Tomorrow - Episode 26: Naomi Zeichner and the Death of Tracks Blogging

Episode Date: October 5, 2015

This week's guest is Naomi Zeichner, editor-in-chief of one of the most important modern music publications: The Fader. Celebrating the impending 100th issue of her publication, Naomi sits down with Josh to discuss the changing gender dynamics in media, the evolution of music journalism, the importance of vibes management, and much more. In order to follow all the twists and turns of the discussion, consult the episode's totally off the wall playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/user/1262994479/playlist/6DPFniCZ1mci4iRZkr2omL Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

[♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hey, and welcome to Tomorrow, I'm your host Josh Wittepolky. Today in the podcast, we discuss slippers, dabbing, and soldier boys internet scam. But first, a word from our sponsor. This episode of Tomorrow is brought to you by Wealthfront. Wealthfront is a low-cost automated investment service that makes it easy to invest your money the right way. It works 24-7 to manage your portfolio, keeping it diversified, customized to your risk profile, and optimizing its trading behavior to keep your tax bill low, all without ever charging commissions. Whether you've got millions or you're just starting out, Wealthfront is the most sophisticated way

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Actually, we haven't had that many conversations, so I guess we'll find out. My guest is the editor-in-chief of the fader, Naomi Zeichner. Did I say that right? Yes. I've been very nervous about mispronounce your name, which is not hard to pronounce. It's not so bad. Anyhow, thank you for coming here and being in the studio. Thank you for having me.

I'm excited to be here. This beautiful tapestry and restoration hardware table underneath. So, if you are interested in music, I'm just, this is a little intro for people. If you don't know Naomi, you certainly probably know her work. If you're interested in music and you are on the internet, you have definitely read something on the Fader. It's one of the few, I mean, there are a couple of publications on the internet that cover music that are interesting.

And the fader is in a very small group. It's probably like the fader, pitchfork, and dot, dot, I don't really know who else, like not rolling stone. Unless you wanna read a review of like the new mom for the Suns record. It's a cool thing. A day's short days. Days and confuses is the full name of that.

Like publication. I think days is the cover line that they use now. Isn't it easier? I, everybody does music stuff now. Yeah, but most people suck at it. I know a lot of people who do music stuff and just don't know what they're talking about. I know who's done a lot of good music stuff and it's run as grandland actually. I'd say.

Okay, grandland is excellent. Whatever they do. I think. Anyhow, so, there's a bunch of stuff I want to talk about. Obviously, music is one of the things I want to talk about with you. Oh, I should say, let me preface this by saying I have a cold. So if I sound like shit, you don't, I mean, no, me doesn't care, but I'm telling the listener, if I sound like shit, you know, tough.

This is a free podcast, okay? You get what you pay for, which is a guy sounds like crap. Anyhow, so there's a couple of things I want to talk to you about. A bunch of things. One is, you're one of the few, maybe like the only, and I'm probably like, missed there's some holes in my knowledge here, like I just am not thinking of somebody, but you're one of the few female editors

in chief or editor in chiefs, I'm not really sure which one that is, that isn't, you're not running like a female focused publication, like the faders, not like for ladies or whatever. Does that change, I mean, does it make it harder? Does it make it easier? Is there any impact of that whatsoever?

Yeah. It's a rare thing in our industry. Which is so wild to me. I mean, it's funny when you, the first thing I think when you say this is just like I think of all the women who are actually super powerful in music media. Like, you know, I think of Jessica Hopper who I think actually has the

title of editor in chief of the pitchfork review which is sort of so she's not not the boss at pitchfork but she runs their print stuff right which is like a quarter which is a quarterly yes I think yes and and like Lindsay little ads is the music critic at New York magazine Lauren Nostro is a woman that I love who runs music news at complex which sort of sound like it's not an editor in chief job but she's like definitely a boss over there. And that's probably like some of their most red stuff. I would imagine. Absolutely.

And she's so, so yeah, so there are all these women Karen Gans is doing music editing, I think, or Times now, which is awesome. So there's always women who are really powerful in music, and I think in some ways like that's that's a change in maybe the last couple years to some extent, but women have always been really active in music journalism. And I think to some extent, the idea that they like haven't been or whatever is like a myth. But yeah, I don't.

It's a weird thing to bring up, but I think it's interesting because in terms of like the boss, you're like one and a million. Yeah, well, I think it's funny, right? Like at Buzzfeed, there's actually, I think part of the reason that going to Buzzfeed, I worked at Buzzfeed for some time, was exciting to me was because

there's a lot of female leaders there. Like Shawnee Hilton, like Shawnee, like Dory who is sort of their executive editor of culture, who had previously worked in music and was like actually a big sort of example for me or I feel like I learned a lot from her and and that was like compelling to me I was like oh this is a place that I can become a leader and that you know um

And that it's like totally accepted for women to be leaders, right? I don't think there's anything notable like oh wow a woman No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, in the industry of media at large or writ large rather, there aren't a lot of female editor-in-chiefs. And like that's a bad thing, ultimately. I think, and like I will say that like having watched the progression of the fader from when you started to now, like, you know, I'm like, it's really good. Like it really is, you know what I mean?

It's like, it's been a very positive progression, you know, and so I think, I mean, this has nothing to do with like, whether you're a woman or not. But I just think, like, I think some diversity in that world is probably a good thing. And I say this as like, the guy who's the editor-in-chief who's like, a guy, you know? Like, it is, but it is like annoying after a while to meet

like a bunch of white guys who are the editor-in-chief of things. That was the worst. I think, like, well, so Fader's probably like most notable editor-in-chief in its history was a woman, Alex Wagner, who was sort of like really cleaned up the place during her time and then went on to all these incredible things. She worked for George Clooney with like what she did immediately after fader, which is still really cool to be. I'm like waiting on that call. And then she was at MSNBC or is at MSNBC. But I think it's funny, I will not name this person,

but I have a lot of friends in media. And I remember very keenly somebody who was in a leadership position who was hiring a good deputy editor and was like, I just need a woman. You know, like, I need that woman who's gonna get everything done and be on the ball. And- And they really acknowledged that that was like-

They said I just need a woman. Well, no, they didn't, I don't know those were the words, but they were kind of like, yeah, like who is this, who is this who is you know who's this killer who's gonna be this killer for me And I think a lot of people acknowledge it like women have you know Whatever that there's a lot of talented women in our industry who are really capable of just like taking a lot of shit and being in that Leadership type role and like cleaning everything up and being good coaches and all of these things that we need in leadership on the internet and But often right. It's like that deputy role. Right, no, no, I know and it is actually I mean I have to say when I think about like the people that I've hired

recently and like as I think about who's really killer like who's killer like a lot of the names that first come to mind are not dudes. Not that there are men doing great jobs but it is interesting I think that I hope that that is like a trend, a positive trend. I think it's a positive trend that like this industry, the media industry is becoming much more diverse, at least amongst the sexes. Now we've got to work on like everything else.

