Tomorrow - Episode 4: Shani Hilton and the Real News

Episode Date: May 2, 2015

Shani Hilton is the Executive Editor of BuzzFeed News — or as Josh calls it: Executive Editor, Real News, BuzzFeed. The verbal haymakers fly left and right when the two square off in the Tomorrow studio, discussing topics such as the BuzzFeed code of ethics, poltergeists, classical music, and black sororities. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to Tomorrow. I'm your host, Joshua Polsky. Today on the show we're going to discuss Ghost Hoaxes, Fugues, and Capsule War Drobes. But first, a word from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the easiest way to create a beautiful website, blog, or online store for you and your ideas. Squarespace features an elegant interface, beautiful templates, and incredible 24-7 customer

support. Try Squarespace at squarespace.com and enter offer code Joshua at checkout to get 10% off. Squarespace build it beautiful. Tomorrow was also sponsored by Need. Need is refined retailer and lifestyle publication for men. Each month, Need sources incurate the selection of exclusive products from brands around the world. They're presented in a monthly editorial, a lot like we'd expect to find in a typical men's magazine, allowing you to find the best products without any need for copious, shopping or research.

Which of course can be very time consuming. Need just launch volume 2.5 featuring items from the likes of Newtie, Bellenoque, Marshall artists, serial, Nizolo, and more. The new collection is available at neededition.com. They've also got their Spring Forward campaign running for a few more days. Small micro collections to help you transition into spring at neededition.com slash essentials. Discounts are up to 50% off. Tomorrow listeners who use the promo code, promo code, that's right, promo code. During checkout we'll receive 20% off their order. Have an amazing guest with me today, a wonderful guest, a fantastic guest, a human named Shani Hilton. Hi Josh.

That's good. We did that before. The first time we did it, I don't think I appropriately prompted Shani to say hello and then I was like, say hello. I said, I look at jerk. I'm in podcast, newbie. So. So, Shani, so, Shani is the, let me tell you about Shani.

Shani is the executive editor of Buzzfeed News. Do you say of Buzzfeed News or for Buzzfeed News? For Buzzfeed News. I understand. Not of. Well, there's two of us. There's Dory Sheffrier who's the executive editor of the culture of Buzzfeed News.

Well, that's different. That's a different role. Yeah. You're sort of overseeing all of the news. The hard news operation. Should you have a modifier than like executive editor hard news? That just seems very complicated.

Let me make a recommendation, new title, executive editor, comma hard news. I'm gonna take that under advisement. Okay. So anyhow, Shiny is responsible for the real news that you see on BuzzFeed. What is that? Well, sorry. Well, like there's a lot of stuff on Buzzfeed that isn't real news. I mean, it's not news at all.

It's not even trying to be news. It's entertainment. That's like saying, you know, somebody's like the editor of big brother. I'm CBS. It's getting ready to. I mean, on Buzzfeed, there's, okay, on Buzzfeed, there's there's funny stuff and cute stuff and weird stuff, and then there's news.

And there's a lot of other stuff, but there's news. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff. Okay, so there's not fake news, not like the onion. No, it's just like, I'm not saying I'm not asking, I know that it's not like, it's not the onion. Anyhow, Shawnee and I, we know each other, I mean through various people but your friends with my wife Laura and lots of other people that I know. I am. I work with your your sister-in-law. You work with my sister-in-law, Katie Natopoulos, who is an internet personality. Also has a podcast, a Buzzfeed podcast called Inter- Oh, what's happened?

Shani, just sit back. You were kind of relaxing and I'm going to come to you. Is that more what you want to do? Sure. Now don't you do it. Now you'll be very self conscious about your relax. I know I'm concerned that I was coming off very tense. I want to read you. I'm really gone off to me. Like a few of something. Taking them off his feet so you can come in with a red I mean, I think real news could be interpreted in a bunch of different ways Like what the hard eating news all news is found the real stuff. Wow, okay, she a poly microphone life is an illusion Just news life in general

Where do we leave off? I don't even know what you're talking about. We're talking about how we know each other. Oh, yes. You are, let's write. We know each other there are a bunch of friends and my sister-in-law came to the top of us, as you just said. Anyhow, I thought you'd be really fun to have on this podcast, because we basically do many of the same things. You're actually, there aren't that many people I think that I could talk to who I feel like really understand my job,

who do the same job because it's a bunch of different things and it's on the internet and it's news. And anyhow, I'm not saying that, I'm saying your job is probably more fun and cool, okay? It's fun. During the real news at BuzzFeed. But anyhow, but we have similar jobs. And so I thought it'd be fun to talk. And we don't have to talk about the news

real or otherwise, but we can. We can. I love the first let's talk about your history because Magnus, my producer printed out a bio, which you know it's weird because we know each other we've talked, you know, and I would never think that I'd be checking out a bio of yours but I'm looking at it now. And you're very impressive, very impressive resume. This was taken off of LinkedIn. Which I haven't updated in some time. You were the NBC for Morning Editor from February 2013 to October 2013.

Yeah. What is that in sale? I got to work at 5am. This is in DC. This was in Washington, DC. WRC TV, channel four. And I would go to work at, I would arrive at work at 5 AM

and put things on our website to do with the news. Mm-hmm. The real news. The real local news. The things that people care about, like, you know, is their traffic. Oh. And what was up with the police cars down the street

last night, yeah. that's fun murders traffic Um, I worked with a bunch of really like delightful morning news people who drink lots of coffee and had lots of energy. Oh, yeah Are you a morning person? I am now that job actually turned me into a morning person really? Yeah, what time do you wake up now? 630 what time do you go to sleep? 10 11 Consistently yes, yeah, I have a problem with that. I don't know. I can't I can't seem to get myself out of My sleeping habits. What are your sleeping habits? Well for a very long time I would stay up very very late till like three or four or five in the morning and then I would go to bed and I would sleep until like noon

Or one in the morning, and then I would go to bed, and I would sleep until like noon, or one in the afternoon. This is in my formative, this is in my DJ and producer years. Oh, really? Which I know you wanna talk about. I would love to. I see you when I talk about, but no, but then, you know,

I got real jobs and a lot of, well, news jobs, which are morning jobs, it turns out. And I've been trying to break myself of that habit ever since. So that's been like nearly a decade of trying to break myself of that habit ever since. That's been nearly a decade of trying to not sleep like that. So now I go to bed, I'll go to bed at 12, you know, I'll go to bed at 12 or 1 and get up. Sometimes I mean, today I got up at 6.

