Tomorrow - Episode 43: Silvia Killingsworth and Josh Explore Assonance

Episode Date: March 7, 2016

Josh is joined by his friend Silvia Killingsworth, current managing editor of The New Yorker and future editor-in-chief of The Awl. The two get into a sprawling conversation which should satiate any fan of wonderful storytelling, organization habits, Donald J. Trump, Bernie Sanders, short shorts, or social media. Also, if you love Zentai suits, socialism, assonance, Batman, factoids, or sandwiches... this is your podcast. God bless you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow I'm your host Josh Witts-Polsky. Today in the podcast we discuss socialism, salient accounting, and short shorts. I don't want to waste one second. Let's get right into it. My guest today is, and I say this without any sarcasm whatsoever, truly one of my favorite people in the entire world. She's the outgoing managing editor of the New Yorker and incoming editor-in-chief of the all.

My guest today is Sylvia Killingsworth. Hello. Did I say that right? Killingsworth? Killingsworth. Yeah, Mike is you got your off your maybe getting a little closer a little too close. No, no further. I mean further it Yeah, so Sylvia is that she's actually in my office at home right now First time I've ever held a microphone first time she's ever held a microphone and you can tell Because it's not good. It's very bad mic technique, but um So it's right Sylvia's here visiting on a weekend. Yeah, too. No, you know, you can hold however you want as long as it's near your your face Okay, I think that's close enough. I think you're fine.

Anyhow, Sylvia is a very talented woman, an incredible writer, great editor. Thank you. So I'm told I don't know, I've never been edited by her. It's torture. And is making a huge career move to managing, running a website all by herself. All by my logic.

All under herself. So this is a very exciting first off, congratulations. Thank you so much. We have, we've not had any champagne, but I am chilling a bottle of champagne. Good. So the New Yorker, you're leaving probably the most respected magazine in journalism, in the world of media.

On the planet Earth. On the planet. It's been around for 175 years. 190, seriously? No, 91. Oh, 90 was. It's the 100, 91. It's been around for almost 100 years, 91 years, very old, storied magazine.

You've been there for how many years have you been to New Yorker? Seven. Seven years. What did you start? What was your role when you first got there? My first job there was I was called the A issue editor, which could also be described as the assistant managing editor or the deputy managing editor,

but essentially the person who is in charge of putting together the issue on time every week. So cracking the whip on cracking the whip. That's where you started in that role. Yeah, you're the sort of coordinator on the ground. What is it? You have a personality that people are like they meet you and they're like, she's just going to be the boss.

We should just put her in a role instantly where she's able to yell at people and get them to do things on a schedule. It's less bossing as I think in more extreme familiarity with everything that needs to happen in order for everything to go smoothly. So I feel confident that I know the process inside and out. I know what needs to happen, when it needs to happen, and who needs to do it.

Would you say that you're a very organized person? I am. Yes, I would say I'm the very organized person. Have you always been organized? I think I've learned. When you were a kid, you were a weird organized kid. I learned how to be organized from my parents. I think, here's, try this for a weird organization.

When I was growing up, elementary school age, I had two dresser drawers, like IKEA dressers, in my bedroom. And the, now I'm gonna forget which one, the left-hand side one, and the right-hand side one, but the left-hand. I think the mic a little closer. Yeah, you're not allowed to. I'm going to forget which one, the left-hand side, one, and the right-hand side. I don't think that's the mic a little closer. Closer?

Yeah, you're not allowed to. I'm like screaming. Sorry, go ahead. So I believe the left-hand side was maybe lights, and the right-hand side was dark. So I basically had duplicates of top to bottom. So like underwear and socks at the top, then shirts, and then shorts and pants, I think.

Maybe sweatshirts at the bottom. I forget exactly then shorts and pants, I think maybe sweatshirts at the bottom. I forget exactly how long. You're a large collection of shorts. I grew up in California. You do continue this same four inch, five inch, seven inch, Bermuda. Yeah. Are there's all short lanes? Yes, there.

Three inch? Three inch. This is the inseam length, yeah. That seems very short. Those are the shortest shorts that J. Crew makes. You currently out of hand, though? That's very short. Those are the shortest shorts that J. Crew makes. You currently out of here. No, that's very short. No, no, no, it's not as it's not as revealing as you think.

Kind of extreme to be sounds like the short, a short short, like bordering on porn. Yeah, yeah. It's not. Okay. So three, five, seven, you know, I think this is not unrelated to when growing up I. When in the kitchen, we had different drawers

and different cabinets for different types of dishes, like everyday dishes and like dinner plates. This is not an uncommon way to organize it. It is. This is very normal. You have the like informal color, and then like silverware. We put our silverware into a drawer. My dad would place.

So the collected silverware that was sort of random and not matched to each other. It wasn't in sets. They all had different patterns on them or filigrees or some of them said American Airlines because my dad thrifted them from back when the airline used to actually have metal of color. What do you mean thrifted them?

First, you know, took them for his personal election. I don't know what you said. What did your dad do? I know first? You know, stole them. It took them for his personal election. I don't know. What did your dad do? I know you've told me this, but oh, he, he's retired now. He was a, he was an airline pilot. He was a theft of thief, an airline professional. He stole cutlery from airlines as a production.

As a no, no. He, he, he, what do you know for a very long time, he was a French to English financial translator. He's also a certified financial analyst, so he had always worked in big finance things. Neither of those things paid well enough to get silverware. No, I think he just thought it would be funny to have, you know, so how many sets of airlines, so where did you have? I think they were only American airlines, but he's going to correct me on that. I'm sure there was another kind. But could you have an I think they were only American Airlines. But I mean, he's gonna correct me on that. I'm sure there was another kind.

But could you have an entire meal for like eight people? No, no, no. It was like there was like one of each kind of thing. Anyway, the point is that there were a lot of different types of spoons. And after a certain amount of number of years living in the kitchen with my dad, I learned that there was a pattern. There was a pattern. No, there was a, that was badly, that was badly clothed.

Yeah. Okay, you were allowed in other areas of the home. Yeah, just only the ground floor. This is one of the clear. Yeah, I don't want to be the, the cover to the stairs. Alright, so any after many years? I noticed that there was a pattern to how the spoons were organized. And because the spoon I always like to use, the very smooth spoon that didn't have a little

design on the handle, was always at the bottom. And so I knew to always go to the bottom of the door to see where that was. And that's where you picked up your organization. This is where I sort of automatically learned that there are, it's not necessarily organization, but just sort of like a preferential order of things. I see. And that is how I like to line things up. And that is why you were a natural for, um, when I told that spoon story, the New Yorker was like, you're higher.

Seven years ago, you went to the New Yorker, you're like, listen, there were several drawers in my kitchen. It was spoon. Wait, was there only one drawer of spoon? How many? There were, oh, well, you know, there was the everyday spoons, then there was the nice, heavier stuff that you would use for dinner. There's also silver somewhere in a box, but that has the good stuff. Yeah.

As a K and scribe, don't I? All right. So anyhow, you go in seven years ago, you're like, I'm very good at organizing. They give you a job. I had one job before that. I was the assistant to the editor in chief of Condé Nasse Portfolio, which was a glossy business bag. Oh, a business bag.

Yeah, at Condé. That's since now defunct. Yes, it folded. I actually interviewed for the New Yorker job three days before Portfolio folded. Oh, that was good. It's extremely good timing. Really good timing. So you were in the family already.

I was. I was in the Kondai family. You were an assistant to the editor. I was assistant to the editor in chief. Who was the other chief of portfolio at that point? Joanne Lippmann, she had come over from the last general. Where did she go after that?

Uh, she's done a couple of TV. I think she read a book. Uh, she's been on TV. You still in touch with her? Do you guys stay in touch? Very infrequently, yes, we say. Hello, good relationship. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Very real. Great. It was great. Do you have any band relationships with any of your co-workers currently? Is there anybody at New York who would like to give the finger to on the way out the door? Is there somebody that you're making a face? It's like, I don't want to talk about this in the podcast phase. No. I understand. Nobody wants to talk about their enemies. I get it. And I'm sure

that everybody loves youth in New Yorker, except for Sally in accounting. Oh, Sally, right? She's the worst. You know, I love everyone there. It's really like my family. Yeah, well, you'll leave in your family. You're saying, I'm saying, you're saying FU to the whole family. FU. And you're getting a loapt to a person, you're getting someone as a loaping me. You're a loaping. I guess you don't get a loap to you.

You're a loaping with an independent. I'm taking off. Independent. Yeah, I'm flying free. Publication. Yeah. The all. Now, how would you describe the all?