I think maybe it's relevant to bring up my favorite, like to me, the best music slash sort of like pop culture news outlet that exists on the internet right now is the Shade Room, which is predominantly an Instagram account. If you don't follow it, you have to follow it. This is all news to me. Jenna Wortham wrote a really nice sort of very short primer on it in the New York Times magazine earlier this year, but it's just an Instagram account with sort of imagery from

pop culture with long captions. So if you follow it, it's really just like right there in your hand, everything you need to know. And I believe she's still anonymous. I know for a long time she was anonymous, follow it, it's really just like right there in your hand, everything you need to know. And I believe she's still anonymous. I know for a long time she was anonymous, but the woman who's sort of the chief of that and the engine behind it is a woman. The woman is a woman.

Are you doxing? And you got that to dox with her for a- No, I don't know her. I don't know her. You guys who it is though? I don't. I know Jenna met with her. So I know that she's a woman who, you know,

at sometimes lives in Brooklyn. I believe she's Nigerian. I'm not sure. She is. I don't know what it means or something, but I just think that there's a very bright future on the sort of the next wave of the internet for creative women. I think the long caption thing on Instagram is interesting. Like, this is definitely a thing.

Questlove does this a lot. Like, I don't know if you follow him, but he'll post something like a picture of a record or whatever, and then just like a super long caption about his experience with that record or whatever, and it's fascinating, but it's a very specific kind of thing. So I haven't, what is it, the shade room? Yeah. I've not, I don't follow the account,

and I will, obviously, after this. It's self-culted. But it's really interesting that's become a form of journalism or communication that is totally not what I don't think Instagram intended. They just don't like, there's no character limit. So like people just write really long things. It's interesting, it's weird.

Yeah, it's kind of like the better version of Facebook native articles. Right, right. Right. Because you want it, you want to look at it. It is Facebook news. Yeah. But you like, it's very specific because you follow who you follow I don't know. It's like pushed in your feed Okay, so

Let's talk about so you're this is you're doing the hundredth issue. Yes, this is happening right now You've been doing articles online that are kind of trickling out from the issue Rihanna is on the cover. Yes, I was in the on the drive here. I was talking to Laura my wife She was like, yeah, I think Naomi hangs out with Rihanna all the time. Like they just hang out. I would hang out with her during the shoot. No, you know, like what, what good is, is this title? If I don't send myself to Rihanna, I think I'll ask these questions in 20 years. I don't know why I don't know why you want to pair. I sent our photo director and our style editor large who is the vibes manager of the photo shoot

I said natural title vibes manager. It's I you know, it's something that comes up at fader a lot That's interesting because I it's a real it's a real like force. No, that's like I that's crazy that you say that because I Had for a really long time was trying to fill a role at the verge which was vibe editor, which is just somebody who trying to fill a role at the verge, which was Vibed Editor, which is just somebody who could like, keeps the crew. Get like the vibe right, every day. I think a fader to seven extent, like that's a prerequisite job.

Like you get hired on Vibed first. If your vibe is good. Which is something that I think, that I've worked to some extent against, to just be like, this is, if this is a sorority, it is also a workplace. Right. To try to find some balance in those things.

You have to make a magazine in the website. Yeah, and it, right. But I think a huge part of what makes somebody a great fader employee is in vibe. Right. But no, so I did not meet Rihanna in this process. I spoke many times on the phone to her creative team, who I was actually very impressed with.

Right. The standout for me from the pictures that I've seen thus far is that she's wearing like hotel slippers. So those are slides that she designed for Puma. They look like they look like really cozy furry maybe furry in some way. Yeah, I think I think, you know, I'm not any fashion buff, but I believe there were like furry, saline shoot like slippers of some kind that were like a whole thing in the last couple of years. I feel like this is like, I know nothing about this. I really know nothing.

So I'm speaking totally out of term. But I think this is like a riff, a pink like pool, pool slide riff on the saline, which is genius, I think, you know, if I'm like tracing the lady and trying to. They look comfortable, that's what I know. She looks really good. Yeah, well, I mean, she's Rihanna.

I'm obsessed with the hair. I think that she's been wearing most of the summer this sort of like curly, obber and golden hair. And I believe that they just like straighten the curls for the shoe because it's sort of this like exploded Barbie hair. I feel, it's like gorgeous. And I'm not trying to check you remember that hair.

It feels really like like next level hair styling. I feel like there's something like really upsetting about the fact that I can very, very clearly remember the shoes she's wearing. But not her hair. I feel like there's like weird fetter stuff happening right now, which makes me very sad. No, I think your eye goes to the shoes for sure

because like you see the back of her heel, which is like not something, I think that you're accustomed to seeing on it. A naked heel is not something we always see on Mac. The naked heel is very provocative. I mean, it's really like that, it's like when the bikini was introduced. Yeah.

The naked heel is very radical. Fader covers have often been these sort of like tight, iconic close-ups, maybe on a pop color, maybe out in the world, and I think that this shot for us is sort of a new photographic direction that I'm really excited about. The full body. Yeah.

And kind of just, you see the seams of the shoot. Right. And right, Rihanna has like the shutter release in her hand, which is like a whole, another layer of something going on. Right. So, yeah. How much of that is orchestrated and how much of it just happens? So I don't want to ruin the mystery.

No, totally. It was sort of like a PS on our creative brief to them was like, oh, and the whole concept is that we're going to strip it down and we're going to show the themes of what's happening and how the photos are getting made. And this is a studio shoot, but it's not a normal studio shoot. And then there was sort of like this, we just tossed in an image and was like, and what if one of them is a self-portrait,

and they were like, well, we love that. Of course they love that. And so, but I think they shot for a while and I think that those shots sort of among the whole shoot, I love the shots that the photographer sort of set up and took. I think that there's some really beautiful stuff, but it was sort of clear that Rihanna came to life. And I think that that's that's exciting. You know, it's not not exciting. It's like, it looks like it's a legitimate engagement in the photo.

Yeah. It's not like, oh yeah, I'm here for the shoot. And now I've got to go. Yeah. Kind of thing. But talking about this, I'm definitely like, we will not be doing self-portraits for every issue of the video. I think that's a good policy. Yeah. So, a hundred issues. Now, the fader is like, this is something we talked about a little bit

before we started rolling, but I want to talk about the fader is focused on music. It's a music magazine and a music online publication. But one of the things that I've noticed since, and I feel like distinctly noticed since you took over, as editor, is there seems to be like an expanding range of what is considered like fader content or fader material. And increasingly it feels a lot more like it's branching out into culture beyond music, you know, like sort of entertainment culture, but then culture to sort of general like internet culture and and sort of youth culture. And even a little bit newsy sometimes, and I'm curious like, is there, was there

a plan to do that? Is that something that's in your mind every day when you go in and try to figure out like what you guys are doing? And how do you do that? Because I think a lot of this is like a lot of run-up to you answering this question, but I think a lot of people are trying to do that now where they're like, oh, we're this, we're about this, but we also are in this, we have this orbit, the satellites of types of things that we do around us, but like it feels often when people do it, they're just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, or just like firing, hoping to hit something. And what you guys have been doing doesn't feel like that at all.

