Tomorrow - Episode 46: Reversing Doom with Alexander Klöpping

Episode Date: March 28, 2016

The future of media. What is it? What does it look like? Are we living in it? Is it yet to come? Is it something you want? Is it something you need? Is it something we should fear? Is it something we should embrace? None of these questions can be answered, but Josh and his brilliant guest Alexander Klöpping — the CEO and founder of news-reading experience Blendle — make a valiant attempt. Along the way they also tackle Holland facts, terrorism, CDs, Gabber music, and the tyranny of podcast apps. If you miss this episode, everything they said about you will turn out to be true. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, and welcome to Tomorrow. I'm your host, Joshua Topolsky. Today on the podcast, we discuss the Dutch Donald Trump, compact discs, and Gabber. I don't want to waste one minute, so let's get right into it. My guest today is a former journalist and founder of a new app and a new idea really called Blendle. I'm of course talking about the famed Dutch individual known as Alexander Klopping. There you go, Josh. Is it Klopping? Yes.

How would you say it though? Klopping. Klopping. Klopping. Klopping. Klopping. It's a little bit like an I IKEA piece of furniture, I guess. Your name is like an IKEA piece of furniture?

Yes. Anyhow, Alexander, do people call you Alex, or do they just call you Alexander? You can call me Alex. You can call me Alex. Alex is, so he started this new app, which has been up and running for a while in Europe. Like, how long have you been doing? In Holland for two years. In Holland, just in Holland?

Just in Holland for two years, and then we launched in Germany in September of last year. Yeah. It's a real invasion. They're really taking over Europe. They're marching across Europe and occupying newsrooms. That sounds really great. Thank you for that. Blendle is, if you haven't checked, it's actually really cool.

Blendle is an app and a web experience. But the reason I said it was an idea is because it's actually a bigger idea, I feel like, than just those things. Like saying it's this one, like, oh, it's a thing you put on your phone. Yeah, but I mean, I was a journalist before. And there's a real issue that we need to solve. And that is that it's getting harder and harder to make money with great journalism. Real journalism, right. And sometimes it seems that, you know, only clickbait and listicles and Donald Trump stories get,

you know, are the thing what journalism is nowadays. Well, I'm sorry if those are the best stories. I'm sorry if those stories are empirically, provably better than the other stories. I should say, let me preface this before we get into the conversation. This is a lot to talk about. I am, I've had about two hours or three hours of sleep. My daughter, Zelda,

this is very personal. Now, hopefully by the time this is up, none of this will be true, but Zelda's in the hospital right now. She has pneumonia. She's getting better. She's doing well. But with the last few nights we've been in the hospital and I have not slept a lot. She's doing well. But with the last few nights we've been in the hospital, and I have not slept a lot. So weird things can happen is what I'm saying. To the listener right now, I want you to know that it could get weirder than normal,

which is pretty fucking weird. A sleep-deprived guy and a Dutch guy. Yeah. Well, this is going to be weird. Exactly. And we had a couple of drinks. But now you're on a roller coaster because you had some wine, and now you're drinking coffee. It's a good combo.

I had a whiskey, and now I'm having a vodka which is i think a bad combo but anyhow so but but the idea but blend the basic idea of blendl is that you're trying to build a system of allowing people to make to to find great publications and then instead of having to worry about you know instead of having to think about like do i subscribe to this or is this free or whatever you can just pay microropayments, small payments for each article that you read. So hypothetically, like I'm not a New York Times subscriber. I mean, I'm saying you're a person, you're not a New York Times subscriber, but you can

read the most relevant stuff from the New York Times and you're paying pennies on the dollar by comparison if you were paying for this full subscription. Yes. So, and I've been, so just launched in America in beta on, what, Monday, Tuesday? Wednesday. Wednesday, right. That's the day that I was trying to think of. And interestingly, Zelda got very sick on Wednesday.

I'm not saying there's a correlation between those two things. It is not, yeah. But I'm just saying that Blendle could be infecting people with some kind of virus. That's all. And so you have a limited number of publications now, big publishers, New York Times. Yeah, we're starting with about 20. The journalist part of it, the New York Times is, the Financial Times, The Economist, Time, Inc., big brands.

Right. I mean, no, no, they're not small, but it's limited. Yes. In terms of like you don't have every magazine. But our idea is, you know, right now, what is the place where you go to if you really just want the eight or ten pieces that are written today? Where do you go to get, you know, almost in a place of a little bit more quietness instead of Facebook and Twitter and all the noise there? Where do you go to just read those articles? And I don't really think there's a lot of things that you can try. Nuzzle, of course, is great.

And I guess you could hope to find stories on Twitter. Apple News. Sure. Facebook. There's aggregation services and there are social networks, but there's so much noise on all of them. Right. And what I want to do is figure out what the kind of stories is that our users read. You want less noise, more signal.

Yes. Which to me is like the big challenge at this point. I mean, it's not just about less noise, more signal, but also helping people. I think this is, and you guys do this, you have a newsletter, and you certainly are curating within the app. The curatorial process is really important because it's not just about like, can you cut out the noise? But it's also like, even amongst the signal that exists for a particular person, you want some stories, not every story.

There's going to be things that are really important to you and valuable to you and that are not going to necessarily, there's a bunch of stuff that isn't going to be necessarily that valuable or important. So I think you guys are working a lot on that. I mean, you're doing a lot with that. We hire editors. We have curators. Felix Salmon is curating for business. Oh, really?

There's a BBC. Felix is curating? I know. There's a BBC reporter doing politics. BBC? Doing US politics? Doing US politics. Is it a US-based BBC reporter? Yes. In the White House. Oh, okay. Pulitzer Prize winning. Oh, politics. Is it a U.S.-based BBC reporter? Yes. In the White House. Pulitzer Prize winning. Oh, okay.

That's kind of like it. So we try to get a range of people that you want to follow their journalism picks from. Right. And- They're not just randos. No, no, no. Right.

You wouldn't want to- And at the same time, you can follow randos if you want, whether they're your friends or not. So it's really, it's like a social network. A little bit. So I think there's- So it's a social network for news. Yeah, we try to bring... Sort of like Ping. For Ello.

We try to bring a couple of things together. It's your social feeds. It's curators that we invited based on topics that they're interested in and our own editors. So we employ editors that read all the newspapers and magazines every night for you so you don't have to do that and just pick the best stories. And then an algorithm on top of that filters those human-curated selections. So a machine is ultimately double-checking that your humans didn't screw up. And if you don't like sports stories, you wouldn't be bothered. Then I hope the machine picks up on my lack of interest in sports stories.

And supporting the journalism. That's my, then I hope the machine picks up on my lack of interest in sports stories. So here's- And supporting the journalism. That's also an important part, right? So it's part of it is curation and helping users find the stories that are most relevant for them at that moment. Yes. But also to support the journalism because in the end, that's an important- Even with money.

With money. Because that's a good thing about Spotify. I think 10 years ago, if you would have asked me, hey, Alexander, would you pay for music in your life? Right. I wouldn't think I would have answered the question with yes. You were not paying for music prior to Spotify. I've never bought a CD or, you know, music in my life. You've never bought a CD?

No. How old are you? 29. Oh, you're very young you're not that young no i'm not that young you've never purchased a what about a piece of vinyl no what about a cassette i have never bought a cassette do you know what a cassette is i do you're telling me you've never purchased an album no not even on itunes how old are you i'm 38 oh maybe that's the maybe this is exactly the gap here.

You think so? Yeah. But I feel like there's some middle ground in there. Yeah. I don't know anyone of my age who has bought CDs, honestly. Maybe it's a Dutch thing. I can't imagine. CDs, I kind of understand.

But I do feel like even as a kid. No, but as a kid. Well, vinyl, a lot of people I know collect vinyl. Yeah, I'm sure they collect it. I actually know a lot of people who are younger than me they collect vinyl sure really okay you're saying as a kid you never wanted like an album and had your parents buy you a cd no i just downloaded it with napster uh yeah i guess that kind of makes sense maybe you're just a terrible thief though that's also very true i mean it's possible that you are more of a thief than most people and now i'm making up for it by creating a company that getting people paid yeah i'm getting great journalism oh god paid for interesting you're

just paying it forward um okay let me ask you some questions so before this before blendle yes we're gonna talk about the name in a little bit yeah because it doesn't have a meaning it doesn't it's not like a i mean it's It's like a blend. Google is a weird name when you hear it first. It's a blend of dulls. It's like blending. Blending things. There's no meaning though. No. Deeper meaning. Like Spotify. Yes. Like Amazon. Maybe it has a deeper... Maybe I should come up with some

story that I can tell. Does Spotify have a deeper meaning than you don't? I don't think so. Does Amazon? Well, Amazon at least means something. Well, the word means something. It's a word. it's a thing um prior to blendl yes you were a journalist as tech journalist you were a technology journalist i miss i miss that so much do you yeah well write some tech stories yeah maybe you should okay tell me about your journalism career i was uh i think i when i was in university I started blogging for a Dutch website that was basically the equivalent of Business Insider.