Let's imagine you're a person. Let's pretend you're listening to this podcast. You've never heard of the all before. Mm-hmm. And by the way, shame would you describe the all? Let's imagine you're a person. Let's pretend you're listening to this podcast. You've never heard of the all before. And by the way, shame on you. I've actually never heard of the all. Shame on you, listener, if you haven't heard of the all. Actually, I had a profile, the verge profile, the all, of all things.

A lot of people think that it's called the owl. It is called the all. Those people are don't know how to read. Words. People think it's called the owl. Have you ever don't know how to read words. People think it's called the owl. Have you ever seen a WL pronounced that way? Yes. By the people who missed pronounced the owl. But you don't know what the the word the owl is. The word all is. At any rate, how would you describe the all to somebody who didn't know anything about it?

The all is a small independent website that tries to basically publish good content and not waste anyone's time. They had a tagline for a long time. I don't know if this is actually still the tagline. It was B less stupid. I've always thought that was clever and brief. Is there a grammatical error in that? No, it's a mandate.

It's like B less stupid. It just sounds like it could be also a meta, a sort of like be less comma, stupid. Yeah. There's no comma. No. I don't, I don't think I've seen the tagline used in relation to the all recently. I don't think so either. It may have been disappeared. You think you'll bring it back? We bring it back? Maybe. Now, this is you're the boss. Yeah. You are calling every shot. I am. You can reshape the all in whatever fashion

you think is appropriate. Yeah. How many, what, will you do a lot of smartphone reviews? Do you think is there going to be a lot of gadget reviews? Just the normal amount. Yeah. Do you think you'll do? I mean, it will be two-year-olds doing the gadget review.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know how to get clicks. That's it. It would get a lot of clicks. No, but so what is your, what is your, you know, do you have a vision yet? Have you figured out where you want to take this thing? I want to try things.

I think my vision to start off with is more of a spirit of sort of experimentation and throwing things at the wall and see what works, see what doesn't. I feel like it's a sort of new and unfamiliar thing for me to get behind the wheel of something and figure out like push certain buttons and turn certain levers and see what happens

and what I post you well. Sounds like you imagine the y'all is sort of a... It's a controller. It's like a cold war era. No, it's the control room in inside out and you know where they're sort of like oh, let's push this button And he what that does for those listeners who haven't seen the film inside out with Sylvia's Subscribing is a colorful room kind of a science fiction It's a very like sci-fi very colorful room with lots of levers

Is it levers or levers have never known? I know it's lever house. It's levers if you're in America and if you're in England, it's levers. And other places, I suppose, maybe Australia. Certain parts of South Africa, I would imagine. At any rate, you're imagining you get a colony, you're imagining a very complex sort of like machine room, but actually you'll be dealing with a problem

like four buttons and two levers. So you want to play around, you want to experiment? Yeah, I want to just try new voices. Yes, for sure. New recurring features. Yeah, I think you don't want to play out features too hard. I like the idea of it sort of being... Features, but you know.

Sure, you know, rubrics or columns or sticks. Stick. You don't want to wear your stick too thin. Right. You want to have a little variety show, but you want your variety show to even have some varieties. You don't want to always, you know, you don't want to lean too hard on a certain formula. My impression is that you are going to be, I'm very excited about this because I love the

all. I think it's great. It's been run by, I should say, if you guys know, I had John Herman and Matt Buchanan on together who are the departing editors of the all. Well, I don't know what's going on with Matt. I actually, he's sticking around. He's here still. It's very red. It's still red. But John Herman has become a David Carfello. Yes.

He's a jolly good fellow as well. As you know, I'll just edit that out. He's become a David Carfello, which means he's going to the New York time to write for the next couple of years, along with Greg Howard and Amanda Hess. Amanda Hess. Yes. I always conflate Amanda Hess. Amanda Hess. Yes. I always conflate Amanda Hess and Amanda Hess, sir, because I have very similar names.

So it's Amanda Hess, we're going to have that. Yes, Hessir is food 52. So it'll be a whole new world. It'll be a whole new world. Do you think the media, do you think media is a bad place to be right now? It seems like a very dark time. I hope not.

It's a dark time. It's a both there. Yes, we are both there. But don't you think it's a very dark time and content production? I've it's a very dark time content production. I've seen probably the darkest of times, which was the year 2009. Was that the darkest time? It felt like it to me.

Well, partly because I was at a business magazine and we were covering the financial world, which was collapsing. That was affecting all of the business world as well, which included publishing. Right. It was directly affected publishing. Yeah. That's interesting, actually.

I know I'm like a depression era baby when it comes to, I was forged in the sort of, I got into Conda and asked, right at the top of the roller coaster when it was like, everyone was spending lots of money. It was really glossy and it was really cool and it was like right after the Devil Wars Prada and everyone had a certain impression of what it meant to work at Conda and asked and how great it was. Did you think it was going to be like the devil? Just money flowing out of my ears.

Did you feel like you were like the halfway character? Not really. I mean, like just. Not really. I mean, I was Mrs. Den, I definitely did. It says duties. What would I mean? It was obviously for a different person. Of course. For a different publication, but.

Yeah, she wore a lot more Chanel. No, really. Interesting. But no, I mean, that's really, because I think of 2009, and I'm not like, oh my God, it was so bad in 2009. In 2009, I, just have any pretty good time. Yeah, I mean, I was in AOL, I was running Engaget, right? I think if you were in the tech on the tech side of,

yeah, of that, of media, it was probably fine, but it was great. But I was in New York, I was in a fire best part of our best year. It was just, it was just kind of a meltdown recession. Well, I mean, yeah, the print print is very tough. Yeah. And now you're moving away from, no, because you've worked on, like, you don've worked on, like, you don't work on the digital side of the New Yorker.

I mean, you have some in action. I mean, the New Yorker finds its way to digital. And so in that sense, but you're not like, I'm not, your focus is the magazine. Yeah. Yeah.

And so now you're moving from, you know, a, you know, this, which is a very different pace. Right. The pace of a magazine. Although I will say, because it is a weekly It is much obviously much faster than a monthly, but it's it does have quite a it's not a daily It's not a daily the website is though of course the website is but I mean you're going from it'll be a very different

I mean it's like there's a really interesting transition the periodicity will change. Yeah I mean, you know, I think of course, the, I mean, I think the model, the, I mean, personally, I sure everybody at the New Yorker would, would be scandalized to hear this, my opinion on this, but I think for, in order for magazines to really survive and to actually to flourish in the age of digital, like, I think the entire process should basically be reversed, where like, if you have a magazine in a website, oh, yeah, you should be, you should basically be like creating the like if you have a magazine in a website, oh yeah, you should be. You should basically be like creating the most amazing like digital stuff in the world and then like cherry picking that.

Exactly. To create the magazine. Whereas like a lot of magazine still, I mean this is 100% true in almost every situation, every person I know who's at a magazine, where the magazine is its own, has its own track, its own thing that it's doing and then like the digital piece is a secondary or side piece. Now, I know the New Yorker actually has a much more built out digital side. It's different from that, especially now

that we have a paywall. So everything, it used to be that we would only put one big feature online every week, chosen from the magazine, and we would sort of track how well it performed and see whether people read it or not. And now we get to put the whole magazine up, and we get to sort of compare all the articles. And it's interesting to see like the articles now have lives of their own. Another thing that you have to consider is we have we put out so much every week that

there are things sort of free floating out there from like maybe two years ago that suddenly become relevant again during the during the show making a murderer. They talked a lot about the read technique, and so there was an article from 2013, I believe, that resurfaced and had new life and gained a bunch of traffic. That's so awesome. That's something you're not talking about having a magazine

for 91 years. It's like having a library and you're like, oh, you should read this. Or if you liked this, you should also read. Yeah, I mean, that's the nice thing about being around for a really long time and being able to pull from the archives, but you know what's weird is that most content that is created now,

I mean, I'm just thinking back to like, verge content, like a lot of our stuff that we made, the way you frame it, the way it's written, the way the space that it exists and when it's created, it doesn't lend itself as much to doing that. Like it's a much different kind. I mean, I guess like a daily news site, obviously, is very different.

You know, but like I think back and there are certainly places where there were stories that you could, you know, repromote. I think in fact, they just did with something. But, you know, same thing with same thing at Bloomberg, you look back at the archives, the recent, even the stuff that wasn't that old. And it's, I feel like the framing in New York

has a way of telling really amazing evergreen stories. Like, you know, like, like, another big difference is also just the ambition. You know, when we talk about New Yorker stories and classic pieces that it's similar to saying the platonic profile of, or like the canonical version of this ideal piece. Right.

