Tomorrow - Episode 24: Rembert Browne and Joey Fett Save the Internet

Episode Date: September 20, 2015

Rembert Browne breaks a Tomorrow record by returning to the studio a mere week after he left. The sequel starts just where the original left off as Josh and Rembert enter into a deep discussion on the stale state of the media, the Twitter news bubble, and selling out in the internet age. You'll come for the inside look at how news is made, you'll stay for the shocking Star Wars-related reveal. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow I'm your host, Joshua Topolsky. Today on the podcast, we'll discuss Nirvana, Turn Table FM, and Viral Vampires. But first, a word from our sponsor. The episode is brought to you by a wealth front. Well front is a low cost automated investment service that makes it easy to invest your money the right way. This type of thing would be great for me because I have no idea how to invest my money. In fact, I'm dangerously stupid when it comes to investing my money, which is where something

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My guest today is a familiar voice and a familiar name. Part two. This is part two of the Rember Brown Supercast. I demanded in part two. I just invented that. Can I tell a little bit of the story of how part two came about? Yeah, let's talk. Yeah, okay, we're just gonna get into it

because we don't have any time to waste. Yeah. Because Rem was slightly late to the studio today. That'll be deal. I was late. That'll be deal. He came in, demanded water, was insane. I'll be the diva He came in demanded water was insane So the last we finished the last podcast and then we talked afterwards you and I

Yes, and we had a really good conversation and then like the night before the podcast went up You were like can we redo the podcast because the conference basically I really like the conversation we had at nothing you didn't like the conversation We had you turn me up a little bit. little quiet here Paul sorry Magnus by the way is not in the studio today so it's a very weird vibe you really enjoyed the conversation we had afterwards you wanted to have that conversation on the air then I was like let's do part two just real we were having a very kind of unreal thing we're having I'm having, I'm so real, I don't think people don't know about realists.

I'm extremely real. A lot of people miss that about me. We were having a very loud animated conversation about the race to the bottom of the internet in a pretty empty restaurant. Basically empty. There was one guy there, who had a room. I think the whole staff was just like,

just like, became very, our audience for our- Were they listening? I think they were listening. They're like, well, these guys are fucking smart. Or they're like, these guys are insane. Like annoying, but they're ordering drinks. Yeah, they're ordering drinks, but like, who cares about the internet?

It's true though, but the things we were talking about, I think a lot of people don't talk about or think about or care about. This is actually interesting because this week it's all been all about like ad blocking and like businesses dying and, you know, like media, bedlam. Yeah.

But we were talking about a lot of what we talked about. And a lot actually I've talked about this. I had Matt Buchanan and John Hermanon. We talked a little bit about this, you know, Matt. I like one of them. I'm kidding. I like that. Which one?

You know, actually, this is John, right? This is unfortunate. What? I do not know John Herman. Oh really? I love what he's a lot like Matt of them. I'm kidding. I like. Which one? You know actually is John right? This is unfortunate. What I do not know John Herman. Oh really? I thought he's a lot like Matt Buchanan. I've always I'm sure he's a red head. I've always wanted to know John Herman But I don't know. He's a nice guy. I love you can and he's no Matt. You can he's a Georgia boy Buchanan every he is every time He goes he flies into Atlanta. I get a text from him. He'd be like and he's like you in Atlanta It's like here I am. No, no, like, you know Atlanta? It's like, here I am. No, no, no, I would you be glad. I mean, cool. You live, you don't live there.

So we were just talking about, but I've talked about this a bit, and it's something that's on my mind a lot. I wrote about it, I've been thinking about it. Like, it's kind of sucks, stuff sucks on the internet a lot of the time lately. Like, the content, I hate, I hate, by the way, I hate the word content.

A bad, I hate it bad, but there's like not a better stuff is the other word that I use. So the stuff that's on the internet is bad, like on several levels. Tell me, let's talk about, like tell me what you think is going on out there. So here's what I, so I try not to say, or talk about my life in terms of content that much.

But you love content though. I mean, you're a content producer. I think I'm in like a, I go through phases where I am actively trolling myself and by trolling myself, I'm trolling everyone. Because, yes, like in ways, part of my job has been to be a provider on the internet, like make stuff for the internet, make stuff for consumption that other people can,

I'm sure you're like feeding the beast. Yeah, for me though, as soon as something goes up, and oftentimes, as soon as I turn something in, my work and care is done. You're over. It would be to sound for me to say, I don't care about the response, because I do care about the response. I don't like the idea of writing things in a vacuum, but of all the things to be concerned about, everything that happens once something is made public, I just like, I can't, I've tried so many times to care about that side of media.

And I just like the echo chamber of people talking about the things. I mean, the echo chamber of people talking about the things. I mean the echo chamber of people talking about things to, you know, the way it's cross-platform promoted. That's the first time I've ever said that out loud. Cross-platform, you love cross-platform. I don't even know how does he don't know what that means. Cross-platform is like, you know, it's on multiple- Facebook, on multiple platforms. Yeah. All that stuff, like that's the business of- That's not the- you're not making part. Yeah, and in my mind, that's becoming a a very crowded world where everyone is not even a crowded world. It's like an

easier world to become a part of right and the world of actually making good stuff is becoming a smaller and smaller world where it's almost beginning to feel like a craft again or like a a skill writing things that aren't just met to be cross-platform So would you say would you say and crack me if I'm misunderstanding but There's but there's basically like, there's stuff that's made to travel essentially. Like it's built designed for maximum exposure. Yes.

