Tomorrow - Episode 42: Decoding Kanye with Christopher Grant

Episode Date: February 29, 2016

Kanye West loves the Turbo Grafx 16 — he loves it so much that he says the name of his next record is "Turbo Grafx 16." Josh also loves the TG16. Does that mean Kanye and Josh should be friends? The host enlists supergenius talent (and Polygon editor-in-chief) Christopher Grant to help decode that mystery and many, many more. The future of VR, Firewatch, and the battle for console supremacy, are just a few of the other thrilling topics tackled. Miss this, and you're missing a ride on an ultralight beam. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow on your host, Joshua Tupulski. Today on the podcast, we discuss getting into heaven, choosing losers, and deciding whether or not to jump off a cliff. But first, here's a work from our sponsor. Listen, I know you're wearing things under your clothes right now, but wouldn't you prefer that those things were better than what you've currently got on? That's where Mac Weldon comes in. It's better than whatever you're wearing. They believe in smart design, premium fabrics and simple shopping. I mean, it's incredibly easy to just go on the website.

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So go right now to MacWeldon.com and get 20% off using the promo code tomorrow. Don't be a fool. Mac Weldon wants to get on your body. Let it happen. My guest today is a great friend, an old friend, a smart dude, good-looking, great sense of style, very tall, has a wonderful predilection for trucks, and these pickups, and he's the founder and chief of Polygon.com. My guest today is Chris Grant. Christopher Grant. Which do you prefer? Do you have a preference? You know, I do Christopher because it makes me sound smarter. Christopher Grant. Christopher Grant. Yeah. Which do you prefer? Do you have a preference? You know, I do Christopher because it makes me sound smarter.

Christopher Grant. Oh, let's go by Chris. Yeah, that's fine. Chris Grant is a real American, all American name. That's like a guy from the 1948 who would punch you in the face if you said something negative about America. Do you want to hear a true story? I belong to a Facebook group that's called,

I think it's called my name's Chris Grant and your ex-izent. I think you might have told me this last time you were. Yeah, that's the best, because it's the most you all came on earth. It's all Chris Grant's. Yeah, it's all Chris Grant's. You can't give it to me. Is there a John Smith group as well?

Do you think? I'm sure there is. I think it's a lot more interesting if there's like a Josh Topolsky group. Because there is, there is no, I can tell you this now. So I get alerts on Topolsky, of course, because I want to know, it's not the many Topol skis in the world. There's a handful, most of them I'm related to.

There's more than you would think, actually. Laura's, Laura's maiden name, which is a really horrible term now that I said it out loud. Her maiden name, before, which she was a maiden before I defiled her is Dizubin Dziubian and this is Laura June of course the famed critic art critic. And she my also my wife, she made me realize how much more common Topolski was, because her name is extremely rare. Huh. So I was like, oh, I'm like, there's barely any, there's no Topolsky's. And she's like, actually, she's also really into like, ancestry and stuff.

So she knows all of the details of this. So you're there going like, actually, there's no, and she's like, well, actually, very rare, we're rare in a rarefied space, the Topolsky's. And she's like, actually, you're not really, and then it's like, proceeds to show me like all these people in Eastern Europe that have the name and like in Milwaukee. But most of them, most of them, there aren't that many and I'm related to most of them. But why did it take me about this? Oh, there are, I get a Google alerts and I do, I know who all the Polskies are who are

active. Anyone who's question, there's a, there was a guy named Chris Grant basketball coach. Yeah. Some of these basketball fans, I know who I'm talking about. I guess he did a bad job. We have a guy named Chris Grant basketball coach. Yeah, some of these basketball fans. I know who I'm talking about. I guess he did a bad job. We have a lot of basketball fans listening. And yeah, probably lots of basketball fans. What's a basketball nation?

Big B ball big B ball fans. Uh, tomorrow, every time that Chris Grant made a bad decision in basketball, like when he told this guy's not to dunk and they should have dunked or something. Yeah. Um, whenever that happened, I would immediately get a bunch of tweets like late at night, whenever the game's on, I'd open up Twitter and just like, oh, crap, I got a turn.

What is your Twitter handle? It's just at Chris Grant. Right. So like whenever a Chris Grant, people think Twitter is like, how do you think Will Smith feels? I know, I know, I know. Like I, I want to just go look at his ads one day and look how fun they are.

But people think Twitter is like, if you pick up the phone, like, and you have to call, I don't know, Macy's, it's like 1,800 Macy's. Like, everyone just has their name. And if you just type it into Twitter, it will automatically connect with the right person. Right. It's like, it costs as a customer service for that person. Right. There was a guy who kicked a dog in Brooklyn in an elevator and there was video of it and

it was all over the news. His name is Chris Grant. It's like I'm immediately starting getting at least tweets about how I'm a horrible person and kill yourself and I mean it's like, you didn't even bother to check the profile. And of all people, you are now a great dog lover. Love doggies. You had, can we talk about, you've had a personal, something personal happen. Related dogs. Yeah, my dog. My doggy died. I love doggies. You had, can we talk about, you've had a personal, something personal happen.

Related dogs. My doggy died. I did not know about this until you, I think you posted about it on Facebook. We'll get very sombre on the tomorrow podcast just now. Your beautiful dog. You tell us about Yuki. Tell us about Yuki.

Yuki actually was a model dog. She was like, you would not believe it. For a calendar. Yeah, she actually wasn you would not believe it. She posed for a calendar. Yeah, she actually wasn't a cute overload calendar. That's true. Yeah. She was beautiful. We got her from a pound from shelter.

She was a part Pyrenees part, we ended up getting a DNA test because we got the question so much. We were like, all right, let's just answer it. She was part Pyrenees part husky. Wow. She's just amazing dog. She was like the smartest dog ever.

Super sweet. She was bad for about a week when we first got her. She ate like the smartest dog ever. Super sweet. She was bad for about a week when we first got her. She ate a Tivo remote and some headphones. And I think that was more of a statement then. Yeah. And she was like, look, long-term doing the right thing. This is not a thing that's going to be around for a while.

So, but then ever, like literally for a week bad. And then she never did another bad thing in her life. I have the amazing animal. I have the opposite animal. I have an opposite dog. And you have. And he was good for the first week. It's never been good ever. She's like, she's like, I'm great.

No, I mean, she really did. Honestly, by the way, condolences and I'm sorry that she died because it's very sad. I know you loved her very much. You would talk about her constantly. I would say too much, but now's not the time to give you shit for talking about your dog. Let's see a picture of Yuki just tweet me at Chris Krabby. Maybe we'll put one in the, when I put this up on Facebook. We'll do a photo gallery. But no, Penny is the opposite. She is still live first off, so also opposite in that in that regard. But sorry.

She is still alive first off, so also opposite in that regard. But, sorry. But, she's like, though, she was like really chill when we first got her. Like, when we went to buy her, she was like sleepy and she was like, you know, we had another dog named Sal, I've told this story before, I'm sure. Another dog named Sal who is very the most chill dog in the world, he would like, if you were like, he was laying at the foot of the bed and you needed to move, you could like literally just like slide him over with your feet and he wouldn't care. You know, just totally chill.

And she seemed really chill and we're like, oh great, we're getting these two chill dogs, we'll just hang out together, they'll be so good for each other. And then a week, first she got to our house, she was obviously very timid and whatever. And then within a week was completely the alpha in the house, I think to everybody, except for Laura,

but to everybody else, me and Sour completely subjugated by her. Like, Sour would go to eat his food and she would rush over towards him and like, stand in between the food and growl it. It was insane. Right? And she's been doing that ever since. She still does it, basically.

Sour's dead. She killed Sour, basically, as far as I'm concerned. No, I think she like ran him into the ground. I think that's what happened. Sour gave up. Yeah, I kind of feel like, I don't know. I'm concerned. No, I think she ran him into the ground. I think that's what happened. Sal gave up. Yeah, I kind of feel like, I don't know. I mean, he had a heart thing, but I feel like she exacerbated it somehow.

Anyhow, let's move on to happier topics. So look, so you run Polygon obviously. You're main focus. Now, you're not your only focus, but your main focus. In fact, I'm gonna pull up Polygon while we're talking. I haven't looked into it today. Let me see what's happening on the front page.

I remember back in the old days, when I was at Vox, we launched Polygon as an exciting time. I actually talk about it all the time to people because I thought it was a really, that we did some really smart things. And to this day, I love Polygon. I think it's the best video game website on the internet.

Oh man, look at this HTC Vive pre-orders are officially open. Oh god, I gotta get one. It's so good. If you use it, yeah, let me just go ahead and pause the podcast right now. Are you are you or pre-ordering? I got a pre-order. Shit, I should pre-order too. Okay, this is not a nice thing.

Can we both just ask HTC to send us a demo just to check it out? I mean, I they sent it for the tonight show, but I don't know if they'll send me one, you know. Tell them back on the internet and full force. I don't know if they're gonna. I don't know either. I mean, we're gonna get one from the Hollywood. I don't know, I don't know.

I do, I do. I'm gonna do it right now. I'm doing it right now. I'm opening the page, I'm not gonna do it. I'm just gonna remind myself. Anyhow, the HCC Vive, it's on the front page of Paul Gond right now. But so anyhow, so you're the editor-in-chief of this wonderful, beautiful, lovely video game destination.

