Tomorrow - Episode 39: John Gruber Crashes His Tesla Into Your Heart

Episode Date: February 2, 2016

John Gruber, one of the most famous bloggers of all time, sits down with Josh for a little one-on-one concerning all things tech. Those things? Apple, Tesla, Google, Twitter, and so much more. Have you ever heard two men violently agree and disagree about a phone's user interface? Have you ever heard two men discuss their hatred of a remote? Have you ever heard two men talk what it's like to gaze into the abyss? Well some of those things happen. LISTEN NOW. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow on your host, Josh Wittipulski. Today on the podcast we discuss Teslas, putting out fires and picking up coins with chopsticks and it's going to be a hell of a show. My guest today is a man who really needs no introduction if you've ever read anything or seen anything on the internet. It's likely you've seen or read something of his. My guest is the inimitable John Gruber. You always say I don't need an introduction. You don't, but then I do an introduction for you. That's the weird thing. Why do I

do that? No one really knows. So listen, this is a very, I'm sure very active time for you, a very hot time of the year. We just came off some Apple earnings because you write a lot about Apple, you like Apple. Yeah, you know, it's funny that the earnings is always, it's like, I never know how much time to devote to it. Because it's not what I'm mostly interested in. I really am not. I really, I would be so much happier

if Apple was a privately held company. And they, you know, like, and just kept it a secret as they keep other stuff. And it's like, and then every every year, maybe Tim Cook would just give like everything's good. He would just get on a call. There's so much trouble. Because I really want to write about their products.

I want to write about what their products, I want to write about their services, the design stuff. And I'm not a finance blog, I don't really, you know. But it is boring, let's be honest, but the earning shit is relatively uninteresting to a normal person. It is, even an abnormal person. It is, but at some point, it's like,

you kind of have to acknowledge it, because on the one hand, it's these gigantic numbers. And it is interesting, you know, and I know that, which is, Professor Scott Galloway, at NYU, you know, and I know that which is a professor Scott Galway at NYU. You ever see his videos? He's really great. You have to say professor before I think so. Yeah. Well, he'd be a doctor wouldn't he? Yeah. He yeah. Well, I think it's I think I said professor because his Twitter account is like professor Galway or something like that. Yeah. You get any ideas video? He calls them like the Four Horsemen,

and it's Amazon Google Apple and Facebook. Facebook, but the Netflix was in there. Oh, I think that is. Facebook, Apple, or Facebook, Amazon, Netflix and Google, is Apple not in there? No, I think he's got a different list that's like the content. There's another set. There's because there's a fanglist,

which I think is Facebook, Amazon, Netflix and Google Google yeah, the Netflix one is more about like content distribution I think where like media attention is going and the the other one is really just who are the four big-ass Companies right that are delivering these crazy numbers and and it's the numbers are just huge It's like you know he you know he's done these comparisons where he's thrown them up against the GNP of certain nations, and it's just mind-boggling. And so you kind of have to, if you're writing about this, acknowledge it to some degree. I mean, you definitely, I feel like,

the very least you have to have a pretty good working knowledge because you are so plugged into and so meticulous in your thinking and coverage. I mean, it's not like you're writing stuff every day, like, you know, detailed, you know, whatever, but you definitely are meticulous in your thinking and sort of, you know, writing about apples. Seems like even if you want to ignore the earnings,

it's sort of impossible for you to do it. So, yeah. So, okay, so what do you make? So, what do you make of the latest earnings? I mean, because I think it's a really interesting, you know, I'll give you my spiel and then I want to hear from mean, because I think it's a really interesting, you know, I'll give you my spiel and then I wanna hear from you. But I think it's really interesting that, again, you know, Apple's like just monster profit,

you know, and yet, and yet, there is this sense, somehow just out there that, you know, I actually tweeted this Guardian article from like last week or something in where it's like Apple can't get the engineers and it needs a new hit product. And there is definitely like this narrative, which I sort of understand of like,

well, yeah, but they're not doing that, right? You know, it's like weird. It's like they have so much money that can't stop making money. They're basically printing money. And yet, there's this weird sentiment. And tell me if you feel this, there's a sentiment that's like,

but Apple's doomed, man. It's just a matter of time. Well, I'm, I really try to be emotionally detached from the company overall, but also specifically the stock. And I certainly don't own any Apple stock. I think that would be, you know, which is good to disclose that right now. I also don't, I own no stock.

Of course, as a journalist covering these companies, I've never been able to purchase it. People are always like, yeah, you own Facebook stock. I'm like, I wish I fucking own Facebook stock because I wouldn't be writing articles on the internet. I, you know, some of the young people say to me when I tell them I don't own Apple, they're like, oh, but you wish you did over the last 10 years.

And I say, no, because I've done what? During fireballs done well. And I say no because I've done what, during fireballs done well. And I mean, I've done well in my own way based on Apple's success. I don't need, I mean, I don't need to double down on it by yourself. You invested in other ways in Apple. Right, exactly, by paying attention.

And that's paid dividends. Right, I've invested my attention in them. That's right. I know it sounds glib, but I mean, I really have. No, I think that's actually a really interesting way to look at it, but the reality is, like, you have a pretty robust following and career built around. I mean, you don't just write about Apple,

you write a lot of stuff, but you definitely have made the name that you've made, focusing on Apple in a large way, so that is a kind of investment. Yeah, and, you know, and it's, but anyway, the finances are interesting because, and but it, people are emotionally tied in it, and there's for multiple reasons. One is there is, you know, and it's been this way for 25 years

where there's a sort of tribal mentality to which platforms you personally adopt, where people, you know, and you see it even in other areas like, you know, PS4 versus Xbox and, you know, you spend 500 bucks. Do you have a do you have preference, by the way? We're a PS4 household. Are you really? Yeah, but my son made that choice not. I would think that you would just get both. I mean, of course, what I did, but I'm a sick person. Yeah, you're also seeing like a sick person. So, like, I feel like you would just have the other one just,

I guess you're not really that big of a Microsoft guy though. Well, we do have both, but we don't have the Xbox even hooked up. Oh, you don't? No. Interesting. Well, we ran out of HDMI ports and that happens. I find that, I find, listen, I love the PS4, I find their interface very annoying,

but actually Xbox is worse now, so they're all they all I can't I don't that's the main reason that I supported my sons So what we did was we voted off the island the Xbox one To keep both the ps4 and ps3 because my son was more interested in playing his ps3 games that you know There's for whatever reason there's no binary compatibility So if you want to play a ps3 game, you really need a PS3. And with the limited number of HDMI slots available, he'd prefer to keep the PS3 inside the Xbox. Yeah, to make a judgment.

I supported that though. I really, and he plays 99% of the time and me, I don't really play video games much. Although I'm very interested in Firewatch, which is this new game. I don't know if you're gonna know. Oh my God, write this down. I'm gonna. I'm gonna just Google it right now. It's called Firewatch. Yeah. It's coming out in about the 10 days, I think. By the way, do you know a keyboard I'm typing on right now? It is a, it is my original from what I had an LC a Mac LC. Do you remember the LC? I own

one. The LC came with a real shit keyboard though. The one that I bought, I bought this separate, you could get the better, the Apple, not the extended keyboard. It's like the more compact. I think it's called the Apple standard keyboard is what it's called. And it's like really, it's like,

chalky and key. Yeah, it's got the extended keyboard style keys. I'm not assuming. Yeah. But it's like a more compact form Yeah, anyhow, okay. I'm looking now by the way anyhow So I've been I hooked it up. I got one of these like a 80b to USB adapters Yeah, I got that's I have the same and I and I've been writing on it and it's like crazy How comfortable it is to write on like it's it's the most and I have like I've been on this keyboard kick

I have like 10 keyboards now. This is like by far the one that I enjoy typing on most all right I'm looking at fire watch right now. It's a indie game developer called Campo Santo But they they developed this game in collaboration with panic who's well known anybody who uses Mac software They they're the people who've been doing like FTP utilities and oh wow these screens look amazing Koda, this game is amazing. I've actually got the previous version of it on PS4 already. But it's what is the what is the plot of this game? Oh, long story short, you are a fire ranger in the great Northwest.

And there's a mystery unfolding on the ground that you're responsible for. Wow. So it's fire related though. I don't want to say that. Don't spoil it. Don't spoil it. This looks really cool though.

I mean, I don't want to say anymore except that it's unlike any game I've ever seen before and it is totally immersive and it's got a great story. The main character, your avatar, I don't know what you call it, but the guy you are is played by the same actor who played Harry Crane on Mad Men. Oh, really? Oh my God, it drove me nuts because the voice was so, I've watched Mad Men in its entirety,

like at least three times. Yeah, it's great, yeah. And like season one at least maybe four times. And so I should have known, but I'm really, really bad at like, on a TV commercial when a famous actor is doing a voiceover and you know, you know, but I'm really bad at the game of screaming out the name.

Yeah. And it was driving me crazy that I knew who the narrator was. But anyway, he's got a very distinct voice. It can think of it right now. It's very distinct. Could not place it though. And this looks amazing.