So what's the process, what's the method by which that is happening? And is it happening specifically? Yeah, well, that's so good to hear, first of all, that you've noticed that. I think ultimately maybe, I think the short answer is yes. Very much I want Fader to be sort of a lifestyle

publication first, and to sort of engage just culture and the culture that music is a part of and the culture that music listeners love and what it means to be a music fan sort of holistically. But I think in terms of strategy or approach, it's maybe it gets a lot fuzzier. I think ultimately in coming back the first sort of thing that I really wanted to put my stamp on right is just how we handle our cover stories, which is sort of like the ultimate crown jewel in core of the brand. And something that I really wanted to make sure

that we were deepening was that these weren't just like we got into your bedroom profiles, which is like kind of something that the fader did very well historically, but that we are also really contextualizing these music stories and doing better reporting sort of around the artist, right? And I think out of that approach branches everything else, right? So I felt it was really important to hire somebody who was really in charge of news and not somebody who was just going to be like the aggregator in chief, but somebody who knew how to report and was excited to report and could kind of

be a mentor for other writers on the team in terms of just what reporting is and basic reaching out for comment stuff. Which I think right is not like a skill you learn when your big goal is to be a track blogger. But ultimately, the real long game of all of this is that tracks blogging is just not the way to win the internet anymore. And maybe it never was, but it certainly is no longer the bread and butter of music blogging. But a few years ago, Fader definitely was like, yeah, Fader was the tracks blogger of all time. That's kind of a dead thing, I feel.

It's super dead. I feel like with the rise of Spotify and social, things like that have replaced the need for a blog to be like, listen to this right now. I mean, I just don't, even calling Fator a blog, I think is this in January to the forum? Absolutely. I mean, I think at some point there really was the blog launched.

Like, it was like Fator was like, we're a magazine and now we're launching a blog and that blog happens But when it was like going from a magazine to the internet You know, I mean yeah, right like not I mean it was like the fader was a magazine Right and they have a website for a while there was like yeah, I mean There's like that sort of shell website that has a like splash page But yeah, and then it was like okay now that we have a blog because that's like what was on the internet in terms of like journalism and if you were like a modern publication, but you've definitely evolved beyond that to like a much more sort of hybrid unified thing.

Yeah, and I think that's like that ball has been rolling for a really long time. I think Fator did really good columns and kind of had columnists from different vantage points around the world or who were like genre specialists. That was sort of like the beginning and then there was a lot of like sort of more think PC writing and what a weird writing right as always been like to the theater. But yeah, it's good. Weird is good. I mean, so so if tracks blogging is dead and I think especially right now the fact that like soundcloud is like maybe going to disappear is like one of the final nails in that coffin. Is it? Well, not disappear, but I just think that it's like, it labels don't want to,

there are just to release stuff on SoundCloud. Like I think now that there are so many more, it's just like, it feels like a very contested space. And I think SoundCloud has been the only kind of like, truly, aside from YouTube, the sort of like stable embed of our industry. You know, I, like you may not remember Z-Share or HulkShare or AudioMac or whatever,

all these things, the kind of- I don't remember any of those. So if you're a music blogger, you might- But like I used like- I remember lime wire was like the thing I used to download like crazy obscure like crowd rock records that you can get anywhere. So- So very different but- Well no like post-lime wire there is like this weird liminal space of like all these like

media fire-esque, imbedible sort of downloadable streamable things. That sounds kind of familiar. Music vlogs have survived on and it's like kind of like if everything's gonna go straight to a streaming platform if you go straight to an Apple Music exclusive it's like sort of why, what is that second single rollout on a music plot? Anyway. So is like Apple Music in Spotify

are they a good thing or a bad thing for what you're trying to do? Well, I think they're, I mean I think think they're good thing for music fans, right? So I think that it just, and I think that's a very diplomatic answer. No, but I think that it means that our responsibility is different. I don't think it's a bad thing for music bloggers to have to do something else besides say, this is a song from an album that's coming out next week. I think it does take the rug out from under the typical album rollout. I think that's okay.

I think it also puts a lot more weight on music videos and music videos needing to be interesting and worth writing about and worth making gifts of and things like that. That's a service that—that's something fans can do and that blogs can do well if they want to also. But yeah, I think we are seeing sort of these like event album drops be really fruitful for music writers, whether they're sort of like the Beyonce surprise or the Kendrick surprise, which is, or something like Drake and Futures album,

which was kind of like this big radio Apple music exclusive. Yeah. But all of that aside, track's blogging is complicated, but I think that we can just do better, right? It's just like, what stories do we really want to tell? And we have talented people in the room, and how can we really do what we do really well in our features all the time? It's funny, because as you brought up like the, the, the tracks blogging aspect of the

fader, I was like, Oh oh yeah, that used to be something that I remember going to the fader for, and yet now I think very much like I think of the fader as like features and some news and some culture stuff around the world of music. And so it feels like it's a definite shift away from the sort of almost servicy, I mean, tracks blogging is like a very servicy form

of journalism for like music fans, right? Yeah. So that's intentional. Yes. But is it market forces that are changing it for you? Is it like, oh shit, the market has changed. It's harder to do Tracks blogging, therefore we need to move into this other thing more fully, or is it this is just a logical progression of what the fader is?

I think it's great just wanting to do work that's like the best work we can do. And I think, and kind of coming in and doing stuff you're proud of, not feeling like there's any, faders never had any traffic quotas or post quotas. And I think that's maybe been like a lot of trust and a lot of space for people. And maybe I know that, I mean, I blogged for years, right?

So I know what my best work was and what it looked and felt like. And I'm just kind of trying to create space like that for our writers and to kind of push them into something that might be a little harder to create. And we'll certainly return more on their energy. Okay, I want to take a quick break. I'll take a quick break and then we'll be back

with more I have a bunch of questions for you. Cool. Have you heard of School House? Really, you haven't heard of School House? You pathetic idiot. School House is a New York-based and globally inspired brand design agency. When subjective experiences challenge you as an individual, dare you to take creative risks and ask individuals to define the collective versus the collective, defining the individual, life and experience serve as your schoolhouse.

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FIN, RA, and SIPC. This is not a solicitation to buy or sell securities. Invested in securities involves risk, and there is the possibility of losing money. Past performance is no guarantee a future results. Please visit Wealthfront.com to read our full disclosure. We're back with Naomi Zackner. I think I said it right for a second time, so I'm really excited about that. So I want to talk about music.

So I have, I'm sure people who listen to this are sick of me talking about music. And I always use that voice when I talk about it. But like, tell me about your relationship with music. Like, at what point did you, I mean, you started working for the fader in what year? 2010. 2010. So like, at what point were you,

in what, like, were you obsessive about music? What was the drove you to go like, oh, I want to write about, I remember, because I remember when I started at N Gadget, I was like, I'm a huge nerd and I'm really into technology, and I should go right about it at this place. Like, how did you end up at the fader?

