Tomorrow - Episode 34: Gerry Duggan Is Tomorrow's Man Of The Year

Episode Date: December 6, 2015

Currently working on a couple of small titles like Chewbacca, Deadpool, and the Uncanny Avengers, writer Gerry Duggan gives Josh a front row view into the inner workings of the comic book world. Besides the highly charged conversation over Doomsday, spoilers, and how movie making and comics do (or don't) intersect, the two go deep on a wide range of topics. You'll learn about what it's like to write for P. Diddy at an awards show, how wandering the streets of LA can land you a dream job, and what Gerry and Josh think of the upcoming presidential election (SPOILER ALERT BERNIE SANDERS BECOMES SUPER GOD OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE). We've done a lot of these, and we can promise you that this is one of the best. Do. Not. Miss. It. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

[♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hey, and welcome to Tomorrow on Your Host Josh with Topolsky. Today on the show, we discuss Shaving Chubaka, Puff Daddy, and President Bernie Sanders. But first, a word from our sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the easiest way to create a beautiful website, blog, or online store for you and your ideas. Squarespace features an elegant interface, beautiful templates, and incredible 24.7 customer support. Start building your

website today at squarespace.com and our offer code Joshua checkout to get 10% off. Squarespace, build a beautiful. This episode is also brought to you by Wealthfront. Wealthfront is a low cost automated investment service that makes it easy to invest your money the right way. It works 24-7 in a manager portfolio, keeping it diversified, customized to your risk profile, and optimizing its trading behavior to keep your tax bill low, all without ever charging commissions. Whether you've got millions or you're just starting out, Wealthfront is the most sophisticated

way to invest your money. To sign up and get your free personalized investment portfolio, go to wealthfront.com slash tomorrow. Here. Here. My guest today is somebody I've wanted to have on this podcast. For a long time, somebody I've wanted to talk to for a long time. He's a writer.

He is, I would say, primarily a comic writer, but has done a bunch of other stuff and is a very interesting dude. My guest is Jerry Duggan. Jerry, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. I've wanted to get out of the house and talk to you for a long time as well. You're in beautiful, right now beautiful, sunny, Los Angeles. I'm in Cologne and Cray, New York. I'm in the marijuana district of the Melrose area. Really? What does that mean?

Can you tell me what that means? I'm like you are not a stoner, Jerry. No, no, no, no. Well, I have no time. You know, let's go for five o'clock somewhere. But look, this neighborhood, the Melrose Avenue, was this is where my Los Angeles secret origin happened. I came out here without a car and had one month rent in cash.

I walked up and down Melrose looking for a job. And I found a comic shop. And so that was, I didn't even like, did you not even like comics before that? No, I loved comics. I'm a bit of your like, I literally hated comics, but then that was the only job I could get. It was the only for one year later.

I'm now a professional comic writer. That's how you do it. So you literally have one of those LA stories where you lived out of your car. I mean, almost I had a buddy who had rang me and said he wasn't going to make, I think it was September's rent and this was the end of July. So he knew that he had messed up enough in advance that he was putting up the warning flags. And so I said, oh, come out there. I'll pay for September's rent.

Where were you, where were you talking from? New Jersey. Okay. And so it was easier for me to be poor out in LA than commute to New York and look for gigs and writing and everything. What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this?

What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? What year was this? That's cool. That's a cool job actually. I used to lie to people at bars in New York when I first moved here. I kind of didn't have a job. I was my brother and I were like building a studio, but a music studio. I used to, whenever I meet a girl in a bar and she, oh, for a short period of time, I did data entry at Yamaha. I was like putting all of their instruments, all of their different music instruments into a spreadsheet.

This is how this lie started. I now remember. Sorry. How to make music terrible. I don't know if he'd take a spreadsheet. Yeah, I know really. I was like, I was like, I was a really good to color code in the spreadsheet by type of instrument. Because Yamaha makes a lot of instruments,

but anyhow, but I started the lie by saying, I work at Yamaha in the city and people go, like, oh, what do you do there? And I thought, oh, they don't know what I do. And Yamaha makes 1,000 different things, including motorcycles. And they did it that time. I don't know if they still do.

So I used to tell people that I tested Yamaha's dirt bikes. They had a track in a building in Midtown where we tested dirt bikes. Like new models. And nine times out of 10 people believe me. That's fantastic. It just made me seem a lot cooler than I was. Yeah, but that's, look, that's making, you know, coming up with that lie is cooler than

any stranger in the entire life. And that's how I became a journalist, really. So I had time people, I had read motorcycles at Yamaha. Anyhow, so you moved out in 1998. Now, but wasn't New York the place to be if you're if you're a comics dude? Am I wrong about that? Especially at the 90s? At that time, I wasn't really a into I wasn't in comic books. I had to look, I had always wanted to do it, but I sort of came out here thinking like, I'm going to write some screen plays, see what I can make happen. Oh. And so when I got out here, and look, I was writing, I was working really hard,

but you know, it was very like, you know, it was like the caveman version of it, I didn't have a car. So I got a job at Golden Apple Comics thinking that I was like, okay, this is job A. I'll use it to get job B. Job C might help me to get job C. But the Golden Apple was everyone in the world in the entertainment industry was coming into an out of Golden Apple. So yeah, like that's where I met so many of my friends and through, you know, Brian Poussain or Pat and Oswald or David Mandel or all these writers and performers. I just, we were talking comics and then when Brian and Patent went off to do a comedy central show that was set in a comic book store, they asked me to make it look like a real comic shop. And so that was that was my entry in the game.

Well, what was that shit about? Production gigs. It was called Super Nerds. And those two were in a, it was directed by Bob, Bob Odin, Kirk directed it. What year was this? This was, you know, I think it's amazing. It was a little bit. It was a little bit of a picture. It was a little bit of a picture. It was a little bit of a picture.

It was a little bit of a picture. It was a little bit of a picture. It was a little bit of a picture. It was a little bit of a picture. It was a little bit of a picture. It was a little bit of a picture. It was a little bit of a picture. It was a little bit of a picture. It was a little bit of a picture. I'm showing my age now, but this might have been 99 or two. Yeah, but super nerds is like, was the show. That way, they had their time, had they picked that up? Yes, 100% it was ahead of, it's ahead of its time.

They were putting it up on, they had a theater, it was the HBO comedy workspace or comedy central workspace. In any case, they had sort of written some sketches about them in the comic shop and then it became the pilot. The pilot just didn't go. See, that's really interesting. I mean, the world has changed dramatically. I was actually, I want to talk about this.

Maybe we can just talk about it now. I was going to say, how did you get started? How does one get started in this? You would think that, I think a lot of comic writers, my assumption is, and I don't know, because I haven't spoken to that many, that they are like lifelong comic book, I don't know what I'm saying that you're not, lifelong comic book nerds,

and they are actively constantly pursuing the craft of writing for comics, and then they somehow managed to make that happen. You were not thinking that was going to be, I'm going to be a comic writer. I wanted to, I wanted to write. And I found that I quickly had a lot more traction writing comic books than I did writing TV. You know, the TV in the film business was a lot different than to. And think about how limited you were.

I mean, because now you can't just give somebody a superpower and then expect it to be. I'm assuming that everything you wrote, by the way, I'm like, in my mind, it's like you wrote writing a sitcom sitcom. Yeah. And then everybody had, everybody had fantastic superpowers in it as well. Is that kind of writing you were doing? Well, here's the thing. It was, It was creator, so it was making comics. No one was going to hire me to write Wolverine out of the gate. You just go make comic books. The easiest way into comics is to make comics.

So you find friends that can do things that you can't. In my case, I needed someone to do everything, because I didn't draw, I didn't color, I couldn't even letter. But I could write. And so I ended up, I met a buddy Rick Remender who was selling his own comics at a table at San Diego Comic Con, and no one was around the table. So I went over and I started talking to him.