And like games, we've talked about games many times, obviously. I've been talking a lot about games because I've had a lot of free time. I've had a little downtime as I've been working on some stuff. And so I've been playing more, not as much as I'd like to but playing more So I just finished fire watch. Oh, I have not finished fire watch. Have you notes like four hours? Have you played it? Yes, I'm like you're familiar with it. Yep. What are your thoughts? I'm curious because this is like a varied by the way like I was The person who told me about it was John Groot

We actually told me about it when we were doing our last podcast together and And I had never heard of it like Like, maybe I wasn't really paying attention. Can I repollue on more? I know I do, I do believe me. I do have to read it more. But give me your thoughts, because I have a lot of thoughts on it. I won't spoil anything for you.

So the pejorative term would be walking simulator and games like Firewatch, like games like on home are really interested in environmental storytelling, putting you in these kind of unique places where you the player are actually experiencing something for the first time, often alongside the character. That's not necessarily a tourism, but certainly with Firewatch and on home. There's a analogy, and the games are really focused not on technology, not on action, not necessarily even on mechanics,

but more on narrative, more on storytelling. They're really focused on like delivering something that you participate in. And so for a lot of people that fails to meet some criteria for a game. Right. Well, I mean, it is, it is, I mean, it's interesting that the point about mechanics, because in Firewatch, I do mechanics are actually one of my gripes.

It's like, I feel like the game, now look, if you haven't played Firewatch, I highly recommend going to get, how much is it, 20 bucks? I think it's 20 bucks. Yeah. 20 bucks, I think you can get like a discount there's some places that are discounted it but it's available on steam you can get in the ps4 i think it's on the mac app store. If i'm not mistaken i can be wrong and any rate uh. It's a really good enjoyable fascinating game it's not as good as gone home. And I will say that the similarities of you are walking through a story are extremely, they do echo each other in many ways, but it's completely different environment,

completely different feel. But the mechanics of Firewatch are kind of like what, not just the mechanics, but the whole world of of what you can and can't do, where you can and can't go. Like you're in an environment where you're on, there's cliffs, you can't walk off a cliff. You can't walk into the woods, you can't walk into the woods. It's like very, you're very much like,

it's not on rails, but it's certainly, there's no fail state. You can't, like I can't be, you won't even, you won't even, you won't even like get close to a cliff and say, what are you doing? You know? Like, let me do it three times,

then let me throw myself off in the games over. Basically, you know, if that's what, I feel like it's like, it wants you to have a sense of agency in the character, but then it doesn't actually, you don't have all the things in the environment that give you a sense of agency. I think it very much is okay removing agency, though, right? Like, it's very much okay.

If they wanted to have more agency, they would have made, you know, like many other games that are blowing up a steam sales chart. They would have made this huge Wyoming forest that you're in. They would have made an open world and they would have made it a survival game and they would have taken out all the narrative and just let you run out of it. There's a happy medium. Like I think if you look at the Far Cry games, at least the three and four. But the Far Cry games are really focused on mechanics, not narrative. I agree, but there's no reason why you couldn't do what Firewatch does in narrative. I actually think Far Cry 3 does some really great narrative stuff as far as action movies

go. Yeah, I think you think it isn't action movie. I think like that's what Firewatch isn't. No, but I know that, but I'm saying what frustrates me is that it could be both things. It could make you, it could give you that I'm not saying it needs to be fully open world. But it just feels so scripted that it never feels like you actually have an opportunity to, you never feel like you have a choice. I think that you can change the story or that like,

not that you have to completely alter it, but you know, there are, it doesn't feel like there are tributaries off of the river. Yeah, I think that's true. At least, you know, I said, I am finished yet. I'm only maybe halfway through. But I think that is true. I mean, certainly it's true for gone home, right? There's no fail state.

Right. You don't, you know, but gone home is much, gone home feels much smaller. And maybe this does that in retrospect, because like you said, it's only a four hour game or something. I think lengthwise, they're about the same. I think what Firewatch has done, which maybe has confused people, is that it does feel like an open world.

It feels like with the technology they created and the world they created, with a different design, this would be an open world survival game, right? Like, basically. Well, I mean, why is it black or white that open world survival game and to like

Simulator, I'm just being like hyperbolic to to define that line. You know, but I'm in my argument there is I think my argument is like I think where games with the real Power of this medium can happen is in that that middle ground where it's like You have agency and you feel like your choices matter But you have a great narrative that this like that forces you to you know Track along a great narrative and I I mean there are very very few games that do that well I mean, I think here's all make the analogy and I think what they're trying to do in fire watch The analogy and gone home where you have no real agency over what happens,

sort of how you address it or how you went and where you encounter it, what they do in Gone Home that I think works so well is that there's this parallel between Cat Briar is exploring the house for the first time. Her family moved into it. She's coming home from overseas. So like Kat, you're in the house at the same time she's in the house. She doesn't know what's

going on, you don't know what's going on. So like both character and player are sharing some of this experience at the same time. So it feels like you're not only playing this part, but you're also you're not only playing this part, but you're also sort of watching the character. Well, you have sort of an unreliable narrator, but it's like you both don't know things. Yep, but I find them out together. You're making certain assumptions based on tropes, based on your experience playing games that aren't the same assumptions that she would make or is making at the time. And so, like, you know, there's the way I put it in my, I think, my game of the year right up for polygon, that actually won our game of the year, that year.

I said that there's skeletons in the closet, and like, I think for the player, you might be expecting real skeletons to come jumping out of the closet. But, you know, it's actually the, well, it made a four-hours adult in the closet that cats experiencing. It does fuck with it. It does fuck with the expected in gaming. Yep. Because like you go down to the basement and you're like,

oh shit, the scary basement. Like there's going to be a monster or ghost or something. It is, but there is a monster and it is scary for the reasons. But like, you know, Right, but it's not the predictable. Yep. You know, it's like in Firewatch, if a, if like a rebel from Far Cry jumps out at you, you know, it's like that would be expected in a way. What if you were walking through Firewatch and there was just a section with like, I am,

you know, one of the bases in Far Cry, you're deliberately, you're deliberately. Yeah, you just like, well, the, yeah, I just say have to calibrate it. You have to calibrate it. You have to calibrate it. You have to calibrate it. My favorite thing, I just say my favorite thing, all I really wanna do in Far Cry is go around and find interesting ways to liberate base camps. Like that to me is weirdly, I don't know why it's enjoyable, but I love like getting nestling in a hill somewhere over the camp and thinking like,

okay, how am I gonna do this? I think it's one of the most brilliant, by the way, I've never played far any Far Cry games before the third one. And even then it was a little bit of a gamble. I'm like, I don't really like first person shooters. Like, that's not really my thing. Oh, it's so much fun. But those games are rich as fuck.

I mean, they are really, Far Cry 3, I played, I don't think I, did I finish it? I don't know if I even finish it because I got in between, I was playing on the 360 and I got the one. It's kind of annoying actually.

And like I'm not gonna have them both hooked up because I only have so much space in my house. I don't think you have to finish a far cry. No, you don't. But it was like, it was actually like, the liberating that these like, camps is, it's a weird joy that I don't feel in many games. You know why? It's like you just, it's like a real joy that I don't feel in many games. You know why?

It's like, it's like a real, you really get to do it your way. You really get to figure something out strategically. It's not like no one's pushing you into a decision. Have you, have you read a bunch about Far Cry Primal? No, I saw it on, I was browsing in the PlayStation store and I saw it. What is that? So it's a, it's a new Far Cry game. It's maybe a little more focused. I think Google this. Just googling this right now.

But there's no, it takes place in like Stone Age. There's no, there's no real dialogue. The story is like very thread bears, maybe not the right word, but it's a very like like hone down. So it's not this action movie with these big characters. It's like, it's very kind of, it's like, purified Far Cry experience with the weapons or much more simplified. And our review of it basically said like, they're, you know, it's really audacious what they're trying to do. It doesn't necessarily succeed on every point, but it is very successful in a way that you might not expect.

Look at him looking at your review right now, Justin did it. He also did a video review where he pets all of the animals and gives them a score. So if you want to see some graphics, these graphics are impressive. Yeah, it's a good thing. This is their own engine, right? Yeah, it's called the Dunia engine. I think that's, it's called the dunia engine. I think that's what's called. They made it with um Far Cry 2, um Far Cry 2, which when you know sort of, you know, this game playing like model that you're talking about, that was very much like defined by Far Cry 2. Um Far Cry 2, Clint Hawking

designed, um, had had this, this sort of like, this idea of like repercussions. It took place in Africa, if you, you know, through a fire or like, I don't know, shot up rocket launcher. If the grass was dry, it's gonna catch on fire, and it's gonna maybe like light you on fire. There was this idea that like everything sort of impacted everything else. Butterfly effect.

Yep, and in the engine, like that has, you know, to your point, going to liberate a base feels so exciting because it's so emergent. Things just kind of happen. So there's no guns in this game. No. That's cool. I mean, that's the, this to me,

and so this is where, this is why Firewatch is so important and I think games like it, this is getting back to the conversation we're having. And I will check this out. I mean, I really shouldn't buy anymore games. I've bought so many games that I've not, like, even played a quarter of the way through.

I mean, the amount of money I've spent on games that I have not really played very much is criminal. That's like every steam owner. That's how the industry functions. Is people like me who are like, yeah, I'll spend $60 on this game and never play it. You know, like Fallout 4, which I like, I love Fallout. And I'm pretty into the new game.

And so I'm not like obsessed with it, but I've played like, like, maybe 10% of it, maybe. Oh, well, that's a different. I know it's a different. I mean, you play a lot. And well, I mean, no, okay, then not that, like 2% of it. But I'm not even like narratively speaking. I'm not even like any of it. I haven't done to it. Yeah. That's that's how I play every with us a lot. And well, I mean, no, okay, then not that, like 2% of it. But I'm not even like narratively speaking, I'm not even like any of it. I haven't done to it.