Was it an obsession of music? Was it something else? It's a really good question. And I mean, something that I say now is like, I'm not even a music person. Like I say this all the time, and I kind of like, I feel bad. Or I can't be true.

No, it's not true, but I know a neph about music fans and sort of like the real heads to know that I shouldn't pretend to call myself a real head or something or that I can't. You run the fader. You run the fader. Yeah, absolutely. I know, and I claim a lot of knowledge

and a lot of expertise in our field now, but I think I don't feel any like value in stepping on those toes. I don't know, long story short. I definitely grew up in Athens, Georgia, which is a big music town. I'm from Georgia. Yeah.

Interesting. Can't you tell? Not at all. But there's a lot of Georgia people. I just had Rembert Brown on. Yes, and me and Emerald are the same year. We didn't, so he's from Atlanta and I'm from Athens, but I feel like what do you have this?

Whatever, you both are from Georgia. Can I say Atlanta or Georgia you said Georgia? Yeah, right. No, but I think it's like Georgia map you can is from Georgia Yeah, I think a lot of Georgia people end up in New York. They like don't they don't go to LA as much as they go to New York Yeah, but so yeah, I grew up in Athens Georgia, which is the college town there. That's where are you? I'm his friends where are you? I'm his friends. Sorry. Does that a no? I already says No, but I mean, I think that's kind of the story I'm telling, which is just that- Is that also where the B-52s are from? Yes, well, they're from, they're not from Athens, but it's kind of where they came up. Right.

My best friend in high school, her mom was in this band, Pylon. I don't know if you know the band, really sick band. Yeah, yeah. So it whatever, it was in her hometown. Her mom was in that band. Mm-hmm, shut up to Vanessa Hayes. But it's funny, actually, sidebar that most of the music people in Athens now are now food people.

Athens has this like food rendison. Interesting. I mean, I think that's kind of cool. But so I grew up like when I was a kid going to a lot of shows, it was kind of like the thing to do and the townies were all music people. And I was like, I guess the scene that I was really, when I interviewed for an internship at the Fader, I think the editor-in-chief of the time, Matthew Schnapper,

like, got in his head that I was a hardcore kid and that we had this in common. Where are you? No, but I think I had told him that I was like, that I'd gone to a lot of punk shows, but they were like folk punk shows, which is like really different. Like who were you going to say?

I don't, there were sort of like this network of bands from like Gainesville, Athens and like many examples. Do you name any of them? Well, there's like the band this bike is a pipe bomb. There was a really amazing band from Athens, Georgia called Carrie Nations. If that's on spot, if this bike is a pipe bomb, is a pipe bomb I've never heard of. It's like on, I wouldn't, I don't want to like be like, it's terrible music, but it's definitely not.

What was that? What was that band? This band called Carrie Nations from Athens is incredible. There's a girl named Matt, like she performed as Mattaline. I was like, really into in high school. Okay. But it was like, it was about being a part of a scene, right? So like, that was my identity as a music fan at the time. And then I think, when I, but I was also a huge rap fan

growing up, right? Like, something me and Rembert having common is that we were just like raised by outcast. Like you say rap not hip hop. Yeah, I think hip hop is like, it upsets me. It's actually funny. I feel like I, you know, the word rapper can be such an ugly word. And so people try to write MC or like capital M capital C. I, I prefer rap and rapper. Really?

Why? Tell me why. I don't know if there's a reason. I think just hip hop carries this big burden of being like the five pillar art form and there's backpacks involved or whatever. So you think of like LP, is that happens? No, I love LP, I think like I... But like backpack rap, like...

Yeah, no, I just think... I don't know if LP actually is in that part. It feels like how the sort of like Smithsonian will refer to it and I feel like that's not what I'm I'm not I feel like pop sounds like white guys talking about rap music I just old people talking about rap music, but it also feels hip-hop is like to me I think I think More of a defined sound like what you're supposed to hear when you hear hip-hop is like a certain type of drum

Maybe I mean what what do tell me what's what you think what you hear hip-hop is like a certain type of drum. Maybe. I mean, what? Do you tell me what to do? What it sounds hip-hop? I don't know. Give me like a song. Like, if it comes to mind. I mean, like, Day Less Old is an excellent example of like hip-hop I love, you know? Right.

But to be honest, it's just like a more inclusive term. It's like, if you're rapping, you're making rap music. Right. But then you, it's certain to include people like, include people like like Lincoln Park or No, because they have wraps in their songs Into the rap category. They're making shitty rap music. They're like whatever. They're big. He's shitty. He's shitty rap music Yeah, rap music. Okay. I was always big fan of rap music. So rap and and like folk punk Yeah, is that right? I just just wanna make sure I'm understanding this.

And I think I like also, right, when I was younger, I was like trying to understand, you know, it was like reading blogs and trying to understand like why DeVendor Banthart was supposed to be so good. Yeah, you know, like DeVendor Banthart, right? I'm like five, it's okay. I'm not a big fan personally.

I'm never a fan. I'm never a fan. It's like, it's not stayed with me in my adult life. Right, all right, what's the first record you ever bought? So I- First of all, did you ever buy a record? Yes. Is that your weird question? I realize like what a stupid thing. I mean, I grew up in that like you go to Best Buy. You buy like five CDs on a

on a weekend or whatever. Right. I think the record, I remember, I don't know if it was like the very first, but there was definitely like a trip to the CD store where I had, I got the silver chair album, Frogstump and a land is more set jacket of a pill. Oh my god. Silverchair, it's really bad, right? Yeah, I don't, I- Silverchair, it's like a through, Nirvana 3.0 kind of band. Yeah.

Oh, Silverchair is a Australian band. I had, yeah. The lead singer's like pretty young, he's like 18 years old. I believe later they were like resuscitated by MTV because they have like an anorexia awareness. Yeah, what's their hit with silver Chica I honestly don't even remember. I'm surprised you don't want to talk about a lanus. No, no, I'm getting there I'm getting there. So you also bought jagged little pill. Yeah, which is like to me is like more

Understandable that was like well, I mean whatever. I mean you can I think I was always really into pop music Like I think that that's still I'm I'm like, and to some extent where I'm like, oh, I'm not a music person, I think I'm just like really, I'm comfortable with being somebody who really likes melodic pop music. And I, yeah. So do you like all the stuff that Dr. Luke does at Max Martin?

Are you a fan of like, you know, Selena Gomez's new record or whatever? I have, and listen to the Selena record. I hear it's great. You know, I'm a huge fan of Max Martin and that he was like a part of this, like I think that the stuff that Max Martin was like the studio intern and he was doing like

Ace of Base Records. Like those are my favorite records of all time. I was gonna ask you what your favorite record of all time. I mean, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like,

I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I you can take this one record with like Desert Island, you can take this record and that's so difficult. Yeah, for me that's, I think that for me, like the easy answer to that question

is like Alcasta Kwon-mini, which is like everything to me. And then I think like, like, paired to futures tape streets calling from 2011 for me is just like, it's, I don't know, it's just my favorite. So it's one of those too. It's like both of those, you can't,

they're both dungeon families. You can't take one. They're like in the same family. Yeah. But you can only take one. I guess you take the outcast record, right? I don't know. No, I take the future records.

