel the I think death is bearing down I think about that a lot because there's so many ways I can die, and then I think about, so many. Fatherless kids.

And then I think about like, oh man, if I die, that means my daughter sleeps with the worst dudes for like five years. Maybe or she's like, you know what, my memory of my father was one of a great protector,

and somebody who really looked out for me. No, no, no. I'm gonna take care of myself and respect myself because that's what my father would have wanted. That's what I will tell myself. I know. I think it's a muter flight from LA. Yeah, no, if I die, it's like my son is caught with cyber spray paint and like age 17

in Bushway. That's like when you can spray paint over things and it turns them into like Minecraft objects. That's exactly what's gonna happen. Right? No, totally. No, totally. And people have like hollow invisibility suits.

Good stuff. Yeah, kids are gonna be like, when they're, you know, I don't think they're gonna care about screens. I think they're gonna think screens are laying. Screens are gonna be, no, they're gonna think that everything is basically an interactive surface. That's exactly like they'll just be in this room and they'll just be like, I don be like, how come I'm gonna change this

because there's like a tapestry on this table? I mean, like how do I change this wallpaper? And they're gonna be like doing some like grab motion to pinch and throw it out? My friend worked with Google on this thing. It's under embargo or anything? No, no, no, it just came out. It came out at whatever they're doing.

Oh, is the clothing? No, it's like that. They have a new thing that's got radar, it came out at whatever. Oh, the clothing? No, it's like that. They have a new thing, it's got radar, it's little. And you can do, it's making a little twisty motion with my fingers, I'm talking to that. It's true like he's twiddling an ob. And that's what it does, it lets you turn the volume up and down, but you're not touching anything.

What is it? I can't remember the name of it, it's a little tiny radar device. What are you touching? What, you don't touch anything? Have you ever used the connect? No. But no, but that's the thing.

This is radar, it's sort of closed surface, so I would just be here like messing with the microphone just by kind of like, by being like two inches away. Yeah, you think radar is the answer. I don't think anything's the answer. I mean, actually the question is, will it be everything around us is a surface or you never see anything for real

because you're in VR, just doing all your stuff in VR like. I don't think so. I think people like augmented stuff and I think that like the like I have a short story I want to read along these lines. I'm not going to sell it out. Don't don't talk about it. No, that's your that's your bread and butter.

I suppose they thank you for this coffee. This coffee is very good. Is it a good ponos? How do I make a great cup of coffee and a delicious tequila beverage? I know we got tequila. I've got water coffee and tequila. You can never havequila beverage. I know, I've got tequila. I've got water, coffee, and tequila. You can never have too much. I think you can never have too many beverages.

No, you really can. It's easier to mix beverages than in this food. Do you ever go, you're working in Bloomberg. That's true. Do you ever think to yourself? In case we hadn't established that. Yeah, do you ever think to yourself, I'm gonna have, like, I'll have a little diacoch

and then I'll be like, mm, you know what? Oh, suicide. No, that's not actually what I think. I think like, I'll have a little die coke and then I'll be like, mm, you know what? Suicide. No, that's not actually what I think. I think like, no, not the act. I think they call that a suicide when you have all the different flavors. Well, then it's okay, so it's not just, all I want is like the minute being.

I don't know if I've never done that. So I'm gonna be, I'm just like, I don't know, or like a little bit of ginger. I'm like, let's get the real stuff in there. But the lemonade, lemonade from that sort of situation is always gonna be a disappointment, anything. No, because you're just like, this is exciting, this is Diet Coke Plus.

But we have some, oh, I see, you wanna get a little extra. It's a little son I'm like two flavors were, instead I had one. I'm gonna talk about an idea that I'm never gonna use. I'm gonna say it out loud on this, because you know what, I talk like- You wanna put under creative comments?

Well, I'd like to, I'd like, no, actually, if you use this idea, I need 10% of anything. Okay. I'm going to say right now, trademarking this thing. This is CC 10%. I want at least 10%, but there will be a negotiation if this ever becomes an actual thing. But I always thought there should be a restaurant where you can order a drink and then you can order flavored ice with it.