I have to say. I'm telling you, and I'm always on the hunt for a game that isn't like you're running around with a gun. And this is like, looks totally unique. You're running around with a walkie-talkie. Yeah, that's great. That's even better than a gun. Oh my goodness.

But somebody says, somebody says, I can do you what to basically try to, you want to be able to call for help, is what you want. How did we get on to this? Anyway, because we were talking about Apple earnings. And I think there's a clear line for it. No, wait, how did we get on this? That's a great question.

Oh, we were talking about the consoles. And it is coming out for PS4. It's also coming out. I think on Steam. And I know it's coming out on Mac and PC. I got to get, I got to get, I got to get this game. This was really good. The fact that it's coming out on PS4 and not Xbox One

is just just one little tick in the, this is why we coming out on PS4 and not Xbox One is just one little tick in the, this is why we're a PS4 family and not Xbox One. I think the PS4, I think the PS4, they do, I have to say, you know, it's weird because Microsoft had this like for a moment, it seemed like they were really going to focus on like indie developers and indie games and smaller developers. And I just feel like somehow that's been seated to the, to the PS4. I feel like the weird and actually I got my PS4 I weirdly I had the opposite where I had the Xbox one out and the PS4 was in a box and I got it out and hooked it up just to play. Everybody's gone to the

rapture everyone's gone to the rapture. Have you played that? No, I haven't. I think it's only I think it's only for PS4 and Steam. And it's a very similar situation. And it's a really interesting, weird game. I found it like ultimately kind of boring, but it's like they call it a walking simulator. It's like you're walking around this town, trying to figure out like everybody's gone

and you're trying to figure out what happened. So maybe has something in common with this fire watch. Yeah, I think it's the same sort of, you know, it's definitely not. It's isolated, isolated, walking around, trying to figure something out. This looks really cool. Well, this is watch. Yeah, I think it's the same sort of, you know, it's definitely not isolated, isolated, walking around, trying to figure something out. Um, this looks really cool. Well, this is great. I've already, even if we don't have any, if the conversation is terrible after this point, this has been worth it. Yes. I'm telling you, and I'm telling you right now, you'll be in, I have this gut feeling. I think I'm not a game writer,

but I just have this gut feeling that like a month from now, after this game is out, and first, you know, word starts to spread. I think everybody's gonna be talking about this game. Oh man, I'm excited. I'm very excited. Okay, so wait, so getting back on topic here. We were talking about earnings, we were talking about, oh, this is the narrative that Apple is. And so anyhow, you were saying that people are always

asking you if you own Apple stuff. Yeah, and I don't, but all right. And I know what we were talking about. I made our way back to this. Emotional attachment. So I think there's this tribal aspect, and again, this is how we got this hydrate. You see it with PS4 versus PS4.

We see it with that. People, but people who are all in on the Apple lifestyle, people who have got iOS devices and their iClouds and their photos are syncing through the whole library, whatever. You're all in on it and it's hard to switch. And then maybe you combine that with the fact that that maybe these people have put their own money into Apple stock, which I think as a sort of long-term investment, certainly

in the last, you know, decade was a great move. And it was probably a pretty good move even now. Yeah. I'm, you know, do you be a fool to take investment advice from me? But I do think that the company I just want to I want to say that anybody listening do not take investment advice from this man. He's not a professional. And the other half of my advice is to, you know, play Blackjack. So don't do that. Take that.

Take a good idea. Take it under consideration. I just think overall, do I think Apple has a strong future for seeable future? And in our industry, the foreseeable future is not that far. Right. But I think Apple has a strong future for seeable future? And in our industry, the foreseeable future is not that far, right? But I think it's strong. But I think that people who have this emotional attachment, they see things like last week where Apple announces the most, the record breaking most profitable quarter than any publicly held corporation has ever had in history. And then the next day, the stock drops 5%. And they

go crazy. They go%. And they go crazy. They go crazy. They go crazy, because they, but on the other hand, I actually see the logic in it. I do tend to think that Apple stock is undervalued because I think the investor community overalls still doesn't really get it. Yeah.

But on the other hand, I totally understand the fundamental idea that stock price prices largely about perception of future growth, right, and that it looks like Apple's growth engine, the iPhone, has reached this almost unfathomable summit. Yeah, but that it might be the summit. We might as there is there is the possibility that we're reaching like a it might be the summit. There is the possibility that we're reaching like, I mean, I felt like this has been coming for a long time. Like I tweeted about, we've reached peak smartphone,

but in some way I actually feel like that's true. Like there is a tremendous market saturation. Everybody has a smartphone, not everybody, but you know a lot of people have smartphones. Clearly there are new areas to grow into. There are markets that have not been fully penetrated. It's the most extraordinary product, maybe in a history of the industrial design of devices of anything, right? Including the toilet. Right. No, not including the toilet. The toilet's way more impressive. The toilet is much more impressive than the

iPhone, in my opinion. That is true, indoor plumbing is obviously. I mean, it's pretty fucking amazing when you think about what we did with plumbing. Right, and especially like, you know, I'm in Philadelphia, you're in New York and it's February, so the idea of going outside to take a crap is.

No, it's not an appealing idea. All day, every day, all winter along. Yeah, like every, you're out there all constantly. You're out there, you know, if you're drinking coffee or whatever. I mean, I'm like, I'm assuming we have, we're drinking coffee even though we don't have indoor plumbing. Previous prior to indoor plumbing,

I've thought about this a lot, prior to indoor plumbing, a good trip to the bathroom was when you had to go outside to a wood shed in the summer. Yeah. And you just weren't freezing cold. Right, exactly. I mean, if you lived in the south or in the west, I. And you just weren't freezing cold. Right, exactly. And if you lived in the south or in the west, I mean, it's probably fine.

What I saw was, but the difference with the iPhone though is, So are you agree, do we agree, are we agreeing that plumbing, I would say plumbing is greater than the smartphone, but there was no iPhone of toilets, right? Like one company's toilet that sold for a significantly higher price. No, but that's the interesting thing is that I do feel like in, I mean, this is true,

right? I mean, Apple still doesn't, they do not have the, they don't own the market share in terms of the global market share, smartphones. But there is kind of, it is kind of like every smartphone sort of is about, no, look, we know, I agree with you, the iPhone is superior in many ways to what other people are producing. But the degrees of difference have gotten much closer now. It's sort of like, okay, everybody has a smartphone that does about the same thing. Yeah, but if you just look at it, if we just want to stick to the finances though, it's it, it doesn't, it doesn't matter because if you just look at it, there's Apple with

92% of the profits in the industry. Sam's song with like 10%, and everybody else, and in a math doesn't work. Right, because everybody else is actually losing money. No, no, this is, I agree with you. I mean, it's a, in terms of profit, Apple has dominated, but in terms of the actual thing, like you were talking about toilets, right? Like there is a nice or toilet, okay? And having just done some redone some bathrooms, I can tell you, there are many ranges of toilets out there.

I'm sure you know this. But, but you know, like they all do about the same thing. Like, sometimes you can see it some don't, but they're all basically, you know, they're you shit them. Yeah That's why I shit in any toilet. I know I and I think that's how I feel that's more I do I think it's mostly true. I really you know, yeah people what do people mostly do? I mean most people really get by With you know five or six apps just good enough. It's just great. You know, you want your Twitter, your Facebook, your camera app, your email, your text messaging and Uber, you know, and browser, right? And a browser. And, you know, there you go. And most people, I mean, Uber, okay, we're, I think we're

Instagram. Instagram, I use, we're, but you were people who use Uber a lot, I think, and Uber has wide, you know, has wide penetration, but like still, I think if you go to lots of cities and lots of places, that people aren't like, oh, I'm Ubering everywhere. No, but like still, I think if you go to lots of cities and lots of places, people aren't like, oh, I'm Ubering everywhere. No, but if you're in an Uber city, you are. If you're in it, if you're in like, yeah, New York, is Philly very active Uber-wise? Yeah, and it just happened overnight. You know, it's crazy.

No, Uber is an amazing utility. Of course, then again, I think a lot of things, you know, you think, oh, how can I live without this and then something comes along? Yeah, Philly's actually probably one of the best. I don't know, they came here pretty early. Earlier then Philly gets a lot of stuff like that and I think it's because they knew that Philly was particularly a corrupt cab town.

I know the taxi industry nationwide is notorious for being, you know, all tied up with local municipal politics and, you know, all this stuff to help the incumbents. But in Philly, it's particularly bad. Philly has absolutely terrible cabs. The actual cars that the cab drivers drive are horrible. It's one way that the regulations are so loose that a large percentage of the cabs on

the road in Philly. This is starting to change because those old, what was that model? The Grand Victoria, the Grand Vicks? Uh-huh, I know. You know, the Lincoln Town Car. No, well, there's other ones though. Most town car has been discontinued. Those, the classic cabs from like the 90s,

the ones that look like the way police cars were. Most of the, most of the Lincoln Town cars, maybe you're right, maybe they're Grand Victor, or Caz, is the way police cars were. Most of them, those are Lincoln town cars. Maybe you're right, Grant, maybe they're Grant Victor. Or Caz, though, they're. Yeah, yeah, whatever. And their cars had not, and more normal people would never drive. A huge number of the cabs on the road in Philadelphia at one point were,

A, cabs are, are former police cars that the police were no longer deemed worthy of being on a road for police officers. And if you've ever looked at a police cruiser, police cruis being on a road for police officers. And if you've ever looked at a police cruiser, police cruisers, they get banged up. I mean, they're in bad shape. So the ones that are no longer... They're chasing criminals. And the other ones were cabs that were kicked out of New York City for failing inspection.