It was, you know, they were writing comedy, which, not a lot of other books were doing at the time. But we ended up with exchanged information. And then from that, I started making Creator on Comics. It was the first one was about Santa Claus after the apocalypse, the true story of Santa Claus after the apocalypse, which we're almost caught up to. And then the next one, we're very close to the apocalypse, is that what you're saying? Yeah, yeah. This is it. Yeah. And we know that Santa will be the only thing left between us and utter destruction. Or is he the destructor? I don't have a rep this kind of. No, Santa,

you want, I think, to, you know, bring his bag of ass kick to get you out of some jams. Because the truth is underneath that suit, he's just a ripped, strapping, ripped guy. But underneath the suit and then the layers of cookies. I got to read it. What is this comic called? There's a comic called. The last Christmas. Can you, can it be had? Could I go buy it? It can. Yeah, it's an image comic.

So that was at least that, then that gave me something to show to an editor to go look nobody has to say yes to me. I've already been doing this myself. And then I think my next comic was helped sort of solidify at least that you would have to threaten to take me seriously. It was about the Odyssey after a war in Syria and a near future thing that was wonderfully illustrated by Phil Noto. What was that?

Superstar now. It's called the Infinite Horizon. Okay. And then from that, now you have samples. Yeah. Then it's like you're off to the races. Oh, boom. But to me, it's interesting because this evolution, I mean, what you're describing in that

comic store in LA is so perfectly illustrates how crazy our reality is now compared to what, let's say, 20 years ago. One was that. You said, 98, 99 year out there. Oh, yeah. So this was like the early 2000s of, and being the guy that answered the phone at the comic shop and then saying, hey, it's so andand-so from, you know, ex-production company, I need 12 copies of Constantine, you know, and you're like, oh, I guess that's coming up.

Yeah. And then 25 years later, it got developed into a show. But it's interesting to think about, like, nerd culture for lack of a better way to describe it or geek culture. I don't know if you prefer either or you don't like them, but it's like the dominant culture, basically. Pop culture. I mean, I mean, overwhelmingly,

the most popular movies, the most popular TV shows, what, I mean, what people are talking about on the internet so often, it is like, stuff that when I was a kid, and I was a fairly nerdy kid, I mean, I was not cool, I guess, like really not cool, and nothing I was interested in was considered cool by anybody's standards.

My assumption to another not cool kid too. Yeah, and my assumption is for a lot of, I mean, to me to see it, I think A.O. Scott wrote something about this, about sort of how the nerds of one, and a lot, and yet like they're sort of a failure to recognize it and a lot of the viewers. Yeah, I don't feel like, I mean I do feel like we were a part of a subculture that sort of now is the dominant, you know, we fell into our own back to the future to sort of future, like oh my god, we won.

Look at this, the casino is a spider-man casino, you know? But is that we need? I don't know actually, I mean here's the thing, I worry all the time that you know the bubble could burst and that look the one thing I miss and I truly miss this and this is no knock on on the superhero supremacy we'll call it. But, you know, I do miss studios making films like that were just not supposed to be 15 movies. Like, what I love, I love Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang from Shane Black. And like, I feel like that was a miracle when it was made

that anyone made a movie that was not supposed to be a theme, you know, like a big... It was like franchise. Like a movie. A movie. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe there are places like Netflix that are sort of filling the void a little bit,

and that as the business is change, you know, that stuff will come back. TV is certainly in a golden age, but yeah, for movies now, you just do feel like the only things that are getting certainly big studio support are, you know, big, big sweeping effects. Right. Shared universes. Well, the shared universe stuff is, to me, it's like daunting. And also, I feel in some way limiting to some of these projects. Like it's so they seem so reliant on referencing one another. Yes. And connecting.

It's almost like listen, make the most expensive television show ever. That's what you should do. Like because to me TV, TV storytelling is so much of a more appropriate art form for, I mean, comics are the way these stories are told, like it's issue after issue after issue, it never stops, it literally never stops.

Like one of the beauties, one of the things I always thought was the greatest thing about comic book storytelling. And I thought this is a kid and I still think it as an adult is like this story, this character, these people, like they never have to die. Like it never has to go away. It's not necessarily dependent on like somebody's budget or the whims of what is popular or whatever. These are characters that are traded and tweaked and reimagined and have stories told around them forever and ever.

I never want the party to end. When I would hang out with my friends, I was always like, sleep over. You know, like I didn't want to not just like keep having a good time. And I think that like, I think the comics are like that. And it's like movies don't really do that. Right, you know?

Yeah, I never dreamed that the comics that I loved would become movies because the comics were enough. You know, I had a cliffhanger and then I knew that on the third Wednesday, when I ran down there, back then I think it was even Monday or Tuesday when I was buying comics off a rack that, you know, there would be a big splash page that would sort of solve the cliffhanger that I've been thinking about for a month. And, you know, serialized entertainment, yeah, is a little bit different than coming up with, you know, a 90 minute movie that has to set up two other movies.

I mean, it hasn't, and it hasn't in a way, and I'm just, I'm really curious to hear your take on this, but I mean, when I watch the Avengers movies, I feel like the complexity of, I mean, the S-trip, the X-Men films, I mean, for all of the biggest franchises, I feel like the complexity of these characters and their stories, I mean, maybe this goes that only sort of work on a comics page. Sometimes the thing that it's the best thing about comics is what happens between the panels. You know, we are imagination fills in that gap and that is not, you know, a function of the films. Right. But there's also the deep storytelling. I feel like I watch the Avengers movies and they're like trying to compact some complex origin story into like a 10 minute aside in the grand scheme of this of this like action what is an action movie like here's an example

Have you seen the new Batman Superman Batman or Superman trailer? Yes, so one of them. Yeah, the unmasking right the oh you haven't seen the extended one No, I don't think I have, you haven't seen the extended one? No, I don't think I have. Are you familiar with the film at all? A little bit. Are you allowed, can you talk about it? Are you working on anything that would

it make it prevent you from talking about the film? No, I mean, look, what's the right way to say this? There is no right way. No, yeah, I guess, you know, it's not really my vision of what I would hope that that would be, but like, that's a knee jerk reaction to an aesthetic. Like, I hope that it's good. I want it to be good. You know, my son is sick, but, you know, I couldn't take him to the last Superman movie. Oh, my God. The last time I remember it was so violent. My son is six, but I couldn't take him to the last Superman movie.

Oh my God. The last time I remember it was so violent. Yeah, so I mean, like that. And maybe also it's just that I'm, you know, I'm getting, I'm aging, which is, you know, sure beats the alternative, but like, you know, I'm getting a little older and, yeah, or dying. Oh, yeah, I guess that's the, that's one alternative. But, you know, I do, yeah, as a father,

you're just sort of a, it's a weird conversation to have with your kid about why he's not gonna see a Superman movie. Well, it's also, but it's also a bummer to me that, you're familiar with Doomsday, right, the character? Yeah, yeah. So Doomsday, I'm sorry, I'm gonna spoil, can I spoil this, is in the trailer? I just spoil this So Doomsday, I'm sorry, I'm gonna spoil it. Can I spoil this?

This is in the trailer. I just spoiled the story. I mean, if you've got him, I'm seeing him. I remember, yeah, we'll go back in the movie. Doomsday is in the movie. Doomsday is in the movie. Doomsday has the most, in my opinion, I was just talking to my wife about this last night.

I was actually bitching about the trailer and how upset I am. I'm not that big of a comic book nerd, by the way, but I know enough to be dangerous. And I know that Doomsday origin story, which to me is like one of the coolest, it's one of the most fascinating awesome ideas that I've ever seen come out of like the comic book sphere

in terms of like, where does this character come from? There's always like a story. That one to me is like, it's so complete and so interesting and so different. And it's like, there's no way they can, they can't tell that story in this new movie because it would take too long, but also, and it would be very weird, I think, in the context of what the movie's actually, what seems to be about. But also, like, I think they're just going to change it. You know, I think they're just going to be like, Lex Luthor creates Doomsday. That to me is like, fun me is like kind of rips out

one of the fundamental components of comic book Saul. Well, here's the thing, whether you're making, I think, a movie which I really don't, I've had some limited experience with or comics, and then I've had a lot of experience sort of looking at older characters and sort of going, well, what do we want to take with us? Because it's sort of like packing for a trip.