So you can have like, I'll have a Coke with cherry ice or I'll have a Coke with lemon ice or you can mix and match the ice. And so as it melts, it adds like flavor and it also cools down your ice. We should call this something. We could call it flavor ice. No, that's used. That's what they call it.

Those things you squeeze are flavor ice. For the flavor ice. I wish we had that. It turned out like fun. Something like something like, well first advocate, they're cubes, they're ice cubes. Taste cube. That's interesting. It needs to be more, I think it needs to be more active, like a taste bomber.

Taste bomb. Like a tube, tube bomb. Drop taste. Drop taste is good. Taste drop. No, no, no, splash. Something to splash. Splash.

Oh, oh, wait, actually just call it splash. Something like splash. No, it doesn't need a website because it's served at a restaurant. Everything but the website. Well of course there'll be a website for the course. Is this distributed by Cisco? For the, I would imagine Cisco is going to be the most

likely to take my idea and run them. Let's call them right now. I think it's something like ice. It's like stingers, they're like stingers or something. How amazing would it be to eat? Isers, isers. Isers is good. Is that good?

I don't know. I like splash but look, hey. Just splash? Isers, isers. Isers is good. Is that good? I don't know. I like splash, but look, hey. Just splash. Here's what I want to talk about. Oh, splash with no A. Oh, I just read. SPL, S-H. Yeah, so vaguely a tax-killatory.

Spracious. I guess that's not working. Squish. What would it be? Here's what I want to talk about. Flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor

that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's flavor that's Flavise. What I want to slaves. Do you ever have fantasies like I want to go, yeah, to be true. I do. God do that right now. Here, let's change the tenor in this podcast. Let's do it. Now that we did that, I'm gonna share my true fantasy, which is how amazing would it be to go to Cisco and present the idea of splash.

Let's do it. All right. The two of us do it. This will be like, ha ha ha ha. Let's do it. All right. The two of us do it. This feels like, come up with something. Just get the meeting. It's like Uber for ice cubes. Yeah, something like that. I just want to know what that person is.

Like that man or woman, it's Cisco. I don't think, I don't think anybody pitches them. I think they have people in house that come up with new stuff. Oh, I bet there's a problem. There's like chicken straws. Chicken straws. I think about it.

You get some barbecue sauce through the straw and eat the straw. You know, you know, chicken straws? Chicken straws? Oh, like about it. You get some barbecue sauce through this straw and you eat the straw. You know, you know, chicken straws is an amazing idea. And I would like some, I would like also 10% of that. Here's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking that you and I,

but you know, Bloomberg, who knows what's gonna happen there? Bloomberg, Bloomberg. I'm starting a new company. I'm a writer. Who the hell, but what we do is we go start yeah Cisco labs Like in San Francisco

We do sit we do Cisco labs. It's like oh, you know every you know the hot thing is like Sam's on the new San Francisco office They're doing yeah, like all of our products. I'm just like open chicken. Yeah, like there's nothing else It's like chicken with no with no eye. Yeah, yeah, can you mustard like this? I like this. It's never explained it. Yeah. Oh, I think this is good. I think it's good. I think we get this go lab I think we get like we could get and we got like a really cool Twitter account open the door Yeah, with probably like 12 to 14 million a year and funding get that up to 30 by the second year I don't know why I'm wasting time. We have about three employees. Cisco Labs is just, and then we sell to Facebook.

Oh, it's so great. So great. It's so great. No, we can't because we're owned by Cisco. Along my Cisco, right. Again, I just want to put this out there. Chicken straws, okay? Great idea.

Just straw made of chicken. So we got two things here. We got splashes and we got chicken straws. Splashes. Did I say splatter? Who said splasher? Listen, I work in branding in marketing. It's great. Yeah, splasher. Splasher's chicken struts. Did I say splatter? Who said splasher? Listen, I work in branding and marketing.

