Tomorrow - Episode 54: Tough Love with Paul Miller

Episode Date: May 23, 2016

It's the year 2019... Josh: Can you play Tomorrow, episode 54? It's one of my favorites. A jam session with our old pal Paul Miller! Bot: Did you mean "Bowl Fillers"? Josh: No, bot! I said we did a podcast with a former editor from The Verge, who's now one of the top commanders in the Pennsylvania Freemen Army. We discussed some old Google news, bots (like you), the value of what we used to think of as "the government," and more! Bot: Googling new True Value stores near the government that sell doors. Josh: I can't believe we still haven't figured out bots or voice recognition in 2019... even after President Trump created those information worker reassignment camps. How about you just queue up that episode for me? It's a real classic! Bot: Did you mean "Resident Bump's twerker stamps"? I'm searching for that now. Josh: Bot, I hate you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow on your host Josh Wittipolsky. Today in the podcast we discuss Peacup Projectors, Big Government and Allo. I don't want to waste one minute, so let's get right into it. My guest today is a man who used to be a reduction, certainly if you're a failure tomorrow, but I'm going to give him an introduction anyhow. He's an old friend. One of my oldest friends, a great man, a complex man, a former and now current editor at theverge.com, former Engaget editor, and always great individual. I'm of course talking about Paul Miller. Paul, thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me, Josh. It's a real distinct pleasure. It sounds like we're being very sarcastic. You're like, thanks for having me. I'm like, it's really great to have you here. Oh, yeah. I'm grabbing a great time already. You know what, this is so fun. I wish you were on the podcast all the time. I'm like, it's really great to have you here. Oh, yeah. I'm grabbing a great time already. You know what, this is so fun. I wish you were on the podcast all the time. I wanna preface this podcast by saying that I'm like kind of losing my voice as you may be able to tell.

So this is gonna be kind of a deeper, sexier version of the tomorrow podcast. And then you're cool with that, right? Yeah, absolutely. Anyhow, so Paul, you've been very active lately. We haven't talked. We have not, I just want to say Paul and I have not, we've talked a little bit here in the studio, but we haven't chatted since Paul went back to the Virgin and is now a gadget blogger again returning to his roots. Right. We're running like a couple months before that I ran into you on the street. That's right. So how? Yes. And

then you never returned any of my calls. Did you call me? I don't think you've ever called. No, I never called you. Right, so it's very difficult to return a call that's never received, I think you all agree. But I think you emailed me or texted me. It texted back and forth.

And I was, it's been a very busy time. Right. And you're so busy doing something. Well, you know, I have a family. Oh, all right. You know, and look, those tweets aren't going to, I'm going to tweet themselves. Yeah, someone's got to buy all the prives. Although I did Oh, all right. You know, and look, those tweets aren't gonna, I'm gonna tweet themselves. Yeah.

Someone's gotta buy all the prives. Although I did, that's right, who's gonna, who's gonna buy this, how, who else gonna keep Blackberry in business? If you don't know, I bought a Blackberry for no reason whatsoever. I saw somebody, I had a meeting with somebody and they had it and I was like, oh, I kinda know why,

I just want, I just want one. And you know, what, what Joshy wants, Joshy gets gets now also I'm afraid to myself a Joshy guy like something I want you to know So just get your head around that just come with it anyhow, so you're back. Let's talk about let's get this Let's get the elephant in the room. Let's put the elephant out of the room by addressing it Because it's everyone does when you need to get an elephant out of a room, the best thing to do is to talk about it. Yeah. Let's say you walk into your parlor. Right.

Which is where I imagine the elephant is usually located in your Victorian area. I don't know. Okay. Here's the thing though, the whole, that whole, what is that called? It's not an analogy. Metaphor. That metaphor is about talking about the elephant in the room

It's not about getting the elephant out of the room. That's true. It's not like it's not like I'm dressing it Yeah, it's because the elephant's so big and we're all standing around like pretending like there's not a huge elephant here Exactly, but it's interesting because I you eventually we do need to get the elephant out of the room You think the conversation immediately turned to you. Okay. Let's get serious. We have an elephant Yeah, yeah, we have to get first off how to get the alpha out of the room. You think the conversation immediately turns you, okay, let's get serious. We have an elephant here. Yeah, yeah. And we have to get, first off, how did it get here? So you do have to bring it up. Where did it come from?

But then you got to get down to like, get it in the middle. What do we do? Going out the window, do we need to get it in? Safety. We're going to air lift it out of here. Dumb-o-drop. Yeah, this is, this is Dumb-o-drop 2.0.

Yeah. I don't know. That sounds like a movie I'd watch. It's like a cyber. I would. Cyber Dumb-o-drop? Dumb-o-drop 2.0. It's like D watch. It's like a cyber. Cyber Dumb-O-Drop? Dumb-O-Drop 2.0. It's like Dumb-O-Drop VR. Dumb-O-Drop VR. Like Web 2.0, a Dumb-O-Drop.

