Tomorrow - Episode 28: Laura June and the Contrarian Disposition

Episode Date: October 18, 2015

It's Josh's birthday, so who better to guest Tomorrow than the person who knows him best: his wife, writer and editor Laura June? What Josh mistakenly intended to be a reverse-interview situation — with Laura asking the questions — swiftly escalates into a heated debate on matters as diverse as the Hollywood income gap, hebrew school, the future of technological innovation, and the biggest environmental threat no one wants to talk about. Experience the couple as never before and be changed forever. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

[♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hey and welcome to Tomorrow. I'm your host Josh Wittipulski. Today on the podcast we discuss colors, meat, and torture porn. But first, a word from our sponsors. This episode of Tomorrow with Josh Wittipulski is brought to you by Wealthfront. Wealthfront is a low cost automated investment service that makes it easy to invest your money the right way. It works 24-7 to manage your portfolio, keeping it diversified, customized to your risk profile, and optimizing its trading behavior to keep your tax below, all without ever charging

commissions. Whether you've got millions or you're just starting out, Wealthfront is the most sophisticated way to invest your money. To sign up and get your free personalized investment portfolio, go to Wealthfront.com slash tomorrow. Tomorrow is also sponsored by Hyrd. Are you a tech professional surgeon for a new company to share your tech skills with? Then you should check out Hyrd. Hyrd connects talent with top tech companies. On Hyrd, software engineers and designers can get five plus interview requests in a week. And since they work with over 25 hundred companies from startups to large public companies and employers from 12 major tech hubs in North America and Europe, you're bound to find the right position for you. If you

use our special link, hired.com slash tomorrow podcast to sign up, the double bonus when you accept a job. That's right, they'll double the $2,000 thank you bonus when you sign up at hired.com slash tomorrow podcast. If you're not looking for a job at know someone who is, you can refer them to hired and get a $1,337 bonus when they accept a job too. So what are you waiting for? Check out hire.com slash tomorrow podcast now. My guest today is a very special lady, a very important person in my life.

It's my wife and partner and friend, Laura June. Is this how you introduce all women on your podcast? Yes, as my wife, friend and partner. Yeah, all women. Anyhow, this is a very special episode of tomorrow, the tomorrow podcast. Do you know why? Because it is your birthday. Because it's, well, it will be my, when people hear this, it will be my birthday.

And- You're 28th birthday. My 20th, I'll be 28. And you know, I gotta say you learn a few things, you know, in those 10 years following adulthood, because when you hit 18 and you're an adult, and then for the next 10 years, as I've experienced, because I'm 28 years old, I'm just like a young... Do you really think that you became an adult

when you were 18? Because I think I was about 24. That was the moment that you became an adult. I think around the year 24, yeah. I don't know, I don't think that I'd be... I still don't think I've been an adult to this day. And I think that nobody's actually an adult. I think that everybody is just pretending

they're huge babies. I mean, I think about yourself. Here's what I like to do is think about yourself when you're really hungry and how you feel. Oh, I don't have the problems you have when I'm hungry. I think that most people, when they get really hungry, if they're really, really hungry, they feel like crying.

And I think that you're in touch. And they lash out at the people around. They lash out at anybody and get their hands on it. I think, but when you feel that way, I think it's your touch with your inner baby, which is really what's inside of you. It's just a huge baby. Having spent a lot of time around a real baby

and actual baby recently, I can say I have almost nothing in common with baby. See, I feel like I have a lot in common with, though. I think you do too. And I think that spending eight years with you was actually fairly good preparation for dealing with our. She's a lot more manageable though.

She had less words. What a disgusting dish to make. What a harsh part. No, I mean, I think there are certain things about your personality. You're not that good at dealing with annoyances. I hate annoyances. I hate annoyances. Very small things that I think as a lot of adults just sort of learn to try to pretend

they're not happening. You know, they're hunger. I like to let anything small ruin a good time. I'm the kind of guy who will let any, you know, a buzzing light or, you know, the sun, mostly light-related, food-related. I can get any situation ruined up pretty quickly. I actually don't think the Zelda gets cranky when she's hungry, but she's eating like 12 hours a day non-stop. So. Yeah, I don't get to, I don't care about snacks with me.

Let me preface this by saying, if you don't know, Laura is an editor and a writer, one of the founding editors of the verge.com. Second only to being your wife. Second only. She does some other things, but mainly she's my wife. My wife right that's so cool. Is that cool to do? Yeah.

Okay. Yeah I know the first and foremost you're taking care of me and the baby and then there's some other things you do you know out there. No I mean you're obviously a very accomplished writer and editor and a lot of people have read your work. A lot of people have have been angry about your work because you're provocative, you're provocative writer,

you like to get people's blood going, you like to get their blood boiling. I don't think I like to, I just think it's very natural to me. Yeah, you can't help yourself because you're a very controversial person. I'm always annoyed. Oh, well, then you know how I feel about life.

Anyhow, so I thought it would be a good idea to have you on my birthday podcast, because you really, you really know me better than anybody. It's true. I've talked to Jennifer Daniel, the wonderful designer illustrator. Your wife. My wife and partner and friend. No, but she suggested that you should interview me for this podcast. And I was thinking,

well, I wish you would have told me beforehand. I would have come up with some questions because I think I could come up with some really good ones. Well, I was thinking that what would be as spontaneous and fun experiment is to see what you came up with. On the spot. I was just thinking, like, are there things now we've known each other for how? You know how I love to be put on the spot. You love being put on the spot almost as much as you love opening presence in front of other people. Let me tell you a story about Laura that you may not know. And if you know this, then you probably know her pretty well. If you know this.

Then you're one of five people who was in the room. Yeah, if you know this and you don't, you don't have a very close personal, probably familial relationship with Laura, then I'm very worried about how you got this information. Laura hates to open presence in front of other people. Like if you're at a party, if you're at her birthday party, for instance, and you give her a present, she like is very mad

about having to open it in front of other people. It is very mad about the expectations that other people put on her in regards to what her reaction will be when the present is open. Yes. We had a baby shower, and we had to open a lot of presents in front of a large group of people and you were pretty bad. No, I actually did really well in that one, but that was my third. There's like a trifecta of present giving in a life of a married person sometimes. When you get engaged, you occasionally get presents from close family.

