Tomorrow - Episode 51: Feeds and Speeds and Max Read

Episode Date: May 2, 2016

This week Josh and Max Read, editor of SelectAll and former editor of Gawker, diagnose our society's issues with platform lock-in, our rapidly changing cultural norms, and the future of media. This episode mixes 2 parts Beyonce, 1 parts Kanye West, a splash of iOS vs. Android, and a whole lot of fascinating tales from the front lines of extreme publishing. Do not listen if you have allergies to laughing, self-reflection, or regret. Please be sure to talk to your doctor if you experience being mind-blown by the power of this show for more than 4 hours. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to Tomorrow, I'm your host, Joshua Tupulski. Today in the podcast we discuss Beyonce gadgets and JD Salinger. I don't want to waste my minute. Let's get right into it. My guest today is a former editor of Gawker, founder of IRL Club, or is that what I call it, the IRL Club. I actually don't like to call that. And a current senior editor at New York Magazine and the leading voice of Select All, a brand new technology and internet-focused blog. Sure. We can call it on New York Magazine.com or probably as part of New York magazine.com.

I guess, of course, the beautiful, the illustrious, sexy, max read. Thank you, John. Thank you for coming. What an introduction. Well, I try. I mean, in that I don't have anything planned and then I just say whatever I can think of quickly. Well, staring at me and you thought sexy, that means a lot.

I do describe many guesses, kind of like sexual or sexy. So I might just be a little bit of a go too. Thank you for doing this. Now Max and I know each other socially, I'm going to admit that. Full disclosure, you've spent some time in social settings. That's absolutely right. Working.

And we've never worked together. No, no, this is full disclosure. We've never worked together. Full disclosure., no. This is all disclosure, we've never worked together. Full disclosure. But we've worked in a similar industry. Yeah, and in fact, I'm now at the head of a gadget blog, which is, are we calling it a gadget blog? Sort of jokingly, yes, because it gets reactions

from people who used to run gadget blogs. Well, apparently gadget blogging is back. Yeah, well on Facebook, on Facebook only. I, here's all I have to say as far as gadget blogging is back. Yeah well on Facebook and Facebook only. I here's my here's all I have to say as far as gadget blog is concerned. Okay. What's a gadget and what's a blog? You don't have to answer those. Those are more like and put them out and I want them out in the atmosphere. We can be checked. If you want to answer them you can. I think the the select all is going to answer those questions itself just through its very existence. Very promotional. So select all is select all it was previously for several months in kind of like a

larval form known as following. Yeah, so it was started. We started in November of last year. It was originally a what they what they call a pop-up blog in New York, which is one of these things where you get a what they call a pop-up blog in New York, which is one of these things where you get a sponsor to come in and essentially sponsor a month or two months worth of a blog editorial independent. So we had two months in November and December and they were pretty successful.

People liked it, people were reading it. I can only imagine the reactions of New York magazine when they were like, oh, this is what happens when you write about technology on the internet. My guess is it did pretty well. It did pretty well. I mean, because New York magazine doesn't have had previously, did not have like any kind of technology or internet component.

I mean, they've written some very smart stories about the internet. Yeah. But, you know, the Jessica Pressler has written some really great stuff. Kevin Rousse is probably, Adrian Chen has written some stuff. Never heard of him. David Wallace Wells does some excellent technology stuff. He's great. He's great. But yeah, and you know, they liked it. I they felt like and I felt like we were sort of finding

a voice and doing something that wasn't really being done elsewhere and fit in very well with what New York Magazine, the sort of institutional voice and the ethos. Yeah. And so they we decided to turn it into a permanent thing. And you changed the name. Yeah, I mean, following initially was, and the name reflected this kind of a very lifestyle-focused, like experience-focused site, particularly about the internet and social media.

And we decided that we wanted this to be about technology in a much broader sense and following. On the culture of technology. Yeah. At that intersection of technology and culture. Can we talk about that phrase actually because the verge can't wait that since I fucking invented it. I would love to talk about it. Well, so mashable has been using it for a long time.

Not as long as we have been using it. You guys had it first. Absolutely. Were you the originator of the intersection between technology and culture? I believe so. Yeah, you're willing to take that. I mean, maybe maybe he cashmar will be like,

hold on mate or whatever he would say. So I think he's not from the US. I'm fairly certain that that was our, right, that was our baby. I mean, this is like the phrase is a joke around gadget bloggers at this point, because it is at this point, basically meaningless. I mean, cliche. Well, when I really want to like kill the metaphor dead, I'm say, I say, you know,

well, it's not really an intersection anymore. It's basically the same street. So, yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Right. So, and then if you really want to kill the metaphor dead, the big difference between us and the verge is the verge is coming from the technology end of the street,

and we're coming from the culture end of the street and we're coming from the culture and the street. I guess if you say so. Yeah. I mean, at this point, you know, obviously I'm not at the verge, so I can't comment on which direction they're coming from. There is obviously a ton of culture coverage there. But you know, culture coverage from that perspective, review point doesn't necessarily mean that like you're actually immediate the interception.

No, and it's also, it's a little like, I'm sorry, but reviewing, I'm sorry, that, you're not, no, no, please. Like reviewing the Nubianse record, no, isn't actually, I mean, I don't even know if the verge did it, but it's not actually at the intersection of technology and culture, it's not. It's just like a culture thing.

Yeah, that's a music review. Right, it's a review that I have. It's sort of you ended on top of a culture site. And I think there is a little more nuance to it. No, and I think, what we do, or what we try to do is write about technology as a culture site. And I think there is a little more nuance to it. No, and I think what we do, or what we try to do, is write about technology as a culture, or technology as an experience,

as like a human experience. And that's what, and that was the idea with the verge. Right. Was, I mean, the basic idea, and this is an idea that I still feel very strongly about, is that it, and we actually had to unlearn, is that a word? I don't think it is.

Yeah, we'd unlearn a lot of bad habits from our AOL and gadget days where we were doing straight up gadget blogging, which was very like feeds and speeds, like nuts and bolts, like how is the screen, what's the resolution of the screen, that kind of stuff. And in the first year, we had been, we, I probably told the story a hundred times, because you've listened to this, you probably heard this story. Like, this is the 51st episode of Tomorrow and I've told the story 49 times. But we cut back on what we actually were producing by like 25 or 35%.

Like we were just like cranking out these like gadget posts and just like rando shit. You know, like we weren't doing routers, but we were doing things that we had, we thought we had to do because it felt like we had done it and our audience wanted it. But then what it turned out was like what, the audience really responded to was much more

of the, what is it, why does it matter? Who made it, what's happening next? That stuff was a lot more interesting. Or even when we did pieces like, sorry, this is me talking about myself now and I feel kind of, no, no, no. Even though you've entered our space.

No, I'm, you know, I'm, you know, I'm, you've entered our space. And you said, I'm sitting at the foot of the master waiting for him. I'm receiving all of the lessons. That is good shit. Um, the, um, you know, we did stories like the history of, uh, dubstep.

Right. Uh, we did stuff like, you know, the story about a face transplant and things that were, we're like, not really even in. What they really felt like was there's a culture that is the lens in the mirror of the culture is technology. This generation sees the world differently and can we tell stories from that how that generation sees the world and what they're interested in. Yeah, absolutely.

To me, it's also I think that people, and this has always been true, lifestyle coverage, sort of coverage about how people live, tends to get kind of laughed at and overlooked, I think, but I think people really like to know, they like to have voiced the way they are living their own lives. And if you can articulate, if you're a good writer or a good editor, if you have the right ideas, if you're a smart, critical culture, if you're able to go in there and say, well look, isn't it interesting that we're all, you know, undertaking this particular behavior right now and here's what this means or maybe means or doesn't mean?

Right, I think you're doing a service to people. I mean, it's, you know. Yeah, I agree. I think that increasingly, like what I'm desirous of from the thing, from the outlets that I read or from the people that I read or watch or whatever, you know, interact with and some, you know, Yeah, a mere cat or whatever. But what I want is for somebody to ask questions that other people aren't asking, and to look at a look at a

cultural happening or A person in our culture or a thing in our culture and say, have we looked at it this way, have we talked about it this way? That's interesting. Yeah. And I think there's not that much of it. No. And a lot of like X-Men trailer, five things about the X-Men trailer.

