Tomorrow - Episode 2: Faxing From the Beach with Paul Ford

Episode Date: April 17, 2015

This week writer, programmer, and Person of the Internet Paul Ford joins Josh in the studio. The discussion covers an enormous amount of ground, including topics that should most likely never be raised in mixed company. Keiwon Consolidated Industries, failed novels, the 2016 election, and George Lucas all make an appearance. Don't dare miss a moment of this heartbreaking work of staggering genius. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to Tomorrow. I am your host, Joshua Tupolki. Today we've got an amazing show where we talk about Transformers, Faxing from the Beach and Shines. The first award from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the easiest way to create a beautiful website, blog, or online store for you and your ideas. Squarespace features an elegant interface, beautiful templates, an incredible 24-7 customer

support. Try Squarespace at squarespace.com and enter offer code Joshua, which is a great, I gotta say, the best offer code of all time, at checkout to get 10% off. Squarespace, build a beautiful. This podcast is also sponsored by Need. Need is refined retailer and lifestyle publication for men. Each month, Need sources incurate a selection of exclusive products from brands around the world.

They're presented in a monthly editorial, a lot like what you'd expect to find in a typical men's magazine, allowing you to find the best products without any need for copious shopping or research, which can be time-consuming. Neige's launch volume 2.5 featuring items from the likes of Newtie, Belon Oak, Marshall Artist, Serial, Nizolo, and more. The new collection is available at NeedEdition.com. They've also got their Spring Forward campaign running for a few more days. Small microcollections to help you transition into Spring at neededition.com slash essentials.

Discounts are up to 50% off. Tomorrow listeners who use the promo code, promo code, and yes, that is the code, promo code, during checkout will receive 20% off their order. Need. Check it out. My guest today on the show is Paul Ford.

And if you don't know the name Paul Ford, shame on you first off. But secondly, Paul is, how can I describe Paul? He is a citizen of the internet. I would describe Paul as a person I know Paul, basically as a person from the internet, but he's become a real person in my life in no small part, thanks to my wife, Laura June, who is a writer, also a person of the internet, and several other people I know who small part, thanks to my wife, Laura June, who is a writer, also a person of the internet. And several other people I know who know Paul.

And now Paul and I know each other. He is a writer, he is an editor, he is a programmer. I think decidedly not a programmer. And he's here with me. Thank you so much for having me here. I think you're welcome. What is that voice? I'm just leaning on the microphone.

Also, I have a little cold. That's what you're not doing, just a sexy voice. No, no, no, no, this is the real deal. Paul's a, Paul, now look, a lot of people may know you. I think there's certain people who are listening to this who know you are. I think an enormous number of people do not know me. I think we can, I think it goes without saying that in the world, generally speaking, more people don't

know you than know you. Do you ever think about that, like what it's like to be like Brad Pitt? Like actually every country in the world, they're looking at him and they're going like, oh man, that guy. I know, I know you. Vin Diesel, right? Vin Diesel's my name. I think that was fast and fast in the past. I know, I know you. Vin Diesel, right? Vin Diesel's my international bestie.

I think those fast and furious movies. Like anything where stuff just really explodes. Well, they are very international films, and they actually feature a very international cast, a kind of diverse, multi-cultural. But that was kind of fascinating about Pacific Rim, right? Like it was so clearly, I've never seen a Pacific Rim.

Oh, but like as a movie. No, no, as a movie, it's like things are always happening in other countries. Like it's very, like the Pacific is going from place to place. Yeah, and it's very, like it's clearly designed for like, okay, we're gonna need the global market to function in this way.

Well, no, I think about that all the time when I watch movies now. Yeah. I think this movie was made for China. Yeah. Like this isn't for me. I mean, I can watch it and enjoy it like Transformers. I think the last Transformers, which I didn't see, but I saw

the trailer. I saw one of them. Because it was just their fascinating. Was that come on? It was one there was like a stealth fighter with a beard. You just described every Transformers movie. So what happened is I had a friend and he was like, all right, this is, this is gonna be terrible. We gotta go see it. And like, he wrote me into that movie. I like any, I like any friend interaction that starts like that. Right. And it was so loud and painful.

He leaned over to me halfway through. And he was like, all right, let's just get the hell out of here. It had to have been the second one. Yeah, it was really bad. The second one had a great review. If I'm, if I'm not mistaken, had a review, I09 did a review of it. That was sort of like, this isn't a movie. This is an experience. This is something. This is something that happens to your body. It was so punishing.

Like the sound was so punishing. You know, when those robots start to transform, it's just like for like 45 minutes. And then the robots are racist. And you're just like, what is happening? And you just imagine, actually, can I just let me clarify there? The robots aren't racist the way they're written is racist. Yeah, I'm sorry, the representation of the robots that transform from cars to anthropomorphic robots.

They're like, they're like, yeah, they're like, they're funky or whatever. Yeah, but it was bad. It was a little worse and funky. It was a little like, I mean, it was racist It was a little like well. It was I mean it was racist So whatever conversation for us to be having on a podcast Where it was to white guys. Yeah, that's good to internet white guys to him about race in in America in film again in the In the context of transformers. Let's just

I think we should keep going on that. Let's follow that down. Let's see what's going on Intersectionality. Where are you? But I don't know what that word means, but it was racist in the way the new Star Wars movies, the first one, the Phantom Man, is that the first one? Yeah, yeah. The way that was racist, which is you get the impression that the people who are responsible for it aren't aware that the thing they're doing

is actually racist. Like I don't think George Lucas, I don't think he's racist. I know for a fact, I would say he's not racist. And I know and saw red tails, so we're never gonna know. I don't know what that is. That was the movie he made about, I think about the Tuskegee Airman.

Is it racist? Probably not, but no one saw it. Okay, so anyhow Paul, you're a writer, you're an editor. You're a programmer? Yeah, I'm all three of those things. And you have you're married. I married. And you have twins. I have two children. Yeah, okay. That covers that. I didn't know this when I was researching you, which I did. Extensive. Yeah, before you could tell. You read a book. I did. Well, you know what? You're when we're talking about the people who know me and the fact that 99.9, like, like, seven

sigma's of humanity does not know who I am. The eighth sigma is the people who might know that I wrote that book. And it did not sell very well. They're tuned in right now. Yeah. What's not that well? I actually don't know that. Oh, man.

I don't even remember. But like, they don't tell you. They don't know anyone. No, but you wouldn't describe it as a success. Oh, no, no. This is one of those things where like you call the don't know anyone. No, but you wouldn't describe it as a success. Oh, no, no, this is one of those things where like you call the publishing company, you're like, so what's up?

And they're like, I don't know, that's not here anymore. And you're like, no, this is Penguin Plume, it's the phone number. And they're like, no, nobody's in that. Oh, it's not a distress. It's like a boiler room situation. Yeah. No, Penguin Plume, definitely a boiler room.