So what would happen is cabs would fail inspection in New York. And then instead of fixing them, they would just put them on a truck, driving down a New Jersey turnpike and sell them to the Philly cab companies. That sounds right to me. That sounds like a Philly situation. Yeah, and it's just corruption. There's also, I mean, I know, I know, you know, I lived in Philly for a little while. I know that when I was there, this was many years ago, but there was corruption everywhere like the government in Philly was really corrupt and the police were really corrupt. I don't know if that's still true, so I'm not surprised to hear that the cab just dirty grimy cars and Uber just swept in and it's you know the worst Uber ride that I've ever had is better than the best almost better than the best cab ride

There's like one cab company in Newark Uber is what you're saying you like you like Uber Yeah, well, and I think it's I think it is it's having the effect that you know like it's like what you economics 101 or the free market 101 like I think it's it's gotten the Philly taxi industry to that, you know, like, it's like what economics 101 or the free market 101, like, I think it's gotten the Philly taxing industry to sort of, you know, start trying. No, it's definitely that, I think that's happening everywhere. It's definitely like, oh, wait a second, this old system is broken and sucky and the experience is bad for most people. And now, you actually have to do something about it because someone has threatened your position. I mean, like, this is like the dollar shave club.

And although dollar shave club razors are really not that great, but like the price, the price point versus what you get for like a mock three and the quality of the shave. It's like close enough that you're like, you know what? I'm going to save like 20 bucks on this thing. Okay. So getting back to Apple, we're way way off topic here, John. So, so, okay, but this, this begs the question, right? Like, you're right. And it, it's reached its record profitability. So it does make sense

that, is that profit center slowing, right? The iPhone. Well, that did, to get back to the point, the point was, so the iPhone is so big, they sold 75 million of them. Now, it was the holiday quarter, but 75 million of a device that average selling prices somewhere, or $700, $800, you know, well subsidized, but they consumer doesn't feel that whether they do or don't, you know, but that's part of what makes it magical is that they can, you know, that more people buy these than they would if they weren't able to hide it. It's this incredible sweet spot where it's a product that almost everybody Almost everybody who could have one does have one whether they you know whether you know have some kind of smartphone

It's incredibly useful people who do buy them actually do use them, you know Almost everybody can have one yeah almost everybody wants one Yeah, and it's like a Coca-Cola and it's it's it's even combined that with the fact that the the way that the carrier set things up that the true cost is hidden and and they're really, really good at you know doing these contracts in a way that really does fool most people. You know, most people really don't realize that one way or the other you're paying $800 for your iPhone Right, and it's this perfect storm that makes for and it you know the fact that they may not ever create another product that is as profitable as the iPhone

Is a very real possibility? I don't see how anybody could deny that Well, so that is the big question right now look. They're gonna they're gonna make a new iPhone from what I understand. They're not stopping with the iPhone 6, 6S rather. There's an iPhone 7 coming. There's an iPhone, there's like a mini iPhone. Is this thing real, do you think? This little? Yeah, I might think it has to be at this point. It's like an iPhone 5 size iPhone 6. Yes, that's for my understanding. What I just said doesn't make any sense, but that's basically what it is. Right. Take the size of the iPhone 5 and take the performance of last year's iPhone 6. Yeah. The original iPhone 6. Right.

Not the 6s. And that will be the new- Low-steer- They still sell the 5s. Yeah. So that will replace the 5s. Right. I know nothing.

I've totally got to say- I'm 5S. Right. I know nothing. I've totally got that. I'm not saying you do. I know, but I have to verify this information with an expert. I feel like I have to preface it, though, because I used to try to, you know, pick the brains of sources and sort of be informed of stuff that was coming up. And I found it just wasn't fun. It's not a fun.

It's not a fun. I mean, honestly, when I read now, when I'm looking at these iPhone rumors, I'm kinda like, you know, why don't we just admit to it? Why don't we all admit that there's gonna be a new iPhone? Let's just see what happens, because I think that I've become a little bored, I have to say, of the little trickling out of the details.

I mean, it would be more fun. There was a point, and I don't think, actually, I feel like most people have forgotten this at this fun. There was a point, and I don't think, actually, I feel like most people have forgotten this at this point. There was a point not that long ago when like Apple really, you could not, you did not know what they were going to announce. There was no way to find out.

There were not leaks from like supply chains. Like, you just were gonna, it was, you heard some things, maybe somebody had that a friend of a friend had mentioned a thing, and then like, you would just find out at the event. Which, look, I mean, I'm probably contributed to the problem of people finding out, and I will admit that. But now it's like, I'm kind of misbeensurprised. Yeah. I feel like the Apple TV was a little surprising, just a little.

The new one. Yeah, because again, it didn't go through this ramp up of, because again, it didn't go through this ramp up of, like, how do you ship 75 million of a brand new device in one quarter? That's just, it's mind-bogg, Tim Cook on the earnings call even said, it's like, what is it, like an iPhone? Like so many iPhones every 10 seconds, it's just ridiculous.

It's mind-boggling. It's crazy, it's crazy. I mean, I do think the Apple TV was a little bit of a surprise, but it's also like a black box. Yeah, exactly. It's kind of like, you know, it's not like there's nothing to leak. I mean, maybe they have, oh, and a watch was a surprise. We knew that they were doing a watch, but we didn't do anything about the watch. Yeah. That's true. That's true. And that was actually pretty big thrilling. It was pretty exciting. Yeah. That was the most exciting. That was the most... Are you wearing, do you still wear your watch? Some days, I do, I definitely still wear it, but I definitely don't wear it every day.

I bought a Huawei, Huawei. They make it like a circular Android watch. It's actually pretty cool looking. I mean, it looks like a watch. But here's the thing, I stopped wearing it. I wore it for like a week, and then I was like, this thing's annoying. I just, I don't think, I don't know.

I'm not a guy who really wants to wear a smart watch. I think that's the reality of my situation. Yeah, same with that. I like the idea, like I get excited about it, and then I'll like, you know, everyone's a while, put the Apple watch back on or whatever. But I'm like, kind of like, yeah, I don't need, I don't really need this for anything.

I don't need, like I'm not worried about my steps, you know, I'm not really doing, like I guess it's nice to be reminded to stand up. Okay, getting back on topic. So, what is, like, so what is, like in your opinion, look, you've studied Apple, you know Apple, I'm not really doing it. I guess it's nice to be reminded to stand up. Okay, getting back on topic. So, what is, in your opinion, you've studied Apple, you know Apple, you've watched them for a long time. So, what's the next thing?

Is there a next thing for Apple? I mean, is it something that's just like, where he's going to be so shocked and so surprised that we never see it coming? Because I don't really believe that was the case with the phone. I mean, when there had been rumors, there had been some dabble in, there had been conversations about like, it wasn't so shocking that Apple was doing a phone, it's just the way they did it that was really shocking, right?

It's like, it's like what they ended up producing. So what is the next frontier for a company like Apple? I actually find myself wondering that, you know what I hear people talking about this car, and it's like, that's a whole, I mean, that is a crazy different business to be in for this company. I think it's easy to overthink it. I think it's pretty obvious because I feel like even with the phone, and the surprising

part about the original iPhone was that they built it on this, you know, like the same foundation as Mac OS X that they took a real computer operating system and shrunk it down to the point where it could fit on a phone. And nobody really thought that that was possible yet. You know, that seemed like something that would happen eventually, but 2007 seemed too early and they pulled it off and it was amazing. Whereas everybody, what we were all kind of,

I personally, in the audience was expecting, was an iPod phone, you know, something like the iPod, the iPod, you know, that whatever that OS is called, it doesn't even, you know, an OS, it doesn't even have a name. Yeah. But like, you know, embedded OS, you know, that sort of phone. Yeah. But the fact that they made a phone was not a surprise at all. Like, what they might make, it's so easy to overthink and try to think, that they might think of something that we've never even thought of. No, it's probably exactly what we're thinking. I would say the next thing is...

What are we thinking? What are we thinking? I think something related to VR or AR and the car. And the car is probably related to VR and AR. Like I can't imagine that Apple would do a car that doesn't take the projected augmented reality that you see through the windshield to a new level. Right. Well, I mean, you can imagine all sorts of things, but the reality is, I mean, we're not gonna know.

I think we're not gonna know for a while, but I do think, and I'm not one of these people who's like, they'll never make it, when phones or whatever. I mean, it's funny to think now, you know, all these people who are like, they know, they'll never make it, you know, wind phones or whatever. I mean, it's funny to think now, you know, these people who are like, they can't just make a phone, like clearly can. And so I would never say they can't just make a car, but it's a really different industry. I will say like, you do start to think about apples, like scale, the scale that they have in the market.