Like that's pretty typical. And to me, all the exciting stuff in culture is happening on technology or around technology or through technology. That's right, just look at Beyonce's new album, for instance. It was released in a horrible way on title and then re-released on, but you know what, actually. So Beyonce's a really good example of her album. Technically, it has nothing to do with technology

in the sense that it's not like she used a new synthesizer to make it hard. So you know, like had some incredible version of a sample that did anyhow. But what's interesting is we can talk about what scarcity means and what exclusivity means. And in the age of technology where the physicality of an object doesn't is no longer a limitation. And this is an ongoing conversation that I think is really interesting. That directly impacts everybody who is like alive

and a consumer right now. It's like, what does it mean when everything is basically, you can replicate it and you can get it for free. And exclusivity kind of doesn't exist. I mean, this is the Kanye is doing the most interesting stuff with this, I think. You know, on title, he's got the worst. Most interesting in the worst. Well, I think, you know, on title he's got the worst most interesting in the worst. Well, I mean, it is Explain why I mean. Well, I'm interested to hear but the it's fascinating to me the extent to which he's like essentially

treating life of Pablo as a video game or a piece of software and patching it and and he's like it you know, no, I mean, it annoys me to the extent that like, you know, the same way that George Lucas and the special editor, the Star Wars special editions annoyed me, I'm giving kind of the benefit out for now because his patches are actually improving the album at least to Myers. Disagree. Okay. And is that why you're annoyed by it?

Well, I think here's the deal. You want to create an evolving work totally, I mean, listen, it's his discretion, he's the artist. But I think if we really are talking about like the album as a new kind of product, if like you are going to make revisions to it, I think you should offer revision history. And I should be able to go back and look at like the original version of Fade versus the new version of Fade,

one's better, it's the original. Well, it's actually, I don't know if it's the original, it's the first one that I heard on title, but like, unfortunately, I can't say what version of that that was because I don't know when Kanye changed the version. So like in one way, it's like kind of an amazing piece of art that he's even doing it. It's extremely annoying. On the other hand, I unsubscribed a title and I listened to it on Spotify. Oh, yeah. So whatever that version is, as far as I've concerned, the version, he's not re-releasing tracks on Spotify because that yeah, I mean. So whatever that version is, as far as I've concerned, the version. Well, that's the thing.

He's not re-releasing tracks on Spotify because that fucks with his bottom line. And like we can talk for it, by the way, for days, probably about how Kanye was like, I've never released this on Apple Music or Spotify and literally like two weeks later. It was released on Apple Music. It's Spotify. Because like at the end of the day, like he is $53 million in debt. Yeah, I would go and Beyonce, you know, it ended up off of title and onto Apple Music and Spotify within two days. Title is, but first off, she's got real motivation,

because Jay-Z fucked around on her. I think as far as we can tell, and that's like Jay-Z's baby. Yeah. And so she's got to get the fuck away from it. Yeah. I mean, Beyonce is, that's like another slap in the face. Yeah. On top of an entire record about his cheat and ass. Yeah, I mean Beyonce is that's like another slap in the face On top of an entire record about his cheat

Well, it's to it's to have a lot of the record is about that from what I can tell I mean I don't do you think I don't want to read into it. Well, right how much of it? I think it's right here Ryan do you think that it's autobiographical? He Ryan, do you think that it's autobiographical? He knew everything she was going to say. And he had, he's one of the people that signed off on the record entirely. So I think he knew going. I think he can be like, no.

Well, no, but I think he knew going out like, this half, 50% of this is autobiographical stuff we're airing and 50% of this is a continuation of the storyline we had with the Mr. and Mrs. Carter World Tour stuff. You know, he's like, this is gonna make so much money. He's like, he's like, you wanna use our personal life? No. I think the millions and millions of dollars

will soften the blow. Yeah, of being exposed. I mean, the bullshit, Palmo dumb thing is like her business, you could say her art or her business is her life Is her personal life and the album is a promo for the rest of that like you know The end of the day she's making money off of the tours. She's making money off of sponsorship She's not making money off of Spotify plays or Apple music downloads. Not a lot of money. It's a pretty good record It's like I'm related. I'm related. I love it man. I was like yeah, I was okay

So I'm not, this is, I probably shouldn't say this. Not that big of a Beyonce fan. I haven't really been like, I'm like, hey. Right, it's like I quit. This is a guy who has power over how your voice is gonna set. I just, I just haven't, you know,

I thought formation was in, was like the first interesting thing that I've heard in a while. Wasn't the last record like, I was like, it was like a sex record. It was like the, she's also like, she goes back and forth. There's like a pendulum. I mean, to me that, wasn't the last record like, about how much you love this record. It was like the, but she's also like, she goes back and forth. There's like a pendulum. I mean, to me that one of the interesting things is like,

you know, now that we've completely abandoned the idea that recorded music is gonna make money in and of itself, you see stars like Kanye and Beyonce feeling a lot more free to make records that have no singles. Have you seen her active, active where? I have seen the actual line. I mean, I'm not an active wear. I am

I'm an active wear right now. I don't realize I'm in a pair of bike cycling shorts and a tank top. What is it called again park something park? I can't remember what Beyonce's line is called. You should look into it. I don't know if they make it in your size. We got a peloton. Yes, and I wrote it for the first time the other day. And it was amazing, but boy, that seat, it's a, did a number right.

It's a, it's a hard, walked a little, you walked a little funny way. It's like really hard on the, on the, it's a sphincter. Yeah, it's hard on a part of your body that normally doesn't get a lot of attention. Let's put it that way. It depends on your life.

I guess you know what? That's very true. Let's put it that way. Depends on your look. I can't see it at what? That's very true. And you're getting back to technology. Getting back to technology culture. So you launch Select All. Yeah. And this is on Wednesday. This is on Wednesday of this week.

This will air on Monday. People can visit it. And then one last week it was launched. NYMag.com forward slash select all. Or select all.com. We got select all.com. Really? Yeah. What that cost? Do you know? They don't depend. Yeah. all we don't get select all dot com we got select all dot com really yeah what that cost you know i don't that they don't be penny yeah they don't tell me you're magazine they got money to

blow on you are else um anyhow so it's actually here's what i will say and i've you know i had been reading following i was i've been following it uh yes nailed it as you're supposed to slam dunk i think this thing is over pack it it up, Ryan, we're good. It's good, it's smart, it's interesting. I think it has a distinct vibe that is, it feels of the internet, very clearly of the internet and like a part of the fabric of the internet, which I like a lot, it feels like granola-y in the best way. When I talk about like my best and favorite things

that like art publications, it's like the granola of like these weird little bits and pieces that all fit together and make like a delicious. That's such a good metaphor. Breakfast. Yeah. My, no, I actually think like the best magazine or publication is like, there's some almonds, there's some granola and there's like a raisin in there,

maybe you have some fruit, a little honey drizzled on top, there's maybe you're going for the yogurt. It's all these things that Frank really shouldn't go together, but when you get in your mouth, it's an amazing experience. Yeah. So it feels that way, and it's not like a one track,

like we just do. So I wouldn't call it a gadget block. No, no. I mean, I know it's funny to you, but... The gadget block can be also... Now you've got a big public, you've got a, you know, the, no, no, it's not just a gadget. It's about how we live online. I mean, that was what the tagline was.

And we're adding a lot of tech coverage. We have pieces we had a piece by the great Brian Parrot former editor in chief of Gismoto. It's great. The great Brian. One of the greats. I love Brian. I think Brian's one of the greats.

I don't know him, but I've just the first time I've heard anybody say the great. I'm not saying he's not great. Oh, you should talk to some, I mean, Gizmodo writers who I'm not dizzy. I'm not dizzy, Kim. I just want to be Brian, if you listen to that, I want to be clear.

That was a man as a disc. You know, so we have all this sort of consumer tech coverage that we're trying to figure out how New York magazine readers are going to want that and how we can do it. I don't want it. Because they're like, they're like, they're brunch. They have like a they're smart, sophisticated. They're like you know they're wearing glasses that brunch. I mean and if that's

if they have you know i problem they do they do they have bad vision. They do. You're saying all New York magazine. I'd like to see that I mean I'd love to see a demo I'd like to see a demo on this but my guess is like a pretty high percentage of New York Mags, if you're still a big group? I'd like to see that person, I mean, I'd love to see a demo on this, but my guess is like a pretty high percentage of New York magazine readers also wear glass. I mean, in print, that's probably true. It's in a whole new year show. It's a fucked up general. But yeah, I feel in my heart that it's true.

Um, the, I mean, you know, like people still need, even if you disparage, sort of like, you know, gadget blogging, what did you call it? You had a phrase for this, something in specs or feeds and speeds. Yeah. That used to be like, that was like a Steve Jobs disk.