Got a lot of Ruby on Rails startups. No, it's something like, I don't know, some tech genius, like an Elon Musk character, came up with the, he's trying to do something like breed elephants for like sport and it's a dark. This is a much darker Dumbodrop. What if Dumbodrop people like got it They have to get all the elephants that he's breeding out of his clutches or he can't make anymore and So fast so they have to extract elephants

Really really fast using like a like a high rate of a crazy military helicopter and High volume Oh, large like a very large helicopter. Well, no, it's just a gigantic helicopter. We could hold like a hundred elephants Okay, how come they're really huge helicopter like why don't they just make bigger things? Like there's no reason why we couldn't hypothetically make a much larger helicopter. I think that our actual car, like a gigantic car. No, no, like they tried that, the hard hues. You can make a car that took up.

They made a Leonardo DiCaprio movie and they're making two big of things. You can make a car that took up two lanes though. Oh yeah, totally. But it was the scale, right? It was a scaled up car. Yeah, that'd be cool. I mean, people would be like, whoa shit.

But look, I'm making the exact replica of Mercedes. Twice the size. Twice the size of a regular. It's called a Hummer, and it was very popular for a year. No, but the Hummer's like a thing. I'm saying like, it's a regular looking car. It's a Civic. It's a huge Civic. One person has to stand on the seat to steer and the other

person has to like operate the pedals. And this steering wheel is like, I mean, it's what is it's like this big? Yeah. I mean, you can't see what I'm doing because you're listening to this. But let's just say I'm making it some pretty hilarious hand motions. It looks like you're milking two cows. Are they cows? Oh, okay. Let's get back on topic. Now, you're at the verge, gadget blogging. Oh, so we ran into each other on the street, and then I did, it was a jerk. I mean, I think you probably were like, a little jerk.

I wasn't a jerk, I just didn't want to talk to you. I mean, what are you gonna do? No, I'm just very bad at communicating with people, I think, is you know. I did want to go, you were doing an art gallery or something. Yeah, that's still, is it happening? Probably open. Is it like cyber art, digital art?

Yeah, it's mostly digital art. There's like a, we are doing the EARL version of a virtual art gallery tonight is what's happening at the art. So you're saying there's a virtual art gallery in cyberspace and you're recreating that art gallery. I have no idea what we're doing with it. But somehow it is in the art gallery tonight. Are you going, are you just after this? Are you going to the gallery? I'm basically like

security. So yeah. So attention, you can rob this gallery if you want. No. No, because Paul Miller is doing security. Be packing, you got, you got a weapon. It's like people like, people like to talk a little too loud. And it's so ho, it's killing. Yeah, could you mind? It's my neighbors are. Yeah, the neighbors, the co-op.

You gotta use the neighbors as the excuse, right? Well, it's very collot of that. Very chic. Also sometimes I sweep the art gallery before an opening. That's a lot of that. Our janitor. Yeah, a little bit. Is this a type of performance artist?

Is this just you? The kind of the whole thing is like that me and my buddy have art gallery is performance artist. I don't understand. How do you pay for the art gallery? It's complicated. That sounds very suspicious. We so much talk about listening to this gadget block. Let's get to this gadget block, shit.

All right, tell me what's going on. I'm, of course, very surprised. Yeah, I circuit break it. I called Neelai Patel. Yeah. And I was like, I need a job. Uh-huh. And he, it's like, it's just so happy.

I was hanging out with Deeter. Deeter Bow. Deeter Bow. He was like, we want to start so hot. I was hanging out with Deeter. Deeter-bound. Deeter-bound zone. He was like, we wanna start a gadget blog. And I'm like, okay, I'll do the gadget blog. It's synergistic. Yeah, it worked out. So we started a gadget blog and I run the gadget blog

and it's just all about gadgets. Now, is it true or not that you started this gadget blog because it's been a lifelong dream to cover a peak of projectors. Do you love peak of projectors? I'm actually trying to get there's this watch that has a built-in projector and it can like project like the interface onto your hand. You still have to touch the screen.

That's the future. That's the future. That's the future. Now, I just want to say we had a huge debate at the beginning of trying to figure out what the verge is going to be. I think peak of projectors were in this debate. I want to say that you were like, we were like, what's going to be in the database of gadgets that we cover? Like, what are we going to cover? Oh, yeah, the database.

We were figuring out like, what are the things we want wanna slot in there and that we don't care about? Like, it's like, you know, this was coming from the era of things like PMPs, which were like personal media players that were like, there were all kinds of weird funky Chinese versions of like, it's got like video games but it also plays music or whatever, like RIO. I'm just basically an MP3 player. You can end up with too many of the same thing.

And also a lot of things that don't matter. Yes, right. So Pico projectors was one of those on. We were on the fence. And I think you pushed very hard for Pico projectors. Did I succeed? I don't think we covered them. And then, and then, you know, there was like a, I had a more notorious on routers. Now, I know you're covering routers. A little bit. So what I find exciting about this guys about routers, apparently there's like a new wireless standard. There is a people ID like YGB. Yeah, yeah.