Yeah, splasher. Splasher's chicken straws. These are the first two products of Cisco Labs. What else? What else? You know, everything. Anything. Anything you dip in.

Okay, I'm gonna say something else. Of course, of course. The splasher's idea was actually part of a larger idea than I was scared to talk about because I think it's. Oh, no, good. Safe space. Okay, well, again, I'm gonna say this one, you cannot use this idea without involving me and I will sue the hell out of you.

I will see you into the dark age, which means I will also use a time machine. Okay. A restaurant called Dippers. Everything has a selection. There are selections of dipping sauces for everything. Literally Cisco right now, the whole company just stopped.

Yeah, they're like, how do we not think of how? So it's like flavoredized in dipping sauces of all types. Like like 40 different types of dipping sauces. Well, they get like 20 kinds of bread and chips. Yep, everything. Everything gets to the kinds of chips. What kind of dipping sauce you want for your burger?

Like there's like a there's like a Pepper corn here's what I need in order to move forward with you Josh Okay, I need you to describe to me what a combo looks like what I order Well, that's that's you that tells me do you want to double up your combo? Of course I do okay Yeah, sorry. How much is that? 1499 always oh well, it's a little steep, but you know what? Difference is a really it's a high end. I'll ask for casual dining casual, but not there's there's waiters. What is that they call that casual dining?

It's not five rockers. Oh, it's not it's not Apple. It's no, it's it's a it's Apple B's pricing, but with an atmosphere that's much more cool and excited. Merwin Wendy's got a buffet. How bad that was. I did work out. I did work out. But, but so anyhow, no, I mean the combo, the double, the double up combo.

What did they say? Double up. So you get, you get, it's double dip. It's double dip is the name of the cup. Double dip. Choice of two half entrees and you get four dipping sauces. Oh my God. All right.

1499. What are my, okay. So I get my choice. Yeah. You can get a lot of time. And then obviously the sides. Obviously the sides. What would you, okay, four sides.

I need, what are the sides? Gwok. Well, there would be some traditional sides, things like, like double baked mac and cheese. Oh, that's a side. That's a four cheese, four cheese, double baked mac and cheese. That's with four cheese, four cheese, double baked mac and cheese. That's a dip. What am I dipping into? You dip that in something like a Chipotle spice, Chipotle curry sauce that's just really sets off from a cheese.

Is it easy to work or am I just like, what am I eating? You eat with the fork. easy with a fork or am I just like, what am I eating with a fork? Okay. Okay. Okay. That's a fork item. Anyhow, so you've got sides like that, but then you also would have, you know, things like slam balls.

So sure, sure, absolutely. You know, which is like a baked, it's like a, honestly, it's like, it's like spaghetti. It's like, it's like spaghetti. We're like 30 minutes away from having a deck. Like, it's really good. We know, 30 minutes away from having a deck. Like, it's really good. We've got to hit LinkedIn and see who we know it's this go. But like baked spaghetti into like a ball.

Yeah, that you can just lay a ball. Yeah. You can just sleep, you can't just lay a ball. Obviously, yeah. No, no, no. It's a meatball, rather spaghetti. Yeah, yes, yes, yes. But then bacon or bacon, I'm sorry, fried, fried.

Fried, it's like the meatball stuff, it's a meat. Yes, yes, yes. But then they get her bait. I'm sorry, fried fried. Fried people. It's like the meatballs stuff. It's a meatball stuff. It's a spaghetti with that with like a like an incredible on top. Yeah. Yeah. That's good.

What a ball. What's happening? Oh, uh, Magnus, Magnus just reprimanded us because he thinks that we need to get back to the code issue. And I think, and I'm the, I'm the one who expert, I'm certainly not an expert on my audience. Here's what I wanna do. I wanna knock out code.