It was called 9to5. Oh, that's pretty good. For people in the office. 9to5.nl. Still in business? For sure. And I remember the day that Lehman Brothers fell. And, you know, all the other, that was a bad day in 2008.

And I remember coming into the office seeing really huge font headlines on wallstreetjournal.com, which was the site that I, as a good blogger, copied. Sure. If you're in business blogging, you're going to want to check out the Wall Street Journal. At the time. It's your main source of information. They were very, very important. And I remember not knowing any of those names so i just started um you know googling that on wikipedia and then just writing

about it like i knew what the hell i was talking about so you were blogging so you were doing exactly what people would do if they were blogging so that's how i started and i think my boss at that at that that was your first day uh one of the first days. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah. I got into that. Trial by fire. Yeah. And I was also the only editor at the time. So it was a lot of weight on my shoulders. But anyway, so my boss there, he was also, he was a regular on a Dutch talk show.

It's like, I don't know what to compare it to in the United States, but it's a daily talk show at 7.30 and they talk about, you know, what's going on that day. And a lot of people watch that. In Holland, when you are on TV, like a big percentage of the country watches that. It's a news show? Yeah. They talk about the news of the day? Yeah.

At 7.30? Most of the time. How many people in the country watch it? I think about 2 million out of the 17. So it's... Pretty high percentage. It's pretty high percentage. Pretty well viewed.

Exactly. I mean, if you have a show in America, in the United States of America, that is two million people watch. That's nothing. No, no, very successful. Oh, okay. That would be a pretty successful show. Yeah, you guys have a lot of channels.

We also have a lot of people. Yes. But I mean, two million is still successful. Oh, okay. But that's like out of the 300 million where they have TVs. Yeah, exactly. Then this show is basically just looking at the Super Bowl. Yes.

Yeah. Every day. It was at the Super Bowl. Yes. Yeah. Every day. It was the Dutch Super Bowl. Exactly. So your boss was on the Dutch Super Bowl every day. And the first iPad would launch. So this is, what year is this? 2009? 2009.

I want to say 2009. 2010? I don't know. But anyway. My memory is very foggy. Again, very little sleep. It launched. And I had little sleep. It launched, but I had little sleep at that time too

because I was so happy that the iPad was coming out. I was like a real fanboy. Yeah. And I remember talking to the people at the show. I was coming with my boss, talking to the show, and I asked the people of the show, like,

what are you going to do with the iPad tomorrow? Because it's coming out. And they said they weren't going to do anything with it. So then I said, that's stupid. On the Super Bowl. Yeah, on the Super Bowl. This was the most important thing happening in my life. What's the name of the show? De Wereld Raid Door.

I'm sorry. De Wereld Raid Door. What does that translate to? The world keeps turning. Oh, so it's like as the world turns. Exactly. The soap opera from America. Maybe, yeah. Okay okay but then with me okay so anyhow so you said what do you mean you're not doing anything with the ipad so and then the next day i was on with a comedian and a woman who

presents a show that's called a farmer seeks wife which is a show about farmers that need women to date. It's like The Bachelor. It's one of the most popular shows in Holland, but it's with farmers instead of The Bachelor. Anyway, so she was there and the comedian was there and we talked about... Hold on, hold on. Are they like hot farmers?

Every, I think every season they have like one hot farmer, but it's like, it's a format. It's a format thing right now, I think, but it's really, it's a format. It's a format thing right now, I think. But it's really popular. They all have farms. Yes, they have farms. And what is a popular, like, what do people farm in?

Cows. A lot of cows. Are they for meat production? Meat production. Milk. Milk. So there's a set of farmers. Yes.

There's like five farmers. How many farmers? Like six or seven. Six or seven farmers. And they're like all competing for one woman? No, no, no. There's a set, a large group of women as well. No, no, no.

So at first they introduce themselves and then the women of Holland are supposed to write letters, love letters to these farmers. And they get like bags of mail because apparently a lot of women, they want the rural life, right? This is a popular show. This is like three, three million. It's even more than the Superbowl. More popular than the Superbowl.

Yeah. Yeah. It's called Farmer Meets Woman. Yeah. Farmer Meets Wife. Farmer Meets Wife. And are there any gay farmers? There are gay farmers, for sure.

So sometimes it's a man? Or a woman, yeah. I mean, a man or a woman meeting a man or a woman. It's Holland. So the name doesn't really apply in that situation. Yeah. That's a good... It's strange because you guys are supposed to be very politically correct, right?

I only remember one woman farmer, and she was gay. So then it's still, you know... Okay, that still works. The title still's still, you know, then it's, the title still works. They were like, we can't do any gay men because we'd have to change the title of the show.

That would be bad. Okay. So anyhow, so you're on with one of the hosts of that show? Yeah. I don't know why. Is there like a,

is there like a, like a panel of hosts or something? No, it's just, these are just people that visit the show and there's one host.

Okay. Matthijs van Nieuwkerk. What's a typical episode of this show? Like what happens? It's just, they split it up in three segments and they talk about the the thing that the things that happened that day just like that happened to the farm well if if there is a if the farmers show is on they will definitely invite all the farmers on that show and they will be one of the best watched i meant on the farmer show i didn't mean

on the oh sorry as the world turns no so so that's just a bunch of farmers yes and and and the women and the women so like the first episode they're like oh we got they're like here's the farmers the second episode is like oh we got all this mail after we introduced them exactly third episode is like here are the women that we chose and then they're gonna date and then they go through all the dating really awkward because the and they end with a marriage proposal sometimes yeah so getting back to the world keeps turning so I went on there and I started doing that

so that's when that started and then all of a sudden in Holland I came to that show more often and often you were like the tech correspondent yeah exactly talking about iPads is that all they ask you about so what's new in the iPads. Okay. Is that all they ask you about? Yeah, only iPad.

So what's new in the iPad? Exactly. Yeah. And drones, of course. You need to talk about drones. No, but I think the last time was on the Apple FBI case. And it's cool because I can bring that story to you. So you still do that stuff?

Yeah, once a month or something like that. But you don't write about, you don't cover technology? Not anymore. Not anymore. Because all your attention is on Blunt. Yes. But at the time I wrote for a couple of Dutch newspapers and I could bring tech to a broader audience,

which is fun. Right. I know the feeling. Yeah, exactly. And we did one of the cool things about, it's from Dutch public broadcasting, and one of the cool things that we got to do, we got a documentary series on Silicon Valley

that I could make and stuff comes out of that. Being on TV is so awesome because it opens so many doors for stuff that you want to do. Sure. Like if you want to create an app for reading news and making micropayments. But if you do that in a small country, there's so much stuff that you can do. You only just have to think of it what you want to do. Would you say that Blendle is Spotify for news news uh well not in not in the model of course because we don't do a flat fee you pay per story right but if you think about that journalism needs

a platform that's really something i do believe in i think the reason people pay for spotify is not that they x they have access to music that's not the reason why you pay you have access to music everywhere like youtube or whatever the reason why you pay. You have access to music everywhere, like YouTube or whatever. The reason why people pay for Spotify is because your friends are there, because it helps you find music that's right for you with Discover and Playlist and your friends. And it has an offline listening experience.

The app is really great. But don't you think the core piece is that that's where the stuff is? I mean, for me, it's like, here's the thing about Spotify. It's like $10 a month and i can listen to all the music i want and never have to think about paying for it right yeah so in that sense and i don't think you're i think you're right that it's not like because you're not like a flat fee thing but there is something to the idea that hypothetically it's like all the news that you would have to pay for but you don't have to

pay for it the way you traditionally i mean you don for, but you don't have to pay for it the way you traditionally. I mean, you don't make a, you don't have to subscribe to the New York Times to read a story on the New York Times. Yeah, and I think a lot of people don't want to particularly subscribe to a newspaper or magazine. Like, I don't know any young people that have a subscription to a newspaper. Yeah, but then again, you don't know anybody who buys vinyl or CDs. Maybe I have really weird friends. Yeah, maybe you do. Yeah.

No, I mean, I don't think you have weird friends. I think you probably have pretty normal friends i do think it's odd that even in your childhood you never like had bought a single album or even like a cd single copied copied cds that happened i'm trying to think i guess i mean i guess you know honestly my timeline if you really think about it let's see so you were like uh 10 years ago would probably just change like three years after. Like if I was three years younger. When you were nine years old. Yes.

The year was? 1996? Yeah. Definitely CDs were still being sold quite a bit. Yeah, for sure they were being sold, but I just copied them. Were you on Napster when you were nine, 10? Well, a little bit older, but yeah. You didn't listen to music as a child? Yeah, but I don't know.