Right. You know, I was going to say, how did a baby affect that, but your baby like remarkably sleeps most of the hours. She sleeps in an hour. She was probably the most helpful thing in the world to getting my sleep schedule better because there's no, I mean, first off, you're exhausted. I mean, I wasn't as exhausted as Laura was, but I was also exhausted. And there's no, you don't have a choice. Like, the baby's going to get up. And Zelda is a remarkable sleeper. And I don't want to, I mean, I don't

believe in jinxes, so I don't have to worry about that. But she's a remarkable sleeper and she goes to bed at like 7 30 or 8 o'clock and we'll sleep till 7 30 or 8 o'clock, just straight through. And it's amazing. Amazing. I was talking about this, maybe I don't think I talked about this in the podcast yet, but I was talking about this the other day with somebody, maybe with Laura, and I was just saying, it's so incredible to think about Zelda's physical situation because-

You're talking about this with me. Oh, we did talk about this. We had lunch and we talked about it. But I've been thinking a lot about it, which is she's never eaten, she's never had meat. She's never eaten anything that isn't like pure and natural and just like, you know, handmade by, you know, her parents, her mother, really. She does like selter though. She loves selter. That's not basically natural. She does like Selter though. She loves Selter.

That's basically natural. She does love Selter. You know, she sleeps 12 hours a night. She just like, she just must be so, she's so healthy. And I was just like, a batch of if you live like that, your entire life. It must be amazing for people who do that. You probably feel really good. You feel amazing, but you never know what it's like to be completely shit-faced drunk, which I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Yeah, I don't.

I can't go back. Right. It's that kind of thing that makes me wish I had. Is there like maybe if you like for seven years, eight legs, Zelda, your body would reset to its earlier state? We know the human body has amazing restorative abilities. Yeah. I don't know if it would go straight back, but So anyhow, but you were in DC you were doing news you read your before right before

Buzzfeed you were at Wait, that was an NBC. Well, that's it. You went from NBC to Buzzfeed. I did. Yeah So you moved to New York. I didn't know you're new You've never lived here before. I've never lived in New York. I lived outside of New York for four years in New Jersey, Central New Jersey. It's not really outside of New York. But I would take NJT into the city. So you've been in New York. You've been in New York multiple times.

We should go back and talk about what that real news comic is because it's haunting me. So let me just be clear. So BuzzFeed does a lot of different stuff. They have they have a cool advertisements. They have this whole video thing they're doing, which is just like hundreds of videos. It seems like hundreds of videos. I don't know like every day. There's fun stuff, which is created by people who work for Buzzfeed. But it's like a quiz or a list or like an art, you know, it's like somebody loses their phone and then they become a celebrity in China. Not news exactly.

Or it's like how to organize your closet. Yeah, right, servicy stuff. Which could be, I mean, which veers into the... It's servic journalism. Veers into the world of news, but isn't news news. Real news. As I refer to it. And, but you are responsible for the hard news,

for the stuff that is, that usually the bad stuff, crazy news for the stuff that is Usually the bad stuff Crazy stuff. Yeah, often the bad stuff. It can be upsetting the stuff that's Confusing stuff that we are trying to illuminate like all the stuff going on in Baltimore You guys are covering that yeah, and that's like you or you are owning that coverage That's you got to figure out how to cover that stuff. Yeah, I mean what I have really great Section editors who so for example, for Baltimore, are breaking news editors, Liza Tasi and Tom Namco.

Did you just hit the microphone with your pen? I'm fiddling with the pen. That's okay. Do it every more. It's a, this is a safe space. You could just be yourself. Okay. Oh wait.

And so, you know, the breaking news team, they're covering it from New York. We sent down three reporters. Two are still there. The national editor, Adam Sirworth is also kind of coordinating that coverage. I'm looking at it more from the level of, are we like hitting our marks in terms of, you know, being comprehensive? Are we breaking news? Are we?

I mean, the yesterday we broke the news that hundreds of people have been held for longer than they should have by the police without being charged. Right. So it's like that kind of thing. It's news. It's news. Right, so this is the thing.

So you guys actually do a lot of really great news. This is the, okay, I'm just getting to the most perplexing thing. It's not perplexing. I get it. Maybe I'm old and I think this is the problem. I'm an old person Or I'm getting older but I was looking at Buzzfeed the homepage on Buzzfeed Buzzfeed.com. Yes, the internet website. I mean most people don't ever see that page

It's not right. I mean what percentage of your traffic actually goes to the front page I don't know but it's not a lot. It's not a lot. It's not a significant amount. As they say, the home page is dead. Although it does drive, I would say it doesn't matter what goes on the home page. It does drive traffic to posts. It just isn't. So home page is like really, it's really quite confusing to me.

I mean, I know what it's doing, but it's also, you've got hard hitting, serious, sometimes very upsetting news. And then you've got, I think today, some of the stories were which Game of Thrones, it's like which Game of Thrones characters zodiac are you or something like that? And then there was another one that was like the top story, which was like a video about like boob, like how to like do. Boob hacks. Boob hacks, right? But then like in the midst of it,

there are stories about Baltimore and politics and like sexual assault and like all the stuff that's like, you know, real stuff. So anyhow, does it, is it hard? It seems hard like for you to be in the midst of it, is it difficult to try to mean to, I don't know, to balance that stuff, or I mean, you don't know it at the homepage, you're not responsible for, like, you're not.

Well, you know, people on my team are. Right. You know, that's a good question. I mean, I think partly because I'm so deep in it, I don't notice anymore the, what people consider a weird juxtaposition. To me, it's totally normal to have. Right. Well, maybe it is totally normal.

I mean, that's the way it is. Yeah, like dogs who hate bad, it's next to, you know, totally normal to have. Well, maybe it is totally normal. Maybe that's the way it's just. Dogs who hate bad, it's next to the Napolar earthquake. But it is something that we were thinking about. That's a really good example. That's a good example of the extremely high, extremely low. Like, lives lost in a horrible tragedy, a tragic world event, and dogs who don't like to be bathed on the other head, which is hard. Which is not, I would say it's a tragic world event.

No, no, it's not, but it is something that's heartwarming that people like to look at, which, you know, it's tough, I don't have like, I don't have a good answer for this, but it's something that we've been thinking about, when we do focus groups, we do look at how people respond to our homepage.

And we are in the process of kind of redesigning. I've been a part of this sort of Buzzfeed news branding project the last six months or so, where we are slowly rolling out different design choices and really trying to make it clear that what people are seeing reporting, original reporting from us, that's what they're seeing. Yeah. I mean, do you think the homepage,

I mean, everybody says the homepage is dead and I was sort of joking about it. No, the homepage matters and the homepage is actually gonna, you know, it's going to change. Right. That's my theory on it is that it's not that it's dead. It's just transforming and we don't know what the end result of the transformation looks like yet.