I think the people are interested in what we're talking about. I wanna knock out code in like three minutes and then get back to how we're gonna create this restaurant. Okay, dippers. All right. Okay, here we go. I mean, I just said code first and slam balls. All right, so I wrote this big article

and then, Josh's awesome team. Yeah. Went ahead and made an insane website. Which Josh, you. Thank you. Yeah, that's nice. The other Josh's awesome team also made an insane magazine. It's a little perplexing when you're at Bloomberg Business Week

where Joshua Topolsky and Joshua Turingel are two of the management. And no one's able to, everyone talks about them, there's no inflection. Like it's like Josh says. Yes, this is true. And we're also both Josh T.C. came and be like, who's one?

Josh T, yeah that guy. Anyway, what's the other one? Go buy this magazine. No, get the magazine. I'm just in my ass on it. The web team busted their ass in the editor. Like 50 people worked really hard. The web is not accessible through the magazine, but the web is open and ready for you to

peruse. You should really have the magazine also because it's a really special issue. I will say, I've never worked on anything this hard in my life. This is the hardest I've ever worked, and the people around me worked incredibly hard to make it possible. I thought we were going to break people during this, honestly. There were moments recently, I was in the West Coast for most of this week.

And so the final run up to all of this, I was just completely checked out for like, they were, and it was very late at night and I'm like emailing people. And they're there working. No, they were there. I was there with them. Yeah.

Actually, I did a lot of your soldiers. You're great soldiers. You know, everyone fight against bad content. I think everyone just had a sense that we could make something that would as much as like someone on Y Combinator will be like, you're understanding of small talkage and correct. Yeah, that was pretty poor.

Did you read the, have you read the Hacken news comment? Of course I have. I've read all of them. Have you really? I've read a lot of them. Yeah, I mean, it's like, I like to know, the funny thing about hacker news comments and meta filter comments and so on

is that when they're about you, they're really frustrating day one. And then by day 30, they are actually the highest possible comedy. You're just like, oh my God. But on day one, you're just like, you're just heartbroken. It must be so weird. I must, you know, I think about this for the magazine folks.

Many of them are like not, they're not like looking at, they're not looking at the hacker news comments. Let's put it that way. Right. And that's wonderful. Yeah. I realize like I've been under attack for like nearly a decade.

Oh, people on the internet. Just telling you, you're not making that. Like everything that you do is under attack. I mean, the most of what you see is not people going like, this is really great. A lot of people are saying that about your piece. Which is wonderful. It's incredible. It's not just the communities that you belong to. When you are the person who makes the content that they discuss, it's over. And I notice that, so I have a really, like, I really love and love,

mostly a lurker, but I've been a member of MetaFilter forever. But there was a moment a couple years ago when my kids were conceived, I wrote this book, and I wrote this book, and I wrote this book, and I wrote this book, and I wrote thisker, but I've been a member of MetaFilter forever. But there was a moment a couple years ago when my kids were conceived, I wrote this essay about dealing with IVF and dealing with my, we didn't did full on test tube babies. And I wrote about it.

And just 90 people had something to say about that. And about my wife's uterus and about sort of my life. And the choices we were making, and it was a lot of like, this is a problem, this is a problem, and I kind of checked out at that moment, I'm just like, all right, you know, I made some choices in my life, and I wrote about them as honestly as I could,

and you people are like, some of you are really kind, some of you have genuine honest criticism and would like me to think about things differently or respect that. I totally respect and I'm okay with, like I've been called on like stupid, homophobic easy jokes or like weird race stuff in the course of my internet career.

And like, you're a bad guy. You're a bad person. I'm actually, I think, fine, call me on it. It's great. I mean, it's like, I don't, one thing I think about, when I think about Paul Ford, I think, fine, call me on it. It's great. I mean, it's like, I don't... One thing I think about, when I think about Paul Ford, I think about a guy who's racist and homophobic in the extreme. No, but you know what?

I have tremendous respect. People are trying to create and craft and identify themselves. Like, they're trying to create their own identities and they're trying to be who they want to be. And like, if I interfere with that and I cause the sense of emotional distress about that, I actually do want to know about that. That doesn't mean I'm gonna change my behavior that minute. But I want to know that effect.