Because so many of those are sort of like classics. It's like the criterion collection of journalism. And you're leaving it. Oh gosh. You're leaving it. And you're going to be able to tap into this rich archive to when there's something going on when Trump becomes president of the United States.

I might swipe some keys. Yeah, I guess you could probably like sweet talk somebody over there and say, let's crack this one open. I mean, at this point, you probably could very easily say, you should put this one. Because what does the New Yorker do? It basically what happens is they'll just make articles

available for everybody at certain times. Yeah, and it takes quite a bit of work because you have to, these things are in PDF format and you have to use OCR and recognize the text and then clean it up and style it and do drop caps. Not all of it. We've done quite a bit. We go through and do archive collections. So, you know, true crime stories or science fiction stuff. Like we will sort of crawl through and a lot of stuff. Have you done a romance one? Like a love? I believe we have actually. It's like a Valentine's Day slam dunk. No, we have actually a lot of stories. No, we did we did love stories

at some point. Maybe a bunch of like love stories and fiction or something. Yeah, that's so great. I should I should just go find an archive of content somewhere and uh, mine it. Mine it. Yeah. For a while. I wonder if there's any just sitting around that nobody's looking at or thinking about. Sure. So I must be many defunct now defunct magazines that are or thinking about. Sure. So it must be many defunct now defunct magazines that are have like incredible stories. Yeah, you could. You could. This is a random, extremely random idea. You could revive all the old like lingua froncas and spy. Spy would be great. Spy would be very good. Who owns spy? Who owns the archives of spy? Good question. Who own to spy? Who published spy? Why do I not know the answer to this question? The person that we don't know that we should know that it's probably

content to ask. There were a lot of people who are now going to ask. Yeah, it's a good app. Hold on. I hung your phones on the, you know, I just I use this computer here. We're luckily we're in a room with several computers. Several computers and two dozen keyboards. There are not two dozen keyboards in here. There are way fewer than two dozen. Count how many keyboards are in here? One, two, three on that desktop. Four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11. Wow, it's not even 11.

There's 12, 13. You're counting that. You're counting that apple. I don't think that counts. Yeah, of course it counts. It has a keyboard. A spy magazine. I'm not going to say it. So how many did you say? I don't think that counts. Yeah, of course it counts. I have a keyboard. Spine magazine.

So how many did you say? I said, first I said, oh, 15, one behind you. I have a problem. I said two dozen, which is pretty close. I have a bad problem. So um, Graydon Carter,

it's Kurt Anderson. Independent. Is this what I'm getting here? I thought it was 1987, but it says it. 86. It was found in 86. They might have first published in 87. Yeah. No. Okay. Long and short is I'm guessing that Gray and Carter owns spy. Kurt Anderson or a Gray and Carter. Right. I didn't know Gray and Carter had a real first name.

Do you know what it is? Edward. Edward. He's got great hair. All right, this is a really compelling piece of the, really compelling piece of the podcast. Listen to us while we Google. Yeah, seriously.

Actually, this is a pretty common. This is a pretty common. Usually when I do it, when I do it, when I'm in the studio, in like the proper studio, when I had Magnus, my producer, who has moved on to... Where's your proper studio? It's in... It's on 24th. Oh, okay. I didn't realize that wasn't just your bedroom.

No, I go into the studio most of the time. I've done a bunch of them recently from in the office, and I'm between producers, so it's made a little bit more difficult because Magnus, again, has left. RIP Magnus. RIP Magnus. But normally, when this sort of thing happens,

because it happens all the time, where there's a question that comes up, he will go and research it, which is very handy. Very. Now this creates a whole sort of work stoppage. Sure. Anyhow, all right, let's take a quick a quick break sounds good and then when we come back I want to talk about what's going on in the world right now because you're gonna have to be you have to get your hands

I'm gonna nasty and dirty not to start reading the news here for the fairs of the world I can be in your little New Yorker bubble anymore Which never ever addresses any of the affairs of the world I will right back with more so don't worry. Do love books but feel like you never have the time to read them? I'm personally flaked by this issue. Well, audible.com has the perfect solution. Get audio books and listen to those books, even meaning to read while on the go. You could be sitting still, I assume, but you could also be on the go. At the gym during your commute, audible.com provides over 180,000 titles from the leading audiobook publishers, broadcasters, entertainers, magazine, and newspaper publishers, and business

information providers. Their app is free and it works on iPhones, iPad, Android, entertainers, magazine, and newspaper publishers, and business information providers. Their app is free and it works on iPhones, iPad, Android, and yes, even Windows Phone. You can also download and listen on your Kindle Fire and over 500 MP3 players if you've got something that you call an MP3 player. And unlike a streaming or rental service with Audible, you own your books so you can access your books anytime

and anywhere right from your smartphone. Audible.com has the great listen guarantee. If you decide you can access your books anytime and anywhere, right from your smartphone. Audible.com has the great listen guarantee. If you decide you don't like the book you chose, no worries. You can exchange it. Any book you aren't happy with for another title, anytime, no questions asked. It will not give you some kind of dressing down for choosing a different book. You know, I recently listened to 11, 2263 of the Stephen King book, and I had to listen to it.

I couldn't read it. I just, there was no way that I was going to be able to multitask and get that book finished because it's pretty thick. It was an amazing experience. I highly recommend everybody takes a listen to it, but it's great because I really have this problem where cracking open a book is just something I never find the time for during the day. So listen, check it out.

Just for listeners of tomorrow Audible.com is offering a free 30-day trial membership. Go to audible.com slash tomorrow and start your free trial. Again, share your support for this show and me. Let it load me and get a free 30 day trial at audible.com slash tomorrow. All right, we're back with Sylvia Killian's worth. The editor is soon to be editor in chief of the all current managing editor of the New Yorker. Current Current near former managing out of there at the New Yorker Anyhow we were just talking about world of global affairs world affairs now It's obviously the New Yorker covers everything and now what I think is weird actually is that

You know, I've written a couple things for the New Yorker for like about technology and stuff and like every day They're doing essentially like news coverage. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I'm website Now analysis as well. Right. Of course, news and it's more analysis than anything. It's really like, no, they're not writing breaking news stories. And when it's less than the New Yorker covers, and it was breaking news, it was less than the New Yorker was like breaking news.

Jill Abramsen. Scoops are different. I mean, like they're not like, yes, scooplets anyhow, so now, like, how much of that will be, do you think that will be like part of the diet at the all? I mean, because it isn't really at this point. Not really. I don't think it's a news site. It doesn't seem like. But you don't, but you'll want to, you'll want to do some analysis.

You'll want to be. Yeah, sure. I'll talk about what's happening in the world. Yeah. Analyze it. Trump. Disact it. You'll discuss Trump. Trump, the Trump ending.

Do you think, has there been, yeah, I've actually read in the all today. There's a great'll discuss Trump Trump the Trump ending. Do you think has there been yeah? I've actually read in the all today. There's a great story about Trump's Trump University Which apparently he says was a great business it turns out not one of his businesses has ever really been that great Do you consider yourself a very political person? No, you don't? I don't have any you don't have strong political leanings or preferences? Not hard strong, no. Really?

Yeah. Really? That's interesting. I feel like I should have known that about you and yet I would have guessed that you had very strong. I feel like I try to just be reasonable and that's the extent of it. Right. But your reason tends to fall in the realm of like hardcore liberal, leftwing, leading hard, no. Nears socialist thought, right?

What do you say? Emily Greenhouse did photograph me holding up a socialist newspaper yesterday for proof of life, but that was a personal episode. A personal socialist newspaper? Yes, a current socialist. What is that? What is that?

I don't know, I can look up the... Is your phone on the airplane mode? It's on airplane mode, but I can still look up my focus. Okay, yeah, you can. I didn't know there were So you're following the airplane mode? It's on airplane mode, but I can still look up my. Okay, yeah, you can. I didn't know there was any, there were any socialist newspapers. Well, Park's slope is a very different place. I feel like a newspaper is exactly what a socialist would do.

Would public. It's called the socialist alternative. So it's an alternative to regular socialist. Regular socialism. All social. If socialism as, you know, the sort of commonly accepted and broadly practice socialism is not your cup of tea. This is the publication for you. What was the point of holding it up?

You know, for laughs, I guess I know. So anyhow, so your political leanings, sorry, I'm like, don't you fucking explain it? I don't care. So you don't have any strong political leanings eating so you could be convinced of vote for Trump. No. You like his, you like some of his policies? No, I'd be worried that I worry that there might be people who would joke vote, troll vote for Trump. We were talking about this earlier.