What was that? What were you listening to? Yeah, but I think my parents used to listen to cassettes. But we didn't buy the cassettes. They were on LimeWire. My parents downloaded on LimeWire. Put them on cassettes. Are your parents tech savvy? No. Okay. So anyhow, so Blendle. So here's the thing.

I mean, who are you competing with? Who do you think you're competing with? I'm just curious. In the end, it's bad free journalism. In the end, it's about just people rather reading stupid hot takes than a real good piece of journalism. It doesn't have to be long. I'm not saying that journalism needs to be just New Yorker pieces of 20,000 articles. What I mean is that...

Oh, I would agree with you. Yeah. What I mean is just like an economist article can be really, really good. It's so dense with information and it can be really good. And that kind of articles, I'd like more people to appreciate. Even a short economist article, say if, you price it at, say, something like 59 cents, it could be worth it. Even a 250 word. I think.

I'm making fun of you. Maybe that's a little bit expensive. There are short economist articles. Yes. Who sets the pricing? Publishers. Publishers suggest pricing. Yeah.

Okay. So the economist is like, we think our 500-word article is worth 59 cents. The Economist is really good at making things shorter, and they think the shorter the better, because then they can save time. It's a higher value. The New York Times, like a typical New York... What's a...

So, like a feature story in The New York Times. I think they're 19 cents. They're all 19 cents. No matter the length? Yeah. So it's just 19 cents across the board. Yeah. Is that true of every publication?

No, no, no. Sometimes longer stories are more expensive. Sometimes shorter stories are cheaper. You know, the pricing, what people are willing to pay on a per article

level, like we're going to figure that out, right? We don't know yet. That's one of the most exciting things. But you have users in Holland, but maybe

they're different. I don't know. Well, they are different. Maybe. They have Farmer Meets Wife. That's true. You should have that show. As entertainment. It's a good show. Well, we have The Bachelor, which sounds like almost the same idea.

We did have a farmer recently on The Bachelor. Very boring. The farmer was boring? Very boring. Are your farmers more exciting? Yeah, but they're also quite boring, but that's the whole point of the show, that they're undateable. Oh, really?

Yeah. Oh, they're like horrible. Most of them are pretty weird. Like they only eat food from cans and that kind of stuff. Oh, so they're like survivalists? I wouldn't say survivalists, but just people who don't have women around them.

All right, you know, I want to take a quick break. Okay. Right now. This is what happens in the middle and sometimes during the show and towards the middle. This is a sponsored by people. This went very fluid, this bridge to your sponsor. That's how I do it.

It's wonderful. Isn't it? It's just like you barely even know it's happening. Wow. So this is what happens because people aren't paying, making microp the podcast i mean i don't know something we should talk about actually i should say we should talk about i'd be very very poor if people were making micro payments on this podcast there'd be a micro amount of those payments so we're gonna take a break uh there's some words from our sponsor and then we'll be back with alexander how do you say it again

clopping clipping clipping clipping clipping clipping clipping clopping And then we're back with Alexander. How do you say it again? Clopping. Flipping. Flipping. Flipping. Flipping. Flipping. Flipping. Clopping. This episode is brought to you by Automatic. Chances are your car hasn't fully kept up with technology. That's where Automatic comes in. It's a small adapter that turns any car into a connected car. Just plug the Automatic into the same port your mechanic uses to diagnose engine problems,

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Go to harrys.com right now, H-A-R-R-Y-S.com and enter code Joshua at checkout. Do it for yourself. Do it for your face. All right, we're back with Alexander Kloppen. We just had a suggestion from Paul, the engineer here of the show. Paul suggested that he wanted us to ask, he wanted me to ask about if anybody's working on an app to identify terrorists. And I said, how would it identify terrorists?

Because he was talking about Europe, you know, terrorism in Europe. Yeah, so common in Europe. We just had these terrible attacks in Brussels. Well, it's getting more common. Come on. More people die here from firearms. Obviously. Clearly.

There's way more people getting shot for no reason in America. Let's not argue logic like that. Let's focus on the salacious and exciting idea that every person currently living in Europe is at high threat level for a terrorist attack. We're so scared of it. Anyhow, so he suggested that the app would just would um identify terrorists by intuition i think paul's been smoking weed i don't know i don't know if he even does i gotta say based on the tapestries in here i'm gonna say yes straight he's straight edge he says okay okay um so anyhow so we were talking we were talking about blendl a little bit uh, hold on a second. I'm getting text messages here,

making sure that everything's cool with my kid. Everything's cool. Sorry. This is a very serious, very somber, very intense. It's fine tomorrow. Um, so I want, just want to talk about blend a little bit. Like, I just want to talk about its place in the market because I think, I mean, you're, you're in a very think you're in a very tough position because the reality is that what it seems like is that people don't want... I mean, it's a good example. You're thinking about how you never paid money for music.

You grew up with the idea that music is free. It's naturally like you should not pay for it. It's a thing that's out there that you can grab whenever you want. Exactly. So then Spotify comes along and now you pay for Spotify. Yeah. Right? Like it's a thing that's out there you can grab whenever you want. Exactly. Right? So then Spotify comes along and now you pay for Spotify. Yes. One of your reasons for paying for Spotify isn't convenience?

Sure. Like because my probably number one reason for using Spotify or a streaming app, and I subscribe to several, of course, because I'm a sick person with a problem, is that yes, I could steal all the music I want. It's easy to steal it. Actually, I'm sorry. Let me back up. Yes, I could steal the music I want.

I know how to steal it. It is a pain in the ass. I mean, it's a lot of work to steal music. Yeah. And, you know, there's like always questions of quality and sourcing and blah blah you're hunting around for album art and shit like that there is to me like with spotify it was like with spotify and you know whatever the first i think ardeo was actually the first streaming app

that i subscribed to it was like oh this is great like i don't i can listen to every piece of new music and i don't have to think about it and i don't have to go steal it and it's a pretty nominal sure but i think axis is one of them but discovery is like if if if spotify would just be a search interface and just playlists i wouldn't pay 10 bucks a month for it like recommendations for me are essential to pay to pay so what do you mean like this you mean like their discover feature for for discover weekly for example i mean very good i wouldn't i don't want to honestly i don't want to live without it anymore but isn't but isn't for example,

I mean, I wouldn't, I don't want to, honestly, I don't want to live without it anymore. But isn't, but isn't, I mean, but there are other means of discovery for music.

Sure, sure, sure. But the fact that it's on one platform, the fact that I only, it's convenient. It's all integrated. All integrated,

all in one app. And it's a nice experience. It's like, it's good enough to pay the 10 bucks. Right. Okay. So, so then I guess my question is,

so first off. Why would people do this for journalism? Well, there's a couple of things. And I'm not saying that you have to draw a parallel between these two things, but I'm trying to figure out this challenge because I think it's a challenge everybody in media is trying to figure out, which is like, okay, journalism is expensive. You can make it cheaper by degrees like you can, but it's not like a cheap thing to do. You need people.

You need editors for those people. You need people who can find a story in video, find a story in photos, tell a story through data. And they need time. And they need time. Right. And it's, and they need places to work. They need to be able to go places and work. And like, it's actually very hard. Like when you've talked to people who are in, and I've done this a lot lately, you talk to people who are in the world of like sort of the tech world or the app world or the startup world and you talk about content creation versus like the way you get the content most people get their content now like they see it through

facebook or twitter or you know email is still a very popular way there's a lot of newsletters right now but the feeling of where that content comes from is not like you don't think about the mechanism right just the way you don't think about didn't artists get paid for this song or this album that I stole? Like, you're not like, oh, you know, I'm going to bootleg the new Kanye. Like, you're not like, I hope Kanye gets paid.

You're like, I'm sure he's fine. You're not thinking about it. Yeah. Kanye, I mean, he's 53 million in debt, but I'm also sure he's fine. But you might as well read the whole take instead of the original article, for example. It's like, it's also very-

Well, like, but this is get to media. It's like even less, but like music is this thing that people love, right? People are like, oh, this is the soundtrack to my life. Or this, you know, I cry every time I hear this song or whatever. Journalism rarely evokes in a large group of people, rarely. I'm not saying that it isn't powerful. I think it's one of the most powerful things in the world obviously maybe not to make you cry but at the same at the same time it has a life-changing impact but what i'm saying is that people don't associate it the way they the way they're like this is my favorite pop song like the pop song for journalism is a listicle right like like you know what i mean like and and and that's why people don't pay for

and you know a lot of journalism a lot of journalism is like, you know, the Genesis record, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. It's like a prog, a triple, it's like a triple LP prog rock record. It's really good. I mean, if you're into that kind of music, if you're into that kind of music, but like, you know, most people aren't going to listen to it.