Yeah. So everybody's like screw the homepage. It's like when people were like emails dead, but it's not actually in the drives a lot of like our home page is like actually really kind of old-school-looking compared to a lot of news sites, which tend to have much much fewer stories with much bigger pictures. And we have a lot of stuff like the new Atlantic design. Right. Oh my god. It's huge. We have huge pictures too on Bloomberg and I think we're gonna we're gonna probably make more room for headlines and make some of the pictures a little bit smaller.

Okay. Because I think we might have gone overboard with this picture. I felt the way about the Atlantic when I was looking at it yesterday and the Atlantic really. Yeah it's like just a huge picture than down the corner. And you're like oh there's six. Six point. There's just. First I thought I hadn't loaded fully. I thought I was waiting for the words to show up. That's not a good sign. I'm not knocking the Atlantic. No, the Atlantic's amazing. But you know, you want to, you want to make sure people know that there's a headline or whatever. Yeah. I think. What do I know? This is some inside baseball stuff. This is two journalists talking about things that nobody else thinks about.

I think it's fascinating. I think it's fascinating too. But do you realize, I mean, you do realize that there's a very small, this is like on Twitter, I feel like this happens all the time. On Twitter, people are really wild up about something. Maybe we'll talk a little bit about BuzzFeed controversy in a second, because this is a really good segue. People get really wild up journalists or like, how dare Brian Williams, like this Brian Williams has got to go.

I mean, admittedly, you know, he did lie about stuff, but I actually wasn't real about that at all. No, but I'm just saying, I think that it looks like everybody's mad because I follow a lot of journalists. Right. Presumably follow a lot of journalists. I do. And journalists are via, you know, the very outspoken. Yes. What they do is communicate with the world about things of import in their minds. Anyhow, I just feel like there's this whole thing where people just get really been out of shape about stuff that doesn't matter. I mean, it doesn't matter to the rest of the world and if you went out on the street and you asked a thousand people like How do you feel about this Brian Williams scandal? They'd be like who's Brian Williams and what's a scandal?

You know, I don't know I hear you so you had but you guys had a scandal recently I'm very delvin into this yeah Go ahead so and I don't want to go into the whole thing about describing it because frankly I'm not sure I even understand the scandal because I'm so busy like I don't think I have the whole story, but the gist of it seemed to be Post was deleted There was a post about dove that was deleted. It was a critical sort of a personal essay sort of an editorial about dove Am I getting this right so far? Yeah, about a campaign that they're about an ad campaign They know and it was removed and then the content of the posters removed about Dove, am I getting this right so far? Yeah, about a campaign, the theater. About an ad campaign, they do.

And it was removed. And then the content of the posters removed. Content of the posters removed. The post, the shell, the container, the URL of the post existed. But everything that was inside of it, was it everything? I believe so.

Was taken out unceremoniously by a person. What person? Ben Smith. Ben Smith, the editor-in-chief, who as I understand it's a lovely man. He is? Anyhow, but so then there was a big controversy about why was this done,

is BuzzFeed protecting a brand or whatever. But Dove was not actually an advertiser. No, not to my knowledge. At the time, right, I'm sorry, I feel like you're on the witness stand. You're like not to my knowledge. I Well can't answer that. Anyhow, the any of so it started this huge controversy and then you guys did like an internal audit to see if We did we did replace we reinstated the post The day after it was deleted because it shouldn't have been deleted, which Ben rightfully cop

to and admitted because it was in, it was not an accordance with the ethics and standards that we've kind of published a few months ago. Which is don't delete the content of a post. Unless they're very special circumstances such as it's like a hoax. That's being what are other circumstances? I think that is the only circumstance. Basically, yeah, it's like, unless like keeping the information in the post would be harmful in some way to the reader.

Right. And that, so that post did not merit. That's interesting. Yeah. Like, there's ghosts invading New York City, get out now while you can. Yeah. It turns out like, oh, that didn't happen. There weren't ghosts.

So you would delete the content of that post. Well, you might say, you might actually, I would actually prefer to like put an update at the top saying there are no ghosts in New York City. It turns out the reports of ghosts in Vady, New York City. It was just somebody watching Ghostbusters, they'd turn it on and they thought it was the news. So everything's fine.

Okay. My preference is basically to leave everything out. That's my preference too, actually. That's my preference too. And we've had, you know, there have been things recently, and frankly in the past, like when I was at the verge and prior to that, where you screw something up. And there is a natural instinct, I think, with people to, with journalists, I'm maybe not with journalists, but there's a natural instinct on the internet to take down something

that is wrong. Like basically, you're like, we got this wrong, we should pull it down. Or this is misleading because it's wrong. So why should it exist? Like people are just going to find it and then they're going to go like, this story is making sense. But what you learned very quickly, what I learned very quickly in there is that the best thing to do is to be as transparent as humanly possible and just go, get rid of the stuff

that is bad or doesn't matter or cross it out. Literally, we used to cross out text and stories and say, nope, that's not a thing. That's like a classic blogger. Right, and then you'd have an update that said update. We were totally wrong about that thing. Yeah, so for me, that's how I, because I also used to blog, that's how I used to, you know, you cross it out. But yeah, so, you know, my preference is to kind of leave.

So, yeah, so we did a re- we ended up doing a review, which we also... Who's involved in that? Like at Buzzfeed, if you have to do a review of internal reviews, are there a few Buzzfeed, like a Buzzfeed swatting that comes in? We are, we called in our... We called in our...

Cops, with like huge lulls and lulls. We called in our newsmanaging editor, Annie Rose Strasser, to do it. And it was great, because Annie Rose is new-ish. So for her, she was kind of like, she was seeing bus feet, kind of fresh eyes. And we brought in a team of, I want to say five kind of younger reporters, and they basically called up more than a hundred staffers just to find out what was going on. So this was like a news team driven effort.

Yeah. Like it was very really from the actual people who do the news. Yeah So anyhow you found there were so a couple of other delusions. I Guess the controversy is this I just want to be I kind of put this out there for people who are listening and aren't journalists and don't have not followed the story The controversy is Buzzfeed does a lot of stuff with brands and advertisers, where it's a very close relationship. Sometimes you guys have, I think, a studio that will create content or people who will basically write content for those advertisers. You work closely with advertisers. You do content that kind of is Buzzfeed content, but is also advertiser content, not news,

but stuff that's fun. Yeah, it's kind of the similar vein to entertainment and the inserts. Right. They might be a quiz about which Scooby Doo character the similar vein to entertainment and the answer. Right. They might be a quiz about which Scooby-Doo character are you brought to you by the new Scooby-Doo three. Yeah. It has not been made and but I would like to see it if they are going to make it. So I think the fear is, correct me if I'm wrong, that somehow this like advertiser sensitivity

rather, this advertiser sensitivity and relationship would bleed over into the real news the real news That you're doing In in in in form or Effect how you do the news right? For instance, if somebody were to write something critical about dove right and you took the story down because dove was a sponsor An advertiser you'd worked with them and had a relationship with them or a unit levers at the company that owns dove I think so. Yeah.