Yeah. That's how I play every with this a game. But to the, this is what Firewatch is, why Firewatch and gone home and what is it? Everyone's gone to the rap show, everybody's gone to the rap show, which I think was less successful in many ways. I didn't finish that. That's how unsuccessful it was. Yeah, I would agree.

But games like that are really promising because they present a different way. The first off, they have finite storytelling capabilities, which is great because you do want like, increasingly I want games to feel more like an episode of a show or like a really good movie versus like, my life. You know, and I do think like there is the hardcore gamer instinct is to like create game experiences that just go on and on

and on and you get super immersed in them. And at some point, you're kind of like, tell me a great story and do it in a new way. And then let me get on with my life. I think this is increasingly true that there are different audiences for games. There's no monolithic gamer. And this sort of gets into a lot of the politics

of that current gamer. Actually Chris. Yeah, sorry. Well, sorry. But there's no monolithic gamer anymore. And so there are gamers, gamers who really like Candy Crush. And there are gamers who really just like to play old Nintendo games on that old NES that they still have hooked up.

And there are gamers that love just one game. They like legal legends. And that's it. They play lots of legal legends and nothing else. Those are still gamers. There's also gamers like myself who are like you. I'm still, you know, I'm plowing through Rise of the Tomb Raider and getting all the achievements and doing all the tombs And it's a lot of fun and I'm also playing Firewatch and I'm also playing the new walking dead game

Michelle and you know, I like games that are so good so far. Yeah, and it's it's getting good write-ups We don't run a review yet. Does it track with the star? I'm just clicking around the site because I've missed a lot of these reviews. Does it track with the show? I don't think so. I'm not caught up on the show. I'm like, I have a surprise. Yeah, neither am I.

So that's why I'm asking because I don't want to add up. My guess is no, that what they've mostly been doing, telltale is like these things that are sort of parallel to, you know, in between this season and the season, like what did Michelle and Duke, like they might do something there, but I'm not sure where it fits into the show. Oh my god. What is this? What is this vibe game that you've got on here? Okay, if an experiment. Oh, yeah, brokage an experiment. Yeah, you're

God, look at this. Yeah, this is what I want This is what I need in my life. Ben Kutcher did a write-up on that game and like how you won't let us kids play it And it's not that it's that violent. it's not. This is, it looks terrifying. But it's terrifying in a way that games on a flat screen aren't. So this gets into, so one of the things I want to talk about VR and walking simulators is that, I don't know, I think it is like a desensitization.

I don't know, do I say that right? Maybe. And when you, when you play games like Far Cry, the amount of things that you do in a 30 second window, you fly down on a hang lighter, you jump off, you land on next to a Jeep, you jump in it, you drive to the base, you get in the back, you shoot a gas canister with the top mounted machine gun,

it blows everything up, you jump out, and then you get a rocket launcher and can't launch it. Wait, what is this? I'm saying that's like a 30 second increment of Far Cry. Yeah. I was like, I don't know what can happen. That sounds like a Far Cry.

If you were to do that in real life, you'd be sick to your stomach in about one second. Like just the scene change, the shift. Right. So for VR, you know, things like your walk speed in games is like 30 miles an hour. And VR, it's the same walk speed that you have in real life. Right. It's not totally nauseated. So everything is like for VR, everything is slowed down. You know, like that experience of being in a place is so realistic. It's, you know,

to use the kind of cheesy marketing term for VR. There's this idea of presence that you're in the thing. And so when you have a game like Firewatch, maybe I can imagine for some gamers that are used to that 30 second cycle of firecrack, I can imagine going to a Firewatch and just being bored. But I also imagine putting Firewatch on in VR. And I have no idea if they're making a VR version of it. They should. but they should.

I thought about it a lot when I was playing it, actually. Right. I think a lot of those games, I think about like in VR, if I was even sliding down one of those ropes, what that would feel like. Yeah. Like that would feel like, oh, this is cute. Yeah.

Definitely, it's definitely, I think it, let me start that sense over again. It's definitely something to consider that the way we've played games historically has been, we've been essentially on a turbo, everything's beginning faster and more chaotic and more in terms of the desensitization. Yeah, because we're,

because we are so, look, we have technically more that we can do than ever. And, you know, our, I think generally, like, everything is like this now, right? It's like a kind of more overwhelming, more dominating, more severe. But VR changes it because you're in, you're in it.

Yeah. It's like your entire, you know, it's a 360 experience. You're physically in it. It brings you back down to the rules of real life. Right. Like you're not going to be able to move in a VR game the way you would be able to move in Far Cry. Like some of the things you can do in a Far Cry experience where you're like jumping down off of something and flipping around and like pulling out a knife. It's like you're not going to do that in VR. Like VR like you just you don't you won't have like the physical capability of doing it. So I think what's exciting to me about VR and

with games like that is it's going to create again new experience is it makes things that we you know all the rules are thrown out and we don't actually have new rules yet. One of the things I'm so excited about with this first wave of VR with Rift and with Vive, in the next month to two months. So I did, I have my official confirmation. Oh, you got your Vive. You got your Vive. Yeah, great. I didn't get it yet.

Thank you for your Vive order. We'll start shipping April 2016. Very exciting. I'm glad I can be part of this. I'm glad that everybody who's listening can be part of this. Excited. So I'm thrilling. So Vive, the thing about those that's exciting, is that all these developers are having to learn entirely new vernacular, entirely new language

on how players interact. Yeah. How do menus work? How do you pause a game? How do you move? Do you use a controller to use your legs? Right. The movement, the movement is the thing that's to me

is like the biggest roadblock right now. It's like, this is why the vibe is interesting. It only gives you, you're still like relatively limited in terms of range of movement. And you've got to be kind of like, look, you have to be kind of a nerd to do. I mean, no one, no normal person is going to set this up in their living room. Like, if they're a regular person with a regular life, they're not going to have this like in their living room, just ready at, a regular person with a regular life, they're not gonna have this like in their living room, just ready at the drop of a hat to like get into their immersive VR world.

Like I think what you think people will. I mean, I'm going to. Well, okay, yeah, I don't think you're normal. I don't think you can classify it anyway as like a normal consumer for this product. But like, so I think the initial wave is gonna be people who are kind of hardcore. But, but it's like even though you can move

Like a lot you still can like you can't traverse like a mile Like there's no way you can't walk through walls, you know what I mean? One of the things that some of the games are doing is using this idea of like Either you have a vehicle. So there's one for five like hover Reverse over craft something forget it's sort of like this player versus player one for vibe like hover, hover, hover, craft, something. I forget, it's sort of like this player, versus player, multiplayer game, where you are going around like scrapping

on this little hover, like plank, I don't know what it is. It's a little ship, but it's about the size of your space, which is like, I don't know, eight by eight feet or 10 by 10 feet or something. So it's like this small little ship that you stand on, you've got some like controls on it, so you can actually walk around your space and you're sort of walking around your ship,

but then the ship moves. So that's the way of like you have your smaller space to move in, but the ship moves in a larger space. Right. There's another game. Pretty unnatural though. Yeah, well, I don't know. Like it exists and makes sense inside the fiction

of the world that you're. Right, I know, sure. I want to, I want the experience where it's like I am My I'm a body in a space and I can move around so the catch on that There's these things like there's that treadmill that you can use to walk around which is kind of duplicating Controller inputs. They're probably making a game that does that where maybe I don't maybe you go to a place that you can rent time at and you run around at room The problem with that is one cables these things are all that does that where maybe, I don't know, maybe you go to a place that you can rent time at and you run around at room. The problem with that is one, cables,

these things are all corded. So you can only go so far. At least they are for now. Number two, the games are still expensive to make. And so you still need an audience that's large enough that are gonna buy games that they can play. And nobody has a spare empty garage to make their own holiday again.

But I think that I do think that some controller movement is still gonna be acceptable. Yes, and I think what's gonna become weird is how that exists in the fiction. So this gets onto the big difference between rift and vive. So if anyone listening doesn't know what the difference is. We're segueing into our VR, our battle? I thought it was a pretty smooth segue. It was very good.

It's like it's a good say. I always have to call it a segue. That's making it way less smooth. That's sort of my thing. Rift is $200 less. It comes with an Xbox One controller. It doesn't come with motion controllers. Yeah. I think which I think is a huge problem person. Yeah. They have them. They're making them Oculus Touch, they won't be out until, quote, later this year. Yeah. It comes with one camera thing called a lighthouse, I think we call it.

Yeah. So that's enough to kind of map the headset and not necessarily map the room. Vive comes with two that go in the corners, no Vive calls them lighthouses. Vive has two that go in the corners of your room. They map like the whole room and they map your space in it positionally.

And it comes with two motion controllers. And then the Vive headset, one of the coolest things it does, which they just showed off at CES this year, it's a front facing camera. And so there's this thing called the chaperone, where if you get too close to a wall or if somebody approaches you, it sort of like superimposes this blue ethereal view of the real world onto your virtual world. When I took it on the on the tonight show in January, this was something that was

insane that I was like did not expect did not know they were doing. They had it up on a platform. And one, you could see people would kind of materialize, like a shape of a person, like a 3D shape or whatever, would materialize in your world to show you where they were when they got close enough. But also, if you look down, you could see the edge of the platform as this green line that was like, you would

know not to step off of it. Yep. Which is pretty crazy. It's really smart. And I think Vive, one of the challenges was that they want you to play it in physical 3D space. But in order to do that, you need to feel comfortable that you understand where you are. Right.