Last summer, I did during Secret Wars, which was a Marvel publishing event. That's a secret. That's a secret Wars reboot. Yeah, it was the end, it was the end of Jonathan Hickman's long story that was in the Avengers and in Fantastic Four, and it was a great opportunity for the rest of us as we knew that the Marvel universe was ending to sort of go, what do we wanna replace it with? And I'll simply throw this out as an example

of I pitched a Western. And so it was the Marvel characters in a town called Timely that there were no superpowers and that you know these characters are grinding on each other and like what do we get out of that and one of the characters that that was gonna come out of that was a character named Red Wolf and he was way back in the day he was supposed to be Captain America around issue 300 I think and. And then the publishing plan changed. This is like years and years ago. But we thought, hey, let's get an updated Red Wolf and bring him forward. And so that ended up being a real, I guess what I'm trying to say is,

it's not like these movies aren't, they have to make choices and they have to make choices based on, you know, sometimes decades, sometimes your favorite story is sort of dragged to the trash because to serve the movie. Of course. Sure. Of course. It's, you know, a bummer when that happens to your favorite story, but, you know, I'm hoping

that I feel like you're dismissing my complaint. No, I'm not. Fine, Jerry, I get it. You don't care. Here's the thing is that, do you think it's origin story? No, I care about all the, here's the thing. The stories are not undone by a movie that he didn't like. Right.

I don't know if I'll do it. I don't know. Maybe he could move it. I hope we do. I do, you know, I know what I've seen of Civil War looked. I think it was Devon Farachi on Twitter who wrote something that's very insightful. He said, and forgive me if this was, maybe it was you. I don't know his tweet, I'm going to steal. But the characters in Civil War looked like they loved each other,

but they were fighting. And the characters on the other side really like, they're really leaning into the sort of almost glaring hatred of each other. Right. Well, are you talking about Batman Superman? Yeah, yeah. Well, there's definitely, I mean, that's an interesting, I feel like the Batman Superman concept is literally one, it's like Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns battle. I don't, maybe there was a

Batman Superman fight that predates that, that is was a major event, but I don't remember it, I don't know about it. I just feel like there's this idea that that fight, I feel like that fight is really important in the universe of those characters, but also it is not actually part of the current universe of those characters. It was set in a future. You know what I mean? It was set in a future and it was a fight that Bruce Wayne threw. Right, I don't know if people remember that.

You know, he wanted to lose the fight. It was the fight. The fight was the distraction. Yeah. In Grand Batman plans, he was faking his death and moving on. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. If you haven't read Dark Knight Returns. And grand batman plans he was faking his death and moving on spoiler alert spoiler alert if you have a red dark night returns Really bad spoiler like just you know what maybe

Maybe we'll preface that maybe I'll have a spoiler alert before Yeah, that's what I was gonna say is spoilers have an expiration. I mean really I feel like I'm I can be the the dark night that gets hunted for that spoiler. Wow. Wow. You're the hero that we deserve. Okay. I see. I see you're going to that. But so actually, let me talk about some of the comics that I mean, we've talked about some of the things you've written, but like you're writing currently Chubaka. Is this correct? Yeah. Chubaka Deadpool Deadpool. You've done some Batman. I'm Kenny Avengers. I did some Batman last year. On Kenny Avengers, is your currently working on? Yeah. Which is a whole different set of Avengers.

Yeah, it is. It was a team that Steve Rogers put together to promote unity between humans and mutants when they needed it most. And the Rick Remender, the writer who wrote the first two volumes, did this really amazing sort of sprawling sci-fi adventure. And, you know, I knew that if I tried to duplicate that, that I was going to fall flat. So I went in a different direction, and eight months later in this new Marvel universe that isn't a reboot. It's just a restart that now we have a big, that's a three-way clash. The inhumans have

ascended and I'm at the intersection of what that means for mutants, humans, and in humans. This is a fertile ground for recent comic characters. I feel like in film as well, is this sort of like divide and misunderstanding between like normal people and people who are from outer space or people. Yeah, what if we gave a message board, you know, or a comments thread superpowers? It's like that to me is the, you know, look at, look at how awful those are today. Like if you add, you know, the rough and tumble, you know, somebody that can shoot lasers out of their eyes, it's going to get a whole lot worse.

Well, they probably wouldn't be in a comment. They probably wouldn't be comment. My guess is like, my guess is like, you know, if you actually have superpowers, you're probably going to go do something with them, right? You're not going to be like, I'll just stay at home and comment on this. Yeah. On this. And what is, and you're, you're potentially a celebrity or you're, you know, what does that mean for you? It's sort of fascinating. Well, yeah, it is a little bit, I feel like comics are a little much more meta now. Well, I think this is because of the films maybe,

they do seem more meta in the sense that like we recognize that these people wouldn't be treated as necessarily normal. I think that there was, I think with Batman and Super Men you've always gotten that, certainly with X-Men, a lot of the X-Men storylines are about like how the public reacts to the X-Men. But I do think, it is interesting now that like the celebrity aspect of it has entered it.

I mean, and maybe that's just because of Iron Man and maybe that's just that character. And it's so popular in pop culture now that has affected all the other comics, but I don't know. We're sort of exploring that a little bit in the new run of Deadpool. Since we last saw him, we moved ahead eight months in the universe. So you can change any status quo that you really wanted. So we leaned into the meta on that. We just said, look, he's a character that has a video game right now that has a movie in the pipeline.

And we're gonna we're gonna make him very famous and we don't quite know why that's happened yet or I know why but readers haven't quite gotten there and we're having fun exploring you know what what seems to be a wonderful life and it's actually kind of a horrible life. Isn't that always isn't, isn't that actually the way it is for most real celebrities? I mean, isn't it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Don't be a match. I mean, isn't that why they end up being like OD and going to the other fucked up shit that they do?

I feel like it's actually we're like, oh, gotta be so great to be famous and then it maybe is not as great as it seems. I've been to Disneyland with, you Disneyland with friends who've been on TV shows and everyone sort of with their kids and stuff and you wouldn't believe some of the things that people run up and it's a strange situation because on the one hand, obviously, it's the job. You could also go do another job. But you know, some of also go do another job. But, you know, and, you know, there are some of these guys

are the most patient people in the world where you just, you know, they would wanna say something else, but they don't say it. Right, it's like that picture of Billy Corgan at six flags or whatever, he's on there. He's on the, he's on the, he's on the roller coaster. He gets to ride a log plume. He's like, what do you, he actually responded, right?

He's like, what do you want from me? I was at six flags, I was trying to enjoy a log clue. He's like, what do you want? He actually responded, right? He's like, what do you want from me? I was at six flags. I was trying to enjoy myself. Yeah. It's like, it's like, you can't enjoy the roller coaster, Billy. People are just going to take pictures of these the whole time. Yeah, you got to be cool the whole time.

Yeah. Well, he looked very unhappy. I want to take a quick break. And then I have some very specific things I want to ask you. I want to quickly talk about wealth front. Now look, you know you should be investing your money for the long term. You've probably thought, well how should I do that? You know, you probably googled it. Maybe you binged it.

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Ventured. It'll be worth a listen. We're back with Jerry Duggan. We've been talking about comics. I actually want to talk about, obviously, this is very much your life and you're doing this every day. I'm curious, you're writing Chewbacca. Yeah, okay, which is Chewbacca is part of a massive and now- It sounds like the easiest job in the world there. No, it doesn't sound easy at all. It actually sounds very complex, which is what I want to ask.