Right. And then there's like the stuff that I think you care about and I care about deeply and and and maybe wish there was more of, which is like, it can travel, it will travel. It sometimes is amazing at traveling, but it's primary purpose is not like, how can I get, how can you get the maximum? And I'm not gonna call shit clickbait, because I think clickbait is like a catch-all

that is not fair, but there is, does seem to be an enormous amount of content that is not driven by the desire to make something good, it's driven by the desire to make something popular. Yeah, and I enjoy dwelling in a world of writing things that, just the way they look on paper is not designed to travel, but it may or but it's sometimes still does. That's like not a, for me, it's like, that's not a formula. It's just like, it was good.

It traveled because people liked it. Because it worked, because the idea was good. There is just a formula to make things travel. Right. Like you've been doing your taxes all wrong. Yeah. We were talking about this. I don't know if we talked about it on the air last time, but I tend not to talk about

my taxes on the air. But it's the article that is like you've been doing your taxes all wrong. Like that story is not like, I'm going to write the best article about like, how to do your taxes in the world probably. Yeah. It's more like, how can I get somebody to look at the story about some little factoid about taxes I picked up? I mean, I think it's a real problem.

I think, but the question is, what's the solution? Well, so here's another thing. I say all of that, and then you're working on it. You've been doing your taxes all wrong. I don't have the visceral reaction that I think some people do that. I think it's like evil or it's like a problem. It's just like I don't need to be in the business of that. I don't need to be in a universe where I am doing things

to make them travel, to write, to make content that is easily distributed on Snapchat. Like I don't, I can't stop that. Yeah, what's your Snapchat? You know, what's your strategy? I deleted it. That was my, that was my, that was, I don't get, I mean, I don't want to, like, I do want to pick up on what you're saying,

but Snapchat, I understand why people are using it and I do occasionally use it, I don't really, it doesn't really connect for me on any deep level. And that's okay, that's the thing. Is it completely okay? I'm trying to get my stories moving on Snapchat. And like, if you cared, if you spent a week,

you would be very good at Snapchat. I'm gonna do a thing where I walk around, like doing a selfie video where I read a story that I've written. Yeah. Does that seem like a good way to engage the viewer? One time I was on a, I was on a, I was stuck on the tarmac and I just downloaded Periscope.

And just Periscope myself reading a whole sky mall. Oh my God. It was probably very popular. Did a lot of people tune in? Got a lot of, had a lot of impact. Did you get a lot of engagement on that? A lot of engagement. Was it a Dico viral?

I don't know if it went viral. I'd like to think that it did. Sounds like it should have if it didn't. I can just see that on Buzzfeed right now. I like, and that's why. Dude, I'll stuck on playing Reed's entire Sky Mall catalog on Periscope. You have to admit that does sound like a story you might read today. Yeah, and here's the thing.

That's okay. I don't have any issue. I mean, it's kind of like the way I treat Twitter. It's like I still behave on Twitter like I did when I had like 17 followers, where it's just like this is like a fun place. Occasionally I talk to my friends. Like this bullshit you pulled the other night

during the debate. What bullshit? When you're like 300 retweets, you're the best tweet of all time. And I'm like, I have doing everything I can't call in people on the phone. Like you got to retweet this. Yeah.

And then you didn't do it. I was like, I never ran. What was the tweet? I couldn't, I was trying to upload a photo and my Twitter kept crashing when I hit my photo library. Wait, that was gonna be the best, the photo. Yeah. So it was a photo.

I had a caption too. Can I see it? Is this like too late? It was a test for the all-time, the best. I stopped watching the debate. And just, I literally was doing, like, just refreshing your profile to see that tweet, to see. I that tweet to see. I was trying to do it.

I was ready. You got more than 300 tweets. I was ready. I could try this though sometimes. You were just, like, give me 300 tweets and I'll do something and people did it. They're like, okay. I mean, like, every other week, I'm just, I get bored. I'm like, you know what?

Uh, I just tweet, like, some big news, which is my favorite Twitter when someone makes an announcement. I was like, I have some, some news or some big news. Yeah. And then just, it's always. There's some bullshit. And like one day it's actually gonna be like, some big news like, it's like the boy who cried wolf. You know what's gonna find a can.

You know, it's a big news. Like I'm working for, I'm the president. I'm working at IBM now. Yeah, I'm people be like, no, don't care. Yeah. It's guys lying. And you really are either the president or or working at IBM.

Those are the only two possibilities. But see, I think that makes you better on Twitter than people who are worried about content and their brand and being viral, because like your shit's like real and it's interesting. I just want everyone to be humans as often as possible. Yeah, so do I. So I'm moving this lamp. It's too bright. Everyone to be humans as often as possible. Yeah, so do I. So I'm moving this lamp.

It's too bright. They didn't even know there was a lamp there. But I'm telling those. If you're not, if you're not watching this, there's a lamp in the room. There was a lamp and it was just turned up a little bit in a way there. I just, I want everyone to be their best,

their best self. Okay. And I know, I know. That's like really self-helpish. You remember once you did the best of you, you best self. And I know, I know that has like really self helpish. You remember what's you to be the best you you can be? Yeah, it's like what Oprah, like live your best life. That's the Oprah mantra. This is like, this is a very Oprah moment.

But you know, like, internet's a very like, terrifyingly performative space. And we're all performative, I'm performative. I'm just trying to be performative space. We're all performative, I'm performative. I'm just trying to be performative as little as possible because like there's actually a part of the internet where I'm like my true self, which is like me writing. Like that's just like me. Like that's right.

