Tomorrow - Episode 38: Sasha Frere-Jones Gets an Unexpected Delivery

Episode Date: January 26, 2016

Josh is joined by the beloved writer, music critic, and musician Sasha Frere-Jones, and the two men take an odyssey through sight, sound, and thought that most mortals can only dream of. Between deep meditations on indie rock, the true meaning of David Bowie, and whether or not Justin Bieber and Drake are part of the problem, Sasha and Joshua find a special rhythm that only a bass-playing duo could get inside of. This is one of the stranger and more sprawling Tomorrow podcasts ever produced. If you're not feeling it, you might be dead inside. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow on your host, Joshua Topolsky. Today on the podcast, we discuss Androgyny, Prince, and Plastic Surgery. At first, a word from our sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by Backblaze, Personal and Business Backup from Axe and PCs. Backblaze gives you online access to all of your files from anywhere you have an internet connection. You can even access your smaller files on the go

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to start your two week free trial. My guest today is a writer and music critic, a musician, and so far as I can tell generally very lovely, joining me today is Sasha Fraared-Jones. Sasha, thank you for being here. Oh, my pleasure. And also, I mentioned this, I just mentioned this, but we were talking before we started. You have a storied history, and then we have some connection, some connections in your past. You were a, where were and then we have some connection some connections in your past you were a where were you a bassist

bass guitar and O.E. I played both bass and guitar and then a bunch of stuff very badly which we then made sound appropriate in the studio But mostly you know on stage it mostly was playing the bass but but in a former life and potentially a future life now, because you just told me that you were, you're playing music again, you were, you played in bands, you toured, you drank heavily, I would imagine. I mean, that's my, you know,

at the time. What I know is that certainly, I mean, when were you playing, like when were you really out there, like what years? We were operational for real from 1990 to about 2003. And then we played a final sort of reunion goodbye tour moment, a single show at Premavera in 2010. Okay. They're drinking. There was drinking. Right. We were pretty mild as a band. I think the other two guys cut stone a lot, but that was not my thing. Right. The band, the band was you. Really?

You. I though, right? Terrible name. Very bad. Very bad. I love the name. No, I love the name. It's a proper, it's a proper name like it's capital U, lower case I, nobody ever rendered it that way. Everyone said UI instead of saying, oee. Is there meaning? Is that a word? It has sort of a, this refers to somebody we were talking about. It goes, it goes in orders of trivialness to like super seriousness, but it began, I was in a band called Dolores first in college when I was a little kid. And that was the first band I had that had two

bass players in it. We had two bass players as well. This is like 86. And the drummer, Dave Reed, and I were very fond of David Lee Roth's Spanish language version of Yankee Rose. And in the beginning of it, he's like saying something to a woman and speaking Spanish and saying, like, dummy on basso. And like cat calling her kind of, it's kind of gross. And then he says for no reason, he does this kind of harpo routine with Eddie Van Halen or whoever the guitar player,

Estevi, I guess, right? Yeah, I would that's the only one of those guys I don't know who it's replacement Halen Guy was. But he said he just goes, wee. Like the top guy like does something with a whammy bar. Oh, I see their little little back and forth. Little pinion there. Exactly. Vali.

And so Dave and I would often the way that annoying young men in a band will have, you know, those stupid things you do in a band that are really childish, like we would just say, we all the time. And so when Dolores broke up and I was forming Ui and it had one member of Dolores and at Alex Wright was the other bass player, He left after a year to go to school. David's like, oh, you got to call the band, we, and I was like, well, what is that? And then I thought, well, there is a play that I loved called the, there is a, sorry,

the resistible rise of Arturo Ui. It's basically about Hitler, it's a Brecht play. And then one of my favorite bands, Liquid Liquid, in the middle of Liquid Liquid is the letters Ui twice. Yes. And I was like, oh, okay, we'll call it that. And I thought it was very elegant. I like the way you rationalized it.

You had all these points of, these were all real reasons. Because I mean, it started with his dumb sound. And then I was like, well, how would I spell that? And I wrote, Oh, you hadn't considered, this was that you had to consider how you spell it. I see. And then I wrote it down and I was like, well, how would I spell that? And I wrote, you hadn't considered, this was that you had to consider how you spell it. I see.

And then I wrote it down and I was like, that's such a short, weird looking word, but I kind of like that. And now I had no idea that, nobody would ever pronounce it correctly, although John Peel did, which was like the high point of my entire life. That's huge.

Yeah, it was very huge. Any play at almost, we not only did a session for him, he played basically every track on every record we ever made. So the fact that I've never made any money for music is offset by the fact that Peel played us. It's just like kind of worth it. Yeah, I mean, it really is basically worth it.

If I made a record that John Peel liked, like, I'm good. Yeah, I mean, that's a fairly cool claim to fame. And I think in music, actually, most musicians don't get rich. Most musicians aren't, you know, don't retire on their music money. I do, I remember like when I produced it when I made stuff, I definitely had, I look back and I go, yeah, but you know what? It was pretty cool. Like I had a song that was in the top 40 in the UK for one week.

It was number 29. Well. And, and, uh, People have actually heard records that you've heard. People have heard records, but those people were a high, high on an ecstasy in cocaine. So do they, what their remembrance of it is, is anybody's guess, you know, in the, this is like, like 2000, what's that? What song was that?

The song is called Pistol Whip. Under the artist's name, Joshua Ryan, it is a nine minute trans epic. I'm gonna shock you here, I don't know that. Yeah, okay, I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised, but at any rate, I look back and I'm like, yeah, in no, by the way, I did make a little bit of money off that record, like, you know, but mostly it's

like just cool to be able to say, hey, this happened, you know, and like P-Tong, not the P-Tong is John Peel by any measure, okay? But you know, it's like, yeah, fuck that P-Tong was playing it. So that's cool. At any rate, but back to you. So besides your story to enrich the rich career you had in music, I think most people probably at this point know you as a music critic and a journalist, you wrote for the New Yorker, you were Stafford the New Yorker, you did a stit adgenious,

maybe we will or won't talk about, and then in your at the LA Times now. out and then in your at the LA Times now. I mean, that's my entrance to your world. The music stuff is, as I've just done a little research and had this conversation, a sort of a fiefop in my eyes. Our label is so punk rock that we're not on Spotify. So what's the label? Southern. Okay.

A very interesting label with an amazing history, but It's the one moment and I love them the one moment. I've been upset with them is is there Rejection of Spotify because as you just pointed out we didn't make any money selling records So the fact that we wouldn't make any money on Spotify doesn't bother me. I would rather have people hear our music. Right. Why not just put a time, like a gate around it and say, oh, new stuff, we're not going to release for a year or whatever. And then old stuff, we're going to put on there because it's not, I mean, how much are they selling a bunch of your old records? No, nobody buys their records. Right. Right. I would, well, can you describe, and now that

we've talked about it, we haven't even gotten into what I put the things I thought we were gonna talk about yet, but now that we talked about I'm curious How would you describe your sound? I've never heard I've never heard the band so okay? Give me a taste of if you have basically Two bass I always do a bad job of this even after 25 years It's two bass players in a drummer. I mean, we basically played,

so you just played a big bottom. It's all your life, I think. It's funny, nobody's made that joke in a long time. It's really well here I am, I'm here at your service. Thank you. You know, it's actually really simple music, but every time I describe it, it gets more egg-hitty sounding,

but it's basically funk without any singing and some weird instrumentation, but all the songs are fairly repetitive, pattern-based, and like pretty catchy. I mean, it's not very challenging music. Is it crowd-y? Oh, like crowd rock. Yeah.

One or two songs, but the claim, the amazing, amazing drummer in the band, Clem Waldman, who is in the Blue Man group band and Losers Lounge, which is actually relevant to what we're going to talk about because they're doing a Bowie tribute right now. Clem is just a genius, genius drummer. We just basically played these funky patterns. I mean, it was a lot of just putting together like lines against each other and I you know, I'm really really proud of the records we made No singing

I unfortunately sang on two songs, but then I I Yeah, you like then you listen to the record. I listen. I mean, it's it's very it's impossible to hear your own voice Then don't you think I mean if're not, some people are born to sing. I'm not that person. I've done some singing. You listen to it and you're like, no matter how good or bad it is, really, it's hard to hear yourself in any way other than hypercritical, right? Yeah, I mean, I was smart enough to only do it on, I think, two tracks.

Yeah, what's it? How many records did you put out? Other five or six. I don't really know. Foling. Foling. Foling. I guess.

One, two. What, where could I find? What, what, what are the tracks? I want to go after this. I want to listen. Maybe we'll interspersive of your singing in the edit. No, don't. I'll find them.

Don't worry. I'll find them. You know, we don't have to, We don't have to belabor the point. Okay, so the album that everyone out there should buy those is called Life Like. That's the one that I will, that's the money back here into your record. I like them all, but that one,

there's your 1997 boom. Is that how much it is, really, 1997? That's of the year. Year. That's the year. That's gonna say $20. No water to be by these things. They use the charge like $15 or $20 for the album though. That's the amazing thing. The great CV scheme. There was an amazing quote I never got to use from Lee Orco and who I interviewed him for a piece that didn't

that didn't come together but I was at his very very fancy house on Parc Avenue I guess for fifth Avenue. I don't know one of those places like you never go, but you know He had this beautiful townhouse still does and he has this amazing voice that I'm not gonna try to imitate because I also don't want him to kill me, but He has that feeling like he might you know, but he's very friendly I'm sure he's had people killed on no question you get the feeling like he might, you know, but he's very friendly. I'm sure he's had people killed on no question. You get the feeling like, you know, he's Lee Orco and, you know, and he's in the 95 feet tall. Right. Is he very tall? I did know that actually.

Really? He's really tall. And, you know, he has a great take on the people of written entire books about, you know, what happened with the CDs and the whole industry, but he was like, he said it all in one sentence. He said, CDs made dumb people think they were smart. He says, house, this house, it's stupid money.

It's CD money. And I was like, oh, okay. I wish we had sold some of them. You wish you had CD money, I think we all do. Yeah, I only ever made money. Yeah, interesting. What was his reasoning? What was his reasoning is What was his reasoning?

Is it that it just was cool to have a bunch of CDs or just the technology seemed cool or what? The very simple fact of being the same price markup. Oh, that's it. So it was just like, you know, the biggest scam ever pulled off by anybody, which also gives the lie to the rational actor, you know, theory of economics, which is there was a thing that was a perfectly good technology that sounded great, it was affordable, and then most of because of Phillips,

but also all the labels got together and they're like, hey, here's a new machine you have to buy. It doesn't sound very good, and the thing that used to be seven bucks is now gonna be 20 bucks. And everyone said, great. Can we buy more of these things than we were buying before? And so the thing the thing that you're talking about is, is, is vinyl? Well, first it was vinyl and then it was, which was,

it sounded good and was cheap. Right. But then we decided we all wanted to hear and buy these terrible fucking CDs for $20. What happened about cassettes? They don't fit into the picture at all. I don't know. I don't remember how much of the market share they ever took up. I mean, I guess at a moment in the 80s, they were probably kind of big, but. Yeah, I think what happened,

I mean, I think the Walkman was a big deal, right? I mean, the problem with vinyl is you can't take it in the car, you can't take it on a walk. And we started to get to say, with the Walkman, the advent of the Walkman, I think we started to go like, yeah, why can't I be listening to music all the time? I mean, you can actually go back and start blaming. I feel like you can start with blaming Sony for the walkman and then you can continue blaming Phillips for, is Phillips who invented this?

They invented that little... The technology that reads... Right. If I'm not mistaken, someone up there can fact check. I'm sure that's right. That sounds right to me. It's either Philips or Sony. It's one of the two. I think Philips sounds right to me.

I think they developed that a little laser, the eye that reads the CD. Yeah. That's them. For a long time, I think they own that patent. Maybe they don't anymore. But CD is also, but I mean, and I, here I am, I think I'm about to defend CDs. Okay.

I think the markup obviously is crazy, but CDs were inevitable, probably inevitable, and certainly, I mean, it can be argued, but CDs, you know, cassettes versus CDs, easier to deal with, easier to store. They probably actually sound better. And it just makes more sense.

It also gave way to, right? I mean, CD ROMs and, you know, massive storage for computers. So, those two are kind of hand in hand. I mean, it's like high information in a small package. Of course, the markups was crazy, but like everything in the 80s and not, I feel like 80s and 90s is really what we're talking about as a sweet spot where, but I think the same thing is true like magazines. You know, you hear people talk about Time Magazine in the 80s and 90s and it's like champagne was flowing every day and they've

crazy expense accounts and you know, there were four million subscribers to Time Magazine at its peak, which is nothing. When you think about the way, you know, BuzzFeed has 200 million monthly uniques or something, and you're like, the scale is all fucked. Like, what does this mean? How could they be going out for like three martini lunches every day, Time Magazine? It's just a different world, right?