So Star Wars is completely out of control right now. Like the hype level on the Star Wars universe, the marketing of the Star Wars universe, and Star Wars paraphernalia. I can't, I feel like it's at a level that I don't think I've ever seen any marketing campaign at in my lifetime. I mean, literally there's like Star Wars makeup, there's like obviously a billion toys, there's video games. Like everything is kind of built around this new movie that's coming out the Force Awakens, which is the JJ rooms. I mean, I don't know why I'm telling you this. You know it. I'm certainly not letting any of the movie.

It was like gonna be a new Star Wars film. Apparently it's all focused on on Jar Jar Banks. Yeah. Apparently it's all focused on on Jar Jar Banks. Have you read this theory? Have you seen this, read this theory on, I think it's on Reddit, which is that Jar Jar is actually the phantom menace, that he is like pulling the strings from behind the scenes in the first three movies. I think original three, but the, but the, the new way of the prequels. The prequels, yeah.

Yeah. Has it been debunked? I don't know that it it been debunked? I don't know that it's been debunked, but I would like love it to be true, but it's not true. The series, like George Luke, is there was such a backlash

that they were gonna reveal him as this evil character in the second of your third movie. But even there's such a backlash. Yeah, where you're just like, I don't want that guy to be the bad guy. Like, do we have Darth Vader? Now there's this, like,

this is still the puppet guy. Yeah. It would be pretty cool. Pretty I mean what if just that was the case like what if Jar Jar Banks makes an appearance at the end of of the new one. It's like the whole time it's been Jar Jar Banks. I mean that would be the greatest troll in the history of it. It would be the greatest troll in the world and then you'd leave the theater and it would be like people would be setting fire to the billboard. Yeah. They cool though a lot of publicity on that. A lot of he got a lot of he got a lot of a lot of page one. So you're right. You're right in Chubaka. Now is there in crazy? Do you get like a crazy bible like of Chubaka facts and things you can't do with the character before you start writing that

character? No. They were very hard. Do they really want to put them in shorts? No, they don't have a problem. Well, they want an original story that you want to tell. You put them in shorts. Yeah, oh yeah, Biker shorts. What we find out is that the Bandileer

was a messenger bag. And the messenger bag got laser dog. Wow. That's the big, and that's actually the whole chewy. That's the whole focus of that, of the series that you're out in. Yes. No, but they want, they want you to be excited and then they, when they read something from you that makes them excited, everyone wants to say yes.

So even when you have a request or you have a story beat that is a no, everyone is looking for ways to make it a yes. With Chui, what I did was I wrote each line twice, once for the artist and the editor and the Lucasfilm story group in English that was parenthetical and then underneath that, the roar that was written out on a monopia for the letter that had to be copied exactly. So you wrote his dialogue translated and then also in what is the language called? Well, he's a wookie so he's from Kashak so it's the wookie language. It's called wookie. Yeah, I would think. Actually, you know, you would think this could be, you should know

because you're writing them into a comic book right now. I know, but he doesn't, luckily for me, I can be dumb. He doesn't walk around and go, does I know when he hears speak wiki? Yeah. Or he doesn't say. Or he doesn't say.

That's a deleted scene. But don't you want to, he's like at a bar late. But if you were like, but if you want, if like Chouy was revealed to have a family and, you know, or something, you want to like just drop a bomb like, oh, by the way, maybe he doesn't have a family by the way. I got to, I got to, I got to do a, I got to have a little, I don't know what megaton it would be, but the fifth issue of Chui has a nice bit of, is it out? Is it out? It's out in, I think four is out this week and, or four is out mid-December and then five is out the first week of January.

It can, he shaved, what if he shaved? What happens? What's under the, I think he looked like a guy. I think he would look like Rob Gronkowski. Like Rob Gronkowski looks like a shave Chubaka. Shared bookie. A good shiit. Is that an insult?

Is that a compliment? No, I think it's a compliment. Like a big sort of ball catching savant. Wow. Yeah. Interesting. Okay, so there's a rumor that Chewy dies in this new movie. This is a hot rumor that's going on.

But there's a rumor that everyone dies in the new movie, right? Or, no. I don't think so. The hot rumors I've heard are Luke Skywalker's the bad guy. Chewie dies. Uh-huh. And that Adam Driver's character is on a campaign to actually reincarnate Darth Vader. And that Darth Vader makes an appearance in the movie.

I, which is very, a very cool idea, but also very horrible. reincarnate Darth Vader and that Darth Vader makes an appearance in the movie. I, which is very cool idea, but also very horrible. I really know nothing. You don't know if Chewie dies. No. Because you can just keep writing him as if he doesn't die if he does die. I'm going to keep writing him no matter what. We'll bother you if he dies in the film.

You know, I was, yeah. But look, if it serves the story, I mean, I shot Cap, well, I'm not going to spoil 1872. I was going to say I did a horrible thing to a character I loved in the West. I feel like I know what you were about to say. Sometimes really bad things happen to good, you know, your favorite character. And then look that also really can make things weird with the fans of that character, the person with the tattoo on their arm of that character. Does that, have you ever encountered a, like, a psychotic superfan who's mad at something

that you did to a character? Not me, no. I've been very lucky in that, you know know my fan interactions. Well, that's true I'm practical. I just even today like I felt like a like somebody rubbed a dumb genie lamp and out I popped and I'm like what year is it oh my god Star Wars billboards, you know I work out of the house. Oh you work on leave. Yeah, yeah, I have an office at the house So I I literally knocked spider webs off of the card. I have to come down here.

Did you really? Yeah. Do you walk? Are you a walker? I try to walk. I have an elliptical at the house. I'm not trying to get your address, but we're part of L.I. You know what?

I live at 3, 5, 4, Fakey Street. Fakey Street? We moved on just north. We moved on just north. I got to my neighbor, Tom Cruise. And uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,. I mean, there's places nearby, but so you're like one of these all like, it's very much the suburbs sort of now. I was on when I was at Attack of the Show. It was a live TV show, live daily TV show. You were going to be getting that. Yeah, right, a year ago, but the, I ended up finding an apartment around the corner,

so I walked to work then as well, but that was, you know, you would walk up and down housing and there's, you know, five guys, if, or movie theater, or whatever, this is a little bit different. But my son, you know, needed, I wanted him to be in a good public school, so that was important to us. That does seem to be a thing that happens. Parents want their kids to go to a good school. And the next thing you know, you're, you can't get a coffee. You can't physically access a place to give you coffee. Let's talk about TV because you've written for TV. You wrote for a tack of the show, which I made a couple of talking head. Yeah.

A couple of comments on great on that. Thank you. Is that that sounds like you're mocking me? Are you mocking? No, no, not at all. Gavin. No, no, Gavin, uh, did Gavin Purcell, this, he sort of introduced you like, I forget how or maybe it was Sean Jordan. Sean, Sean and Gavin both, well, I met Gavin actually. I didn't meet Gavin until he was doing late night. Um, okay. Sean, I was the guy who would reach out to me, who he's the person I knew from attack of the show.

Uh, I don't know if it was, I guess Gavin and Sean were there at the same time or no. Yeah, there was there was some overlap. Yeah, I was in the shadows like emperor Palpatine. Um, which is exactly how I think of him. But yeah, but but Attack of the Show was really weird because what now, how long were you there? How many years were you writing for? I turned a two week writing stint into almost five years. Wow, but was that fully a full time gay? Yeah, the really good news for me though. here is where you're writing for it. I turned a two week writing stint into almost five years. Wow. But the really. Was that fully a full time gay? Yeah, the really good news for me though was that that was a live show.

So at five o'clock every day, that show whether it was great or whether it was awful was done. You didn't have to worry about posts, you didn't have to worry about edits, you didn't have to worry about notes, all of that was gone. Right. So it freed up a lot of time to write comics. It was like nerd. It was like nerd TRL. Yes, sort of.