Trolling for Trump. Explain this to me. Tell me your thoughts. I, there, there's clearly an entertainment factor at play. It seems like, I mean, I was, how old was I when Schwarzenegger was running for, I guess I was in college, governor, governor. Yeah. Yeah. I watched that. I watched that election from afar and was sort of like, we're not really people, we're not really going to elect a, oh, yeah, okay, you are. Okay, you did it. How was he as governor? I don't know because I didn't

live in California. He's fine. He's fine. he's quite moderate yeah right so trumps probably give me the same thing for a long time could ever be described as quite moderate in anything and he says very not moderate things but then he seems like he actually has some fairly moderate thing i mean look it would be great if he were uh... playing a big practical joke on us all but i don't think he is i mean he is and he is and what the what the practical joke be us all. But I don't think he is. I mean, he is, he is.

What was the practical joke, Pete? What would be the punchline of the joke, Pete? Like someone would jump out of his head and be like, psych, it's me just wearing a Donald Trump costume. Who would that be? Like Michelle Obama or something. It's a strange or really strange practical joke. I feel like it's Warren.

But I feel like the practical joke would actually be more like, oh, you guys fell for it. The Republicans made me their nominee. And actually I'm really moderate and not that conservative and, I don't know. Liberally super social, super almost socialist. And I mean, he's, he's, he's, I don't know. I think he's pro, he's pro, like socialized health care essentially, right? At least he's, he stated that.

Yeah. He's like, he's like pro, plan parenthood, but not for the bad parts. Yeah, he's even the immigration stuff. He's like, he's saying he's going to build the wall and he's going to the port of people. Do you see the guy in the, what are those suits called? It's like not, it starts with a Z. A Zood suit? No, it's not a Zood suit.

It's those weird like onesy outfits that cover you head to toe. Has Matt seen? No. Like some of you wear it home? Zantai. Zantai. I don't know what that is. What is this Zantai?

You and I need to Google this. You're really? Yes. Don't make me Google it right now. Please. I'll get five. Hold on. I'm going to put my mic down.

Okay, so there was someone at a Trump either rally or press conference or speech giving situation maybe yesterday dressed up head to toe as the wall. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z.

Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. Z. I think that's what it is. Then I suit shop. Here we go. Brother. Okay, I see, I see.

I see what's happening here. Oh, I see. Yeah. If you ever watched it's always sunny in Philadelphia. You'll be familiar with the guy in the green. Can you see through these? I don. Yeah. If you ever watched, it's always sunny in Philadelphia. You'll be familiar with the kind of green. Can you see through these? Maybe depends on how is this a sex thing? Yeah, probably. It seems like a sex thing. That's the wall one.

Oh, no, that's a spider man. Okay. Well, yeah, I mean, it's not not a sex thing. Probably there's a lot of videos you could go really. You can see through the heads of these. Like there's a way to see you. I've never personally worn a Zentai suit. Very interesting. Yeah.

Very interesting. Very, very fun. One of the funnier. I'm unusual. Please do yourself a favor. If you listen to this, you do not know what is it. See, I've seen these before, but I didn't know they had like a name. I thought this was just some weird costume.

There's a really great U.D. and T.A.I. one word. Please do yourself a favor and... Suit yourself. Suit yourself. These are bizarre. They're extremely bizarre. One of the... This is fantastic.

I've ever seen on Video Gum was just a link to a YouTube video called like something surprise and it was a guy in his anti suit and he like unzipped the suit and underneath it he was wearing another. Of course. Sorry for ruining this prize. Yeah, wait it. Spoiler alert. Don't.

It was definitely a sex thing. An anti video. This is at 100% sex related. There's no way that anybody's putting on his anti-suit on. I mean, everything is in a way. Well, everything is not 100% sex related. I can think of some things right now

that are not sex related. Disagree. Trimy. Peeps. Easter. Okay. Keep going. I'm like, let's see where this leads.

Funnies, springtime. Funnies. Funnies. Fucking like rabbits. That's a sex thing. But you had to go really far. springtime. Funny, fucking like rabbits. That's a sex thing. But you had to go really far. Not really. That was like four steps.

Anyhow, Sylvia, let's get back to it. Sorry. On top of it. On topic. Anyhow, what were you talking about, Trump? Oh, you were saying there was a guy that Trump really learned. There was a guy that's anti-sued.

He was the wall. So was it all bricks? Yeah, except for what he said. What he said was he rejected. No, I don't think so. I think he was. But the thing with the wall is he's saying, well, it's like, you know, yeah, we'll send them out, but then we'll let them come back in. The good ones, which is the non rapists, the non rapists, which we know is only about, I mean, who knows what's more tiny, rounded error percentage of all of the illegals who were in the bare legals. I hate it.

Is it an essay? It's very, very bad. It's funny to say that. I mean, the new, the new thing with Trump is that he's, he's created an incredible, like he's a lightning rod for racist in this country. But doesn't it seem like, call me crazy and maybe will? Does it seem like the Republican party has become increasingly, right, increasingly hard right nationalists, T party, religious, um, the T party, but isn't it also that it

just seems like common sense and society is moving towards a generally more liberal, certainly moderately. Sure. Yeah. If you follow like Supreme Court decisions over the last 40 years. Yeah. And other countries as well, not just, I mean, obviously, you know, the Middle East, you know, the areas of the Middle East in places, notwithstanding, but like, you know, in Europe, obviously, you know, there's sort of widespread adoption of many things that we would consider to be liberal socialist policies. And it seems like here in America, I mean Canada, certainly this is the case, it seems like in America, we are, you know, it's not like, I don't even think this is a political question

at this point, right? It's like, it seems like as a species, we are gravitating towards certain ways of, I've talked about this before in the podcast. So what I think is odd is that the Republican party isn't like, oh wow, look at how racist Republicans have become. It's like Republicans, it's like the idea of a Republican is getting less and less clear like what that actually needs.

Yeah, yeah, I think the Republican party is having a major identity crisis. Yeah, what do you Republican Party is having a major identity crisis. Yeah. What do you think started the identity crisis? Do you think it was being out of step with modern identity? Because that's what actually happened. I think the radicalized, the sort of evangelical Tea Party, whatever you want to call it, fringe splinter sort of thing.

You can only have so many gay relatives before you're like, oh, I think some of the things I think are just wrong. Yeah. Like because every Republican, Tea Party or otherwise has somebody in their family who's gay and at some point, there's like enough like just regular gay people hanging around, you're like, well, maybe all the stuff

I thought about gay people can't be right because like my family's full of them. I think you're understanding people's ability to sort of, you know, make excuses for things and find reasons why their opinions are correct. I guess that's possible, but it definitely seems like the concept of a moderate Republican party is like, it's like increasingly in the rearview mirror. Right, yeah. I mean, that's just what you have with polarization that the two opposites

get so far apart from each other. But has the left wing gotten more extreme? I don't think it has. Do you think that we would have had a, like, a self-called, so like self-stated socialist Democrat in the 2004 election? No, but I also think that lots of, there are lots of really interesting, very colorful candidates in the, in the primaries who don't end up being the... The natives. Yeah, I think if Bernie Sanders becomes the nominee for the Democrats, which seems, it seems increasingly unlikely that that's going to happen. Like just on a pure math standpoint. And in the reality is that he's really not

that well known in most of the country. I mean, he's really well known on the coast. I think that's not that uncommon. Yeah. I mean, Ralph Nader got, you know, a percentage of the vote. I mean, a bunch of people, but an extreme way more extreme than Bernie saying he makes Bernie Sanders. He makes Bernie Sanders a little bit of the vote. I mean, a bunch of people, but an extreme way more extreme than Bernie. He's saying he makes Bernie Sanders a little bit of Trump. Right, but he was never actually reasonably electable. No, I think he had a much closer. If he got the nomination, I think there's a very, very, it's very hard to imagine Bernie Sanders being elected in this country. Yeah, even by, I think there are a lot of Democrats

who would just be like, this guy's too extreme. Also, we can't discount what I believe is the latent, but ready to be unleashed rampant anti-Semitism of many people in America. Yeah, I think a lot of people don't understand that. I don't think this is, like we talk a lot about Israel. Like people, people in our government talk a lot about Israel, how much they love it. Yeah. I don't think our country like we talk a lot about Israel like people people in our government talk a lot about Israel How much they love it? Yeah, I don't think our country has demonstrated like a great love and support of like actual Jewish people

In our country, you know, that's just my opinion having been a Jewish person America What's been hard for you? It's been a struggle. It's been my struggle really And it's been tough, you know. You should write a six volume. There were times, there were times. I'm thinking about just a single volume. But there were times when I thought I couldn't make it

in this world. But you persevered. I persevered. And now look at me. I've got a guy. You could never be elected president. I could never be elected. Nobody would ever like Josh Topolski president.