I think that's important. I don't want to like make some weird joke and have somebody feel that I would never be their friend. I think that's shitty. Like I want to watch that. I don't think you, are you doing that? I don't think you are. You can always do better, dude.

That's true, anyway. Let's not go down to that path on the internet, but that's something I think about a lot. Yeah. Can we just tell people go buy this code? Yeah, where do I go? You gotta get back to Slayb. Plus the right.

All right. Okay. Okay, dippers. By the way, this is the out there. I've been talking about it for years. I was in the middle of the out there. Let me just go right down. So the cut, it's dippers is the name of the restaurant. I'm thinking to Z on the end, but is the out there. I've been talking about it for years. I didn't know it was out there. Let's go right down. So the cut. It's differs is the name of the restaurant.

I'm thinking to Z on the end, but I'm not really sure. Oh, I think that's real good. Differ is because I'm just gonna try to do DIPP R as like that's interesting. But that's like a 2006 website. It feels like drip to me. Drip it. This feels like it's cutting through all the noise with some nice hot food for you. DIPP ERP-P-E-R-Z. Yeah.

I think the Z needs to be like really big. It's big as the D. And it's got like some flames on top of it. I know. Or something dripping off of it like a sauce. It's so hot. This thing, this thing. So the premise of the restaurant, just to be clear here, is that dipping there are some

many, many dipping sauce options. Right. They're like wild combos. How does this stuff get to the table? I was thinking you could have something when you haven't, like if you've got a group that you got to leave out to dinner with a few friends. Okay, so five friends.

There would be a kind of a tiered, I'd let's just like a, like a, kind of like an, an Eiffel Tower of dipping sauces, if you will. So like it's like a tiered, like a Christmas tree, like a Christmas tree of dipping sauces. Oh, you know what be cool is actually, is you get some So like it's like like like a Christmas tree, like a Christmas tree of dipping sauces. Oh, you know what be cool is actually is you get some technology where you could like

whip around a dipping sauce to somebody else. Oh, we need to go. Like you could be like you got to try the peppercorn pickle and then you flip it around to the other. We're building. We're building this platform. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this could rise up. Oh, you know, be cool if it was built into a circular table and you press on it and it comes up It kind of is like a collapsing structure. Yeah, and then you can whip around you can whip the dip The Dipper Single best let's do the commercial thing. I've ever well something like you and your friends are hungry

Are you ready for something? What is the southern is the southern? I don't know. I don't know. I saw that. You're something like a little bit more sophisticated. What are you doing? Okay, so it's not hungry. It's actually like a classic a fun day now. I'm gonna tie into the Batman franchise. I'm gonna dip my slim ball. You will regret what you've done. Whip the dip whip the dip This is this is so I just want to know I mean it's just I think this must be terrible to listen to I don't know what people are thinking I love to know I'm having a great time and I think Paul's having a great time

I think this is what I want to listen to because this went from like the two white guys in a room Probably a podcast into the let's actually make a restaurant called I get first I hope that I hope that I get a call or you get a call from Cisco Like really like really like this idea. We're strong. It's PF Chang I The moody I know but the cheese game factory like they me. She's getting back to me. She's getting back to me.

Like, you're just apples. I want to talk to whoever writes their other profits out of the revenue generator. You don't hear about you know apple on something. Apple owns the cheesecake factory. Oh, yeah. Tim Cook would never have met like a dog walking like company. Look at a frant like a dog walking franchise. They're just like, you know, it's, it's revenue.

You know what? And it's good. You know, that, that money's never gonna stop coming in. Dogs are always gonna need to be locked. People are always gonna need to have a giant giant entree. So Apple P F Chang. Yeah, I just want to know. We'll ever. It's a chain. I was P F Chang or P F Chang. This is like or soft with my Panda Express. It's obviously like we can't. We can is Microsoft by Panda Express. Is it? Obviously.

Because we can't. The very different Panda Express is exactly as the name implies kind of a fast food to your nation. I know, but that's what Chang is, which I believe there is an ass on the end, is a sophisticated dining experience. I know that's so that.