And you think like, they could do whatever they want. I mean, they could make anything, you know, they could literally make houses. They could be like, we're making Apple houses. And they have the cash reserves to kind of create any business, to build any kind of factory, to mobilize any kind of workforce. So the card isn't seen that far fetched to me. I just wonder, what is the innovation that Apple provides that Tesla's not doing?

Right. I guess like the AR thing's an interesting concept. I mean, that certainly would be interesting. I could see them look, I mean, eating Tesla's lunch completely, right? Because they have so much, just so much, um, cash basically. Yeah. And I think Tesla is, I think Tesla is a fascinating company. I love the stuff that they're doing. And it's, you know, and I think Tesla is a fascinating company. I love the stuff that they're doing, and I wouldn't count them out. But I think the thing that Tesla is clearly up against is that the scale. Again, now, the Apple's a company that has made a grand total of zero cars. That's right. But Tesla's are very expensive compared to what else like if you just go to your local Honda dealership

You know and and start pricing cars. It's very expensive Well the rumor though is there's this model 3 that's coming which is gonna be like 30 grand or 35 grand Which is great and I'm they're very smart company and if they can do it they'll do it But even then how many will they be able to make right? I mean like you can't even with the hundred and thirty dollar or hundred and thirty thousand dollar you know Teslas that you can't even with $130 or $130,000, you know, Tesla's that you can buy today, you've got to go get on a list. Yeah. You know, it's true. It's true. They really, they don't have the force to just mass produce. It's hard. It's really hard. And, and again, Apple has made no cars, but Apple does understand scale at a thing that it's just almost mind-boggling

how many. I mean, they get supply chains, they get how to like, the manufacturing process for them. I mean, that's Tim Cook's kind of claim to fame, really. Yeah. And think about it is his ability to build a huge machine that can turn these devices around so quickly and so well. I mean, clearly that would be a place where his expertise would come into play. I think people take that for granted at this point.

I really do. I think that people take for granted just what an extraordinary accomplishment. It is just every year when they come out with a new iPhone that has any kind of new components and that they make them in the first quarter, because the first quarter is the holiday quarter where they're the best selling, where it's got all the geeks who've been waiting to buy the new iPhone as soon as it comes out. And then all the people combine that with all the people who are buying them as holiday

presence. All in one quarter, it's like you have the hardest quarter manufacturing and supply chain wise right out of the bat. And that they do as well as they do I mean like last year they didn't quite meet demand you know when the iPhone 6 was new and it seemed like there was Super extra pen-up demand because they were also in addition to the regular yearly cycle There was also just this broad sense of look everybody knows they're gonna do bigger iPhones This rumor is you know everywhere they're gonna be. And a lot of people wanted a bigger iPhone. And so they waited.

Right. But, yeah. And so the last year they famously didn't even quite meet demand. But the fact that they got like 74 million of them out is extraordinary. Right. I mean, but, but, you know, but overall, like, I am, I think it is impressive. And I don't take it for granted that like have an incredible sense of how to bring a product to market and bring it to market at scale.

But you have to admit, maybe you don't have to admit, but I do feel like there have been a lot of mediocre sort of showing from Apple recently. Like, I mean, in terms of products, I look at the iPad Pro, for instance. Now, I know you like the iPad. I think you in terms of products, like I look at the iPad Pro, for instance. Now, I know you like the iPad. I think you like the iPad Pro, if I recall reading,

I think you did kind of a right up out of that I wrote. I do, but it's not for me. You know, I mean, so. And that question is like, really, who is it for? I mean, I understand like professionals, like, you know, designers, artists, whatever. Like, that's a really, really small percentage. Apple typically doesn't make these niche products

for like 1% of the customers, you know? And I do feel like it's strange to me that they, I mean, look, the technology's really interesting. There's no doubt like the Penn technology and the screen on that is like kind of amazing, but it's sort of like, it doesn't seem like a very good product to me, you know, it doesn't strike me as a very Apple product, I guess, when I look at it.

And a lot of their services, I feel like they've kind of left, I Cloud, for instance, as a service, like now I'm sort of ended up being roped into using it via keynote or something, because I've got something I want to show somebody. But it doesn't feel like they've spent a lot of time creating a really complete suite of services that work well together.

I mean, maybe I'm seeing this differently than you may see it, but doesn't it feel like there is a kind of lethargic nature to the things they've been doing recently? The new Apple TV actually is a great example. I got the new Apple TV and I was like, oh, this is exciting. The interface seems really different.

They seem like they've got some new ideas here. It's better, I think in terms of an interface, better looking than anything they've done, certainly in the TV space, but almost better than anything they've done in the interface space in a while. But it's a pretty buggy product. I mean, it's a pretty,

it seems like a kind of 50% product to me, you know? I mean, it doesn't, it isn't as stable as my old Apple TV. I can tell you that. Like I've had more crashes on that new Apple TV. Really? Oh, yeah. I mean, I watch it all the time. Really?

I've had to restart that thing more times than probably any other Apple product I've ever owned. I have not seen that guy. And I've got a great like Fios connection here. It's hardwired. Like there's no, you know, but don't, doesn't it feel like there is like a little bit of stasis right now.

There's kind of a lethargic sort of lack of ambition almost from Apple at the moment. I wouldn't put it that way. I do think though that and I didn't, I didn't publish the updated version before we started recording, but, um, of what? Well, I linked to a, you know, Mossberg had a piece today just that basically making an argument that has been going around for about a year.

Marco Arman actually set the internet on fire an entire year ago with his argument that Apple has lost, quote unquote, the functional high ground. Mostly, mostly, I would boil the argument down to, and I thought Jim Dowrymple had a piece linking to Mossberg's piece today, and I've expanded on a little bit, but I haven't published yet. But anyway, just of it is... It'll be published by the time people hear it. Yeah, it'll be published by the time. But the just of it is A, Apple's hardware clearly seems to be set at a higher level than their software. And maybe that's just the nature of hardware and software

make maybe it's not fair because of course hardware has to have higher attention to detail before it gets out the door because you can't issue an update over the air. Right. Right. Where you can with software. And so it's just human nature that if you can, of course you're going to ship software with a lesser degree of standards, you know, of quality or design because you know you

can fix it later. Right. And so that's always been true, but I think that there's enough people making that argument about Apple software in particular. And few enough people disagreeing that it's almost certainly just by nature of the polling, you know, how many people would raise their hand and say Apple software has gotten worse in the last few years. And how many people would disagree with that? I think the way that that would break it down from the people I follow is clear enough to suggest that they probably do have a problem.

Yeah, I think. And even if they don't, even if they don't, even if you could really prove it somehow, that their software is better than ever before and we're all just whining perfectionists. Even if that's the case, they clearly have a perception problem because everybody is saying this. I don't see anybody disagreeinging with the Mossberg piece today. I really didn't see anybody say Mossberg is wrong. I haven't read his piece, but I will say this.

And you and I famously disagreed about iOS 7, and I thought, like, vision from a visual standpoint, from kind of like a theoretical standpoint, there were a lot of sort of holes to me. And I do feel like that was the point where, where it now look, I think we all, everybody was like, oh my god, iOS looks so dated. You know, we were sort of, there were a lot of jokes about the felt surfaces

and this humorificism and all that shit. But there was definitely a cohesion to the software where it was like, you felt there was a complete thought, even if it wasn't, you didn't totally agree with the thought. And it definitely started, to me, around iOS 7 was the beginning of cracks in what I always thought of as like, I thought, I always, in fact, I would, when I argue about great moments in software, like I always talk about to people, the moment where Apple was like, we're going to, it's like, we're killing OS 9 we OS 10 is going to be this completely new

We're just gonna like throughout everything and I'm for the most part, you know, and it's like one of these moments I think it's like such an unbelievably important moment Probably doesn't get talked about enough as like just complete like that was the thing that set Apple on its Path to the iPhone and to everything that it's doing right now and it was like, you know path to the iPhone and to everything that it's doing right now. And it was like, you know, bold and right and smart. And the software was actually better than other things that other people are making. So I had this feeling of like real confidence and apples ability to execute. And I thought that the iPod, you know, as simplistic as it was, had a real throughline and that went into, that throughline continued into the iPhone and to a lot of the stuff they built around it. You

know, obviously there were stumbles along the way, but it definitely feels like there's a lack of cohesion and rigor. I mean, there's from the design standpoint, I feel like that is very strong to me. Things that should be obvious aren't things that are things that should be easier are harder. There's like a lack of, I just feel like there's a lack of cohesion, but I think on the design side, but I would just say from like the actual quality of the software side. Okay, Apple music, for instance. Apple music stops playing all the time on me. It's the

only streaming app I have, literally the only streaming app that I use and have, recall, ever having use. And this includes like through many years of trying out different streaming apps that like consistently will just stop playing music for me. See now, there's a lot to unpack there. I, do you still feel that way about the iOS 7 redesign? Because I feel like time has borne it out that it was right. And I feel like, I feel like they have cleaned up

some things that needed to be cleaned up. I still feel like they have cleaned up some things that needed to be cleaned up. I still feel like they have an incredibly dated, I think notifications are incredibly bad still. I think it's a completely, like I've basically turned off most of my notifications and I know a lot of people who've turned off their notifications on iOS because it's been, it's such a bad experience

to deal with them, to manage them, to look at them. I think they have like, yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of the fundamental stuff is still bad, you know? Better than it used to be though. Notifications for never a good part was the iOS. And they have improved it, but there is so much that could be done.