He would be like, I think he was like, oh, they care about feeds and speeds, but we don't. Right, so that stuff is not interesting to near magazine readers. It's not interesting to anybody who's not like a serious gadget enthusiast, but people do wanna know how they can make their lives better using actual tech. And this has been true, like a serious gadget enthusiast. But people do want to know how they can make their lives better using actual tech.

And this has been true. Like magazines have always done this. New York Magazine has strategists. It's a useful buying guide, useful consumer guide. So it's a question of how do we write good writing that helps people know how to improve their lives? And I think that we can do that. I think that it's, people are so burned out on,

you know, 15 years of boring old feeds and speeds, yeah, yeah, they don't think enough about when I thought was good about the wire cutter year old buddy Brian, did you know Brian, I mean, do you guys, we've met a couple times, I don't, that's so interesting, that's so interesting to me, because I think of all the gocker people's,

they all are buddies. Weirdly, I mean, I'm good friends with a lot of the Gizmodo writers, ex-Gizmodo writers, but like Matt, Buchanan, John Herman, John Mahoney, damn it. Sure, but those guys are guys. So many of them, yeah. There's a lot of them, right?

And also so many in the circle of people that you and I both know. But I think a Brian is being part of that, but he's actually not like that's a totally different generation. I mean, he was there. Joel is part of that generation. Yeah, Joel has been to all generations.

He was recently on the podcast. Yeah. But I thought, sorry, to say about the wire. You were talking about the watercolour, yeah. Well, I thought it was good about it. And we also were sort of evolving this to the verge where it was like, it's less about this phone does this and more about like Okay, you know you a need a phone. Yeah, how can we help you which one should you because like seriously?

They're all kind of the same like one is the best one for you right? The iPhone usually is the answer For most people with the I vote although I have to say I've met some people recently in my life who I'm like Surprise their Android users. I don't want to get into this debate, but I'm like, that's weird, you're Android user. Well, who in your life are you surprised about? I can't name names. Oh, I mean, this is...

But people who are like, you know, important. Not important, like, people who work at large businesses, doing like, relatively like sort of executive level jobs, where I'm like, you're obviously an iPhone person. And they're like, oh yeah, no, I like this launcher. I love an HTC and I like this launcher. What are their, what models, like what phones do they have? HTC.

Yeah. Samsung, obviously, you know, Corey Seaka, who is now a Vox, who is the all founder and a former gocker editor. You guys share that. Yeah. Tweeted the other day, like not the other day, but a couple of weeks ago, he's like, I finally happened, I'm on a train, and everybody has a Samsung.

I was like, are you on a train in Korea? But like, but honestly, there is, like it is funny, you do see, I mean, it's kind of like, but who gives a shit? That's the important point. And that's why like technology, culture, we all live in. The technology itself is actually like relatively more. So the most interesting, like, like Samsung or Android versus iOS story,

I read recently was Caroline Moss, who is formerly of tech insider. Great talent. Yeah, incredibly funny, smart writer and editor. And she, her boyfriend, who is this writer Dan Nassowitz who's right Just the worst Okay, dance great. It's lovely man. Dan has an Android phone. Yeah, that's right He has no, no, it's not shitty. He actually has a nice one. He's an LG G4's what he has

Oh, yeah, by the way, we went to Katie Nautopoulos, who's been on the show several times, and is also my sister-in-law, had a birthday party, and Dan was there with his phone, and I was like, oh, you've had LGG4s, you're literally the only person who would do that. That's probably true. It's important that your podcast readers know that you still haven't lost the touch.

It's still there. I can, I actually, can I just say something totally? Please. An aside to this. I, one I actually, can I just say something totally, please, on a side to this, I, one of my great joys in life, and probably one of the great annoyances to Laura and to other people who dine with me, is that I'm like very fascinated by the phones that people have, and I'm always looking at people, like I'm trying to figure out, like what phone is that? Like one of my great hobbies in life is I'm out somewhere and somebody's like using a phone,

and then I phone you can spot right out the bat. But increasingly there's a wide variety. Like I see people with the N plus one, or whatever, no, N plus one, what is the thing? That's a magazine. What is the phone called? The plus one?

Yeah, the, what the fuck is the actual name of that phone? It's just called the plus one. I thought the, yeah, maybe it's just called the plus one. And plus one is a great magazine, if you'd like to read literate assholes. But I'm like, what is this phone? And I'm like, oh, it's a plus one,

which is like, that's a hobby for me. Okay, Eddie, yeah. So Dan is a surprise of me. Well, we'll get back to that in a sec. So the story I liked is Caroline Dan's got this decent Android phone and Caroline's still has her. LG G4. LG G4 and Caroline still has her iPhone.

And the story that she wrote wasn't about the fees and speeds, it wasn't a spec thing. It was literally, I'm annoyed as hell with my boyfriend because texting him is a fucking lie. Yes, yes, this is the good, listen, I would be a full-time Android user. This is the truth. Yeah.

Not that I don't love Apple and their products, but I, there's something, I look, I'm a person who likes fucking with things. Yeah, Android is the best. You really can't fuck with the iPhone. It's, I mean, just like, it's just like, this is how it works. And this is, you're just gonna have to,

if you wanna do something weird, you're gonna have to jump through some weird hoop. Like, you're gonna have to get, geo-hots to like, you know, get like hot, you know, like he's gonna have to solder something on your phone or whatever. You're gonna do some serious Googling, you're gonna be a lot of stack-of-flow threads. You're gonna hear it in there. Jailbreakers are like, don't update your phone. Don't update your phone.

Do not update to iOS 9.3.1, or it'll break your jailbreak. That's like, you can tell I've lived this. update to iOS 9.3.1 or it'll break your jailbreak. You can tell I've lived this. Anyhow, but like I message, is the unifying platform for everybody that I know, including my parents now. Like I was, my father had this flip phone. My father had this phone.

He, it's like, it opens like a switchblade. He had it for years. It's like, I don't know what it's called. I get the, since speaking of phones, I don't know the name of called. I get the speech. I get the phones. I don't know the day of I know this fucking phone like He got an Android phone and he was like no, I don't want this and he went back to this thing

It's literally opens like a switch plate. That's all I could say and I was like you need to get a real phone You don't have the Samsung Duke that no, it's not the juice. Oh, maybe the Duke it might be It's he was terrorizing the whole family. Yes, that's the fun Samson juke is to have on Verizon and I was like you terrorize your family You're you know your wife is Liz. She's gonna leave you like we just please get on iMessage like you just need to be able to text Like a normal person and so I like literally bought him an iFud. I'm like we're going to Verizon. I put you on And so I like literally bought him an iPhone. I'm like, we're going to Verizon. I'm putting you on.

But like so now what else should be in the family together? We're fucking happy. It's BBM all over again. And I mean, I mean, like I have to say too, something that's really good for Apple is I, a huge amount of my, of activity that used to be like on Twitter or even Facebook is now in group, I messages. I mean, you know, I'm in like, you know,

five or six group, I'm a friend. They got you. No, they got you. And, you know, so long as that is how I'm in like, you know, five or six group, I'm a friend. They got you. No, they got you. And, you know, so long as that is how I'm spending lots of my day, I can't leave the iPhone. It sucks. It's so annoying. Also, I message isn't that good. No.

It kind of doesn't work, how long. No, and the whole thing is, the thing for me is it's like, it's terrible, but it was so much worse two years ago that you've fooled yourself into thinking that it works. It's like, getting my messages. It gets exactly. Don't you feel like fooled yourself into thinking that it works. There's like getting my messages. Exactly. Don't you feel like app buy-in is the, because for me, I message is a thing, but like at least they've integrated where you can sync your MMS to your computer.

I feel like I have so, I have $400 in apps that I'm not willing to walk away from, even for like, that is a real thing. I mean, nobody's like, yeah, I mean, you have to rebuy like Clash of Kings or what I all of you're like whatever you're there things you can buy on Clash of Kings Gold or something You know, you're like, oh shit. I'm not gonna buy this gold again. I already bought all this Because of the digital gold Yeah, we're laughing about it. It's fucking true. Oh, there's a whale there. No, I bought some candy crush shit. Out of the thing I swear I'd never do,

is spend money on in-app purchases in candy crush. It's more like I'm waiting for a train and I need something positive to happen in my life. And I can't get past it. I cannot get it through a level of candy crush, which I haven't played in a long time. But then I went back to an Android phone, I'm like, oh yeah. And it's like, oh yeah, none of my shitouch, which I haven't played in a long time. But then I went back to, I went to an Android phone, I'm like, oh yeah.

And it's like, oh yeah, none of my shit's here. I'm on level one. I played a level like 128, now I'm on level one. It's a nightmare. And then they rate, that's how they get you. That's called platform lock. And it's the worst thing that has happened to us in the past 10 years.