So whoever owns it, please contact me because I have a great idea for Paul and I have a great idea. Well, he's helping me riff. You know what it is? It's the Apple it's the apples legal seafood. And Microsoft is red lobster. Red lobster is great.

People love it. It's great, right? And a shrimp. And a lot of Microsoft, I actually am troubled by the endless shrimp concept. Can we talk about this for a second? Well, because shrimp is not endless obviously. I, we know that it're a bit in the ocean.

It's physically impossible that there's an endless amount of shrimp. That is totally impossible. But doesn't it seem excessive to even offer? Well, if you can, if you can, I'll offer that much shrimp. Of all the things I would want to have, like, an endless amount of, I think I've talked about this before,

but shrimp is really low on the, it's like, oh, you know, it'd be great, endless cake. Let's take this in a direct. Endless ice cream. Let's consider a device that could produce shrimp from just about all raw material. Something like the fake crab meat that they can sushi. So what I'm thinking is like, this actually could be the way the world ends.

It's like a Cooper for shrimp. It consumes all of the earth in order to make endless shrimp. So what if you can, so there's like a thing that you can put anything into it. I was thinking like the singularity man. It creates shrimp on the other end. Like, whatever happens, there's a huge... All I'm talking about, there's a huge apparatus in the middle of it.

You put any material into one side. Yeah. On the other side. This is the product that's formed. This is like cocktail shrimp comes out. This is the singularity. Red lobster ends the universe. Like, that's pretty much how it happens.

What? What are you talking? What are you saying, Magnus? Sorry, Magnus, I can't understand the first part because of your thick accent. Unfortunately, not the end of this. Oh, it's not an endless podcast. He's saying, I see. Magnus is saying that we're going, we're going long.

We gotta just get this guy at the different. We're going long. Yeah, we took you out to Dipper's and we whipped some dip over to you. I think you're gonna pick the dip. Yeah, you would change your attitude because you'd be amongst friends. It's true.

Having a great time. It's taking back. Magnus, let me tell you something. You need to go out tonight and you need to whip the dip. Gotta do it, whip the dip. Yeah. You need to use a stressful, long day

at your cool, awesome job. Sexy young people. Yeah. Time to go whip the dip. Double you need to stress whole long day at your cool, awesome job. Sexy young people. Yeah. Time to go whip the dip. Double dip at dip. Double dip. Hey, with a combo that's only 1499 with your choice of four. It's like, it's really like a quadruple dip. Oh, man, and pick your car. That's part of the ad. Quadruple dip. Why don't they go a quadruple dip? And then goes like, I think we're in question. You know, we have the Jeff. Yeah.

This is, this is, this was thought about the code article from the road partner. Mostly we talked about how much work went into the code article. Listen, I just, I really actually have to say this is a thing where, a lot of things I write and I do where I'm like, yeah, it's cool. If you happen to come across it, I'd appreciate hearing any feedback. I really, if you have ever had any doubts about what the hell software is and why programmers behave the way they do, I did my damnedest to tell you what's up. I'll say something. I think that there has never before, I'm not trying to inflate your ego here.

I don't think anything like this has ever been written in the way that it is written. In the sense that people maybe have written books and essays about how code works. Because that's a thing that happens. This is a all-encompassing Primer that is actually written for human beings and is funny and smart and sophisticated and and not At all impenetrable like it like I think that is the key it is it feels like It's this is like the best possible kind of explainer journalism that has ever that's this is like the best possible kind of explainer journalism that has ever. That's the ultimate.

The ultimate explainer. It's like the ultimate explainer journalism in the sense that it's like you know exactly what you're talking about. And yet it's communicated in a way to a broad audience that you're like, this is so engaging and so funny and so charming and interesting. I want to keep going. And you actually, you do learn something. I learned something reading this thing.