Those guys. So, so how did that happen? I mean, what, what, give me the sequence of events, when did you, why did you publish it? So, 10 years ago, I was, do not want to talk about this. I don't care anymore,

but I mean, but at one point, you didn't want to talk about it. Uh, it's very painful to publish a book and just watch it just, sh, boom. Well, anything you do, can I just say this,

that doing anything that where you put your creativity or creative energy into it, or you put something of yourself into it that doesn't succeed. I mean, it doesn't matter what it is, it's painful when it doesn't succeed. Yeah, and this was like, this was particularly painful. I mean, it's like in retrospect,

now I've got a bunch of context I can see what was going on, but it was like, yeah, they gave me, I was writing, it was actually, it started as a hoax online on the morning news, and it was, I was writing as a kid in Williamsburg. And this is like, again, 2003. And, editors, right? And nobody could tell if it was real or not.

And it was about this guy who was gonna start a band, and he was just very full of himself. How are you writing it as what kind in what kind of capacity that was like? Just like a guy who just kind of the city just like, you know, he would just be like, hey, I went to this club and it was cool. And just like he just was a complete,

you were writing in the character? In the character, yes. Can we talk about the book? Can we start? Can we say the name of the book? Gary, eventually, come Rockstar, what's the name of the book? And so you began writing this for a website called the Morning News, which does it still exist? Absolutely. Absolutely. It's still publishing away. And I remember the morning news vividly from the early 2000s.

I felt like it was a thing that some people, that a lot of people read. Sure. It's different. I don't know if it is now, but I still, I bet you still have time. I mean mean I actually don't know the stats, but no it's still actively published there's lots of lots of readers I'm so like I should read it the morning news like I better check this out. It's a great site So you were writing in character as it you were doing a column. Yeah, yeah, that was it and A lot of people thought it was real and so people asked me if I wanted to write a book and I was like I guess I do And then I wrote the book and the process of writing the book was like, okay, here's my book. And they're like, cool, got your book. And then they're like, I'm going to give you a couple bucks. And I was like, wow, money. And they're like, yep. And then they published it. And then it went

Blair. And then, and I was like, well, I guess I failed for life. And they were like, yeah, whatever, dude, that's that that is the funny, that's actually really funny, because I had a career before I was a journalist or whatever it is I'm pretending to be right now, making music. Yeah. And it is one of those things. Well, in my life, I've always been,

maybe you weren't that interested in the book. Maybe you just did it because you could do it. Oh, no, I wanted this thing to work. I always done these things where where you know, I put I put just an enormous amount of time and energy and passion into it And then you know, I've had Transitional moments like when I was done with music where it wasn't really going in the direction I wanted it to go in and I wasn't that happy with the things I was making and I started writing, really. But you get to these moments where you think, but you think, oh, my life's, I'm done.

I mean, you don't feel this way, but you think, oh, I failed, I'm a failure. Well, I think that all the time about everything, right? Like on a daily basis. Yeah, really? Who doesn't think that? Yeah, I kind of do, it's a little problem. I think that, but I think the practice of adulthood

is self-delusion, and so that you learn to stop thinking I think that, yeah, I feel the do, it's a little problem. I think that, but I think the practice of adulthood is self-delusion and so that, you know, you learn to stop thinking you fail every day. No, I still think that I just cover it up. Okay, like yeah, it's good. Do you know you're covering? Oh, yeah. Because I think that what's important

about being an adult is that you don't know you're covering. Oh, no, I know. My therapist is too expensive for me not to. Oh, you have a therapist. Of course I do. Should I have one? Yeah, oh, yeah. That too expensive for me not. Oh, you have a therapist. Of course I do. Should I have one? Cause I don't have. Oh, yeah.

That's good. Yeah, no, I feel like, see, I feel like that's maybe my problem. Well, I'm not in therapy. I mean, that could be one of your problems. We don't know. Yeah, we know. I just don't know. It's no way to tell because I haven't gotten the help that I do.

I mean, who knows? It just, so, you know, for me, I don't know, yeah, it's good. It's good that someone did a brief with, get a plan, structure stuff. I'm definitely less crazy. One time a week. Yeah, one time a week. I mean, I would imagine if someone

used to listen to this right now, I don't know what we're talking about at this point, but I, well, we can get back to technology. No, I don't want it. I'm actually enjoying this because I, you know, I so rarely have conversations with people. I mean, they're want it. I'm actually enjoying this because I you know, I so rarely have conversations with people I mean, they're the worst. I work a lot. I like no, I like conversations But most conversations are filled with things that you don't want to talk about. Have you hit the point?

I feel like at this point like my my hobby is going to meetings like I feel like like I'm like I get a bunch of work done And then I'm like, oh man, what am I gonna do? I'm like, oh that meeting will be fun I have said and I'm not complaining because I'm very, I have a, no, we live lives as stupid privilege. I have a great career and I'm very happy and it's wonderful. And I'm glad that I, somebody thinks I'm important enough to set a meeting with me, right?

It's a wonderful. But I am definitely in a day-to-day situation where I, a person has to come and get me from the meeting I'm in to make sure I go to the next meeting. And that happens all the way through the day until I'm done. And then when I, like, there are times when I, and maybe you do this, maybe you don't, sometimes I'll get a half an hour break in between meetings, and I get really excited because I can check my email. What do you, oh, okay, that's your thing.

Like, it's just like, I mean, it's just like my phone. No, no, I mean I just like I think I can get some things done. Maybe I can contact some people. So since I work for myself a lot that from me becomes train time like I'm just like oh nobody can I have an excuse when I'm on the train to like not be doing anything. Right. So that's the you're on you're on your name by the subway subway, yeah. What kind of phone do you use? Well, I'll tell you, it's an Android photo. Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, and this isn't herty, but I was just thinking, well,

you couldn't get anything done on an iPhone because it's not, it doesn't really load all of your messages. And maybe you're, maybe you're going through a backlog, but Android does seem to me to have, it's better at loading things before you get to them. Oh yeah, you know, it's actually quite good. You'll be on your ground, you'll be like, oh, okay, I get enough. But then you can't really, no, and then I'll queue up some replies.

Like I did that on the way over here. Oh, really? Oh yeah, I just sat there and just like, and then it's funny because I start elevated on the train, then I go underground, then I get the bridge, because I'm on the queue train, and then I go back underground. So it's like, I literally am like, okay, a couple quicker replies. I get the bridge, because I'm on the Q-train. And then I go back underground. So it's like, I literally, I'm like, okay, couple quick replies. I get them out.

I get them out. And then literally, I start to get like the slack, start coming in while I'm on the bridge, like you crest the top of the Manhattan Bridge and as you're on your way down, you're like, oh, okay, okay, okay. And then there's a lot of like, yes, going into tunnel, interesting, we'll call you,

and then I'm on the other side. Yeah. Well, that's great. That's a great auto-responder situation. A great auto reply. I mean, I've found that I actually started using the automatic text responses, which I think is a bad sign. Yeah. It's like, yes, no, okay. Maybe let me call you back. Because what are you at? What are you at that point?