And so that this was like, I think a really smart, very sophisticated way of doing that. And everyone that uses it says it's really cool. I have not used that feature yet. Yeah, it's awesome. I mean, it's also like 3D. It definitely gives you like safety that you don't have in these others. I mean, if you put like, if you put like a gear VR on right now, which is a good experience, but you're definitely are like, anything can happen.

You don't know. You're like not in the room. You're just not there. So Rift. Rift's focus is very much on, and it remains to be seen. What piece of hardware is better? You know, Oculus has talked a lot about the quality of the screens and their parts of the Samsung and the weight of the headset they've gotten weighed down and, you know, everything else. I think some of the people working on Rift, John Carmack and Michael A. Brash who used to work at Valve, there's like a lot of big brains working on Rift and obviously, Oculus sort of kick started all this interest in VR. But their focus is on, I don't know what they're called, traditional games, but their focus is on like, you're going to play a game with a game pad.

And the difference is that you have sort of freedom of movement of your head. And you sort of have this 3D presence in the space, but it's not the same as what they're doing with Vive, where you're using your hands to manipulate space. When you watch some of the demos, there's a demo called Budget Cuts. Have you seen the demo for Budget Cuts? No. I almost feel like, if you were to watch this right now,

your reaction to it would be good podcast radio. All right, this is a game. Where can I see this? Just do a Google search or YouTube search for Budget Cuts Vive. You'll find it. Just do a Google search or YouTube search for budget cuts, Vive. You'll find it. I really had line wants to said, like valve, not getting any work done because of budget cuts. And I was like, wow.

All right, what's the best? What's the best link to look at? There's a demo, maybe, or a trailer. There's something on YouTube, a very early look at budget cuts. Vision Summit 2016 awards. Pre-Alpha trailer. Alpha trailer, yeah. Okay, I'm a very early look at budget cuts. Vision Summit 2016 awards. pre-alpha trailer. Alpha trailer, yeah.

Okay, I'm watching it right now. I'm gonna turn this down a little bit. Yeah. Okay. This is like portal. It's portal E. You're fighting robots because it's, we talked to the developers.

It's weird to kill real people in VR. Right. It depends on who you are. Not for me. So in a lot of games, like you have no problem killing a person, but in this game, like you throw a knife or shoot somebody right in the head with a gun

that you're holding, it feels like a gun. Like, that's like really upsetting. What is the, okay, I'm confused. What is this thing that's happening where there's like a blue like burst and the scene changes? So because you don't have normal locomotion, you can't walk around large spaces, you're actually teleporting, portal style.

Oh. And so you are shooting yourself in and out of rooms Killing the guards or incapaciting in the guards and you're trying to steal something So you're trying you're breaking into an office and trying to steal something out of a safe So you point your essentially point where you want to like transport to yep, and it should beams you over there Yep, yeah, yeah, you see them like you know in these spaces You're in you're in like a small room and you need to like reach your hand out or anything to shoot your portal over there.

Right. And so you see people playing it and they're like contorting themselves. They're, they're, you see them peaking through a vent in the wall. You see this looks like an insane amount of fun. Yeah. And but like, they're doing it all in this small space in this like eight by eight space.

But inside the game, you feel like you're like, okay, now I'm looking up in the bookshelf and putting it on my thing over here. I'm on my hands and knees to look through event in the floor so I can see what's in the next room. And it's like this really active game and it's very fast. And the, and the, you know, it's interesting is the rooms in the game are all very tight. They're like regular rooms in the sense that they're small. They're like, you know, what's interesting is the rooms in the game are all very tight. They're like regular rooms in the sense that they're small. They're like, you know, eight by 10 or whatever. They're just a normal room. It is true that like, I mean, one of the,

look at this makes me think, God, every game that most games we play are like in these large spaces, where you have like infinite amount of, you know, a far cry is a great example, but there are plenty of examples of games where you're just like, in a city, in the city's huge, and you can just go wherever, but you can never go into the buildings. Like you can't go into the buildings, you can't go into the rooms in the buildings.

So it's interesting how it's like bringing it down back down to like human size. Yep. I also think of like how weird it is when you look at a game and they're like, oh, it has this huge open world. And you're like, wow, it is huge. It takes you 10 minutes. So it goes across the whole thing. Can you believe it? Yeah. It's huge. There's fallout. Well, I, and I

didn't fill it off you. It's a pretty small, at least let's say downtown. It's a small say it's colonial city. It'll still take you half an hour to walk across it. Like, right. The idea that 10 minutes is a big city is not, it does not map to life. Right. And so this idea that like VR slows everything down your walk speed, the size of things is more natural. You don't have these huge amphitheaters, or if you do, they should feel appropriately epic. But I think it makes these experiences

that feel so intimate, feel so personal. What are the examples I use that the first time I ever tried VR? One of the things I realized that kind of blew me away. When you walk in and out of a room through a doorway, that's an experience we all do every day. We don't think about it very much. But when you do, you can, like halfway through, you can stop, you can stop in between the two rooms.

If it's outside and inside, you can see outside, you can see inside. But there's a door jam that's above your head. And like you're acutely aware of it. If you were eight feet tall, you'd hit your head on it, right? That makes sense to everybody. Have you ever once thought about walking in and out of doors in a third person game, maybe?

You know, a first person game or third person? Or third person, like, I mean, I will say I've started playing this game Layers of Fear and you have to open doors. Okay. Yeah. Where it's kind of annoying actually. But like, I think for most games, you're not thinking

about that. Right. You sort of just like go through these spaces. It's like, it's something that you never even consider. And in VR, it's playing this demo and it was like a village and you walk into a building and I got worried. I got worried. I got nervous that my head wasn't going to clear the door jam.

Right. I was worried about it. I walked up to it. I opened the door. I got closer and it was clear that I had enough room, but I had to think about it. I'd like consider whether or not I was going to hit my head on it. And um, no, I mean, the physicality that it creates, this is the thing that's so, I mean, there, I mean, there's so much potential and it will change how we think of games so much.

I see you have an article, I was just browsing randomly about, you know, letting kids play VR games that are really scary. And I'm just thinking, you know, this is not like playing a video game. I mean, I just think that people who haven't used VR yet and haven't had any of these experiences, probably don't understand this. But once you're inside of it, you're not like, it's not like your brain does something for you, it does some smoothing that is really powerful where it's like you accept very quickly, and I think humans,

this is like one of our great features of humanity is where it's highly adaptable, and you accept very quickly that you're like, okay, I'm now in this space, and I have to navigate it, and you're physically there. You don't feel that, this is why it's so mesmerizing. I mean, even if you put like a gear on people and let them, I did this, I think we talked about it last time,

I did this over Thanksgiving, I had all my family try it on. And it's like people are not ready for what happens when they're in there and the experience is even marginally good because you feel that you are now like standing physically somewhere else. And it's very disorienting and it changes like your emotional involvement with that space. And it's part of where I think like input mechanics

are really important because VR can be so transportive and so immersive. But if you put an Xbox One controller in somebody's hands and you ask them to navigate using analog thumbsticks, that's still a very foreign concept for a lot of people. Right. So like who's that audience? What do they want to do?

I mean, it is tough. I mean, I will say, I think the experience of being able to move through an environment with a pretty open environment. I mean, one of the most amazing things about VR is that it provides these spaces where it seems like there's so much more real and you can do so much more within them. So you want it to feel like you can move around them as naturally as you do in a normal

space. But there is no easy solution to that problem. And I don't know. I do think the vibe has a... So let's actually, let me ask you you this between the Vive and the Oculus like which one to you seems I mean you are the expert I Which one surprised at how quickly my My not just my interest. I think I'm really interested in both but my

I don't know like enthusiasm is a different word for Vive picked up. Yeah. Six months ago, Vive, for me, seemed like Valve is a company that is so amazing in so many ways, but they're also so aloof. They've kind of a vaporware quality to them. Yeah, but they're also, it's like Half-Life 3. You feel like everything's a little bit like Half-Life 3. I think that's true, right, what they're always quality to them. Yeah, but they're also, you feel like it's like half-life three. It's like you feel like everything's a little bit like half-life three.

I think that's true, right where they're always gonna do it, but I think it's also like they could start something, but they could also just stop it. They don't necessarily feel like they have to tell people what they're doing, and they don't always have to execute perfectly well. I mean, steam machines was this big announcement, that sort of fizzled out,

and they finally came out with them this year, and like they're last year, and they're fine, they're whatever. The steam controller is neat, but it's fine. The steam link is really cool when it works, right? And so Valve kinda has like this, you know, this laissez-faire attitude about everything. And I think part of it is a function

of how small the company is, it's like 300 people. So for all the stuff that Valve does, it's is, it's like 300 people. Right. So for all the stuff that Valve does, like it's impossible that it's that few people. But, you know, so for the hardware, I just, I don't know, I always was thinking like, how on earth are they gonna launch? This how on earth are they gonna make this a competent product? And then there's HTC, and like HTC,

oh, that was the company that used to make those nice Android phones. Right, no, I mean HTC, I think the thing for me about, I mean, I agree with everything you're saying, about ValveEC, I think the thing for me about, I mean, I grew with everything you're saying about Valve, but I think the thing for me about the Vive, not the Lungo, was like, HEC is kind of like blown it on the, in the phone market. I mean, they're not really relevant. Probably not going to be around that much longer in the phone market, I feel. And I'm like, okay, so they're making VR now. Like, that's a weird pivot. And probably if it follows what they've

been doing in phones, probably not the best sign for this product. Yeah. And I think I kind of thought the same thing. And also like, this was before we knew the price of Rift, but they had telegraphed to very or the vibe was going to be very expensive. That you needed all this room in your house. And it wasn't clear back then how much, how much are we talking about, took like 20 feet, we need an empty garage, an empty room. And as we've gotten closer to launch, and I think some of that was a bunch of like designers and developers building games that needed less space so that they weren't sure maybe earlier on and they became more sure that you don't need 20 feet.