That's really kind of thank you. And my brain has almost no room left for information, thanks to all of the great ideas I have in it, like, dippers. You know, actually, as you see that, what it makes me think is I want to go to dippers right now. I mean, it'd be cool if it existed, right? And remember, the ice, what are they called? Splashers.

Oh, splashers. Splashers. Dipper's Splashers is a wonderful thing. We got to Dipper's, we get some splashers. That's like a whole page in the menu. Splashers, splashers selection. You start with your alcoholic splashers. Well, you can do that.

Oh, that's another thing. I didn't even time it. You do like a vodka and lemon ice. Yeah. It's a slam dunk. You go to Dipper's, you get some splashers, and then you actually do the dip. And you rip like a vodka and lemon ice. Yeah, it's a slam dunk. You go to differs, you get some splashes, and then you actually do the dip. And you rip the dip.

Rip the dip. Yeah, we have the dip. Kick a splasher. Anyway, thank you for this kind of words. I mean, I look, I just, I work hard on it, and I'm really, it's good to be here. It's good to, good to talk about it. Funny side note, the magazine, which we usually have copies

of the magazine that are readily available at Bloomberg when the new business we comes out people are like They're all gone. Oh really in the building people are actually bargaining to get copies from other people I had to I had to like bargain with somebody. I don't have a copy yet. Oh well So I was gonna bring one which which I left which is now gonna be stolen off of my desk no question I asked them to grab me a couple of tickets. I would know that they could get you a couple. But like I actually think this is a very unusual,

I mean in my time there, I've never seen people like scrambling around trying to get, because they're always just hanging out everywhere. We created an event, right? Like you can still do that. It takes four. But it's also not like a fake event. It's a real, I mean it's, it's, when Josh said, let's just

do this piece as the whole thing, I was like, Oh, yeah, that is a cool idea. I know. It's crazy. It's a weird idea. It may not work. Yeah. But it's cool. And I mean, that's the thing that I think that's what it's so important to convey that whether it was going to work or not, like we just everybody was like, this is really crazy. And then at some level, the job of the management and of the people working on it is to slowly lower the risk, edit by edit, that it will be perplexing or confusing so that it can work. Just give it the possibility of being understood. And it went into the world.

And as far as I can tell, people are internalizing it, understanding it, they're criticizing it, they're loving it, they're hating it. Like all that stuff is really powerful. And so anyway, I just like, like that was a big novel, crazy thing. Your team totally got invested in it. And-

How could you not? Yeah, they just made something really weird and new that no one else has seen before. So that's just like, go look at it, go buy it. I think the, I think the space of like, we're great. I know that we gotta wind this up, but I like this. There's a thing that's really interesting that's happened,

which is that, I won't name names, we're like people from big legacy external media organizations, famous ones, are sniping at it. And I'm hearing that back channel because I have all the friends who work there. Sure. Because I've been around forever and some of the same. Oh, just sort of like, I wonder what he got paid. And then they're like, oh, well, you know, blah, blah, blah, covered that better in 2005. And just like, all that stuff is happening. And like, what I love. So the media is is annoyed and it was supposed to get it was supposed to actually be a

Interview with me in a paper of record and about this and then the bosses shut it down Oh, I know about that. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about and yes I was like oh that's a bummer and lame. Yeah, the bosses were like now they're a competitor That's correct, which has actually happened. It's kind of awesome, that's a bummer and lame. Yeah, the bosses were like, now they're a competitor. That's correct. Which has actually happened. It's kind of awesome. It's a newspaper. We want to work in name names.

Not gonna name names, but it's a big one. It's a big one. It's a big, big paper, local paper. Yeah. And the bosses were like, we're not gonna let that, we're not gonna promote a competitor. Two competitors. That was awesome, right?

Until the one organization buys the other, but we'll just see what's on the line with it. You know, everybody. They're New York Post. Exactly. Anyhow, or the New York press. No, that's true. But it is true.

It is, I mean, I'm listening. I truly am very hard on anything. I'm like, oh, this could be better. But you do see people sniping at it. And then it does kind of like warm your heart a little bit. But the nerds, like old school software guys are on Twitter going, this actually tells the story. No, no, good, good.