But there were a lot of people getting dumb money that. Yeah, I mean, apparently the LA Times, I can't confirm this, when they were in their high money phase, and I think in the 90s, I've heard, this is all hearsay, but I think it's true. There was a room apparently that had multiple Picasso's hanging in it.

Like apparently the money was just insane at a certain point. Oh, yeah. Think about no wonder all these old people are so pissed off about, you know, I mean, I'm pissed off and I'm not that old, but I mean, there's reasons to be pissed off. But think about how it feels if you were time in the heyday, you're a journalist at time or an editor at time or whoever, one of the biz people or the LA times you have a room full of fucking Picasso's. And now, you know, you're like, hey, is there a bandar ad?

Can we get some bandar ads on this page? Or I don't know what kind of conversations they're having but they're definitely talking about bandar ads. I think it helped becoming a journalist being a musician first because the idea of making money from anything is kind of weird to me. So I had the same reaction when I started writing. It was like, it was seem so crazy to me

that I was getting paid on a regular basis. You know, because we had a student, my brother and I had a studio in Brooklyn and we were working with bands and you know, I mean, it's like, yeah, we're gonna, when our label gets us some money, we'll give you some money. We were like constantly chasing people down,

and we were in businessmen. We were just like, guys who wanted to make music. So it was like this kind of thing where we were always trying to find. We had a band too, that didn't make any money. And, you know, we're just like guys who wanted to make music. So it was like this kind of thing where we were always trying to find, we had a band to that and it didn't make any money. And, you know, you're just, you think like no one's ever going to pay you for anything, basically. No.

I mean, I had a, there are two moments where I should have, well, I guess I did pay attention. And also I didn't, I always had a day job and I didn't expect to make money through music. So, I mean, I was like, I sort of an office drone and then I did copywriting and then the music writing thing was this kind of beautiful accident. But in the middle of all that, I got, I made a solo guitar record, which I swear to God, the thing itself probably sold maybe 500 copies at most. It was on a Belgian label. It was some very sad guitar music I wrote after my dad died.

And a cable company out here in California licensed it for a commercial. And I didn't really even understand what was happening. And then they sent me the biggest check I had ever seen in my life. Yeah. And I was like, wait a minute, I didn't do anything. And then we went, then we went on a six week tour of America with a stereo lab who we made a record with. And I thought, boy, this is going to be like the bees knees. And it was grueling. And like like there's that drive from fucking Lawrence to, you know, to Denver that's like 15 hours. So you have to drive after the gig is over and you don't sleep in anyway. Right. I came home and I remember walking into the, I remember really clearly

I walked into the house back on Broadway. I was still married at that point and, and so there was like how much did you guys make? And and I so I just pulled the cash out of my pocket because the whole thing goes down It cash, right and I count it and I said So yeah, we made a $1,000 in six weeks. Oh God, and she looked at me and she said It doesn't sound right and I'm like yeah, it doesn't sound right. And I'm like, yeah, it doesn't sound right. Well, it's because how many people were on tour? Like eight.

How many people did you have? Oh, it was just the three of us. I was just three. OK, that's not bad. Well, it's really bad then. That's we had. That's bad. Why somebody not came and we'll hold on.

I'm so excited. Hold on. Yeah. Great, thank you. I'll leave this one in, I think. It's like a very appropriate interruption. I had a very dark thought when you went up to get the door. Can I share it? Can I share it with you? We'll scare, but okay. Yeah. I was like, what if there's a murder at the door? And this person shoots Sasha right here while we're recording. And then I went into this whole

thing about how I'd have to solve them. I'd have to solve the mystery and like find your killer because I'd feel like this responsibility. Anyhow, it was a very brief, it was brief and dark, but I think it just says that about my person. Now, my first thought was I'm like this responsibility. Anyhow, it was a very brief, it was brief and dark, but I think it just says that about my personality. My first thought wasn't like, oh, he's getting a nice package or something. I'm like, he's going to be killed by whoever, whoever is at the door. I think thematically,

will I appreciate you volunteering to solve my work? Why would they, Kleksev? It's nice of you. It's very appropriate. I just got a bunch of vinyl. Oh, really? Anything good. What do you have there? In fact something very good. This is this is all weirdly coming together as if I planned it Because you can go on the internet right now

people do remember that we existed oh boy and This is african head charge Oh a band that was on you sound. Yeah. They very kindly included us in a playlist yesterday. Oh, I haven't heard African head charge. Those words put together in like 20 years. Did they put us on the...

No, they didn't put us on the speaker. These are amazing, amazing records. They really, really are. Whose records? They're their records. African head charge, yeah. Original ones they put out have been reissued. But they were kind enough to include us in this, like, you know, kind of like a Spotify,

like here are the people that influenced them and were influenced by them. But of course, because our band is not on Spotify. Right. There are two tracks that don't play. The David Byrne track. The Byrne and you know, track doesn't play because he pulled everything. Did he?

Yeah. Oh, that's a shame. Oh, that would explain why I never hear any Byrne and you know, on, no, no, David Byrne. Oh, David Byrne. He pulled it. Yeah. Is he no stuff on there?

That's a good question. I don't know. I feel like he get, he by convinced Byrne, my convinced, you Yeah, not even. Is he no stuff on there? That's a good question. I don't know. I feel like he get hit by convinced burn my convinced, you know, to pull. I feel like I would hear more because I should, but anyhow, okay, anyhow, I don't know. I can open up and find out. No, it's not important. I mean, it's still the only slightly important. I can look.

And then we're not on there. And, uh, I mean, that's also the worst, by the way, when to me, as a playlist, and you're like, oh, yeah, it's missing these things because they just happened on a deal with with the inevitable. Yeah, no, the label. It's got. It seems to have some email. Okay. It seems to have some really bad email records. Does it have the good ones? Yeah, I don't know. What do you consider what do you consider the good ones? I'm curious. You know, the ones from the 70s. Taking Tiger Mountain and the winch and everything up through the, you know, the, I love all four of the ambient records. Yeah. I can't listen to the first one because it makes me cry. But then everything makes me cry.

Now, that's a problem. Maria, I will tell you that that,, just constantly, I'm just like, you're just crying. I find that I get very teary eyed on planes no matter what's going on. It could be music, it could be a film, it could be like a rom-com that I'm watching. Something about the altitude definitely fucks with me.

I think I'm also usually on a plane in like the middle. I think I've talked about this before on the podcast. I'm on the plane like at late at night and everybody's sleeping and I don't sleep on planes that well. And so I'm up watching a movie. And it's like one of those weird things where it's like in the Langleurs where everybody's sleeping and that's how they end up in the, I don't want to spoil the Langleurs for anybody. It's a Stephen King book.

It was also made into a movie for TV with starring Bronson Pinchot of all people who played the guy with the accent on What the fuck was the name of that show? cousins crazy cousins Perfect strangers perfect strangers as a day of the show Strangers or it's like the guys cousin from some weird country shows up It was a very popular show in the 80s that I haven't thought about in a very long time Oh my god, and anyway to bronze a pin shows in the 80s that I haven't thought about in a very long time. Oh my God. In any rate, Bronzo Pincho is in the Langeleers. He plays like a guy who's unstable.

Um, isn't he also like 48 hours or one of the big Eddie Murphy movies? Yeah, he plays like a co-cat or a drug dealer or something. Yeah. He probably, which is probably pretty close to what was going on with him at that period. It is life. It's you live. I don't know. I don't know.

And I'm not going to look, there's going to be know and I'm not gonna look. There's gonna be several things I'm not gonna look at. What's if you know so you say you know is available on Spotify. He's here. It's all here. Thank God Okay, so getting back to back on what the fuck what were we talking about before the when the door when there's a knock at the door I have no idea before your attempted murder Well, we were talking about music. Let's fast forward. Let's let's move into what we're gonna talk about music more, but You have spent a long time writing and thinking about music, not just playing it. And as I said before, I think a lot of people

know you through that. There's obviously been, in the last few months, in this month, sorry, not even the last few months, this month has been kind of a dark month from music, Dave, David Bowie died. I'm gonna also say Glen Fry died. We can talk about that because I don't know if you've written about it

or talked about it at all. But I feel like there's a strange thing where I saw somebody wrote, they wrote, you know, why are we mourning David Bowie mocking Glen Fry? And I was like, are people mocking Glen Fry? Because that seems fucked up, you know? Like, yeah. The thing about Glen Fry that's interesting is,

I mean, I don't, you can't celebrate or mock anybody's death. Like, that's not cool. But, you know, you kind of reap what you sow. The Eagles won, they won the money game. They've sold so many records and made so much money for music. Like, everything we were talking about before

about not making money, okay, they made the money, but they really lost the love game. And, I mean, they're pretty famously fry and henly are like well known to be incredibly unpleasant people. Right. Like, the way that art garfunkel, I mean, I hope I don't get sued for saying this stuff,

but I don't think you would. Like, you know what I was gonna think you would. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it.

Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it.

Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. They're also Maddick Kanye. Everyone's always so mad at Kanye. But like, they say this, do she stuff in public? I think that's jealous. It's what you're hearing through Maddick Kanye.

Yeah, probably. And they're like lawsuits, it seems like. So they, you know, people like Joe Wall, she's a apparently nice guy. But so they make this music that a lot of us didn't understand or didn't like, I didn't even really give it shit about it. But so he dies and it's like, you can't,

it's not cool to mock that. It's not cool to in some way celebrate it or turn it into like a punchline for a tweet or something, but it's also like, well, what do you expect? Like you guys, you went for the money, you made the kind of lifestyle like Margaritaville music. What do you want? Like you can't get everything.

You got all the money. They have all the money in the world. Like, they were selling, they don't also get to have the respect is what you're saying. Yeah, and then they get the money. Well, you can get the money in the respect but it's very difficult.

I mean, Bowie was not a poor dude. No, they're totally different situation though. But, you know, bad, I mean, really bad time for Glenn Friday, because you have this just like wave, it almost feels like 9-11 when everyone in New York all of a sudden was nice to each other, which was really, and I don't mean that it was a very, very specific thing to me. I lived very, we lived very close to the World Trade Center and I watched it with my son, you know, intense for everybody. But people were really lovely to each other.

It was kind of amazing. And then it stopped because it's New York. People are like, what are we doing? And we went back to being like, get out of the way, you know, like fuck you. But you know, the boi thing is so overwhelming because, well, I mean, because the wrong word, I mean, I feel like it's making people nicer to each other, which is sort of probably overstating the case, but there is so much love for this guy, and the more you look into him, the more you love him. And like when Lou Reed died, Lou is a huge thing for me. Like, Lou was like my guy.

He taught me the only person I've ever transcribed, you know, all their lyrics is Lou Reed. Favorite record? I mean, Lou, I is Lou Reed. Favorite record? I mean, Lou, of Lou Reed. On me, I, I, I could have lots. I mean, it probably develops record, probably the third one. I like street hassle for me, frankly. It's a good one.

I mean, I kind of love all of them. I even love the weird bad ones. Yeah. Um, um, I mean, that'll be sheet music. I, I love that, but I mean, that, it doesn't, I mean, next to some of the other stuff I listen to now, like it doesn't sound Lulu. Come on, man.

All right, Eddie, how? Getting back to going. Lulu. I have an interesting story about Lulu. I went to the, there was a party, actually, a couple of funny, loose stories. I won't tell all of them. I'm maybe not won't tell any of them. But anyway, the Lulu premiere was really cute

because it was at a gallery. And I think Schnabel was there. And they started to play the record, which I think is beautifully engineered as weird as it is. I think it sounds amazing. And they were playing it. And they start playing it and Lulu,

you know, it's really, he was intense about audio, super intense about audio and audio quality. And they're playing it really fucking loud for about 30 seconds and then Julian, Julian Schnabel runs into the back room and then they turn it way down and everyone just starts drinking wine and it's like every other thing that's ever happened in New York. But the cute part was Metallica and Lou Reed were there together, like all like hugging and smiling. And it's sort of like seeing Darth Vader at the beach or something. Y'all seem like the crabby as people in the world, but they were such a great way to fray. They were so happy about their record that I was like, oh, I kind of like this record now,

because you guys had such a good time and right, I mean, I've never never gonna play this record, but God bless you for a good on you for doing it. It's like happy about it. Well, being this famous, but also like you and I, and did something really weird. And like, you're not afraid of being just like, it's a good for you guys. Right. Well, that's one thing. That's one thing. That's something I value in people just like, so good for you guys. Right. Well, that's one way to look at something of value. And people is like, we are not afraid of being just like for this thing. That's a, it's a magnanimous way to look at it.