That somehow taints, would taint your ability to do news properly. Right. Yeah, I think that. The based on what I read and what I, and again, I didn't read everything. Yeah. I only have so many, so many hours in the day. That's not the case. I mean, you would not say that's the case.

No, it was not the case. It was an advertiser pressure. Right. I mean, because Dev was not an advertiser. Correct. I mean, you an 11 might have been an advert. No, it was not the case. It was an advertiser pressure. Right. I mean, because Devils not an advertiser. Correct. I mean, you deliver might have been an advertiser. No, you deliver. It was not an advertiser. No. I don't even know if those two businesses are related for the record. So anyhow, then there was a big thing and now everybody's forgotten about it, nobody talked anymore. It feels like everything on the internet, it's a huge deal for two days to 14 journalists. Right. And then it's over.

Right. But does that make it tough for you to do your job? I mean, does that kind of stuff make it? Does it? Does it? Oh, well, let's actually talk about that. That's good. So my producer has just made a point in my headphones that nobody who's listening to

this could hear, which is if it wasn't an ad, I'm sorry, if it wasn't pressure from advertisers, why was the post pulled? Which I guess, yeah, we didn't actually cover. Why was it pulled originally? Well, as I was not the person who made this decision to pull the post, there is something that we're trying to figure out right now is where we stand on personal opinion. And I think that was really the prompting issue. Right. It was an opinion piece essentially. Yeah. And the question is, do you guys do opinion pieces? Yeah. And we typically, we do what we have, we have this first person section, which is called ideas. And it's very much this happened to me. And it occasionally

veers into opinion, but not very often. I think that's actually an interesting problem. And we have, there's actually a kind of a line at Bloomberg where they have this thing called Bloomberg View, which is opinion and then they've been very staunchly sort of anti-opinion in the rest of the organization. I'm coming to this fresh, you know, to sort of see how it's laid out.

But there is, because when opinion looks like news, it is confusing to, because opinion isn't actually news, right? Like somebody's take on something. I mean, it can be newsy, but it can also be confusing to a reader who... Yeah, I mean, I see there's value in opinion. I mean, for example, you know, Adam Sirware, the national editor wrote a piece about why even though Baltimore has majority black leadership, it's still seeing some of the same issues that Ferguson, where blacks were completely shut out of government, the same issues that Ferguson had in terms of writing and people feeling dissatisfied and feeling disenfranchised.

It's not analysis, isn't that? But his perspective was that it doesn't matter how many black people you put into these power structures, if the power structures are the problem, which somebody could argue with his opinion. So we do go there sometimes. I mean, I think it's hard because Adam, for example, his opinion on that is informed by years and years of reporting. And so, you know, for Ben and I, we're both kind of old school,

kind of classic hard news people. And so there is a little bit of attention in discomfort with the opinion. But with that said, we're still figuring it out. I mean, there's plenty of... Today, before, like I was saying, I was reading the site, like sort of preparing. As you can see, I'm extremely well prepared. You are. Having totally understood the controversy from beginning to end. But I was just trying to, you know, because I think that Buzzfeed does some really awesome journalism, but I also feel I'm conflicted as a journalist who, I'm conflicted in two ways, actually.

One way I'm conflicted is Buzzfeed's doing this really hard, serious journalism that feels out of sync with the other stuff Buzzfeed does and I feel like... In what way is it out of sync? Well, it just feels like there's two different entities, you know, right? There's like Buzzfeed that's fun and viral and weird and you know, it's it's... It's the Buzzfeed, I think you think of as the original Buzzfeed. And then there's the news piece of it, which is very serious, very serious. And those two things just don't, they just don't go together.

I mean, I think from my perspective, so I've been a Buzzfeed for about two and a half years now. And, you know, I think it's a matter of time, then that's the thing that I keep coming back to now. People aren't used to this concoction. And maybe five years of delay. We've been doing the news thing for three years. Three and a half years.

That's it. BuzzFeed has existed for eight years. So in another 10 years, I mean, I will be done by then. But if we're not, we'll be goners. But if we're not, people will be like, yeah, that's just the news. No, I'll be dead by then, but if we're not, I will be goners. But if we're not, people will be like, yeah, that's just the news. No, I agree. Coming from the world of, like,

I just find it interesting that people have seemed really fixated on this, but maybe it's because I'm really deep in the weeds. Maybe. I think I'm fixated on it because it's like, getting two really different signals at the same time, and it's difficult to, I mean, it's confusing to me as a reader,

because I really like- Why are you actually confused by that? Well, I mean, I like the fun stuff, but like it doesn't feel like a good mix on the front page. Like I look at it and I'm like, this doesn't feel right to me. Like I look at the front page and I think, I wanna see this stuff as its own thing

and I wanna see this stuff as its own thing, but I don't wanna see them together because like the boob hacks and the news about Baltimore feel like on opposite ends of the emotion spectrum. And so like when there's things on opposite ends of the emotion spectrum, and frankly, that opposite ends of the information spectrum doesn't work sometimes.

And so I think that's the thing that I feel most is that, and maybe it's because I do look at the homepage. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think majority people don't have it, but see Buzzfeed content, see it traveling, kind of independently. Yeah, but even when it travels, it's because I do look at the homepage. Yeah, I mean, I've been a majority of people an old happy but see Buzzfeed content see it traveling, it kind of independently. Yeah, but even when it travels, it's like Buzzfeed breaks like a really serious story about sexual assault. And then Buzzfeed has like 10 like boob hacks or whatever it is.

It does feel like, you know, like, okay, you do a story about sexual assault and then you do the toy story, like penis story, which is that story. Yeah. Is there? And for, by the way, if you don't know this, they did an amazing, who did this? Who did the most? Christians Amora. Christians Amora.

Very talented. Which is, can you explain it actually? It's like, here's my explanation. It's like, it's a listicle. Can I say a listicle? It's a list. Let me call them lists. Sure. It's a list of things about encounters with penises, basically sexual, sexual encounters with penises, things that you do. I think the title is, think faces that any person who's had sex with a penis can recognize.