When you get married, I had a bridal shower, which is a large group of fair work, literally the only purpose as far as I can tell is to open gifts. I tried very hard to convince people that it would be better if they didn't bring any gifts, and they just mailed them to us, but that didn't fly. Everyone wants to see you open the gifts. I performed extremely badly

with that, you were not there. You cried, right? No, I actually announced very early on that I had been told by members of your family that I was bad at opening gifts. This is years ago, too. No, yeah, this is a really long time ago. And I was like, look, I want to say upfront,

I'm pretty bad at this. Like, I'm really thankful, but it's very hard. Like, I don't really, it doesn't seem happy. What kind of childhood trauma do you think that is responsible for this situation? Because I think it's very strange. Like, you don't like being put on the spot. Yeah.

You don't like when people are watching for your reaction to something. Yes. That's the thing the bothers you, right? I would like to think that it has some in to do with growing up in the 90s where I really and I know that that's a really good. A lot of people group in the 90s, I've never met anybody else who gets the way you get about opening presents.

Here's the thing, I don't like to feel like I'm acting. And I feel like a lot of gift giving is even if you like a present, I feel like you have to emote in a certain way to get the group reaction, and I'm very, very bad at that. I'm very bad at doing the thing that is expected of me. I don't really like a lot of people looking at me, waiting for me to react to a pot holder. Which is...

I guess I understand that. I don't know. Is there something wrong with me? I mean, most people just pretend to enjoy themselves. That's what they do. You're really good at pretending. You're really good in groups and stuff. I know both of us don't really like making small talk with people. I'm really shitty at that.

It's not like I'm just bad at opening gifts. I'm bad at holding up my end of a conversation if I'm not interested. You seem a lot more anti-social than you actually are in social settings because you don't even try to pretend like you're having a good time. Right. I have a sip of your wine.

Sure. I should have had you. I should have gotten it. I should have had something of your... Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've actually gotten better at it over the years. I know I'm still like subpar, you know, for most people, but I do think I've gotten better at it.

I think it's fine. I think you're fine at it. I don't think it's that big of a deal. Anyhow, we were talking about you interviewing me. How do we get on the topic of your opening presence? I have no idea. I'll be putting you on the spot because you didn't have questions. I don't like to be put on the spot. Anyhow, are there any things we know each other for a long time?

How long have we known each other? 10 years. Are there any questions that you've ever wanted to ask me or that you maybe even ever even thought of? Things you don't know about me. Like, what's my favorite color, do you know? You don't know? No, is it green? It's not fucking green.

No, it's not even close to green. Is it navy blue? No, no, it's not navy blue. Is it purple? No. Purple is your favorite color. Is it navy blue? No, no, it's not navy blue. Is it purple? No. Is it pink? Purple is your favorite color. Is it pink?

Purple, your favorite color? My favorite color is gray. Gray is not a color. I don't want to get into the nitty gritty here, but gray. That would fight the best answer. I think shades of gray is typically what people say when they're talking about the variances between black and white, neither which are really considered colors.

I may guess in the broadest sense of the term. You know, it used to be pink. Yeah. You said that, those are your fifth thing that you said. So I guess it's the way you really do know me. Well, yeah. I don't know, I think that's evolving. For me, my favorite color is always.

But you made, this was your question for yourself. Wow. I wanna just, as you see the as an example of a question that one might ask. What is your favorite book? I don't know the answer. You don't know? You really don't?

No. I think I know the answer for you. Yours is Jane Eyre. Yes. That's correct. My favorite book is You Beac. And you know that because I've read it. I love you.

My favorite book is You Beac by Phil Foghug. Oh, okay. Yeah favorite book is you know that because I've read my favorite book is you back by Okay, yeah, I like that one. It's a toss up between you back or some people call it Ubeck. They're wrong of course. That's not how you don't call it. Yeah, I've heard people say, Ubeck just for the record if you're walking around talking about Ubeck, you're saying it wrong. So you're the kind of person who someone would be like, yeah, I loved Ubeck. You'd be like, that's not how you say it. I would never say that. I would probably say I think it's pronounced UbeIC, you'd be like, that's not how you say it. I would never say that. I would probably say, I think it's pronounced UBIC.

I would be like, that's not how you say it. I would give them like a little bit of, you know, you know, actually, is that how it's pronounced? I think, I actually think it's pronounced UBIC. I mean, I could be wrong. It'd be one of those. Like, maybe I'm wrong, but I think you're wrong. It's just toss up between UBIC and Breakfast of Champions

by Kurt Vonnegut. Have you ever read that? Yeah. It's got a great monologue by Rabo Karabakhian and it about on wavering bands of light, which is what he paints. Actually, recently Tumblr the passage from that book, my favorite passage from A Book,

which is in that book. It's odd, that's not even my favorite Kurt Vonnegut book. It's not the most popular Kurt Vonnegut book, certainly, it's no slaughterhouse- It's the first one I read. It's the first one I read and it changed my life. I think Mother Knight is my favorite. I don't want to ruin you, Bick, for anybody or the Breakfast of Champions. They're just to say that I think they have a there's some common themes explored in both of them. Of course, they're a product of a kind of similar generation of writer at any rate. So,

yeah, so no, you haven't asked actually asked me any questions. Oh, yes, my, my favorite book is okay. No, I've just wondered like there's things like that that I have to imagine. This was a my idea, by the way, this is Jennifer Daniels idea, so. Right, you're what? You like that. Right, why have you part, life partner. I just want to say that and she listed, apparently, listen to this, she told me this podcast. So she'll hear that.

What's outstanding. Is that great news? Though she really seemed to like internet explorer, the Buzzfeed podcast a lot more. Everyone's a huge fan. Well, you know, it's it's Katie Natopoulos, who is your wife, my sister in law. I'm going to keep saying that. Please do. My sister in law.

And I guess your sister in law. Yes. And yes, there was a long conversation over whether or not like because who's that who's a little character that does with her a Ryan Browderick is he small I don't know he's not I don't think I think he's regular size Ryan Browderick yeah I think it's a good podcast you should listen to it's very funny it's about the internet my podcast is not funny or about the internet so anyway we could make it about the internet if you need to no but let's talk actually let's talk you wrote something recently speaking of the internet if you need to. No, but let's talk, actually, let's talk. You wrote something recently, speaking of the internet.

You wrote something this week about Jennifer Lawrence. Yes. She penned a letter in the Lenny letter, which is Lena Dunham's newsletter. Yes. Because newsletters are very hot. It's not really on the internet, but sort of is. It's the private internet that gets delivered

into your inbox the other day. Anyhow, Lena Dunham has a newsletter called Lenny and Jennifer Lawrence, this is a very complex story. Jennifer Lawrence penned a letter in the newsletter about the... In the essay, I guess, yeah. Sure, about the wage gap for women. So she found out when the Sony hack happened,

just like the rest of us, she started reading the emails that everyone was publishing. And I think the story is that there was a spreadsheet there, or a couple of emails back and forth about not specifically her pay, but the points that she was going to get, which was basically royalties on the film. Yeah, the percentages on the back. And she found out, and I can't even remember the name of the film, it was a film that she was in with Bradley Cooper. That would be, I think the film you're thinking of is either American Hustle. It's American Hustle, yes.