And every platform, I've written about this, recently in the New Yorker, every platform, especially though, like this recently in the New Yorker, every platform, especially though like a platform like Facebook wants you to be part of that platform we never leave. Yeah. And I mean, so what would your solution be like a user's bill of rights kind of a thing? Like, you know, you can get your data out.

No, no, no, it's not about data. The data is just like sit there like, what are you going to do with your fucking data? My solution is interoperability as a basis for how we build a digital, like a digital universe or ecosystem. Like, what is, what is great for Apple, but bad for its users is that it doesn't want people to use a different email client than its mail client. And like, that's fine if you have, if Apple's, if every one of Apple's like ideas about design and interface work for you, but they don't work for a lot of people. And so for a user, you're like locked into this weird fucking game of hopscotch or whatever

over or around Apple's shit. And it's not very good. And so like at the end of the day, like if we're really honest with ourselves and if Apple's really honest with itself, it thinks it provides the best user experience, but only if you buy an entire thing. If you're like Apple's user experience ideas are the best, and they're not. They're not all the time.

And most of the time, it's just that they're not the best. Like the cloud service stuff, they still haven't figured out. So even if you get on iCloud, even if you buy into the mail, oh my god, the mail thing. It's fucking terrible.

Email sucks. Here's to you, do yourself a favor. That god, the mail's thing. It's fucking terrible. Email sucks. Here's a thing, here's do yourself a favor. That's a man who's been using keynote a lot lately. Do a deck and keynote or something, okay? And then wait for it to sink to one of your other fucking devices. Like, make it on, do it on your laptop and then wait for it to sink to your iPad. You're not like opening it up from the cloud.

It has to send the data over and dump it into a drive, a magical, you know, it's funny, like when Steve Jobs went out and talked about iCloud originally, he's like, a lot of people think of the cloud as some hard drive in the sky, and we don't think of it that way, and it's like, no, actually you think of it exactly that way, and everybody else thinks of it the other way. It's one of those weird things where anyhow, okay, we got to get off this tech conversation, okay, we've just lost so many of my new culture listeners. We needed to get to the intersection of culture. Right, we need to finally find a way to do it.

Actually, we don't have to, let's talk about it. Oh, you know, we should take a break. We have some words from our sponsors. Let's do it. Keep the, what do you, what do you, what do they keep, they keep the pro tools running? Anyway, we're gonna take a break and we'll be back with more from AxeRead. Let me introduce you to our sponsor, FrontPoint. FrontPoint is a modern home security system backed by the highest rated service in the business.

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Thank you giftagram for your support. You guys are helping keep tomorrow in business, which is really lovely. And to the listeners of tomorrow, take a look at it. You know, you've got moms, they need gifts. Gifted Graham is there. They're making life a little easier for you. Just accept it. We're back with Max Reed of Select All. All right, I want to talk a little bit about it to Topic. It's going to make you very uncomfortable and unhappy. You had a huge controversy at Gaucker about a story that you published that a lot of

people did not like. Yeah. And I said, here's your chance, Max, this is your chance, this podcast to say, to apologize to everyone for publishing that story. I know you're not going to, but I am curious. Like, I'll be honest, I think you're a great guy. I think you're super smart. I love what you do.

I do, I disagree on that story. Like I don't think a story should have existed. I don't think it should have been published. Yeah, but you have been dealing with like, when did that story go up? This is, and just to be clear, if you don't know, I'm sorry to bring up. I know this is like you're not here.

You know I love this. But it was a story about the CondiNAS CFO. I don't even, was it the CFO at the time? I mean, we put, given the, you know I'm gonna say specifically no no i mean he was it was a it was a car about it who have been having to have some kind of weird affair with the dude and he was married and kids and anyhow and at the time for whatever reason i'm not going to judge you here even the tone of my voice is, I think, very highly judgemental. Gawker thought it was like a story worth publishing. And as the editor of Gawker, you obviously had your hands on it. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. You're sweaty, nasty hands, all you did.

My gosh, the brutal hands. Yeah, it got me little, Trump-ass cans. But you know, I mean, obviously it was highly controversial. It was, you know, lots of people disagree with the publishing of it. Yeah. You, it's certainly initially stood by the publishing of it. I'm not going to, I'm not going to force you into any, you know, saying you don't. But I will say this, I'm not trying to let you have the hope. No, I'll let you talk about it in a minute. But I do think, and Joel Johnson,

I talked about this a little bit, but, you know, Gawker has a way of getting the Gawker from what I can tell from an outsider's perspective. The world of Gawker is a place where it has a way of letting people go one token over the line because the business was built on going one token over the line, right? And did you feel, I don't want to ask a loaded question, but did you feel, I don't wanna ask a loaded question, but like, did you feel a hundred percent confidence when you published that? Like, this is a slam dunk. If there's a load of questions.

It's a hard question, it's also a hard question to answer because slam dunk at Galker means something a little different than it does. You know, you're playing kind of a different game. What does it mean? Well, I mean, so here's the thing, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm wearing a getting too deep into the weeds on like what Gaukery is and

what it does because I know that most people just, they don't give a shit. They're, they thought the story sucked and they thought the story was gross and creepy and I totally understand that. And you know, I'm not interested in like trying to justify it by saying, well, you need to understand the state of media in 2015 to really know what was going on with that. But do you believe that?

Believe what? They you need to understand the state of media in 2015 to know what was going on with that. I don't think you need to understand the state of media in 2015 to have thought that story sucked. I think you need to understand the state of media in 2015 to understand how that turned into what it did. Do you think, okay, let me challenge you. Do you think you need to understand the state of media in 2015 to understand how it happened? Or do you think you need to understand the state of Galker in 2015 to understand how to? Oh, I think I think is the same thing. I think, really? Well, I think Galker, I think Galker. I would challenge that.

Well, see you again already. I'm getting into the like I'm it. I don't want to read. I'm justifying it. But let me say this, this is like your sense. What you say is right a little bit about the Togo of the Line. I think the expectation of Galker versus at most publications is that the editors push the writers and not the other way around. And it's not that at every publication writers push editors or vice versa, but I think at a lot of places the editors job is to kind of be the person who says, oh well, we got to make sure that this is cleared by everybody. I can't get up to standards. Yeah, exactly. And I think that at Galker, it's sort of like,

well, we're supposed to be, as you say, we were supposed to be provocative and controversial. We were supposed to say things that everybody knew, but that people felt too afraid to say. Right. Like that was the stated mission. We were supposed to be saying, you know, the things that journalists talk about

over beers at a bar or whatever. And part of that involves the editor, instead of being like, oh, we can't say that because we need to maintain this relationship or we can't say that because we don't wanna deal with the bullshit, the editor is saying, no, we gotta do everything, we gotta go for it. And it's not, I'm not even saying about this specific case,

I'm saying about the general culture of it, overall, like specifically with respect to my role, is to be saying we have to be chasing these, we have to my role, like, is to be saying we have to be chasing these, we have to be doing this, we have to be following this, even if people hate us. There's a certain kind of story, let's say that this thing smelled like that kind of story, and that's a story that you pursue. Because there's a gocker has an ethos, which is like expose that say the things that other

people won't say. Yes. And that doesn't mean like cross lines for the sake of cross in the lines. No, but it's blurry enough. It feels so. The line is blurry. Well, and I will say this, like when I'm saying like the slam dunk is different for a bunch of different people, is that the way Gaucker has always operated is that it says it will publish right, and actually the whole Cogantapes is a good example of this,

stuff that the vast majority of the public, genuine the beliefs is important, believes shouldn't be allowed to be published. He hates. But that Gaucker has positioned itself with not necessarily a fan base, but a group of sort of defenders within the influential,

particular influential, media sphere that allows it to persist in doing that, to keep pushing those boundaries. And I think the thing about this story last year, and this is what I mean about the slimed-unk, is that this was the story that nobody was willing to defend. There was nobody sitting there being like, not the people who would typically defend the Gaukra story, but like, you know what, there's a reason this should exist.

Exactly. And now, and so it's like Gawker found its hard limit. Yeah, the dam broke. I mean, seriously, and that was sort of, that was the end of it. And I think there's like, there's obvious, there's reasons related to the story itself, and there's reasons related to the current culture.

But like at the end of the day, like I oversaw the publication of an in-defensible story, and I regret it hugely, and that was, it was the end of my career, Galker. Have you said you regret it before? Not publicly. Is it so that I can just say? Yeah, it's a bankable moment. Publicly.