I could tell you that. Not just because of my rampant drug abuse, but also because of my name. Nobody could pronounce this name Topolsky president. I can tell you that. Not just because of my Ram and drug abuse, but also because of my name. Nobody could pronounce this name. Nobody wants to. I will say this when Obama was running originally, I was like, listen, this guy seems great. I remember talking to Laura like this guy seems great.

Let's talk about our nation was seized for two years by the weird compulsion to say Osama. When we said, everyone didn't. It wasn't just like-ulsion to say Osama when we said, when everyone did it. It wasn't just like, did I say Osama? No, but I'm fascinated by this one that everyone always was like, would slip up and make it. Well, the name is very similar. Okay, for the first time ever in the history of America,

there was a guy who we talked about all the time, named Osama Bin Laden. Yeah. Nobody had ever said the name of Osama in their entire fucking life. Then, like a year later, no, like two years, how many years? It's like four years later or eight years later.

Suddenly, we have a candidate for president whose name is Obama. It's what is one letter difference, right? Yes. That's Asinance. It's called Asinance. It's a kind of rhyme. It's a kind of internal rhyme.

Oh, really? Yeah, it doesn't have to do it. Look at that little New Yorker factory right here. Well, there's a little of internal rhyme. Oh, really? Yeah, it's not, it doesn't have to do it. Look at that little like New Yorker factory right here. Well, there's a little consensus too. It's a little bit of a factoid. Actually, I think factoids are lies, so we shouldn't call them that, but I think the definition of factoid is that it's a problem. It sort of rhymes basically is what you're saying.

Yeah, well, they also spell this. What I'm saying, but for one, right, but what a prophetic mistake, right? Well, I, because now one of the main things that we will remember Obama for is taking out Osama. Yeah. Yeah. Also, but also, but remember because of the symbol, I mean, because his name is Barack Hussein Obama, who's saying, I mean, yeah, that's actually you talk about more insane.

We have spent, we had spent 20 years this time talking about Saddam Hussein. Although, there's something really weird about the this kind of talking about Saddam Hussein. And how he's like, there's something really weird about the fact that we called him Saddam and not Hussein. Well, Saddam was like our, it was our like kind of, our, our like conversational approach to, that's like, that's a, that's a bushy,

I mean, that's like a bushy thing where it's like, you wouldn't call him like Mr. Hussein or President Hussein. You call him like Saddam because it's sort of like a belittling way to. Well, yeah. Also, it also has a weird- It's a current President Bush George. faux rhyme with another word that's bad. Let's say it.

I have no idea what you're talking about. No. I don't know what you're talking about. At any rate, what I think is strange, yeah, it's kind of crazy actually that we have this like evil dictator named Siddhavocane. And then we have a, you know, it's not that there's any relationship except that I what I do think it did is in the minds of Americans, it's certainly normalized the idea that those words were in our those were in the vocabulary. They were part of our conversation. They're like

Osama and Obama while obviously have dramatically different meaning. Connotations. Yeah. Connotations. It was much, I think, much easier for us to go, okay, this guy's name is Barack Obama. So then how do you explain Bernie Zammuch's, Chris Hayes? I know. I think Chris Hayes.

He was just hungry. I think Chris Hayes was thinking about, he's like, I'm a bit on the fucking campaign trail for two weeks straight now. I'm like broadcasting from Iowa where the fuck he was. And he's like, I'm a bit on the fucking campaign trail for two weeks straight now. I'm like broadcasting from Iowa where the fuck he was. And he's starving. Probably somebody off camera had a sandwich. You know, his producer's eating a tuna sandwich behind him. He's dying.

Bernie sandwich. But there's something also about the way he said Sam witches. He didn't say, Sam do witches. I did. Has this been highly, has this been highly analyzed? In my brain it is. Bernie sandwiches. Do they get the, do they? I love an it has. I don't really know. Bernie sandwiches.

Did they get the, I love an ask out. Did the Sanders campaign make Bernie sandwich shirts? Bernie sandwiches? Because I would, they should make a sandwich. No, but Colbert had a, had a good bit. What would a Bernie, what would be on a Bernie sandwich? Something spicy, something spicy.

That's racist. An anti-Semitic. Okay. Speaking of, did you see the video I put on Facebook the other day? I didn't personally watch it before. It's on a place in Scarisdale called Benz. And the guy at the beginning is like, Benz, Corn B is so good, you'd think they were Irish.

Then he's like, you don't have to be Jewish to like it. This is a local commercial. It's like, first off, I think you sound like weirdly racist twice in this band of like five seconds. It's kind of amazing. He's also like an old crazy person. Anyhow, getting back on topic. So on the, on the Bernie sandwich, I think you would have, um, I think if there be something spicy, you know, feel the burn, the other burn. Right. So maybe some jalapenos. Yeah. What are those things called banana pe? Are those? Let's say this corn, let's say the corbivine. Okay. For the sake of the argument.

Could be Irish. What did you say? let's say this corn b fine, okay? For the sake of the argument. Could be Irish, could be the other. What did you say? Like you say corn beef, did you? No, well I was saying banana peppers, but... No, no, no, before that when you were being racist. When you said... You were once on a Rubin.

I think it's corn beef. Is it? It's pastrami? Yeah. No, corn beef. I think he can be either. Could be. Here's what I think it would be.

It's whatever you want to do. I'm a little hungry now, So here's what I would like. Here's what I'd like to do. What kind of cheese is most like Bernie? What's something that is white? White? Doesn't melt that easy. Aged.

Aged. It needs to be an age white cheddar. That's what I'm thinking. Oh, okay. Yeah. Age white cheddar, just like Bernie, aged and white. That's what I'm thinking. Oh, okay. Yeah. Age White Shedder, just like Bernie, aged in white. Age in white.

And so these. Well, unpredictable. So right now, you have jalapenos and cheddar cheese. Yep. Kind of bread we type. I was just going to be Jewish rye, right? Jewish rye. I do.

What could go on there instead of... Kaiser roll. Kaiser roll, really? Isn't that a German roll? Oh, you know. Not cool. not cool. Here's what I think about Bernie. I think a lot of people in the South think that he's like a Sanders, like Colonel Sanders.

I mean, people that heard the name that did know. Again, with name associations, they're very strong, you know? You think though, like Sanders, I'm not like, oh, that guy, most be Jewish. Bernie, obviously. You know what deserves me? Is that KFC is still running commercials with a Colonel Sanders character in them?

Yeah, it's Chris Parnell, isn't he? Yeah. Or they have a new guy? Um, is a new guy? I just find it weird, given that he just died a few years ago. No, he died a long time ago, didn't he? Didn't he? Oh, maybe it was just the previous actor.

What's the last time you had KFC? Uh, probably 20, some years ago. 20 some years ago. I think about 15 years ago, maybe 16 years ago. Now, it was longer than that. It might have been 20 years ago. A friend of mine, guy named Damien.

We were good friends back then. He was like, I mean, we fell out of touch. He's a well-known DJ named Dieselboy, if you ever heard of him. No. He plays drum drama based music. Anyhow, we were buddies, and he was like one day,

he was like, we should get a bucket of KFC chase. Like, when's the last time you had a bucket of KFC? And I was like, I don't know, it's been- As a reminder of why you're doing that. It's been years, this is like 20 years ago. I mean, it's probably about 20 years ago. Oh, well, I hold on, I just remember, I had to double down once, like, five years ago.

I had to double down. We all did. Yes, and it was pretty good. Brilliant marketing strategy somehow. Getting us all to eat the grossest weirdest thing. No, it's a great. It was the idea was it was two pieces of chicken as the bread. Yeah. And then in between it was bacon and cheese. Yeah, that sounds amazing.

So I was like, no, I haven't had one a long time. And we went to get like a 20 piece bucket. Bucket. Never felt sicker. Never felt. We went to get like a 20 piece bucket. Never felt sicker. Never felt sicker that after you did a few pieces of that bucket. I'm not saying KFC is not good if you like chicken, but I wouldn't get a bucket.