Or it's Silver Line's Playbook. No, it's American Hustle. The new film that she's in with, when she was, she found out that she made a lot less money than, I think, all of the main male stars of the movie. She doesn't say how much. I assume that that information's out there, though I didn't go for it because I think it's beside the point. Anyway, she wrote about that and said basically, you know, I didn't really get pissed off at Sony. I was pissed off at myself because I...

Basically, she was like, I think that our society raises women to be sort of not great advocates for themselves. Not to worry about the tone of our voice, to worry what people will think if we ask for more money, and she was like, well, I have millions of dollars, so I just didn't bother. Right. Which is pretty cool, a pretty cool attitude. Yeah.

I feel like making 25 million, but maybe I can make 35 million. Right. I mean, she's extremely, she's the highest paid actress in Hollywood. That's interesting. I mean, the point is she's extremely well paid, but what I found to be interesting first was

that even at the top end of the earnings spectrum, that problem is basically exactly the same. So even though her paychecks are not relatable to women, and regular women, the situation is, it's completely relatable, it's just a scale issue. Right, and so your point was interesting. And I thought was very interesting about the about what she wrote, which is that the idea of her blaming herself is sort of insane. I mean, blaming yourself is a really

philosophical sort of thing to do. Yeah. And I'm not sure it was fully. I took her at her word in the essay that I wrote in response to her essay. I'm not sure she was being 100% like, of course she was pissed off at Sony. There's no way she wasn't. My point was more of a, if you're gonna put yourself out there and say like, I'm not gonna keep quiet anymore,

I want everyone to know that I was really pissed off about this. Then I think you should go the further step and say, the company that did this to me, the executives that knew they were paying me less. And in fact, in the emails, they basically were like, hey, this is pretty unfair. The information's out there. I was like, oh, you should just fucking burn it down and name names. And in some of the comments were like, wow, if she names names, then people will get in

trouble. But that information was- That information is widely available. It's not like she would actually be doxing anyone. But your basic idea is that- and I, what I think is doesn't, isn't that information was, is widely available? It's not like she would actually be like doxing anyone. But your basic idea is that, and I, what's I think is really interesting, you talk about the, um, the fapening, which if anybody will recall, which is the delightful name that people on Reddit and presumably Fortchan gave to the leak of photos that included Jennifer Lawrence,

a lot of other female, mostly female celebrities in the nude, like hacked from their phones or whatever. She, I mean, I think this is something, I feel. She did a similar thing, basically. And I feel like we talked about this when it happened, which is she did an interview in Vanity Fair about how, basically like if you looked at those pictures, you were a sex criminal of some type. Right.

And I'm not saying she's wrong, I'm certainly a terrible sex criminal. And I didn't look I didn't look at the research purposes. And I'm not a sex criminal. You're not a sex criminal in that case. But I think we know you've committed other sex crimes. She was like, anybody's looked at that as a is a criminal and you know, it was like had this big thing of vanity fair, but vanity fair is owned by a company called Condé Nast. And Condé Nast is own or part of a company called Advanced Communications. Is this correct?

Am I getting this right? And Advanced also owns Reddit, which was- Right, which like, as a matter of- Plays where like the fapeting was widely just, now the pictures themselves weren't hosted or distributed there, but it was the source of, pretty much everybody who wanted to go find them. That was where they were like, for chance like a little nothing. It's very little. Reddit is huge and it was the source of, pretty much everybody who wanted to go find them. That was where they were like, four chants, like a little nothing.

It's very little. Read it is huge, and it was like a lot of people were sharing, like links to the pictures, and helping other people find the pictures, and talking about which pictures are in the sets, and you know, collect the mall sort of stuff. Yeah, I mean, at the time that it happened, and she put the interview out in Vanity Fair, it was like the first interview she gave. And she had a big thing, it was like she speaks on this. It was like exclusive. Jennifer Lawrence talks about her.

I mean, she probably didn't know about that. And I gave her the benefit of the doubt at the time. I think she didn't know, even though I think the people that work around her probably could have said that to her, I think that they could have been smart enough. You did pretty savvy, actually, I think. Right. Like, I work in the media. I'm aware of that stuff.

It doesn't take me long to Google, vanity, fair, and go, oh, they are the same company as right. But did anybody write about that at all? Did anybody say that this is really true? No, and actually, at the time, I started to write something about it. And then I was like, you know what? Who gives a shit?

What she's saying is important. I thought it was important that someone was like, this is a crime. You shouldn't be looking at my. And I think another point that she made, which is really valid, is that like, just because I'm a celebrity doesn't mean that I deserve to get hacked. And I think that's true.

I think at a very basic level, she's just as deserving of privacy as I am, and I don't want my nude's hacked either. Just like I don't want to make 25% less than men at the same job where I'm doing a better job, because that's basically like what happened to her. She is better than Bradley Cooper, I think. So I do think that like in both cases she wanted to like let people know she was pissed off but she actually didn't want to blame anyone in any position of power.

Or people who were actually directly responsible for like, I mean, in the case of Reddit, they certainly were the help to keep the fire burning on that thing or to regenerate the fire about it. And then it would be much harder if it was just on 4chan or just on some weird gossip sites. And it even said like websites that published them, like not a lot of websites actually did publish them, but plenty of them that publish them, like not a lot of websites actually did publish them, but

plenty of them linked to them, including like Gawker, which is I wrote the piece yesterday for Jezebel, which is part of Gawker. She's owned by the Gawker Corporation. But then on the Sony one, I think it's pretty clear to me that, and I think this is really interesting to think about that, uh, well you sort of, I mean, this is your idea, but it's like, it's good to say it. It's kind of bad to stop short of saying, and actually Sony is responsible. But like, I feel like a conclusion that you draw from that. And the one that I draw from it is that if Jennifer Lawrence had been like, I am mad at Sony because they knew they know that this unfair. They talked about it in emails and they did it anyway.

We need to hold companies accountable for this or nothing's going to change. Basically, it's probably very likely that she would be blacklisted in Hollywood and so on. Right. I mentioned in the article, there's a bunch of recent examples of mostly women actresses being, they come out and they say, and it's hard to know what actually happens behind the scenes, but I have been blackballed because of this or that or whatever. It's a very famously, recently, Rose McGowan sort of went on a crazy tweet storm where she was talking about sexism and casting calls, and then it turned out to be like related to a casting call she got for an Adam Sandler movie.