Like, you can't just feel like a stochastic robot. Like, can't it figure out what my response would be. I mean, why not? It should be able to. Right. I think this is about the time. It's a perfect opportunity. I'm going to take a break.

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Zero. Xer. Zero is beautiful accounting software built to help small businesses be more productive and successful. Sign up for a free 30 day trial at zero.com slash podcasts. We're back with Paul Ford. What were we talking about when we left off? Do you remember? I don't know. I just bought a Raspberry Pi.

We could talk about that. Ooh. Do you really want to talk about that? No, really. Can you tell us what a Raspberry Pi is for those who might be listening that don't know what a Raspberry Pi is? A Raspberry Pi is a credit card size computer that comes with absolutely nothing. No.

Can I ask you a question? Yeah. Does the idea, does the credit card size computer part of that and make you the most excited? Oh, yeah. That's, see, I feel like when you just said that, I mean, I know obviously nobody raspberry pi is obviously because I'm a huge nerd, but it does, it does, there's something like deep in my, in my body. When I hear something like credit card size computer, right? Cause he's very excited. He's spent your whole childhood going like, oh, I put a square on the screen and it was some 8-bit or 16-bit piece of garbage.

And then now you can buy this thing for $35. What's weird about it for me is like, computers will be free for my children. They'll be nothing. They don't care. They kind of already are. They can get a phone on contract for free. I mean, you have to pay for the contract, but. Exactly, right? And it's a computer essentially. It's just going to suffuse everything. If it's $35 now, it'll be $5 in a couple of years.

It's like, it's all these things that, I do remember just 10 years ago, buying machine, it's just too freaking expensive. You just spent a whole bunch of money to get it. I blew $4,000 once in 1998 on a computer. No, I mean, the idea of, and then we're gonna get really nerdy here in a second. The idea of good enough didn't really exist at some point,

like 10 years ago, good enough didn't exist. There wasn't, good enough wasn't good enough to be reasonable for a word. Yeah, even my word processing was slow. Right. You did like a series like a 486, like a Pentium II. Like a Neon High Tower. Yeah.

No, I mean, I had, I mean, I, you know, of course. With a turbo switch. Yeah. Just like that thing. Yeah, just go. Turbo switch was good. No, but people didn't know like, you know, it was like the web, I mean, 10 years ago, but if you don't remember it's a 10 years ago, there's basically almost no internet.

I mean, think about, no, it wasn't like prevalent universal everywhere internet. There's not Twitter, Facebook was nascent. You kind of had a friend who existed. Probably had a cell phone. You had a Nokia or like a Sony Ericsson, a flip phone. You had a Sony Ericsson or a Razer.

Yeah, the Razers were good. And the Razer had some sort of pathetic little internet capability where you could look at a WAP site. Yeah, you know, I had a trio. I had a trio. Well, what's the, that would have been 2007 or 2006. Right, I mean, that's the thing like it actually is this pretty recent window. Yeah. Total transformation. No, no, it's not. We actually forget really quickly that if you go back to 2000, just think about 2000 for a second, what was that long ago? The Matrix was came out in 1999.

This was the start of the new millennium. There was nothing that you know or use on the internet didn't exist, not any of it. Smartphones didn't exist, nobody used them. The Blackberry may have existed, no, I don't know if it, some weird, extremely Canadian form, the blackberry existed.

Yeah, it was probably like a big brick of a thing. It was like a, it was just one huge jog dial. Would you remember the fantasy of that arrow was that you were gonna be able to like, facts from the beach. Like you could, you could, you could, you could laptop to the beach. Yeah, they were selling laptops with a built in facts.

Right. You could scan it through in between where the monitor, where the screen met the keyboard. There was a spot where you could just put a facts straight through. That's a good stuff. Built in printers, right? I did that. I invented that product. Oh, that's cool.

I don't think it's that good. No, there was always a built-in, like, there were always a little printers. Like, there's a little, they were, they, yeah, just like, downsized in. Yeah, like, there's these little printers that were like, a square inch and then like as wide as a piece of paper. Right. And that was, it was a great, you could put, you could feed a page through and come out printed

and that was seen as a big, that's how we're gonna evolve. So like you're in the hotel and you don't even have to go to kinkos, you can just print that purple. You print that right there and then take it downstairs in fact it. Seriously, if you go look at wired in like 90, it's literally just people on the beach with equipment. No, the best thing about looking at wired

is actually a great way to gauge how far we've come because if you look at wired in 2000, they just started I think around 2000, or maybe even, yeah, to put.com addresses in ads. Right. Where it was like, HP.com if they had one or, you know, Epson, Epson probably had a website. That didn't happen. There was a period for many, many, many years of wire, which was the most cutting edge.

We were going to get so many emails about Epson. Like, you know, you know, it was like, oh, Epson actually turned into like K-Wong consolidated industries in 1990. Yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's not true. No, as it existed in 99 and they were the first ever. Remember the Q-cat? Oh, do I remember the Q-cat? Yeah, of course I do. But anyhow, they were like, oh, this will get you, this will get your links faster

with this thing. They were always trying to get you to, well, this is the same thing you are, because they're still trying with the QR codes. But they've gotten you a little bit. They have you a little bit. They've jammed it in there with two factor authentication and stuff, but nobody went to QR codes. But they've gotten you a little bit. They have you a little bit. They've jammed it in there with two factor authentication and stuff. But nobody cares about QR codes.

Only when you're setting up your Google two factor, do you encounter a QR code? Seriously, it's the only time, right? And then you have to... You don't know the Apple Watch setup is actually interesting. No, I don't know that much. When you set up the... You tell me, let me tell you about a poll.

When you set up the Apple Watch, you actually, it's like, pair this with your phone and it gives you an said that the Apple Watch, you actually, it's like, pair this with your phone, and it gives you an image on the Apple Watch, which is a kind of angelating 3D, like, sort of like, I don't know how to describe, it's almost like a 3D shell that's expanding and angelating, and you take a pick, you know, you get your phone, your camera lined up with it, and somehow, it's their QR code. It's Apple's the most beautiful, sensual QR code that's ever existed, and that's how it starts pairing with your phone. Which is very exciting.

It did not work the first time I set it up with the Apple reps. They were very, there was a lot of sideways glances. Anyhow, let's get back on topic here. So you wrote this novel. Yeah, thanks for being there. You weren't added there are harpers. I didn't know this. I'm not a big harper. I mean, we've been subscribing to harpers forever. Sure. And so presumably,

you've done stuff in the magazine, right? I added it. So mostly what I did, I did, I have, yeah, not too much though. What I did was I went in, what, 2005. And for five years, I was there, as they're mostly working on their website. So there wasn't a lot there when I went in 2005. And for five years, I was there as they're mostly working on their website. So there wasn't a lot there when I went in. I would imagine Harpers was the, I mean,

might have been the very last website in the world to exist, had it not been for you. It's a complicated story. The publisher is not a very large fan of the internet. No, I've read comments. Yeah. So I lived that actually. One point he was just like, I was like, hey, we should do more with our archive. And he was just like, I feel that you are McNamara getting me further into the Vietnam of the internet. He said those words.