Let's put it down. And of course, I don't need chicken now. So it's not a problem. Not a great story, not one of my best stories, but I will say a lesson to be learned there. Anyhow, getting back to the Bernie sandwich. I don't know, I don't know. I don't know what's on it.

I'm thinking it's Jewish, right? There's some jalapenos. There's white aged white cheese of some type cheddar is what'd be my choice. Tomato. Does Bernie seem like a kind of guy that would hate tomatoes? He could. Do you know what's the funniest Twitter account? Bernie Thoughts.

Oh, Bernie Thoughts is great. Bernie Thoughts is great. I hate all these new parody accounts like the Kylo Ren, they're so stupid. Thoughts. Oh, Bernie Thoughts is great. Bernie Thoughts is great. I hate all these new parody accounts, like the Kylo Ren, they're so stupid. But Bernie Thoughts. Bernie Thoughts is brilliant. It is really great. I thought I was against parody accounts and some of this one really took me. Yeah, so you saw this one really. Yeah, so some really good ones on there.

I recommend you check it out at Bernie Thoughts on Twitter. Yeah. Okay, so anyhow, getting back to what were we talking about? Oh, we're talking about the normalization of weird names. But the fact that that that Sanders, I think, does not register. It doesn't. And I do think that a lot of voters, if they were like, oh, this is a Jewish guy from Queens, right, an old Jewish guy from Queens, might have a different take on him. Right. But anyhow, it doesn't seem to matter. It reminds me of that scene in, um, what,

how to American summer. What scene is that? Eisenberg, steam. Rosen. Do you know,, Rosen? Do you know remember this? I don't remember this. Sounds like they're calling the names of the campers in there. Just they're just riffing on Jewish. Random Jewish. Yeah. Well, we live in a bubble.

We live in a bubble here in New York. We do. You know, people don't realize that actually Pittsburgh has a very large Jewish population. So people probably love, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of Bernie Sanders fans there. I'm not saying that they're voting with their religion, but a lot of people do. Some people consider themselves as a religion. Some people do.

There's a lot of so atheist socialists. That's the interesting thing. Sure. You know, my great aunt was a socialist, hardcore socialist. A lot of my family was obviously. You know, my great aunt was a socialist, hardcore socialist. A lot of my family was obviously. I mean, Bernie isn't well. He's not hardcore socialist.

He's not. Yeah, he's a socialist Democrat. Democrat, democratic socialist. Is that what he calls himself? I don't know. I never know when you're supposed to use which one and the adjective. I don't know. Anyhow, he's not going to be president.

He's unelectable in this country. I think he's less electable than that. Hey, it's been Carson still in the race? Been Carson's out. Officially? Oh, yeah, did you not watch the last debate? No, I think he's officially out. No, no, no, he wasn't at the debate

because he was like, I think I might be doing. No, I think it's official now. I didn't get a New York Times alert about it, so I don't think it's real. Oh, is that the only way you know for sure? Yeah, yeah. But by guardian alert, he's paused as campaign, I think it's what's happening.

Well, they all have to pause it for financial reasons. You have to say suspending. What? What? Jeb. Is he anything he'll just pop back in? Um, apparently Jeb merch is on sale on his website right now. So what does that mean? Like you mean it's like 50% off like Jeb stuff that says Jeb 2016.

They're probably selling quite a bit of it. Now's the time to get you. Yeah. Yeah. First of it's discounted. For the next time, it's like the week after Christmas. You get all your Christmas lights. Do you think you would run again? I don't think Jeb ever wanted to run in the first place. I think the jab was forced to run by his party and by his family. He looked like a guy. First off, he loves his mom.

My hope is he doesn't run again because he seems horrible. He's not a good candidate in terms of his policies. I mean, I don't think he's a good guy or anything. I'm not like, oh, Jeb had great. But, you know, of course, he seems very sane and moderate by comparison to the rest of the people who are running. I mean, Ruby on Cruiser know dream boats, you know? I mean, they're not. They're bad guys.

They're bad people with bad policies. You know, they're like, I hate the idea of gays getting married. I mean, that's the kind of shit they say, right? They're like, I would repeal that, you know, Supreme Court really on gay marriage. It's like, fuck you, you're a piece of shit. Like you're just a bad person.

Like that's all there is to it. Like I don't give a shit, really. If like you've got to- I think what you're telling me is that you might, if you were pushed into a corner, you might vote for Trump. I would vote for, I think I would have to say, I like Trump better than Ruby or Cruz, but

they're all horrible people. They're all rotten, rotten people who should not be running the country. The latest threat I've heard people talking about is the idea that we deserve Trump. Like we did this to ourselves and the America we created. The Republican Party certainly deserves him. I mean, they definitely created this. They definitely let the inmates run the asylum. And when you let the inmates run the asylum, you get a crazy person as the leader.

I think, you know, this is like, this is like when Bane shuts down Gotham City. And they have the scarecrow holding court. Yeah. You remember that from, what does that movie, Dark Night Rises? That's ridiculous. Hey, when did the other one,

what's Batman? The Ben Affleck Batman? Soon, she, the other one, what's Batman? It's a pretty jealous movie. The Ben Affleck Batman. Soon. She's the latest trailer. I did. Looks kind of silly to me. Yeah.

I do think Ben Affleck makes a good Batman, though. I hate to say it. Do we get to see the tattoo in the new movie? Do you know about the tattoo? Yes. So apparently Ben Affleck has a large Phoenix Rise from the Ashes tattoo all over his back, a whole back piece. And Jennifer Garner, his, are they divorced yet?

Yes. I think so. Separated. His wife, the deceptive. She's on the cover of Vanity Fair. We cheated on with with his nanny. Just catching up. If you haven't read us weekly recently, I'm just catching up.

Or NY Mag. Or New York mag. You can read about our. He. A session with the nannies. He has. He has. Anyhow, he got this big back piece of Jennifer Garner was giving him shit about it. But I think like if you get a Phoenix rise from the ashes on your back, you're actually

for it. Kind of a cliche. It's extremely cliche. And not to diss anybody who's listening who has a Phoenix rise from the ashes on their back, because if you're listening to this, the phoenix were like crashing into the ashes. It would be a little bit more contrarian. It's like giving back in there. What are the phoenix be going back into the ashes? You know, just to be different.

That's what would be cool. It would be a cool statement. People be confused by that. I feel like what does he mean? If you're going to go like full, you know, do the whole back, like do something weird. I'm going to say, I'm going to say as predictable as that.

I'm going to say like, I feel kind of bad for men. I think Ben's fine. You really? Yep. But you got that tattoo. It can't be all good. Well, you know, something broken inside Ben. Something broken a little bit inside of all of us.

Yes, inside of all of us, but we don't all get huge back pieces right. But we're all not so reckless and rich and I guess not. I guess that's true. Anyhow, so Ben Affleck is the bat is the new Batman Henry and a Caval Caval is that it he's British. I know I've never heard him So the British accent until the Oscars. I think it was the Oscars I got a very upsetting Did you see did you see man of steel? Yes, I did twice

Twice I know is that wild in the theater. No. Once in the front of the laptop. I don't think I saw it in the theater. You watch it two times in a row. No. Why did you see it twice? You like it that much?

It was entertaining and a kind of weird, but I don't think it was a very good movie. No. No. Uh, it's better than a lot of, it's better than a lot of super, it was actually not actively bad, but it's not great. People were very upset because Superman seems very dark in it. Moody. He's a, he's like a, he's troubled.

He's troubled guy. I mean, I think that makes sense. I think the, I think the modern depiction of, of a super heroes that they're very troubled people. Well, Batman was always kind of troubled. Batman's very troubled. Yeah. Yeah, openly troubled.

No, but Batman is the, is the kind of the first real modern superhero that we had. I mean, Batman is sort of the dawn. Man with emotions. He's the dawn of the, of the very sort of like, there's actually, you know, there's an article in New York magazine actually about Stanley that talks a little bit about the sort of, not that heating create Batman. But, but it talks about this sort of evolution of superheroes from these guys who are like, sort of could do no wrong. Right. To like, to archer.

To very, is that what is, oh, archer, I don't watch archer, so I don't know much about it. So it's interesting to me. I don't know why people like archer. It's funny. I don't know this interesting. Yeah. But it's like, that's. I don't know this interesting. Yeah. It's but it's like that's the sort of end point

of darkness and I guess maybe but the idea is that you know before there was a period when super heroes just they were just like Superman's actually a good example of this kind of guy. He's like, I mean he's got a little bit. I mean he's called Superman poor guy. Yeah poor guy and he's

invisible. That's a lot of love up to. Vincenble and immortal. Is he immortal? We don't know, superman age. No. Oh, immortal, immortal and aging are not exactly the same. Do they age slowly? Well, superman?