Well, you heard it here first, folks. Max Reed filled with regret over his publishing of a story on annocent Man who had nothing to hide. No, but so you know what's interesting, I think the thing about this, I totally understand it. I also understand the reaction of a lot of Gokka, there is to the pushback from the public, because Gokka is used to getting tons of pushback from the public on stories that end up actually having merit. Like I think it's important to note and by the way, I don't there's not like I'm like a Gokker fanboy. I'm definitely far away from that. But it's important to say like Gokker has actually done some really important really interesting journalism

in the last, I mean how long has Gokker been in business? Ten years, 12 years? It's been a long time. Gokers done some really good shit, an important shit, an interesting shit. And so it's easy to forget that while everybody's pissed off about this story and a couple of other stories, there's actually been, there's a real history of doing interesting things. But also, I think that what's interesting to consider about Gaucker is that it is really That it is the tabloid of the 21st century in that it's Level of exposure is so much deeper Okay, so if reality television is the tell is the new television of the 21st century Like if we had like regular scripted television for a hundred years and then reality television kind of broke through as the emergent, new and at least very popular

for a moment form of television. And our way of relating and communicating to each other in social media was the break through 21st century moment of, oh, we are different now in like a social space with one another, whereas like it was limited to physical interactions or very personal like local interactions. Cocker is kind of the expression of like what a tabloid would be in the 21st century, where the barriers, the traditional barriers that had existed, which were not that many, but it did exist.

Sure. We're torn down. In the sense that even for yourselves, you were like transparent in a way that was uncomfortable. Yeah, I mean, you're like the office. You know, if like the office, the office is like the new version of a sitcom where it's like you laugh not because like there's a punch line, but because there's like an tremendous level of discomfort.

Gawker is like the news, the tabloid version of that. I mean, there's a funny way that, and I don't, but, you know, like I want to be very clear that I think Gawker is still really good and tremendously important. Interesting. But, and I, you know, the people who are there, I have no, like, I left not amicably, but the people who are still there, I'd still, you know, I think Alex Prin is maybe the best political writer I've ever read.

He's not bad. I like Prin. But there's a way in which like Gaucker was a sort of original, and I shouldn't say just Gaucker, blogs in general were this sort of original version of social media. This kind of totally off the cuff, almost, this raw, this almost naked, conversational. Yeah, conversational, this uninhibited version of yourself that you were just putting forward all the time. And I think something weird that happened to Gaucker's place in this particular ecosystem

is that the arrival of Twitter and the rise of Twitter and of Facebook and a million other things meant that there's this bottom layer that Galker always occupied. The Galker is the place where you would go to bullshit and gossip and you believed in it and you liked it because deep down inside and our black little hearts, I think everybody does love to gossip.

Like, you know, not me except for Josh. I wouldn't, I think, God, God, shouldn't never. And wrong. But when Twitter arrived to be a position even lower than that, all of a sudden Gauker found itself in this somewhat elevated position, where it was granted a level of sort of power and a sense of responsibility that it had never assigned itself. And in fact, frankly, like, institutionally found ridiculous that it would be thought in that way. But at the end of the day, it had that.

And the truth is, like, you know, Gaucker pulls in, or when I was running, it was pulling in 16, 17 million people a month. I think it still is. I'm not saying it's worse, I've not been saying it. Max was running, it was very successful. I have no idea what to do. It's current level of success.

I think it's still doing so. I can't imagine it's doing anywhere in that. I just need to act. I'm not looking still doing so. I can't imagine it's doing anywhere in that. I just can't say. I'm not looking at the. But I'm saying there's 15, 16 million people reading it every month. That's power.

That's serious, genuine power. Yeah. I mean, Anderson Cooper reads it. You bet he does. And as a good read, he loves it. Or loves it. I'll tell you, published this post. Well, I don't think he loved it because for years before

and a little bit when I was a staff writer there, Gawker was hounding him to come out. Trying to out of it. Well, let's just kind of, no, but can we just say, let's get real for a second, okay? And I don't think this is your trip. I want to say Gawker has had a trip for a very long time

and there was a period where the trip sort of made sense and knowing like the founder and owner of Gokker, like I understand, there's a certain, like I totally understand him. And like, you know, it's by the way, if you're like 20 years old, it's almost, it's actually hard for you to remember a world, first of a non-Gokker,

a pre-Gokker world, doesn't exist for you. But also, like a world where, like homosexual out, gay being gay, was like a really where homosexual out gay being gay was like a really big fucking deal. I feel like I was the last year of that and I just wanna point out, I feel like a lot of the times, the distinction that you're talking about

is that Will and Grace was subversively funny and Glee was annoying. But that was about maybe four year difference. But that's what we're talking about. You're saying Glee is like the post, okay we gotta Glee's exist. It's like the post, we okay, we got a gaze exists. It's like, all right, you're the fuck up. I'm gonna go, but on Will Gray's, you like musicals.

Yeah. Well, Gray's you were like, ah, he's so funny, but on Glee, you were like, shut the fuck up. So, that's a, I mean, that's also great. That's great material, by the way. Yeah, that's an essay, you guys really, really is that has really something I'd like to publish. But like so, you know, people were like Ricky Martin. Is he or isn't he? And it's like, now I'm like,

who fucking can't for one who's Ricky Martin is what you would say if you're 20, like who's Ricky Martin. And two, it's like no one gives a shit. You know, but there was a period where people really gave a shit, right? And like, you know, like in Hollywood, if you were gay, like, this was a real thing. Like, yeah, if somebody was outed, it was like, the end of their career, a man, it's like, oh, he's into guys. We can no longer cast him in a role where he pretends to be into women, even like if that has worked for 20 years prior. I mean, there's still a Harrison Ford. Look at him. And his whole career is blowed apart Okay, he's very I wish very Do we all at any rate, but sorry guys well no, I was just gonna say there's still people who would argue

So like one one thing that I is is very clear to me now is that I as a straight guy and as a sort of a boringly straight guy I probably shouldn't think very hard or even really have an opinion or kind of step into this particular Meyer. There's a lot of people who still think of outing as an important political, radical political tool that there should be no such thing as the closet.

But there's also a lot of people, more people, who are like, who gives a shit. Can I just say, and I think that, I just wanna say, I think that there is like, the undercurrent of the publishing of that story and the undercurrent of money of the Galker stories is actually a belief. Yeah.

And a belief, a philosophical sort of foundational idea that if people won't out themselves, they need to be out of it. Because it furthers the cause of, of, of, of, of like equality. But what I was saying is that was true during Will and Grace. Like, when I was a teenager to find out someone was gay, was so important to me. Who was gay? He was actually gay.

I'm willing. Grace Debra Messin. Uh, well, well, Sean, he's was gay, but, but, but he was, he was the only actual gay person, but he wasn't out. And so to know that was a wheel, will not Hays was gay but but but he was I was the only actual gay person But he wasn't out and so to know that will will not gay not gay. Yeah, but it was important to me But then there came a time where it was it was more important to me that we that the public showed respect Yeah, people right even if they're in the closet, but that line change was in 2012 Maybe so you think it was that was a while ago so so so you would there was a point where you would say you would argue for I would have outed someone immediately just

with someone else would know people can have success and there's a non gay person as a mostly non gay person I feel like I wouldn't want I wouldn't want anybody to say anything about me to anybody else because that's my shit. There was a time when I thought like let's just out people and let's make this a thing. And now as somebody who's in a mature gay culture I can say, that's not necessarily true. We don't need to be like no holds barred. Right. But you're saying like brute force was necessary. Brute force is necessary when I was a teenager and there was no, I remember going to the library and looking up what gay nowadays, you don't need that.

And I can't see it from that perspective and actually hearing you say it and saying it in that way. I'm like, oh, I kind of get it. Because it's so fucked up. Because it's so fucked up for people who are living that. So, it's not like you have to be like, hey, this is like, yeah. Like if you're an ethnicity, your parents are like, yeah, where this thing, when you're a teenager, you want to find anybody.

That's interesting. So at the time, at the media, I was rooting on outing people. I was with Fred Sulton. But not in 2015. But now I feel bad. Now I feel like an asshole. I think another thing that happened was that the way, like culturally we think about sexuality changed a lot,

such that like maybe 10 years ago, we still thought about gay and straight as a real binary. And I think there's a real sense that that's, so it's like, I'm not just the only person. It's like, well, this guy, we're, are we outing him as gay? We're outing him as just sometimes he fucks dudes. Right, exactly. Exactly, and so that actually was my, not to get, So this guy, where are we outing him as gay? We have outing him. Just sometimes he fucks dudes. That's just exactly.