It's like, you know, I think that's, I don't know. I think they, I mean, I think sometimes there's not, there's not a subject. I think they actually enjoyed doing this weird thing together. And it just happens to sound really strange to the rest of us. Oh, I think they actually enjoyed doing this weird thing together and it just happens to sound really strange to the rest of us. Oh, I think that's definitely true. I actually think the worst sounding music is probably the most fun to play and most fun

to make. I mean, I've actually, I think all the time when I hear something I don't like, and by the way, look, I'm, it's all a matter of taste, right? I mean, ultimately, it's no empirical data that suggests that Lulu is a worse record than any other record that exists. But I think it's better. Right, it definitely is. I mean, I just say it's like it is down to what is your preference.

But I mean, until, until Lou starts doing his thing, the guitar sound amazing. But I just think that, I just think I hear music, bad music, and I'm like, but it must be so fun, so much fun to play this and do this because it just it sounds like the people who are usually sounds like the people are really into it, even if I don't know, you know, it's it look there's music that's more fun to play than it is here, I think, and a lot of times like that. What was that band, uh, Carolina Rainbow, you remember them? No, not at all. They're weird. I'm getting a, their name is even longer than that. It's like Carolina or banana rainbow scramble. And they would like hand

design every copy of their record came with like pieces of paper and paint and stuff. And they were just a crazy, uh, like psychedelic, weirdo San Francisco band. It was around the same time of an amazing, amazing band, thinking fellers union local, 282 is the full name, but you know, thinking fellers who I saw a bunch in their early 90s and we're absolutely stunning. They often play to all men dresses,

some of them women, some women, but they well wear wear dresses. Forward thinking. They were so, so good live. But Carolina rainbows in their orbit, you know, you know the band, it's like friends with the great band, but they're no good. So I would buy these records at other music or wherever and Kim's and maybe like, man, it's going to be sick.

It's going to be intense. And they were just terrible. They were just terrible. Do you buy the record site? I mean, by them having not heard them? and it's gonna be sick, it's gonna be intense. And they were just terrible, they were just terrible. Do you, you would buy the, you would buy the record site, I mean, by them having not heard them. Well, I only did it a couple of times because then I was like, okay, I love you guys

for existing, but you're not the thinking fellers and like, this is just bad music, but it sounded, they were probably having a great time, like, excuse me. I mean, it's fine, just going like, like, sorry, that's not, probably having a great time like I used to I mean it's fine like Sorry, no, that sounds pretty good to me actually that sounds like my big better than Pretty caretaker. I remember what is the who what is the email newsletter that used to come out? Was it a me but or somebody would send it wasn't a me but somebody else was

Aquarius used to send this newsletter this mat was it once a week or once Aquarius you used to send this newsletter this mat was it once a week or once Once a week and it would be like new releases then it'd be some weird shit and reissues and I bought so many records based on The descriptions of the records. Oh, yeah, and I was like yeah, this sounds amazing But to think about now like in our world that we live in the idea that like site unseen or on sound unheard you would Say give me I'm gonna pay $14 or $15 for that white unseen or on sound unheard, you would say, give me, I'm gonna pay $14 or $15 for that. I bought this record, David Pritchard, nocturnal earthworm stew, do you know the record?

It's a crazy, no. It's a crazy like experimental thing. I think he was a Canadian dude. Did you just make up a string of words? No, that's an actual record. Look it up. David Pritchard, nocturnal earthworms do. And by the way, if I made that up,

then I've had a whole chunk of my existence has been messed with. It's a cool record. It's really weird, but I bought it on the suggestion of the Aquarius write up, but just to think about it, that would never happen. It doesn't happen now.

Nobody does that. Unless you're a huge fan, you're like, oh, yeah, I love this band. I'm going to buy whatever they do. Or, oh, I like this person. I like every project they're involved in. I mean, if you're a real hardcore music fan, you probably still do it. But people just don't think like that anymore. Like, you would never know that.

No, I don't. I mean, I went and got some vinyl this weekend, but I got reissues, but this heat... Oh, yeah. Music, I love. A guy we actually encountered in our life as we almost did a thing with Charles Hayward. And I don't know why we didn't. He came to a gig with us in London and he had his backpack. He wore it on the front of him.

And it's one of the most adorable things. It's a dance. That's advanced. No, I looked terrible, but I was like, I love that you don't mind going out in public like that. That's cool. I mean, I was actually going to ask you when you were talking about playing and you know, I remember my brother who's in, you know, in a band called tan lines now. He was in a band called Stormin's Dress in Don Caboero. And shout out to your brother. Yes, shout out to my brother, Eric. But I remember him talking he was in a bank called Stormin's Dress and Don Caballero. And... Shout out to your brother. Yes, shout out to my brother, Eric.

But I remember him talking about the percentage of people who showed up in backpacks to their shows, like in the early 2000s, and it was like kind of a thing. Like people would come in backpacks. Like, guys, there'd be guys with backpacks. That was like a thing. Or isn't it where backpacks, isn't it where backpacks came from? Backpacks rappers was kind of like born out of that culture of like dudes with backpacks. That was like a thing. Is that where backpack, is that where backpack wrap came from? Backpack wrappers is kind of like born out of that culture of like dudes with backpacks at shows. I could be wrong. But I have to admit, although like, and I was writing up at that point primarily about wrap, the backpack wrap thing a little bit confused

me because at least in New York, like I just didn't see that many people wearing backpacks. I think it was a San Francisco thing, largely. And like, I understood which rap it was. I, I know it was a backpack wrapper. Give me a name that would follow. I mean, I think like, LP, not, a, a, a, a, a, a, else not really let know, not exactly. I mean, he, he's in the world though in that world, but like Jurassic 5 dilated people's that kind of stuff.

Yeah, yeah. Prime, like anything on fondle them. Is that okay? Well, I didn't know how we can explore that, but okay, let's do this. Actually, I want to, because I do want to get to bow in on time of a couple of other things. Let's take a quick break. I'll take a quick break and then we'll be back. And we'll talk about more weird, obscure shit. I mentioned back plays before.

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I think we're going to continue that, but I do want to talk about Boi, even we started touching on Bowie, and then somehow went down a rabbit hole. But, I do wanna talk about Bowie because obviously it's a huge, I mean, I actually don't think, first of all, he seemed like a person who was never going to die. That's the first thing.

Like, he's been around for so long, and has been so good, had been so good at reinventing himself and reappearing, you know, it just felt like, oh yeah, Bowie. And also Bowie just has this kind of alien presence, you know, both crafted and otherwise that it was sort of like, oh yeah, this guy is just going to be, they're going to put him into some kind of chamber and then they'll get him out in the year 3000, he'll make a record and they'll put them back in the chamber or whatever. So it was like shocking on that level, but what really stood out to me was how much, you know, I'm not like a diehard.

I love Bowie, don't get me wrong. And I, you know, Laura and I listened to, you know, his records constantly play them for Zelda, our daughter Zelda all the time. But it wasn't, I wasn't like, you know, especially prior to my relationship with Laura, I think Laura's like the bigger fan. I didn't realize how much Bowie mattered to me on like an emotional level and on kind of like a reality level until he died.

You know, it was sort of like much more shocking and upsetting and like hard to understand and believe that I thought it would would be. And I don't really know what to attribute that to, but I mean, do you, I mean, do you feel like that's been a common reaction to it? Because I feel like it was like, I was sucker punched. Yeah, I would, I'm going to say like the same words you said in a different order, but with different characters as well. And some of this is in the writing I've already done. So I don't want to like read my own workout loud, but I was completely overwhelmed and I didn't expect it. I was out somewhere having fun.

Because I'm in this weird newspaper world, I get a text from my editor, like 11 p.m. saying, and I had just filed, it was weird because I had just published a piece about the new record. I just talked to Tony Visconti and Donnie McCaslin who made the record. It's a great record. I had written about the previous one. I had interviewed a man like, I mean, I thought he was never going to die just because he was such a New Yorker and he was out all the time.

And, you know, we knew he had the blacked artery, but there's only 69 and it seemed like he'd recovered and everything. And I get this text that he's died. And I was just completely bold over. And then I had to immediately get on the radio and start writing, which was a bit tough. And then what happened that surprised me, and it was very meaningful because my ex-wife, mother and my children, Deborah, who I'm still very close to, she was a huge bowie fan, like huge, that was her guy. And she was always reciting all the lyrics to these things, and I liked them, I love the records, but she was really inside them. She knew them. And I started just, well, I mean, it, it,

it became so overwhelming. And I started collecting so many things that I turned my Twitter account basically into like a museum just about David Bowie. I was like, I don't want to talk anymore in the world like on this platform. I don't want to say anything. Right. Like, I was trying to figure out how to get rid of it anyway, because Twitter is terrible. And I was like, wait a minute, I can just give it to David Bowie. Like, this is a way of doing something, because the more I read about him, I mean, every story was like, and then he was charming, and he was generous,

and he was curious, and he came backstage, and like, he got the trombone player in the specials. I think it was the specials he got like, it's a great story. The guy was, um, they were opening. I hope it's the specials. Um, it was the beat. It was some kind of scab in anyway. I'll edit it in the correct.

I'll just dub in a just try to do your voice and dub it later. Yeah, dub it in really badly. Yeah. There I was in London. Anyway, and he didn't know who David Bowie was and they were opening for Bowie and he comes in, he says, hey, you know, everything all right. And the whole band's like, oh my God, it's David Bowie.

But this guy, he's like older from Jamaica. And he's like, yo, where's the red stripe? We were promised red stripe. And they're like, oh my God, don't sense David Bowie. He's like, get us the beer, where's the red stripe? We were promised red stripe. And they're like, oh my god, you're like, don't sense David Bowie. He's like, get us the beer, where are the beers? And Bowie's like, hang on. And he comes back with like a big thing of red stripe. And he's like, there you go.

Oh my god, they're all like, you know? Every story is like that. It's like, he's the biggest star in the world. And he's like, hey, do you want to jump on my boss? You know? I mean, can I get the sandwich? You know what I'm saying? There's a story that was just published.

I mean, I guess Rolling Stone did a special issue. I haven't seen it yet, but there's a story, Trent Rezner did a story about how basically, but he helped him get sober. That's a good one. And I'd heard that some of my friend of mine, you know, through the grapevine, somebody said, oh, did you ever hear,

you know, like, I know Trent's thing. And I was like, oh, yeah, no, I didn't know if that was like a public thing. And maybe it wasn't until this point, but it's this kind of incredible, you just get the impression of a guy who was just really gentle and genuine and nice. And like, he wasn't, I mean, you do hear,

every time like somebody really famous and important dies, you do get the occasional like, oh yeah, he flipped the table at this dinner, he was like, you know, he yelled at somebody whatever. It's like, it hasn't been a story like that about David Bowie. You get the impression that the stories don't exist. Sort of what I meant about like Lou dying. It's like, look, I will always love that music.

But, you know, basically all you can find about Lou are terrible stories. And one of the funny things I posted in his goofy like Twitter thing there that's just about Bowie is there's an interview with who was it that guy? Pardon me, Bill Boggs. And it's from the 80s. It's around the blue math and And David, I'm sorry, we read actually says, yeah, I don't think that English people should play rock. Like he actually says, he says it with a completely straight face. He's not even trying to be

funny. Right. Right. You're like, wait a minute, dude. David Bowie made your fucking career. Yeah. He produced Transformer, you ditch it. Yeah. Like you guys are friends. Right. And then like later, later when he's not as much of an asshole and you meet Lori and he becomes a little bit more friendly, although not a lot, you know, their pictures of him and Bowie and you're like, what a dick. Yeah. Like you get you get the impression. Lou Reed was a guy who didn't have a laugh that often. He wasn't like, maybe he was. I don't know, his music is very sarcastic, but it's not very like funny.

All right, I was around him three. Oh no, he was laughing at the Lulu thing. He looked happy, but the one time I interviewed him, we talked about my recorder because he was way into the audio aspect of it. And he was, to be honest, he was friendly about that. He wanted to know about this piece of gear I had. And then an assistant said, and this, I'm sure, you know, this moment, you know, he was like, uh, it's been 30 minutes times up. And Lou just stood up without a word and walked away. And you said, at that moment,

they're like, Oh, oh, that's okay. We have more to talk. We'll do, let's do one more question, then we'll say, I don't know. He was done. Yeah. Bowie would have been like, listen, forget about the time limit. Let's go get some lunch. Do you want to act in my apartment?