And I actually, like, one of the things that I, and you know, I know we always disagree on Android versus iOS, but one of the things I will say and I stick to this and I feel really strongly about it, what Android's done with, with notifications, they have created a layer of interaction where you can literally kind of like get through the things that you need to know about that you need to figure out that you need to respond to, almost exclusively through a notification panel, which is a kind of an amazing experience. One that Apple should take note of

and find some way to like explore. And they just haven't. So I think that's like a place. I think design-wise, it still falls down in some major areas. I think they've made improvements. I still don't like the way some of the icons look and the way the layers work.

I think they kind of, they don't. Well they kind of see I think that the layering is exact. I think that we always have this conversation. Yeah, I really and I feel like once they hit iOS 8, it cleaned it up in a way that I foresaw coming with iOS 7. I think I think the layering is is is totally cosmetic. It's totally superfluous. I don't find any real utility on it. And I would say things like, you know,

their app switcher, they added things with 3D Touch where it's like you think it would be easier, but it really isn't. You know, I think that I'll tell you something, I never, ever use 3D Touch for almost anything. What I use it for is to move my cursor around when I'm typing. And I think that's like one of the biggest

and best innovations they've created in the new iPhone. But I would say, like, look at the things you might do with that technology and what they've done with it. You know, there's little things and there's big things. I do think that there's a, I mean, the share sheets in iOS are total chaos to me, you know? Like all of the functions that you bring up

when you bring up that share sheet, it's like, there's so many things that can be done, it's so deeply complex and then they have these like sub menus to the share sheet where you can add different functionality or remove different functionality or rearrange it. To me, it's like, you guys are supposed to make this simple and easy and direct and somehow like, it just feels like way more complex and confusing. I mean, and by the way more complex and confusing. And by the way, I don't think I would fall into the average user category on this.

And you have to admit, there's a general kind of, you don't have to admit this, but I feel like it's kind of clear, there is a general lack of rigor in how you accomplish things, how you deal with things, how you move through phases of applications and of experiences on their devices right now. All right, I feel like with the layering stuff

and the basic structure of the system is a whole, it's subjective and I feel like you're in my long-term disagreement on this is subjective. And so we should just move it aside. I think it's a very clever design. And it fits my brain. I feel like if I could talk to the people who designed it, we would get along swimming.

And I do. And I think maybe the reason it doesn't work as well for you is it's just not a good fit for your brain. But you say my brain works differently. That's why I've brought it. You touched on, I think something that you'll agree with me on. And to me, this is the sort of thing that's a little worrisome, which is the app switching. And the way they changed it to go with 3D Touch.

And so you do get, when you do a 3D Touch at the left edge of the iPhone screen to get the app switcher, you press hard and you can switch between apps and they tile with the newest on the right and older going through time back to the left. Right. It's because they changed it to go with this 3D touch. But then in the same year they came out with this product, the iPad Pro. And the iPad Pro is clearly meant to be used a lot of the time with the keyboard attached. I mean, they even came out with their own first party keyboard cover. Right.

And the keyboard and it supports command tab switching. And in the command tab switch, now this is the same operating system, iOS. But on command tab on the iPad, it just shows you all they did was to me very lazily, they just gave you the exact same command tab switching interface that you have on the iPad, it just shows you all they did was to me very lazily. They just gave you the exact same command tab switching interface that you have on the Mac. But it goes right to left. And it's the app icon, not the apps themselves. So your muscle memory there on the, even the foundational switching. There's just a certain ineligence to me in the fact that there's two ways to switch apps and you switch and both

cases you switch from current app to most recently use, second most recently use, third most recently use, and it's two entirely different visual interfaces. Whereas clearly I'm absolutely dead certain there must be a way to come up with one interface that would work both for Command Tab with a keyboard switch, double click on the home screen or on the button that gives you the regular switcher and 3D touch. Right. I mean, and even, and I will say, but even the 3D touch experience on the phone is not, it's not like a really great, super useful approach.

I mean, in my opinion, you know, it's, I feel like there are, looks, tasks switching is tough on a mobile device. You're given a really small amount of real estate to deal with it. But it's not, it doesn't feel like, you know, you get like a couple of cards first off. And then you end up in this like very kind of loose,

flabby scroll through indiscriminate. And I would just go. Indate images of apps, which don't, they don't even, I mean, as far as I know, I just want to check to make sure that this is correct. Okay, so it just shows the name and the icon of the app, like very small at the top, which is usually I think the thing that I'm looking at,

but generally speaking, if you're looking at the content of the app, I mean, most apps look the same. They're like lists of things, right? It's not like, it's not that helpful. To me, to me the worrisome part though, isn't whether any what you think of the different ways of switching apps, you know, the,

let's say the old iOS 8 way. Remember where you double click and you'd go the other way, left to right. Right. That's the thing that gets me is that they had a solution. The iOS 8 app switcher in theory would work much better. It would work as the command tab switching interface. To me, the problem isn't whether any one of these interfaces

is the right way and what's a shortcoming with it. And is it a problem? Like you're saying, hey, my mail client it just looks white with a bunch of text. I don't know that it's mail. Should the icon be bigger? That's all little details. To me, the fundamental problem is that clearly,

there was one team working on a switching interface for 3D touch and an entire different team working on a command tab switching. And that to me is, that's a very typical Apple-type problem where the company, and they have so many benefits from it by having these small autonomous teams working on individual things. And it does help the individual teams not get bogged down

in a massive bureaucracy. But on the other hand, you end up with not just with the left hand, not knowing what the right hand's doing, but a corporation like Apple has dozens of hands and none of them know what the other ones are doing. But there's clearly they should. There's just no doubt in my mind.

I think all over the interface, I see there are multiple interfaces, but all over like iOS, you know, that back, that back thing where it's like, you leave an app to go to another view of, in another app, and then it's like, go back to this thing. Like, first off, I think it's a good idea.

I think it's actually Apple admitting that a back button makes a lot of sense and a lot of situations, which is neither here nor there. You can argue all day. I will say this on Android phones, the back button is ridiculously useful. I actually find myself wishing for it sometimes when I'm using my iPhone. The concept of it is pretty pretty right on, right? It's the execution that seems odd to me. You know, it's like they put this almost as an afterthought in your, what do you call the bar? It's like the status bar, right? They put this like, they cover

your, they cover your carrier logo and your signal with a set of text and a little arrow telling you to go back to an application. Wasn't there another way to do this? Like, wasn't there another systematic way to say like, you can now go back, right? I mean, actually, Apple introduced a swipe to go back to things, right? Which is, I guess, maybe they're thinking this is in-app. I mean, it hasn't been well implemented in most things, actually. Remember the back swipe that was a big deal, and I think iOS 8?

It still is. It's still there, but it's not in- But I think it's weird that it conflicts with the press harder and swipe and you switch apps. Well, the whole thing is, the whole thing is like, you know, you're all on the left side of the phone. There's all kinds of stuff going on

that's sort of like random. I mean, this is, and this is like, actually gets the core of my complaint, which is it feels, so, sometimes I feel like I'm off the rails when I'm using my phone. Are you ever in the middle, like, does this ever happen to you?

You're like busy, you need to get some stuff done, you're trying to like get some information and copy and paste it, and move, like you're jumping between ass, maybe you need to share something, and it just feels like for a moment, this happens to me all the time. I'm like, what the, wait, what the fuck am I gonna do here?

Like, how am I going to get this done? And I find myself like thinking about how the phone is going to do it versus doing it. Yeah, well, I always feel like I love my phone and I do use it a lot. And there are a lot of good live. Well, but when I have something that involves going, moving information between two or three apps, inevitably, immediately, I wish I was on my Mac. Yeah. And I know that there's other people who love their iOS devices

more, but I get stuff done on my Mac between multiple apps. And I don't have to think about the software. It just happens. And I'm only thinking about the information or the task. Right. I think that's what you're saying. No, it is. But I think that, but between, with all of these interactions,

some hidden, some not, some placed in sort of hard to reach places, that back arrow is a good example. I often feel like, and I'm not even good at using chopsticks, but I often feel like I'm on the phone when I'm trying to do something between two apps. It's like I'm trying to pick up coins on my desk using chopsticks. Yeah, this is, I have, I've used a version of that, which is I feel like, I don't have, I feel like I don't have arms or hands and I'm trying to like work it with my shoulders.

Or maybe chop sticks, chop picking up coins with chopsticks is too harsh. Let's make something easy. Let's buy a headset I had no arms. I'm gonna say it's more like I have a pair of pliers, a good player of pliers, and I'm just trying to pick up a cube, a little dice, you know, a pair of dice.