But the funny thing is we already have experience now from Holland where the market is honestly not that different. The news or the journalism is being made by a bunch of organizations. Some put it on the web free. Some put it behind paywalls. Some do ad support. I mean, there's this whole range of places where it's coming from. It's less so than in the United States for sure.

Right. But in the way it's paid, in the way people consume journalism, it's not that different. Now, so we have two years of experience now with what kind of content will people actually pay for. And when you look at it, it's not the news. The news people don't pay for that. Like breaking news. Yeah, or just what happened today, basically.

That kind of stuff, what is a big percentage of what you actually read is that. Now, the things that people are willing to pay for is stories that are a little bit, that are more in-depth, that explain more about the world, that don't tell you the what, but tell you the why. The stories that most journalists

would actually be proud of. When you ask them, what is a story that you're really proud of? I think it pretty much aligns with what people are willing to pay for. Now, we've seen in Holland, like when you would have asked someone in Holland two years ago, hey, people are willing to pay for now we've seen in holland like when you when you would have asked someone in holland two years ago hey would you like to pay for journalism of course everyone is going to say no because right now it's for free why would i pay

for it right but at the same time apparently we struck a chord in making a system that's so nice to use um in a in a world where young people do not like taking subscriptions, in a world where young people install ad blockers like it's the most logical thing to do. Yeah. Well, it is for the most part. For sure. Unfortunately, the reality is ad blockers are illogical because ads are basically all terrible.

Yes. Not all of them, but most of them. A lot of them. Yeah. And at the same time, a lot of people are yearning for smart journalism. I agree. I couldn't agree with you more on that topic. And against all odds, we amassed more than 650,000 registered users, of about which 20% actually pay.

And most of them are young. Most of them are under 35. Really? And that's under 35. Really? And that's in Holland. Really? Yeah. So several hundred thousand people pay money. Pay money, and against all odds, in very small amounts,

and still make up for a decent amount every year. Right. You're not profitable yet. No, no, no. I hire way too many people to be profitable. Well, that's what you do to start out. So, and it's,

and the first signs in Holland are so, like, if we can replicate Holland in the United States, that's massive. Well, if. That's massive. That's a big if, though.

For sure. But, I mean, we now have the backing. You've got more people. There's more people. We have the backing of some of the most prolific publishers in the country,

which is amazing. Right. And respected. Yeah. And this experiment hasn't been tried on the scale that we're trying to do it right now. And what we do is not, like, I don't see what we do right now as a finished product, whatever.

This is the first step. What happens if you take all the best journalism that's being made in this country, put it on one platform with one login with a really easy way to find the content that's most relevant for you the stuff that maybe will make you cry or laugh yeah and you make it super simple to support it and if you didn't like it you ask for your money back that's one of the things we do if you buy an article this is actually very i actually very cool. If I read an article and I think it sucks, no matter what, is there a time limit?

24 hours. But if I read an article and I'm like, I feel like I got ripped off for this. You just ask for your money back. There's no transaction. I don't have to talk to somebody. You just basically give me the money back. And if you close an article within a shorter amount that you could have possibly

read it, we give you your money back anyway. What if a person signs up and they just refund everything they read? At some point. At some point where you go like, okay, we think that you're bullshitting us. The functionality disappears. That's it. You're like, actually. You're just paying them.

Yeah. But it's actually something that we came up with on a Friday afternoon, thinking like we should be able to, we should do the refund thing. Because on the web, if you buy shoes, you can send it back and get your money back. Why the fuck wouldn't that happen with articles? I agree. So we started thinking of this on a Friday. We implemented it over the weekend.

We started testing it on a Monday and it showed really good results. Not a lot of people was using it. Right. Money more people buying articles. But you also get data about what stuff is really valuable and what isn't. Right? Because the reality is the stuff that people don't ask for a refund back on typically

is going to resonate. That's a good sign. And at the same time, we get a lot of articles that get a lot of refunds. And most of the time, that's correlated with the quality of the article. So it's such a great metric, actually. And when you think as a journalist, if you're writing a story

and people ask for your money back, that's bad. And, you know, in the end, what you see is trending on Blendle, stories that do very well on Blendle, are not the stories that become most popular on most websites. These are, like, it's a story on the migrant crisis in Europe. It's deeper. It's more meaningful. It's more researched. it's more reported. Exactly, and just the best stuff. And I feel like sometimes ads,

if journalism just is supported by ads, I feel the incentive is wrong. I feel that it's just about eyeballs. It's just about- So I hear you, but my argument is that the general public doesn't believe- It hasn't been tried. No one has done this before.

It doesn't deserve to be supported monetarily, but the general public has been trained to believe the way you were trained to believe that music was free. And still I pay for music now. And this is my point. I think the problem is that we don't have the same kind of affection for journalism

that we have for music. It's not considered... Well, it's not considered... I don't think so. I think not for everyone. Well, I do. Right, not for everyone. Not for everyone. That fine there's most of the people in history didn't have a newspaper i mean people well that's true the circulation the circulation of of most

publications historically has been dramatically low by comparison to what the internet provides and most people like to shit read shit anyway so i'm not i'm not talking about these people i'm talking about people who are, who want, who want to be, who want to become smarter every day. Right. Those people I want to target.

Great tagline. Become smarter every day. Every day. That's something not quite working about it. Be smarter. It's a little bit cheesy. Be smarter every day.

It's very cheesy. We're off to workshop this. Yeah. So, and there's people, those people I'm targeting and, and, you know, you say like, yeah, people are not used to paying. No, they're not to workshop this. Yeah. So, and there's people, those people I'm targeting and, and,

you know, you say like, yeah, people are not used to paying. No, they're not used to paying. That's for sure. Well,

this is, so this gets into my next. That's exactly the problem that we're trying to solve. Right. Which is like, it's not a small problem. No,

and I think. If you could solve that, it would solve like the entirety of the media business. So I'm, and what I'm saying is that we, it's just a small thing you're working on.

I know. Sometimes I feel like. Fixing all, fixing all publishers problems. I, I honestly, I could decide to work on everything. And I think this is one of the most pressing issues that,

that, that need to be solved. You could be curing a disease right now. Yeah. Maybe I'm, yeah. You'd be working on pneumonia, pneumonia cure.

Okay, fine. Global warming. Yeah. Okay. But here's my, okay but here's my next challenge. And I think if any company is in a position to try stuff,

experiment with things, to come up with a solution that at least partly changes the situation from where it is right now, namely in a situation where more and more journalism is getting paid by ads and where less and less money is being made with that and ad blockers are being installed

all over the place. I mean, it's quite a dire situation where journalism is in. No, it's very dire time. And if there's any company that is in a position to change a little bit about that next to all the big technology companies, obviously, but who are also just focused on ads. Right. I think it's us, honestly.

There's a lot of... Very egotistical of you. No, but you have to be egotistical. How else could you do this? Yeah, and I think it's a goal that's important enough to try it and to keep trying. So what we do right now doesn't have to be the same in a year.

It's even... If we do the same thing in a year, we would have failed. This is the whole point of this, is to figure out, all right, what kind of people pay for what kind of stuff under what kinds of circumstances? That's what I want to figure out.

Okay, so here's my next challenge to you. So I like the app a lot. I mean, I actually think, I mean, I will say I really think it's a good idea and I like a lot of the execution. I don't love all of it. will say, I really think it's a good idea. And I like the execute, a lot of the execution. I don't love all of it. In fact, there's, we talked about it a little bit before, but I will say that we were talking before, we actually had a drink before this podcast and some food.

What did you have? Pulled pork sandwich. It was good. I didn't have any of those. Um, the present, the presentation stuff that I would personally, I'm like, well, I would do this differently or whatever, but here's my big question. I would personally, I'm like, well, I would do this differently or whatever. But here's my big question.

You are, hold on a second. Sorry, I'm getting a text message. It's about Robert De Niro being into, he doesn't believe in vaccinations apparently. Okay. It has nothing to do with my child. America. That's what's going on. Everybody gets vaccinated in the Netherlands.

Yes. Nobody's like, you can't be like, no, I'm sorry, my kid doesn't get vaccinated. I think there's a couple of- They'll put you in jail if you do that, right? No, but there's a couple of weirdos. Sorry. Okay. Getting back on track. I read my news and a lot of people do this.

Now, look, I read a bunch of stuff. I'm a weirdo. But most people read their news, Facebook, Twitter. Like I said, I said this before. So how does Blendle, like you're over here with your app and your web experience. How does Blendle, like you don't post stuff on Facebook. You're not like, read this or do you? I don't know. How does Blendle work its way into the fabric of like the social experience? Because right now, I mean, yes, I get that like you've got this like specialized focus group of consumers who are like, okay, this is what I do. I want news over here and

I want it this way and I'm going to pay for it. But like ultimately this really works, right? If somehow it intersects with like my daily reading habit is I'm on Facebook and I'm flip, you know, not that that's my main place, but Twitter would be a place I'd say I read news. I mean, I get a lot of news and I read a lot of news stories because of Twitter. I'd say probably predominantly Twitter. I find a lot of stuff on Pocket. I have feeds I read in Feedly. How does Blendle become part of my daily habit?