I can make you painting. Do you know the onion? You know there's an onion article. I'm sure you've read it by now. They did a story a few years ago where it was like, it's like him talking to him on about dinner. It's just basically like David Bowie, you know, the provocative, you know, the provocative British performer, you know, who once was found, you know, whatever, like some weird thing, you know, as you know, checked the refrigerator. See if there was any leftover pasta sauce. Yeah. It's amazing. It's kind of an amazing, but it is, like you see there's that picture of him,

the real famous picture of him, walking down the street with a bunch of papers and giving the finger to the photographer, where he's like wearing a pair of shorts and like a track suit or a track jacket or something. I got that in the feed, yep. Yeah, that's a great one. But you know, it just seems like a really genuine guy,

but I think that, but his work is also staggering. And this is something that like, I by the way, I was laying in bed. I'm sure he has these stories. You told me you're 11 o'clock story, and I was just thinking, oh yeah, it was two in the morning. I was getting in bed.

I stayed up late doing something stupid, like watching TV or something. And I was getting into bed, and I was like about to put my phone down. I just like glanced at Twitter. And I saw the thing, and I'm like, this is a fucking hoax. Like it just looked like a hoax,

the way it popped into the feed. And I had to sit, I'm like, this is a fucking hoax. Like it just looked like a hoax the way it popped into the feed. Right. And I had to sit, I sat there, you know, for a few minutes. And I was just like, all right, what's, like, let me figure out. And I started like poking around and looking. And it's like, it became very real, very quick. And, um, and I was like, should I wake Laura up? Like, you know, I was just sitting there like, this is great crap. It does happen. Uh, and I think she did eventually wake up. I can't remember. I can't, but it was like, but is great. Craved at this happened. And I think she did eventually wake up,

I can't remember. But it was like, but the thing about it is, the first thing I thought of the morning after, reading all this stuff and seeing all this stuff was like something that was not pointed out. Maybe has now been pointed out, you just made mention of it. And something I think is very, very unique

and special about Bowie is that he was like a behind the scenes guy on a lot of really important records. He was like a voice or like a hand on a knob or whatever like at behind like records that other people love and probably don't many people don't realize like how deeply involved he was. I think a lot of people in the music world do, but I think it's interesting, that's a very rare quality. Eno is a person who can be in front and behind and do amazing things. There's not a huge list of people like that in the music world. His stuff was really broad

in scope and ambition, both personally and for his work and also. So it was just this thing where I was just thinking about how much his impact was not just about, like, oh yeah, he was this amazing character who had this career and wrote these amazing songs. It was like, he actually was involved in records that like transformers a great example. Yeah, that's like a really important record.

And you don't immediately go like, oh, that's Bowie, right? You don't, somebody else's record. You, I mean, go like, oh, that's Bowie, right? You know, it's somebody else's record. You, I mean, a couple of things for you to mind. I mean, this, one of the simpler ways to say it is that it's rare to have somebody die and you get into the stories and each one is more charming and adorable and inspiring. I mean, not to get, not to get cheesy about it, but what started happening to me in the last couple of weeks is I was like, shit, like, I want to be like this guy. I want to be able to be that gracious and that generous and that curious all the time.

Because every story is about him being that guy. There's an adorable interview. I linked to it one point from like 1972. And you know, there's this initial incredibly purient reaction to people like him, and Alice Cooper, not that they were the same, but they were being written about it at the same time, you know, with makeup and stuff.

And you get this sweet guy on TV. He's just gotten into the Ziggy thing and he's got a big earring on and the red hair. And the interviewer is looking for some kind of, you know, salacious weirdness from him. The kind of thing you would get from a Iggy pop will be like panting and bleeding. And that's, there's a great Tom Snyder interview. But then he, Iggy like totally owns Tom Snyder who who's like condescending and being like, oh my

god, who are you? He's like, well, you know, it's like Apollonian and Dionysian. And Tom Snyder's like, what? Anyway, that's Iggy, but back in Bowie in this interview, he's so sweet. He's so friendly. And the guy is like wanting him to be this outrageous Johnny Rotten type. And right, you know, this before Johnnyten, but, you know, he's just, he's such a, a sweetheart. And the more you go into these stories, the more you get of that, and then the more you go into the records, the better they become. And what I ended up thinking was, A, how can I, how can I be more like, Bowie, impossible?

Right. Also the most beautiful man ever. I mean, beautiful man, just beautiful, human. Exactly. But I mean also, like physically as people go, like what the fuck? Yeah, no, no, I mean, I mean, he made a beautiful, like he would make a beautiful woman is what, I mean, he's got like, he has the perfect, like this, but kind of perfect. I mean, I actually think Bowie's features and his looks are like kind of the model for like the

most like the beautiful androgynous sort of like that's how we think of like androgyny as beautiful is like very much like Bowie. If we're going to go into the whole singularity thing and we're going to start like bioengineering things, let's basically do Bowie. Yeah. Let's all just choose that because I I mean, really, actually, you know, when you think about it, Justin Bieber, a similar situation, beautiful man, beautiful woman, maybe the perfect, you know, Bieber and Bowie probably features wise, probably have a few things in common.

Now that I think of it... I'm still going to choose, he's a very attractive young man. I'm going to still go for Bowie, though. No, I get it. I'm just saying that there's a kind of universal appeal. Look, there's no comparison in terms of, as an artist or a human, but zero is fact there could not be on further ends of the polls.

But, there are people I dislike more than Justin. I'm kind of okay with that. I've come around to Bieber. I'm a believer now. That's my new thing is that, all it took was the right producers to make his music palatable. I think, I don't know. I like baby. I thought baby was good. I don't believe her now, that's my new thing, is that. All it took was the right producers to make his music palatable. I think, I don't know, I like baby, I thought baby was good.

I don't know, I think all of his, I have to say, I find everything that he's done up until this latest record, grading and unbasically unlistenable, which is strange because I like pop music a lot, a lot, but the new record is like a different, whole different story, but it's not, it's not because Justin Bieber is so great. Back to Bowie for a second. Yeah, back to Bowie. The thing that I thought was, I definitely do not need more coffee.

The thing that I thought, there was the sort of spiritual aspect like, I want to, you know, here I am in LA and whatever, recreating myself and that's just some personal nonsense. sort of spiritual aspect like I want to, you know, here I am in LA and, you know, whatever, recreating myself and that's just some personal nonsense. But I was like, damn, and it's funny because Bowie ended up hating LA. That's where he had his very bad cocaine period and he later said that he thought it should be wiped off the face of the earth.

Oh, one, the one dark moment from Bowie. Yeah. Yeah, it's one of the few negative things he said related to LA. I think that makes him cooler. I think, generally speaking, that means that he's even cooler that may previously had, I got, I got a, I'm, I'm, I'm here now. I have to wear, I love LA. I mean, that's, I, I, I differ on the opinion of LA, but I understand

how one could have it. Maybe 1975 LA did need to be wiped off the map. Who knows? Probably it probably did. But then when I started playing, and this is the bar room game that gets ugly, especially with dudes, but like you get into the Dylan Beatles thing, but I started thinking about his career, which is essentially 50 years, okay? It's a long career.

And he ends, I mean, it's two very good records. And in fact, if the next day have been produced a little bit better, I think it would be an amazing piece of work because it's a songwriting is so good. But like, I think he might be like the guy. If we're going to give it to somebody, I forget all these other, well, now I mean, if you have to choose one guy, it's a dumb idea. It's a dumb game. Like, don't, don't choose one or the other. Choose Bowie. Well, if you had to choose one, oh, if you had to choose one of all, I mean, who's in the

running? Who's in the running? Well, really, who's in the running? You know, Arifist, Stevie, the Beatles, Dylan, Prince, did it, did it, did it, did it, did it, did it, you're saying the greatest. Yeah, I mean, like, the greatest of all time, Michael, um, yeah, like, man, like, if you're going to play that game, um, and it's a game because it's a dumb game. It's not Dylan. It's not Dylan. I'm not saying it's Dylan.

I mean, I'm Prince. I think Prince. Such a bad person though. The worst. I don't know. I'm not saying it's Dylan. I mean, I'm prince. Prince. Such a bad person, though, the worst. I don't know. I don't know. I kind of like Prince. I don't know him. I do. He seems great. He seems great to be. No, he's not great. He's not great. Who else? Michael, I mean, Michael too much. It's too much. I mean, that's a tough one. That's a tough one. I mean, Michael, you know, Michael, amazing. But you look at what really, really, really, really start to see the breakdown is like the

later years of all of these artists, you're like, yeah, but Dylan's been making bad records for like, I don't know, maybe you like some of his newer stuff, but I don't, I'm not listening to it. That's not my thing. I feel like it's 20 years at least of 25 years of just like not good music. I mean, the most blasphemous thing I can say is I just, I don't even really care. Traveling wheelbarris.

Will see in the traveling wheelbarris? I don't know. Yeah, I think you as that's great. That was cool. Although for a Dylan, um, for a Dylan sort of like, uh, I don't know, agnostic, uh, the thing they just released that one, uh, what the hell is? I mean, it's all been repackaged so many times. I don't know what they called it. I just think of it because Remnik wrote about

it and called it the hot hand. But that moment where he's electric and makes like a hundred albums in, you know, in the middle of the 60s, that whatever that box that they just put out is is kind of like, whoa, all right, even if you don't care that much about Dylan and I don't, it's like, whoa, all right, even if you don't care that much about Dylan and I don't, it's like that's fire. And we don't get, we don't get to count like the Beatles. We're not talking about bands here. Well, I mean, the fun part of this, the way to make the game not shouting and angry in

the way to make it more about like ideas and love. I don't know. It's for LA if you're very LA. I don't know. I might take that back. But the way to make it more fun is to move the metrics around. I have a friend that I do this with, like, go like, okay, best first three records. You know, best run, the best, you know, like streak that anyone

went on. And I think that one belongs to Prince. I think there's a period from like 78 to 88 that I think is the best 10 years anyone's ever had in terms of output. I mean, he had so much music that he had to have like seven other bands, like, you know, the family in Vanity Six and Madhouse, it's just him. I mean, he's interesting.

Is that good at that period? Have you written on this? Have you written about this? I've written about him. No, but that particular, that's interesting. I don't think so. No, it sounds, oh no. You don't think it sounds interesting or you have a written about it.

Oh, I don't think that I have no. But it's an interesting thing to, that would make a very interesting story, if told the right way. I feel like like yeah why why and how did that happen? You've talked to Prince a lot though I think. Can't do a ride around on that one. Dealing with Prince anyway. You really don't like Prince, do you? I loved him until he did something really screwed up to me. Can you talk about it? I'm actually so afraid of his litigious side

that I'm not going to talk about it. Well, God, it haven't. Now, okay. It was not cool. Okay, you'll have to tell me after we're done recorded. All you have to do is look on the internet and look for the stories and like, there are literally hundreds of stories.

Essentially torturing people. I have to, like actually physically torturing people. Like actually physically torturing people? No, mentally, but a good one. I don't care at all about Kevin Smith or his movies. No, agreed. Same. Strongly, I strongly don't care. Exactly. We're on the same page.

Which is a terrible way of just saying we agree. We agree. I'm strongly agree. But he has a half hour long story, which is very good. And he tells it very well about making an entire movie for Prince. And essentially the punchline is one of the people in Prince's camp is like, yeah, this is never going to come out. And Kevin is like, what do you mean? And he's like, yeah, there are 20 or 30 videos in the vault.

He just can put this in the vault. And he's like, what, like live videos? And they're like, no, no, no, full production costume videos for songs. And then he just doesn't put them out. Well, he made a movie with Prince. He made like a chunk of a documentary. I think they've involved a lot of talking about Christ.

Oh boy. And he filmed a bunch. With Prince. And then Prince's people were like, yeah, we're just taking this and you're done and you're not rapper releasing it. And you know, and there's a great story about him. I think it's Kim Bessinger during Batman. He was trying to flirt with her.

And because he won't talk to people, this is the thing about him. He gets people to talk to people for him because he won't. Sure. Still a thing that he does. That's a dream to me. Three times it happens to me. That's a, to me, that's, you know, you've made it when you can have other people speak for you.

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think you'd probably be nicer about it than you. You should all conversation. Anyway, the third party through this party. It's just one of the few people who apparently was like, he was like sending notes in a restaurant and he was and she was like, look, you're going to have to get up and come talk to me if you want to hit on me. Like, I know your prince, but, um, and I think maybe he actually did get up. And so I think more people need to say to him like, stop me. And asshole. Yeah, please.