Yeah, those are the actual, that was my life, man. That should give you an idea of how seriously people took journalism and publishing in the early part of the 2000. Yeah, God, I like today when it's just a joke. That was, no, but admittedly, we're less precious about our, we don't have everybody admits now, like it's over. You know, like we've got, we've crossed the threshold

into the new, whatever the new era is. Not everybody, but more people do. I think also just like, everything's been around for 20 years and people are like, yeah, I kind of want to just check my email and get some stuff done. Right. So you know, you think there is still holdouts there like listen, we're not like, I guess monical, they don't want to have a Twitter account. I mean, you know, there's always going to be people who are like, no, this is our platform over here. My phone just, I just got an alert. I'm so sorry. No,

that's okay. And I'm sorry to everybody in the booth there. Let me turn this, this is a new phone. Of course. I said I put it on airplane mode but that didn't stop my calendar from alerting me to a very important meeting. I let the Samsung, okay. Is it? Yeah.

It's the new Samsung, which I don't think, I don't think I'm gonna be keeping. Okay. But I did spend my hard earned money on it. Okay. And I'm disappointed so far. Okay, but I did spend my hard-earned money on it. Okay. And I'm disappointed so far. Sorry. Unrelated.

Anyhow, you're gonna buy an Apple Watch? Um, well, I'm not wearing it right now. Yeah. And I haven't felt tremendously burdened by the fact that I'm not wearing it. Uh, I like watches. Right. I mean, I'm not like a watch, bro, like I'm really, you know, I don't have a vast collection of manly watches. Right. I mean, I'm not like a watch, bro. Like, I'm really, you know, I don't have a vast

collection of manly watches. I do have a few that I like, and I do like the idea of the way watches are designed, and I like the idea of what watches are. Actual mechanical watches. And I don't like the way, I mean, basically, if I were looking at a bunch of watches and the Apple Watch was one of them,

just sit on scene, I don't know what it is. I wouldn't go, that's square one. Okay. Because I don't like square watches. Okay. In fact, I sort of detest square watches. Well, that's, that's proud for you then with this. I don't detest, but the Apple Watch is so interesting and clever and fascinating that it's made

me detest them slightly less. Gotcha. So you had fun with it. Yeah, it's not a complete, you know, it's not a total failure. No, no, no. It's not one of these things where it's like they swung and they missed. No, it's just I find it fascinating because it is there is definitely a blank sleep thing going on where people are just like, like, I felt for the journalist

who had to produce enormous amounts of words about it because it was just like, you did a project onto that thing. I actually, my biggest struggle in writing the review was I couldn't just, when you review a phone, just like you have a phone couldn't just, when you review a phone, it's just like you have a phone, okay? Even if you have a phone that isn't a smartphone, you understand the basic concept of this thing you carry around and people can contact you

and you get some text messages. This is like, you don't understand the concept at all. You don't know what it is, because nobody really knows what it is. And maybe Apple doesn't know what it is exactly. They're trying to like colonize a space on your body and they're like, once we get there, we'll what it is. And maybe Apple doesn't know what it is. They're trying to colonize the space on your body and they're like, yeah, once we get there, we'll figure it out.

But we don't know. We just see the, like they're looking into a telescope, like wrists, we see wrists. No, I mean, there is, at one point I asked up some Apple representatives, I said, what's the, why does this exist? And they were like, it's our most personal device ever. And I said, no, I know that's part of your, I know that's the literature on this.

And I agree with you, it is extremely personal, it's wrapped around my body. And I can't escape it when it wants me. But what's the reason? And they had a couple of things, you know, this or that activity and communication. And they're all fine reasons. But none of them are the slam dunk, like, look, you have to have a phone. People have to be able to contact you,

and you have to be able to contact people in the modern world, and you can't do it without your phone now. You're basically... It's just really tricky, right? Because it's, I think it's a level, they know that, it's a power. So they know... They don't have a purpose.

They know they just, like, they want to get onto the wrist, and if they can get on the wrist, they'll figure it out, they're smart, they have the right people. They know they know they just like, they want to get onto the wrist. And if they can get on the wrist, they'll figure it out. They're smart. They have the right people. But as a $700 billion company, you can't go like, we're going to figure this out after you buy one.

Right. Right. What they can, they can, right? Not a lot of people can, but they can't really market that exactly. So it's got to be like, it's so personal. What did you know why the iPad existed when they introduced it?

No. Do you still, do you know why now? Oh, I see what you mean. No, because I had a netbook and it was really bad. I was like, I probably, I probably don't know. This is better than that book. Well, because iPhones were so great when you first saw them, so I'm like, yeah, all right. I mean, it was, the thing about the iPad

is it just wasn't like, it wasn't exciting in the same way that the iPhone was because it was just a bigger iPhone. But also, I got, that's, I left Harper's to go work on an iPad project. So I was actually kind of excited because my whole life was turning. Oh, you were thinking about the iPad

before the iPad existed. Yeah, like my, my wife went for me and waited in line to get one. Yeah. I waited in line, I was actually talking to somebody about this today. I waited in line for the original iPhone as part of one of the, one of the early things I did for when I

worked at AOL, I didn't get it when I was just really blogging post post my music career which I thought had made me a failure for life. And you know not having not being a celebrity. Basically what I thought made me a failure was I didn't become the Brad Pitt of trans music. That was the metric for you. No, I don't know what the metric was but I don't know what Brad Pitt of trans music. That was the metric for you? No, I don't know what the metric was, but I don't know what success is anymore.

For what is success in music? I think if you can support yourself. Oh, I'm not really sure. But if you look at society, success in music is Katy Perry is success in music. Yeah, but that's madness. That's right. Like I mean, yeah, I mean.

But even who's a small, who's an indie band? You like, you know, that's right. Yeah, I mean, even but even who's a small who's an indie band? You like you know that's successful Stays together vampire weekend. I mean, they're okay. They said millions of records. Yeah, they're very successful Yeah, there's celebrities. Yeah, they're lovely guys from what I understand But what was they talking about? Weaving in line for the iPhone. Yeah, and and I was interviewed by the Globe and Mail Okay, and I remember I was just recounting this to somebody. And I was very pleased that they noticed, well, I thought it was nice that they noticed that I was reading both us weekly and Lolita. Those are the two things I had on my bag. They're very interested to know what people in line were doing.

Sure. That definitely sends us drunk signal. A bad one, I think, ultimately. It's a pretty terrible signal, but you got through it. I did. Anyhow, what were we talking about? The eye watch, the iPad. No, it's not the eye watch. It's the Apple watch. It's the Apple watch.

Good, good. You know what it would be? One of these people who say eye touch. No, I know, I got to send you a call. Don't be that guy. The Apple sent me here to test you. Oh, that's the reason. Okay, well, here's what we're going to do.