We basically take out all the work finding the stories. Because right now you you look at a twitter feed and it just scrolls by and maybe there's a good article yeah but i'm on twitter yeah sure but you're there yeah but you're spending time there and and i mean if you want to do that you can right but my point is we try to save that time for you and also find articles that you maybe wouldn't have fine found because you had to spend more even time on Twitter. So to people who are on Twitter... You don't feel like you need to be there as well. Oh, for sure, for sure, for sure. Because if you have a great story

you want to share it, for sure. And that's something that happens a lot. And you see Blendl as a mechanism for sharing as well. I'm just trying to say that like... So if I share a story from Blendl to Facebook, does it take me back to Blendl?

Yeah, and if you have an account, the money automatically gets subtracted from your So if I share a story from Blendle to Facebook, does it take me back to Blendle? Yeah. And if you have an account, the money automatically gets subtracted from your wallet. Really? Yeah. So if I'm reading on Facebook and I see something that was shared from Blendle, I go back to it and I get charged and I'm reading the article. Yeah, for sure. And it's pretty frictionless. Maybe too frictionless.

Good thing you got the refund. You could always get a refund, Josh. It's no problem. I know. It's super nice. But I want to be where people are for sure. But at the same time, I think we can save a lot of time by helping people discover articles that they are most interested in, even for people who do not like Twitter because there's just too much information on it.

Or for people who are on Twitter and are still you know are you really finding the 8 or 10 I truly believe for everyone that there are 8 or 10 stories every day that you would be really missing out on if you haven't read them the day after these are high you're talking about like things

that are going to be really meaningful to you not like the same 8 stories but to me there's 8 or 10 stories every day. Yes, exactly. And I want you to find those stories, and I want you to support the journalists. So would you ever, would you,

have you considered, I mean, you mentioned Nuzzle before. Nuzzle's great. Which does this thing where it basically says, oh, here's your friends on Twitter. Yeah. Here's what everybody's sharing. Hey, a bunch of your friends shared this story.

You should probably check it out. Would you incorporate that kind of stuff into? It already is. So your friend, if you're- See, I haven't used it that much. If a lot of friends- Only a that much. If a lot of friends- Only a little bit.

If a lot of your friends share a specific story, that's a great sign that you probably will like it. Right. So our algorithm services it in the timeline. So wait, can I auth with Twitter? And then it'll show me what people are sharing on Twitter. And it'll say this is in the- And it's not crazy that you haven't seen it yet

because the app is live for two days. So the network is- And admittedly, and then for like at least, no, literally on wednesday i used it the beta during the day and then zelda got sick and i've been i i actually was going to tweet today i here's here's how out of it so first off gary shanley died apparently which is very sad do you know who gary shanley is i've heard about it yesterday you've heard you but you don't know who gary shanley is you've never seen any of his work. No. Because you live in- Holland. In another country. We have our own comedians.

Yeah. So, sure you do. So, but anyhow, but like, you know, it's one of these things where I couldn't even, I wasn't even on Twitter. I was like contemplated tweeting about how I wasn't on Twitter and then I was like, I'm too distracted-

Too made up. To do this, you know? But so, so I get totally, I lost my train of thought here. What was the point of saying this? You were talking about the comedian. Oh, you were saying like, I haven't used it that much, which is why I haven't seen this feature. So you do have like a nuzzle-like feature.

Yeah. That is not dependent on what people are doing within Blendle though. Yeah, that's limited to the sources that we have on Blendle. So it's what people are sharing on Blendle or liking or whatever. Or on Twitter. Okay, so I'm saying like if I'm – But it's limited to the sources that are available in Blendle. No, but I'm saying like so if 100,000 – 10,000 people – okay, that's not a good – if a bunch of my friends who – can I auth with Twitter in Blendle?

I don't know. Okay, fine. So I auth with Twitter in Blendle and a bunch of my Twitter friends share a story from the new york times it shows up and blend will be like hey this is a story that a bunch of friends are sharing okay all right good well that makes sense so i'm just what i'm trying to figure out is like at what point does it intersect with the place where we all are at because like one of the things that's fine is like look i have a feed reader that because i'm an you know nerd that has a news person like we all like have our rss feeds rss feeds are not the thing anymore like people aren't like oh let me go and it's not hip anymore you know like a news person. We all have our RSS feeds. RSS feeds are not the thing anymore.

People aren't like, oh, let me go and... It's not hip anymore. A 19-year-old kid is not like, oh, let me put my RSS feed together. They find the shit elsewhere. So I'm saying you have to be blendable. It has to be elsewhere. Yeah, and if you read a great story in the Wall Street Journal, then you can share that story on Facebook and Twitter.

Your friends who then click on that story have to pay for the story. And the thing is, you know, this is something that you can talk about. But really until the moment that you experience how easy it is to pay for it and how painless it feels, that is really the moment that it started to click with me. It is very painless. But I haven't, I've yet to put a credit card in. So you give people $250. Just let me be clear. Like you sign up. You, I've yet to put a credit card in. So. Well, we. We give people 250. Yeah. Just to maybe be clear, like you sign up.

You get some free money. Put your email. Like a good drugs dealer. You put $2.50 in your account. Yeah. So then you start. And then when you're done with the 250, I have not gotten there yet. If you're done with the 250.

You're like, hey, do you want to get more? Yeah. We give you extra free money and it's a whole thing. And we get about. So if I put a credit card in, you'll give me like five bucks or something. So. How much do you give me? 250. Another 250. So it'd be five total. And we get about- So if I put a credit card in, you'll give me like five bucks or something. So how much do you give me? 250.

Another 250. Again. So it'd be five total. Free money. Okay. And about one- Not really. Free money.

It's like when you sign up for the, I forget it. Go ahead. One in five people actually then puts in their credit card. So it's actually good- That's your stats from Holland. Yes. That's a pretty good conversion.

This is a good segue. To what? Well, you wanted to ask me when we had a bite earlier. You said you wanted to ask me Holland facts. You wanted to know what I knew about Holland. I'm curious what you know about Holland. Here's what I know. So first off, Holland is...

Oh, God. Do you know... Holland is a country. Yes. That's one thing I know. That's true. But people also, the Netherlands is part of Holland or it's another name for Holland? Holland is part of the Netherlands.

Part of the Netherlands. What else is inclusive in the Netherlands? Other provinces. Such as? Such as Groningen and Brabant. Those aren't countries though. No, they're provinces like states. But is Holland a country?

Holland is a bunch of provinces. The Netherlands is the country. Yes. Okay, just to be clear. Yes. I just want to get straight on this. And we also have islands, like in the Caribbean. Whatever, we all have islands.

Okay, let's move on. Okay. Here's what I'll say now. That's why you say the Royal Kingdom of the Netherlands. I don't say that, but... You should. Respectfully. Respectfully. We don't say that, but... You should. Respectfully. So weed is legal in Amsterdam.

Yes, everywhere. Not only in Amsterdam. All over the Netherlands. For sure. It's actually not legal. It's just not forbidden, which is a very big difference. It's not criminalized. Yes.

It's decriminalized. Yes. So it's legal to buy it. It's legal to smoke it. Yes. I've just recited the line from Pulp Fiction now. Oh, okay. It's legal to buy it. It's legal to smoke it. Yes. I've just recited the line from Pulp Fiction now. Oh, okay. It's legal to buy it.

See, I'm missing out on... If they stop you, it's illegal for them to search you. They can't ask you if you have weed on you. I don't think so, no. That would be weird. All right. And you call a quarter pounder with cheese a royale with cheese. In France. but sure.

Yes. What the fuck do you know about Holland? Seriously, what do you know about Holland? I'm honestly curious. I'm getting three hours of sleep. The Dutch people know everything about the United States. Well, it's because the United States is the greatest country in the world. Oh, my God.

I'm sorry. Oh, my God. It just happens to be. This is. This is the greatest country in the world, in the free world. Okay. We have health care. Okay. We have healthcare. Okay, you have free healthcare.

I know that. You have socialized healthcare. What is the ruling party? Education. The ruling party is. We have roads. Why are your airports so bad? Tell me about the airports.

Why are your airports so bad? It's like a developing nation. But why? Our airports are like a nation unto themselves that's still getting their running water together. It's a metaphor for me because the airports are so bad and then the lounges are beautiful. Because they're privately owned. It's like a class society.

Well, we're very class-based here. It's people who have money and then everybody else. Exactly. And people who have money get nice things and everybody else is like swimming in a sea of feces. All right.