Yes. So it's about people who have sex with penises. And then all of the faces, all of the pictures are stills from Toy Story movies. Yes. Which is, you know, on so many levels is amazing. It's really well done. And also awful, but amazing. Anyhow, but the point is, like, you've got a story on, like, campus sexual assault,

then you've got, like, the, anybody who sets X to the penis, this is the face, you're in the make, whatever, it's a Toy Story. So I just think those are incongruous. I mean, do you disagree? I'm not forcing you. I guess that's a loaded way to say that, but does that not seem? Yeah, I can see why you... It's just interesting because I don't ever,

I mean, I don't get to talk to anybody. I mean, Katie and I don't really talk about it. Yeah. And I think about it, I mean, I don't think about that much because I don't think BuzzFeed is like, I need to be worried. I don't need to, I don't sit around and worry about the BuzzFeed is, has it any con-gru-ous homepage?

But if there's something that a lot... I just keep you up to the end. That's why I'm staying up so like, I just like, what? Can't think at the whole page. No, but it's something that's interesting and you work there and you actually are doing like, I think the work you're doing is really amazing. And a lot of it is like, wow, this is killer journalism and there are a great, great writers and editors and people like that.

Yeah, I mean, I guess I would worry more if it affected the work, the ability of our journalists to do the work that they're doing, but it hasn't. Well, unless you write that down post. No, I'm kidding. I said joke, sort of, but not really, but it is. No, I mean, that's like a fluke. Yeah. Right, it's not like an actual thing. No, I mean, but that's like a fluke. Yeah.

Right, it's not like an actual thing. No, it's not something that happened. So I mean, it's, it's that, but that's, I think that's, that's the fear. That's why people freak out about that. I think that's because it is, because you have those incongruous things and then you've got like some weird, and I think that's why people freak out.

But you know what, people freak out about everything. Because I shouldn't, people freak out about everything on the internet. I mean, literally, I tummy tweeted at me today. They thought the front page of Bloomberg was click baity. And I'm like, how did you feel about that? I was like, I don't know. There's like a story about Ben Bernacchi.

And like, I mean, I was like, your level of your, your, your idea about click bait must be really weird, you know. Anyhow, this is very sensitive moment. I've been told by the producer that I have to do an ad. Should we finish off this? I feel like I've been completely on the attack here and I've upset you. I'm not upset. And I didn't want to do that because I really respect you and your work. Thanks. And Buzzfeed. I mean, I guess the thing that I will say is that our reporters are able to pick up the phone and call people

and get information and get answers. And if they couldn't do that because of the incongruousness. Thank you, Granny. I'm an editor of our... Did you read all the time? Like, how do you spell this? How do you spell Ann? Of our website.

Then I would be more concerned. But they don't have a problem getting the stories and taking news. So. Do you think they'll ever just be two separate BuzzFeeds? Like they'll be like BuzzFeed for fun and BuzzFeed for serious hard hitters? I don't know, there's a good question.

Hard hitters. When you get Jonah in here, I'll have him answer that question. I feel like he would not answer that. I mean, he might answer it. OK, now I have to do an hat. And you're not going to participate in this. No. Because that would be wrong.

Yes. So, as you probably know, because you know me from the internet, I am on the internet. But I'm not good at making things on the internet. This is an actual fact. I can't, like, don't put me anywhere near HTML because I won't know what to do with it. But there's this thing called Squarespace, which solves the problem for many people like myself who suffer from a deficiency in understanding how to make websites. Squarespace allows you to make a website without having to know anything about website building. It's simple, it's powerful, it's beautiful.

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presence in minutes. It's like, I don't know what the scenario is with that one, but I think it's handy. It's like, you're at it. You're at a dinner party and you say to somebody, you should check out my website, but you just made it up on the spot. You don't actually have a website. And then you just dash home and you just do a cover page, and there it is. So you don't look like a huge liar. And it's great for photography, sites, and portfolios. You can start a trial with no credit card required and start building your website today. When you decide to sign up for Squarespace, make sure to use the offer code Joshua to get 10% off your first purchase and to show your support for our podcast. Well, it's my podcast. I mean, Magnus is involved, but I guess it's our, I'll say our podcast. Is that okay? Thanks,

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It's a no-risk trial and there's a $110 bonus that includes a digital scale and up to $55 of free postage. So go to stamps.com and click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in Joshua. That's stamps.com and enter Joshua. Okay, we're back with Shiny Hilton. Hilton. That's my accent. I think that's my Pittsburgh accent, which what does it say, Hilton?

What is a Pittsburgh accent? It's like a, it's like a Yinser accent. You don't know about the Pittsburgh accent. No, I'm from California. Well, that doesn't mean you can't know about the Pittsburgh accent. No, I'm from California. Well, that doesn't mean you can't know about the Pittsburgh accent. I think that specifically means I can't know. I know about the California accent and I'm from Pittsburgh. Well.

So how do you explain that? Let's think about that. No, let's not. Thank you about it. The Pittsburgh accent is just a very not good sounding accent. And I don't think I have a lot of it, but every once in a while like on certain words like color How do they say it? You said it fine. No, I didn't color. I said like KELR

I just said color not color, which is how people I think how people normally say it Let's talk Don't well, that's the thing is the Pittsburgh accent Magnus just asked me how you say downtown the Pittsburgh accent you say downtown's like Don Ton Don Ton Ton. That's actually what it sounds like right get out of here. That's the way it sounds Please do not use any of this in the podcast. I just want to have a nice conversation So you just moved to Cobble Hill. I did tell me about your new apartment. Is it what kind of apartment? Is it describe it? Is it in one bedroom? Is it a studio? It's like a fake one bedroom. What is it? Fake one? Well, there's there's like a French arch between the bedroom and the rest of the apartment. Oh, okay. I say, but there's not a door.

There's no door. You got to put a door there. I could put a door or maybe a curtain, but that's the thing. You know, you should put his like the beads. I was thinking about the beads. Nobody has beads. I don't even know where you'd get those beads anymore. But I kind of like that it's open. So I don't know. I'm sorry. You know what I'm sorry. You don't want to be talking about your part on this. So here's what I want to talk about. So on my way, before I came into this podcast, I asked my dear friend Katie to topple us. My sister and what I should, you know, talk to talk to you about and she said, What I should, you know, talk to you about and she said, did you know the Josh didn't get into journalism until he was like 30 years old?

And I said, yeah, my been a little bit younger, but finally, point taking. And I said, yeah, I knew that he had like some previous life in music, making music. And she said, yeah, he had like some previous life in music, making music. And she said, yeah, he had like a number one hit in the UK. That rumors get started. It's not a number one hit. It was in the top 40.

It was 29. So you had a number one hit in the UK called Pistol Whip. And I pulled it up on my iPhone. And it was pretty good. So it's at nine minutes long. It's nine minutes and 32 seconds, actually. And I listened to it on my way here, and I feel very amped.