You can pick up a die with a pair of pliers very easily. Like that's the sort of thing that would be. But if I could just use my fingers instead, it'd be a lot faster. It'd be easier. And that's to me is the Mac for some reason. So I think, and I think that, look, I agree with that. And I feel, I mean, I know that laptops are uncool

and people shouldn't use them anymore, or whatever, we're all telling each other. But the reality is, like, I feel much more like a human being when I'm in front of my computer. And now look, maybe that's an age thing, maybe it's a generation. Oh, I think it definitely might be, but I definitely feel, I feel like I'm more of a,

the computer is a part of me in a way that's a phone. Yes, and I think, but I do think that, as if the generation that follows us has grown up like purely in mobile, I'm sure they're very fast and very good, I'm sure they're very fast and very good. I'm sure they can type like way faster than we can or whatever. I still don't think that the full power of like

the computing platform is available to them in what they're doing. No matter what. So we're running short on time. We are running short on time. Let me double back to that. We have six minutes. I want to tell you about what I think is to me

the most worrisome thing that Apple did all year. Yeah. Which is the Apple TV remote, the new Apple TV. It's not good. It's a great idea and there's great things about it. I think that overall having the touch pad at the top is great. And I really love the way it interacts with the interface and that you get this sort of...

But a rewind button would be great, wouldn't it? You know you can go back 10 seconds just by, I think I'm gonna get it. I know that, but sometimes I just wanna like, not have to like, do a track path. And they solved a problem that every single streaming device I've ever used, ever, and I know I haven't used them all,

but the one thing that they solved, which is not all apps use it, but the Apple's own do, and third party apps can definitely use the APIs to do it, is that when you do swipe to scrub, you get this thumbnail that no matter what always updates. Like with other streaming devices, you'd start fast forwarding or rewinding and you just get a spinner. And it doesn't tell you what.

What don't you like about the remote? I cannot stand the way that in the name of symmetry, they've made this thing that you can pick up. It just fails as a designed object in so many obvious ways. Can you use it upside down all the time? I constantly use it upside down. So I know a lot of people put like a rubber band

around the bottom. So they know which side the bottom is. Right, and I put a piece of gaff tape around it. You ever use gaffer's tape? Yeah, sure. But I should, you know, this is Apple. This is the company that should be making it. This is like that. This is where I think the problem extends further than just the software. You look at the charge where they put the lightning port on the on the new mouse. I see I know people hold on. I feel like that's nonsense. And I feel like it's very obvious that they just,

they really don't want you to ever use it plugged in. And that's a reasonable choice. And it's no more. Is it though? Is it though? Because it works against everything that we know of mice. Like in every, like sort of fundamental way, it's like, okay, while you're charging, you can't use it.

So you're done with the mouse until the thing is charged. That's the first thing that's really problematic is like, oh, you need to use your mouse right now. Sorry, you're charging it. So that's the first is in terms of user experience, they fucked up the user experience. I think that's a very strange thing. The second thing is I actually think it's a kind of a cool

wink and nod to the history of mice that listen, you don't need to plug this in. It's this thing will charge in last for a month or whatever. But when you're charging, you can still use it and it's kind of like an old mouse. I will concede that the argument that the mouse having the plug-in port on the bottom, and so it's literally unusable. Can't be used well.

There's not any way you can use it. And B looks a little goofy while it's charging. I will concede that those, I can see those points and so maybe they should have stuck with the drawing board until they came up with a solution that solved all of the problems and that would be some sort of thing. I can think of the solution. It would have been to put it at the top. But for the most part, here's the difference though.

The difference is with the mouse, 99% of the time, it's not charging. And so it doesn't matter. Whereas with the Apple TV remote, it's as designed out of the box, if you don't do something which is totally silly for an Apple product, like put a rubber band around the bottom or put a piece of gaff tape around the bottom, so that, the whole purpose of that is so that you can tell by, I now know in the dark to pick up the phone by the sides and feel for where I have the tape. And then I know I have it oriented right. Because in addition to the fact that the symmetry of it makes it very difficult in the dark or just at, by just grabbing it off the side of the couch of your coffee

table to know which end is which. The whole purpose of the trackpad at the top is so that it's instantly available to you to touch and do something. And so if you make the mistake of guessing wrong, which is up, it's not just that you have to turn the remote around in your hand. It's like with the old Apple TV remote, right? With the old Apple TV remote, maybe because it was a largely symmetrical design, you could pick it up wrong,

but you'd recognize it instantly. Nothing bad happens. You just spin it around in your hand. And so nobody really complained about it. Yes, what you're describing happens in me all the time. So you lose maybe like a third of a second, to spin it around your hand.

Whereas with a new Apple TV remote, if you pick it up wrong, you've paused the stream. Yeah, like you started to cross-order. Or you started scrubbing it or something. Yeah, I know it around your hand. Whereas with a new Apple TV remote, if you pick it up wrong, you've paused the stream. Or maybe you started to crawl or you start scrubbing it or something. Yeah, I know this happens constantly today. Right. And so like you're with your family or whatever and you just pick up the remote

and you're watching TV together a movie and you, the dumb ass who, all you wanted to do is pick up the remote, you've paused the movie. And then everybody's like, what are you doing? Why are you writing it to that? We get to do rapid fire here because I know you got to go away very tight.

And I think people who listen to this are gonna be very upset. Now, the last time you were on, the last time you were on, we did like an hour and 15 or 20 minutes or something, and people were very mad because they wanted us to go longer. Now, you do like a three hour podcast, right? You wanna bring other bases, your podcast is like three hours, six or seven hours. It's like the Godfather cut that you're gonna send it on.

But that's a different beast though. I like having a one hour. I know, and I know my pal Jason Snow. He's doing a podcast now where they they just set like a half hour timer. And when a half hours up, that's it. And because it keeps you sharp. No, you got it. Okay, good.

So I'm going to do rapid fire really quickly. So Google alphabet. First off, alphabet. I don't it's going to be very. I can't get used to it. Most valuable company in the world. Well, now they they went up. They went down more valuable than Apple. How does that make you feel? I don't get used to it. Most valuable company in the world. Well, now they went up, they went down.

More valuable than Apple, how does that make you feel? I don't care. I think it's, you know, and it certainly fits. It clearly seems to fit to me the broader world's perspective of the two companies. Right? There's more optimism about Google or alphabet where you want to call them than it was about Apple.

Well, that does seem to be the case, but it's not like Google has wildly diversified. It's not like they have wildly diverse revenue streams. Right. No. So it's one of those things where it's like, yeah. Okay, so you don't have strong internet. I find it curious though, because I find the argument that Apple is way too dependent on the iPhone, it's

true that they are for the amount of money they're making. But Google is just as dependent on search. Right. Well. And I don't know. Maybe search. But everybody has their core business, right? It does seem like Google is exploring, I think for investors who are, let's be honest,

fear-based people, they're not like making them, they're not really, I mean, yes, they're analytical, but a lot of these investments are like, I don't know, maybe it's, is it gonna be bad? Maybe I should sell my stuff. I do think that they look like they have an eye to the future right now more than Apple does. I feel like Apple, partially because they don't show

their cards. That's exactly it. I think that, but partially because they've reached such an enormous place of profitability and because, but I think there's a flatness to that profitability. I think you're exactly right though that investors like that Google tells you what they're working on. Right. And they just even if it's bullshit. Yep. And they just like that Apple doesn't and Apple is definitely not going to change. And that's they're more open than they've ever been. You never know. But not about future products.

Yeah. They're not going to suddenly be rolling around in an Apple self-driving car anytime soon. Okay, we're a little bit over. I'm going to keep going. Yeah, we'll go five minutes over time. Okay, I wrote something about Twitter for the New Yorker. You recently wrote a little something that you tweeted something.

Give me a couple minutes on your opinion of Twitter right now. And I want to say, I want to preface this by saying, I wrote something which is like kind of which the headline had just had a question mark on the end of it. It. And I want to say, I want to preface this by saying, I wrote something which is like, kind of which the headline had just had a question mark on the end of it. It actually did on the front page of the New Yorker but didn't on the post itself, because it was the end of Twitter, which is...

The end of Twitter, it was like, why the post was actually about was the end of Twitter question. It was like, the New Yorker's version of Clickbait. Yeah, it was like, the point was like, what is happening now and what might happen that could spell doom for Twitter? Not like, not like, because I love Twitter and I wanted to survive, but I do think,

it's become people with confused products that aren't really executing. I think Twitter is like a microcosm of Apple in a certain way, whereas Twitter, I think Twitter has reached maximum Twitter and maximum Twitter is great. It should be a very healthy business and it's a very interesting business and it's super useful. They've got something amazing, but it really isn't growing that much anymore. It's about everybody.

Even if it's not growing, and Anthony DeRosa wrote a response to it, and it was about like, let's keep it the way it is. It's like, okay, that's fine, but the way it is is also not good. In a sense that like, conversations are tough, threading is really tough, verification is tough, a new user experience is really tough. And I will say, like, you know, I wrote in the article about gamer gate. I basically said like, these guys

have been responsible for a lot of like, really bad harassment that Twitter didn't know how to handle. And I spent the entire weekend being harassed by gamer gate people. Did you really? Yeah, oh yeah. And they were like, the form of harassment was this. How dare you say we're harassing people. And it was like, it was a wall of these guys.