But some of it was that, some of it was not knowing what Rift was gonna do fully. Then they made their announcement last year, around E3 about the Xbox One controller. They announced the touch controllers, but they wouldn't be out at launch. And that was, I don't know, it wasn't disappointing, but it did fill in blanks. And as we get closer to Vive, you know, I think

Oculus would have announced everything. They put their pre-orders up. They sold out very quickly. They sold out through July. The site barely worked. I mean, you guys just saw me order a Vive on my first shot. Rift had trouble. I don't know if that's because of volume. They sold so many or because the site wasn't ready or whatever. When is it? When is the Vive available? April. April, it's soon. Yeah, I know. Damn, and I should finish this order. So I should do it.

So with Rift, I was really excited about it before. And I think from an industrial design standpoint, I think the Rift is a much better product. I think their branding is beautiful. And I think they've nailed a lot of the, I think the technology, the actual hardware in the headset might be better. It seems like that. Is it though? I mean, I don't know. I mean, I, I, having recently used the Vive and I haven't used the most recent version of the Rift, I will say that. But I was really impressed by the Vive

and the, and the, and the, and the, um, the hand control, whatever they're calling the motion controllers. Yeah, I don't know what they're called the ones. The ones, sure, why not? I mean, I thought they were pretty effective. I mean, listen, a hand is also a better. I think a lot of people were surprised when the pre was at CES, the Vive Pre, which is sort of like the second version of their dev kit and very close to the retail.

You know, Oculus had had all these early steps, there's the original Kickstarter unit, there's the DK2 that had a lot of improvements, then there was CrystalCov, I think, which was another one that never actually got released. Yeah, I think we suck CrystalCov at one of the CESs. Yeah, so there's been multiple Oculuses that we've seen and the retail versions,

like even beyond that, and they've been talking the whole time about how they've refined, how they smoothed out edges, how they've improved the quality of the screens, how they put the head tracking and all this stuff. Right. Vive started with the original Vive DevKit, which was very rough. The screen quality wasn't very good. It was huge. It had this really ugly design that looked like spider on the front. Right. And then nothing, there was no iteration. It was just that for a long time. And then the pre got announced at CES.

And it was a huge step beyond where they were. So I think a lot of people were surprised, including I'm assuming people are Oculus, how far HTC had gotten sort of working alone by themselves, and the Vive now, and presently the retail life, is much closer to parity with Oculus, which we've been spending the last year, 18 months talking about all the

different refinements to the technology that they've, that they've negotiated. And so I think we are closer to parity there. I think if you look at what a rift would cost with two motion controllers and two of those cameras built in instead of just one camera and an Xbox controller, I think maybe it would be $800. Well, and I think that's the price point.

And I think that's where HTC's hardware chops come in. I mean, I do think, look, they actually make, they've made really nice hardware. I mean, in terms of like the phones and other gear they've made, they're actually quite good at making the devices. So it's not surprising to me. To me, this is like makes a lot of sense. I mean, whereas Oculus, like, I mean, the gear is really cool, but that's a separate thing altogether. But the actual Oculus, this is like kind of,

they're on their own, right? Yeah. I mean, Samsung is helping them with the screens, but yeah, I think that, so I think that's really, that's really, I mean, I think that really a huge leg up for HTC. I think the reality though is at some point there has to be some, these things have to be compatible, right? We can't, we're not going to just have this Oculus versus HTC versus Vib, like, battle, are we? Because that would be very bad for the industry, I think. I think there's going to be different storefronts. I think Oculus very much wants to have its own storefront, which is fine. As long as games can exist across the world.

I'm saying, if you build something, if you build an experience for Oculus, and then you've got to go and rebuild the thing for the Vive, that's going to be really, that's going to really byfricate developers, and it's going to make, I don't think it's going to stop. I think there's no reason that a Rift game that uses a controller wouldn't work on the Vive. I don't know about the other way around. Right. Of course. Because until those controllers come out for Rift, there is something that is more...

So this is like this is going to be a PC Mac, Genesis, Super Nintendo situation. I think it's going to get a little closer. I think I imagine the Vive and the Rift in short order by the end of the year, maybe when rift has the motion in total set, that there will be a lot more compatibility across them. Now we're going to get into whether or not there is platform negotiations, right? So there's a game called a drift coming out, which was by a guy named Adam Orth. So do you remember the Adam Orth thing? He was the Xbox developer who wrote,

hey, your games, Xbox is gonna be online, like deal with it. Yeah, vaguely, I vaguely recall that. Before the Xbox One was released, and he got terrorized, I mean, I remember waking up in the morning and seeing like that Twitter had basically like blown up to try and destroy this

dude and he quit his job at Microsoft. So it worked. So it worked. So, and he went and made this company, I think they're called 302 or something. And then a drift is their first game. It's kind of like... Oh, this is the game where you're like floating in space floating in space Yeah, you got you get untethered from a thing right. It's gravity. It's gravity the game. Yeah Which is fine. Good idea for a game. Um into it. Uh, that's that's a rift game and you can get it on so you can also play it 2d It'll be on Xbox one and ps4

But you also play it in VR but on VR it's a rift game and on steam It's a 2d game. It's not on Steam VR. And like, why? Like, it's not clear. Right. Yeah, because it's a controller and a headset, right? Yeah, they basically said like, they said, I can look up the email.

They sent an email around at this morning trying to clarify some stuff. And the email was like, you know, this is up to the hard work companies. This isn't a software decision. We're just a developer. And like, you know, somebody else is making these decisions.

We actually don't even have a seat at the table. So, so you're saying that that valve and HCC could decide to make a version. I mean, how would that work? That doesn't mean any sense. I don't know what it means. Yeah, I'm going to try and get this. I'm trying to make any sense. Like, I can't even send those guys. I'm sure they would send them a version. I mean, how would that work? That doesn't mean any sense. I don't know what it means. Yeah, I'm gonna try to get this. That doesn't make any sense.

Like, I can't even send those guys. I think it means, I'm sure they would send them a vibe. Here's what I think it means. I think it means that, I think it means that the Oculus is paying for the game or as paid for some part of the game. Right. And like, I don't know how much they paid for it. I don't know what the,

I don't know what the, the optics look like on that, but it seems like there's some exclusivity. In this Q and A, I'm gonna see if I can find it, in this Q and A, one of the questions was they sort of post like a fact or something. In the Q and A, it said, so it's a, it's a rift exclusive then. And it's like, no, so it's a rift exclusive then, and it's like, no, it's not a rift exclusive. And it's like, but then why isn't it coming out? I mean, I just don't understand. Like some of it's very confusing.

No, no, that sounds, and it sounds ultimately bad for any of the early adopters who are gonna buy one of these things, you're gonna have to make one of these things. You know, it's gonna be one of these things where it's like, okay, do I want, I mean, this is what the video game industry has done since the dawn of time though, right? I mean, Nintendo,

this was like, it's entire, part of its entire, you know, um, power was that it was like, it had these games and these characters and like, they weren't, you weren't going to see them anywhere else until this day, that is the case. And that still happens with like, AAA games and, I mean, and so some, you see some exclusivity, like, one of the things that we're seeing this generation is we are seeing console exclusivity, which carves out PC. So they'll be like, oh, it's a console exclusive, but I guess what, I play mostly on Steam.

So I get all these console exclusives. I'm playing Rise of the Tomb Raider. It came out a couple months later, but I'm playing it on Steam right now. That was an Xbox One exclusive. It won't be up for PS4 until later this year. So, you know, and Microsoft now is releasing, like all of its new games, mostly, it seems,

at least they're trying to, on Windows and Xbox One. So, quantum break, which comes out in April, is also coming out to Windows. Here's their answer on why doesn't Adrift support SteamVR. Adrift doesn't currently support SteamVR because we are working with and supporting Oculus and their entry into the marketplace. We've been working closely with Oculus for most of the development of a drift and we want to support them as partners.

So it's exclusive, isn't it? Yeah, so it says all this stuff. These are decisions for the platform owners to make. We have no saying that whatsoever, not even invited to the table read. That doesn't make any sense. Next question is a drift VR Oculus Rift Exclusive. No, we are working on bringing a drift to other VR platforms. We just aren't ready to make it. That doesn't really make any sense. So next question is a drift VR Oculus Rift exclusive. No, we are working on bringing a drift to other VR platforms.

We just aren't ready to make it. That's like, what do you do? Okay, so it's like this. So it's a windowed essentially, right? Yeah, I mean, let's get an app in it. Or it's PC exclusive to Rift, and then it's gonna be on PlayStation VR, right? Like, there's some kind of new.

Right, well, that's a whole other, I mean, we talked about, we, I mean, at this point, what is Sony doing with their VR? It's, we think this year. So, I mean, I obviously, there's a version that has been floating around for a while. It was very good. Yeah, it's good. When I played it, which was like a year ago, it was very good.

I don't know if there's an updated version. I have to assume that there is. It was easily better than the Oculus a year ago. So Sony obviously, you know, to your HTC point, Sony has some hardware chops. We made a couple of pieces of hardware. They made some hardware in the past. So like, hey, you want to talk about good screens?

Like Sony can make you some good screens. They already have the move motion controls, which are using for VR. The move motion controls are still excellent. They're brilliant. Actually, that was the thing that when we were using the Sony VR stuff, it was like, oh yeah, the hands changed the whole thing. And you know, you can do this thing.