She was like, look, I've heard bad dance. I'm not impressed. I think, yeah, he just, I think he had just written bad dance. It's a pretty good record. Honestly, it's a pretty good revisit. It's one of these days. Really look at it deeply. You'd be surprised what you find there. I mean, I mean, whatever. I'm just an innovative sampler sampling and work going on in that record. I love that dance. I mean, what's the actual record is called? It does a whole record is called not called bat dance, is it? That's the single. That's a single. Is it the name of the record? I could find this. I'm going to find I'm going to look it up. Batman. Isn't it just on the Batman soundtrack? It's on the Batman soundtrack as our other great tracks like 200 balloons. Great one. Where do I find this? I don't want to read the track listing right now.

The future electric chair grade track, arms of Orion with Shini Easton. You probably don't remember that. Party man. Don't remember that. Of course I remember that. Vicki, Vicki Wade-Ain. I guess some of these names are just like what you would call if you were doing into proper soundtrack. Lemon Crush. Trust.

Oh yeah, I should get away from my litigious trashing of friends and say, you know, in terms of the music, I mean, it was kind of heartbreaking to have this weird interaction with him because he would have been my choice for a long time because I mean, there's nothing I love more than about, you know, 15 years of prince. He's great. You know, one thing I want to say, totally not really related to what you just said, but I think is odd. On the Wikipedia entry for the Batman album, it has a photo of the cassette version of the album. It photo of the cassette version of the album.

It's like the cassette version of the album is in set into like the next of the track list. And it's just like a picture of the cassette out of the box just sitting on a table. It's just like, I'm trying to understand the significance of like why it would be, why like that's important to point out like it was also available on cassette. There was some debate.

There was some debate. There was some debate as to whether it really was available and here's photographic evidence that you could get the motion picture soundtrack for Batman. It is. I can tell you on side one, the future electric chair,

the arms of a Ryan party man, and Vicky Wade in all on one side of that. I'm looking at it right now. Check it out. Anyway, it's a good photo actually as far as getting back to our conversation about cassettes and CDAs. But I want to, I want to, because we're, at some point, we're going to have to wrap.

I think we have barely talked about all of the things that we want to talk about. I don't want to talk. I want to get the important things. Well, I want to talk about a couple I want to talk about the important things. Well, I want to talk about a couple of broader things and then I have a couple of just random questions for you. So my first broader question is, I'm getting this weird feeling. And I feel like you would be the foremost expert on

you can answer this question. Okay. I feel something happening in the world of music. I think it's happening. I feel like something happened in me inside of me that is like a signal that it's happening elsewhere. Yeah, it's. Is rock about to make a comeback in music?

I wouldn't, somebody just say, I think Joe, at the time, just wrote this piece. Really? Yeah. I have not read that piece. What is the piece? I just read the headline. I think it basically is what you just said. What. Really? Yeah. I have not read that piece. What is the piece? I just read the headline. It's I think it basically is what you just said. What? Really? Yeah. I'm

I'm googling this right now. Where's rock making a comeback? Something like that or something about rock. New York Times, New York Times, rock. Joe Cusco really., wrote a piece. Did I imagine it? How do you spell his last name? COS, C-A-R-E-L-L-I. COS, C-A-R-E-L-L-I. Wait, spell it again. I'm... COS. C-A-R-E-L-L-I.

I see. And I think, and I feel like Tupulsky is bad. That's a tough one. It's a tough name. I'm not seeing it. Wait a second. Wait a second. This is, this is right.

I'm looking now. Look, I know how to use a computer. I can do this. I'm looking right now. All right. I'm not looking. Look, you look too. I don't care. I mean, I'm not to use a computer. I can do this. I'm looking right now. All right. I'm not looking to look to I don't care I mean, I'm not gonna stop it, but I think you might have I think you might have imagined this I think we're just getting very contentious here. Well, I'm just saying I don't not see it

I mean, it's possible that you do a dream. Maybe this is even more evidence. Oh, sorry I may be able to use the search function. January 24th, 2016, betting that rocket. Oh, here it is. Just found it. Yeah, just found it. Now you found it. Son of a bitch, look at this.

Yeah. I'm telling you something happened. I'm trying to think of what it was. I was driving. Sure, you haven't read this. I have not read this. I have not. This is the first time I've seen it.

It's possible, I will say one of the things that happens to me now is I, something flies by me on Twitter or Facebook and I don't see it, I don't read it. I don't really recognize it, but it's there. Then it's in your head. I don't actually, but I don't actually recall seeing this and what I will say is, I don't know what it was I was driving in the car the other day and something came on. Oh, you know what Apple music is playing?

The beats radio people are like, I think they're pushing rock in a weird way that it seems very strange to me. Where they're playing like savages, I wanna say. And it was like in middle of the day, you know, it was like they just played, I don't know what they had played. Let's just imagine what they had just played previously.

I wanna say it was a Megan Trainor track or something or let's say it was something a little edgy or it was, whoever the deep bags are that did a song with Adam Levine, R city, maybe one of the worst bands of all time. Wow. That's a deep cut. Have you heard of our city?

Yeah, I have. They're fucking terrible, right? Have you ever listened to their music? You know, no, I'm glad. Yes, and I'm glad that you finally came up with, I was having this problem. I had a conversation with somebody, and I was like, you know, there's not really

a really terrible band, because everyone's got one good song. And like, no, no, no, no. These guys have a hit. They have a hit, but it's disgusting. And whoever did this song, shut up and dance. There's also terrible. They should be playing jail. Oh, no, no, no.

There is that band that, who did that magic song? Are you talking about? No, sorry. No, rude. No, that's a great, that's a great song. Reads great, great, great, great. That's a great, that's a great song. Roots great, great. Great, great song in terms of being the worst song ever. It's not the worst song ever.

It's actually like, you know, my brother and I had a conversation about politics of the lyrics. I hate it. It's okay. The politician in a politically in terms of, lyrically, it is bankrupt and awful. Okay, there's no question. I think that should be the point of which we throw it out. No, but but but sonically, musically,

my brother pointed out something to me because I was like, this song is fucking terrible. And he was like, it's kind of insane and amazing that song is on the radio and all the people are like, that's a hit song, given the current climate of music. And it gave me a different kind of appreciation. Look, in the grand scheme,

what are they like a Canadian reggae, like rock, reggae, rock band? Like in the grand scheme of, they are like a bear naked ladies light Like you know in terms of their Importance and music and the quality of the music happen like Canadian reggae like like you know how it happens right You know because of their fucking socialist mandate to put Canadian music on the radio. Oh, yeah They do that's true. They have like, has be 40% Canadian or whatever? France has the two.

France. Somebody should have a ban called 40% Canadian, by the way. You're going to France, the radio right now, I can tell you what the radio is. It's going to be three French songs and then Lenny Krabitz because they love Lenny Krabitz. He's what's not to love. He's very sexy. Oh, my. Have you seen his furniture line?

It's CB2. Very good stuff. I have it's glam without being over the top But in the prices anybody can afford CB two CB two not a sponsor of the pot Yes One amazing record. I don't remember any I mean he has got his his stuff from the like what late 90 early 2000 When was he popular? I don't remember like I Like, I think they're 90s, right? Late 80s, 90s, right? When did he do?

When did he do? It ain't over till it's over. Uh, and that's the one they plan for in radio literally once and out. That's not gonna do Google any crappets right now. See, now this is when they, this is, we've loosened up now. We spent that first hour.

Now the cop podcast is really taking off. The record that you're referencing, hold on a second, discography. It's the one with like the future light typeface on the front, the blackboard. Mama said, 91, let love rule, 89. They're not level, let love rule is terrible. No, it's the second record.

Oh, it's, it's Mama said. Yeah. Wait, what was the track you were talking about? Oh, and it over and it's over. Yeah, that's right. 14 tracks on that. It's correct. Maybe not perfect.

It ends with the combo of track 13, what the fuck are we saying? And 14, butterfly, which I don't think is a cover of the great track, butterfly by another name. What's the name of the band? It's completely escaping me right now. I don't know. I'm sorry. I me right now. Uh, I don't know. I'm sorry.

I'm letting you down here. I had a, is that, uh, is it butterflies? Is that the, is this track from the 90s? There's a phenomenal track way, way, way at, um, Marsha and Brogius, what we're, they called that Michael track butterflies that, um, no, that duo wrote, That's an incredible vocal performance. A butterfly I'm thinking of the hold on. I didn't even like sugar. Crazy town. No, crazy town. Very close to very close to sugar.

I know. I crazy town in sugar. Crazy town sugar. They're like one man. I've never ever going to be able to tell. And then I'm going to say smash mouth and I'm never going to get it right. That's right. Zola same speaking. Oh, speaking of things that are morally indefensible, but amazing sounding. I think the most recent example of this being kind of like a real big moment for that, the kind of dissonance is, so hotline bling. Yeah.

Okay. Controversial take come in. No, I don't think it's controversial. A lot of people hate it. A lot of people love it. I don't think you can be all that controversial. But it's a thing where the vocal shape, first of all, you got this amazing sample of the Timi's Hamas.

Yeah. Music is real nice. Very smooth. Yeah, it is real nice. Very smooth. Yeah, it's very pleasant. And then he goes in and out of these voices in this incredibly cool way. And he, like every single part of it is catchy. And then he has this amazing dancing in the video that I love. But then, you know, the lyrics are incredibly like, no, it's not okay. Say, hey, person that I used to date, I don't approve of what

you're doing now. Yeah, I actually realized I was listening to it late at night and I actually tweeted about him, like, this is actually really like a mansplaining kind of song. Like, he's sort of like, you don't have to do this, you know, you don't have to act sexy. And it's like, fuck you, like, it's not your business. You've left. I think it's much worse than man. No, it's, it's, it's worse than mansplaining, but there are elements of it.

I was like, I didn't realize this at first, but it's kind of a dick in the song. It's kind of like the definition of like, who asked you? Right. I keep imagining a woman on the other end of the phone being like, wait a minute, first of all, you've got this dumb pun. Like, I know in that hotline bling.

Yeah. Okay, fine. All right, so you think it's gonna be about booty calls, but then it's not. It's him being like, okay, by the way, like that email you get that you're like, what the fuck is this person talking about? Like why? Right. Are you telling me that you don't improve what I'm doing now?

Like, I did not ask you. Right. I agree. And but then, okay, but then back, sonically, the way, you know, you know, and then he'll do the smooth voice and then he'll do sort of like one in the middle. My favorite part is the part where he's like you used to use and it sounds like he's just warming up. Yeah, he's just kind of like playing with the words like he's not actually ready to sing. He's just like getting warmed up to sing. And then he structures it that way that he begins each verse using that same weird

And then that's like if there were a cartoon version of Drake that would be That would be the song, but then he goes into that other voice, you know, and It's you know as a construction of sound. It's really cool, but I mean You don't like you don't like the message. You can't go around saying that stuff to people. You don't like what it says to young ladies out there and trying to make it in the world. Can I say something about Drake?

I don't like Drake. I'm not a big Drake fan. I'm just probably unpopular to say. I don't really enjoy much of his music. I'm not saying like, it just doesn't do anything for me. There's a couple of tracks. I'm like, yeah, this is all right. It just, like, when, if you're reading this too late, came out, my brother was like, dude, this is all right. It just like, when, if you're reading this too late,

came out, my brother was like, dude, this is the fucking so advanced. This is like the, this is, you know, he was very into it. And I was like, I just don't, I'm not feeling this. Like it just isn't doing anything for me. But one thing I'll say about Drake, this song, I will say, steps out of this in many ways

based on what you're, you know, the thing that you're talking about, this sort of like, misogyny patriarchy aspect of it. He just seems like cool, just really very cool, like much cooler than most people. Like there's something about him, somehow he's managed to project into the world. He's like a guy who was undigrassied, also Canadian, right?

Just to be clear, it's like a dude who was undigrassied high, which is not cool, has somehow managed to turn himself into, he just strikes me as an exceptionally cool guy, like he's the coolest guy in whatever room he's in. And I don't know how that's possible, because I don't particularly care for any of his music or like, I don't think he's like a genius artist or whatever.

It's like all these co-signs and stuff, where I'm just like, yeah, whatever. I could seem like he's just, he's used as a mechanism to continue seeming cool, but it's working. I can be rough. I don't know, I don't know what I think of Drake other than...

He really should have an opinion. This is your space. I know, I should have an opinion. I think, I probably at some point I'd end up an opinion because I had to have one. I mean, I... Well, you made your article from 2013. Exactly.