Exactly, and so that actually was my, not to get, no, no, we need on this. My biggest gripe about the piece was like, we don't really know, like, and you guys didn't really know. No. The details of like what it meant that he had like, a guy that he was paying for sex or whatever, who was ultimately kind of like black,

quasi blackmailing him. Yeah. Like the reality is like, we don't know, it does is, why? No, does she not know? Like there's no way of no. And it's just like, you know, because sexuality is fluid, I think, is where all discovering.

Certainly if Morrissey were here and wanted to make out with me, I would probably make out with them. I mean, the young Morrissey, not like Kern Morrissey. Oh, I mean, I'm, you know, current, it's that story. I don't know. I guess you would want to tell, you'd be like, current, more I say. Oh, I mean, I'm, you know, current, it's a story. I guess you would want to tell, you'd be like, okay, I will make out a little bit because like, it's more or even more. I'd kiss, no tongue.

No, I'd go, I'd have to go tongue. You want to know, is he getting good at kissing? At any rate, but like, yeah, so that's like an interesting point is that is or whoever just made the point about sexuality being relatively fluid. So our whole perspective, like my daughter will not live in a world where she will laugh, her ass off, I think, when people are like,

we used to be really worried about who was into guys and who was into girls. I hope so. I mean, it's already happening. Like, if you live in New York for sure, you meet people all the time and they're like, no, whatever, who gives a shit? Nobody gives a shit. I will say the one other thing I'll say is that one particular thing is about this case

and about the cases like the outing that Galker has done in the past is that since the, let's say 2012, is that what you said right? And like the 2012 line, which we'll just sort of arbitrarily say is the moment at which outing switched from... I'm just talking about when I graduated college, but absolutely, I think that was near. I think that was the paradigm, is when Ryan graduate college. Well, so that at some point,

after the point where like outing just anybody in power became fair game, it was still sort of fair game, and fair game is such a weird thing because there's a host of reactions here. It was still fair game to out people who were in positions of influence in terms of the politics, for example. So like Galker wrote a lot about Chepp Smith, who is gay and who has a boyfriend and wait a second. Fox News is Chepp Smith. Fox News is Chepp Smith. He's gay. Next thing you'll tell me one of their anchors is in Scientology. What? What?

Who? Right. Wait, who? Um, um, Greta van Sashdren, who's the biggest major Scientologist. Greta van Sashdren, who's the biggest major Scientologist. But, but she does pieces about the war on Christmas. So, I was just, who was I just, listen to something, but oh, Juliet Lewis just did a Stern interview and talked about being like a Scientologist.

She's a Scientologist? I didn't know that either. I was like, oh, that's so surprised. So lovely. Oh, Lewis, man, that's so cute. You know what? I'll never watch the other sister the same way again. Well, Giovanni Robici is a major Scientologist.

Also, a huge Scientologist. And can I just say something? You know what? And the way she says it, you know, everybody has their own relationship with spirituality and belief. And you know, she has hers that's grounded in Scientology, which was created by Al- Hubbard and works on child like 40 years ago. Can you blame celebrities for being

Scientologists when they get the motorcycles and the cruises and they don't ever have to be child slips and they don't even know. I don't know about this child's slavery but it seems like Scientology is like a pretty good gig. Like it's a library Scientology. It's a library Scientology. I don't know about the rest of it. I don't know about the rest of it, but I've met some Scientologists, having met and spent some quality time with Tom Cruise, which 20 minutes in a green room. I guess Scientology looks pretty good from here. And he look so young.

He looks 10 years younger than you. You know, you joke, but that guy is a fucking god walking. Yes, or he's a machine. He's like, you've just seen maybe God. Yeah, according to psychology, he actually is. What level oper- what O.T. level? He's clear, which is above O.T. 8, which means he can move stuff with his mind. He is.

He says, oh my god, he can move stuff with his mind. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is. He can tell you how it is Give him a fucking break, man. Anyhow, okay. Shepsmith, back to Shepsmith. No, I just that, you know, like the question of outing was sort of, I don't wanna say settled, but like it's a weird spectrum and a weird continuum that has a set of politics that Gaucker has actually been at the center of for a long time and that, you know, had I been a better editor and a smarter person, I would have been a lot smarter about navigating back then.

I wanna be clear to, while I'm on the record that, yes, this story is my fault, and the buck's top of me, and wow, in every way. Does have you said this publicly? I'm more than happy to say it publicly. It was, let me ask you a question. Do you regret publishing? You already said that.

Yeah. Having to do it over again, you would not publish the story. Sorry, I don't want to put words in your mouth. No, no, here's what I would say. I regret publishing it the way it was published, and at the time it was published. I, the thing I don't put words in your mouth. No, no, here's what I would say. I regret publishing it the way it was published and at the time it was published. The thing I have said, and because I hate this kind of, I hate doing the like, if I was in that position again,

what I do the same thing, because you don't like that. Well, I don't know, it's this, like I get it. And I'm like, I believe me, I have relived that day many times in my memory, but it feels like I've kind of, I have a lot of information now that I didn't then. It's unfair. It's unfair to the guy on the day. I will say we-

The unfair to the old Max. It's a old Max. Max who didn't know how dumb a movie was involved in this story. Innocent Max. I will say this, we hustled to get the story done for a bunch of dumb reasons. And if we had been,

if I, the thing I should have done as the editor and something that I will take with me forever is I should have sat down and said, we need to sleep on this. And we're gonna wake up tomorrow morning, we're gonna read this with fresh eyes and we're gonna think about what we're actually doing here and adjust as necessary.

And, you know, I think there was, there was like a lot of kind of, we just need to make sure that it's true and get it out there. And that ended up actually being the worst possible thing with this story because what mattered a lot less than the question of its truth was the question of how was being positioned and sold and put out there.

And that, I mean, that's the thing I regret more than anything else is not, as an editor, is not protecting my writer, not protecting the institution that I was in charge of, not thinking about how the thing that we thought was important was going to be received by our reading public. Because in the end, like, as an editor, your job is to do those things, is to protect your writer, is to protect the thing you're in charge of, and it's to make sure that your readers, like your core readership, the people who love you, the people who want you are going to receive the thing you're writing and get it and care about it

and it's gonna of meaningfully affect them. It speaks to them. And I feel like I failed in all three of those respects. Wow, this is very quotable stuff. I can't wait to see the many, many news stories. Well, I figure we're what, like 40 minutes into this so everybody's gonna be fine. Oh, I think I'll weigh beyond 40,

where everybody's stopped. I don't know how far, how far into it are we? We're a solid 40 minutes into this so everybody's 40 all I think are way beyond 40 where everybody's stopped. I don't know how far how far into it. We're a solid hour before edit Ryan, let me ask you a question as a gay man. I think you're a gay man. I don't know. Well, you know, it depends on the day. You you know the story. Yes. What was your reaction to it? I had just you can be brutal right? I don't I mean, I've heard it all. Yeah, just give this guy First I said this is juicy as fucking I read it Then I thought about I had just read John Ronson's book To be publicly shamed and I don't love John Ronson

But I liked the idea of the book and what I thought was interesting was you talking about Gawker having been the original Twitter in a way was that the idea was that we were published It people thought you were publicly shaming somebody rather than reporting. And you felt like when some people turned on you, they were publicly shaming you for doing your job. And the layers of learning in public was interesting to me because we don't let people learn in public anymore. And it was your job to hold people to you were an idiot. And then you were held as an idiot. Totally. What I felt was, and still how I feel, is that things changed and you were the person to

tell us, or you were the example to tell us. And that sucks. So there should have been a little bit more leeway. Do you feel like you were not to be over dramatic and also not to undervalue what happened to the person you reported on? Do you feel your you were kind of burned at the stake for something? No, I actually don't. I personally, I mean, I got some shit in the neck. Glenn, you're under the bus. A little bit. No, no comment. No comment means yes, it goes contest. Glenn Greenwald wrote like a big thing that is still in my Google results

that I'm still annoyed about. But the person that I, like the people who sort of ended up getting really screwed for a set of decisions I made were my boss, Tommy Craigs, who went to the mat for me and who like, you know, ended up resigning over, essentially over a completely different issue but one that ran up against this terrible story.

The writer, George and Sardin, who is the one who I assigned the story to and who, you know, I don't think would have written, or wanted to write it like this, or would have written it like this if he had been given any kind of sort of more leeway or more choice, or if I hadn't, you know, been pushing him. So in that sense, it's sort of like, I feel what I got, I brought on myself. And at the end of the day, I hate to, I don't wanna underestimate harassment on the internet,

I don't want it, but I kind of buy into the title of the creator, closer eyes, like walk away from the screen, like I can't pretend that I lost sleep, but I probably deserve to lose sleep. That's the kind of thing. But did you feel like, at some point when you say something went wrong and we hear you, did you feel like, okay, that's that? We hear you, it's enough.