We're going to take a break, and then we're gonna come back, and we're gonna talk about, I have some other things I wanna talk to you about that are slightly less nerdy, and slightly more important than the Apple Watch. Right. Right. Right. Right.

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I don't even know if they have a phone number, honestly. But who needs a phone when you're talking to somebody on the internet? I mean, do you find that preferable to the phone, don't you? Yes, I do. I mean, I'd prefer to chat with somebody. No, I like a good live chat where they can really engage with you is a superior product. I actually do call people from time to time.

Yeah, but if the live chat works, and they, especially if it's like for a web thing, and they can just be like, oh, here, check out this link, do this, I fix the account, and here's the root password for all your friends. Right. They would never do that, obviously, but I don't think they would give you, yeah, I don't think they would do that,

but they probably would fix your problem. And this is Squarespace we're talking about. That's what I'm talking about. Right. I just, I, for Squarespace, live chat's going to be a much better issue. Of course. What are you even going to ask them? I mean, why would you even need support because it's so easy and simple to do? But if you do, if you have to do it, they've got a 24-7. It's $8 a month, which is very affordable, and you get a free domain if you buy Squarespace for the year. The responsive design, your website scales to look great on any device, which is I would say table stakes at this point. You've got to have a site that works on every screen.

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and to show your support for our podcast. Thanks, Squarespace, for your support of tomorrow, Squarespace, build a beautiful. Let's talk about your writing a little bit because one of the things that I think, when I think of you now, I've never thought of you before really, but when I think of Paul Ford, first I think, what a great name, what a great solid, very easy to pronounce and easy to spell name. Yeah, there are like nine million of them in the world. Sure. What a great solid, very easy to pronounce and easy to spell name. Yeah, there are like nine million of them in the world.

Sure, but the difference, that's bad. That's a negative. You have to be, you know, figure out what to carve out your own Paul Ford space. But on the flip side, nobody ever misspells any part of your name. Never a problem. Have you ever had anybody misspell your name? Sure.

Yeah, they get forced, they get like fried. I mean, just they hear the word for it. Oh, no, they screw it up. No, things are hard for people. I don't believe that. Human beings have a challenging time with all sorts of orthographic things. Well, words are complicated. Yeah, I think they are. Do you? Yeah. So what is a great segue? So, so you, you write a lot. I mean, you write quite a bit. Yeah. And, and on the internet about the internet often, but not always about the internet. Sometimes off the internet about other things than the internet. So you wrote a piece that that maybe I said this, I might have said this to you before the podcast, but I'm going to repeat it. My wife, Lord June, who is also a writer, said, this is the most Paul Ford thing the Paul has written. And it's about being polite.

It's about how you're polite. And how your politeness is something that it's studied politeness. You've spent time cultivating a polite demeanor. Well, you know, I don't know if you had this experience, but you sometimes you grew up and just feel like a robot. You're like, what is going on here with these people? I, I don't know what that, no. I didn't have that. So for me, I'm just like, what, how am I supposed to be?

Even in this situation. Oh, oh, like, how do I interact with other people? Yeah. Oh, because, like, Adolescence just feels like you just got dropped off by a spaceship. Something like that. Oh, no, no, no, no, that's right. Okay, sorry, I misunderstood,

but I definitely, every, to this sorry, I misunderstood, but I definitely, every, to this day, I still, when I get in a room full of people, I think, how am I gonna do this? So I have a lot of, like, I think about that problem a lot, or I'm like, I'm a very shy person, I'm not always comfortable. And so, like, it's tips and tricks. And so, like, I picked up, it's like a,

I mean, tips and tricks, it's like a, I mean tips and tricks. It's like a, what are the guides they used to have for video games that were like? Oh, they were like tips and tricks. It was tips and tricks. Centipede. It was like the code for contra or whatever. Right, right, right. This is the contra code for polite conversation.

Well, all right. So for human interaction. So there's a few things going on with that piece. Like one is, I believe that when you write for the internet, I have this little sneaking suspicion that the thing will always put a piece over the top as if it has like a slight service component. So you can say anything. You can be like, let's talk about Vic and Stein, but as long as you like, and here's how to really get out stubborn stains, people will be like, that's a good piece. I mean, that is, I mean, let's stay on that for a second, because I actually agree with that. And I, but I do feel like there is this,

we are desperate now for explaining. I mean, you know, there's all these, like, explain the news, me and Novox does it. A lot of BuzzFeed does it all the time and a lot of other news sites, new news sites. It's like explaining what's going on, right? There's this kind of analysis or commentary on what's just happened. And I'm gonna give you my pet theory, which is not that pet of a theory. I mean, I feel like it's made up of other people's theories and I's just happened. And I'm gonna give you my pet theory,

which is not that pet of a theory. I mean, I feel like it's made up of other people's theories and I'm just borrowing. But I do think, you remember after 9-11, yes, I am talking about 9-11. After 9-11, there was a, I remember there were some studies or some reports that came out that the sale

of nonfiction books was like through the roof. Everybody was out buying like why they hate us or whatever the books are. The looming tower, man. Yeah. That was a good moment for the looming tower. And fiction plummeted sales of novels. They were not doing well. By the way, when did your novel come out?

2005. It's called The Long Tale of 9-11. Yeah. I think that could have had an impact. More of the bad second half of the novel. But we're very lucky. It's hard to say. Hard to say.

I think we should blame it on the cultural forces far beyond your control. Sure. But, you know, so people got into this thing where they were like, okay, first off, they realized, wow, the world is really big and we don't know anything about it. And then it was, okay, fill me in, like fill in the blanks because I don't know what's happening. I want to know because that'll make me feel safe or more secure. And I think that what's happened in journalism,

the servicy part of it that you're describing, which is an industry term that a person who doesn't work in journalism might actually not know, which is essentially, well, it is what it sounds like. It's servicy, it's... It's how to. It's a how to. But that stuff is really is we've progressed from that

Tell me explain to me what's going on in the world as we've accelerated how quickly you get information How quickly you get the first part of the news, which is this thing happened? Yeah, we've accelerated the second part Which is tell me why it happened or tell me what's going to happen next and so we've ended up in this place where we're in a I don't know if it's bad. I don't know if it's good or bad honestly I think we've changed the way our brains work when it comes to news But I'm really just rambling now. No, I mean look the if it's bad, I don't know if it's good or bad, honestly, I think we've changed the way our brains work when it comes to news, but I'm really just rambling now. No, I mean, look, the way I see it is that, the things that seem to succeed really well online

are those that sort of offer you some sort of power or even super power, like if they're just like, if you do this, you will get this. Life hacks, life hacks is perfect example, right? Like this, and there's like if you know if you know how to have genes that look really broken in but never wash them yeah like I was just reading a Josie article from Esquire or something that's right all these tips and tricks on you know spray them with vodka well see there's a rich tradition of this in every like Non-literary, like every like a men's interest or women's interest magazine or any part of the media that

Most of the world interacts with there's tons of that stuff It's like use lemon juice and blah blah blah. It's just kind of all wrapped up and then on the web It's all broken into 8 million little pieces and it kind of all, then Wikipedia shows up and that started to become kind of like a weird data center for the entire web where everybody's like, okay, this is where the information will be. And so I think there's just this path that everybody takes to assuage their fears, try to become more powerful,

try to gain more authority and control over their world. Like, if you look, why would you buy a newspaper? Everyone's like, preserve journalism. Like, if you look, why would you buy a newspaper? Like, everyone's like, preserve journalism. Like, who no one wants to do that? Like, you buy a newspaper so that you have some sense of control and authority over your own existence. That's what it's supposed to do. Information.