Moving on. No, no. Hold on. I like this now because you're getting very angry about America. I don't want to blow Blendel's chances in America by having you say something horribly un-American or anti-American rather. You wouldn't be un-American. Anyhow, so we're getting back to what I know about your country.

Prostitution legal all over or just in Amsterdam? No, all over. So everywhere. Because you only hear about the red light district in Amsterdam. Yeah, I mean, they're concentrated places. But you're saying that I could go to some small village in the Netherlands and there's also legal prostitution there. Yeah.

Okay. It's the same here, but it's just illegal. The ruling party is, what do they lean? Are they liberal? Are they conservative? Right now, it's just illegal. The ruling party is, what do they lean? Are they liberal? Are they conservative? Right now, it's a combination between, it's really, like, the government right now is a combination between the right-wing party and the left-wing party. It's like the Democrats and Republicans together form a government.

That's a single ruling party. No, no, no. It's like it's a parliament, so they have to- But I'm saying, but you've got a prime minister? Yes. And your prime minister is what part of what party? He is, he is the right, he's the right leaning guy. Right wing, conservative.

But he's in a government with the left people. Explain to me what conservative means in the Netherlands. I think it- Like, it's not like, he's not pro-guns. No. Anti-gun. For sure. Anti-gun.

I'd say conservative- Is he pro-life? Is he pro-life? He's against abortion? No. No. Anti-gun. I'd say conservative. Is he pro-life? Is he pro-life? He's against abortion? No. No. Okay. Is he very religious?

No. Is he for eliminating taxes? Yes. Yes. So that's right. Eliminating taxes for the wealthy? It's very economical. Yes.

But not for the... For everyone. For everybody. Taxes need to come down. He wants to get rid of taxes altogether. Smaller government. Smaller government. That's the... For everyone. For everybody. Taxes need to come down. He wants to get rid of taxes altogether. Smaller government. Smaller government. That's the same.

But religious stuff is just not part of it. There's religious parties. What about social? What is he... Would your prime minister say, I'm against people of the same sex being able to marry? No. It's very...

But liberal in Holland... So it's about money. It's about money. But liberal in Holland means right wing. What? I know. This is... That doesn't make any sense. I know. but liberal in Holland so it's about money but liberal in Holland means right wing what? I know this is that doesn't make any sense I know

so you're saying the liberal people in Holland would be for anti-abortion pro-gun but they're right wing but they're right wing doesn't mean

what does right wing mean then? it doesn't mean anti-abortion I understand this I'm not saying this I'm not saying this because I'm stupid but I'm making a point to say

that when we say conservative in this country, it's all these things about how we live and the rights of our people. But it's intertwined with religion. Yeah, and religion and all kinds of other shit. But it's driven by special interest groups and a lot of money from large corporations and from large donors, from large religious organizations. But when you say conservative, you mean fiscally conservative. Yeah, exactly.

Which is somewhat true of our conservative party as well, the Republicans. Yeah. What do you mean when you say the liberals are... It's just the word that we use for liberals. Yeah. But we have... What do you mean when you say the liberals are... It's just the word that we use for Liberalen, liberals. Yeah. That's, that means, in Holland, that's, that means the right wing, the right wing party that we have, the Freedom Party. It's called...

It's called the Freedom Party? Yes. The Party for Freedom and Democracy. Okay. That's the right wing party. And then what's the left wing? The party of the people that work. The working people's party.

Socialists, definitely. But we also have our own Donald Trump. You do? Yeah. He's called Geert Wilders. Geert Wilders. Can you spell that? In Dutch or in English? In English. G-E-E-R-T. Wait, G-E-E-R-T.

Geert. Oh, GeertE-E-R-T. Mm-hmm. R-T. Geert. Oh, Geert. Geert. Geert. Geert. Geert. Wilders.

W-I-L-D-E-R-S. Oh, yeah. Just the way it sounds. Geert Wilders. Geert Wilders. There you go. Yeah. And he really, when he tweets.

He's Donald Trump of the Netherlands. For sure. And he was there first. I want to mention that. He predates Donald Trump. For sure he predates Donald And he was there first. I want to mention that. He predates Donald Trump. For sure he predates Donald Trump. Donald Trump's been around for a long time. Yeah, but we all, as a reality star, but... Not as a politician.

No. Yeah. And Wilders, like, and he also likes to tweet. I don't know what it is about people in that category, but he... And it's almost like replicas. It's easy. It's almost like replicas it's almost like replicas what Donald Trump does

we also had we also had one give me an example of a Gert Wilders Donald Trump like tweet he wanted to impose a tax for veils for Muslim women

a tax, a veil tax but the... The French banned burqas. Right, right. So it's in the same category. Not that crazy. But they could exchange ideas sometimes. Can you imagine... I hope they have an internal wiki where they put like these... Maybe Donald Trump makes us more European

when you think about it. Honestly, in every European country, there is now some figure like Donald Trump. It's almost like exact replicas. And this has been going on for the last 10 years. Do you think Donald Trump would make a good president in America? In the United States or America?

I don't know. Like when you listen to Dutch media, they are European, any European, they're just flabbergasted. They're laughing, right? Yeah. Would you say people are laughing, other countries are laughing at America right now? I don't.

You can't speak for all countries. No. You can't? All right, so here's what else I know about Holland. Tell me. Windmills? Yeah. Right?

Yeah, we have windmills. That's true. What's your deal with renewable energy? Do you have a lot of renewables? For sure. Yeah. You're a nuclear country. You have nuclearills. That's true. What's your deal with renewable energy? Do you have a lot of renewables? For sure. You're a nuclear country. You have nuclear weapons. Nuclear power.

We have your nuclear weapons in Holland. You're holding them. Yeah, we're holding them for you. You're keeping them for us in case you need them. I don't know much about Holland. My good friend and old co-worker Thomas Ricker lives there from The Verge. So we communicated all the time. Here's what I know. He had a house.

We lived in Brooklyn. We had a house that was very narrow and tall. And he had a house that was very narrow and tall. Amsterdam houses. Yeah. And so we had apparently a very similar home. So I know what it's like to live in a house in Amsterdam. Yes.

Without being in Amsterdam. You have the small house experience. Small house experience. Sure. I got down. Sure. And bikes. Everybody rides bikes. Sure. And bikes. Everybody rides bikes.

That's also true. A lot of waterways because it was a very active shipping, maybe still is, very active shipping area. We were, the Dutch were, yeah,

we were pretty active in shipping stuff around, I would say, in the world. And you found, like for instance, like you shipped New York to America. We created the city.

Yeah. Yes. It's something that people tend to forget. is what New York was called originally. Yeah, Brooklyn is Brooklyn, right?

It's a Dutch town. Brooklyn is Brooklyn. What is Brooklyn? It's a town in Holland. Yeah. Does it seem, are there a lot of people with beards there?

No. It really looks like a suburban. Are there a lot of people who like make pickles, like pickled products? It couldn't be different. Really? It couldn't be different. Really? It couldn't be more different.

It'd be cool if somebody started to gentrify... Bruegel. Yeah, in the same way. And made it like Williamsburg. I would love that. That'd be very cool. Have you been to Williamsburg? I have.

And you don't think... Do you think there's anything that is reminiscent of your... I don't think it could be much more... Okay. Yeah. That's it. That's all I know about Holland. Okay.

Okay. Now, earlier we were talking about podcast apps, and you said something very shocking to me. You said that all podcast apps were terrible. Do you really believe that? No, I don't think the apps are terrible. I think it's really strange that there's no... I actually do think they're terrible.

I don't think... You're just... Okay. There's no discovery. Like, how do you discover new podcasts? You're supposed to... Twitter and Facebook. I don't get why you're so... Do you use Twitter and Facebook? and Facebook. I don't get why you're so...

Do you use Twitter and Facebook? Yeah, but I don't get why you're okay with this. I don't get why you're okay with just looking at a stream... Finally, touch the nerve. ...hoping to find something that's relevant. Like, I also don't understand all those people that complain about that Twitter does the algorithm thing. Because they're filtering for you. Do you like that?

Yes. You think that's a good idea? Yes. It's the most promising thing. Well, it's a very, very controversial idea. I know. Tell me about it. And this is something, like with the podcasting app, you're just supposed to look at a list

of the most downloaded apps. Yeah. And then by looking at a picture, think, oh, that's something. There's no Spotify for podcast. Right. Why isn't Spotify doing it? I think they are. Can't you fly over to Sweden and ask somebody?

Exactly. I should. It's actually probably, how long of a trip is that? That's what we do in Europe. How long of a trip is that? I think they are. Can't you fly over to Sweden and ask somebody? Exactly. It's actually probably how long of a trip is that? That's what we do in Europe. How long of a trip is that? From Amsterdam? Yeah. It's like an hour.

On a plane? Yeah. What if you wanted to go in another way? Go in another way? Like, you know, a drive. A drive to Sweden. Eh, 14 hours.