I think, so my preference, what I would have done, or what I wish we had done, is, I don't think we should have issued an apology, actually. I think we should have brought in a third party to run an ombudsman kind of, I think it's the kind of thing where once we once we'd involved ourselves we were involved and there was nothing we could do or say or do anything with it was going to change that. So like to your point, it would be great if we lived in a world where saying, we hear you, we're so sorry, stopped the Twitter thing, but it's not ever going to, I think that- Okay, hold on, I'm gonna challenge you a little bit. Okay. Because we're getting into it now and I brought Ryan into it and I thought you made some really but it's not ever going to, I think that- Okay, hold on, I'm gonna challenge you a little bit. Okay.

Because we're getting into it now. And I brought Ryan into it and I thought you made some really good points just now. Like, you could have been like, you know what? I mean, you could have done a full make, Albin said, this was the wrong story to publish and the wrong way to publish it and pulled it down or redacted it.

I mean, eventually Nick did pull it. Yeah. But you could have said as the editor Well, so I actually defended it because initially you defended the story But you could have but you know you could have said you know what? I've had 24 hours reflected this or six hours or whatever Well, I did it to be clear. I didn't even have 24 hours. I was I was I was the fan 12 But they should hit the fan in like six. Yeah, oh, it was really bad, really.

I mean, I was at a party at Nick's apartment that night with a bunch of other Galker writers and editors when we realized, and I tweeted, which was a very dumb, this is like Glenn Greenwald again, not to call him out because he said, I hugely respect him, and I obviously listened to the podcast. I wouldn't want to, I'm sure Glenn is listening right now. But I, you know, he wrote an entire post about my tweet,

which I, and I, I regret the tweet as much as anything else. It was a stupid way to respond to it. This is the tweet that was like, it was like, it was like, it was like, given the chance, Gakka will always report on a married media executive fucking around on his wife.

Right. Which is, which was true at the time and very not true now. And, but also was true like, for Gakcker in 2009. And it might not have been true for Gau, it turned out to not be very true for Gaucker. But like you had to learn that,

let's see somebody there had to learn the lesson. Well, I mean, I will say in, somebody could have also assumed that it was true. I mean, it's also the, just say like you could have been like, okay, actually let's look at this, not you, but there were a lot of other people at home. Well, so I will say, so the things I will say about

the question should I say, I'm so sorry, and all this is, like one, this happened extremely quickly. And I don't, you know, you've been, I did, it was very quick. In this, at the center of certain kinds of, like, and institutions don't respond well quickly to stuff, and you're dealing with internal politics in a way that you didn't realize you were.

And so, but I also think, even at the time, and in fact, especially at the time, it felt then the one of the biggest reason that we objected to pulling the bus down besides the fact that sort of business interests were given to say in it is that you can't make a name for yourself as the guy throwing bombs. And then the minute you throw a bomb, you're like,

oh my god, I'm so fucking sorry. Like I'm so, like, look, take your lumps. You stand there, and this is why I'm saying you hire Eric Wemple or somebody, you find somebody smart who'd went before. Who was willing, well, I don't know, he was just, you became a gocker story. You did immediately.

I mean, it was in some way probably a lot. It was a lot of, and it was inevitable, I think, too. And I guess my point, more to the point is like, there's a lot to say about maybe we should have said sorry, maybe we should have figured out a way to handle it, but the taking it down felt like a bridge way too far. That if we stood for anything, it was, it was like, when we fucked up, we stood up

and we let people shit at us. And trying to hide that, trying to sweep it under the rug. And especially, I will say to the other context of this is that we made a huge, we made a lot out of Buzzfeed taking down a number of, a huge number of posts earlier in a year. Which is like, the last thing you want to do is spend all through time dancing on those posts, grave, and they'd be like, oh, but we fucked up too. So now we're gonna do this thing. Well, okay, yeah.

And by the way, we can talk about this for hours and I don't want to. Yeah, I think you're like, I'm sure you should. I know. I can't not talk. I mean, I've spent so much time thinking about it too. And I actually didn't, and I don't,

here's what I think about it ultimately, is that people fuck up. I'm not saying like, hey, you fucked up. People make decisions that aren't the best decisions, and then like, we all, life goes on. And there's nobody in this world who hasn't made a decision they regretted or went back and said, oh, you know what,

I could have been more nuanced in my, whatever, my goal was not to like, rake you, because I think you're a very talented smart guy. And like in the grand scheme of things, this is like a very minor, like whatever, miscalculation, if anything. We'll see. Well, we will see, won't we?

But I think it's like, you know, when you're in a time, in a place, in an environment, there's a certain culture, it's like really hard. Like in that moment, in a place, in an environment, there's a certain culture, it's like really hard. Like in that moment, it's really hard to be like, oh, I see the universe. I have zoomed out of the universe, and I see it as it is, and like,

I'm gonna make all the right decisions. Like it's very fucking hard, especially in a newsroom, especially in, well, this is 2015, but in a modern newsroom. And this is actually like, this just happened with the Daily News and the Sean King stuff. Yeah, where it's like There's a breakneck pace and you guys wrote about it actually on select all yeah slash following. Yeah So breakneck pace. There's like technology that gets in the way of you doing your job or helps you do your job

And maybe you don't like know all about that technology and like the reality is that that the like There's a way like in a different age this kind of Like the reality is that, like, there's a way, like in a different age, this kind of story would have been contained in a way that was like, you could deal with. Yeah. Like that everybody could deal with. Yeah.

In our age, it's like, there is no, it's just like the gasoline, the floor is soaked with gasoline. And it's just, we're just waiting for somebody to drop a match. Yeah. And once the match is dropped, like everything is on fire for as long as possible. And like there isn't, you don't get like,

there's nobody, there's no extinguisher, there's no bucket of water. And I will say too, I mean, one thing about Galker in particular is that it has built up a 12 year store of enemies who are more than happy to come out of any of that. 12 years of gasoline. Yeah.

And like, look, I mean, you say that it's really hard in a newsroom to sort of figure out what the culture is and gasoline. Yeah, and like look, I mean, I, you say that it's really hard in a newsroom to sort of figure out what the culture is and be able to, and like the, the final thing I will say about it is that, and this is the meoculpa is finally as the editor, right, that's my job. The, the, the, the sort of the final job of somebody who's in charge of something is to step back for a minute and say, you know what, like, this is, this is not the way we should be going about this. And the fact that I wasn't able to do it was, as good a reason as any to walk away from Gokker. Like, you know, if you can't handle that particular kind of heat,

if you can't handle that particular kind of pressure, because if you can't literally be burned alive, the middle of gasoline soaked room, get out of the room. But that's why it makes somebody who, I'm not naming names with somebody who owns a publication saying the buck stops there.

Look a little silly, right? Well, I mean, this is like, this is the, this is always the dynamic between publishers and editors. And I, this is like, this is just the way it works. There's somebody's writing somebody under it. Yeah, there's always a bus and there's always somebody underneath it.

And, you know, beautiful. I mean, look, and the thing is too, I can't, like, I want to be clear, I'm also not complaining. I have a phenomenal job now. Like, I feel like, beautiful. I mean, look, and the thing is too, I can't, like I wanna be clear, I'm also not complaining, I have a phenomenal job now, like I feel like, as these things go, I have landed very much on my feet, like this is not like, oh, I'm so sad, Nick, fuck me over, like this is the way it should have happened

in the way it was happening. I'm sorry, I think we spent a lot of time on this and I didn't actually be an intent to, I was kinda kinda like, let's talk about, it's for two people who care about this stuff, it is really interesting. I wanted to talk about, let's switch gears really quickly. I know we got a wrap up.