I'm sure I said something. See if I can find something. Oh, man. He seems really, really smart to me. That's, I don't know if he's cool. Like, if he dies, are we going to hear stories about him being generous? Are we going to hear stories about him like,

and then like Drake kicked my baby or something. Like Chris Brown, like Chris Brown, like how is anyone gonna rehabilitate Chris Brown when they have to write a biography of him? I don't know. You read about him in 2011 for The New Yorker. I did, about Drake. The fame monster.

Well, you lead the story with it, I don't know. Your pop artist known as Drake has become one of the most interesting stars of the moment and has done it in an unusual way. I could keep going if you want, does this really matter? Oh, I'll go hold this about him. Yeah, yeah, oh no, I think I remember right. The typical route to pop innovation is to introduce alien or aggressive sounds or provoke

people who would otherwise have paid no attention, but Drake's music has become more subtle over time. This is actually perfectly in line with what we're talking about. His brilliant, brilliant new album, this is your word, these are your words, take care of sounds and passing, like Gazi R&B and occasionally, and be an electronic music, which is by the way he's stuck with for a long time, because that's the way how, that's how,

if you're reading this to it's too late, it sounds to me. You know, anyhow, you go on to just, he prays on the record and his rise to fame. I did like that record. Well, I think I was fast. If I remember what I said, and it sounded brilliant, what I wrote, um, it's a good. And at the end here, you do say, although he seems like just another part of the patriarchy who's spewing hate filled anti, anti woman lyrics into the into the universe. Surprisingly, you really were ahead of the curve on that. I'm kidding, you didn't write that.

Oh, I didn't say that. I think, I don't think you would have kept it off like that. If I remember what I said, and I don't necessarily, I think what is fascinating to me, no, now I remember. And I think this is interesting. And we have to give him credit for this is, especially with rappers, like being super sensitive and admitting

to screwing things up was just like, has never been anybody's lane. And that's his lane. He came up with that. He's like, hey, I'm not exactly like a love man. I'm here to tell you like, wow, I'm anxious and like, wow, like I miss you and I screwed up and I have all these fears. And I don't think anyone really owns like a rapper with feels.

I think I think he is the feels rapper. Yeah. And he paved the way for other feels rappers and actually we're living in the world of all the feels now now. I mean, I actually think Justin Bieber is not that he's a rapper of course, but his reclaiming of any position of of respect or or even like attention in pop music is based around the character of a guy with regrets and who's anxious and is you know, screws up and is just trying to just trying, you know, figure it out like the rest of us. And I think the Drake definitely, I mean, I think you capture that. I think that's, I think that's true.

Although, um, that's a very modern, isn't what do you mean a little bit creepy? Uh, it's a slightly rapy, I think there's parts of it to feel like, yeah, is it maybe, uh, but also I think he's dealing with a very confusing situation. Also, I don't think Justin's that smart. So, I think he's not great at picking up on the subtlety of the conversation that he's having. You know, I think he may be literally confused

about what the person is saying to him. Also, the video is creepy because it's like, hey, I'm gonna make kidnapping romantic. It's like, no, you're terrified this woman. No, it's cool. He just wanted to use an intense situation to bring them closer together. So he highly manipulated and also very violent

and scary situation. But at the end of the day, everybody was just said a party. So it was okay. That's my technique back when I stayed. He could have said, hey, do you want to go to the half pipe with me and we'll have fun? And instead he he pays for a kid napping a lot of work It's a lot of work on everybody's part leg was almost there, you know He's involved seems like more trouble than necessary to get a girl. Especially if you're Bieber. I don't feel like

Anyhow, but no, I do think but I will say like what you talk about in 2011 about Drake and what is true about Drake And now true about and I think maybe this is getting back to the rock thing is that music has gotten really mellow Like really chill like something's happened in the last two years in music And I like it because I'm a guy who actually like I like ambient music and I like repetitive music and like you know Crowdrock like if you listen to like I mean my favorite like know, or somebody like Michael Roth or I don't know if you have how deep you are on like, crowdy stuff, but like, some of that stuff is like basically smooth. It's like smooth music. I go deep.

Hey, you're talking to a guy in one of those bands. Right. Okay, so you're familiar with Michael Rother's work. Yes. And his solo work, which is like bordering on comical. It's so smooth. Yeah. But I like that. And music has gotten really smoothed out.

Like all of the hard edges have been removed. And like I think sorry, the stuff that Justin Bieber's been doing, the new Drake stuff, I mean, Hotline Bling is a perfect example. There is still like hyper pop music. There's still like Taylor Swift or whatever, which sounds like, you know, everybody was doing Coke when they made the music, but that's like a product of, I think that's like a real like pop product that's sort of dying. And the new, and the new pop sound is like much, much different, much more. It's like kid A, it's like kid A

has finally made its way to like the radio, you know, weird way. If you listen to, like, think about the sonic textures of a record like Kite, and then think about some hotline bling, they're not wildly dissimilar. I think you might be right. I mean, who knows. I'm not the expert. You're the expert. I'm just... No, no, no.

Well, it's a pontificate in here. It just depends what we're talking about. I think you're right if we're talking about very, very popular music, but I mean, you know, we also are seeing like, to get back to your rock thing, like, yes, well, that's where I wanted to get back to. No, savages and bands like that are around. I think the difference here, I'm going to use my kids and this is annoying in the world of reporting when you use your, hey, right what you know. There's that thing where like you'll see in a piece something like, it happens in New Yorker sometimes, like a child of 12 and like what it really means is like my kid, when

I took into my kid to the museum but my kids their entire World of Understanding music is through hip hop. That's what that's their soil. That's really all they care about and If you grab their phone or their iPods, nobody has an iPod anymore. Actually no Jonah has a shuffle There's just there is no guitar rock. Right. Right. None. None. So, rock is back. No, I'm not saying it's back yet. Maybe. Could it come back? Is it coming back? I feel something like there's like a disturbance in the force. I mean, but I mean but jazz used to be like, you know,

really part of the conversation. Like, and it's sort of coming back in a way that's pretty cool, but like, you don't get to come back really the same size necessarily, you know? Like, bitches, brew sold like a million copies. He was in the cover of Timeback. Did it really? Yeah, but just brew was huge. Headhunter's was huge, it really? Yeah, but it was huge.

Headhunter was huge. Jazz was popular, popular music. So you feel like we've gone away from that and we're not going to go back to it. Popular music won't return to the sound of the guitar. Well, the reason this is difficult is like, do we even have popular music? We have such a, I mean, genre has broken down so far. I was saying this the other day to somebody, I actually did a very long interview that seems to have

disappeared and maybe did this interview for no reason. With this hip hop site, this one will appear, this will appear. Thank you. I was a little bit ticked off, but whatever. Um, like look at the Drake, meek mill fight. I think this is sort of like, um, an analogy for how taste works now. Um, meek mill and Drake, they have a rap beef, they try whatever meek is not as good Drake kind of wins. But at the same time, nobody really, really cares

the way they cared, you know, in the like, there were enough people to have a nose camp and a jazzy camp. There was enough, enough money, enough bodies in the room to have like an actual beef. Like, people would be on one side of the other. Now, like, because the resources of all shrunk and everyone listens to everything at the same time, like nobody really can care in the same way, meaning that if meek came out with a really killer track right now, okay? Even if you were the biggest Drake fan, you'd be like, oh, that's great. And you do put it on your playlist and you'd be fine.

Nobody has that kind of investment to pick a side anymore. You know, it's not like back when you would get beaten up for being a punk or like someone that kind of investment to pick aside anymore. It's not like back when you would get beaten up for being a punk or someone would scream at you for playing rap, which they did. I'm old enough to tell you that that rap thing lasted like a long time. People were saying really messed up stuff about rap

for a long time. Yeah. I was there at the, one of the only, it might, this is my, you know, LCD, um, what's that? Um, sounds awesome. Ah, losing my edge moment, you know, the only real, I was there a moment I can say was I was at the, the, the, the class show at Barnes, where Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five came out and people were screaming

the N word and they were like, it was bad. Really? And I was, I was there with two friends and we listened to rap and I kind of thought, you know, I mean, the classroom basically making rap. They had a magnificent seven was on WBLS. Right. And I was like, oh, we all get this, right? Like, it's't complicated, right? We all dig this. And uh, do you know the, do you know the rap rap? I can use termilist that they made with, um, uh, future 2000? Yeah.

Have you ever heard that record? I'm, I own that record. I, I also own the record. A friend of mine interviewed Futura and was like, as I was asked about, he's like, if you want to keep doing this interview, you won't ask me about that record again. Yeah, I don't remember being very good at all. It's bad, it's bad.

Actually the beats, like the track is actually kinda good. Mm-hmm. The vocals are not. Let's put it that way. Anyhow, sorry, I don't mean to sidetrack, yeah, just pop. No, no, no, no, no, I was trying to, I remember the, it was on silly Lloyd, right? Well, I don't remember. I don't mean to sidetrack. Yeah, I just popped up. No, no, no, no, no, I was trying to remember the, it was on silly Lloyd, right?

Well, I don't remember. I don't remember. I could go find it. I have it somewhere sitting on a shelf, somewhere next to me, but. I have not heard it in a very, very long time. I'll find it. I sampled it for something.

It pretty good groove, actually. It was like musically kind of good. I'm gonna find it. I'm sure it's on Spotify or something. Probably not, actually. What the hell was the name of it? It was called... I don't remember the name. I'm just gonna look. And then I have... We're gonna have to wrap up unfortunately. Hold on a second. Oh the Escapades of Future of 2000. Yeah, that's right. They got pretty creative. Oh, it's kind of dubby. Yeah. It's dubby. It's cool. It's future

2000 in his ass capes. Right. Um, the beat's good. It's good beat. It's good beat. And it should be, I sampled it for something. But somebody real should sample it. Yeah, he's yelling is really not good. Future. It's my name. And I say graph feedie. It's when I got my thing. But it's really not good. You sure? I'm just my name and I say graph feedie. It's when I got my thing, but it's not my thing that I'm here to claim. I want to tell the real story about my game. Did they do, do they, do they, I mean,

because it's celluloid that makes me think, I'm still like this, I'm going to wonder if like did Lazio actually really do the beat or something? It's very possible. Um, clash of tears. So what's one what, what, what's one of the big things we wanted to talk about? Oh, that I more basically talk, we were talking about the rock thing,

there's a thing I want to talk about. The, we talked about Bowie, but there's not enough time to really go into all of the things. And then there was just a couple of other little things that I was going to ask you, that were like really dumb. I'm going to ask them now before we end this. Go ahead.

There's more we can talk about. We have to, what have to do this again? Future is 60 years old now before we end this. There's more we can talk about. We have to do this again. Future is 60 years old now. Time has a way of making the massive everything. My birthday is on Sunday. Tell me about it. How do you want to talk about how old you're going to be? No, I don't want to talk about that at all. It's very cool. An aging is very uncool as any as any gray rock and roller will tell you. That's an interesting topic. Here is the thing. I'm going to say this quickly and then you can get to your questions. But so I mean, one of the reasons that Twitter is so terrible is everyone's mad about everything and a lot of the anger is like, okay, we get it. We know that

the bad thing is bad. Like we don't need need eight million of you saying it. And it gets really, it gets really fucking exhausting. Um, but on the other hand, the things that people are mad about are genuinely terrible. And it's probably a good thing that we, you know, talk about how terrible they are. So like, I'm kind of okay with it, but like, I don't need to hear it a million times. Um. Right. Well, it's a great machine for outrage and manufactured outrage. Well, it's, it mean, and the one thing that makes it completely valuable is, you know, it was, it basically is police brutality TV. It is the one place where unfiltered we see all of the stuff that then on the nightly news would be completely watered down.

Right. And, but, you know, people posting from Ferguson and all of the stuff that then on the nightly news would be completely watered down. Right. Right. But you know, people posting from Ferguson and all of that. And it's valuable. If that's all we ever get out of Twitter, great. Right. But the one thing while we're having this kind of like political correctness kind of like super storm, you know, right now, which is in some ways cool. It's like, it's good that

people are calling out a lot of things they're calling out, but the one thing that is totally okay on the internet is ageism. It's totally okay to make fun of somebody for being old or looking old. And I'm like, it's not just because I'm getting older, but like, that's fucked up. Yeah. I mean, is it okay? I feel like people I know wouldn't, it wouldn't strike them as okay or in a lot of people I know. I am, I am constantly shocked at how many times I see somebody being mocked simply for

being old or they'll post a picture and they'll be like, oh my God, look what this person looks like. And it's like, yeah, they look like they got old. Like you're going to get a two-dip shit. Yeah. And it's the, yeah, well you're living in the land of people who are denying age. I mean, in now LA is like a place where age is so forbidden.