Yeah, I heard. I read it. And then she was like a few hours later or a day later, she was like, oh, by the way, my agent fired me because she Just shot her mouth off. We're not being sympathized with and no one really wants to work on a whistleblower Right, but I was it being difficult or is that is that calling bullshit on an industry that's I think that like there's a general Thing going on in the world right now. I called it new era of nice feminism, but I actually think it's a new era of like

niceness generally, where people don't want to be haters, right? They don't want to be seen as fucking people who are like, this sucks, I hate this. But like, there are things that suck in the world. And like the fact that Jennifer Lawrence or I make less than a man that I'm doing the same or better job, that sucks. And I think it's okay to say it sucks. And she is saying it sucks, but she's stopping short of anything that's going to cause her

future material harm. And a lot of the commenters on my piece in Jezebel were like, it's not fair to expect her to do this because you know how it is. You know she'll be blackbought, she'll never work again. And it's like, yeah, but how fucked up is that? I think that's a, that's all the more reason. I mean, I'm not saying, but if anybody's going to be able to put their ass on the line and not.

Right. Someone has to do it. Has me. If anybody, yeah, if anybody's going to be able to like, what are you going to do? And you don't want to cast Jennifer Lawrence in your movie. She's like one of the most popular actresses in the world without question. So I actually think if there's anybody in a position

to be able to say to Sony or whoever This is messed up and it's I mean this is you're doing and you need to fix it It's like why I mean I do think it's so there's a large problem. We're talking about this is like Sean Penn I'm sorry like I want to bring this up to be like Sean Penn like is you know beat up Madonna and then has been just Basically an insane person forever, you know going to New Orleans with like a shotgun and like saving people, which is actually, I guess, was kind of cool in a way, like during Katrina. I mean, I don't know. It was a cool story.

But I mean, it's a long history sort of saying things. And you know, he's he's punch, he's punched paparazzi. Well, they probably like that. No, but I'm saying like he is known for he has a reputation for being a bad boy. Yeah. Right. And that's okay, it's for a man. And I think, but I do think that, right, like you can get away with, you can get away with more shit like that.

You know, if John Hamm was like, I think this wage gap for men is messed up like, you know, if he was like reverse, nobody would be like, Oh, John Hamm, you'll never work in this town again. You just don't, I can't imagine that. Well, I mean, maybe I don't know, I don't really know, but it doesn't feel like it does feel like it's a bit of a double standard. Then get away with a lot more in terms of, you know, spoken based on the reaction to the article that I wrote. I think that there's this this push pull with celebrity feminism, which is really problematic, which is it's a really particular type. And I think that it's not really recognizing. It's a really particular type and I think that it's not really recognizing I mean the entire feminist movement much like a lot of the civil rights movement was built on

The backs of regular people going like fuck you, right? And like we've always expected regular people to stand up for themselves when they're in I mean people have died for these causes They're in danger. I do not think it's too much to expect of Jennifer Lawrence to go the full step and say, and by the way, Amy Pascal, like fuck you if you're the person, and I don't know if she's the person responsible. I'm just saying, all change comes with great sacrifice by the people who are ultimately. And she's already a multi-millionaire.

So she'd afford to take a sacrifice. And if affecting her to go one step further for the readership of Lenny is I think not really expecting her to have. Maybe that gets to the heart of the problem here, which is like, I mean, in a way, the whole thing is like a big show. I mean, I was talking about this with Rembert Brown who was on it. I think it generally celebrity feminism or caught. Those are problematic things.

But it's like it's really good for the Lenny, for the Lenny letter to have this big bold statement from Jennifer Lawrence, but it's also just not, you don't want it to be too bold. Because then other people in the industry get mad at, Lena Dunham and they get mad at Jennifer Lawrence. And so it's like, there is this kind of theater to the whole thing where it's, everybody kind of knows. It's sort of like when we're dealing with

some sort of international crisis where there's a standoff with America and some other, or like what we're dealing with, like, it's theatrical, it's like, government shutdown, and it's always this thing where there's a standoff, you know, with America and some other, or like what we're dealing with like, uh, government shutdown. It's always this thing where it's like, oh, this is aired reaction is like Jennifer Lawrence epically burns men. And it's like, well, I mean, not really. Did she epically burn men? I mean, I don't, I don't, like, I'm- She epically burned the patriarchy. Yeah, that's actually that that that would be a better headline. Yeah. But you know, I mean, I do think she deserves Regenna for larters epic take down of the page

I wrote it about the hack I mean, I was really happy when the interview came out in vanity fair where she was like Laying blame to people and saying like this is actually a crime Like it's been laying blame to the but lame blame to the but she was really lame blame to like the public Which you got to like... Which is just a low level blame. We have created the perfect vehicles for voyeurism in social media, and in reality television, two of the most dominant forms of entertainment and information sharing that exists.

Maybe not reality TV, but reality TV is a very dominant form of entertainment And social media is like the dominant way that like people communicate now like the a Facebook or whatever And which are and like all of those and like all of those are voyeristic in nature and like we have like a real especially in America You know, obviously I don't live in any other countries, but I feel like we have this We are obsessed with this idea of looking into other people's private lives but yet completely ashamed of our's private lives, but yet completely ashamed of our own private lives and you know not really

comfortable with talking about them or dealing with them in any meaningful way. So I just think that you know it's not surprising that I've lost my trying to thought here. I mean I you for me, I think the reason I often feel the need to be somewhat contrarian in the face of, you know, I saw a bunch of people tweeting about it and saying, oh my god, this is so great. She's saying something. I agree. It is. But I'm a contrarian to the, just, just because I think it's always good to have at least one person go, hey, well, at least she, maybe she could have said something better.

So it's good to have one annoying person. She's so bothered about it. Yeah, like a minority voice. I mean, in a sea of like, yes, men, I think it's okay to be like the person who's like, well, this gets back to the haters saying, what you're saying. In a sea of people cheering, I mean,

I'm happy, I don't need you to cheer for that. You should cheer for Jennifer Lawrence. It's good that she's raised it, but I do think it's worth saying. And maybe don't have to, to feel that, right? You should cheer for Jennifer Lawrence. It's good that she's raised it, but I do think it's worth saying, and maybe we've spent too much time talking about this already, but anything's worth saying does it count if you're not willing to go the full step in a fit of blame? Oh, I think it counts.

I just think, I think it's a little, my reading is a little more subtle than that. I think it's, I don't live in a world where, just because I critique one thing that she says, I hate her or want her to, you know, like I feel like her statement is good, it's just not gone far enough, and I don't live in like some black or white reality

where I have to have a consistent opinion of her. You know, I think it's okay to allow her to let me down in one specific thing while I think everything else she's saying is fine. It's really a kind of shades of gray is where you're off-riding. Yeah, I live in gray. You live in gray.