And some girls, I suppose as well, just like completely, and they were pulling up old tweets of mine from years ago. And like, just, it was fucked up. I mean, it was a truly crazy situation. And look, I can handle it. I've been harassed. Look, I mean, look, I'm a relatively big target on Twitter.

But it was strange to me. It was like a self-fulfilling prophecy where I mentioned these guys. If you mention again, I mean, I challenge you, write the word game brigade on your site. I mean, you will be totally harassed. You will be completely swarmed by these people. Like, say, even say anything innocuous about GameRigate.

Like, just the word will send them like on to you. So, the other point is, but they do have, they do have these, like, you know, Dustin Curtis, did you read the thing I tweeted about? Dustin Curtis wrote this piece called Fixing Twitter. It was, he actually wrote in September of last year. But one of the things he points out, and I think I've experienced this,

and I'm sure you have, is you drop a link of an image or a video or something in Twitter, and it doesn't always expand it. It's like these little things about the product that seem like why haven't they gotten it right? How could they not get these basic things right? Show me multimedia if I drop it into a post. I just feel like that they are torn

between what Twitter is already good for, what it could be better at given it what it is, given its true self, combined with the size that they hope that it would be in the number of people they hope would use it, right? There's this, it just turns out after, Twitter's been around long enough that we know. And the answer is it's a lot of people they hope would use it, right? There's this, it just turns out after, Twitter's been around long enough that we know. And the answer is, it's a lot of people,

but it is not anywhere near a Facebook size audience. And the truth is, it's also unfortunately not like an Instagram size audience. Which I don't have a problem with. Right, but the market might. But the market is a problem with it, but more to the point, it's like you have to tell us, Twitter has to tell us what it's expectation. I just think that they

keep glomming on these features in the hopes that these features will suddenly make it of interest to way more people than it's of interest to now. And they don't. And instead they just dilute what's there. I can't believe how many people my wife still uses the Twitter web interface. I find the Twitter web interface. I'd find the Twitter web interface. I look at it and I just feel like I'm being pranked. I know it's terrible and it doesn't update. It tells you there's an update but it doesn't update.

But on the other hand, Twitter has some amazing stuff. There are some stuff that is amazing. Every time you watch, my main point is I've always been a news junkie. I mean, it's no surprise given what I've done and the career I've always been a news junkie. I mean, it's no surprise given what I've done and the career I've built for myself But I remember like I was super happy in high school when I got my

Home Room teacher for 10th 11th 12th grade He was the social studies teacher and in the suburbs of Philly He had a subscription to the Philadelphia Inquirer So I was actually happy to get to school every day so I could read a Really good newspaper right and at the time in the late 80s and early 90s, the Philadelphia Inquirer was actually one of the best newspapers in the world. I just love the idea of you rushing to school early

and then like cracking up at a newspaper. No, it was hard to get up. But once I was up, I was like, just give me the paper. And Mr. Trica was great. And I would let me read the front page if I wanted whatever it was great. I love the newspaper. I got to college in 1991.

And the first thing I did is I found a friend across the hall in the dorm who noticed that I was buying 35 cent copies of the inquire at a newsstand every day and said, hey, do you want to go have on a subscription? We can get it for this ridiculous price. And so I had got a subscription to a newspaper in college and it was great. I've been a news junkie my whole life and Twitter is the greatest thing to happen to a news junkie ever. It's great, it's great, but it's also fraught. I mean, I agree with you. Truth is, most people aren't new junkies, right?

Most people went to college in the 90s, didn't get a subscription to the newspaper. And most people in high school didn't really get excited that they can... And that's kind of my issue with some of the feedback that I heard where people are like, just leave it the way it is. And it's like, okay, I get it, like for me or for you, it's a really great experience. And it is, by the way, true. I totally use it as like my newsfeed, but most people don't. That's actually where the minority of users on Twitter.

It's just another thing that I wish, even more than Apple, I guess. I just wish that Twitter was a privately held company. And they could monetize it for what it is. And if it doesn't, what's their market cap? Maybe you can get a fun together and go and buy it. I don't know, but it's, to me though, like, and they have this amazing mind share. Like, I think people underestimate this,

but I don't watch a lot of TV news, but, because I feel like when you're, the more of a news junkie you are, the less satisfying TV news is because it goes too slow and it just repeats the same things over and over again. And gloss is over, yeah. But when something is on, like the, you know, I put the TV on when Iowa caucuses

were announced the other day. Yeah. And there's, you know, something like that, or one of these debates that I watch, do you know every single person who comes on TV news, they tell you their name and they tell you their Twitter handle. Right.

Every single person, they tell you their name and their Twitter handle. What an amazing thing that is. And during this live event, like the Iowa caucus is one example, I would say like any awards show is another one where it's like, yeah, everybody's talking and we're joking. And that's a news junky thing, right? And that's the what is going on right now, which that to me is the one percent, we're like 1% the 1% in that use case. I feel like of all their users and of what Twitter has to do to be whatever business it wants to be.

It's like those are almost two separate businesses. I don't know, I just feel like there's something that they could, if they focus, they really need to focus on that to me, the what is going on right now. Well, I agree, I don't disagree with that. And in fact, like my sort of one of my through lines is this complaint that like that was the thing

that made me feel most like this thing is a utility. I have to have this in my life. This is so important. And it's the thing that feels most fucked with by some of the stuff that they've been doing. Like moments is a great example. Yeah. It's like, first off, I use Tweetbot for the most part.

So I don't see moments at all. Right. But when I use the app and I look at it, I'm like, this suck. It's a sucky experience. It has nothing to do with the core Twitter experience. You know, they're telling me I'm doing like 10,000 word posts. It's like, I can understand, I can sort of understand like wanting to have expandable tweets, but there is also some, there is a purity to that character limit that forces a different kind of a different kind of immediate communication. I have a hunch that the way they're gonna do that

will be fine. And I know that Jack's hinted at it, but I really think that they're just gonna do it as like an attachment type. So in the same way that to me, Twitter didn't get ruined in any way when they started showing you the photos in line. Right.

I think that they're just gonna show the article preview in line. And at the time. So I think one of the best things they ever did was the cards for news sites, where it's like you see the card in the app or in the game. And actually, you don't, you know, it's one of the things I use Tweetex,

so you see them there. I do like it. I think it's a great idea and I still have an implemented it there, incredible. No, you should do it. Well, I mean, it could be, but it could be a detriment to your revenue.

I don't think so, because I think that I- I mean, does it show full articles? It just shows examples. But I think that I've successfully set up my, the sponsorship stuff in a way that it's, wherever my attention is being given, it conveys that the sponsor's message is, so I don't need page, you know, if it affects my actual page

views on the site itself, it's fine. What is your, what is your, what do you use? What is it built on? What is Daring Fireball built on? Is it, it's not WordPress, right? No, it's movable type. That's movable type. Oh my God.

But in the words of Hansolo, you know, I made a lot of custom modifications myself. I don't think those are the exact words are they? No, it's not paraphrase, you're paraphrase. So go pass. Upgrades, I think upgrades is, no, I don't know. Interesting, I was actually, I was the exact words. No, some paraphrase. You're paraphrase. So go pass. Upgrades, I think upgrades is, no, I don't know. Interesting. I was actually trying to figure out, I was reading it earlier.

And I was like, what is this? I'm always looking now. What is the platform? I wouldn't recommend it on it for anybody. What is moveable type even? Is that a thing anymore? Nah, I don't recommend it. You're living in the past, man.

But it fits very, very well with the way I look at a CMS and what I want from a CMS. And it also happens to fit extremely well with my very limited programming skills and what I'm good at programming. It's very straightforward, very simplistic, right? Yeah, very much.

It's my own problem. And you're slightly extremely simplistic. But it really, it effectively just spits out a bunch of, I save a post in movable type and it spits out a text file on my server in whatever format I want. And then I have little PHP scripts that I've written that can assemble

those little pieces into a page. Well, that sounds like a goddamn dream. All right, I think we should wrap now, because we've got over like 10 minutes. I swear we'll be started. Let me ask you this this just before we go. I want to wrap up. But do you think a year from now, let's say I'm on the show February,

we're talking February 2017. Okay. Do you think Twitter is in better shape or worship or if we having the exact same conversation? I feel like something's got to happen this year and I don't feel like it. I feel like it has to either get better or get worse. Let me say this. I think for us to lose Twitter would be a great loss. I think it would be heartbreaking.

It would be heartbreaking. But what I see, what I actually see the bigger threat to Twitter is not, I mean, frankly, what I see as the bigger threat to Twitter is not that we, I mean, what I find is that, people talk about what would replace it, right? People say, mean, what I find is that, you know, people talk about like, what would replace it, right? People say like, well, what would replace Twitter?