There's no outside forces. And I know that that's a rare. I know some people just like, depending on where they work or what they do, like they don't have the ability to kind of make internet or write or do whatever without the whole internet economy, business world, kind of, you know, factoring into the way they do it. It's just like, I just, I mean, business world kind of, you know, factoring into the way they do it.

It's just like, I just, I want, sometimes I see someone write something. I'm like, I wish you didn't have to write it that way. Right. But you kind of, I know you have to, right? Because that's part of the job. Yeah, but that part of the job is, sometimes it's like when it's servicy or something,

you know, it makes sense, but it has become a bit too common. Don't you think? I mean, there is this, there is this. Okay, if Twitter didn't exist and Facebook didn't exist and Instagram didn't exist. Yeah. And let's say the internet exists, but like, would you be writing?

Yeah. I mean, you think you'd still be writing. Yeah. Look, not as many people know who I am. Right. Not as many people be writing, but, you know, I, but the writing part, I think, I mean, you think you'd still be right. Yeah, look, not as many people know who I am. Right. Not as many people be writing, but, you know, I, but the writing part is the important part. The writing part is the important part. Also, I think my, my kind of peer group

that started writing for like publications around 2010 2010 2011 is The last like pre Twitter journalism wave It really was like I had a Twitter account didn't really use it right Like Twitter was not I'd join Twitter in like 2009 or something Yeah, and I know I didn't use it for a long time Yeah, it didn't really use it for a long time. Yeah, and it definitely wasn't like the way individual makes a name for themselves

in the writing world. Right, most people were on Plurk. You don't even know Plurk, you know. I know what I, I, I, did you have a Plurk account? No. Plurk is like still popular in Asia. I bring a Plurk like all the time.

Cause it's like, it was like, you're still trying to make Plurk, I'm trying to make Plurk. Plurk was cool, cause it had like a timeline that went like this way. Mm-hmm. It went horizontally instead of vertically So you know how Twitter timeline is like it stacks on top But like the clerk timeline would be like the future is over here. God that was never gonna work the passes over here It makes too much sense for Tunisia. They also had like character. You could be like a clerk monster. I said

You remember turntable FM. Yeah, turn table FM was amazing We had a verge that was the bad you had a verge turn table room where all of the verge editors would go in and we would like DJ and there would like a lot of people would come in those like terrible little things we Bounce that yeah, yeah, yeah, and you could get like different outfits and like turn table FM was awesome I nobody used it obviously, but it was I remember every Friday at like 2 p.m. I'd get an email from Kevin Rus, he'd be like, yo, I'm tired of working. Let's just like, let's do turn table.

Like, let's see how big we can get today. This is totally what we did. It was so much fun. No, it was awesome. And then you'd like have your, we used to have, like you could put like five DJs on stage, the ones, but then like somebody would, somebody from like who wasn't part of the team would sneak up. And you'd have to like kick them off

of the turntable. Just get, get more, they play like they play like scream. Oh, like metal music. Yeah, they play, yeah, they play like a Lincoln park track or whatever. And you know, like, this was like a smooth or like, we're playing like amazing like dance music. And all of a sudden it's like fucking crawling in my skin. I also love just how, sorry Lincoln Park. How amazingly illegal turntable FM. Oh yeah, I would upload random shit. Like amazing.

Oh yeah, no, it was definitely like, it was like the Wild West. God, I totally forgot about turntable FM. I did until, like a month, I was having a kind of, like I had turned in a story on Friday, it was like two, and I just like had this flashback. I was like,

oh, I have the rest of my Friday afternoon myself. What should I do? Yeah. Oh my God, it's Turn Table FM still up, and it was like, no. What's gonna replace? What can replace Turn Table FM? How come there isn't something like that?

We should build it. We should do a startup. Like, it's just a Turn Table FM. That feels like, he'd be called something like, Friday, Friday's. Friday, TGI Friday's. Friday. TGI Friday's, it's like, you could have like 10, 99 on trays for two.

Unlimited potato skins. Unlimited skins. Unlimited skins. Of any type, potato or otherwise. Anyhow, so, all right, the reason I brought that up was before the turntable FM example was just establishing a voice and realizing you like to write before you had really

any ability to broadcast it. Right. I think is the way I'm wired, the way I'm wired. I completely understand if you're, and having a WordPress blog that people didn't, that there was no guarantee that anyone would ever see it because there was no promotion scheme. There was no mechanism of getting it out there

outside of myself, and I've always been very anti-buck people to do anything. Promotions gross. Like you have to admit, like I don't know if you, I grew up, this is kind of like an old man's story. I'm so excited for this. I mean I grew up in like the 90s and like in the 90s. In the 90s, like thing, it Lauren,

I talk about this all the time, but like selling out, this is kind of her thing, but I'm gonna steal it a little bit because we're married and that's part of the contract. So you can do that. It's beautiful. But like you know, but selling out wasn't like, selling out wasn't cool and like self promotion wasn't cool.

And like there was like a period where, you know what I mean? It was like people didn't, it was cool to be like the person who's like, I'm good, you know, sort of like, I'm not gonna talk about myself, I'm not gonna promote myself. I'm gonna like let people discover it on their own. I mean, like, if you think about like underground music of any type like, like, genre of music, like Indy Rock or whatever, the whole premise was like, people are not, it's not cool to like be self-promotional. It's cool to like let people discover it on

their own. And when they, when they would discover, they'd like be really into it. We're on the other side now. No, we're on the other side where everything is self-promotion, everything is like you said, performative. I mean, you didn't say everything's performative, but I'm saying that there is like a performance going on. Yeah. And it is like increasingly difficult to separate the performance part of it from like the thing, making the thing that's of value, right?