I love gray. Let's take a break. I'm going to take a break here. And then we're going to come back and we're going to talk about Android Marshmallow and get your take on it. I know you're very excited about it. I want to talk about your phone. Okay, great.

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... ... ... Okay, we're back with Laura June, famed editor and writer, and also my wife and partner in life and good friend. In this life and the next one, which... What's your take on that? Is there going to be...

Do people get reincarnated? No. Do you think there was ever a point in your life where you thought heaven was a real thing? No. You don't have any, you don't have any. No, I don't think so. Where you were like, how long are you going to go to heaven? No, I think that actually that's kind of the thing

that informs my personality the most and always did is. I was always like, hmm, wow, wow. You always knew that people were just going to be taking a dirt nap and that was it. Yeah, I think so. Okay. I think there was some suspicion of that, my life. I don't think I ever have, I was raised Jewish and we don't,

there's not really, at least I don't know how other Jews operate, but in my home there was no talk of anything. There's something I would like to refer to as to Polsky Jewishness, which is like, well Jews don't do this. And it's like, yeah, only the Jews in your family. I don't like your tongue, I don't like your tongue. You want to tell me that Jews don't camp. And I, I think there are, I don't believe that it's in our nature

To go campaign. I don't really think that's a thing that you know how many Jewish construction workers You know, I know this is a woman the Verge of Santa He raised your your version. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just saying I don't know a lot of Jewish construction works I'm not saying they don't exist. I mean Jesus was a Jew, you know, he wasn't a construction worker Carpenter He rate rate he was a car he did some carpentry. I Think so yeah, yeah, no cuz that's like the long time since I was a pilot my boss is a Jewish carpenter. Oh, okay Okay, which is I should get that bumper sticker and any rate what were we talking about how do we get on the topic of Jews

You should become a Jewish carpenter. I'd be a very bad carpenter. I just did some, I just hung a Bolton board in your office and I think I did a very poor job. Still on the wall though, right? I've found you to be pretty handy actually. I'm great if you want me to build a PC but don't ask me to like put a shelf together.

Well, I can put a shelf together. Yeah, I've seen you seen a lot of projects. I'm really skilled with my hands. I'm an amazing woodworker. You just get mad about it. I do. I get easily frustrated getting back to the baby thing. I think my problem is that I have very little patience and I don't I always feel like

I just want to get it over with. Yeah, which is weird. Like computers, I don't feel that way. I mean, although like building a PC from scratch is different than. I feel like that didn't. Yeah, I feel like that. The things are made to go together in a PC from scratch is different than... I feel like that didn't, yeah. I feel like that's the last time I did that. The things you made to go together in a PC.

They're like, they all go together. When I built that lamp, for instance, the lamp in our... I built a lamp that hangs over our dining room table. That was, there was a system. It made sense. Right, there were pieces that fit together. Anyhow, how do we get on this topic? We started in on something, oh, the afterlife.

I was saying that I was in my house, there was never any conversation about heaven, there was no talk about it. No, we didn't, I was throwing up, we didn't talk about heaven. We were raised Catholic. I was. And heaven's like a big part of Catholicism.

I mean, it is definitely like a thing that heaven and hell are things. I mean, they exist, for sure. They're definitely mentioned. Right. You know, my experience of Catholicism to the extent that I experienced it was, I went to Catholic school for a year,

first grade, which I remember very well. And it was very like impressive to me because I went to church every morning and the church was attached to the building. I went to school as a very tiny school. And then I went to regular public school and we moved, but we still went to church every weekend. Right.

So I had a first communion and then a confirmation. I never really, yeah, it wasn't like a, it was like something that I had to do. It was just like a pain in the ass. You never bought in, you never bought into the, I don't think so. I mean, I enjoyed being in like churches. I still kind of do, if I have to go for a wedding

or a funeral, I like the architecture. I remember even as like a really small child like looking around because a lot of churches are very beautiful. I find that generally like houses of worship are very interesting. Yeah, I mean. Because I'm interested in like the historical,

a lot of them are old. A lot of churches are very interesting. Yeah, I mean. Because I'm interested in like the historical, a lot of them are old. A lot of her just are very like modern and stuff. So they're interesting to me as like things and places and I like ritual, but I'm not like listing to the content. The content a lot of the time is very, it's kind of funny. We went to a bar mitzvah recently and the UNI.

Yeah. And there was a lot of the rabbi got very political. Oh, he did. That's right. I was very political, which I thought was very inappropriate for Barmat's, you know, was like, it was like today you become a man and let's not forget about the men, women, and children in Israel who are under attack right now. It's like, wait a second.

Well, let's stick. Let's stay on the you become a man part of this. I don't know. I thought it was just like a little uncomfortable. It's like, it's like, it's part for the course in a, in a, in a house of worship. Not into organized religion. I mean, it just believe in in yourself.

Okay. Yeah. Like, like John Lennon said, did he say that? He said, I don't believe in the Beatles. I just believe in me. Really? I think he said that. I mean, he was also could have said it really. It sounds like something he would say. I mean, certainly wasn could have said it really? It sounds like something he would say.

I mean, certainly wasn't Ringo. I hear Yoko Ono revealed that he was bisexual recently. Did you hear that? I mean, that's like the least surprising revelation I've ever heard of. I just feel like if you're like Mick Jagger or John Lennon, like, you're going to try a little bit of everything. What just happened? A bird.

I think it was a dove. Yeah. We're sitting in kind of a... Flew up to the window and just like hovered in front of the window. Let me hold on, let me. I thought he was gonna hit the window, but then he didn't. Let me set the scene for a second.

We're in our bedroom in the nude in bed. He said this the last time I was on. We're in extra nude today. We're just down to the skeletons. And, but our bedroom has two walls, which are like mostly window. And so you you see and we're surrounded by nature beautiful unjolating Verdant nature forest forest and

And so you do tend to see some critters here. I think which is the technical term for animals in the forest We just saw bird now the last time we did a podcast We were talking about chipmunks that were scurrying by but I haven't seen a chip monk Come by I think they're I think they're getting ready for they're packing up. Yeah, they're getting ready for the winter season and and I saw a chip monk going by You know, he was wearing a Patagonia vest and was carrying a very sophisticated looking duffle bag So anyhow, it's a real adventure here. It's a real adventure and you get to know the animals. But anyhow, let's get back to my birthday. And time, oh you said you weren't talking about my phone.