No, yes, he's superman age slowly. I wonder if anybody knows. But anyhow, the point is that Batman, you know, I mean, his story is really insane. Like, he's not even a, he doesn't even have superpowers. I mean, Batman is just a guy who's just a guy with a cool car. He's a parents were murdered. And then he decided to become a vigilante. Yeah. To avenge their deaths. And he just like got really good at fighting. Fighting. I'm looking at this. He's really good. I have a bad bad, a bust of Batman in here. That was a gift from Kidding and Topolis. Oh wow. Good. She used to work at Warner Brothers.

And they would like just leave. They were like stuff out. They'd be like, does anybody want this Batman hood? And she said, I know just the guy to give it just the Tepolski. Yeah. And here it is. And anyway, how do we get on comic books? Oh, we were taking you were asking when the new movies out. Oh, yeah, because we're talking about that black I would say about how we end up with scarecrow it holding trials because yeah, what how did I get on that topic? Something about the inmate. Yeah, do we deserve Trump? We deserve Trump. Do we deserve Trump? We don Trump. Do we deserve Trump? Pretty bleak. Well, we don't deserve Trump. We voted for sane people.

We wanted sane people to run the world. We haven't voted yet. But yeah. No, but I'm saying in the past. Oh, yeah. Well, I don't know who you voted for. Maybe you love George W Bush. I, you know, I don't know. But I mean, you know, to the people who have been voting for Republicans like George W Bush, I think this is the natural progression from like, you know, you let the tea party take it. First, you let, and then Jokels take over who really was like, I mean, I have a little bit of annoyed that the Republicans in the Senate are trying to say that I didn't vote for, you know, I voted for Obama.

And I think he should be able to nominate the next Supreme Court justice. And they're going to try to nominate anybody. He's going to. And're going to have a lot of them. Well, he hasn't tried to nominate anybody. But he's going to. And for them to say, well, let's just wait for the next guy. It's sort of like, we have partnered him to. The Republican party is 100% corrupt. I mean, almost 100% corrupt. I mean, what they've done to the government

in the last eight years, and then previous eight years is completely, I mean, is, I mean, when the history books, when this is written on. It was corruption and more, and just like negligence. They're sort of like, not doing it. No, no, but they're criminal negligence. I mean, they are not a party that is interested in the betterment of the lives of the citizens of this country.

They're a party that's interested in control of the country. And like, they exercise their desire for control by being obstructionist to anybody who is. Right. In ironic ways, they don't want government to be big and controlling, but they still want to have a certain kind of weird condition. That's a new idea. That's a new idea.

That is like a- That's just a sound bite, I think. I mean, it's also, but it's also like a part of the libertarian push into the Republican party. It's part of, I mean, it's certainly like, there is a thread from the religious and evangelical school of thought to keep out of our business government, but it's like, when the government gets in people's businesses, when the government does

what it is supposed to do, otherwise, we would have anarchy. I mean, the reality is people would be starving in the streets, which they are now anyhow, and we would have a completely... It's more anarchy. There would be more anarchy. Yeah. Right? And this is the thing that is bewildered to me. When you see the Ruralica candidates get up

and they're like, they're like, let's get rid of the EPA and the FDA and like, it's like, why do you want to be fucking president? Like, you want to run, but you want to run this huge body that has to govern everything? It's like, why don't you just go build a shack somewhere? Just go, well, they can't because the government

keeps taking their land. No, yeah. I don't think we should look. I honestly, I feel like we should be way more of a socialist country. Like Sweden? I mean, I don't know all of Sweden. You know, I know I of course had a good friend,

Magnus, who's Swedish. RIP Magnus. RIP Magnus. It's really sad about Magnus. You know, and so that gives me a pause. It gives me pause when I think about his personality, what I want, what I want Magnus to be created across the country. It's a scary idea.

But yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I, there's, look, there's good, I think, in Sweden, there are great policies that we could rip off. But I just do think, I just do think like we should have more government intervention in many areas, you know, good government intervention, not bad government intervention. I mean, I think do think that we should have more government intervention in many areas. Good government intervention, not bad government intervention. I mean, I think regulation, for example. I just don't think there should be a single child in America who starves. I agree.

I mean, I just think it's outrageous. And I think that somebody should just say, hey, super rich people, guess what? We're going to take some more of your money because as long as there's one kid who doesn't have any food, it's not acceptable because that's not the way America, that's the way we should run a country. You know what it sucks? I get it, it sucks if you're a billionaire, and you have today, you have 16 billion dollars, and then tomorrow you only have 15 and a half million dollars.

I mean, that must suck, but I feel like if this thing is probably not that bad ultimately. Yeah. Whenever happened to all of Mark Zuckerberg's money that went to Newark? I don't know, but Zuckerberg, he's ready to give his money to an LLC that he's established in the name of his daughter, which will be redistributed somehow back to Mark Zuckerberg. I suspect. But that life's Zuckerberg. He's got to really righteous lately. Well, have you noticed? Yeah. Yeah. And people about all lives matter. Sure. Yeah. I mean, he was reprimanding Mark

Andreessen for not understanding how long how long was Mark Andreessen's Twitter hiatus like four days. It was long enough that you could really feel it. You really sense it. And like Mark, he's actually a really smart guy and I think that really, you know, sweet, sweet dude, but I don't think that was a good move. Pro, pro. He's an important, I think he's an important voice to come around. I think he's an important voice ever about too. I just think, I just think if you're gonna talk about colonialism,

you should really, really. Be very, very powerful. She should be very careful, but also you should know what the fuck you're talking about. I think that's the main, that's like, look, you're not gonna be talking a lot about it. Yeah, because I don't really know. Stay away. I don't know. I could be like, I might have a very unpopular opinion. Yeah. I want more of it. Isn't that what Twitter is for and popular opinions? I think it is.

I don't know what Twitter is for. It's for rage. It has Twitter. So you wrote a post for New Yorker.com about how Twitter was or was not and showed or should not change. Yeah. How I wrote a piece. Can I just say I wrote a piece about the about how Twitter was not and showed or should not change. Can I just say, I wrote a piece about the problems that I saw with Twitter and how easy it might be for their position to be assailed by a competitor due to those problems because of those problems. Do you see any competitors?

Then the headlines put on, that was a little more fun. Which I actually don't mind. I don't mind the headline, but the headline was the end of Twitter, which is like, I wasn't saying like Twitter was dead, but I was saying that Twitter could be killed or could die. Well, no, but you were talking about the hypothetical end of Twitter or, you know. Yeah, but all platforms, all platforms will die.

I mean, my opinion is, but Twitter is going to die. Facebook is going to die. Like all of the Snapchat, Snapchat will not be forever. These are not forever. Are you saying, Peach won't be around forever? I've still never tried Peach. Peach is the emergent, the hot, emergent technology. It's like the Snapchat of, I don't know.

Peach is weird, it's like Snapchat, but like, it's like if Snapchat. What does it look like? Wait, I want to go back to this, this Facebook and Twitter dying thing. I'm really intrigued by that. Well, they'll be replaced. I sound exactly like, I had somebody on the podcast,

John Groober a few weeks ago, a few months ago. And I was like, You're Darien Fireball. And did he write about you? He did, I know. Yeah, which is very cool. He's aware, he's hip. He's hip to your stuff.

We talked about, I said like, the thing to think about with platforms is not like what, it's like, people think like, it'll die. I think the question is to think is like what would replace it? What's the last, yeah, well, so what's the last technology that really died? Like technology? I mean, technology. Technology. Platforms. Or what, so like, I mean, you know, I work at a print magazine. Do we think that there will always be press tumblr doing?

How's tumblr doing? It's not doing well. It's doing very poorly. No. My space obviously died. That's an easy one. Oh, there were a whole rash of early social networks, right? Sure. Sure.