And the thing is, there are, you have to peel back so many layers before you can actually find what the thing that's being made is. You have to get by, pass the brands and the public, and all those things, it's like somewhere in there, there's like a sentence. That's what we're like, you see, you see like, you see a story,

like somebody tweeted something about this the other day, there was like a story about the app store or something, you know. And there were like 39 articles about this topic. It was like, Tim Cook said, they're going to let you delete Apple apps from your phone or something. That was the story. And there were like 39 stories around it that were the same story. And it's like, how many of those stories did you need to read to get that like one nugget of information that was like ultimately like relatively and consequentially now. You know, like I do feel like,

it's also like that kind of game of telephone where it's like what is, like when I see something on Twitter, when I see a link on Twitter, I'm like almost apprehensive about clicking it because I feel like it's all bullshit, you know, in a way, like it's all, like whatever that tweet is does not represent

what the thing is I'm actually gonna get to. And that's how it's clickbait. I just feel like it's like disingenuous. So how do you get to things? Well, I do click on, I do click on things. How does anybody get to things? So I read, I actually read, this is so nerdy though. Like I, my homepage is feedly.

And it's like a bunch of news sites and other sites that I like to look at. And like, so I look at like I scan like what's out there right now that's interesting. But I look at Twitter. I mean, I click on stuff from Twitter. Facebook less less like I don't use Facebook in that way. I'm trying to figure out how to use Facebook in a way where you can treat it as a news feed. Yeah.

But it doesn't really work for me. It's like it just feels really something feels this is the same way feel it. I'm not trying to like beat up BuzzFeed, but although like I had Shawnee on the show and we had the same conversation, you go to like the BuzzFeed homepage and I know a lot of people don't do that, but like you go to the BuzzFeed homepage and it's like 13, you know, celebrities

who were ugliest kids or whatever and then it's like campus rape. What are we gonna do? And it's like these things don't feel right together to me. Like, they just doesn't work. It's like philosophically. I feel the same thing on my Facebook feed where it's like Syrian refugees getting tear gasped,

and then it's like somebody's baby. So I just had a baby. And it's like, why are these together? I don't mind that. Because, well, I don't mind it on my Twitter world. No, the Twitter is different. You ultimately have, you are deciding who is on your feed.

No, that's the thing. Facebook, for me, is like much more people I know, like friends and family. And Twitter is much more like people that I want to follow, because they're funny Or they are smart or they're like good at sharing stuff. I like my the way I use Facebook Outside of just you know seeing that people got engaged The main news for Facebook is sometimes I do Something happens at Facebook where you know, there's just

something happens at Facebook where, you know, there's just, there are stories or things that I'm like, are exists outside of my internet bubble. Like what? Give me an example. Just like some, I don't know, like anything that's like on the Huffington Post or like, or like, or like, or like, or like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or like, I'm gonna post a lot of stuff. Or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like,

or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like,

or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like,

or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or just like, or of stuff. That's a real video I saw, but I didn't see it on Facebook. I saw it on the sidebar of Time.com. Yeah. Or the fact that, you know, my Facebook often, like people on my Facebook often like talk about stuff, like four or five days later. Right.

And I'm, that always also reminds me that, you know, the need to get everything immediately, like, wow, that's a, I guess a good thing. It's like not, it's not normal. It's not how the real world is. It's not how the real world is. No, that's really interesting. Actually, I want to take a quick break.

And then we're going to come right back. So I want to talk about the. Fandall. Fandall. Fandall. I want to talk quickly about a new very cool series that's airing on PBS. It's called Indian Summers. It's a new masterpiece series which provides a twist on standard period dramas.

It kind of shows a window into both British and Indian experiences during the height of British rule in India. It's a nine part series. It premieres on Sunday, September 27th, at 9-8-central, on Masterpiece, on PBS. It's set in India in 1932 during the twilight of British Raj, or Rul in India, which officially ended in 1947. And it features an international cast of Indian, British, and Pakistani actors, including Julie Walters, Necash Patel, and Henry Lloyd Hughes. Indian Summers is set in the similar region near the Himalayas, where the British would relocate during the summer to work and socialize. While the British and

Indian are living a life of privilege, the Indian people are beginning to rise up with calls for independence from British rule. It's got multiple simmering plot lines that touch on politics, class, romance, and the rise of a nation. Check it out starting September 27th, 9 p.m. Eastern 8 p.m. Central on Masterpiece on PBS. All right, I want to quickly talk about Fandool. Fandool, as you know, Magnus is a big fan, big user. He's been, he's been very successful apparently so far this season. I'm frankly a little worried that if he, if he keeps winning on Fandool, he's going to leave, he's going to leave the podcast. Thanks to all of his riches. Let me tell you a little bit about Fandule.

It's the trusted leader in one week, fantasy football with more winners and more pilots than any other site. They're paying out over $75 million a week this football season. Build it in teams easy. You just pick your players. You stay under the salary cap and sit back on Sunday and watch your team win. Entry fees start at just a dollar, so anyone can play. So as I said, Magnus is doing very well on Fandall.