I mean, I remember in the demos, they were like, okay, now, they have a trigger on the wand, you know, and it's like, squeeze the trigger slowly and you had a hand in the game, and when you squeeze the trigger slowly, it would slowly make a fist and it was like then you could release it and obviously it was you know, it depends on your speed. That was a crazy, so you could imagine, oh I can pick things up now. And like when you can pick things up, that's a whole different situation. So the big question I have on PlayStation VR is going to be, so it has a thing called the booster box, you know, what you know about that. So the PlayStation VR headset hooks to be, so it has a thing called the booster box, you know, what you know about that. So the position VR headset hooks up to the booster box, which hooks up to your PS4.

The booster box is as far as I can tell, essentially a second GPU would be my guess. So VR needs a lot of horsepower, right? Because it's like doubling everything. You need to double it, but you also need to run, so gear runs at 60 frames a second, and some people get sick on gear. For Rift and presumably for Vive, there gear runs at 60 frames a second, and some people get sick on gear. For rift, and presumably for a vibe, there's a minimum 90 frames a second that they want per on. Right.

That's a lot. I don't know if you can say that. That's insane. That's insane. The gaming PC, like running something at 90 frames a second, isn't easy. And doing it across two screens, basically, is really hard. But the resolution's way lower, right? Not really.

No. No, you're kind of talking about it. It's not quite double 1080p, but you're talking about two high resolution screens that you're powering at 90 frames a second. So for VR for five NRIFT, you basically need a 900 series NVIDIA card. That's a brand new GPU.

That's a $600 on the 90 Ti. That's a $600 GPU. I've got a600 on the 90 TI. That's a $600 GPU. I've got a three year old card, two and a half years old, 770. It runs everything great on my TV at 1080p, but it is not powerful enough to run VR. So I need to get a new GPU. So for PlayStation, PlayStation 4 isn't as strong as my 770.

Like, how is it going to run PlayStation VR? So the way that the solution is this booster box, which they're hooking up to the PlayStation, and you know, at least from what I've been told, I'm not a hardware expert, that SLI, where you run two GPUs, usually it only has so much efficiency. It's not that efficient. It doesn't double your performance.

It gives you like a 20% booster, whatever. Right. But for VR, because you're actually duplicating an image basically for two different screens, that you actually can get much closer to like double efficiency with a second GPU. So they have this booster box that hooks up, but that basically means that they're selling you not only the headset, but the GPU. Right. And so for Rift, it's $600 with no GPU. For Vive, it's $800 with no GPU.

I mean, yeah, ultimately, like all of this is, you've got to plug it into something. Yeah. That's the thing. And most people don't really have something. I mean, a lot of people don't have the thing they need to plug it into. I would say most people, the vast majority of even PC gamers do not have a video card that can run these. Right. Like I built like I built a gaming PC like two years ago. This is not going to be

sick rig. It's not that sick. It's not going to do what I needed to do. It was essentially like better than Xbox One spec. You know, it was like the I spent $600, $700 and built like a better than Xbox one experience Do you remember what would video card you put in there? Let's do let's have a little fun. Let me go back through my email and see if I can find So what card I bought let's see what would be how would I refer to it? Was it G4's I think let's see what's in my email? So the thing about that PlayStation VR Sony

first of about in 2013. So it's really old. Okay, so it's probably a 700 series. I'm gonna tell you what it is right now. It's a GTX 760. Oof, yep, not gonna do it. Two gig. Mm-hmm.

That's it. No, sir. I have a 770 and it's not gonna do it. Well, I bought a very small, it's not gonna do it. Well, I bought a very small card too. So you can probably get a 970, which is the lowest entry point for VR ready cards from Nvidia. Well, keep in mind, this is two years old,

so I could pop this guy out and put something new in. Yep, so yeah, you could put a $300 970 in and that would do it for you. Yeah, there you go. Not bad. Let me check that out right now. Let me hit a new item. Well, this thing, it depends on like, you. Yeah, there you go. Not bad. Let me check that out right now. Let me hit it anyway. Well, this thing, it depends on like,

this is fun, this is fun. I know, it depends on what your definition of not bad is. That like for me, No, I need to be killer. What's the best? I need to get the best. 980 Ti, that would be the one that the best 600 bucks. Since it's 100 bucks.

I don't care. Money is nothing to me. Money is just flowing like water out of the tap. Go ahead and add two to the cart on this order. I'm looking for hot I just want to fit this one you fit in my you got to check with your cases and check the card video cards Here we go video cards. This is insane. Here we go virtual reality ready enthusiast video cards What I'm looking for right now. It's like it's exciting. Just give me sort by price. I want the highest Highest price. Well, here it is

Boom 1299 Ace of G for its G4 GTX 980 Ti matrix GTX I don't know why it's a PC ready video card. Is it two of them? This is a one card. VR ready. Here's one for a thousand bucks. Same model, same exact thing. This is kind of weird, it's can. You can get a 680 Ti for, well, so they do have these VR ready ones. Well, you got a 680 Ti or a 980.

Sorry, 980, right. I don't see any 980s here for, what did you say, 600? Here's one. It should be 600, yeah. I don't think this will fit in my case. That may be it will. This looks 689. 980, 980.

But that's gonna give you a six, 69 after $20, it does count. This is a great, this is a gripping podcast stuff, by the way. It's a sick frame rate. The listener really is enjoying this. I don't think this will fit in my case. I'll be right now all the listeners are doing this thing. He's thinking about the sick frame rates. Yeah, my frame rates can be so off,

so off the hook. Okay, so, Hona, let's, I wanna, we gotta wrap up soon, but I wanna move to the final topic, which is Kanye West. Okay. Now I know you're not. This makes a lot of sense jumping from

I know you're not a Kanye West fan. But no, there was some very insignificant important stuff that happened with Kanye recently, and I wanna talk to you about it. He's making a video game. Did you know he said is he really? It's what he says. Was it on the Donda chart?

He just yeah, yeah, and he released a, he released a video of it. And it's just the weirdest thing. It's about his mom going to heaven. Hold on. Kanye West Kanye West video game. Let me just punch this up on the console here. Okay, there's a polyam post on it from February 22nd. I assume there's a video in here. There's a video in there. Let me check it out right now. No, this is an

interview with him. Why are we doing an interview with Kanye West? No, it's like from a radio station. He said no footage here. No footage here. Kanye West video game. Kanye West. Kanye Quest through 3030. No, I wish that was it. It's called like one. Kanye is making a video game about his mom's journey to something. Yeah, that's what I'm looking at. But there's no video of there's an interview in here. He released it at his fashion events. Fine. I'll find it later. It's fine. Anyhow. well he's very look well Let me read you some of his tweets in the other night Let me just punch up his His Twitter handle here

First of he went on a long tie-rate about to do how great is the letter to is so immediately you have a little bit of a You know get a little worried. Yeah, okay, where is Where's Kanye here? I have to open him in an actual Twitter window. So look, Kanye said his next record is gonna be called TurboGraphic 16. Okay. It says for real, what she said. He said, he said,

he's on the super nerd vibes. One of my favorite gaming systems when I was a kid, Blazing Lasers was probably my favorite game on that console. My boy Molly that I spoke about on the super nerd vibes, one of my favorite gaming systems when I was a kid, Blazing Laser, which was probably my favorite game on that console. My boy Molly that I spoke about on the song Drive Slow actually had a Neo Geo in real life, bro. We actually played Spy Hunter, my mom's house, and he went back a leader and corrected this and said, um, one second, where is it? Did he delete this tweet?

Controversy. This is controversial. Hold on, where is it? Because I definitely favorited this. It's like correction. Oh, correction. Here it is. Correction. The name of the Neo Geo game I was referring to was the Super Spy, which I've played great game. I have a Neo Geo. It's actually sitting in a box about like 10 feet from me right now. Chrissy there. Yeah. Okay. I just found sound only one. Did you drop, did you drop something in here

to the chat? Is that what that sound was? Yeah, that's the video game. Okay, he was. So anyhow, so look, he was really into the TurboGraphics. Now, I think you and I probably have talked about this. So this game looks amazing. I just want to say this game looks amazing already.

I know you're, I know you're passion for TurboGraphics. I love the TurboGraphic 16. I have been, actually one of the reasons I had a, I had like a Palm 650, Trio 650. One of my greatest joys of having that was like, there was an early like a TG 16 emulator for it. And I used to, I was like psyched about this idea that I could play

TurboGrafx 16 games on on my phone. How much TurboGrafx 16 did you play on your pole? Oh, not that much to be honest with you. I mean, I once in a while I play. I think the controls weren't that great I played I played a lot of ninja spirit. I remember which is a great kind of side-scroller But but my favorite game is actually a turbo Duo was not actually for the Turbo Duo. It's a PC engine game that was like a super CD game called Dracula X. Otherwise known as Castlevania, is it, it's not what is it called, Rondo of Blood? Rondo of Blood. So it was re-released for the, for the Super Nintendo and a bunch of other consoles. But excuse me, the best version in my opinion opinion, and the only version that AIMB I should play

is the Japanese version that was made, the original version that was made for the PC Engine, which has one of the most incredible soundtracks. And it's like, I've played that game so much, like religiously. And I don't even really like size-girlers. So this was, I think a lot of players who are a lot of people listening to this who probably

did not ever play this will recognize it or will remember it because this was the direct or the sequel to this game was arguably the most famous Castlevania game of all time, Symphony of the Night. Yeah. Didn't really play that. Yeah, that's like Symphony of the Night probably. Yeah, I would say it's like the most important cast of any game ever made and the one that sort of, you know, the sort

of vania style gameplay of the gear gating and the huge kind of open world levels, like that's all symphony of the night. Right. And so I think a lot of people might be familiar with it, but that's sort of like polish and animation and music was rondo. The predecessor to it was rondo of blood. You can get rondo of blood doesn't make any sense, right? Rondo is not a thing. I don't know what a rondo is. But let's look at the definition of rondo real quick.