I don't know. People look like, in the middle of that. I mean, I long that, it didn't interrupt you there. I'm not sure. Along that axis, I don't think LA and New York are that different. They're very different in a bunch of other ways, but in terms of people getting work done and all that kind of thing, people just get surgery now. It's crazy.

It's crazy the way human beings are starting to look. I mean, I think it's really one of the saddest things in the world when I see people who would be naturally aging with like plastic surgery that makes them look like aged. I see young people who look aged beyond their years because they've had plastic surgery. Exactly. It's makes you look weird. It's like in star wars, like.

It's unnatural. I mean, I look, I'm not going to shame anybody's choice. It's like, do whatever you want with your body and if she feels good, then great. Yeah. But it's very unnerving. And I mean, I mean, right, it actually carries fishers a person

who, I mean, somebody who was dealing with this age, just like the age stuff and the look stuff. And I mean, to me, I actually didn't stand out to me as much. I mean, I do know, it seems like she's had work, but it's more like, I don't think it's like, I'm saying this person looks ugly or whatever. I just think it doesn't look It looks really it's it my brain doesn't process it's the way it processes the normal face. It's like uncanny valley

Yeah, exactly it is very It's it's incredibly distracting and it's funny. I'm thinking about Carrie Fisher who I love in general um, and I think she did something for the movie because when she did that very, very funny and interview with the dog recently, she looked pretty normal. Like I think maybe all the Botox she had for the movie war often. She looked fine. I mean, what's terrifying about the idea? I mean, on the one hand, do whatever

you want, like modify your body, but the idea that we're afraid of what we look like when we look old is really disheartening to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, guys, like, accept it. It's going to happen. And also in terms of like spending time and money on something, it's like, I don't know. I agree. I do think, I do think, um, yes, I mean, one doubt and stuff and be healthy, but I mean, I do think there is, I mean, I do think ageism is like pretty widely accepted. I mean, particularly in the age of like the information age and the digital age, I think age is seen as something that is, you know, we're so fixated on this concept of millennials,

which is a not a real group of people. It is an age range. We're so fixated on this idea that people are a set of things versus like actual individuals with individual tastes and feelings and talents and preferences. But I do think that I also think we're in kind of an amazing age where where it's harder to get old. I think it's harder to get old. I think it's harder to get old in the age of the internet. I feel like I'm much more aware as I am aging as everybody is aging.

I still feel much more aware of what is happening now than I felt when the internet was nason and just coming together and forming and not really the thing that it is. I think in the age, the information age, in the age of the internet, it's actually really difficult to not be caught up, which changes the conversation for a lot of people. Yeah, it's, I mean, that's my optimistic view. I agree with you.

I'm also realizing I was about to save the internet, but the internet is not a thing. I think I said I think I said it. So, um, well, yeah. But you made an interesting point. I'm just going to jump over what you just said. That's my old man. No, no, no, because I think you're right. Um, and I mean, the internet is just depressing. Um, it is, but it's also, I think it's super-depression also amazing. Awesome, because we just looked up future 2000 and that's right. Batman and bad dance. So it's great. That's the internet. It's everything.

It's probably not a good idea to talk about the internet. That generation thing is, that's a great point. I think none of those generations are like, anytime you generalize beyond a few people, like you're already screwing up the data because like people would be like oh boomers And then you just point out the age of some awesome human being that you love and you're like all right technically Maybe I lean miles as a boomer right like Shut up about boomers. I'm all that whole thing. I mean we're look We're we're we're just very desires of classifying people

and broad groups because it makes it easier to understand and frankly, solid of them. I mean, the reality is like it's mostly driven by the advertising, the world of advertising. I think it also is driven by the philosophical need to believe in change, to believe in progress. And it's probably closer to true that like, obviously we have new watches and new gadgets.

You know a lot better than I do about that shit. Like with that weird, I don't know what the keyboard you posted was, I didn't get that, but whatever. That is a plank keyboard. It's a 40% keyboard. It's 40% the size of a regular keyboard and it's hand built by somebody. And why don't you care? No one should care. It's only for it's like it's like I was

making telly Laura the other day I was like this is like that sounded hostile I didn't know. No, I did sell very hostile but it's okay but it was like Laura I make a joke all the time to her because I don't know if you remember on the keeping up the Kardashians like Bruce Jenner had you know he's like RC cars and he was always in like the, or his RC planes was always in the garage with his like planes and stuff, and Chris would come in, Chris Kardashian would come in and like be kind of addictive about it.

That's how I feel about my keyboards. I feel like I'm like this weird, of this weird hobby. Anyhow, it's not important, but anyhow, what were you saying? Cause then we get, cause then we got to really wrap up. We're almost on two hours here.

Okay. Not to rush you, but I don't want to get stuck on my thumb. Keep a drama. What was I saying? I don't know. It was about classifying people. It was about aging. It was about...

Oh, oh, oh, I think, I mean, the generational thing, I think what... I mean, it comes from a bunch of places. And this is maybe too obvious to say, we, maybe we all know this, but I mean, you, people get older, they, you know, all these millennial essays, it's not like I love people in that cohort or have an opinion, but it's like amazing how many people are writing these like crabby essays, and what they really are, you know, the under, like you were saying about people going after Kanye West it's like

subtext is very obvious which is like I'm getting older and I don't like it and I don't want to die and these people are younger than me and it's like yeah it sucks you're gonna die before them right but like there's nothing wrong they're not doing anything wrong they're not doing anything you didn't do you were a narcissist too. Right. Of course. I mean, I- I just feel like the whole stuffy thing, like give me a break, like people weren't narcissistic

before. I think that, I also think that we have- It's have phones. I get looking for the things to be annoyed about with this, with the new generation. I actually don't think people are that different. And I don't think that I actually know there's this with technology, particularly we've gone through this period where for a decade we've had just explosion of all sorts of new things, and I do think that it's really easy to say things like, after 9-11 people were like, irony is dead. There's no more irony in the world now.

Comedy is dead. How can you ever laugh again? It's like, yeah, I think let's give it a little space to figure out if these bold proclamations about how you what you think is happening to society actually pan out. I'm not saying don't be critical, but I think criticism and critique is very important. But I do think with technology, we're like, things are gonna change. They're gonna change really dramatically in terms of how we live with the stuff,

how we act with the stuff, what the stuff does for us. And I don't mean like, it's just gonna get crazier and crazier, I mean, like, people are taking, people are like, they're better with their things than they were five years ago. They're better with their phones and better at using them. They know more about what they do now. And so, when selfies is one of those things,

it's like, yeah, it's cool and fun now and everybody's excited about it, but in a couple of years, it will be a different thing. It won't seem like a big deal and it won't matter. I think we tend to get caught in these moments of people and go, this is the way the world is now. And it's like, yeah, not really, but not really. No, I think I agree with you.

You know, the millennial really, but not really. No, I think I agree with you. You know? Like the millennial audience, people talk about millennials, just having all these like, wow, the so, the millennials, they're so different. And it's like, yeah, but then the millennial, the 22 year old is like a 25 year old. And like, they, they change. People change, you know. And it's, I just think that they're the same kinds of people that the, that previous generation were. And, yeah, they have phones in their pocket that do a bunch of stuff, but it's not really that dramatic. No, it's not.

And look at the idea of something like terrible word, but like the long read. You know, all that we found out is like, yeah, those long well reported pieces that people wrote 40 years ago, we still like them. Right. You know, like there's a, like there's no change. The thing that you, you love before, people still love that. And new people will love them also.

So it's just that it's like, you know, people, it's like actually going back to the time magazine conversation. It's like, well, we've been making time magazine for a hundred years and now people don't want time magazine anymore. It's like, yeah, no shit because we've been making time magazine for a hundred years, and now people don't want time magazine anymore. It's like, yeah, no shit, because you've been making time magazine for a hundred years. And the generation that exists now doesn't feel that it speaks to them or addresses things

that they actually care about in a way that they should or could care about them. And what is real is like, you know, things either adapt or they die. And I think it's like, it's, it's, people make the mistake of thinking there's some sort of generational shift in I've talked to a lot of people and they're like, well isn't all we want, you know, isn't it just like people just want to read Buzzfeed now? Like they don't care about

other stuff. And it's like not really not in my experience. People do care a great deal about really important things. If you give it to them in a way that makes sense to them, and if you are speaking to them in a voice that is like their voice. And so, anyhow, this goes into a big, deeper rabbit hole on this stuff, but I do think that we get hung up on these notions that are just, they're so naive and so short-sighted that everything is different now.

And actually, a lot of things are different, but a lot of things are very much the same. And you should be able to recognize the two. Yeah, in a way to maybe fuse that with the generational idea, I was thinking of being in England at one point and a couple years ago, and there was a woman in her 60s

who had just gotten in an iPhone. And I noticed that she ended up being just as obsessed with her phone as we accused kids of being. And like I have two kids and they're different, you know, one's 15, one's 18, and one is much more addicted to his phone than the other one. And so these generalizations all, sorry, that is that. actually the use what you can make. I make text tones. I cut them for for people. So I know who's that's great. And that actually I was that's a little bit creepy. I was talking about that person and that's he the tone weird. He's actually been during our conversation.

He's been texting me about some Twitter rant that Kanye is going on. That I was happening. Neither of us are paying attention to it because we're podcasting and we are not reading the internet. Right. Terrible. We're missing it all. So we'll be able to look back on us one day and be like, do you remember before we

knew about like who knows what we're going to find when we open up the Twitter and we're going to find when we open up the Twitter and I mean, there's like a swish a swish slash waves leak and Kanye is freaking out about it. Who knows? Or you know, or it could be like that moment where like you read the I'm trying to think what's like the worst tweet ever like some iggy is alien moment or the woman on the plane going to South Africa. Well, that that, but that one turns out to be just like a really badly timed joke. But also a bad joke, also a bad joke. It's a bad joke, but I'm sure you read that John Ronson thing where she was like, saying something that sounded like, of course, is the worst thing you would possibly say if you're

going to Africa. So in person, it would sound, I'm not trying to defend the joke, but I think there are things that you are. Well, I just think there are things on Twitter where people have said, like some of that Richard Dawkins stuff were like Joyce Carroll Oats. Yeah. Like what are they doing to themselves? They're like completely destroying their reputation. They keep saying they should not be on Twitter, I think is the is the is the end. Oh my God. They get off reputation. And they keep saying. They should not be on Twitter, I think, is the answer. Oh my God, they get off. They get off. And people will tell them and they get worse and they get worse.

Well, it's a talent. It is somewhat of a modern talent. I don't mean this in an age way, but it is somewhat of a understanding you would think that somebody like a Rodocans would understand himself through the panopticon of the internet that like That it just is the perception the reality and perception There is a divide And you have to know how to like surf the divide essentially like between reality and perception Like I try to be very much myself on the internet, but I think if I were completely myself

very much myself on the internet, but I think if I were completely myself, people would really dislike me. But they wouldn't understand because if in person you met me and I made the same joke or had the same opinion, I would present it in a way like you would know where I was coming from and it would be very clear what we were talking about. The internet does not allow that.

And so like knowing the difference between like your reality and the perception of what you're doing is like, it's just incredibly important. I mean, to's a skill that it's a skill that your kids and my kids and people now who have grown up in the age of like the internet and truly the age of the internet, like the social internet, will have a way of understanding this in the way that we don't. This is like, why Snapchat exists. This is why things that disappear exist. This is why kids don't really use Facebook and if they do, they go on Facebook

and then they delete their account and they come back and then they delete it again. They understand, I mean, people who were raised in the last decade, two decades who understand much better those divides. And that's not ageism, but it is a real thing. I think there's also a thing I agree to, so I'll just say I agree.

Thank you. Instead of doing what I keep doing, which is just saying your thing in different words, it's fine too. No, it's fine too. The, I also think, and here I'm being a little bit ages, but I think I'm okay with this, because there are a bunch of older people who don't do this,

but I think what happens with like a Joyce Carol votes or Richard Dawkins or somebody else a little bit Neil deGrasse Tyson every now and then is there's this kind of feeling of this is sort of what you just said but a little bit different like the like is this thing on phenomenon like Like, it's like, they're writing emails. They've met into somebody and it's like, no, no, no, everyone can see that. Yeah, every, everyone saw that. So she tweets, I don't know who she imagines

is reading it like 10 people. It's like, no, no, no, no, millions of people can see that. Right, I think I've saw falling Margaret Atwood on Twitter because of that sort of similar, like William Gibson's great on Twitter, he totally gets it. But there are other authors make Margaret Atwood on Twitter because of that sort of similar like William Gibson's great on Twitter He totally gets it, but there are other authors make Margaret Atwood. I think was one of those people What is she doing? I don't think I know you don't know who she is or you don't know Because we got to go it's a whole other conversation

Thank you. I know I know I know I just I can't remember but I think early on when she was on Twitter She was like I'm she's like I'm trying to send you a message. Why isn't this going through and I'm like, no, I'm out like I don't want to see you I don't want to see Margaret. I would like getting tech support on Twitter I see it was like sort of it was I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was just like Or you know, she's telling me like Canadian politics or something. I was like, no, this is not for me I can't remember then there are people like share or something, I was like, no, this is not from me. I can't remember. Then there are people like Cher.