He tells me he claims at least that and I frankly, I'm not sure what this means, but it's very important to Magnus. He says if the Buck and ears Doug Martin turns things around, he's leaving the podcast and will be buying an island. So I assume that means there's a lot of money flowing in the direction of my producer, which is frankly very upset in for me because it's quite good at this job.

Last year, Matt Nichols from Ohio turned a $25 deposit into over 25 grand plane fantasy of football on Fandall. You can join him in the over one million other users who've already won money. Go to fandall.com and click the microphone in the upper right hand corner and use the code tomorrow to sign up right now. There's a special offer for new users for every dollar you deposit.

Fandall will match it with up to $200 that gets earned as you play. That's a bonus of up to $200. The offer is only good for the first 50 people that use the code tomorrow today. Don't forget to use the code tomorrow. Fandle.com, where every day is a new season. That's F-A-N-D-U-E-L. .com. Sign up today. Okay, we're back. Remember Brown. We're talking about how the real world interacts with news and stories and content for lack of better term.

But you were saying that people on Facebook won't talk about things for four or five days or whatever, or will still be talking about a story that is four or five days old. But that's like real life, what I've found, like nobody who isn't working on the internet the way we work thinks about news the way we do. Yeah, I mean, I'm on, I have a group text and I have an email chain that are comprised of people who are not in the business of the internet, you know. Teachers, people that like, one person that, just like your non-refreshing Twitter normal,

like wonderful adult. Regular people who break good jobs. Yes. Who we just living. Yeah, like, wonderful adult. Regular people have great good jobs. Yes. Who we just living. Yeah, and there's no reason why someone who's a teacher would know the 10 o'clock AM internet development and the 11 o'clock, it's like.

Right, like Sunday night is a nightmare for people who work on the internet in, like, news. Yeah. But normal people don't feel that way. Yeah. They're just watching the walking dead and they wake up the next day. It's like, right, like Sunday night is a nightmare for people who work on the internet in like news. Yeah. But normal people don't feel that way. Yeah. They're just watching the walking dead and they wake up the next day and they're like, oh, this is interesting. This is an interesting story.

Yeah. And like, you know, normal is a, I'm using air quotes because that's just, there are air quotes. There are air quotes because, nothing is normal. But just purely if you don't work, if you're not in the business of constantly monitoring the chatter of the internet, there's no reason why you wouldn't, why you would find out about everything in real time. So I, in some of these email chains or group texts that I'm in, you know, someone will be like, did you see this? Like, y'all read this.

And it's like four or five days after I did. It's like the dress. And I remember at first, I was like at my like, obnoxious internal response is like, like seriously? Old. Like y'all just talking about that. And then like I had to remind myself that like I was the weird one. You're the freak.

Like I'm the freak. Yeah, they're normal. Like that, you know, had already seen it, gone through a whole backlash cycle. Like you know everything. A bit of fight. Yeah, you like you have had every possible exposure to that thing. And they're like, hey, I already forgot about it. It's like, like part of fights. Yeah, you have had every possible exposure to that thing. And they're like,

and the haters forgot about it. It's like, I'm Ed. Muhammad, does that his name? The kid who built the clock? I love I'm Ed. I'm Ed's, well, as it goes that's saying, that dude's amazing and the fucking people in his community are the worst.

Texas. You know what people, I wanna say something. People are, a lot of people are like, hey, it's Texas and it's like, yeah, I guess, but like, this is like a pretty extreme bout of stupidity for a large group of people. I get that it's Texas. I mean, I can't just blame Texas.

I'm from the South. I'm allowed to. Can we solely blame Texas for this to be? I'm allowed to make fun of the South because I'm from the South. It doesn't come from an elitist saying if someone from Massachusetts. I mean, there's smart people from Texas.

Absolutely. You know, they just don't live in this kid's neighborhood. I'm allowed to make fun of Texas, though. And so I'm like, come on, Texas. But like, you know, you're not being so Texasy. But like the night that that happened, I like how you do. It's very sassy, though. It's like, Texas playful.

Don't be so Texasy Texas. Come on now. But the night it happened, I had like, I was like way down the rabbit hole, like outrage on the internet. And like, I realized now that for most people, that's probably wasn't even a story until like the evening news the next day.

And by the time that rolled around, I was already like, people already like, he had already been invited to like the White House and all this crazy shit had happened. Which I like was like, oh yeah, every step of the way, go on med, get the fuck out of there. Yeah, but it's like, but normal people aren't like that. My mother will send me articles

from the New York Times all the time, and it's like, she'll definitely send me, it's like, do you hear about this kid about this clock? You know, in a week or something. She's pretty informed, she's pretty hip. But anyhow, so obviously we exist in a reality. I just like, I like, I like, distributing normal with a positive connotation.

Just going wrong with a, like a simple connotation. But it's actually better in some ways. I mean, this to me like gets to the core of like my- It's healthier. Yeah, my problem with like content on the internet is we are attempting to like inundate people all day every day with shareable viral hits. And it's not just about clickbait,

it's not just about the tax clickbait or whatever the fucking story is, but it's also about the stuff that's even good. It gets pushed over and over and over again, and not just one person, but 100 people are doing these stories, trying to create this echo effect. And it's to a human being like your ability to process information.