Really? Yeah, man. Wow. But you say that now through like a modern lens. People have been telling me that I'm gonna stop being a future fan for like six years and I'm still a future fan. What is it about future that you like so much? I don't, because I don't actually,

personally, I'll be honest, I don't, it doesn't do, it's not doing anything for me. Yeah, well, I think, I mean, then again, I'm not that cool. He's got, I mean, he's made a ton of songs and they run a real spectrum and I think to like, want to stick with him for everything is one thing, but I don't, I mean, to me that he,

it's like the same shit I love about Bob Marley or something, which might seem like really stretchy. Which is what, which is what? Just being like a total voice for the people Bob Marley or something, which might seem like really stretchy. Which is what? Which is what? Just being a total voice for the people and being like this really stretched thin, like grasping for air, soulful type person. Yeah.

What do you think about the Drake future? Who writes who killer hooks? What do you think about the Drake future stuff? I think it's awesome. I mean, I think that I feel in some way, like just Drake has really dominated my whole year, both as an editor and a listener. And that's true for everybody.

Yeah, and I don't, I guess there's nothing wrong with that, you know, I think to a certain extent, as a curious listener and a little hesitant about that, I'm like, man, I really gotta make sure to not, you know, to listen to something else. But yeah, I think it's great. I think to some extent, as a future fan, I have a tiny chip on my shoulder

because I think the sort of the melodic innovation that is happening on some of those songs is really coming from Drake, which was a surprise to me. But it's a stellar performance from Feature's album this year, DS2 is incredible. And it was like really, for me, it's really satisfying to see him both cell records and to convert some of these kind of like these naysayers who just didn't,

we're in writing for it, or we're really writing against it for so long. Well, that's actually really interesting. Like I've been thinking a lot about, if you look at the musical landscape now, it feels like everything that is good is also popular. Like I feel like we're in a really weird time. I mean, when I grew up, and this is probably true for you,

when you grew up, and God, this sounds like lame shit, when I say like, what did I grew up? But like, there's definitely like a divide between what was popular and what like a lot of people listen to, what like the masses listen to, and what like I was into, or what people I knew was into, and was like considered indie, or not mainstream. Do you feel like there's been a convergence

that I feel like this has been driven by just like the rise of the internet as the place where everybody kind of gets this stuff, but doesn't seem like, I mean, how long was future doing records and not making money because it feels like, I feel like I've heard people talk about future forever and like in the way that like, oh yeah,

this is good, you gotta listen to it, everybody's listening to it. Yeah, well, future was always making money because future is playing a million shows. Well, there you go. So that's, so you know, that's an important element of his longevity and I think a testament to his, was something, but no, I think, to some extent,

yes, I think this is very true that there's sort of no underground and no mainstream. And I think it's, it, it, uh, but no, I think to some extent, yes, I think this is very true that there's sort of no, no underground and no mainstream. And I think it's, it, it, it's definitely a conversation that comes up a lot at Fader because Fader was sort of this place that was going to, was never like, was never so indie and so better than the mainstream, right? Which was like one of the reasons to me it was always more appealing as a brand than like the pitch works of the world, you know, no shots to pitch work. I'm a huge fan of what they do, but like just as a reader growing up, which is why I felt like I belonged at Fader was because it was like it didn't have any problem with liking Zoolgeboy or whatever, but he did have a cover, which was like much later, arguably like kind of like post post fam. Yeah, like years following cranked up. What's he doing now? A great story.

He's still actually, this is something that maybe you'd be interested in. I'm really obsessed with Soldier Boy's Facebook page. He, it, like, it posts these like shell posts that used to be hosted on lockerdome.com, which is a website that fascinates me, but now are from soldierboyHD.com, which are like these crazy clickbait posts that when you actually like go down the rabbit hole of them don't even make sense. And most of the headline, it's crazy. So the soldier boy has a spam face. Clearly making money off of that. That's not how you're doing other things.

No, it's dark as fuck. I feel like the soldier boy is not doing like internet scan ads on his face, but he has tapes once in a while. You know, um, well, where are we talking about? What do you think of it? What do you think that feels like that I have to say? Sorry, I'm losing my voice here, but what do you think it feels like to be soldier boy? And then now you're like, you've got like weird click scam stuff on Facebook. Like, that is, so it doesn't make a movie about that. They're missing an opportunity.

It does seem dark. I think soldier boy's entire life has honestly been super surreal. Really? Yeah. Why? I know. He was one of the first viral YouTube stars. You know, he became this really prolific kid who was like really into playing.

I think kind of just have an inner circle around him played a lot of video games. Right. Uh, kept making music has kind of like never had any illusion of being like the best author, but has always just been like an intense sponge for anything that's happening at that moment, which in some ways really is like a forefather of like today's Vine Stars or something. Right.

I don't know what it's like to be so much more. I love Fetty Wap. I love Fetty Wap. Well, yeah. So, parallels actually. I feel like, you know what I think pretty different. I mean, I think if what's incredible about Fetty Wappers that there's no parallel, right? He's like literally like an immaculate conception miracle to kind of come out of Patterson,

New Jersey with this amazing video. Yeah. It's amazing song. Well, how does that happen? Well, I mean, I like high schoolers, first of all, right? Like he has this song and like kids lifted up and I think that happened with chief Keith as well that it's really like past from middle school girl to middle school girl. I mean that's what I'm saying like the virality of it at least like there's probably no other comparison to soldier boy but the virality of it.

Yes. Where it came from very much like oh what's this like I don't know where like it wasn't right. I mean I don't know how much this is probably bad comparison. I don't know how much soldier boy was like constructed by a label versus like I don't think he was it all right legitimately like this came from and I think I don't I don't think any of these people are constructed by a label but the difference between like T Wayne who had a very viral song with nasty freestyle this year and there's like there's been a

ton of viral songs this year and last year. That name feels like it's like yeah oh yeah it's like a little bit of a couple of different names that I know so I guess I'll just accept this But Fetty Fetty did it four time five time, you know like no, but his that's the thing It's like one after another it feels like yeah, and I think he's been you know I've seen Fetty do these like little spot appearances on other people's tours or on his own tour like he can actually sing live Which is I to me, I actually. Really? Yeah, like his voice sounds great.

Like maybe maybe some days it doesn't sound great because he's been out here a while. But the records are like heavily like auto tuned. I mean, not auto tuned for like to make it good, but auto tuned to make it sound like. Yeah. That's not a natural sound that is happening. No, but he is really like out here wailing.

And I think like that's been a thing that people are like, oh, future just auto-d, whatever, T-Pane just auto tunes. Like it's like all these people like have a real sense of melody and what they want to do with their philosophy. Well, yeah, their use of auto tunes to pervert the sound of like what would be like typically melodic, which is what makes it interesting.