Cher is a goddess. She's a precious angel from heaven, who's been sent to the service. Cher is kind of like a bowie, like has Cher ever done anything off. Wow. Okay. I think that's a great place to wrap it. Wait, what were the dumb things you wanted to ask me?

Can I, there was gonna be like really dumb dumb stuff like what was the first record you bought? I can tell you exactly the first 45 was a fifth of Beethoven by the Walter Murphy. Wow. Interesting. The disco version. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. And the first album full length was the Elton John's greatest hits. the first one. Interesting. Racing in the piano. Those are both records that I defend and I'm happy with. Most of my, the first 45s I bought, like the first 10 and this kind of telling were all

probably disco, like Boogie Nights. Sure. You love disco music. Groove line I still do. When at what point did you realize you wanted to write about music? That's a cool story that I will tell very quickly. I didn't. I what happened was we played a show at the knitting factory in 1993, for 1993. A woman I very much admired and then later became friends with Anne Marlowe was a critic

for the, she is a fascinating career, like one of the most unpredictable careers ever. And her book about heroin is really, really incredible. Anyway, she was writing about music for the voice and it was really, really good writer. And I wanted her to come see the band and she was friends with Klam and I just thought maybe she would write a film. That's then I met her after the show. She's a very, very hard core person, like she is hard core, hard core. And she was just like, nope, hated your band.

And I was like, okay. And, but she said, starting a scene, and she was starting a broadsheet, like a huge printed thing, like people did that, an insane, but people did that. I must have cost her an arm and a leg to make this thing. Like an actual printed thing. Yeah, it was called Pretty Decorating.

And she had heard me and my friend, A&E Harkins, talking about, we were basically bitching about A&E Harkins saying, man, why are these people like cassette low five, like this is not okay. We have day jobs so that we can go into a studio and record our bands properly, like low five is bullshit. Like it's not okay to release a record,

and be some fucking centredo kind of guy. Like, no, no. It's not authentic, it's not cool. It's just less information, and it sounds like shit. And like, it's- A lot of people who would disagree with you on that point. Well, they can go fuck themselves, all right? Wow.

What about, what's the band from Ohio? Who's the name I'm blanking on right now that made a billion foretrack records? Very politic. Got it. Got it. Got it by voices, thank you. Laura loves got it by voices.

I've only become a side-way, you know, sort of side-fan because I'm not really a fan. I actually don't really care for most of music, but. I'm just being contentious. Okay, but you know, but they would, they did a bunch of super-loaf-eye stuff, right? Yeah, I never gave just being contentious. Okay, but you know, but they would, they did a bunch of super low-fi stuff, right? Yeah, I never gave a shit about them. Really?

Oh, man, interesting. Very, that's a very controversial opinion. And we're not going to go into it now, but very controversial. I don't disagree, but let me, let me, let me clarify, sorry, Laura, I don't want to make Laura mad. And so what happened was, she has this thing called pretty decorating and she's, I believe, is starting it or maybe has put out one and she says, so the thing that you and Andy are talking about is low five thing.

And to clarify my position, it's simply that if you're a good band, like recording your good band badly doesn't make it cooler, like just record it better and you'll have more information. And if you want at that point filter it and make it sound like a tin can, okay, but like, especially if you're like a decent songwriter, I like Lou Barlow and I love John Danielle. I'm like, I want to hear you, like, I want to hear more of you, like you're good. You're good. It's, in fact, it's, it doesn't matter to me if your band is bad. I don't care how you record it, but if you're good, I don't want you to just put out a cassette

of your record and be like, okay, this is fine. I actually, as an aside to this, I actually prefer recorded music to live music. And I'm sort of like, if I, you know, I've sort of value and love and treasure, great production. And it's more interesting to me to hear a great band that's been produced, like,

that's been greatly produced versus going and hearing, like, getting the experience of the live. It never lives up to the production to me. It always sounds like it's lacking. It's like, I feel like what it's meant to be, what it's meant to be done is like, you make it in a studio. So obviously, some of the big Eagles fan bringing this full circle. But anyhow, so, so you were talking about

long road, it's a really cool sunny record. So you were, basically, you were talking about this low-fi stuff. You were ranting about it. Yeah. And then, in fact, that's what, that's what she said. She said, that's just like a classic Richard Meltzer rant. I don't even really like Meltzer, but I don't even know if I knew who he was at that point. And I'm in a band. I'm 26, 27. Yeah. I have no intention of running about music, but I write the piece for her.

And then I wrote a few more pieces for her. And one was a really, I just eviscerated this free kit and show, you know, free kit and Kim Gordon and Julie K. For its. And I was like, we're supposed to like this, but this is just garbage. And with more words, and funnier than that. I don't remember that well.

And Grill Marcus wrote her note. And so I was like, oh my God, oh my God. And he mentioned that you really like this piece. And I was like, oh my God. And then basically what happened is Simon Reynolds wrote something for her about post-rock. And I was like, well post-rock. And I think he had lumped, as everybody everybody did lumped Uli and with this thing

and I wrote back something saying like I don't know what's going on over in England this back when he lived there. Right. Instead of hearing L.A. But I was like you're foolish shit and I don't think this thing even exists and I don't know what you're talking about. British are always looking to compartmentalize and classify and name. And I love Simon, but I have to say that the bunch of groups he was trying to defend, like disco and Ferno, and I don't know who else, were really terrible.

Sorry. I mean, they just were. Right. And I certainly didn't want to be classed with them. And then Anne Powers of the Voice said, no, here's a mind-blower. Okay, Zines, the village voice was having an entire pull-out about post-rock. And she said, hey, would you write about your band for this? And so I wrote about basically, I was like, there is no post-rock. I don't know what it is, but, you know,

I'm an abandonedist what we do. And then from there, people just kept asking me to write stuff. And I was in a band, and I just thought, okay, on the side, I do this thing and I get a little bit of money. But I did a job and stuff. And then that went on for about, you know, 10 years. And then but the band, you know, the kids were getting older. And the band was winding down because I wanted to be at home. And I didn't know like touring touring very much. I'm in a love playing live but like I'd like to have a club next to my house. Sure, who wouldn't. I can just think of lots of reasons why I hate touring. And you know, and then it all obviously changes when Remnant calls and I'm like, oh, like a job. Like whoa. Yeah. Because I hadn't had an office job. Man, I mostly was like a guy in a

band. And so the age of 37, pretty old, like I go into this fancy building and they give me an office and I have this job, which is how most people think of me. But like at 37, you've done a bunch of stuff already, right? Right. Right. So what was the demand like from the job? Was it like produce a thing for every issue? Or was it less strict than that? I'd written him a letter, but he didn't acknowledge this for a very long time. At a year before, I had written him a letter saying like, gosh, you have a great magazine. You're having a lot of trouble there, that pop music thing, you know, because like Nick

Hornbeek kept writing these pieces like, I don't really that pop music thing, you know, because like Nick Hornby kept writing these pieces, like, I don't really like pop music, so here's a record that you like from 20 years ago. And I'm like, you can't, you can't do that. Like you can't imagine in like a war reporter being like, wow, Syria, okay, I'm more like a war, war, a Spanish civil war kind of guy, so like, I'm not gonna cover this, sorry, like, like you have to engage the moment. If you're going to write about music,

right. It's, you know, we've been talking about Bieber and Drake. Like, it's just interesting. Whether or not I like it, it's kind of like, who cares? Interesting, weird stuff happens. Like, a guy from Canada who used to be in a goofy show ends up in a James Tarell installation. Like, that's weird. That's like, that's really interesting. It doesn't matter if it's good or bad. Anyway, and what he said, Remix said, okay, right six pieces and we'll see how it goes. And this was on my, it was on my birthday in 2004.

And and after the third one, he one, I got an email from somebody because people were basically like, what the fuck? There's popular music in the New Yorker. What is this shit? Like what's going on? But I mean, they were being nice about it, but they were also like, they was almost like, are you sure you guys should be doing that?

And of course, I felt like that too. I kept being like, they're gonna kick me out any second. Like, what am I doing here? And so I emailed him and I'm like, look, I was terrified. I was like, these people are interviewing me and they wanna know like what my title is. And he said, why don't you call yourself the pop critic.

We'd like that. And that's sort of how he hired me. That's amazing. Blue my mind. It's incredible. And then like an idiot 10 years later, he quit. And you abandoned him like a nasshole. So, you know, now less and learned.

And now you're in LA. So I think he actually did call me now. So it was it was an infection at phone call. I'm sure. I'm sure. Well, listen, 10 years a long time do any one thing. I mean, you're talking to a guy who was a bloomberg for one year. So.

That's when people all close and they say, when people are, you know, they're still saying, like, what in the world did you? Why did you quit? Like it's such a great magazine. And I said, like, look, it's not about it not being a great magazine. It's just like doing anything for too long is just a bad idea. Right.

Like you calcify and it's just bad for your brain. No, I agree. I agree. You gotta keep moving. And so, and I think it's some level I'm sure Remnick would probably agree, but I just thought like, I'm gonna be, I'm just gonna be this guy in the corner who does this same column all the time. And I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get bad at it to be I'm just going to be this guy in the corner who does this

same column all the time and I'm going to get I'm going to get bad at it and I'm going to repeat myself. I probably already have and like, you know, I got to keep moving or I'm going to just like a shark. Got to keep going. Well, I think it's a good place to leave it actually. Sharks keep moving. Guys, sharks keep moving or they die. We're talking about boy, it should be a peaceful fish. What's a nice fish a dolphin? The dolphin I thought dolphins do I thought they rape Do you see that's the rumor about dolphins right they do like gang rapes? You got a ruin everything. Oh, sorry. You know tonight's animal And you know who's not nice at all with polar bears. Are they bad? Are they

bad? Oh my God. Vicious. I don't know. Well, everyone loved the panda. Were there any of these? Sorry, no pandas are vicious too, I think actually. I think they can be very violent. They are. They can be, but everyone loved the snow panda. The deer, deer is a nice animal. Uh, but when Connecticut, they would always eat the, the plants. Yeah, but that's a very minor offense. Well, they also would come out in the middle of the road and like there were tons of that because you turn the corner and boom, there's a deer. Yeah, but that's not really the deer's fault is it.

It's the human's fault for building a road where the deer lives. All right, we got a land on a good animal. Do we like squirrels? Squirrels are great. They tend to dominate our bird feeder here, to be honest with you. We got a bird feeder called the Nono Squirrel Feeder, which squirrels hang off of and eat like it's a nut dispenser at a fast food restaurant. I don't even know what that is.

I don't know what a nut dispenser at a fast food restaurant is, but I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't have a really good... Nuts, you don't know their restaurants, nuts with an exclamation mark, and it's just all fast food, nut-related fast food.

And think of all the like dirty hands and the nut dispensers. Yeah, sure. Well, that's why they have the thing that you just said. Let's just end on sale. Zal does a great animal. One of my favorite animals.

Best. Sasha, thank you for doing this. This is a really good conversation. It is much more sprawling than I expected it to be, but that's very good. And there's things I'm sure that we need to talk about, that I, the things I wanted to talk about, that we didn't get to. And we, so you have to do this again. Okay. With me.

Great. Is that a, can I hold you to that? Yeah, definitely. Okay, well thank you very much. And we will talk to you again soon. Future. It's my name, and I say graffiti. It's my, I got my thing. But it's our show for the week.

We'll be back next week with more of course and as always I wish you and your family the very best. Although I understand that Shifty Shell Shock from Crazy Town has just come to your house and is currently doing an akepaela version of Butterfly. It started for me back in 72. I really wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I saw names everywhere, I stopped calling and flared. I knew I had to join in. I knew my answer was there. That was Tacky being Tacky with his dry mark pan.

And he was starting his name way back there with Frank 207, SJK, Koga 144, and the UGA Fade to stay high Compete is the thing that's kinda hard to explain It's not just running around, it's way painting, you know? It starts as a game can't stay the same Dedication makes you put it in a different frame