Like one of the things that was really interesting on the verge was like early on we were doing like a bunch of features like every week we do a bunch of like really big features. And we'd see like, oh, the first one did really well. But then how people didn't read these like other three or four that we did is like, what's going on? And oh, like our audience doesn't have the capacity to like read 5,000 word pieces every day all week long. That actually requires them to like sit down, take some time, think about it. And like so the less we did try to do like 5,000 word

features every week, the more people actually pay attention to the shit. But it's like that's humanity only has so much capacity to like ingest content and stories and like pay attention to them. So I feel like it's like punishment to the audience in a way. We're punishing people for wanting to be knowledgeable

and entertain. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But this conversation started, part of it was when we talked last on the last episode, we talked about the VMAs and you were saying, Oh, everything was a bit. And almost ended it all for me.

Almost, almost. Yeah, but we only got to, we only got to the part on the recording about how you felt like everything was a bit and it made you like get Twitter off your phone and you almost like quit the internet or whatever. Yeah. But like the conversation we had afterwards

is actually like, it goes deeper than that. I mean, at my impression is for you and I feel this mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I on bullshit. My response to watching the VMAs was like everything that's happening here being manufactured so that it can be, it can be blogged about tomorrow it's like, ooh, it's basically, it doesn't matter on the internet that much anymore if stuff is true or false. It's just like whatever is taking place, it can be written about. Like I remember a couple days ago seeing something and like the theme of the post was just like rumor

so and so was in some movie and it was like it was really vague and and remember who and what I'm trying to remember what it was but it was it was the blog post about someone who was rumored to be in a new movie. There was no factual evidence that this was even true. And if it ended up not being true, it wasn't even going to be embarrassing. No, there were no stakes. I could literally write a post. It was rumored.

The two of us are in the new Star Wars movie. Dude, you're not supposed to talk about that. It's, Gigi Abrams was like, I dropped, I dropped my book idea on the last one. That's true. Now everybody knows we're in the new Star Wars. Well, I mean, you work for Disney. I do. So that was an easy contract for you, no problem.

I mean, it's a little more difficult actually. And the reason I left Bloomberg was to take on a role in the Star Wars. Yeah, I'm just saying Anna Cup and more zeros on my current contract. And we're getting several more zeros. And for me, they're like, you're going to be the new Boba fat. And I was like, none, not Boba fat. I play his cousin. There's just no. Joey fat. The stakes are so, there's no, like Joey Fat. It's referred to be as Joey Fat. So now on, thank you.

I just feel like there's no, uh, like there's no, like there's no stakes. It has no shame. Right. And that's a, that's a really bad place, I think, for industry to be in, whereas just like, you can do anything. Right. Right.

And even if it's wrong, it's okay. No, I agree. Like, it's crazy. Like shame is important. Shame is like one of the most important things that you can constantly walk around with, like not wanting to be like ashamed of the way you're being. And so when it's like an industry full of

an industry where you can just do anything and then no repercussions like creatively, it's like, oh no, like that's like that's really bad. That's really, really, really bad. Well, it's like if you don't, it's also impossible to judge what's good and what isn't. If like people, if people based that are like, do whatever you want, say whatever you want, right, whatever you want. I mean, I do think that can bear some like

really amazing fruit where people are able to say things and do things they wouldn't have ever been able to do before. 100%. Like, but it also, I mean, how much do you of that do you think it's linked to like this desire for like just getting like maximum people to look at your stuff? Like I feel like a lot of that is built out of like, like, just go, go, go, like just get something, just like write something. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I will say this and this is one of the many things I will give, um, I will give Grantland so much credit for. It's like even when I was in the daily turn around internet cycle, where it was like this thing happened on Monday, we need something by Tuesday.

I was never tasked with doing it first. Right. You know, it's like if you... You said you never broke anything. Yeah, and it's like that five extra hours I had that went from being in that first wave to getting something out. Most likely, unless you were just like a very grant land only reader, you aren't hearing of this news first through me, but like I at least had the ability to Put

Some effort into the past add something to it. Yeah, and yeah, you know, like I for me and this is one of My good friends core Jefferson who is a similarly a gonna die on this Hill that I will gonna die on this hill that I will also die on. He's going to die on the hill. Does he know about this? He doesn't know. But he's also like, I mean,

I think he always, he's like sent to me for years. He's like writing still for me, even in like the depths of the internet world is still art. It's like still like my artistic expression. And so even if it's about, you know, that stool in the corner of the room, which is like a very, like no, there's respect, like a very basic stool. If I'm going to write about it, if I'm going to use words, it's like not going to, like,

it is going to be, I'm'm gonna try to make it good. And it has to matter. And I don't think, I think that is, that is, we were very far away from that. It's just like, the art is like the art of engagement, the art of, the art of, the art of, you know, words or business now. There's like a, it's like that's where we are.

And, you know, I don't, I sometimes I want to worry about the entire internet and like save the entire internet. I think that's more, you, you, you were more in that world. I wanted wanting to save the internet. I want to save the internet. For me, my, my, save the internet is, you to save the internet. For me, my save the internet is not trying to hold out as long as possible, if that makes any sense. Trying not to give in to the numerous things that would make it really easy to be a content producer on the internet, which is just like,

just do the formula. But Europe, your way of saving the internet or whatever it is you're doing, maybe saving yourself, to me is like, like when I think about what, like how do you stop this thing, like how do you stop this like monster that we've created? Like I think it's really the basic thing is you have to stop thinking about the things you make as a commodity, as just a commodity to be traded, and start thinking about what in my world, what for me and for what I can do is a creator of any type,