Totally. You know, it's not like you're using auto tune to correct something. You're actually using auto tune to break something. Yeah. But yeah, Fetty Wap, I don't know. Like he took it, he took it from it to terrestrial radio to pop radio, right? Not just to urban radio in this like incredible way. And I think really what he, what he shows though is like this, the divide between urban radio and pop radio is so like arbitrary and stupid. Right. You know, and I don't really understand why it exists in America.

Well, it's because there's a huge mechanism that was built to support one. I mean, that doesn't exist for the other, right? Right. I mean, there's like a, it's like, you know, payola, but not payola, but it is essentially like a system that is designed by like major labels and record, or sorry, major labels and radio stations, right? Totally. I mean, terrestrial, I don't know even who's gonna listen

to terrestrial radio in five years. I think it's a really good question, because I mean, it's still such a powerful force. Yeah, but at some point one of two things happens, right, like every car has Apple or Google in it and or serious. And so I mean, do you consider serious to be terrestrial radio?

I mean, it's not. I mean, do you consider it to be part of the same? No, I'm thinking of really like, yeah. I mean, serious is, I think serious, often has a really positive impact on artists and songs too. And can really like be that fire starter for artists. Right. And I love it.

Would I have a rental car? I could, you know, like, I think it's really good. But no, I'm thinking like just like that, you know, that whatever that dad is turning on for his kid in the car, it has like the most basic set, yeah. To me, maybe I'm not like the right person as an, to use an example, but like I never put on, maybe I'll listen to WNYC once in a while,

like I'll listen to NPR, but I never put on music on the radio ever anymore. You never ask the Uber driver, like, can we listen to Hot 97? Usually when I'm in an Uber, it's for like, it's very brief. I'm like going somewhere in like the city or in another city, like between like a 15 minute, you know, point A to point B, or I'm in an Uber going to the airport or coming back from the airport. And those are the times that I probably don't want to hear any music at all, where I'm

like, it's like 7 a.m. and I'm in traffic on like 4.95. I guess that's the difference between me and you. It's just like at 7 a.m. all I want to hear is doing. Oh, we can even talk about this actually speaking of 7 a.m. So you exercise this morning, you're telling me you do soul cycle. I do. Yeah. On Tuesdays. But before you came here, you were with sway. Yes. So from MTV. Which is, I mean, it's incredible. here, you were with Sway. Yes. From MTV. Which is, I mean, it's incredible.

What were you doing with Sway? We were talking about Fator 100. It was, I love that. I love that I now, I feel like I've got a, I feel like I could be in contact with Sway if totally necessary. And to me, Sway is like a mythical character. Right, me to NFC. Because he's been like the only thing that has stayed the same on MTV TV and he looks so good. Like 15, 20 years or something.

I think maybe something that was weird about me, which is like the reason that I've been this job right now, right, is not just that I was like some crazy music fan, but was that I was like really interested in sway, like really interested in sort of. You were person. Like really into magazines, you know and and i think that it's awesome to be able to kind of being out of me so good it is i think so is really excellent at a job i think like that actually the serious show is probably like the best expression of his talents

which i will channel i think it's hip-hop nation i don't know if there's like a bunch of there's a handful of hip-hop i know it's shade 45 actually right what is it there's like a bunch though i mean it's not like one yeah there, there's, there's shade 45 hip hop nation and the heat, which is tight. All right, so let me ask you something. So music, I feel like, so first of like pop music has been basically eaten by hip hop or rap, depending on who you talk to.

Like I feel like pop music almost doesn't exist as like the pop music form that we've known for a really long time. I don't know. I don't know. You think it does? Yeah, there's, I mean, what is- What's the most popular song on the radio right now. I don't know. I don't know. You think it does? Yeah, there's, I mean, what is- And what's the most popular song on the radio right now?

I mean Taylor Swift is like the pop artist. Okay, forget about Taylor Swift, she's in count. Yeah. What's your take on Taylor Swift? You know, it's like, I'm just not a fan, but I, but like let her be a fan, she, like, like, she's done incredible things. I think she-

But she's fucking annoying sometimes. You got to admit. It's just not for me. That's what shit is annoying. Yeah, it's, it's, I'm not saying this by the way, I'm not saying this as like a member of the patriarchy or whatever, I'm saying it as an observer of pop,

like the pop music world. I don't quite understand it or why, what it's like really doing for her and her career right now, but like, I don't know, when Rihanna goes on stage, like Rihanna has an amazing squad of real friends. You don't, you only want to see Rihanna. I think people, I mean think people would clearly be happy to only see Taylor Swift too.

I can't say. I think, but there's nothing. I don't know. It does feel like a point on. It does feel like a point on. You know, Drake is really famous for these sort of co-signs, but they- Yeah, but Drake's co-signs are feel authentic.

And I feel like, I feel like, what it makes me most about Taylor Swift at this point is not her music. It's this feeling that we should all be like that like root for Taylor and all of her friends. It's like, you know what? I don't want to like root for the most popular girl in high school or whatever. Like, it's not, that it's not appealing to me. Yeah, I mean, I think you're the best and you've got a lot of awesome friends. Like, congratulations. That little, whether it was manufactured or not, and I think it probably wasn't the sort of like,

when she, when Nicki Minaj was sort of very eloquently speaking about being her frustration with not being nominated for a video of the year, and sort of like, and Taylor sort of took it as an insult to her and was like, I'm just trying to be friends with everybody, it was kind of like this real ignorance of anything, but sort of like white feminism, that like white feminism is the most important thing

in the world, and like, I don't know. And not that it matters because it's like MTV and like their relevance is, you know, it's not what it used to be, but like Nikki's right. I mean, also, also like from a talent perspective, I mean, she's like so crazy talented. Like that should be recognized more, I think. Wait, I made a crazy impactful video

that was like absolutely everything that the VMA is sort of looking for. Right. It's actually annoying where they have this kind of like make nice thing. Although I feel like Nikki kind of was not like 100% real in the whole like I'm buddies with Taylor Swift now. Who knows. I think the VMAs really are like this insane like opera of finding last year's funny moment

to memorialize again to make a better moment for next year. It's gotten pretty close. Kanye can do run away the following year because it's perfectly fitting in the- As long as Kanye and Taylor Swift touch every year the VMAs will go on. But it's all manufactured.

I mean, Rem and I were talking about this, but there is a sense of tremendous manufacture. Absolutely. To the whole thing. Which is definitely, it is one of these things in our modern world where it's very difficult to tell now what is a real thing versus what is a manufactured thing. Even like, you look at something like, what is the Harlem Shake? Is that the meme?

That was the meme of the song. It's like, who is it? Brower, Bower, Bower, right? And it's like, the Harlem Shake started, there was like a video, and then like the next most popular one was like BuzzFeed's Harlem Shake video. And it's like, is that actually happening? Or was it created by like a media entity?

And now like, because the media entity, which also promotes the thing, has done it, I feel like there's a lot of that in our world right now and it's like MTV is like a really good example of this where it's like, oh the Nikki Miley thing was that real or not. It's like the first off doesn't even matter if it's real. I don't think so. Who's it for though? Is it for you?