Was that a joke? I was kidding. What kind of phone do you have? I'm serious. I have an iPhone to success. You know that I've been using an iPhone to success. No, I don't know that. You know I bought one.

You know that I bought it. I don't remember that. My thing is I like to buy. Oh, I do remember that, okay. I like to buy the latest iPhone and then do nothing but complain about it thing is I like to buy. Oh, I do remember that. I like to buy the latest iPhone and then do nothing but complain about it. What I like to do is, and I've been doing it successfully for about a week, is about five, six times a day,

the phone tells me it wants to update the software. And I hit remind me later, and it says, like remind me later today, or tonight, or tomorrow later. Don't do that. Yes, the phone does it. I don't remember it having like a- And I just keep not allowing it to update.

I don't know why. That does it on, you're sure you're going to think software updates on your computer? Yeah, I'm positive. I don't have any recollection of it giving you an option to remind you of when to update. I think it's new. It's not a feature that I've noticed before.

It might be an iOS 9. I mean, it's possible. I mean, phones are over. I mean, phones are over. I mean, this is the thing I want to let everybody know. Like, when I read articles about phones, I mean, the idea of like, phones being special is really where way beyond that at this point. You know, like, everybody has a phone,

every phone does about the same thing. The cameras are all pretty good now. The phone advancement is, there's nothing happening there. And Apple is a testament to what's they've released. You think the same thing is true of computers? Oh, I think computers have an advanced There's nothing happening there. And Apple is a testament to what they release. They think the same thing is true of computers. Oh, I think computers have an advanced and functionality or features for 10, 20 years.

They've been about the same. Very, very. I mean, think about how long OS 10 has been in existence. And the versions of it they keep introducing, they're refined, they're better, they look cleaner, they change the font. The faster, the better life is better. Overall, yes, overall, they're in very incremental changes.

But what's really changed is that our internet is faster. The internet changes more than anything, and what you do, and how things connect on the internet is what's changing. I think in terms of technological innovation, I'm not saying we've plateaued, I just think we went through an explosion of innovation over the last decade. I mean, look, the iPhone didn't do this. Do you think though that it's partially that our, I mean, I say this as a person who, you know, I'm not like an enthusiast of your level, but I think I'm, you know, I'm like technologically

savvy enough. You're very savvy. Do you think that it's, your interests are interests is flagging to? Well, I think there's something about getting comfortable with, you know, I think that when the TV was first introduced, people were glued to their televisions. They didn't know what was going on. It was like a constant, just like,

stream of insanity for them. They like couldn't get enough of television. And I think after a few years of living with television or a decade of television, or 40 years, they were like, whoa. People are still, people still love TV, but they're not like, oh my God, it's not like this magical device.

And I do think there's something about it. I think that's true of like, I remember like my grandparents were the kind of people who would have kind of have the TV on all day. Yeah, I just think that I just think our relationship. And I really think we don't do that, right? Like I think our relationship with devices are changing really rapidly because like there's a lot

of bad things that we, there's a lot of bad habits that we started having with phones and tablets that we're now starting to come out of a haze, I feel like, and we're like, oh, this thing does these things really well for me, and then there's a bunch of other things that I don't need to do with it. Or like, is it, they're not important to me.

That's why I think you see, naturally, in technology, there's always this winnowing, there's this like whittling down of options. You go from, oh wow, there's all these Twitter-like services, like, Plurk, I love talking about Plurk. Merriplurk? Yeah, yeah, it was like Twitter, but it went sideways Yeah, I remember really well about plurk I think it's still very popular in some countries maybe I don't know

But there were all these different things that were like Twitter But then it was like Twitter was the ones that was gonna make it there were all these different social networks And then it turned out like Facebook was the one we were gonna we're gonna decide on there's all these like chat apps Now there's all these messaging apps at some point those are gonna come apps. At some point, those are going to become very streamlined. I think it's not just going to be like 100 different options. I mean, this is kind of sad to say, but it's true in that there were all sorts of competitors for video game systems, and then eventually it was just about

Sega and Nintendo, and then eventually that gave way to Sony and Microsoft. And you don't tend to get, you know, and like, look Nintendo makes a Wii U, but really don't sell it many of them and not the many people care. There's just things people decide on where we're going, and I think like with phones, you saw this,

like, oh, maybe the palm was gonna be in there, and maybe Microsoft was getting, you know, Microsoft's still making phones, but nobody's buying them. But that was an exciting time. It was really interesting, and exciting, and by the way, had that time continued,

had we been able to keep trying out new things, but the reality is like, we got fixed on some basic ideas about how these things are supposed to operate, and until there's that next moment of, I mean, I think VR could be that moment. I think that what's going on, I really don't know if it will. I think what's going on in transportation

could be that next moment where it's like, oh wow, like we figured out better ways to move people around, and we figured out better ways to deal with like roads and you know, systems for transportation. Right, like you and I talk about this all the time, like if you look at a car from 1920 and a car from now, they function exactly the same. People don't really rethought that. They're identical. They're basically identical. I mean 1920 is pretty extreme, but

yeah, I mean cars are exactly the same. We've added some things that are really great. Like in my car, I've got, you have a yours too, that whatever the thing is, the blind spot assist, where it'll like flash when there's something that's in your blind spot. That's actually really helpful I mean sometimes it's sort of panic inducing for no reason But like those little things they're very incremental when cars start driving themselves for real That's a huge change right when like you literally can set your destination and not have to pay attention That'll be a really big change. It'll change how grids the grid system works for cities It'll change how road grid system works for cities.

It'll change how roadways work between states. And I mean, it'll be a huge monumental change. I think those are really interesting technological events. Yeah, I just feel like I feel like there's this business slow burn of, you know, every so often you see this article that's like, I don't look at Twitter on the weekends or I don't look at my phone when I'm with my kids.

No, it's like, yeah, etiquette. They're etiquette articles. It's not just etiquette, but it's this idea that you need to unplug. Well, I think that's... I actually feel like that was kind of true for a very short period, but now I feel like it's very easy to walk away from all of these things that are like, you know, I can't be away from Instagram for an hour. It's like no one feels that way.

Well, those are things you look at two or three times a day. I do think, look, I mean, there are lots of people who are, look at Snapchat obsessively and look at Instagram obsessively. But I also think like more and more people are, you know, there's seven people. No, I think there's a lot of people, but I think that increasingly there's a lot of people

who are also going like, oh, I know when I need to or I don't need to look at certain things Or like I know what notifications are really important and which ones I can just turn off right and like I just think that generally speaking There's a better etiquette forming around those devices and you're starting to figure out Oh, I really need this for Uber, but I don't really need it for like you know like I turn off my periscope notifications Because they're not really adding anything. It's just like additional distraction and noise from those parts, you know? No, what periscope is.