Right. It delivers that to you, right? And so, like, so for me, I wrote a piece. Because so what happened at Harper's, I had like tens of thousands of users, and there was very little web budgets. I was in charge of, I built a big archive, and I put the whole of the happened at Harper's? I had like tens of thousands of users, and there was very little web budgets. I was in charge of, I built a big archive, and I put the whole of the history of Harper's back to 1850 up online, like scanned it,

programmed it, whatever, and then after I launched it, I'm like, oh my God, I'm screwed, because it worked pretty well, and thousands of people were sending me emails asking for help, and how can I log in, and you know, they couldn't get to it through AOL because of unusual proxy settings. Like I had all this stuff to deal with, I was asking for help and how can I log in? And you know, like, they couldn't get to it through AOL because of unusual proxy settings.

Like, I had all this stuff to deal with. And I realized from how they were interacting with me that at some level of the web really functions in this very like consumer service way, right? And so it's just like, so I started to think about the web as a consumer service medium, not necessarily for publishing. And then I started to look around at things like, and then it sort of fell out of my brain at that point that the fundamental question that, like, on the web for the reader is this

kind of like, why wasn't I consulted? So, so they look at, so if you, and if you look at like the big sites, like you look at, yeah, who answers or, or Wikipedia or just all these user generated content driven sites that are completely massive and then Twitter is a perfect example. Like, that seems to be where people are coming from. They're just going like, why? What my voice needs to be in there. Right.

Well, we got to, but do we get to this idea and I don't know where it came from that the point of the internet was to get your voice out there and connect. What's really true, because there's that moment in the 90s when John Perry Barlow was writing that, I don't know if you remember this hero or this manifesto and it was just like, oh, governments, you weary giants of steel and it was just like, no, cyber spaces here.

Right, right. And like, so there was this whole earth catalog, 60, 70s vibe of like, this is it. Everyone gets a voice, everyone is equal, right. And like, so there was this whole earth catalog 60, 70's vibe of like, this is it. Everyone gets a voice. Everyone is equal. Everyone. And then what happens, the decentralization occurs, right?

And everyone's like, oh man, wow, this is scary. We don't like this at all. We got to get there. And it gets expressed as like, they're pirating our stuff. That's one of the ways people talk about it. Or it's all full of pedophiles. That was the other way people talked about it. That's true. Both true, right? That's one of the ways people talk about it or it's all full of pedophiles. That was the other way people talked about it. Both true.

Both true, right? That's the internet. And then slowly though, new large organizations show up and started to centralize like Amazon, Twitter, Facebook, whatever. And then you kind of get this whole new order emerging and we're kind of back now. Now we're in this weird zone where the new entities are one full order of magnitude larger than the old ones. Like the Facebook is 100 times bigger than the times and it's like going to start publishing

times content. But Facebook is essentially is a version of something that we've always had on the internet. I mean, if it wasn't a piece of version. I think it was a version. But if it wasn't a BBS, it was a portal. I think it's more like the bell system. Well, portal. I think it's more like the bell system. Well, I mean, it will be more like the bell system. Yeah, I think it's like it's a mandate on that. In essence, I mean, in essence, Facebook is their ultimate goal and the

dream of Facebook is to become the internet, right? Is to be the place where the internet begins and ends. And for many users, it is that way right now. Right. I'm going to actually be an old guy for a minute and be like, I've talked to people in their 30s and 20s who don't know that there was a monopolistic single entity that controlled all of our telecommunications in like the 80s and before. Like, it's really worth looking up the bell system and realizing how big it was. But doesn't that mean that they're just going to be, at some point, isn't the government intervention? Isn't there, isn't the whole point of the government when it

intervenes in monopolies to do to avoid the thing that we're talking about? I mean, because we don't want, we don't want Facebook to own the internet. Yeah, I don't, first of all, I don't see our government actually, the government that we currently have, Obama's government. No, just the government. I just don't, it doesn't seem to be urgently looking for ways to shut down internet monopolies. Well, that neutrality, that neutrality rules are encouraging. You don't think encouraging?

I don't think no, I just think that like there's this, I mean, I think it's the iter. No, it's not that. It's just like comparing these two things, but there is an apples in the arduous thing like the the the bell system arose from scratch owned all the wires and the phones. You had to least them. There was absolutely there was no option. It was a government sanctioned monopoly and they broke it up because actually they wanted to get into computing. And so like

you're looking at a substrate of our society that controlled everything. Facebook is crazy and scary and big, but it is built on top of the internet. Now, if Facebook ever like controls has a government monopoly on all of the internet access that we have, that is problematic. But the possibility of access alone can't be enough to not break up a monopoly. I mean, the idea is, that idea is, well, look, there is a port somewhere over here or there is a way to go use the internet.

You know, Google's over here, but at some point, if Facebook is big enough, globally, do you think the web is pretty big though? I just think people like things don't seem to even Facebook. So I look at Facebook, like Facebook is enormous and monolithic, but it has to keep buying enormous monolithic things to keep going. And I also feel that there's this weird thing going on inside of it where it's like, I can't really articulate this one, but it's like when you buy WhatsApp for 19 or $21 billion, money is different like to you at that point.

Like there's clearly there's some conversion ratio from like Facebook coins into dollars that they did because they hired like, there's like a 30 person company. Yeah. Like just, but a massively global, I mean, a place where Facebook needs to be desperately, which is in India or in China, or wherever WhatsApp is very, I mean, in those are places where it's very popular. Yeah, like it's huge in Lebanon, right? Like, that's, so it's, it absolutely makes sense, and you can see, but they're just like, there's some weird calculation that's going on that is not, mortals don't really privy to. Right.

Like, they have their own currency at some level. And they're like, oh, well, the conversion ratio is pretty brutal, but we better do it. Well, I mean, for Facebook, it's like, it could be life or death. I mean, I think Facebook sees itself as the Facebook it was in 2004 when there were things like my space and friends that existed. Right. And it was this income, but it was, you know, sorry, it was trying to be the, it was trying to get a word in edgewise. Right.