Is it for kids? Yeah, it's definitely not for music blogs. It's like, all that stuff is great for you. Did you cover that on the fader? Yeah, we covered the VMAs. We had like a little, I think it was actually maybe the first time in Fader history that there was a group, like a squad live vlogging at the office. We've done a lot of live vlogging.

Oh, you did live. Yeah, because it's like not. It's like your ass, like your apple. Cause none of these kids have cable. So where else are they gonna go? You can just go live to someone else. Maybe you gotta pay them some more money. That's who wants cable.

No, no, no, no, no. Time to unionize it. Time to unionize it. The Fader, money. That's who wins Cable. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, by rap music, by house music, internet clearly is changing like what gets popular in some ways. I mean, I think though that there are still these artists that like become just acceptable on this quote, like are loved in a door, not a global level that it's very hard to attain, like in a Dell or a Sam Smith or something,

which I think. Oh, two British, two white British artists. Yeah, but I. Who arguably are making black music. I mean, you know, like the stuff. Oh, to British, to white British music. Yeah, but I. Who arguably are making black music. I mean, you know, like the stuff I do is like totally appropriate. Totally appropriated in terms of like sound, like sonic structures. Right. So I think maybe what would reach is that upper, upper, upper, upper echelon of popular

that like may even elude Fettywap is like kind of like not. It's just not a matter of sound, right? It's a matter of like what people are willing to bring into their homes. So you don't think Fetty Wop can be Taylor Swift. Whether Fetty Wop can be Taylor Swift is like just this crazy other question, but I think that he already really succeeded in like just like proving that, you know, kind of out of left field, you can have not just one, but like many singles that really impact the entire country.

But I think it's like not. Then again, his most well known song side, his most well known song is about like cooking drugs. It's like, Do you know the Fetty Wobb song again? No. It's just a really awesome song. What's it about?

Love. I just heard a song actually that was like a bout love. It's called like something about time. It's like not enough time or any, whatever, they played it during this interview and I was like, this is like kind of romantic. There's so many romantic songs on it. It is actually even trap queen is like,

kind of a romantic song. It's all a romantic song, which is I think why, like really like write those influential teens who are like so obsessed with it. But I think it's like, it's really not so much about sound, right, because like, I don't know, like that crazy Jack U, Justin Bieber song that sounds like nothing you've ever heard before can be a pop song,

anything can be a pop song now, but I think that anything can be Justin Bieber song that sounds like nothing you've ever heard before can be a pop song anything can be a pop song now but I think that and anything can be a rap song too. Do you know what I mean like like like or not anything. No, no, but but but Taylor Swift can't have a rap song. I mean if we're gonna call Fetty Wap a rapper if we want right or are we you tell me. I mean he's played on urban. I would call Fetty Wap a singer but I think that he has rapid eye on it. It doesn't wrap really. I guess he does. I mean, 679, he's kind of wrapping on that song.

But none of these distinctions are incredibly important to me. But I am really interested right in like just, pop artists are increasingly really trying to market themselves as like authentic, whatever that means to them. It's like the thing, right? Like Megan Trainor is like, I have curves. That to her is, you know, you said really dismissive when you say that. I am not a she's beautiful, but I'm not a fan of Megan trainer's message necessarily because it feels really canned to me. But I

think that there is this really like intent like all all popular music, but also feel authentic and real. I think that I'm I'm really interested in these pop artists like I don't know Zane Malik leaving one direction and feeling like It's really important for him to like like like only post black and white pictures to Instagram. It's just like a really interesting Is that him being authentic? I don't know. I don't know what it is, you know, I think like it's that well we will find out But I I think that there's like there's this real idea or you know, whatever Carly it's a, well, we will find out. But I, I think that there's like, there's this real idea, or you know, we're going to have our Carly Rae Jepson working with or Salon, back in the day, or somebody like Scott Ferrara, we used to be like straddling record with with Michael.

No. Oh, with weight coin. The Flamie lifts doing what my life is doing whatever she wants. It's so bad. Have you visited it? I, I, I, yeah, I think Michael had some good beats on there. But it's so long. Why is it so long? I think something we can all learn from Future and Drake this year is that 11 song records are pretty tight. They really seem to work in the streaming era.

That's like the standard. Isn't that kind of a standard album length? I don't know. iTunes deluxe editions. A lot of people were doing like 15 to 17 songs and you could repackage and make more money. That's true. And it tapes traditionally, you know, rap makes tapes much longer. Yeah, like Lord, like the Lord has like a deluxe version of her record that has like a bunch of extra songs that probably aren't that necessary for people to hear. Yeah.

It's like, oh, we have some demos that we weren't going to release. But here they are. Right. The deluxe version. The Japan version. No. Yeah. So I mean, I guess getting back to the thing that whatever the fuck it is we were talking about, which I at this point don't really know, is like, um, but music has dramatically

changed, but we still don't have. I do think there is that point of, uh, acceptance of like a truly trap queen can be a breakout hit, but like you don't necessarily see, mean Drake is an example certainly of an artist who but like Drake's like Drake's Drake, you know, he's got like a completely like he was like on TV before he was Drake, you know, and so it's a little bit of a different story than like a Fetty Wop, for instance, you know's like, the music is changing, and it's heavily influenced by that, but are we gonna get to a place where that kind of celebrity is attainable by those kinds of artists? I think it's like, it's such a, it really, it all feels like magic.

Like what makes somebody an artist who doesn't disappear feels like magic, you know? Like, Daesh Love had like a viral hit that came out of nowhere. She's guested on some sort of major label rap songs. Now has a major label deal. Like, will Dage Love survive? Like, I, it's so hard to, it's so hard to make that girl asking that question. And I, but I think right that now that survival has so much to do with sort of

factors that are outside of the music. Like, how good is her Snapchat? Like, will her fans keep showing up to her shows? Like is her live show any good? That seems depressing and weird to me. Like how good is her Snapchat should definitely not be a basis on which we judge an artist? Well, I think when, I mean, I think right,

like in the cases in artists like J Cole, which like let's not assess whether or not his music is great or just okay, but like he has created this long well, I don't know what Jake was like, but he's created this incredibly cement relationship with his fans, where he can kind of continue to explore the creative during that he wants and continue to make money on the road and continue to kind of like disseminate whatever messages he wants to. And I think that is like that is an example of a vital career in music today.

And I think that it's just a lot of that for J. Cole and artist like, and it has to do with like, making exactly the music he wants. And I think at this point, labels or radio are kind of game to just push whatever's making money for them. Like there's no like huge rules.

It just kind of like whatever is clicking. So, but I think, I think yeah, you do have to, there's so many other factors have to come together and it's really hard. I'm a writer and not a musician. But you have to kind of follow this. I mean, you have to kind of have a sense of it.