Yeah. In fact, I bet that was the pitch in the meeting, right? It was like, it's like TRL, but for nerds. It's for TRL, yeah, but for people that spend more money on tech. Yeah, exactly. But it's interesting. I mean, that show also may have been a little bit ahead of its time.

I mean, I think it was from a different time, but it was, there's nothing else like it on TV now. Here's my read on it, yeah, it was ahead of its time, but it was also trapped in the past. Meaning, I could take last night's daily show and send you a link to watch it. And I could put that on your Facebook page, I could tweet it. But the attack was very forward looking. And I think there's DNA of the stuff that we were doing still around today. You know, a lot of the viral stuff that started happening in late night or the guest stuff.

We did a lot of fun sort of different things with guests that I think people do now, but the problem with the tech was that it was built so that to drive eyes to the channel. And that just wasn't helpful. The TV show were consuming their media anymore. It needed to be an app. It needed to have the freedom to live online.

But because we were fair use, we couldn't license or have clips up for anything more than like 10 days. Right. And this was in an era when people don't... I mean, it wasn't that long ago. It's ancient history. It's really ancient history. It was.

It was. But people really didn't... Nobody knew how to use... Like, nobody knew what to do with video. I mean, it wasn't that long ago. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything.

It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything.

It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's a huge contest or anything. It's something like that. Yeah. So I mean, it wasn't that long ago. People really did not know how to I mean, none of these networks knew what to do. They still don't know actually. If you look at you're still figuring it out. If you look at what what networks do I was looking at my Apple TV last night and I was like, oh, I want to watch this show on FX and

You go into like the FX app and it's like oh, we have clips of the show But we don't actually have the show in on. And it's like, what? Yeah. Why, I'm really willing to give you eyeball dollars for your ads. Just, I don't care. Put a Sonic ad on it. They actually do. Just put so many Sonic ads. And as a person who lives in New York,

I can tell you, there are no Sonic's here. Yeah, there are no Sonic's. Sonic has no care for you. And, right, but I know all of what their hottest meats are right now. I can tell you all about the chicken. They got chicken wings with different flavors at any rate. But it's like, dude, I'll pay you. I'll even give you money.

Just give me some way to watch your shit and people still don't do it. And so, like, Attack of the Show came from, first off, G4 was a channel that should have been like way ahead of the curve, but wasn't for some reason on this stuff. Yeah. That's true. And Attack of the Show was a show that was actually really interested in things that have become totally central pop culture like comics and comic book characters, but also technology in a way where they'd go cover an Apple event.

And Chris Hardwick would be walking around with a microphone interviewing people. Yeah. Like it was like a big deal, which of course, it was a big deal. But it's interesting to think about because it was like this brief moment. I feel like people will forget about this moment where all this shit was so new and so weird.

And there were not places where you could hear about it except on the internet. Right. There's nothing else to be about it. There's nothing. And look, I think it could succeed again. Or succeed for the first time was put on now. Yeah.

You know, the sci-fi or the Comcast owns it. Right. Put it on sci-fi. Sci-fi is even trying to walk back from that terrible rebrand they did where it was like spelled with an accent. Oh God, right. Right. Why would you do that Yeah, I mean it was like it was like throwing your your you know

They threw away all the good will they had it's just like psych I just I was like psych Like just kidding. I don't know. I know how you spell psych But yeah, what is it? That's why FY right? Yes, that's it. There's so many other ways to tackle that problem. It's so many. I mean, just a billion that don't require you to completely destroy this balance of it. To completely confuse everyone about what you said. It's like, you know, it stands for, right? You know, it stands for science fiction, right? Yeah, but then it's in quotes. Just for quotes. Right. I think there is actually like kind of a vacuum for Right. I think there is actually a kind of a vacuum for really fringe conversation in any linear manner.

Like, I mean, there are lots of web shows. There are, I mean, there are lots of like little web things and weird YouTube channels and stuff, but like there's not, anybody has made much of an attempt at like putting really brainy, really weird nerds on television and letting them do their thing. I mean, we see it more now,

but I don't think that, like, you know, what it, and we're sitting right here. I know, I do it. I think it just has. I mean, give a television show. I don't understand what the problem is. I did a pie, I actually did a, I talked about this a bunch of times.

I did a pilot for FX, which was getting the whole idea was like a talk show for nerds, like about things that other people aren't going to talk about. Like, like, the kind of thing where, you know, and I might say I'm bitter when I say this, but like, if you look at like gamer gate, for instance, gamer gate was a conversation that was happening way for a long time before Colbert ever mentioned it or picked up on it or anybody was really talking about it in like the higher pop culture zones.

Right. I just feel like there are going, there is a conversation to be had there. I mean, some of the stuff we're talking about is we'd never fly on a regular talk show or a regular TV show, but there are other people who want to talk about this stuff and hear about it. But again, just give us a show. But I do think eventually things will fragment where it'll be the tomorrow app. You know what I mean?

And you'll like, why not have it just be video? Damn right there will be. Yeah. In fact, it's a great time to announce the tomorrow app coming this fall. The next fall, no, I'm kidding. There's no tomorrow app. But, yeah, I can't get in on this. But things like that are absolutely what's nice is actually now we're getting to a point where

Like people are starting to lose the distinction between its TV or it's the internet You know that digital is just merging everything into one thing right and like at some point. I mean this is Very true is that the tomorrow maybe a channel on your Apple TV where there's a bunch of shows and a bunch of different things I'm not saying that's what I'm doing But I'm saying that like one could see that happening that will happen and that is happening with a lot of publishers now So I guess what I guess when you think about it fuck TV. I mean well I mean TV TV's from Moses TV's sort of a guy who has the nice house now who it's You can see it on a cliff and it's eroding. I mean it'll all be digital. Right. is sort of a guy who has the nice house now who you can see it on a cliff and it's

eroding. I mean, it'll all be digital. Right. Well, I mean, I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. Yeah, look, I mean, they didn't need a network or a cable provider to do Jessica Jones or any of the other shows they're doing. Sure.

So, I don't know what it was. On TV, even me. On Jessica Jones. I like their devil bit of a haven't watched it yet. I have watched three episodes of Jessica Jones, and I'm still not sure if I like it. Okay. But I think that's I'm a misogynist member of the Patriarchy for some. I've seen a lot of Argos like finally a show that takes on the Patriarchy,

and I do think that there are some very large themes that are being taken on in that show that relate to how bad men are for sure. But also it's like a pretty good, just a pretty good show even if it's not taking on the patriarchy. Yeah. You know, but I'm just not sold on it yet. Okay. Anyhow, you'll see any of it. No, I'm going to binge watch it during the holidays. You should do that. I't spend time with your family. Don't think it. Don't try to do that. Look, they're like, don't you have something to binge watch?

You know, like, you're really busy in here actually. Can you go back to your cave wherever you are normally? It is, it's a cave. It looks like a comic shop. I've a spinner wrap in there. Did you bring a satin bread? You brought that comic shop set just home? Well, you know, the comic shop set was like a really good, you know, we got, we reached

out to like people that own their own character like Mike Manola for Hellboy. And so the fake comic shop was like sort of the best comic shop I was ever in. Really? Did you get like, did you get like some killer, highly collectible issues? You were so on leave behinds and some bow and busts. Really? Do you collect? I mean, are you a collector?

I guess I used to be, and I don't anymore. I had a short box of comics that I was putting one of every comic that I had collaborated on away from my son. And now that's a long box of comics and soon to be probably two long boxes. But I treated myself to the side show collectibles Hulk when I got the Hulk gig a year ago,

but that was about where I could... I just can't throw it away. If I'm your way. Yeah, well, if I, you know, that would take up so much free time. Dear sir, I'm writing Deadpool. Please send me your finest Deadpool merchandise. So you are writing Deadpool and Deadpool is about to be a huge movie.