14 hours? Yeah, but you need to take a boat and stuff. Oh, a boat. Come on. From Denmark. I thought you guys were a lot closer. No, it's not Denmark. I thought you guys were a lot closer.

No, it's not 14 hours. I thought you were a lot closer. Maybe it's like eight. Who's the most famous person from the Netherlands that you can think of? He died yesterday. Gary Shanley. Johan Cruyff. He's a football player.

No, no, no. In the world. Oh. In the rest of the world. You're asking me who is the most famous? Like an export. Like an export. Somebody that we would know here in America.

But Johan Cruyff is pretty... Don't. I'm drawing a blank. He's a football player. I guess that's true. I'd take your word for it. I don't watch football. Or as you like to call it...

Soccer. Or as I like to call it, soccer. Yeah. You don't call it soccer. It's football. Okay. That's fine. I don't watch either one, though.

Don't worry. He is pretty... Anyway. Okay. I've never heard of him. Do you have anybody that anybody's ever heard of? Like an actress or an actor, somebody that has been in Hollywood films. You have Car've never heard of him. Do you have anybody that anybody's ever heard of? Like an actress or an actor, somebody that has been in Hollywood films.

We have Carice van Houten, who's in Game of Thrones. No, we don't really... You don't have any exports. How about an author? It's a really small country. Interesting. Before you spout off about America, maybe you ought to think twice.

You just have more people. This is just statistics. We do have more people. Statistics come into play. That is statistically a fact that we have more people in America. But we were talking about podcasting apps. And I think it's really strange that you're supposed to, and this is actually, this is reminiscent indeed of what we tried to do with Blendle.

It's tried to filter through the noise. And with podcasts, honestly, I love podcasts, but you're supposed to listen to friends. That's one thing where they say this is something that you should listen to, which is great. You want something more algorithmic. No, I think it's fine it can happen both

but then in the end in the podcasting app I end up with a list and I really don't understand why anyone is why no one is fixing this you want Spotify discovery for podcasts

that I want monetization someone's gonna respond to this I guarantee you someone is gonna respond to this podcast it already exists that it already exists

and neither you or I have for some reason have not found it I don't believe it. For some reason have not found it. I don't believe it. What about like Pocket Casts? Yeah, but it's the same thing. Overcast? It's just a list. I don't know.

It just shows a list with like a pretty picture of a cover image or whatever that ever happened. You want someone to say strongly to you, this is the next thing you should listen to. Or this specific episode

as an interview with someone that you really like or this is about a topic that you're really interested in. And monetization. No one is taking care of that. But that's why we have mid-roll. That's why we have mid-roll ads on this. And also mid-roll.

That's why the plus 30 seconds button is there in the podcast app because you can skip the ads. You can only skip the ads, but that's how YouTube works. You can fast forward through ads, but that's how YouTube works. Yeah, but... You can fast forward through ads when you leave your stuff. Yeah, but I don't think in YouTube

that's true, though. On YouTube, you usually get a skip ad in the next five seconds. Yeah, okay, sure, sure, sure. Occasionally you have to watch an ad. Occasionally you have to watch. Yeah, but I don't understand why it's still based on RSS and MP3.

Well, because that's how people listen to music. And you... I mean, MP3s are just basically how people listen to music. Yeah, but if you have a... You can't make the file like not be a file on mp3 file you could you could do something that you cannot skip the ads anymore because you're in a in an environment where you have the app it's an interesting idea no one's going to do that because i like when we upload an episode of this it's like an mp3 file you have to deal with all kinds of weird formats

and you've got DRM. Say I make an app. Okay, let's say. Say I make an app. Say you're an app developer. Exactly. Hypothetically. Exactly.

And I create a function. You choose to upload your podcast just in my app. Okay. So I'm limiting my audience immediately to just your app. But I'm doing the better app because I do the recommendation. That's nice.

But I put it on SoundCloud and hundreds of thousands of millions of people can listen to it. Most people listen for SoundCloud to your podcast? A lot of people listen. And we also use SoundCloud as a way to serve the file. Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. So how's your app going to work with that?

I guess you haven't thought of that far ahead, have you? No, what I think should happen is if that someone should not only make a listening experience, that's fine. I mean, it's pressing play and that's what a podcast app is. But there's no interactivity. If someone mentions a URL, nothing appears on the screen that you can just click the URL.

If they talk about an app, there's no way to download the app without looking at release notes or whatever comes with it. Here's an idea. It's so weird. It's like it's frozen in time for three years. What if you could pay a subscription fee? Yes. Ad free.

All your podcasts ad free. Yeah, I would like that. And with these added features. Like Spotify. Yeah. But for podcasts. But with better features. For podcasts.

But I don't understand why no one is doing this. Honestly. Maybe you'll make that. You'll call it Plendl. Plendl for podcasts. That's really. That's a freebie. That's a free.

Thank you so much. All right, here's some other things I know about Holland. There is a film made about Holland called Amsterdam. That's true. About a serial killer. I don't remember a lot about it, but I do know that there's scuba diving involved. It's a serial killer that hides in the canals of Amsterdam. Yeah.

Yes. Rotterdam is part of the Netherlands. True. There has not been a sequel to Amsterdam called Rotterdam. This is your. I suggested this earlier. Ah, you, you want. Not on the podcast, but when we were talking.

You want a Rotterdam film. A sequel to Amsterdam called Rotterdam. Rotterdam. Yeah. Now, how would someone kill in Rotterdam? Yeah, there's, there's no canals. Because there's not a bunch of waterways. Right.

So how would you be, what would the killer be? He'd use, the killer would use some form of gabber some for gab you know what gabber is i do not gabber is like a form of very hard techno music okay a lot of it came from is it really is it really what you call it yeah gabber gabber gabber yeah and rotterdam a lot of that came from rotterdam, I believe. Rotterdam may have actually been a style at some point. It's like Berlin. Rotterdam is the Berlin of Holland. It's less Polish. Rotterdam is the Berlin of Holland.

I've learned something new about Holland. Yes. Anyhow, Rotterdam, coming soon to a theater. Yeah, I couldn't tell you the plot. What's Rotterdam like? It seems like it would be a very depressing place. It was bombed to nothing during the war. How is it now?

It's new buildings. So it looks pretty good. Yeah. It's like Amsterdam feels like it's frozen in time. It's like an open air museum. And Rotterdam is actually changing. I actually like Rotterdam. I wrote down something here to ask you about users.

Do you have any idea what that means? Yeah. You wanted to know how popular Blinnel was in Europe. Yeah. How popular is it in Europe? Do we discuss this? Sorry, I'm so out of it. This is a very weird...

You're being punished, basically, for my kid's illness. We have over 650,000 users. Signed up and then you said 20% are active. Exactly, exactly. Which means active to you is what, how often? Paying, at least once a month. Once a month they're paying some money. At least. Other thing on the list.

Media. What about it? I don't know. You wanted to talk about media. I did. Maybe Paul remembers. Paul, do you remember? No. Nothing. No, I don't know. Forget it. There's nothing there. Terrorism we discussed. No, I don't know. Forget it. There's nothing there.

Terrorism we discussed. Paul wants to know, he has a question from the engineer. What do we do with all the leftover CDs that haven't been sold? How would he know? He doesn't even know what a CD is. A blank CD. He would know even less. This guy knows nothing about CDs or the technology. He's 100% digital. You're talking to a person who's raised on the iPhone. I burn CDs.

I used to sell illegal CDs in high school. He sold CDs in high school. That's true. What an irony. You never bought a CD. Yes. You sold them. Yes. I made money off of them. What did you sell? Yeah, it's just to classmates. I just downloaded them and then burned them on...

What's the statute of limitations for arresting somebody for piracy in the Netherlands? It's a very liberal country. I hope that they hear this. Everything is okay. I hope they come after you. What? Oh, yeah. Paul reminded us.

Liberal is right wing. That's true. Everything's upside down. Everything is upside down. Do you have guns? What's the gun? No, we don't have guns. Do you own a gun?

No. Would you be terrified to hold a gun? Yes. It's a terrifying idea, right? It's completely alien to you that you would have a gun. Yes. You don't worry about people coming into your house with a gun at night. Do you? People in America do. Yes. Yes. I don't. I think about it once in a while. Do you have a gun? No. I think about,

you know, because I really love horror films, and there's a genre of horror film called home invasion where men come in with guns where people of all types invade someone's home okay right it's a kind of a genre i mean it's not really like classified as i think it's anyhow but the idea is like they're you know last house on the left is sort of one of the films that kick-started you know the film no it's by uh west craven uh it's about uh youven. It's about men who come to a house in the country and they go into the house and do horrible things to the people there. The whole idea of just policemen have guns,

that happens. Your policemen have guns. Yeah, but there's no discussion. You don't worry about them abusing their power. I really don't. What's the training like for a... A train? Training.