That's why I came in Guns Blazing. It's a song I wrote in 1997, I think, is released in 98. It's a trance song with an epic breakdown and build up in the middle of it. Yeah, it was pretty epic. And it sounds ridiculous now because trance music, I mean no music sounds like that, but like. It's funny. That's when people started saying EDM all the time. Yeah. That's what I thought, like pistol whip, that's what I thought they were talking about. Right. Well, that's what it used to be. Right.

But it's not. EDM stands for electronic dance music yeah right yeah less you confuse with other types of dance music Is there any not electronic dance music? No, I don't think so. What would that be? swing I don't understand. I mean I like Waltz's yeah, no, I'm saying I was listening to Bach today really? I'm really into the cello really like just as an instrument. Yeah, it's I'm saying I was listening to Bach today really I'm really into the cello really Mm-hmm like just as an instrument. Yeah, it's just got a good sound I put on the radio the other day and I heard the most beautiful piece of music. It was a fug

Oh Mozart Mozart maybe I don't know I have a I have a collection of fugues. Yeah, you that sound really Funereal performed by whom I I have a collection of fugues. Do you? That sound really funerial. Performed by whom? I can't remember. Is it the Los Angeles orchestra? No. Oh, okay.

Maybe we'd know some fugues. Have the same fugues. Yeah. Fugues are intense. They are intense, but they make you feel things. Yeah, no, exactly. I actually, it'd be cool. I was thinking when I was driving, I was like, maybe I'll be a guy who gets into classical music. And then I thought about what that would be like. Yeah, no exactly. I actually it'd be cool. I was thinking when I was driving I was like maybe I'll be a guy who gets into classical music and then I thought about what that would be like.

Yeah, it's not cool. It's not a cool thing to be into. I was feeling that way. So yesterday I was listening to some classical because I was editing and I was looking for a really good version of Bolero by Rovelle. I think that's how you pronounce it. You know it's had song that's like 16 minutes long and it builds up and then don't do what I'm not gonna say. Oh you're not saying you're saying Bolero? I'm not. Please do. Because then I sound ridiculous. We'll just put a little bit of Bolero in here Magnus because I think it's public domain. We'll just slide a bit of Bolero. He should. And so, they're like not good versions of it because some are like too light and some are like too fast.

So did you find one? And I had to listen like four versions to find the one that I liked and it wasn't really the one that I liked but it was close. But do you have the one you like on your phone or something? The one that I like, yeah, I have on like Google Play music or something. Google Play music. Do you remember that? Yeah, I remember it.

What kind of phone do you use? I use an iPod, iPhone. But you use Google Play music. I don't really use it. It's just that I once uploaded all of my music to Google Play and then my computer died. I did the same thing. I have my stuff everywhere. My stuff is like good in Google Play. I have it. It's iTunes match. I've got like pictures spread like strewn throughout the internet. I mean when I die it's gonna be a mess. Yeah. So you're gonna be like all

this stuff is we got to go get all this. I, I don't know who this is like a team of it. Sounds like a team of archivists. Mm-hmm. That's why I imagine what happened. They're like, we've got to get all the stuff for the museum. That'll be the new service. I'm going to ask you some random questions now. Okay. Okay. What is your favorite color? My favorite color to look at is orange. My favorite color. My favorite color to look at is orange. My favorite color. What else would you do with the color? My favorite color to wear is yellow. But you also look at that.

It's on the same. You're not wearing any yellow right now. I'm in New York to not have to wear black all the time. It's going on. I just feel weird. When I'm walking around and I have any kind of color on whatsoever, and I just see everybody else, and they look very sophisticated, and they're all wearing black.

I feel stupid. I've started wearing a lot of black, because I feel like I'm not supposed to wear colors, but. I'm trying to wear, I want to wear an outfit, not like a Steve Jobs thing, where I wear the same thing all the time, but I have a basic idea of what I want to wear all the time, and I'm trying to do that now.

What, like a uniform? Kind of like uniform. Okay. Because I'm tired of making that now. What, like a uniform? Kind of like a uniform. Okay. Because I'm tired of making decisions about clothing. Right. So is it like, is it a pattern or is it a type? Well, it's a type, I think I have to ease into it. Basically it's this, it's a pair of jeans.

It's a pair of white sneakers. It is a shirt, probably an Oxford, probably untucked, but could be tucked in. I think at this point of varying shades of gray or solid, some other solid colors maybe, I'm not really sure yet. I have quite a few of those. Blue, various blue. You're describing a capsule wardrobe.

Hold on a second. And then a, and then a overcoat of a, a, a gray overcoat. What kind of gray? Well, I could, it could vary. Like, for instance, I, today I was wearing because it was a little bit chilling in the morning. I'm wearing a, like a Heather, dark Heather gray, wool overcoat with the collar turned up because that's a cool way to wear overcoats. I think if the collar is down, you're just basically a huge loser. And I would not want to be caught with anybody thinking I'm a loser. So anyhow, with the color turned up, I would like a lighter overcoat for the spring time.

I don't have one. I've been looking for one. And that's it. That's the whole. Like a top coat. Top coat, yeah. And that's the whole thing. Yeah.

So that's it. So you want to eliminate choice from your life? I want to eliminate choice because I don't need to make choices about my clothing anymore because I just need to not be a thing that I spend time thinking about. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm working towards that. That's fair. I'm similarly working toward that but I have trouble being limited by...

What would your uniform be? What would your capsule wardrobe be? Well, here's the thing. I dabbled in the capsule wardrobe concept. What you did. I did. It's the thing where you have like 27 or 33 or 37 items of clothing. And that's all you are allowed to wear and keep in your closet.

That seems like a lot. Well, some people do it including like undergarments and jewelry. And some people just, do you include undergarments in jewelry? No, that seemed too restrictive. But then I started making a list of like the 37 items. And I was like, this isn't enough because I'm a working woman and I don't have time to do laundry all the time.

Yeah. But you get a duplicate. Well, no. Oh, you only have one. Oh, but that's like duplicate. Well, no. Oh, you don't really have one. Oh, but that's like, this is like an eco thing. Now you're talking about the green. Well, it started feeling like it was like compulsive. Yeah, I don't think that's ridiculous.

I think 37 types make sense. Yeah, no, this is like 30, like you have one graphic t-shirt and one white silk blouse and one pair of jeans. See, that to me is, that to me is, I get it, like then you mix and match them. And you're like, oh, I'll wear this top with this. And then, but that to me is too much. That, the problem is the mixing and matching.

The problem is like, what do I, what do I pair this thing with? And then you've got 37, well, I mean, how many out of 37, how many combinations would that be? I don't know, I'm not a mathematician. No, it's a ton of combinations. Well, so I went, here's the thing, I went to Paris. I went to France for vacation.

Wonderful, wonderful town. Wonderful town. And I- Your birthday, which is March 9th. Yes, stalker. He's like, you just said it before. I'm not stalking you. You literally said it a half an hour ago.