But when you look at technology, it's not about what would replace it. It's about what would follow it. And I think that's the question to ask and to think about right now, is what would follow Twitter, right? What could somebody, what could a Facebook or an Instagram or a WhatsApp or a peach,

I wish I used a sort of a joke, but not really, or anything that is a Snapchat, what might they learn or use that Twitter created that could be the next thing that we use that is the next Twitter, right? So when I look at like, when I look at what Twitter does and when I look at what the service provides, I love it and I think it's utility and I wanna at what the service provides, I love it, and I think it's utility,

and I wanna keep holding on to it, I want it to get better. And I believe it can get better. I think if it doesn't get better in a very clear, directed way, what I worry about is, or what I think about is, there's gonna be something,

there's gonna be some point where Facebook decides we want this live audience. They're already doing it with stadium. Have you used stadium? The new Facebook sports thing? No. It's basically live, it's basically live audience. They're already doing it with stadium. Have you used stadium? The new Facebook sports thing? No, it's basically like live, it's basically like live sports. I mean, it's almost like a Twitter experience. It sounds interesting. Yeah. So like basically the question becomes like, what is the thing that follows it? If Facebook decides we want to own this space or if Instagram decides we can be in this

space because we already have this big installed user base. And we already have people like using Facebook to, or sorry, using Instagram to share news or have conversations. And like I actually look at, are we having this in conversation in a year? I think Twitter is around in a year. I think I would hope there has to be some improvement to the product itself, right?

It has to like have a, it has to have something happen, I think, meaningful in terms of product design and execution and user experience. But I think that in a year from now, what I would be looking at, and what I'm thinking about all the time, is like, what will be the thing that doesn't replace Twitter, but comes after it that follows it, and does, takes what Twitter thought of, which was this real-time conversation and this ability to follow and track news and track sources and hear from your friends as well as like, you know, major institutions, and putting that in the kind of live context, like, what, you know, what might the next thing be that takes that and then makes it more modern, more fun, more smart? Like, I think those are real questions to ask

because I actually see lots of avenues where they could grow, but they're not growing. The thing I keep thinking about is I, in hindsight, and I would have disagreed with it at the time, because I also disagreed with when they bought Instagram. Not disagree, but I was very pessimistic about the future. I loved Instagram right from the start, and then Facebook bought them, and I thought,

oh, this is going to wreck it. And instead, the opposites happened. They've let them stay true to themselves and they very sharply touched it. And in hindsight, what I think might have been the best thing for Twitter would have been for Facebook to buy it. If Facebook would have been willing to do the same thing. I mean, sort of. I don't know if we can even rule that out.

I mean, maybe they'll buy it. I know. I think I look at, I will say this. I look at, and, and, and, and turn that laser like, Zuckerberg mind on, figure out what is the core thing you're good at. And that to me is like, man, and it's such an interesting comparison between Twitter and Instagram

because they're so kind of fundamentally the same idea. Look, here's people you follow, you can be public or private, and you get a stream of everything they post in order, and here it is. And Instagram over the years has stayed so true to their original. It's a very pure product. Somebody who used Instagram 1.0 and got into it and then you showed them today's Instagram, they would get it right away.

And then if you showed somebody from 2007, Twitter today, they'd be like, what the hell is going on? It's been a very methodic climb for them. I think it's very clear like their direction. Though, have you used peach? Yeah. So here's the thing, I've used peach and I, listen, I know people laugh it off, but I used peach and I was like, what the fuck in point?

This doesn't make any sense to me. But the more I've used peach, the more I see something really interesting. I see peach is, okay, and I'm not saying the peach is gonna be anything. It may be dead in six months, but there is something that's high and low about peach, that's shallow and also deep about the way you can, there's all of these things you can do.

It's a very open and complex form of micro-blogging. In that, everything is like, you don't just have to do one thing, right? It isn't just like I typed 140 characters or it's an image. It's like you can draw or you can say what the sound volume is where you're sitting or you can put a rating in or the weather outside. There's all these weird little things you can do. And I actually look at that and I think it has a lot in common with Snapchat, though it's more, it's like more than Snapchat.

But I look at that and I think this is interesting because one of the things about Twitter is like, it's great to share these little bursts of information, but like what you can share and how you can share and like the depth of that sharing and that conversation is really somewhat limited, right? That's a plus and a minus. But I do think like, where might they go that

allows you to be more expressive on that platform that keeps the conversational live feel of it? I think that's an interesting thing to think about. And like, so look, I don't know, in a year to answer questions along the way of saying, I don't know the answer to that. I don't think Twitter is going away anytime soon. I do think it's possible that they are part of a larger organization in a year from now. I mean, there's been a lot of talk about Google buying them. Yep. And here's the thing.

I don't know if that would be good or bad. Well, I think that the record shows, let's just not even think about what Google would do with them, but the record shows that when Google buys things, it's not as often not that great. They don't seem to do, they don't typically turn a product. Actually, I would just go so far as to say that when you buy a product as opposed to buying a technology, like Apple buys technologies, right, they don't buy products for the most part.

So Apple is out of it. When you buy a product, usually it's not good. It just whoever buys it. When a big, big company buys a product, it's not good. Except for Facebook, which we really buy things and doesn't fuck with them very much. And that's, to me, is the most, one of the most interesting and admirable at things about Facebook. I mean, we've got to imagine that Facebook is the very least sane. There's got to be that, I mean, in some ways I feel like maybe what Facebook does with the companies that it buys is it's like, lose the the, like those are the

conversations they have with those companies, where it's not like, we want you to completely reshape your business and become part of the board, but we'll help you with some like critical thinking in some key areas. I think that the Facebook is one of the most extraordinarily well-managed companies. And I know right now we're way over time. Way over. So you're on your fault. So you're on your fault. We talked about earnings. And Facebook had blockbuster earnings last week. And they stock one up. And over and over and over again, people said,

this is a very well-managed company. And I think that here's a case where the consensus view is exactly right. I think that Facebook, A, totally understands the core product, Facebook itself. B made the shift from being a thing that you type in a web browser to being a thing that is on your phone. It just couldn't have gone better. Yeah. Could not have gone better. And it was essential to them.

They had to recognize that this entire thing that we built and the main way we thought that our product was is not built for the future. Right. And it did that. And see, I feel like what they have is a confidence at the executive leadership point that we can buy this thing and we don't need to put our fingerprints on it at all.

Right. Like Instagram is still Kevin Sistram's thing. Right. And by the way, they're monetizing really well. I mean, like, if you look at what they're doing and advertising, I actually am impressed. I have to say, like, I don't find Instagram ads intrusive at all. Like, do I notice them?

Do I, am I like, well, I wish there wasn't an ad here sometimes. But for them, can I tell you a weird thing? I don't see them. I use Instagram every day. And I, well, that's because they look like Instagram posts. No, I don't think I don't I've I've spoken to other people and I've said this on my podcast like not everybody gets it's whatever crazy Facebook fueled algorithm

That's really interesting. I was not aware of that. Well, I'll tell you this they're totally Like they're totally great. They're totally fine. I've seen what you would expect I've seen screenshots of the I want to see them because I'm interested in the business. If I can go into settings and check a box that says, show me Instagram ads, I would check it because I want to see them. Well, it's funny that it's funny how comfortable we've got with this idea that something can be injected

into your Instagram is like, it doesn't bother me when I see an ad injected into my feed. For some reason, it just doesn't feel like, I actually get more me when I see like an ad injected into my feed. For some reason, it just doesn't feel like I actually get more annoyed when I see it on Facebook than I do on Instagram. And I'm not sure why. I think part of it is because it's visual. Like it's purely visual. Like the reality is like if you're going to advertise on Instagram, you're still using an image. And it's really not that bad to look at an image. And most advertising images are pretty nice looking. So it's one of these things where I do think it's a lot like a magazine advertising in a way where you're just like, oh yeah, that's a nice looking thing here. Oh, maybe I'm interested,

maybe I'm not, I'm going to keep moving. Anyhow, okay, now we're way over time. We should wrap up. Look, this is really, there's so much more I want to talk about. We have to do this more often because the last one we did was like last year or some time. John, thank you for joining me. John, it's always fun thank you for joining me. John's always fun. I really enjoyed this. I love this conversation. I want to talk to you more about these things.

You'll have to come back and until then, oh, I had a question for you. You drive a car, right? I do. Would you ever consider getting a Tesla? Oh, absolutely. Without question. Would you get a Model 3 if there was like a 35,000? I mean, not, look, obviously, you could afford the Model

Axe if you wanted, John. I don't know. Long story short, well, they are pretty expensive now. Very expensive. But we don't drive long distances, so the range issue isn't, wouldn't be that much of an issue. And we're on the East Coast, so we're going to get filled in with the charging stations,

as opposed to if we lived, I don't know, Kansas or something like that. Right. Definitely a possibility. I've, my gut feeling as a non-car guy, but who does care about his car is that I feel like my next car is probably still going to run on gas, and then my, that'll be the last gas part thing I ever, oh. Yeah, I think we've got one more gen, at least for probably people like us who are early adopters of things.

I think I'm in one more generation of, one more like three or three year lease of a game. I'm fascinated by them. I would definitely consider it. If I were in the market for a car right now, I would think about it. Okay, that's all I needed to know from you. John, thank you again for doing this.

And I will talk to you again soon. Great. Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow, of course. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best, although I understand that they're driving down a lonely road and the battery is almost empty. And there's no charger inside. you you