I mean, in your role, like you basically have to be able to say, like, this is like what is coming up out of this ethereal sort of like stew. Like this is the person who's actually breaking through. Like you can recognize that. I mean, I presumably you guys can recognize it better than, we all sort of like stew, like this is the person who's actually breaking through, like you can recognize that. I mean, I presumably you guys can recognize it better than, I don't know, the average, the average music listener.

All right, let me do, let me do, I want to do, before we end, I want to do a lightning round with you. Cool. This is all over the place where I've enjoyed it thoroughly. I want to do a lightning round on music. I feel like I did a lot of rambling and ranting, which is maybe, all these what I do, I don't really know Magnus, is it?

It is, okay, okay, good. Lightning round can't be controlled, that's true, that's a problem. Who's a new artist that is emerging right now that everybody should listen to that maybe everybody doesn't know about? I'm a huge fan of Kailani, who is an R&B singer from the Bay Area.

She writes her own song. She's like really incredible on Instagram. She's an amazing cover. She was on the cover. Yeah, we just did a cover with her. So hope she's small enough. But that's like kind of a big deal. She's, yeah, she's just, she's just really awesome.

I really like the songs. Okay, worst record of 2015. It's September now, almost October. It may be October when you hear this podcast, depending on when it comes out, but we all sorry, I take that back. Bagd is corrected me. It will be October when you hear this podcast. Worst record of 2015.

That is such a hard question. It's like if it's bad, why I don't even know about it. You've heard records really other stuff. I have not listened to the Ryan Adams Taylor Swift cover thing. I don't plan to. But you're not, you're not excited about it. Yeah, I'm just not going to listen. I feel the same way.

I feel strongly the same way. All right, best record of 2015. Uh, oh my god. Oh my god. Uh, Vince Staples summertime, oh six, as well as young thug, barter. Wow. You have those like, right. It seemed like you were going to be even have trouble naming that there's been a there's been a like a huge amount of really strong albums this year. Right. Okay. What is the what is the musical trend that is starting now that

is like has not made its way to the mainstream at sound a style something that is starting now that is like has not made its way to the mainstream. It's sound, a style, something that is happening right now that is going to be, that is going to change music in the near future. A big trend right now is just, that's a dance trend is dabbing. Dabbing. But I think songs you can dab to will continue to succeed. It's like imagine sneezing into your elbow, kind of like, and that's the move. So, A, if you put your body in that position, it's a nice Instagram pose. You look good while you do it.

This is dabbing. Yeah. Yeah. So that's like, and it's fun to make videos too. So I think any song that like is sick to dab too will continue to succeed. I also, I think, how weird is music? How fucking weird is music? This is what I love about music But any song that's sick to dab to will be successful or whatever. It's like it won't hurt But the dabbing is not a style of music. It's just a dance move. No, but I think yeah, it's like yeah, I don't know It's a certain anyway, so that dabbing is a big thing in ramp right now and what and what is a song that's great to dab to? is a big thing in ramp right now. And what is a song that's great to dab to? I think anything from DS2 is like a decent,

any Metro Booman beat you can dab to for sure. Of course, of course, that's what I do on my dab. All right, what else? Anything else? I think, I don't know. This is like, I wouldn't say that this is a trend I would hope would take on. There's this guy Jackqueweiss, who's a singer, sort of loosely affiliated with Birdman.

And on the young thug album, which I was speaking about, he has this insane, like, almost like country eskiodling adlibs. They're just so beautiful. So I would say country, you know, country, the convergence of country and rap is always irresistible for me. I really like, you mean like accidental racist, the song with, uh, L.A. Cool J. Yeah, exactly like that. No!

No, no. Who is it? Just as a reminder, remember, an accidental racist was a song? Yeah, I feel like Vader covered that actually pretty extensively. It's amazing. Just do yourself a favorite, refresh your memory

and go download and download. Go just go stream and listen to the accent. The rest of the development country rap for something. So like put something more root, something more genuine. Yeah, but I think like, you know, if you, if you, like sort of squint your ear, a lot of Fetty Web songs could sound like country songs as well. So there is, there is like, but he's from Jersey.

Yeah, from Patterson. South Jersey. Yes. Is that is Patterson's out Jersey. I honestly don't know. I know, but but like, but he's not from the South. No, no, no, certainly is that like there is a thread of, I mean, and listen, I'm no expert, but there is kind of like Southern, but the Southern sound has influenced like tremendously influence rap music. Absolutely. Like totally, I like it has become the predominant sort of vibe

in like popular rap music now. Yeah. I'm avoiding saying hip hop because I feel like you've changed me. And I'm saying the exceptions to that real feel like exceptions, right? Like there's a song called Millie Rock that was in New York song.

This year, or like right, Bobby Schmurt has huge hit last year, those feel like exceptions. You think so, Southern is like everything now. Sure. And West Coast, like DJ Muster kind of took over the video. Yeah, mustard. His actual name is Dejon, is that correct? Absolutely.

Dejonic Farlin, I think. I think that's so amazing. I told somebody, I was like, you know, his name is Dejon, and they're like, shut up. You're lying. I'm like, no, this is. No, it's true. That's for me. That's like a reliable party trade that people are like, wow.

I mean, I'm speaking of DJ Snake. Mm-hmm. One hit wonder. No, yeah, that second. That second track. No, he's like, he's on lean on too, right? That huge major laser star. Now, yeah, that's second track. No, he's like, he's on lean on too, right? That huge major laser song. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, he seems to be behind the scenes, like somebody who all these people are really going to for like, what is that? What is that? What do you do when you do those things? He's like a French dude, right? Yeah, I was like, very surprised. Like, I do not, I thought he was like,

from LA or New York or something. And then I'm like, oh wait, he's a French guy. Yeah, but now there's nothing wrong with that. You know, like the Felix J. Hahn remix of Cheerleader or something that became like the biggest song in the world. Oh yeah. You know, like of this like year old song. I think these, these like sort of like anonymous European men are really out here doing stuff. That's like, that's like a thing. Like where there's like a crazy weird remix, like sort of Euro, it's like a Euro remix of some song that nobody's ever heard of that becomes like a huge hit

that actually is like a weird folk song. Yes. Like, prayer and sea, is that a song? If you hear the original verse that is like seriously like a soft folk song and the remix is like some techno Euro techno thing, anyhow. All right, listen, this is a lot of fun. We have to wrap, because we're like well over

and now we have to wrap. The Fader 100 is on stands. October 27th, and you can check it out on the Fader. Which also happens to be my anniversary. So I feel like in a way, this is your anniversary gift to me and Laura. And obviously the Fader is on the internet all day every day. And if you're interested in music, I highly say,

I mean, if you're not reading the Fader, what's the point? What's the point? What's the point? What's the point of leaving living? Zelda reads it. Zelda's a huge fader fan. Nobody says the fader. People say just a fader, right?

It is the fader, though. That's an addition to expanding culture, really trying to get people to say the fader. Yeah, so just think about it, guys. When you're talking about the fader to friend, you fell away. Remember that, though. Yeah, we thank you for coming. Thanks, Josh.

And as always, I wish you and your family the very best. Although I understand your family has clicked on some internet links, and now they have no money. you