I want to talk about the state of, this actually has a good segue. Yeah. It probably could place a leave at like the state of media. I mean, this is our world. Yeah. You know, and I just wrote something about it. We talked about it a little bit before we get started. Or maybe I don't remember if we were actually recorded at that point

But I wrote this thing about like, you know, the media landscape, which is actually like a pretty depressing Yeah, if you're in it. Yeah, I don't know But I also think if you're not in it, it's depressing and and part of it, you know, I wrote this thing on medium I'm not trying to be self-promotion. I just want to say But people should I recommend that people read it ever first thing I've written on medium I wrote this thing on Medium. I'm not trying to be self-promote. I just want to say. But people should, I recommend that people read it. Ever heard of this. The first thing I've written on Medium, which I've avoided,

which I could talk about actually kind of goes in line with my problems with modern media. I think Medium's interesting and good in some ways and also horrible in other ways. But I just basically wrote what I thought was wrong with Media in 2016 and that we are looking for the sort of magic trick to solve those problems. And I'm curious, like having, you've been through a particular, like a particularly rough part of, like you've been, Gawker has always been, first off, like it's very much of like

the new world. Yeah. In the sense that Gawker is always been, first off, it's very much of the new world. In the sense that Gawker is from scratch. Totally. It's not the New York Times, it's not the Atlantic. It is something that just happened very recently. It's one of the most new, meaningful media organizations we've had, independent media organizations that we've had.

I mean, actually, find an equivalent. By the way, I don't wanna give Gokka a ton of credit because I should think Gokka does it. I'm like, this sucks, but there's also a lot that they've done and that Nick has done that is really laudable and important. And so you cannot deny the value of something like that. And in fact, when I look at Gokka,

I kind of, when I look at the landscape and Gawker and landscape, I'm more in the promise that a Gawker provided, which is that we were going to build new independent media organizations that did things differently, spoke differently, used technology differently than the organizations that existed. And I feel like we're in a place now where the threat to that existing is probably the most important problem that we have to solve. Yeah, that's my opinion. I think the problem is that, you know, and this is something you sort of spoke to,

the systems that create and sustain media right now are so brutal and so difficult to overcome. No matter how smart and good and funny and intelligent you are, the scale at which media now needs to exist, and this is the thing I thought was great about your medium post is something that maybe doesn't come up often enough and should come up more is that when we talk about the level, the size of audience, you have to sustain to be a successful independent media company. You're talking about 16 to 20 million people monthly, and that's enormous. I mean, that's been so many people.

So many people. At its peak, subscriber-based time magazine had five million subscribers in America. And look, time magazine. Five million subscribers is she would shit on it now. If somebody told you I've got five million unique, they'd be like, that's nice. Yeah, who cares? But this is one reason why podcasts are so interesting right now is podcasts have managed

to sort of figure out a way to make a little bit of money, you know, pointing only towards a fairly small segment of people. One thing I was sort of obsessed with, and this is like, you know, is the idea of how many, so if you want to write something smart, if you want to do something smart, what's the size of audience you can actually expect on a monthly basis? When we were at Gawker, we used to say it was like 10 million. I actually think it's a little smaller than that. But I also think the other part of it is like, you can't just say, oh, we're going to do something smart and whatever it is is going to be smart. You have to think about like, okay, we're

smart. Like, I was talking with a really smart editor at New York, Genevieve Smith, and she was saying, well, it's not just being smart, Cat Fancy was the biggest magazine in the United States for a long time, or one of the biggest. Maybe not the biggest, but one of the biggest. It was enormously successful. She's running bullshit on you. Cat Fancy was in, I, she didn't say that.

I wanna be clear, guys. I wanna imcat Fancy's success. I believe it does, maybe as a website. I don't know. But the point is that, like, what it, I don't think so. clear. I want to imcatfancy's success. I believe it does, maybe it's a website. But the point is that like, I don't think so. What catfancy has. Really nice pictures of cats, like, no, that's not so. No, but here's the thing is,

this is what you don't understand is that catfancy had an audience. It had serious cat enthusiasts. I believe it. And that was what made catfancy successful. Now turns out everybody's this serious cat enthusiasts. Well, people like pictures at least, to be a real-inducent.

They like moving pictures more than anything. But I guess my point is that the problem we're facing now is that you have to find an audience of, you know, 15 to 20 million people to have a sustainable independent publication. But you have, which means you have to be kind of, as you said in your post, you have to be for everyone. Meanwhile, you're competing with Facebook, which has an audience of one and a half billion people, but which is tailored for every individual user. And tailored very, actually, you know, I can plan about Facebook, tailored very well. Their ability to target actual audiences is really good.

Right. So media companies are stuck in this horrible middle where they have to both reach for a huge number of people while also trying to tailor it for each one of those people. Whereas Facebook is reaching for way more people and tailoring it way more specifically. And now nobody's ever gonna say that Facebook is as good as a great, as New York magazine, as a great publication.

Like, but when you're waiting in line, Facebook's gonna have new stuff, because it has that. I actually think Facebook has a problem with new stuff. I mean, well, as a new feed, their new feed like is tends to be quite repetitive. No, that's true. And they're having trouble. Their newsfeed, like, is tends to be quite repetitive. No, that's true. And they're having trouble.

And the most optimistic I can be is thinking that, like, people, the sort of the rise of context collapse means that people are kind of ceasing the frequent posting of Facebook. I mean, I was saying earlier on the podcast, like, I spend more time in my group messages on I message and in my slacks and group meetings and whatever, then I do, you know, on Facebook these days. I think a lot of people do. Yeah. But, well, sorry.

No, go ahead. No, and so I think that the Facebook, there's a potential sort of like, you know, Facebook could potentially, like the Facebook newsfeed. Let's not say Facebook as a company, because Facebook as a company is means a million different things and Messenger will be around forever. But the newsfeed is like the Facebook newsfeed. Let's not say Facebook as a company, because Facebook as a company means a million different things and the messenger will be around forever.

But the newsfeed is like the great competitor to media organizations. There's a chance that it could be not toppled but diminished in influence and in competitive power. But I think it doesn't mean that the challenge goes away. Because it's also like the question is, how can you make a publication that is as compelling as, you know, chatting with your friends,

you know, gossiping with your friends, like hearing about new things from people you love and care about? And I think it's possible. I don't think it's impossible. I'm optimistic enough to think that like, in fact, I know that I've written things that are better than texts that my friends have gotten.

Right. But I also know that the tech, well, well, you know, I've gotten some really good texts in my pretty... I've got some great texts. Good circle. But I also know that the texts are easy to generate and free, and will always come. Right. And also have like an incredible personal nature that is not like a story.

Yeah. I mean, that's like the best story is to reach you on a personal level, but to not like about like going to the movies. Right, exactly. Yeah, it's like JD Salinger did a book about, and you know, like you guys going to see the Force Awakens.

No, it should be a fucking thing. I mean, I would love to read the The Challenger Force Awakens book. Yeah, but I do a hard art there, didn't I? Salinger, the Challenger. You know, he's a hard art there, didn't I? Salinger, challenger. You know, he's a guy who doesn't like to have his face seen and he doesn't like his name pronounced right there. There's a biography coming out and it has the worst title,

a biography, a biography movie, I think, and it's called The Rebel in the Rye. That's fucking terrible. That is the worst title in the entire world. And I hate to do this, but we have to wrap up. That's fine. We spent a lot of time talking hopefully not too much about um one thing that you did a bunch of people like well i'm hoping that everybody tuned out what would you start talking about phones i hope so Ryan do we spend too

much time on that i think i think it's a declaration of look i learned my one mistake and now read my blog it's perfect anyhow max you can find him on selectorall.com, aka, NY Mag slash selectorall. That's right. He's also on Twitter at max read. underscored, max underscore read. Didn't know that, didn't care. I guess I follow you, but it's hard to say.

You can find him on Facebook at max read. Just no ad, but just four thoughts, you know, Facebook. Oh, Max is short for Malcolm. Oh, interesting. Really? Yeah, okay, not max a million. Nope.

That's what I say in our home when I talk about you, I mean, you're welcome to people. People you people do it. How often you bring him up in a full, pretty often. Actually, well, he and Laura are very close. So I hear a lot about Matt. We didn't say the beginning, the full disclosure is that Laura is a co-organizer of IRL club. So, you know, full disclosure is that Laura is a co-organizer of IRL club. That's true. Laura is a co-organizer of IRL club with Max

Malcolm. Malcolm Reed. Malcolm Reed. And so I hear a lot about him because they're always chatting. Anyhow, Max, thank you for coming on. You've got to come back. I would love to. I'd like to continue this conversation, particularly about media and not berate you for half of it. It's important to be berated every once in a while. Oh, you don't feel like I was too hard on you. Not at all. I'm sorry, it just happened. No, quite out of my control.

I want to be very clear. I want to be very clear. It has been a, it's, you know, what? Almost a year now of being genuinely berated by much, you know, worst people. And fuck those people, as I just want to say. So thank you for coming on and do come back. know, worst people. And fuck those people, as I just want to say. So thank you for coming on. Thank you.

And do come back. Yeah, thanks, man. Thanks. Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best that a story has just been published about your family on Gokker.

And it's very bad. Very, very bad.