and I don't mean creators, I mean me personally, or you personally, what's the best that I can do, what's the best thing I can do, you know, I mean, me personally or you personally, like, what's the best that I can do? Like, what's the best thing I can do? And what's the audience of that actually would appeal to? Like, do I think it's 50 million people or 100 million people, or do I think it's 5 million people or 10 million? Or maybe it's not even that many. Maybe it's 5,000, but like, to be realistic about like, I don't want to make a business, like, I don't want to be part of any business, frankly, that is like, let me get everybody to look at this right now

because I think that when you do that, you trade the quality and the depth and like the patience of like really good work for something that is not valuable to like the people that I wanna talk to. It's not like, it frankly not valuable to anybody, but like, it's okay to like read anybody, but it's okay to read something if you're bored at work on the board at work network

or any other network that's like a funny, listicle, like that's totally great, but I don't think I don't like my contribution to society, and I'm guessing you don't think your contribution to society through like what you do is like funny, is gonna be like a funny, like, listicle, probably like. I mean, I mean, I don't think it's that clear cut.

I think I think it's I think it's purely a. I don't think I'd say it. I I do. When I think about like my career, it's like I obviously want. More and more people to just like read the things that I have to write. I like, I don't think eyes are bad if I continue to behave in the same way. Like, kind of stand by the scene. If you do what you do and build an audience, there's nothing wrong.

That's the right thing that's supposed to happen. But there's like, I can't remember we talked about this in the last potter. We were just sitting around. It's like, it's kind of a short game or long game type of arrangement. It's like, are you, do you cash out now and get all the eyes now, or do you kind of chip away over time and you know convince more and more people that this like this lane that you've taken is a worthwhile lane to follow. Yeah. The long game is the harder game because it's slower, it's slower and it's less profitable. Yeah.

But like the reality is like that's the thing is like if you can be like the viral sensation or whatever that's going to get you more money faster and more audience faster than being like, hey, I wrote this really thoughtful thing and it's hard to read and it's going to take a while, but it'll be worth it at the end and like not as many people are going to sign up for that. I mean, so that's what my thing is, I'm not saying like, you're not going to do like a really great list that'll be very funny. Like that may be something you do tomorrow. Yeah. Because you want to. I don't think you're trading quality for doing that. I think it might be like another facet

of your writing personality. I'm just saying that your career, my guess, is that you don't want your career to be based on just having to do that to serve a big audience. No, I mean, that's how I feel. I don't wanna make anything where the goal is just get, just grow. I wanna make things where people give a shit.

And I don't care if it's, I'd like you to be more than five people. But I don't care if it's like five really dedicated, smart people. I'd like to make a living, I guess. I'd like to get paid something. But you know, they think that's like, I think that's the point that we're at now where everybody's, I think there's a question you gotta ask. It's like how much can you,

how much you have to sacrifice to be really popular and big. This goes back to my 90s analogy. Yeah. You know? It's like when, it's like, you know, did Nirvana make a mistake, signing to DGC? This is, this is shit that only people for the 90s do. Great.

Should they have stayed on sub pop? I don't even know if this is right. I don't even know what I'm saying is accurate. I don't remember. The point is, it's not selling out or not selling out, but I do think it's about being true to what you can be great at versus being true to the almighty dollar. Yeah. true to the almighty dollar. Yeah, I mean, and I get, you know, I, I mean, this might be just a complete indictment of my lack of business acumen, which is, which I am, I am a very, I am very actively bad

at business. You're not a great business man. I am, I am not a great business man. I am like a terrible,, self-negotiator. Really? Oh my God. I'm really bad. It takes, I don't, I feel like most people are bad.

I feel bad at it. I always feel like I'm like, oh, I fucked that up. Yeah, but that's in some ways like, for me, that's been some of my saving grace. And it's partially just this lack of thinking for me that's been some of my saving grace. And it's partially just this lack of thinking about what I do as a cog in business. And the other side is I've always had a really,

I can't remember I said this last time, I've always had a really hard time doing, seeing myself do something that I've spent a consider amount of time by myself or with my friends like once making fun of. No, you said this to me when we were having a drink afterwards. You did not say this on the podcast. This is one of the things that I thought we should talk about. It's like I was like, ah, like, you know, two years ago, me and my friends were like sitting around looking this being like,

yo, that's like super corny to, you know, like take an Instagram photo of your, of your new Nike's and being like, yo, just do it as the cap shed. Sounds good to me, I don't know. Like, like, if I was, if, if, if, do you think that that's funny? I think it sounds pretty good. Yeah, I don't know. Like, if I was, if, if, do you think that's funny? I think it sounds pretty good. Yeah, I think that's pretty corny.

You know, I mean, just because it's like, oh no, like, those are words that like someone told you to write. Right. And like I, as a writer, I'm just like not in the business of, of being told what to write. Because it's like having standards. of being told what to write. Because my name, my whole professional existence is my byline and then all the words that are below that byline being attributed to the way I think.

And so to begin to get into a world where those words aren't as authentic, it's just a hard thing for me to see myself doing. And again, I'll keep saying this, And I'll keep saying this. I don't have a problem with individuals doing it. It's just like, it's just not my thing. You don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it. And if the only thing I don't like is when someone feels like that's the only way to succeed in this business,

is to do it. That's the thing that kills me because it's like, oh, you don't have to be beholden just because we are in an industry of people being beholden. Well, but we also have to change the industry. I mean, we have to change the direction it's headed in. I mean, that's what I think. I think it's like, you look at the direction everything's headed in. It's like, it is hard to say for a lot of writers, especially like young writers to say no to the shit

that they're being asked to do, because that's the business that exists now, you know? I do think like Grantland is a great example of a place where something relatively pure has like thrived, like where there doesn't, I read those stories and I'm not like, these guys must've been for, you know, it's like these guys must've been forcing doing this boogie night's oral history.