I mean, other ones come and take their place, but is there anything that's like obsolete or do we just find other ways to do the things that we want? I think generally we find other ways. And is there something about the newer versions, the newer platforms like Snapchat and Peach that says something about what we want out of our community. Yes, Snapchat. I mean, there's just a story that the courts published

a few weeks ago or maybe two weeks ago. And this is well, sort of well established. The teens do not like to use Facebook. They're not interested in it. They don't use Twitter. They're interested in Snapchat and Instagram. Yeah. They're particularly interested in Snapchat

because it's a femoral. It's not, it doesn't go on your permanent record. It's a one-to-one, it's much more personal ways of communicating. And I think that as we, as our whole experience and understanding of technology sort of grows and matures, I do think that we are, I think that like Facebook and Twitter and a lot of platforms that we currently live with are like products of, you know, a very recent, a very recent set of innovations in technology that are also rapidly changing in an evolving. Right. And that, but what's their through line? Is it just all some kind of communication? through line. Is it just all some kind of communication? Well, this is that's a thing like, like, so chat apps are becoming like,

yeah, what's that? Yeah, what's that? Yep. Are becoming very, very popular. Yeah. And this is a very different form of communication. It's like, it's social, sort of when you want it to be. Is that what peaches to? It's sort of, it's like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like,

and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, It has a quasi-comment on people's posts. There is, I think, a peach chat piece

of it that's coming, or that it maybe is in some beta versions of it. Oh, like Snapchat. Kind of a malgum of all these different. It's like a little bit of Snapchat, a little bit of Twitter, a little bit of Facebook, a little bit of... It almost seems it's also a little bit

of the Venmo news feed. Yes, it is, because there's all these, what's interesting about peaches that there are all these variables of behavior. You can say, like, this is the temperature where I am right now, or this is the sound level in the room where I listen to this song. Or like, here's a drawing, or like, here's a,

it's actually really interesting what you can do with it, because you get the form of the posts, or not fixed, whereas like Twitter, it's like a bunch of words in a link, or a picture, or a video, or whatever, and like, Vine is like a a video and Instagram's a picture Facebook is like freeform, but it's very limited

Yeah, you can do like it doesn't feel like you have any flexibility Whereas peach is very like Maliable and we're sure yeah much like snapch out of the snapchettes very fixed because it's so fixed I don't like images. Yeah. Well the funny thing about peach And maybe some other sort of little apps like this is that Remember on Silicon Valley I think it was in the first season where there or maybe the second season where the guy developed an app called like bro or something I don't want you like but they and the whole point of the app was just to say bro to each other

And that's all that like bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and these are I mean, there's a real things like yeah Yeah, yeah, no exactly it was before you I think no couldn't have been Definitely wasn't before you know, maybe not it was after any case I mean, I think that Facebook and Twitter will be dominant for a long time. Instagram will be dominant for a long time. But I think that generally speaking, the more Facebook tries to be a closed system, and the more Twitter tries to be a closed system, the less you get. And I think that, you know, I think that, you know, I think that, you know, I think that you're going to have to be a closed system. I think that, you know, I think that, you know, I think that, you know, I think that generally speaking, the more Facebook tries to be a closed system

and the more Twitter tries to be a closed system, the less useful it will be. And I mean, close-ups in the way that like, Facebook and Twitter now don't just want to be like a social network. Well, what they want is impossible. They want to be your everything. They do. Facebook would most like, I mean, based on their, based on their development of the product and their acquisitions, you would think a Facebook would most like to be the internet. In fact, some of the things that are doing in other countries suggest that they actually want to be like the proper internet for those for those countries. And I think that like, I think-

I would think that Facebook at this point, be investing in like how to bring internet to remote places. That's what they're doing. They have a pretty major project that they're doing that is exactly that. And they're also doing deals with carriers where they'll say, I mean, India just rejected this. That's actually what Mark and Jason was talking about. It's like, they're doing deals with carriers that say, hey, we'll give you free services,

but it's gotta be through Facebook essentially. And I think that Facebook wants to be the internet, but if you look at the tool that is probably the most useful and has had the largest impact on the way that we communicate in the digital age, that tool is Google and it is search. I think that what's interesting about search is that it's express purpose, Google's purpose. Now it has changed a little bit because there's been some land grabs in other areas, but the express purpose of search is to take you away from the thing that you're using. It's not to keep you inside of it.

They don't on you. It is an information-finding tool, right? It's like I need a thing how can I get to it here so you can get to it, right? And I think that what's like really, I mean I think it would be a very depressing future for us if we went to systems that were the goal of the system was to keep you inside of it. Yeah. Right. And I think it's a really dangerous place for us to be.

And I think it's humans. We don't. That is not our preference. Well, it's an interesting sort of duality to hold. And you're right at the same time, the idea that you want to keep someone in one place at the whole, you know, but also embrace like things like net neutrality or, you know, freedom of being able to wander around whatever you want.

It's like, you can use Google, but please don't leave this website never. Thank you. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that there's a real danger, but I think the danger is for a Facebook to pretend that it doesn't play in a really big ocean.

Because the reality is that I just think humans tend to gravitate towards open systems. Yes, absolutely. I don't mean that like, I don't mean people choose Linux over Windows. Right, but I think it's like degrees of open. But I think it's like degrees of open. But I think it's like degrees of open.

But I think it's like degrees of open. Someone doing something differently because they disagree with how else, or I found another way to build it, or I found a cheaper way, or a more fun way. I just think, yes, Snapchat works very, is in a very closed way because it's a very one-to-one, it's a very one-to-one experience right now.

Like increasingly Snapchat is finding ways to turn those one-to-one experiences into global experiences, right? With discover and with some of the live stuff that they're doing. So I think that like all of these systems get increasingly more social. And the idea of Facebook was to be this network

that would connect people around the world. And that's of Facebook was to be this network that would connect people around the world, and that's a really hugely utilitarian concept. It doesn't work when it goes backwards. I think that it's very difficult. And so with Twitter, they want to be, they're going to do this 10,000-word thing where you can publish posts or whatever. But it's like, everybody's competing for these. There's no interoperability. So if I write something on Medium, it lives on medium. If I write something on Twitter, it lives on Twitter, it's not Facebook, it lives on Facebook.

And I think there's like, our lack of, Apple's doing this too with Apple news. Oh yeah. This lack of interoperability between all these things is really damaging. And the idea that we're just gonna give up the open web for somebody's like kind of whack, whack, whack. Like, there are like kind of clothes, like half-ass system.

I will say, the Twitter, maybe it's Twitter moments, but I do actually sometimes go there and look at it. Really? Just to sort of see, mostly for like news, like highlights of things that happened while I was asleep, like basketball games or debates. What's the point of Twitter when you're getting an update on something that happened hours ago?

It's literally just for like recaps, not reca not recaps well. Yeah recaps of like games I feel gifts of of things Reading Twitter looking at Twitter moments is like reading a monthly magazine Which is like to me is it can be for the most part is okay like Most most of moments is weird and like a lot of internet stuff. They put a lot of like weird viral internet stuff in there like ninja cat gifts. But every once in a while there's something that sort of pools together, almost storeifies the budget. But it's usually shreds of videos and not really tweets.

Right, but I feel like there's very hard to get a sense of a narrative in that way. Yes, yeah. You're sort of like, oh, here are all these weird things. Well, you're beholden to whoever, whatever poor person is collecting all the tweets in the way. I think they have like an editorial team that does that. I know. I just don't know if they're doing it though. Curating.

Curator. Curator is very important in the future. I don't know if you heard. Maybe at the all you'll do, some curation. Curation. I think you should do that. I mean, really all editing is curation of one way or another. Sort of.

Sort of. Some. There, some curation involved. I feel like you're kind of a curator of words when you're really just like editing. Oh, wow, that's really poetic. Think about it. You're really just saying what words should go together. You're curating. Writing is just a way of curating sentences. It's true.

That's right. Paragraphs are a really like a curated set of sentences and so on and so forth when you think about it. Anyhow, I think it's a great place to leave it. This is in my vague and incorrect description of what I've not seen it either is. So this is really enjoyable. I think I got into some rambling at the end here. Yeah, definitely for sure. Core of our car.

I know that that's the whole point of this podcast. Let Josh Ramble. at the end here. It was unruly for sure. Core of our characters. I know that that's the whole point of this podcast. Let Josh Ramble. The whole point is can I find somebody who will just let me interrupt them and Ramble? And with you, I found somebody who could be a perfect target, perfect victim. I mean, yeah, this is really fun.

You have to come back and do it. You know what you do is like six months in. Yeah. You should come back and give me like, a six month seems like a really long time. No, six months seems like a reasonable, a little time. Yeah, sure. When do and give me like a six months seems like a really long time. No six months seems like a reasonable Yeah, sure when do you think you'll have one more will Sylvia's all? Yeah, I say let's give it like five or six months. Yeah, yeah, good. Yeah, you have to come back. You know update

I would love to everything anyhow. Thank you so much. Thank you, and I guess that's it. I guess we're done. All right So that is our show for this week. We'll back next week with more tomorrow, of course. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best. But I fear that in Trump's America, the very best will be the very worst. you