Yeah. Did you have any interaction on it? Like, did you speak to people who are writing that movie and say, oh, here's things we do with Deadpool? No, I never had that opportunity because you think they'd want to talk to people who write deadpool. Well, they may have, but the way that the movie business, Deadpool had not stalled, but it had been written

and conceived many years ago, sort of before I was even writing Deadpool. So now that they've been able to resurrect it when it leaked, I don't know if you remember, there was like the test footage and the internet went so crazy. Is that like the animated thing? Yeah, it was, I think it was like motion cap, but it was Ryan Reynolds.

I think that's really the, what was there was. And there was some like a truck thing with a truck. Yes, yeah. So there was this guy. I was like, what is this? I was like, what is this that I'm watching? I couldn't figure out if it was like a fan made thing. You know Tim Miller, who is the director years ago, did it as proof of concept and showed it to the executives at Fox. And at that time,

look, yeah, I don't know what their thought process was. They were like, we're not moving forward with PG 13 or a hard arc. We don't want to do it. We can't imagine a dark or adult superhero story. Sorry, sorry, just this is not an audience for it. It's a wrap, you guys are wrapped. You know, no one wants to see an adult storyline with a comic book character in it. Sorry, please leave. Batman 1989.

But Ryan Reynolds, I thought really, like that was the, you know, he was born to inhabit this role. Finally. A role for Ryan. I just, I've really been impressed with how he's thrown himself into it. That's mean. I, I, I, Ryan Reynolds is one of those guys who's like, he's kind of grown on me a little bit as an actor.

He's one of the people when I first saw him in a couple of movies. I'm like, I'm never going to like this guy's work. He just rubs me the wrong way for some reason. And I do feel like Bradley Cooper also felt this way to me. I'm gonna think against regular white guys. Yeah, I hate white guys a lot of white guy aggression. Yeah, but then like they grow on you, you know, they stick around. You know, they just get it. I love the movie that Ryan Reynolds did. Was it called

Safe House with Denzel? I really enjoyed that movie. Is that where Ryan Reynolds is like a some kind of, uh, in his own operator? Yeah. He's an operator. Oh, that's a different movie. And the one, you know, I'm excited speaking of this is going to be the ban of your existence. You have to say nice. There's like, Ryan Reynolds, Yeah. No, no, I don't I could I could come I could actually obligate it to praise right around here's the thing you know, I'm not you know, I don't know whether It's it's really it's their own thing, you know, I'm doing my take on Deadpool and they're doing their take on Deadpool I hope their take on Deadpool is great But I do I really have been enjoying all the things that he's been doing to promote it on the internet. You know, did you see his Halloween

video, dressed as Deadpool with the kids stuff? Yeah, I thought, you know what, he's, I was like, he nailed it. He nailed the performance. He does him with his money. He's generally into it. Yes, it's so great. Like in a nerdy, in a nerdy, non-normal way. And now I can't think of another actor I would ever want to see in this role. What's a good thing he's young? Yeah, many years of playing Deadpool. I hope they get to Deadpool 13, 14, and 15, and it's... I feel like they would reboot it

before they're in double digits. Yeah, that's true. Like, there's no way the Avengers is going, you know, what are they on their third movie now? The next one will be the third one. But in the total universe, they've got like, what, 15, 16 or something.

Well, I think of these roles now as like James Bond. Eventually, there will be Sean Connery will yield to the next. I'm not saying it's gonna be Lazenby, but like, the greatest bond. I would forget Bond. Yeah, I know, forgotten Bond. But I, you know, the greatest bond. I would forgotten bond. Yeah, I know, forgotten bond. But I would think, you know, eventually, and plus, look, you get the infinity gauntlet, you could do any number of things. Wow. Interesting. Well, it is actually, it's funny,

but comic book stories more than any stories, probably that any filmmaker could tap into are like, yeah, there's a different guy who's Captain America now because that's just what happened. You know, oh, there's a different actor, a different storyline. Like, yeah, this is the other universe. You didn't know that. This is the second universe that this person is actually. That guy fell and someone picked up the mantle. And here we go.

There you go. And that, by the way, that character, that quote replacement, becomes someone else's, that's their number one top shelf go-to character and that's sort of what I think people forget when they're stomping around like Godzilla's on online is that like it's a story and it's a character and it's someone else's Favorite character the issue you hated the most is someone else's favorite thing that I've signed copies for that is you know I mean, but that is true That is actually the beauty. That's one of the beauties of the comic book form.

Well, you were going to say something about how there's something involving white guys that I would not be happy about. Oh, there's that new, there's like the new white guy conspiracy movie, right? It's Christian Baill and Brad Pitt and Ryan Reynolds. The big short? Yes. I sort of am doing it. The big short?

It's directed by Adam McKay, who's done a lot of really funny and interesting movies. That is about the... I'm co-wrote Ant-Man, right? I don't want to commit to that, but I only saw Ant-Man on a plane. So I made it on the small screen. I actually saw it on an ant-size screen, and I got small screen. I like it. I'm actually sought on an anti-size screen and I got to say really added to the really you know made the film. Resonated but but the that movie is about the what this the financial collapse

essentially. Yeah, let's get it good. Let's get it good. That's going to much for Oscars I think. Is that our segue to into politics? I think it is. Let's talk about all the time. No, no, we have time.

We have a few minutes. Yeah. So this is something I actually didn't. So I was like, yeah, I attack at the show. And oh, I also want to ask you about writing for awards shows because my producer, Magnus, who is Swedish, told me that you've written for awards shows. And I have, let's just, I just want to, let's spend like two minutes on that. I just want to explain to me what awards shows you've written for and what it's like, or

just tell me what the process of writing for an award show is and how I've either good or bad at this. Well, years ago, this was actually my first gig at G4 was writing for, they had a big award show called G4. It was a award show they were making up and that they would give video game awards to video games. Then there's just a video game award show last night. There was, yeah, and then look at you for it. But you for had the right idea at the wrong time, right? Maybe the execution wasn't so great. You think the executives of G4 are like, Jesus fucking Christ.

This is, you know, they must be so pissed right now. Hopefully they still have executive jobs somewhere, but I don't know. Yeah, I'm sure you saw that. I was grateful for the experience, and I was grateful to, it really made me very, look, writing an hour of TV every day with like just a couple of other people, really makes you fast, and then makes you

a wonderful amnesiac, where you're, I can't worry about a sketch that went wrong yesterday, I have to focus on today. So you just keep moving and moving and moving and wrenching and that really helped with the comic book stuff too because look, a screenwriter might write one screenplay a year, two screenplays a year, maybe more of their prolific. You know, I'm doing three or four comics a month, you know, there's a 25 page scripts where you just are going I'm gonna make them the best that I can and move forward.

But back to the really quick about the award shows, they are so surreal. I'm sure. I remember, actually I met, you know, they hired, G4 came to me and they were like, we know you need some other writers, we found a team and I was like, oh good, you get two writers for the price of one and they're like, no, they're three. Oh, wow. And I was like, oh, my God. I was like, well, this could be bad. Maybe

they're no good. Yeah, three, it's like, then it's like three versus one. You know who it was? It was the early, it was the lonely island, guys. They're just like town. Yeah, yeah, really, even your is this be Is this prior to them doing all their video stuff they were doing, like, like, I mean, literally, we were all like, they were doing them sort of in the background. Like, I remember,

do like, yeah, like I was holding a laptop. We were basically filming those Keve and Yorm wrapping on the G4 set. It's in one of the videos. I'm holding a laptop. And, you know, because look, the set looked great. It was well lit. And we were like, fuck it, let's get up there

and like, you know, we'll steal the shot. One I use, the one I use, the resources you've got at hand. I mean, that stuff, that's interesting that they were, I mean, I'm not surprised to hear that, I guess. But that stuff was so proto, like internet video, the stuff they were doing was like, totally early days of really viral, like internet video the stuff they were doing was like early days of really viral like internet comedy which did not really exist before that era.