It's like, yeah, I don't think that probably happened, you know. I think that like a lot of those ideas spring from the place where like good editorials should spring from. And like you look at, historically you look at like the New Yorker or Vanity Fair and of these like publications that have been around forever and they still do like very much do the same thing. And it's actually like, to me, it's kind of like, there should be more of that that's like new.

Like Grantland's like one of the things that's new that does that. It's like why aren't there more publications where you can go do it every day and say, like this feels good, everything I'm reading here feels like right and real. And like the people who work there aren't being pushed to do bullshit essentially. Like aren't being pushed to do bullshit, essentially.

Like aren't being pushed to do whatever the thing is that would make you cringe. And by the way, I think the thing that you, the part where you're like cringing and not don't want to do it, I'm maybe, I don't know, you were kind of cringing when you said it, but the stuff that would be embarrassing or corny, that's just like kind of having personal standards, right? I mean, I, I mean, I, in some ways, yes, in other ways, it's purely a, like, if the script was flipped and someone was looking at my stuff, and their response was like, like, oh man, like, why are they doing that? Yeah.

Like, that would be, that would, that would freak me out. So, maybe like when, maybe Thomas Pension reached your stuff, he might be like, oh yeah, this is fucking corny. That's what he always took. I would never write about this. He always tells me that. I would never do a story about Nicki Minaj's

Bar Mitzvah photo. I think there's a very interesting thing about that piece. I know we talked about that. That's a very interesting piece for people to hold up to me as a piece because that's just a piece that very much blew up. Yeah. Because that was me at peak. Troll.

Yeah. That was me at like, I was like, yes, I understand all the all the interesting pure like jumping into the mind of a teen type things. And like, I get why people like that piece. Just like, it's also like, look at all this, this will probably be something that's written about really whateverly, by a thousand places tomorrow.

You mean like us or something? Just anything, it's like Nicki Minaj. Like Nicki Minaj. It's celebrity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but that's what's interesting is that to me is like, even that which could look light to people, like just like, oh, it's a jockey thing

or it's like a viral thing or whatever. Actually, I mean, but then you go and write about Ferguson and that's like totally the opposite vibe on every level, like where it's not, both of those things stand on their own as like smart, weird, different perspectives on something. And like the Nikki photo, I mean, I think it's like funny, but at the end of the day, like actually the analysis

is sort of this weird, the undercurrent of your analysis of that photo. But it's not really about like this weird kind of like, this like adolescent. But yeah, it's like existence. It's anti the formula of how you're supposed to just like take a celebrity. And that's what made it good. That's what makes it good. That's what makes things good is like when you're not, when they aren't the thousandth version

of the Nicki Minaj attends, you know, bar mitzvah for somebody like, is that everybody else is going to write about it? I just love the internet. I just wanted to be, I just wanted to be better. The internet can be, it's the thing about it and we have to go, because our time's up, unfortunately. The thing is the internet can be so much better and there's like, but to me, like, there are the moments, you see those moments all the time,

you just don't see enough of them, I feel like, where you're like, oh my God, this is fucking amazing. Like, you can make amazing things, like there are crazy brains that can do insane things and like tell crazy stories and like do them in a way that nobody else has done them. It's just like, it's so clogged up with all the other stuff that it's hard to see it.

Yeah, I'm having to like constantly monitor myself because I think I can feel myself becoming like a Twitter curmudgeon who's just like giggiggiggiggiggiggiggiggigg. And like, it's bitter, like bitter. Yeah, and it's like, I don't wanna get bitter because I love the space so much, but I think I, the bitterness is actually a,

it's like a pinching self sign that I do have like a pulse still, but. You're not a vampire. You're not a viral vampire. That's a good, it's a good band name. Virovampires. Virovampires. Maybe I could do what you play, do you play anything? Empire. That's a good. It's a good band name. Viral vampires. Viral vampires. Maybe I could do what do you play? Do you play anything?

Yeah. Spoons. Really? Yeah. I'm a drummer. So we could have like a spoon. Drums. People haven't done that yet. All right, we get wrap up. Ram, Ram, thank you for coming and doing it. I'm glad we did this. I'm glad we did it too. Do we get more? Do we get to more of what you want to talk about this time? Yeah, I'm not going to, and I'm not going to, we can do a third one. I'm not going to text you. You just be the guy. Do we get more, do we get to more of what you want to talk about this time? Yeah, I'm not gonna, and I'm not gonna,

We can do a third one. I'm not gonna text you. You just be the guy, you just be like, this is making my life a lot easier. You just be the other guy on the podcast. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna text you on Sunday and be like, Hey, delete, please don't. Delete both of them.

We gotta, we gotta do, we gotta do, we gotta go back. You're like, oh, you don't know because, I was gonna say about loss, but you don't even know the plot point I'm about to talk about. No. Because you haven't seen it. I know, I stopped watching. Yeah, I know you did, I know. All right about loss, but you don't even know the plot point I'm about to talk about. No. Because you haven't seen it. I know, I stopped watching. Yeah, I know you did, I know.

All right, anyhow, thank you for coming. And that's the podcast for this week. Great. We'll be back with more tomorrow, next week. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best, despite the torrent of viral videos that are being delivered to their Twitter feed. Right now. viral videos that are being delivered to their Twitter feed. you