And now it knows, I mean, you basically have to stop competition in its tracks, because it's seen itself, you know, you have to stop what could be Instagram is another track. Right. If you let Instagram blossom, who knows what it becomes? Maybe people don't want to share photos on Facebook anymore. So I wonder how you even recognize the monopoly, right? Because then there's like five other photos. You spend, you don't. You spend $19 billion on WhatsApp because you think it could be a monopoly.

Right. I don't think they recognize a monopoly. I think they recognize the possible creation, right? But and at the same time, then they're still acting as a very large competitive enterprise. They have more money than anybody else. Right. Well, not Apple. No, not Apple. I mean, Apple has so much more money. If Apple just decides to do something, right, like we're all in so much trouble.

I mean, they could buy. There was a list of the things they could buy recently and it was like Portugal. It was like Microsoft and Tesla. I mean, they could buy 10 of the most important companies that exist right now in technology and in innovation. Yeah. And they would still have tens of billions of dollars left just for, you know, having a good time. It's kind of phenomenal that we don't hate them more.

There's never been a company this big and terrifying. Well, it doesn't actually inspire a degree of loathing. Well, that's because Paul, they've always positioned themselves at the intersection of technology and liberal arts. But you really? Ah! And, you know, they've always thought of themselves as a company that embraces humanity.

That's true, in creativity. They make bicycles for the mind. That's right. Bicycles at sometimes rocket ships. Ah! So anyhow, you wrote this thing about politeness. Yeah, I did. You published on medium in a collection,

in a publication on medium called The Message. The Message, yes. With collaborative writing thing. And this was one of the many things you've written for the message. It was just about how you are polite and you kind of go out of your way to be polite. Yeah. And you even have games that you play.

Well, I mean, yeah. Nice games. Nice games. The games are where you're focused on a person and you try to let them talk about themselves and what they do for as long as possible. Right, exactly. Unlike this podcast, like I'm not doing that with you,

but like in general, if I'm not a party, I think I'm talking a lot. No, you're doing good. I'm getting there. The, um, yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. The, uh, the thing I try to do is just like, I don't know, you just end up at social events and you just, I just want to focus on other people.

Like I don't, I don't actually, despite the mean talking here in this podcast, I don't necessarily love the sound of my own voice. I think it's great. I don't have a ton, thank you. I don't have a ton to say. That's crazy. You know that's crazy, right? Well, I want to hear what other people are up to.

But you know, but what you just said, you know is wrong. What is wrong that you don't have a ton to say? I have a ton to say. I'm sure. But I think you have a ton to say in this environment, I think, but I think what you're saying is and I agree with, if you're in a room full of strangers You can't just I mean this is actually the small talk problem, isn't it?

I mean isn't because you didn't what you're talking about isn't polite in this kind of small talk. I love small talk Really I hate small talk. Do you think this is a kind of small talk that we're doing right now? Well, I'm we're not I'm there things we could you and I okay? So earlier we started on a conversation about racism. And I think if we were not recording ourselves and we were not worried that we were gonna say something horrible because you often do when you're talking about things like racism. The odds that you or I are gonna just completely destroy

ourselves in that kind of, we gotta be pretty high. We have to make it a little bit more like small talk. But no, I mean, yes, we're not talking about deep, philosophical and religious realities that we believe in. No, I mean, yes, we're not talking about deep, you know, philosophical and religious realities that we believe in. No, I mean, we could go there. We could go there. It's not great podcasting, though.

Really good, like, Hey, we get uncomfortable for people, isn't it? It's just like, over, they love it. Because that finally people have stripped away the bullshit and are talking about what's real in life. I know, but when you get down to what's real, it's always the same way. It's a bummer.

It's a bummer. It sounds like you sound like some 19 year olds who are high in the dorm room. Because we all believe the same, like the same stuff. It's all the same. Yeah, you gotta be really, you should be kind to people. Satan is Lord and he's going to return just like in that belief.

In the beautiful story of Prince when he carried me. We all believe. And I got beliefs in the beautiful story of Prince when he carried me. We all believe that Satan is an alien sent by a very powerful, powerful, angry alien to destroy humanity. But the, sorry, I want to talk about the politeness thing for a second, because we're way off. Of course, way off. Of course.

Whatever you want to talk about. The internet is a very impolite place. Do you agree or disagree? What is the internet actually? Can I say that still? Can I say the internet? You can, I think that that's our reference. I don't know. I don't think that the internet is that impolite.

Actually, I think it's just, it doesn't always have the best impulse control. And I feel that there's a lot of, I mean, I don't know. I seem to do pretty well. Like, I have a lot of Twitter followers and they're nice to me and I'm polite with them and I talk to lots of people and every now and then somebody like takes me to task or I remember when I wrote that politeness piece somebody got on Twitter and was like, I hate this white person. I would like to punch him into face. And I was like, well, that's unfortunate. What is your what is your whiteness after you?

I don't know exactly. I don't know. I think we're varying back into the race conversation. They were very upset about that. They were, I don't know. But I was like, oh, that's fine. I've all the things to be angry at you about in that piece. I feel like your whiteness would not be the one that stood out.

No, they felt that I was very in that piece, very dead or normative and very sort of exercising all kinds of privileges. Yeah, that's true. I'm fine. I sense a sensible criticism. I went away and thought about it after. I didn't appreciate that, like,

I don't think threats of violence are ever good. I've been on the internet for a long time and people have threatened death all the time. It just seems to be normal. Well, it just seems so easy, so much easier. I mean, you read it as the impulse control, but I'm afraid that the internet, as the internet becomes, well, that's why I asked, can I say the internet because I feel like it's becoming the wall between what is the internet and what is the

rest of how we operate this system. This is a tricky part, right? Because we always had this hypothesis, like, that's why everybody would go to like hardcore shows, like that, that there was a demon, like trying to get out. And now, now we're like seeing this demon, and it just sucks, like it's not a cool demon, like everyone is like, it's a baby. Yeah. The demon is a baby, right?

It's just toddler smash. It's like your worst baby-ish impulses. This is how I feel when I start to get cranky when I'm hungry. I start to imagine, I think of my, I think like, oh, I'm just, you know, people just say you're acting like a baby. Right.

It's because you are acting. I now have a baby, so I know, I mean, I've had a child. And I've seen how a baby acts, particularly when it doesn't get food. No, I saw this with my, when my daughter was two, about one and a half, she started a very strong opinion about her pants,

like what she could wear or not. Yeah. And I was like, I totally recognized this behavior. Like she would just be like, no. And I was like, oh, and it'd be like, it would be the yellow pants she wore two days ago. She'd be like, never. And I was like, oh, oh, like this is why we're going to upset about the gap logo. This is why we're going to upset. Anyway, yeah, look, I think that, but it's also really tricky too, because I've also seen, I've seen very smart, you know, that just as much as you might see like someone who is being really fussy about something, you'll also see like people in relative positions

of power or people who have authority or have voice or get paid to talk, which includes you and me, and people will start to nudge them on Twitter or have actually totally valid criticisms and they'll go full baby. Yeah. And it's like, I've got, I've got baby on Twitter before, but totally valid criticisms and they'll go full baby. Yeah. And it's like, I've got baby on Twitter before, but I've learned through years of practice and self-control that there's almost never a good reason to engage somebody who's attacking you on Twitter. If never ends well for anybody.