I did. Anyhow. And I brought a one carry on bag for a three week trip. That's crazy and insane. It was really challenging. It was like my attempt to do your capsules. Why? Why of all the times and places to when you were going to Paris for how many weeks? Well, I went to London to work for a week and then Paris for a week and then it's out of the France. You have offices in London? We do. Are they cool um the office that we were in is not cool it was like a We're not in that office anymore. I don't really want to talk about it. It was like a conference room

That were like seven people stay. I wasn't trying to you know, I was trying to further um It's really it's really it was just really traumatizing. We have a really cool London office Which I've been here for the first time and it's like an insane, you know Three buildings put together like completely out outrageous scale. We don't have that. No, I know, but I'm just saying. Well, I mean, you know, I'm impressed by it as well. Did you find in London that people make tea for each other all the time?

It's not. It's just tea non-stop. Like, just everybody's getting everybody else tea. Like, people get up and they're like, does anybody want tea? And then they go and four orders come in. And then they go and they not only bring back tea, but they bring back different, like not types, but like no milk for you, no sugar for you.

You know what I did notice actually, now that you mentioned it. What? People were offering to get me hot beverages. Yes. Like more like nobody ever, the only person who offers to get me a hot beverage is my assistant. Nobody else offers to get me a hot beverage, but in London.

That's all they do. People who I was just working with were like, I'm going to get a hot beverage. I'll be like, a reporter would leave the room and be like, do you want tea? And so for the first three days, I was like, I'm not getting anybody's tea that's buying into the patriarchy. I'm not bringing my tea. Wow. And then I, that's really, that's what it's like for the patriarchy. I'm not bringing mentee. Wow. And that's really?

That's what it's like for a woman now. It's hard. You can't just bring somebody to you because you've become part of the problem. It's true. It's just like being black and eating watermelon from white people, it's a trap. So here's a thing.

That does seem like a problem though. I mean, it's like, I bet it creates such a feeling of tension for everybody, right? Yeah, it's like mentally taxing. We can tell though. I mean, it's like, I bet it creates such a feeling of tension for everybody, right? Yeah, it's like mentally taxing. Let me tell you. I get it. So when I went by the third day, I was like, okay, the men also go get to you.

So I will be kicked. The world is so confusing. It's so hard. It's like unfair. I mean, it's unfair for everybody. Like, nobody should think about anything about that. Nobody should have any notion except watermelon's delicious. Why wouldn't you eat it?

Well, I don't like watermelon. No, it's the issue. But. Okay, but I'm just saying most people think watermelon's delicious, but it's such an insane thing that we have this horrible problem, man. Like, you can't even, you like it, you can't enjoy it.

It's true. No one can, no one will be happy. No. I really like, please stop eating that because we're uncomfortable, you're uncomfortable. Yeah. It sucks. It sucks. It's amazing how racism is like really plagued us. We gotta do something we have to do something about racism Actually, I want to talk about this really quickly. I know we're going over. I know we're way over But I want to have this like one of the things that I think is really impressive and I think is

It's BuzzFeed has an amazing like really diverse staff like and and it's not bad. It's not stupid I mean, but it's like, honestly, I think it's a very comparatively, and I'll speak personally, like, I'll just say at Bloomberg, I would like a more diverse, I mean, I just got there, so I can't take responsibility for everybody who works at, I mean, there aren't like 25,000 people at Bloomberg, so I just wanna say I cannot take any responsibility for you.

But it is, you know, because we are trying, it is like you, somebody who's sitting down and you go, like, well, you know what, Jesus, there's a lot of white people in this newsroom, you know. I've felt that way in almost every newsroom. Yeah, well, that's because that's because a lot of white people in newsrooms, you know, and it was, and, and it's something that like every day is like, how do we change this? Like, how do we make this better?

Because it's not, because actually in news, the more different opinions and ideas and like backgrounds and sensibilities you have, the better off you are. I mean, I found that in every turn, and I try to sort of have our group, I try to be really open and just like everybody's talking and everybody's ideas are important and everybody should be listened to. And so like in that situation, it's always like, oh, you thought of this in a way that I never would have thought of it. And that's great. But if you only have people from basically one background or two backgrounds, it's not that, I mean, you're limited, right? So there are many great business reasons why you'd want to diverse newsroom.

But also, it just is lame, I think. It's just like, you basically look like a bunch of racists. You're like, well, yeah, I don't know. Only white people applied for these jobs. Anyhow, but you guys, I don't think you have that problem Or at least you're you're moving away from that problem. Yeah, it's yeah, I don't know like actually how do you I mean how do you and what what would you say to people who are having trouble building Well building diverse newsrooms. I I've been any any rooms That's I mean, I think it's so I've written about this in the past and I think the thing that people need to

understand is it's not hard to diversify but it does take work which like those two things are really vague I know I know and I've outlined this in a very thoughtful medium post. It's a call. It's called building a diverse newsroom. No, come on. I'll just read it fine. I'll just read that.

No, I just mean that there are the issues of networks and people just thinking not only about their own networks and expanding kind of the search, but also thinking about, for me, a pipeline is a big issue. So if you're hiring a particular position, then you know like the candidates for this, the pool for this is gonna be very white and very male. Okay, fine, we know that.

That's like everything. Right, like say you're hiring a, you know, a tack reporter, whatever, although actually the tack reporters are very female these days, we've got a good number of them. But you know say you're you're you're hiring and you know that this position is most likely the majority of the candidates are white and male. Then you start thinking about ways in which you can kind of open up the pipeline in other places

and for us that means we have a fellowship program, we have fellowship in news, we have a fellowship what we call buzz. And we think about ways to bring in really junior people and give them the, at least the opportunity to build that experience. Right. That was something we did. I mean, they continue to do it at Vox and the Verge. Yeah.

And, you know, I think it's, I mean, I think we're gonna be doing some of that at Bloomberg. It's just, I mean, it's tough. I mean, it's actually tough to develop talent, it's tough to get talent that exists, it's tough to develop talent. I actually think rigorous training is should be like a part of any newsroom

that people don't come in knowing everything. And in fact, a lot of people come in knowing nothing. And it's really easy. Like to me, doing news in many ways is kind of a math problem. There's certain questions you have to ask in a certain sequence. In certain ways, you have to structure a story. And once you figure out some of those and you understand the systems, it becomes really easy, not easy to do news.

But with people with the right instincts and who can write, it's not magic. It's actually like, what's simple. I mean, I think the other thing is young talent is a big part of it because, you know, at the kind of top tier, there's just a small number of journalists who are kind of bouncing around publications. And then when you look at people of color or women, that's even smaller pool.