They did make a 2.5D remake for PSP called Dracula X Chronicles, so you can also get that if you have a PSP. Yeah, but it's rem So you can also get that if you have a PS. Yeah, but it's remade. The graphics are different. And the graphics are different. It's not the same. They did this thing where they, everything they made that was a PC engine game,

like Snatcher is a really good example. If you see like the Snatcher version, of course that was not originally a PC engine game, but the PC engine version, they have these like really, they look like, they look retro. In the way that like the original, they're not retro, they're the original version

of a being all games that look retro now. Look, they're not quite eight, they're not eight-bit style, there's something else, but they're trying to emulate this look and feel. The original games that limit themselves to the actual limitations of a bit hardware. Right, but the actual PC engine games look like the way PC engine games look like the way retro games look.

And they're like Sega Genesis and Sega Genesis, Genesis in Super Nintendo and then like whatever all the handhelds that came after that stuff, they have a different, they have the 16-bit feel, which is like a really distinct smooth. It kind of ugly. Like it's sort of like airbrushed. Is the best way I can say it. It feels it, all that shit feels airbrushed to me. Yeah. Yeah. And I hate the style. And it's like, yeah, they have more it right. There's, it's higher res. There's a more

larger color palette because the PC engine had some weird limitation on, because it was actually an eight-bit system with like a 16-bit GPU. It was like two eight-bit something. Something weird like that. And yeah And the point is that Kanye West and I have something in common, deeply in common, which is that our favorite game console from 1989 was the TurboGraphics. You know, and you were a DJ, like I think there's something here.

I feel like Kanye and I could be the relationship between music and in TurboGraphics 16. Yes, I think it's like there's something something that like maybe Kanye and I should be working together in some way. Well, I here's what I'm saying, I if he's looking for like a producer for for a track on his new album or for somebody to play video games with or or just or somebody that. He's just a guy who maybe he wants to maybe wants to play a neo geo. Here's the thing, I fucking have a Neo Geo in real life.

Okay, so everyone else who's not Kanye West hit pause, or no, jump forward 30 seconds, if you can't listen to this. Josh, let Kanye know what train to get on out of Grand Central and what's up. Yeah, yeah, you just pop on a train. And he's in New York right now, I should go find him. Kanye, when you're in New York. I should get my Neo Geo and walk the streets looking for Kanye

Josh you'll go to him. So I love LA. I love LA. I love the weather there It's nice. I mean, how what is this? What is there any you can you draw? Had did you guys cover this at polygon? What the game? No, did you cover Kanye? This is a huge 16 thing. I don't think so. We have a great I'm surprised that the fader literally did narcos like Kanye announces his new album title choreographics 16 This is a huge moment. The 16th thing? I don't think so, but we have enough cognac fans. I'm surprised that the fader literally did articles, like Kanye announces his new album title, TurboGraphics 16.

Maybe, maybe, maybe some people are just skeptical because he changed his thoughts on this. Oh, I think he's just not being even remotely in the world of reality. I don't think that that's what his next record is going to be called because it makes no sense. But who knows? Maybe it will be called that. How do you think anyEC feels right now?

Is NEC still in business? I don't know, I think they are. Hanon, let me look this up. But I just thought about my retro. I think we talked about the small ass, I was on my retro gaming strategy that I've been doing. Oh, yeah, you told me you have this thing, this crazy. My frame master XRGB mini.

So they make displays, I guess. And you see, yeah, I So they make displays I guess. And you see yeah I guess I guess they're still doing that. Yeah, NEC is still in business. Let me tell you when they were found it. Good. July 17th, 1899. 116 years ago. NEC has been around for 116 years. That seems weird. It's fucking insane is what it seems. Or it's trading a brighter world. Yeah. Yeah, here's the old NEC logo from 63 to 92,

which is like exactly the one that was on the TurboGraphics and the Turbo Duo. That's a building. Yeah, nice building. So I need to go by. I actually have a Turbo Express sitting in a drawer next to me, which is the handheld TurboGraphics. No, I was one of them.

The screen is so small. It's like a 1.8 inch screen. It's like so tiny. You can't even imagine how tiny it is. And it uses like eight batteries, right? It's like some crazy, it's like six AA batteries or something. And it's, I mean, it's like not comfortable to hold or play. And you only play if I two hours.

Josh, I feel like this is the best analog or explanation for the between Josh and Chris is that you've got a turbo duo or turbo express on the Dora XU and I've got a broken game gear. Well, the game gear was a more popular system. Yeah, but I'm not saying you're more popular, but I'm saying that where they you're into popular things. I don't mean that it's a knock in any way. I just mean, I think I've always,

you know what, here's the thing, I read the Verge, Thomas Warner, somebody wrote a thing, it was like, rip Windows Phone or Windows Phone is over, and I immediately was like, maybe I should get a Windows Phone. Like I immediately felt like, I was like, maybe there's something cool about Windows Phone

and I'm like, it's time. Missy now on all this time. No, it is, I was like, maybe there's something cool about Windows Phone that I'm missing out on all this time. No, it is, I do love things that are doomed. That's, I think that's my thing. It's like, I think the difference is that I have some kind of weird optimism where the doomed thing is somehow going to succeed. Like the palm, like palms, the whole palm web OS thing

and the pre-in all that. So just as a test of this theory. Yeah. What console are you playing your video games on now? What's your main console? Well, the Xbox One was my main console. Oh, there you go. I think you're right.

The Xbox One was my main console until they made the disgusting changes to its menu, to its interface. And I basically, like, it's so horrible and ugly and disgusting that I don't even want to use it. I don't think it's any worse than it was before. No, it's so horrible and ugly and disgusting that I don't even want to use it. I don't think it's any worse than it was before. No, it's way worse. It's way worse. It's visually way worse. I don't know. Like, functionally, if I feel functionally, it's like, it's so much worse, I feel like functionally, it's so much worse that I can't

figure out how to do certain things, but visually it's just gross. I think that's the visual quality is subjective, but I think I could say that I think that's the visual quality is subjective. But I think I could say that I think it is functionally in an improvement, but I still think it is like such a overly complicated. No, totally. I do not. I've come to, I've actually come to really

start embracing the PS4 and what I am embracing about it, what I see is that the PS4, because I have both, is actually better. It seems better for Indies. It seems better for weird stuff. Like it actually seems like it has a, somehow weirdly it has a closer connection to like, it seems to have a closer connection to the world of steam then.

And I don't know, maybe there's a reason maybe you can tell me and I've just missed it somehow. But it feels like it has a closer connection to that world than The Xbox one has and I thought at the beginning that the actual that Microsoft is actually going to find a way to open up This like platform to indies in a major way. I thought that like early on they were going to be the place for Indies Devkit every Xbox one's a dev kit. Yeah, like that's still not a reality I think Microsoft from for Xbox one's a dev kit. Yeah, like that's still not a reality. I think Microsoft for Xbox One should have been successful. And I'm not even fair to say that like the race is over,

but I think the writing is certainly on the wall. But they're gonna keep, they're gonna make another one. Yeah, but like what is that gonna look like? I think at a certain point when Nintendo took a licking, the other one that they made was the Wii. And like I would not be mistaken, there's some stuff, and if you're releasing this today, I think it's under embargo until tomorrow.

Some stuff that Phil Spencer said at the Xbox event in San Francisco last week. Yeah, it's kind of kind of hints to this. You can check it out, you can read about it on polygon.com. Check out Polygon later, no, tomorrow. So the thing about Xbox is like, I, I think they are struggling to define what Xbox is.

Is it a console? Is it hardware? Is it a platform? So, uh, you see the Xbox logo on the Windows app store for, but the whole consumer, but this whole consumer side of Microsoft is totally fucked up right now. I mean, I think it's all part of this. It's like the merging it closer to Windows and all that stuff. It's like actually a problem. I mean, I think it's all part of this. It's like the merging it closer to Windows and all that stuff.

It's actually a problem. But I think it's smart. I think it's smart to think about, you know, the CEO just said that Windows Universal Apps would start supporting Xbox soon. Like that's where we need to be. We need to be at a point where the Xbox is another platform for Windows.

Right. And which it should be because it's running with Windows. Because everything that is a steam experience unless you're on a map, I mean, the real steam experience is on a PC on a Windows machine, which is insane. So all of those games are built for a Microsoft device. Yep, essentially.

I think Microsoft is increasingly thinking that that is also a success. If you're going to go ahead and just play all your games on Windows and not buy an X-Mine, that's okay. No, I mean, it is actually huge. I mean, there's no way that Steam machines are going to be the Linux-based Steam machines are never going to break through in any significant way. I think that's right.

Because the audience isn't there and the support isn't there. I mean, even down to like the hardware support. No, that's what I'm saying, the games, and as a result, the games aren't going to be there. Because why would you spend all this time for one percent of the audience? Like you're not. With some engines, it becomes free with Unity games. It becomes pretty easy to file for. Yeah, but then you're essentially on a platform. You're like on the Unity platform, which is nice, but the Unity platform works everywhere. Yeah, I think, but yeah, it also means that you can release everywhere. You can release a Linux

and a Mac and a Windows build of your game all at once and sort of like support them and maintain them all right, um the I think that's nice, but you're you're limited by what unity can do still your big games aren't gonna are gonna be I mean you're not gonna do far cry and unity No, but they might probably you're seeing some games get ported street fighter five is gonna be out on steam Steam OS and stuff, but like I don't like I don't think it's lessons. But like, I don't think it's going to be a huge hit. I don't think it's ever going to have the penetration. I think it's a starter place. But if you actually want to get the full support of steam, you can get windows. I mean, for Microsoft, that increasingly is still a win. But it also means like why even have an Xbox one? Right. If like, you're just going to have windows or why not just make that a windows machine.