It was fun to sort of watch it all happen. So you guys wrote this GeForia award show together. Yeah, and then you know we wrote that one together and then I think we did another one. But then there was like there were a lot, it was the golden age of fake award shows, like VH ones big in 05. And you're like, well, what was big this year? We're just going to give away awards. That was an actual, that was an actual award show.

It was really an actual, an award show. And they got, I forget who it was. I know puff, I think, I don't know whether he was pided yourity or Puff Daddy, he showed up to give a Maverick award. I think to like, Ashton Kutcher. And none of this means anything. But when he got there, they were literally, they were like, listen, Puff's gonna need an award. And we were like, wait, what?

And it's like, okay, so it's right, another award. So I want to give him. You're saying at the, you're saying at the event, what? And it's like, okay, so let's write another award. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no you know, I remember from that year, though, I remember from that year of Anaka and the door of someone, probably now I'm going to be blackballed from writing an entertainment award. I don't know. Don't worry. There was an Anaka on the door and it was like, hey, Byling has a problem with her copy. Wow.

I was like, all right, well, let's go check this out. And yeah, I don't know what was going on in that trailer, but that was like a real thing. That's amazing. I think she yeah, I don't know what was going on in that trailer, but that was like a real thing. That's amazing. I think she just sort of wanted to see what was going on, but there was various states of undress. Oh, really? Oh, yeah.

She came in or you went there? I went in full nude just going look as power move. You're like, you're a showroom's boss. I know that you're changing, but I don't want you to feel uncomfortable. So I've removed all of my clothes and have an erection. Sorry, I'm sorry, but I just want you to be comfortable. Okay, so I feel like I've gotten a really good view into the world of awards shows.

I love the idea that awards are just made up. I mean, let's just be clear. It's not like they actually are meaningful. It's not like, I mean, yes, you can have like your peers are like, oh, you're so great here we gave you an award. But they are just like, I mean, I can give anybody an award if I want to. Nobody's stopping me.

I was sort of waiting seeing if Juan was gonna come my way. Well, guess who's been nominating has one best comic writer of the year in the tomorrow awards. In the tomorrow's? Yeah, the tomorrow's. You know what's fun though? The other side though of the award show

is the non-televised ones. They can be deaf, but Patton Oswald does such a good job hosting them in town. Well, he did the webbies, maybe two years ago. Oh yeah, yeah. It's pretty entertaining. He's been moving. I presented something to somebody I think he was very professional.

He's a nice guy. He was too nice. Funny guy. But the industry ones can be really fun. So you mean example, what's an industry? Well, like the VES awards, the visual effects society awards. So they're not televised. No one is, and you know, those are pure voted. is no one is, and you know, those are pure voted. And those always have two, the student reels, they bring in the best student visual effects designers and so you really seeing something, you're seeing the future of visual effects. It's really neat.

You have to imagine those kinds of awards are actually more meaningful. You've got a bunch of like visual effects nerds voting on it, they're gonna be like, yeah, that explosion was duped, that was a legit. That was a legitimately advanced explosion. We've never seen anything like that. Patent, Patent hosted the year that gravity was, and I think Patent riffed this. He walked out and he said, welcome to the first annual gravity award because gravity was actually nominated against itself. So the guys that were doing it.

Like people who were uncertain. Yeah, it was gravity interior and gravity exterior for best visual effects of the year. So like the stuff inside the space station was going up against the explosions up in outer space. The gravity is just crazy. Gravity one, by the way. Thank God.

Thank God. And the hobbit. Wait, what? That's like where did that come from? It was what would be easy. How mad would the gravity people be? They're like, we thought this was a lock. We really thought there are no other nominees in this category.

And they could fix it in post, right? They could just give them some sort of. Oh, that's a great, there it is. There's the joke for one. There, there exactly is the chops that you need to write for an award show. Yes, that's right. Exactly what they're looking for. Okay, so let's talk politics, so that didn't realize this, but you're kind of a political

person, politically mind-person. I'm sort of fascinated by where we're going. So you're in LA, not a great moment in California's history the last couple of days with this shooting. Was it two days ago? I think yeah, either two or three. No, San Bernardino shooting. Yeah, and pretty bad, pretty nasty stuff. I mean, I think, I don't know how you feel.

I say you were saying about Bernie Sanders. I think it was a complimentary thing about Bernie Sanders. I feel like we're living in a, let me, I'll just give you my take on this, and then I wanna hear your take on what's going on politically in this country. I feel like we're living right now in the beginning of the death throws of like right wing conservative Christian,

conservative Christian, right wing thought is like on its way out in the, that's the optimistic view. It is, I'm the optimist. What's your take on? What do you think is going on? I think as Bernie Sanders' message will, as it resonates, I think people will realize that they have not been voting their interest.

And that they, look, I think, I guess I'm as left as left can get, but like, no, I'm more left. Well, yeah,, no, I'm more left. Well, yeah, I mean, I'll be to the right of you. But I think the only, like, I'm down to sort of thinking, and I know that this is going to sound crazy and dire. I'm basically have come to the conclusion that the only chance this country has is to turn a little toward socialism. And I think the things that Bernie Sanders is saying make a lot of sense.

And as his message, I saw Killer Mike open to Rally for him. And it made me feel like that there was some real progress there because the machine is built so that we'd all just accept I think Hillary Clinton is the candidate. But I know that there are a lot of people out in America who even if you thought that she was the better candidate that would simply just never vote for Clinton again. And now the last couple of days we've had polls though that do show that Bernie Sanders is the most electable versus that entire GOP field. I mean, I mean, I know that's not saying much.

It's well, I mean, it's saying something. I, I, I, here's the thing that's interesting though. And by the way, I like Bernie Sanders. I like, he's by the way, his gun policy's not been great. His gun is not. He's, that's his work is his one place that I think I'm surprised with given all of the other stuff that Bernie Sanders seems to be into his gun policy has not been has not been great and I'm very curious to see how that changes or if it changes

I mean everybody else by the way this is the this is the election of of giving people passes, right? Because you know Hillary Clinton's like yeah, just change my mind on it. You know, that's just what happened It's like okay fine everybody just change my mind on it. You know, that's just what happened. And it's like, okay, fine, everybody's changing their mind on stuff. So I hope. Yeah, and you know what, though, sorry to interrupt, but that's important because I think so much of our internet culture is sort of built on,

like, you know, shaming someone and then doing a victory dance. Yeah. Yeah, you want up them, but like, isn't it better to sort of change someone's mind? You just described... Sorry, go ahead. No, I just, and I think that there has to be room for people to sort of have that moment

of, you know what? I thought that back in the day now, I think this, because that's, you know, I think the only chance that Bernie has to get elected. His socialism has been such a terrible, horrible word for so many years. But that's like actually, that is progress. I mean, that is progressive to change your opinion on something and have it be a better opinion. I think, by the way, you just said people, shaming people, and then doing a victory dance, which basically describes Donald Trump's entire platform. Let's talk about Trump, though, you're absolutely right.

But nothing that he has done has ever hurt him in the poll. No, no, no, he's bulletproof. I mean, I just absolutely like this terrible demon. There's been some, you can't be ding. There's been some great articles written about this, but there is, you know, there is this basic truth about what's happening with Donald Trump, which is like, he has, he's made the media impident in fact checking him.

Like, he basically has this direct line to his followers and he has this direct line to speaking to the public through like social media. And he uses that direct line in a way that, no, because he's not a politician. He doesn't use it in politically safe ways. I'm not lauding him for doing it, but it basically allows him, it gives him this kind of like this power to just do and save it every once and nobody can, you cannot fact like he's

moving too quickly. Like these, he's so grossly honest. Like, he's, like, perfect. He's grossly honest in his dishonesty. It's like, yes. He's gross. Yes, he's, every time out there, he steps out in the lies, but he doesn't care.