For like a Netherlands... To get a gun. A Amsterdam police person. I don't even know. No, a police person. I don't... Is it very... Do they have very rigorous training?

They probably get training. I don't know. But... Have you ever been arrested? I have never been arrested. I like this. This is like a weird, very weird... That's fine. I've never been arrested. Why is like a weird, very weird. That's fine.

I've never been arrested. Why did I bring up guns? Why do you bring up guns? Why did I bring them up? Do you remember? I think Paul had something to do with it. All right. So what's next for Blendle? Are you getting a vibe, by the way,

of what this podcast is like? This is a little bit weirder than most of them, but this is kind of the same. I hope you will edit some of this. None of this will be edited. Wow. This is all going to be straight through. You're okay. You just have to want to listen to this. That's the thing. You have to want to be part of this experience. Well, no one is anymore.

So that helps. You know, if they stuck around, they're a true believer. That is true. We should hide some Easter egg. Like, if you email some specific email address, you get like $10,000. Let's put a code in for Blendle at the end of this. Yeah, you get like $100 of credit. Let's do something.

What's a word? We can do this. Yeah, yeah. We can put a word. Like you made it. Geert Wilders. People know how to spell that now. Geert Wilders.

Exactly. If you go in and put Geert Wilders into, is there a promo code area? Do you have a promo code area? Is there any way for you to actually execute on this? You're flying back tonight. Is there any way you could tell them on the plane? I'll make this on the plane. I'd really like to do this now that you've

mentioned the Easter egg idea. Is there anywhere to do... At the end of the episode. I read sometimes that people do this in terms of service, in the terms of service thing where you agree to without reading it. Could you put something in the app right now that would allow a promo code to work like do you have you don't get access to get access to blendl sure or something like some some extra credit or something yeah like 666 dollars of credit do you have i don't have that much money you can't put you're like we're not

that well funded yeah that would put us that would be it for Blendle. All right, so what's the next thing? So you just launched your beta release. We just launched on Wednesday. This is your baby. This is all happening now. This is a huge thing. It's all you work on. Yeah.

So you've been working on it in Holland, and now you're bringing it here. We have a 70-person company in Holland. It's a lot of people. It's a lot of people. It's a shitload of people, actually. I know, I know. 70 people is very, very large. We're funded by the New York Times, which I say very proudly,

and by Axel Springer, the owners of Business Insider. The New York Times gave you money to make this thing. Exactly. And Axel Springer. And Axel Springer. Yeah, which is a German, they invest in everything. No, I mean, I'm not knocking it. They invest in very smart companies.

Every new smart media business has a little bit of Axel Springer money. But the next steps are... I meant everything that's good. Let me just clarify. For sure, for sure. But the next steps are... I meant everything that's good. Let me just clarify. For sure. For sure. But the next steps are, we launched this thing now. We invited a bunch of people that we like. We had some people signing

up. And I think in the first week, we're going to let in 10,000 people. It is a waiting list. You haven't done it yet? Yeah. You're starting to... You're trickling in. It's Friday, so we should have them in right now. Yeah. By the time people hear this, not all 10,000. More. More than 10,000. But more than... Yes. More than 10,000 10 000 by monday oh yeah for sure okay all right cool um it's over yeah we're way over that okay good no no i mean you're but you're trickling them in will they all be there

yeah okay yeah all right um and uh from here on it's you know it's looking at what kind of stories are americans you know willing to pay for what kind of stories are Americans willing to pay for? What kind of stories are they interested in? And what is our target audience exactly? We love listicles. You love listicles? Okay. And clickbait. I heard you had a politician that's making...

Have you heard of our leading presidential candidate, Donald Trump? That sounds very exciting. He kind of is a little bit like Geert Wilders. Yeah, I know that guy. Sure, sure. I'd pay for him. Okay, so adding more users. Adding more users publications for sure and and and i today i got a lot of emails from publishers that want to come on so that's really cool oh that's good and so people

are like hey this is interesting we want to be part of it yeah i really have that very excited i have that feeling and we there the the response that we had this week was truly extraordinary. So I understand that it feels weird to ask money for something that you now perceive as free. I am very sure that in a year, that's going to be different. I mean, listen, I pay money for these things, but a lot of people don't. I mean, I subscribe to 20 different magazines. And the question is, how do you make that group bigger? And I think the only way to do it is by building a really great product that people didn't know they missed before they tried it. Let me say this.

I use a lot of products. This is worth it if you stuck around to the end of this podcast. I'm about to say something very important. Profound. I have used and reviewed a lot of products, a lot of apps. I haven't reviewed that many apps, but I certainly used a shit ton of them. And particularly as in, as it relates to the new,

as they relate to the news space, I've obviously like looked at everything. And I have to say that I think that blendle is really fucking cool. Like, I think it's a really cool idea. Like, I think that it's executed better than most things. I think the,

actually like even the onboarding, we talked about this a little bit before, but the onboarding is really good. It feels smart and funny and personable and normal. Something that is like, oh, this is from a world that I understand. It's not one of these dumb. But we have to. It's like a quick and onboarding. It's not like that.

But we're actually trying to do this. We're trying to trick people into pay for something that's worth paying for. So you need to do it really well. I think that, I mean, I think you probably want to avoid saying you're tricking people out loud, but the trick is that it feels very modern. Actually, it's not a trick. It's real. That it feels like a really modern experience.

And so what I think is really encouraging about it is if you're somebody who's never paid for news before and you get in very quickly, you're like who's never paid for news before yeah and you get in yeah very quickly you're like oh i get it and i i have to say like as a person who um laura has a subscription to the new york times i don't i did but i can't remember what happened like i don't at the current at the time at the present i had one until very very recently but what i found now that i don't have one is like i'm hitting the paywall yeahwall which is a sort of new experience and I'm like this is very annoying but I also realize I recognize

that my desire to read the New York Times most stories I mean 99% of their stories I'm not interested in right so being able to zero in on the 1% that I am interested in is really like a whole different

way of thinking about it. And so that's where I think there's like a really interesting opportunity because if you take all of that stuff together and you're like, oh, these, this 1% from all these things, like I hit the wall street journal paywall constantly. Right. Cause I'm not a, I'm also a former, not now non-subscriber, which maybe is a sign of something the need for a blendle in the world. But you know,

I'm like hitting the, I'm hitting the paywall and I'm like, eh, like I'm not going to subscribe to read this one article, but I will pay 30 cents to read it or 19 cents or whatever. Like it feels like a reasonable request of me. Yeah. So I think there's something really exciting.

And I think that you guys have executed in the early part of this really well. So, and that's what it is. Congratulations to you for making something that isn't complete shit. Thank you very much. Because that's very, very difficult. Because most things are complete shit in the world, basically. And particularly in our space, in the news space,

very hard to pull off a new idea and do it well and make somebody even consider spending money on it. Exactly. But that's why we need, you know, that's why I'm so happy with the feedback that we're getting from our initial users. There's a lot need, you know, that's why I'm so happy with the feedback that we're getting from our initial users. There's a lot of people telling us, why don't you change this? Why don't you change that?

And I really feel like together, it sounds so cheesy, but together we can actually solve this problem. I really believe so. Inspirational. That's what I want to do. You're an inspirational man. Well, thank you very much, Josh. Alex, thank you for coming and doing this with me. You're welcome. I know you have to fly immediately back. want to do. You're an inspirational man. Well, thank you very much, Josh. Alex, thank you for coming and doing this with me. You're welcome.

I know you have to fly immediately back. Back to Amsterdam. Back to Amsterdam. KLM. Royal Dutch Airlines. I'm not a sponsor. I just want to be clear. And you didn't get a business class seat.

You tried and you failed. I'm a startup man. That's very sad. Exit row? Startup people don't fly business. You can't get an exit row? Exit row? Startup people don't fly business. Are you thinking exit row? Exit row is something that you pay for with KLM. Are you going to pay for it?

I don't think so. I would pay for it. Don't be a fool. Okay. Get in the exit row. All right, fine. They actually say that over the wings is where the turbulence is least felt. I just read about this because I have a mortal fear of turbulence because I don't know how

planes work. Okay. Nor do I like them. At any rate. Okay. That's the show. We're going to wrap up. Alex. Nor do I like them. At any rate. Okay. That's the show. We're going to wrap up. Alex, thanks again.

And you have to come back once the Blendel has become whatever the next version of Blendel is. Exactly. When it's Spotify and people will start getting it. When it's as big as Spotify. It's the Blendel of love. We have 60 million. Exactly.

How many do they have? 60 million? I think 30. I think 30 million. Maybe I'm thinking of it. Which is already pretty cool. That's a lot of people. Yes.

Anyhow. All right. Thanks again. Thank you. Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow, of course. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best. Though I understand that your children who were once liberals

are now conservatives and your conservative children are actually liberals you