And I think instead of trying to go for the like, one big black name, you know, or whatever the case may be or female or Asian. Um, I want to know. You got to get that one black person. Like the one like everybody can't hire ton of hairstyles as what I'm saying. Uh, so like that was too I was gonna get. So instead maybe you should like hire you like hired somebody young.

I don't know. Um, but instead people are often giving shots to people who look like them. So, right. So think about who you're giving a chance to. What is a song that changed your life? A song that changed my life. Something you heard and you're like, my life will never be the same after this. Does that exist? Maybe not everybody has that? No, I think, I think the song that that changed my life that it was would probably be um, places in my past by James Taylor. I don't know that song. Well, I don't know any, I only know I know I know I know James Taylor. No James Taylor. I know a lot of James Taylor. I love James Taylor. You do? I do. I'm not a fan.

But you don't know any James Taylor. I've heard what I've heard I don't think I'm into. What's no pistol? You know, I wasn't saying that he's not as good as Joshua Ryan. The artist that created the top 40 you can say. The number one, the number one UK hit single pistol whip. We can't all be, we can't all be the guy who made pistol whip. You know James Taylor has done some stuff. I'm sure that's pretty good. I don't know.

It's just it's I'm what is it called places in my past. Sounds like a downer. It's not it's see James Taylor's secret is his song sound like downers, but they are actually like huge uppers. They're actually upbeat. They're like actually songs about like affirmation of life. I don't know. What is your favorite movie of all time? I don't have a favorite movie. I don't like movies.

What? They're too long. What? They're so short. They're too long. They're short by comparison to what we enjoy as popular media now. No. Unless you're thinking of YouTube,

in which case, is much, much shorter. I think the perfect length. You don't have a favorite movie. I, here's what happens when I go to the movies. That's very weird. Here's what happens when I go to the movies. That's extremely straight. At about 42 minutes in, I keep what,

I start to wonder if there's more. There can't be more plot. Like there can't be more. This is it, right? There's like, there's like, not more left. Is there, that's, I, and maybe that's just because I watch a lot of Grey's Anatomy. Oh, that's right.

You're into Grey's Anatomy. I like, I think 42 minutes is the perfect length for a televised. We're way over 42 minutes, I'm so sorry. Thank you to perfectly. Yeah, sorry. I so you don't like movies, but you do like Grey's Anatomy and you also like James Taylor.

It's a very, it's a very strange picture of your pained and cello Yeah, I don't know if you heard about this. I don't want it. I don't want to do a spoiler But spoiler alert for those listening who are Grey's Anatomy fans the character of big dreamy recently died on the show He did yeah, were you a phantom dreamy? You know, I was discussing this with another friend of mine who's a big fan or was a big fan of Graz and watched it just to see McDreamy die because she hasn't watched it in a long time and she's always wanted. She's just wanted to see it die. She couldn't believe it so she had to watch it just to make that it was true. I am a big fan of McDreamy through the eyes of Meredith. I don't know who that is. That's her, his wife.

Oh, it was great. Meredith Gray of Grey is an Adam. Oh, she's the Gray. She's the Gray. It's the Gray was a person. The Gray is Meredith Gray. And so I mean, I know the Gray is a person, but now. So for her, for so for me, I've always enjoyed getting to her anatomy on the show.

I mean, so for me. But I'll. Yeah, so for me, a real actually rim shot in there in post. So for me, it was like watching her romance with him over the last 11 years, right, was mostly interesting from watching through her perspective. All right. Well, I think we need to wrap it up, because this has been the strangest, my father's strangest podcast I've ever done. I'm sorry. No, but I feel,

Magnus, who's very talkative today, more so than he's ever been on any other podcast that we've done, which is only three others. So I don't know, maybe we're just getting seen in a new phase. He asked about you were in a sorority, we were talking about this before. Alpha Kappa Alpha, which is the first Greek letter sorority established and incorporated

by African American college women. Yes. That's what I'm just reading this off of your LinkedIn information. And you said black sororities are better than white sororities. Can you expand on that? I'm sure it's true, but I'd like to know why. You know, the the affection that I have for Black sororities is that they are like lifelong affiliations.

So it's to me it's great. So you know, you go on Facebook and you see your sorority sisters, you call them your sororors. And you see like soror, that's Greek. I think. And you see like a woman who's been a member of the sorority for 50 years. Yeah.

And she's like doing a ceremony and they're celebrating her, you know, her membership and she's been doing community service. Is that true of all sororities? No. I don't think really. Most sororities outside of the Black Greek letter system don't do like life long chapters like you're in a chapter. You're a entire adult life generally.

Are you still active with your sororities? I'm not active because I work too much. But you would be active. But it's the thing that I live in. The job wasn't your entire life. Yeah. And I'm sure after this I'm gonna get an email from some sororities. I'm gonna be like, I don't listen. I'm gonna go to email from some sororities. I really like, I, listen, I'm gonna ask you. I'm gonna go ahead. You don't have a large black Greek female at red exposure. I'm gonna guess like, I'm going to guess like, first off, I mean, at this moment,

I don't know that there's a large female listener of the podcast. I think black females would be an even smaller percentage. Uh huh. And those who have been at a sorority are probably like, it's a very, I mean, honestly, if you're a black woman who's been at a soror who have been in a sorority are probably like, it's a very, I mean, honestly, if you're a black woman who's been in this sorority or is in a sorority and lists this podcast, please contact me because I just want to find out what's going to

have with you. Like, I want to know like how you ended up listening to this. Yeah. And that would be an interesting story, I'm sure. I think it'd be great. I don't know, but now, but now that you've been on and you're a member of Alpha Cap Alpha, who knows what's going to happen. It's a whole new world. It's a whole new world. Huge new listenership. And I think that's a great place to leave it. Magnus, did you get the answers you wanted to know about Black sororities? Are you happy now Magnus? Yeah, you have. You've been interviewing behind the scenes. It's true. He's been... Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh I'm a big fan of you in your business. Thank you. I have a part you know a familial Obviously investment in the business. I want things. I want things to go well

That's do I and I think they're going pretty well. Josh. This has been great. You know, come on I love talking to you. I you're being sarcastic now. No, I think you are not a dog I love talking to you. I wish we did it more often Maybe you'll be a regular on the podcast No, it's either you. Get you in here with Katie. Yeah. Or some other people, maybe some sorority sisters. Maybe Katie and I can interview some of my sorority sisters.

That should just be one episode where I don't appear at all. It's you and Katie. And Magnus. Yeah, Magnus will be there and you guys interviewing your sorority sisters. Anyhow, thank you. Thank you for joining me. And that's tomorrow for this week.

I'll be back next week. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best, despite the hardships that await you down the road. ... ... ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿� Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,