Yeah, you do. Periscope is the live streaming, video live streaming service, the Twitter bot. Oh yeah, I don't know what you got. I don't use that. You remember my account? Yes, I actually remember my account better than I remember periscope.

Well, my account had its moment. It was about for two weeks before they introduced periscope. Everybody was my account. And then Twitter introduced periscope and everybody was Miracadding, and then Twitter introduced Periscope in that basically. No, do people use Periscope? I see people using Periscope. I don't often look at them because I'm very busy. I don't have time to look at somebody's live stream. It's got to be something really good. You've got to be... You know, I feel like live streaming is this concept that we snagged on to very early in the internet and like I know you're saying like People are sort of naturally voyeuristic, but I mean I

Think they're voyeuristic when it's edited well. I think we've come to expect better like I don't know I've you know would definitely prefer to see the highlights real I do not want to watch someone walking to work I think that's I think you're right about that. I think there are certainly like Casey Neistat, we were just talking about him, us privately, but I think his like daily vlogs are a really good voyeuristic experience that's like really beautifully

edited and shot because that's what he does. You know, but then on the other hand, you look at PewDiePie, which is literally somebody who's just playing video games and talking. Well, that's a whole different culture. It's like a Twitch experience. But I mean, like, so I think that, I mean, Twitch is obviously massive and people do like, although I think watching a video game is a really different experience than just watching

a person or watching like, what somebody else is watching. I enjoy watching people play video games. Speaking of video games. Okay. Let me say where. I want to talk about until games. Speaking of video games. Let me say why. I want to talk about until dawn a little bit. Okay. Now, you don't know this because you went to sleep last night.

I was playing until dawn. Oh, nearly until dawn. Are you kidding? No, I was playing it for that long. But I did stay up and play it a bit. And I have to say that game got very good. Now, for listeners of tomorrow, you may not know what until dawn is, let me tell you, it's a game for the PlayStation 4

Video game console which is set it's only on the PlayStation 4 I believe Anyhow until Don is basically it's like a bad It's like torture porn like saw slash teen movie Horror movie it's like these kids are up at a cabin and somebody's killing them. And you play as all the different characters. And it has this, what it calls a butterfly effect. I think they had a license that from the Ashton Kutcher movie.

And like everything you do in the game affects other stuff that happens in the game. At least that's what they tell you. It's hard to see the connections, but they claim that that is the way it's played. Right, but like there would be no way to test that. Well, actually they show you like this thing happens so this thing happens Okay, okay, so they do show you some of the at any rate It's a really engrossing interesting game because it's part a lot of it is like you're kind of watching stuff

But then part of it is like you're playing it's very resident evil style like original resident evil style But it's also like very scary and I have to say like I haven't played a game this scary in a long time I mean it it legitimately, it's very dark where we live at night. And I went outside last night to get something. I had to cross the driveway. No, I had to take a call. So now that I just couldn't remember what I did. But I had to cross the driveway in the dark.

And I have to say, I felt like I was in danger. I felt like I was really in danger. But no, the game's good. I have to, I recommend like I was in danger. I felt like I was really in danger. But no, the game's good. I recommend it. If you're a person who's interested in, there's plenty of time. I say we're kind of under the gun here

because our daughter Zelda is at school right now. And we have to pick her up in, we feel really going about 15 minutes, which should give us just enough time to put a kind of tail end of this podcast together, I think. To continue talking about the game for a minute. I think that it's very good until dawn. I don't really anything to say except that I,

it made me very scared, very worried about my wellbeing. I've been having a lot of bad dreams and I think they're related to the game. I think that's probably true. I mean, I find my dreams are often, you know, a direct reflection of like whatever reading before I could have been. Another hand life is kind of a horror all by itself. I mean, for instance, if you watch

the Democratic debate the other night, you would know, you would know what kind of horror we're living through. No, actually, the Democratic debate. Can we talk about that for a second? Sure. I was surprised. I think the biggest takeaway was how civil and normal all of the Democrats seem by comparison. I'm boring. Very boring, particularly that Lincoln Chafee, is that his name? But Jim Webb, he talked about killing a guy. He talked about killing a guy.

Yeah, he seems not human. I like him. I like his style. Martin O'Malley, he's seen. Oh, he's the one who, yeah, that's the one style. Martin O'Malley. He's seen. Oh, he's the one who yeah, that's the one style. He Martin O'Malley is an interesting candidate. He will at any given moment at any opportunity mentioned green green green mentioned grid the grid and green 100% electric grid is what

he said. He's extremely excited about getting America on a 100 100% electric. I mean, to be fair is probably the most important thing domestically, but well, I mean, it's also the least like no one gives a shit. The more money we can invest in, the more we can invest in renewable energy in non-planet destroying energy and the more we can get ourselves off of any type of fossil fuel, the better off we're all in. Well, that's what you're talking about for security reasons, right?

No, I'm just saying that for like global good life reasons, I mean, for America, I think. For environmental reasons. Yeah, and for environmental reasons. It is not that important. Well, I mean, we're not gonna fix what we've, we're not gonna fix the planet. Where we're doing.

No, I mean, it is arguably a good thing, but it's not like all it's cracked up to be. The most important thing we can do for the environment is to stop eating animals. Wow, controversial, very hot. I don't think it's controversial. I think it's actually like one of those things, unfortunately, that's totally understood, but it's very much like the fossil fuels thing. The vein is open. Now it's... Well, you wrote an article about this when we were at the verge. Yeah.

And I interviewed a guy who had presented to the United Nations. He was a very famous scientist and he wrote with a partner, a paper about this, where he basically said, the most important thing we can do is advertise aggressively non-meat products to children because the only chance we have of stopping the

environmental devastation, he was he argued that fossil fuels were like who gives a shit like doesn't matter. They argued that that it was the animals and he's actually died and he's no longer alive. Ironically he died choking on a bone of an animal. No he didn't. I know that's a joke. No, he was a vegetarian. But not eating animals is one of the hot button topics that exist in the world now that more so than so many other things you could discuss. Any really almost anything, guns would be up there.