What I like to do, ideally, when there's comments on something, probably never ends well for anybody. What I like to do, ideally, like when there's comments on something, probably the most, for a brief and strange period of my life, I was one of the people who was recapping madmen for sleep. And like, that was a level of comment hell. I've never experienced in my life. Like, just madmen plus sleep. And it was just this journey through hell, like just like, I wrote a column for the Washington Post and then I think we have to wrap up because I think you and I could talk for a

long time and I feel like I haven't touched on and almost any of the things I really I want I mean we talked about a lot of things I want to talk about we can do them real fast but I feel like there's no I don't I don't want to just maybe I'll have you have to come back. But but but I wrote a column for the Washington Post when the right around when the verge started, I did this column and then we did we're doing the verge. And I've never seen, I was not exposed to the big world. I was in this little tiny nerd kind of world where the comments were, you Apple fanboy, how dare you.

This is stuff that was like political, it was social. My art, one of my articles I wrote about, at this idea about socializing, socializing the networks that we should think of that from a more social, you know, socialism could work for networks essentially. Kaboom. Reason picked it up, you know, reason.

It's like a libertarian, but with it. And within, within like 10 comments, people were actually threatening, like beatings, violent beatings. Sure. And I just had never been exposed to that level of insanity. It was like not YouTube comments

because they were more together. Yeah, no, no. YouTube's like an international kind of craziness that you sort of are like, well, maybe we don't even speak the same language that well. So we're not totally understanding each other. It's always something really stupid and it veers really fast. No, I know the kind of kind of, we kind of kind of what you're talking about.

And what I, it's like, should I buy a gun? And was that kind of thing like, should I invest in some security? There's this thing, they're done once they're done commenting. Like they've forgotten about it. It's their release. The thing that like, there's this, yeah, there's this moment as we're recording this, Hillary Clinton is just announced that she, there's this, yeah. There's this moment, as we're recording this, Hillary Clinton is just announced that she's gonna run.

And like the number of takes that appeared from major media organizations. Hot takes. Hot takes, but these weren't like internet hot takes. These were like, it was like almost these big kids come out to play all of a sudden and I'm like, oh, here we go. Like there's a huge apparatus

that's about to get moving and like, and those people are really good at that. They're really good at just like being hated and going. And we haven't actually lived. This is, I think we're in a new era in terms of the hot takes and the explainers and where we are right now in terms of how people communicate on the internet.

This, the LACTION. The LACTION. 570 days. So that's the internet. This election is going to be scorched. It's a whole new, I mean, do you know how many stories about maps that explain the election we're going to see? I mean, can you even, well, because also comprehend. But everybody's got a cash in on their big investment. Like ESPN has to make sense of what they did with Nate's over like, like the upshot over the top. Yeah, they've also be in full,

Vox will be, I think Vox is actually better situated than anybody right now, because you know what they're going to do, and it's gonna work sometimes. Yeah, a lot of the time it's gonna work, but they have like buzzfeed a situational well situated. I don't know, Buzzfeed, that's gonna be interesting to see, right?

Because it's like, they don't do the grist for the mill in the same way that I've experienced. I've experienced pro two seven. Remember 538 and you're just like, oh, I'm gonna just, I'm gonna reload it. And then like, like, like, like 538 became like the Twitter of the internet. You're just like chewing. No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, if 538 became like the Twitter of the internet. You're just like chewing

No, no, no, no, I mean when 538 the whole point was it was the it was like the one thing you could rely on exactly I just tried. I want and it's so far away and I just desperately like how long can I hold out because there's always here just like I'm not going to care. I'm just going to like focus on the issues. I'm going? Because there's always here just like, I'm not gonna care. I'm just gonna focus on the issues. I'm gonna make my own decision and just like move forward. That's how you're thinking, right? And you're like, well, looking at my about. And then now it's like, no, this is gonna be,

this is gonna be a nightmare. No, it's gonna be great. Like Twitter is going to be, and I think we should just get off of Twitter during the electric cycle. Healer is going to raise $2.5 billion. Imagine that ad spend on social media. Can you, if there are gonna be so many promoted tweets

just like in your timeline. Think about when you're on Instagram. And they know who we are. We are promoted, Hillary for America. This is the thing, they know who we are now. They know how we're gonna vote. They know everything, because thanks to Facebook. Right, so they're just gonna lock that down

and you're not gonna get to move. Like it's just gonna be clockwork orange for everybody, right or left, you're just gonna get, someone's gonna drill into your eye hole with their sentiment, and we're not even gonna know what the other people are seeing. You're not even gonna know what they're gonna be watching. It won't matter.

The election is basically already over. Yeah, the Republicans are gonna... I mean, Facebook can probably tell us right now who's going to win. The Republicans are gonna be over there going like like doing ads about Hillary Clinton eating a baby And we'll never see it like we'll never know. Yeah, let's just be all the famous baby eater and we'll be like 10 years from now We'll be like what was that? How did that happen? How did she lose? Yeah, and then everybody all the people who voted for the Republican candidate We'll say the well the baby eater. Yeah, baby eater. I have a president eats a baby. Once they revealed that, it was all over.

Yeah. And we'll say what? What? We saw her holding a baby. Don't be like, get back to the slave camp. Yeah. Blue state. And then we'll take our hollow cell back.

Oh, it's going to be back of the track. Look, it's going to be rough, man. We got to be strong. I can't top. I said hollow cell. We'll edit's gonna be rough, man. We gotta be strong. I can't top. I said hollow sell. We'll edit out that hollow sell parkers. I can't top the amazing sci-fi idea you had about what would happen post-hillary losing in America,

which I think also kind of showcases where your political attentions lie. Oh, yeah. Okay, well, I think that's the end of a very strange and exciting episode. Really enjoyed my stuff. I enjoyed's the end of a very strange and exciting episode. Really enjoyed myself. I enjoyed it too. Thank you for coming and doing this. And I was very nervous beforehand that I don't know that I wasn't prepared or that we wouldn't know. We had fun. This is one of the best conversations I've ever had in my entire life. Wonderful.

I'm not just saying that. And I feel like you and I who we've not had that many conversations. We're busy dads. We're busy dads, but also, yeah, I mean, but I now I feel like we should talk more because there's things that I want to talk to you about. Sure, anytime. Well, we'll make it happen. Okay, so thank you. Again, you're welcome, thank you.

That is tomorrow for this week. We will be back next week, of course, because this is a weekly podcast. And if I don't do it every week, I get sent back to the camp. Of course. Yeah, it's bad news. It's bad news to camp. And thank you for listening.

And you're, thank you to our sponsors for supporting this crazy endeavor. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best, even though things that are coming up ahead, things that are about to happen to you, the people you love will be born. Quite horrible indeed. you