There are good people saying really good things, but I actually sent an email to our team, and I was like, look, look at Twitter to see the reaction on this thing, because it's like really, there are some really, really smart people saying really nice things about it. This is the least humble I've been in about 20 years. It's fun, you've earned it. I'm gonna call it, but I can't know with that. You're allowed to, you just wrote a 40,000 word article. I know I gotta go finish my book.

It's like a book. It's basically a book. I'm gonna go finish it. I'll get really quickly because we have to go. But you mentioned that you're doing and you have a new thing. Oh yeah, I should talk about that. Tell me about this just a little bit.

This is a plug part of the podcast. So just, I'm getting used to telling this, saying this in public, with a partner, my partner Rich Ziyadeh, who has been developing software platforms for well over a decade, big ones, and created an organization called Readability. I am the founding partner. He and I are the founding partners

of a company called Post-Light, P-O-S-T-L-I-G-H-T. Just the way the words are spelled. We're still getting the URL. Post-Light.com, who has it? We do. It's just taking a little while to transfer from the purchase. Sure. How much is spent on that?

Can you include an interview on numbers? Not a shocking amount. Six digits? No, no, no on numbers? Not a shocking amount. Six digits? No, no, no, no. Like low, low five. And that's not insignificant. So that's significant, but it's a good name. Is this something that you've got like VC cash coming in on

or what is the deal? No, we've got, we have clients. No, okay, both people that you work for, who pay you money. Yeah, so we're like a business. We're gonna build. That's unusual. Yeah, it's one of the things I focus on.

Can that work? Is that sustainable? It's actually amazing. You can work with people directly to really good work for them and they will continue to pay you money on a regular basis. So do you take Bitcoin? Not yet, but we're working on that.

Really? Yeah, no. What's your kind of shopping card do you offer? We do not yet offer. It would be very like, you'd come to us because you want a very special kind of shopping card. We're not going to do your major. You'll make a shopping card.

Yeah, we're not going to do your major. If I need a shopping card, you can build one. Yeah, we're not going to do your midgeto installation. We're here to like get you. Okay. We're going to build something big and weird. Okay. So shopping card.

Like a large real time streaming digital media platform that can serve you. Okay. We're going to build something big and weird. Okay. Um, so shopping cart like a large real-time streaming digital media platform that can serve a hundred thousand people simultaneously. Are you doing that? That sounds pretty good. That's the thing that actually is done that is part of this company. Do I know any, will I see it soon? Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to showing it to part of a major media brand. It really is. I can't wait to show it to you. Anyway, so that's what I'm doing. Actually, I, um, I love writing and I will continue to write, but I actually in the last and I actually my number one thing to do right now, it's finish a book that I'm under contract to finish.

So what is code? It's a little like what is code. It's called the Secret Lies of Web pages. However, what I really, I really miss doing client work. It's urgent for me to like get back in. I need to build you do too. You have to get back in. I need to build. You do too. You need to get stuff done. I got to build. I got to work for clients. You can't just write little scribbly things. No, I don't want to.

Exactly. Unless it's related to Dippers, the hot new restaurant, that everybody's talking about. We're going to do a great marketing campaign for this thing. Can you guys build the platform for Dippers? Yeah, we can. That's interesting. You can.

Well, what do you need it to do? What don't I need it to do? Oh. I can't make don't I needed to do So how so first of all it's just ordering and getting the dippers all right I got to really bad I just get your right because we're different dippers and for some reason he isn't like that we got a wrap up Thank you for joining me great to be here. Thank you for doing what is code. It's amazing and please I think this goes that same, but please come back. I love our conversation. So much so do I well That is the show for this week my thanks again to Paul Ford who is a wonderful wonderful man and

Of course we'll be back next week And I wish you and your family the very best Although I had a phone conversation with someone last night and The things they described me about what is going to happen to your family sound very dire indeed so I hope that always you