I mean, Bernie Sanders is, wrapping himself in it. Bernie Sanders is kind of the anti-Trump in many ways because he's also like, it seems like it's very difficult for him to not say things like the word socialism, which is completely insane to hear from any political candidate in America at any time in our lifetimes.

I mean, no one says it, but it's true. I mean, it's worth saying that like, many, many, most of the industrialized countries that we look at and we think of as allies and we think are doing well, the kind of well that we think is success and with a country that's healthy, they are have massive amounts of what would be described as socialism as part of their policies, right?

Absolutely. And we're the only ones that resist, we resist so hard. And I think some of it is, listen, I get it, states rights, I think there's places where that should exist. I think that we obviously have a very diverse, very large country, but the reality is some of the stuff is just like common sense and we're not using common sense. And I think it's interesting, your theory is that people will start voting in their best interests as opposed to against their interests. Here's the thing, in 10 years, the job of Uber driver probably is not going to exist.

That'll be automated, right? Or by and large, maybe not in 10 years, maybe it'll be 10 years after. But we're on this road where technology is going to catch up and this society is gonna change. And like the Apple car, maybe you're not gonna buy the Apple car, maybe you'll summon the Apple car with your phone. So the job that you go and do as a driver when you lose your other job, that job won't even exist. So I do think that my hope is

that people will sort of understand. And I don't think I'm expecting, nor am I promising that like, stuff's just gonna start dropping down your chimney. But I do think, you know, let's move to a single-payer health care system. Let's put money into infrastructure and highways and just the grab that happened,

all this wealth just went up into the air and it just went down into bank accounts and offshore accounts that are not taxed and that are I mean, you know, it is the concentration of wealth and that's something that Bernie Sanders talks about a lot, I think is like, is this factor, this like secret factor that it seems like, you know, when you hear, You know, when you hear candidates argue about estate taxes, you know, they're talking about an argument on a state taxes for millions and millions of dollars. They're talking about like at the very highest level of, and the people who are voting like, yeah, I don't want you to mess with my estate taxes. They're like, because I'm going to have millions of dollars that I'm going to leave my family. And it's like, well, not in a climate where the person who currently has all the money is arguing to keep more of the money for themselves. Like that's just not how it works.

It's not like they just lived everybody. If they lived it everybody up, everybody in America, we wouldn't have no poverty in America, you know? Like the richest people in America. I mean, there's no reason that this country should have kids going hungry. And, you know, I just, there's so many things that I mean, just- Look, that's why I think Trump is sort of the perfect mirror for America right now. He's, he's ugly, loud, and sort of, my hope is that-

Selfish, every self- Yeah. And selfish, so selfish. Ugly loud and selfish is the perfect way to describe Trump. I mean, and I mean, ugly physically, I mean, he's got an ugly rhetoric. No, ugly rhetoric. Yes, just an ugly like soul. Yeah. I mean, he's a bad guy.

This is the thing that the second he said, this is what I don't get about Trump, we are, we live in fucking America, okay? Yeah. And the second somebody gets up on stage who's running for president and says something that is openly racist about people. Like, sorry.

And he's like, applauded. He's applauded. He's applauded. It's openly racist. It's also wrong. Yeah. Let's forget about fact checking for a second. But like the second you were basically openly racist on a stage, you have forfeit your you have forfeit your right to become president in this country.

Like this is a country. I'm one of the most diverse countries, one of the most accepting countries. I mean, we have our we are built on the backs of immigrants. We are built with immigrants. Almost everybody I know here has a grandfather, has a grandmother grandfather who literally are immigrants to this country. And so the idea that a person would get up on stage,

I get you worried about the immigration problem, totally get it. The idea that you would get up and actually be racist and say racist things. And he's like, he said to me, I said, I'm gonna shit the other day. About you. He's like, you Jews are good negotiators, right?

Literally, he's like, I don't know. You negotiate like one of you guys. To a group of Jews. He's like, I like you guys, you know, you're good with money. It's like, listen, the guy just sucks as a person. Do you really want this dope to be president? Like, I'm sorry, he may be very good at business. People, in fact, people tell him all the time

how great he is at business, but he's kind of a shithead who sucks. He's racist. And yet he's going to be, my assumption is now he's going to be the nominee. I don't think they can stop that. Oh, that's great. I wanted to be the nominee because I think here's what I honestly, you know, in some ways, I love Bernie Sanders.

I think he's a policies or better. Hillary Clinton is, I think, a monstrous debater. I think she is very, very good. I think she knows her shit. I think she's a trained attack politician. And I feel like she would eviscerate Trump in a debate. Well, can I tell you though that if Hillary is the candidate, obviously I'm going cartwheeling into the voter, into the ballot box and I'm obviously I'm going cartwheeling into the into the voter into the

ballot box and I'll I'm voting for Hillary right because so far the only thing we have on the other side is is a total clown. It's like it's like Trump makes Ben Carson look reasonable which is really problematic because Ben Carson is a complete lunatic. Well Ben Carson just I feel like and forgive me I just I feel like he's sort of makes everyone over on that side of the aisle just feel better about their racist views. Like that, that, that they've included Ben Carson somehow. I don't, I don't know. He felt like a find you, you feel like that, that, that is, so far from the Republican party.

Yes. Interesting. I mean, I, I, I can see how that could be the case. I mean, I couldn't possibly know what's in the hearts and minds of the Republican leadership. But I do know as they have a party that seems extremely lacking in diversity, I would hope for their sake they're doing anything and everything they can to encourage people of color, anybody, anybody who isn't a white guy to be part of the process. Well, but the, you know, the way that they've been, they've curtailed voting rights, they're not,

they're going the other way. They're going, they're basically, they're basically a bunch of races. I agree with you. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just like, look, it's not, you know, instead of trying to look, if opening the party

and making it broader and have appeal across those kind of demographics is not in their financial best interest. Well, just like, of course, which is what drives that party, basically. Yes. So, look, I'm going to give you a couple of crazy predictions. Okay, good. And then, unfortunately, we have to wrap. This is actually, I wish we'd gotten this earlier, because now I'm like really fired

up, and I'm loving, first off, I'm loving that you're agreeing with me just because that's nice to hear That's a very serious prediction. Let me hear your predictions. Just really quick. I think the GOP Convention could be contested Meaning like Trump makes it on the support. Yeah, but then there may be some stuff going on behind the scenes Which it would just be fun to see a contested convention. Yeah. And then I think, look, I don't know, am I crazy? I feel like Bernie Sanders is going to be the Democratic candidate. I just, I mean, I have trouble seeing that because of the sheer power of the flint of the, just the power that they wield in that party is. And I agree with you, I think, I mean, in many ways, I think that that Bernie is a better,

actually, on paper, a better candidate, but that's starting to win out. Well, I think that Bernie is a better, actually, on paper a better candidate. But that's starting to win out. Well, I think that's a beautiful, hopeful dream that you've got, and I'm behind it. I'll be happy that it's not that our president, our fucking next president, is not Donald Trump. Okay, I don't really at this point, you know what, just Jeb Bush, fine, whatever, just don't let it be Donald Trump.

Well, who would Jeb leave his 3% to when he drops out? Oh, good. Who, who, who he asked? What's that party as a nightmare? Just give me one rational candidate. Just look at all I want. They've all been chased out. Right.

They've all been, they've all been run out of town. Reagan couldn't get elected today. He's too radical. He's too radical. He's too radical. He'd be too, yeah, he's too lefty. Too leftist. Yeah. All right, listen Jerry

I'm sorry. We got to wrap up. This is so fun. So good. We have to do this. You get so much right next time you're in New York When you were physically here, you should we'll do it in the studio or next time in LA Maybe I can grab you and pull you into the city. Great. I'll be back in the winter But this is fantastic. Thank you so much for doing it and and you've got to definitely come back I would love to come back. Thank you. This was a lot of fun. That's it for the show.

We'll be back next week with more tomorrow, of course. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best, though it's unfortunate they're part of the Marvel Universe's ending. you you