So I think like the idea of every dev kit, every Xbox one's a dev kit, that's mean that Microsoft is uniquely able to do that Sony is not. Right. And I think that directly starts to plug it into the sort of huge success of steam being this place to get weird games. And Sony, why is Sony closer to that? I don't think it's because the platform is uniquely better. I don't think it's because they are more open. They're not. It's because Sony spent more time earlier on recruiting those developers and treating them like humans and treating them fairly. And Microsoft very much moved away from it.

On Xbox 360, it was part of their strategy. And I think they, they, their new strategy for Xbox One was going to be not weird niche core indie game. It was your mom using the Xbox One because the cable machines plugged into it. That was a huge pivot for them and they focused on that to the detriment. It didn't seem to work, but also to the detriment of the other. The whole thing is messy. I mean, I'll say that. They came back around to it.

They have a program now called ID, Independent Development and Xbox. ID and Xbox. And they're trying, and they are getting somebody's, you know, the successor to Gone Home called Tacoma is going to come out on PC and Windows or Xbox. So they are getting some of those games. They are trying. But if there's a perception that Sony's doing a better job, I think that's true in large part,

because Sony has been doing it for this generation longer. It's weird because at the beginning, I thought I didn't know, it was actually, I felt like it could have gone in either direction with a cycle, this generation. And at the beginning, I actually thought early on, I thought Microsoft had an edge in some places. Because if all the stuff they had proposed had worked, right? Or actually, they'd

seen to come to fruition, like the developer stuff. That, to me, actually, was a place where I thought they were going to become very, very good at like bringing Indies in and letting them have a great platform with all of the power and all of the marketing like strength of a Microsoft around it. I still thought, I mean, you know, at launch, I think the way I would have referred to both of them at launch is that PlayStation 4 was a better PlayStation 3, better every way, better controller, better hardware, better power, better, better everything. The Xbox One was trying to do something new which was exciting right?

They had new ideas. They had new things There was some like some cool things that they did for example when you put down the controller The connect notice that the controller is put down and it put it into a low-power state right? It's like this stupid little thing to save battery life and it was really clever. It's really smart How many gameplay features could be figured out on how to do the same thing based on where you're moving the controller or what you're doing? It could read your heartbeat.

Like that's wild. Like how cool is that? But they didn't end up doing, not only did they not end up doing anything with us, they had this cool hardware and they had no software to do the launch. Well, that's using, and also was like, but then they got rid of the hardware.

And the difficulty of it to set up and to use, it's just like, it really was, I'm not saying it was ahead of its time. I think at the end of the day, it wasn't even that, I think the end of the day, Sony came out with a system that was 100, and Microsoft had a lot of PR missteps and they'll eat up. Yeah.

They didn't have any software that proved the necessity of the connect. They told you you needed it, but they actually couldn't prove it. There was no killer app. There was no killer app. And it was $100 more. So the end of the day, we have to get $100 off the system. We have to.

And we still don't know what to use the connect for. We think it's cool. They sold a bunch of connects, actually. Well, the whole first, whatever. Right. Oh, that's right. I mean, there were a lot of, I mean, I'm saying they they so there are a lot of connects in places in homes. I mean, I have one in a box.

When the last time you heard Microsoft announced a connect feature on it, there should have been like, here's this one. Here's the, here's the, here's this one amazing family experience that like you've got to have. And then here's this one amazing hardcore gaming experience that will change, change the way you think of gaming. It was exciting because for 360 connect was optional, so developers didn't want to support it. But for one, if it was mandatory, now developers can support it because they have an expectation that it's always going to be at the phone. Right. Right.

But now obviously that expectation now is gone. Right. Microsoft itself doesn't even like to talk about Connect. I almost feel like if you ask about Connect, what do you talk about? That's interesting. It's interesting we get into this conversation by talking about Kanye West and the TurboGraphic 16. So your point is that because I supported the Xbox One early on, I'm a person who chooses

failing platforms. Yeah, that's the way it's like. It's true though. I think it's true. I think there's something broken in me. There's something about me. Maybe think there's something broken in me. There's something about me. Maybe you are more like the game gear. I like the underdog.

No, the game gear, fuck the game gear. I mean, specifically my gear. Oh, yours because it's broken, no. I mean, there is something of, I don't know. I just think like, but you also get weirdness. You know, there's also like a level of weird. Turrographics is a weird system. Yep. And by the way, PC Engine was the most popular system in's also a level of weird. Toreographics is a weird system.

By the way, PC Engine was the most popular system in Japan for a very long time. This is something that is not, I think, well known. The PC Engine was a very popular system in Japan. Correct me if I'm wrong. That's correct. I don't know if it was the most popular. Let's just take a look. Let's go with the video.

Let's find out. Let's not even... Okay, hold on. Let me edit the Wikipedia page. Okay. Let's just say it was good with your beauty. Let's find out, all right? Let's not even... Okay, hold on, let me edit the Wikipedia page. Okay. Let's see. Originally intended to compete, yes. No, okay.

History. It was an NES competitor, right? It started. I don't know. Oh, Siri just thought I was trying to ask or something, how unusual on my phone. I'm looking for sales, sales in Japan, popularity, reception. In Japan, the PC engine was very successful. And at one point with the top selling console in the nation. Let me see if this is citing. This is something from from 1995 in electronic gaming monthly.

What in the name of Sam Hill is a PC engine? At any rate. So it was very popular. Yeah, it never quite made the jump over here and they had partnerships and then they sold it to another company and like, it just, there's all sorts of messy trouble there. But the point is that Kanye and I both loved it. And that's all the way that matters. I had a friend in grade school, Paul Burani,

Paul if you're listening, what's up? And he had a TG16 that I went to his house and we played Splatter House and I felt like such a big boy. Oh my God, Splatter House was amazing. You know, it's funny though, I mean, I'm looking at they have pictures on the PC Engine page, the thermographic 16 page of all these adapters you needed.

Like when I remember I bought a turbo duo and then you needed an adapter to play Japanese games, but you also needed like two- Really cool, huge cards? Well, there were these things, these huge cards that were like these thin little cards, but they had a super CD ROM that you needed to like give the CD like new brains and stuff. And it had like this kind of raised section because it had some extra chips in it or whatever. And so you would need the Japanese converter

because they physically made the cards different, I think. And then you would also need, or maybe it just had some like, maybe it just broke whatever weird little encryption they had. And then you would need this like card, this special card, just to run Dracula Act. You couldn't just drop it into a turbo duo. I love that shit.

So you still have your turbo graphics? I have it in, it's at my parent's house. I'd say in a box at my parent's house. And I actually think it's one point I was gonna, I think I took it out to play it in like, I couldn't get, something was broken. The power was broken or something. And I was like, okay, I'm putting it back in the box.

I still have all the games that I had. I actually bought a handful of TurboGraphics games like a couple of years ago for some reason. I don't really remember. I was like, maybe gonna get a new one. Tosh, you gotta get your retro in a station set. So what's it called? You gotta get a Frameister X-O-G-V-E-M-N.

What's it called? A Frameister X-O-G-V-E-M-N. A Frameister X-O-G-V-E-M-N. Frameister X-O-G-V-E-M-N. That's the Frameister, is that what it's called? Yeah, it's a little frame, myster? Is that what it's called? Yeah, it's a frame, myster. The good news is you just order one cable on eBay

and that that traffic graphics is ready to open. Can't do it. And my Neo Geo. And you're Neo Geo. We had the same conversation at the end of the last podcast that you did with me. Yeah, everyone else is thinking that they're listening to a repeat.

I know. They're not. And we actually have to wrap up because it's a half an hour pass when we said we would go. Yeah, some of this was, was, is gonna be edited out because I mean, they're not. They're not. This is brand new. Anyhow, we actually have to wrap up because it's a half an hour pass when we said we would go. Yeah, some of this was, was, it's gonna be edited out because I mean, it's very little.

Just a three minutes, just a three minutes for your order in the vibe. Yeah. That's it. And now this now people will know that I've edited it. Anyhow, Chris, this is always a lot of fun and I really appreciate you doing this

and you have to come back. We've do this in person. How about this? Once, once VR's out, we can do it from our homes, but in VR, let's feel like, let's do the first, I mean, maybe we'll be the, we could be the first VR podcast. I mean, from an audience standpoint, they want another difference, but for us, it'll be very, very amazing. Well, let's see, I mean, I'll have to get a vibe, right? Because, you know, I don't, how annoying would that be if you were listening to podcasts

and the whole time it was just people going, whoa, oh, dude. Oh, wow, you're, you almost touched me. You just be listening to that the whole time for an hour. I think it would be entertaining. Of course, we could do a capture, a motion capture. Oh, you know, we could do. We could capture the whole scene

and then that we could share that as like a, as a, an app. Yeah. You can live inside of that podcast. I call, I call Pierce Brosnan. Toob's. Two guys. Two guys at a table. You can be Jeff A.

Okay. I accept that. I do actually just listen to a small part of, of, of music to get the gist and then I move on. Just like the lawnmower, man. Yep. Okay, I think that's where we get a wrap there. Chris, thanks again. And do come back.

Thanks, Josh. Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best. But I understand that the connect has been switched on and it's watching you and waiting. And I don't like what the connect is thinking about doing. you you