Vegetarianism or at least not eating meat would be up there. I think vegetarianism is on the same level as religion. I actually think I would, I would actually argue that people are less, get less violently upset if you talk about and disagree with their religion. Yeah. Then they do. If you talk about disagreeing with the fact that they meet or that people shouldn't even just suggest and people shouldn't eat meat in the same way that like people get when you suggest that guns are bad and we should have less of them. Well, there is something about like there's a cold dead hand situation with meat in the

same way there is. I think there's an understandable reason for that. I think that what you eat is sort of an attacking what other people eat. I have found as a vegetarian for the last 10, almost 10 years that, and I was on and off as a teenager and as a young adult, I have found that even my existence as a vegetarian has sort of, even if I don't talk about it, which I do if fast. If I say to someone, if I'm we're out to eat

and they're like, oh, we'll get this fiery beef nacho app and I'll be like, oh, I don't eat meat. I have found that the right kind of person will find just that to be challenging to them. They're like, then they gotta like, they gotta like talk oh, I don't eat meat. I have found that the right kind of person will find just that to be challenging to them. No, they're like, then they gotta like, they gotta like talk about how they're gonna eat a bunch more meat. Or that I'm judging them just by my existence.

And I think that the reason that that is, I think there's a really cultural, emotional attachment people have to what they eat. I think that more importantly than how they're what religion they're raised in or whatever. It's like we have really emotional feelings about and I have struggled with it as I became a vegetarian. Like I have all of my mom's old recipes and cooking if you like to cook becomes much harder and different if you're a vegetarian. So it limits and changes what you

can eat. And I just think that people have a really hard time grasping that concept. Well, I think that also it a really hard time grasping that concept. Well, I think that also it's seen. And they feel under attack. Well, I think also deep down there is a sense that everybody knows that it's really fucked up. I mean, listen, I like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, parts in parenting books where they say, oh, you need to teach your children about being gentle to animals and not killing things. But at the same time, there's this weird paradox where all children love animals so much, but they're

always just going to come that time where they go, like, what am I eating? No, I think. And that's kind of like a weird fucked up thing. And that was in my piece. Like that never set that well with me. When I was like five or six, I was very upset by it. And it stuck with me. I think it's, I mean, I think, I feel like we were just talking about this as somebody,

but I think it's basically child abuse. And I'm happy to say it to anybody who will listen. I think it's basically child abuse to have your child eat meat before they understand what it is they're putting into it. I mean, when you think about it, when you actually think about it, literally everything that we give kids, everything has an animal on it. Everything we put in the room has an animal on it. It's like all about like, cuddly like the monkeys and the horses and everything's about

like, we take it to petting zoos and pet the animals and everything about a child's life at least like in popular sort of I mean, I definitely feel like it's it's kind of all the cartoons the heartbreaking all the cartoons are animals all that you know And then you're like how everybody on everybody on Sesame Street It's like big birds a bird and is I mean, I don't know what Oscar is but he's some It's a grouch. No, but then and then you're like oh honey by the way you're eating big bird And it's like I think that is a totally really fucked up insane thing to do to kids. Of course, I also think it's like, you should, you know, I also think it's basically

shout-out abuse to like, for your kid to pray to some sort of God in a religion before they understand, before like, I mean, it's just not necessary. You think your parents abuse you? No, because they didn't make me pray to a God because the concept of God was very loose in my house. It was like, what's God? Nothing, everything. It's like, okay, then I don't, it's like maybe God is not meaningful. Right. Did you go to Hebrew school? I went to Hebrew school a little bit. I think I was pretty bad.

I think I made a lot of enemies at Hebrew school. I think that there were a lot of Hebrew school teachers who didn't like They didn't like my strut. They didn't like the way I walked in there and just I can't imagine people just drop Just drop science on everybody. I was just like here's the deal everybody God is dead and then I'm like then I pieced I left the room And I like you can't do that. This is a class you need to come in here and learn but at any rate, you know I don't I went to Hebrew school. I learned a little bit of Hebrew That's not important, okay? You can't put me in a box, okay? Just because I went to Hebrew school. It doesn't mean that I am... Well, no, you were saying that you think I was a bit...

Oh, yeah, I was a bit... I was definitely abused. I mean, it was actually messed up because the school, I did go to when I was in elementary school a couple of years of like a Jewish school. And like, you know, academically, I was doing really well, but in like my, this is actually really something that's true

and personal and interesting that I don't think about that often. But academic, I was doing really well, but I wasn't doing that well in my like Hebrew studies. And they actually, you mean the language? No, like yeah, the language and maybe also stuff about the Torah, I don't remember. But I know that like I wasn't allowed to go

to some like cool, like after school thing for kids who were excelling in their academics because I wasn't doing well in my abilities. Because you weren't excelling in their academics, because I wasn't doing well in my abilities. Because you weren't excelling in language. No, it's not a dead language, but it's not dead. No, it's pretty lively, but the point is, it's like it doesn't matter.

Like if you can do math really well, you don't also need to be able to speak Hebrew. Like there's no correlation between those things. Well, I mean, if you're going to a French school and then the requirement will be that you have to speak French. I mean, yeah, I guess I guess but it's pretty standard, but I was only learning it because I could like read the Torah better. I don't really know. Whatever. This is why I got out of religion and I'm never getting back in.

Well, personally, I think there's a lot of value in learning foreign languages. I will say that when there was just recently some bad turbulence on a plane, I was like, I'm feeling like I'm just kind of like, if there's a god, just like whatever, whatever could fix this right now. I mean, I don't believe that God has anything to do with planes because- Play bargain whenever you think the plane is going to sound.

No, I guess that's what proved to me that you exist by not killing me. So I will continue to believe you don't exist. It's so exactly right. No, I just think it's one of those things where you just sort of get desperate. But you're like, well, maybe there's a god. I don't exist. It's so exactly right. No, I just think it's one of those things where you just sort of get desperate, but you're like, well, maybe there's a good one. I don't even get desperate in that moment,

not because I'm like really hardcore, but maybe because I like value my life less. Maybe. But when I think about my beautiful daughter and wife and how I just want to get home to see them in one piece and don't want to have to have a closed casket funeral, you know, I start bargaining with whoever's available. I can't blame me.

You can yell, I'm like, yeah. Sorry, you don't love your family as much as I do. All right, well, I think that's it for the podcast. It's quarter after. We should probably wrap this up. Yeah, okay, we have to pick up Zelda. You guys aren't going to be involved in that. We're going to go have a blast with her,

because she's a lot of fun to hang out with. And that's, that's it. Laura, anything any final thoughts? Any parting, parting words? No. Magnus will, my producer who's Swedish will, I'm sure, make something of this podcast. Okay, well thanks for doing this with me. I really enjoyed it. I think this is a great, this is a great sort of dark birthday podcast. Well, that's our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow. But until then, I wish you and your family the very best.

Your family who is planning a tremendous surprise birthday party for you. Lots of gifts, lots of your nearest and dearest friends. Except one of the people isn't your friend. One of the people is there to hurt you. you