Routers are actually range high speed. You know, like there's always something. I think that's the thing is like people like to get like jaded about a category like routers. I'm seeing it all for this category, you know. But it turns out, it's truth about routers is there are a bunch of weird new routers that, yeah, there's all these weird smart routers now

because routers have historically sucked completely. Right, and I think these people are trying to improve them. They still do that, right? So basically what almost every gadget that goes on circuit breaker is right now is it's a Kickstarter project that puts a computer in a thing that already existed but didn't have a computer in it yet and you control that computer with an app on your phone. I'll tell you what I'm excited about. I think there's a bunch of like Kickstarter's. I think they've already

been funded that are like let you turn your window air conditioner or your split system air conditioner into like a connected device. Do you know what I'm talking about? Like they are essentially an IR blaster with Wi-Fi. So you can take like a dumb air conditioner and turn it into like a smart air conditioner. That's a very exciting idea to me. I have that and New York City gives them away for free.

What? Yeah, you can get them for free through the city and they pay you like in gift cards. There's like an app. Yeah, I have an app on my phone. We get several remotes. And you put it in the room and you can control your air conditioner. You plug it in to the wall and you plug the air conditioner into that

and then you connect it over Wi-Fi and then it just turns it on and off depending on what the needs are. It does have the temperature? Yeah, it'll set the temperature. Oh my God. They give them away. New York City has a program called like, it's like energy on YC or something.

More of the nanny state. I know how you feel about that, Paul. Very upset about this. Although you're probably like, why do you get one of those? It's why I have a question. Yeah. I like this back.

The fricker was announced in the New York Times. And then it launched, that was on a Sunday. And then on Monday, we launched. Yeah. And then either that Monday or Tuesday, I forget you put up a post on medium about the search for like the new thing. Yes. Yes.

And I didn't know if you were sub sub subb-sub-sub-sub-sub-writing you. Sub-writing us. No, you have, actually it's funny, because as you started to ask this question, it's just God's honest truth. It, I completely forgot that those two things were anywhere near each other. And I was like, oh, I never thought of that.

I was not sub-anything anybody. I was sub-anything in lots of people. I was not sub anything in anybody. I was sub anything in lots of people. The whole industry. Mainly the entirety of the media industry and also most of the people who invest in the media industry. Right. But no, I feel like if I was going to sub dis surger breaker, I would have mentioned

partnerships with Facebook and I don't think I did. Oh, because that's what it sounded like you were referring to in this big push from Facebook live. Well, the Facebook live thing is part of the problem, but what my actual piece was like, is like Facebook live is fine. It's okay. And by the way, I don't think Vox suffers from this nearly as acutely as a lot of other people do.

There are elements of what where Vox does suffer from it, Vox suffers from this nearly as acutely as a lot of other people do. There are elements of what Vox does suffer from it, Vox media. But I was basically like, with the media industry needs to stop acting like somebody else, like we can outsource innovation to other people. Because like that has led us to a place where we have almost no control. It's not just about having control over how you tell a story

or where you tell a story or why you tell a story or whatever, but it also affects the stories you tell, the audiences you reach, what you perceive as your audience. All of these things are connected. You start over here and then you end up over here and the media industry is always like, how do we get there? It's like, remember in 2011 when iPads were going to save magazines, We're like, oh my God, we're gonna do an iPad magazine, you know?

This happens every... All the fucking time, we're like... Face people are like, finally Facebook live, you know? People are like, well, I got all this traffic on Facebook, but now it's starting to slow down and they're like, oh shit, Facebook gave us Facebook live, they really want us to use it, like, we should just go do that, VR. We should do some VR stuff,. Like yeah, you should definitely use

some VR stuff for these zero percent of people who actually will see it. So yeah, so what's, but by the way, I don't think you shouldn't, I don't think you should not experiment with VR, but like of all the things I've seen people do with VR, there's like one percent of them that's really interested in. Interesting and, and this has been a thing for,

this is important for me for my, like as a larger paradigm, I call them like functional saviors. Like people need Jesus, and they don't have Jesus. Oh shit, we're going there. And so they're like, you know what, we'll make me happy is big numbers on Facebook live or the next iPhone.

Right, that kind of thing. Well, that's it. You're looking for a religious perspective. Or when you watch like a TV commercial, and that TV commercial says, you're sad now, you perspective when you watch like a TV commercial and that TV commercial says you're sad now you know why you're sad because you don't have this thing dynetics you have this is the average dynetics yeah well that's true sometimes like if you're hungry and they advertise a big back right and you're like and then you go you

did right sometimes you feel better but the other the other thing i've been thinking about with with the um i'm sorry that you've been carrying around you why don't you just email me i'm just wondering you've been carrying around this uh... this uh... feeling that i had it i didn't know that i had some i didn't know uh... did it read that way because i feel like i did not i was just the time well obviously i'm self-obsessed and thinking about my

you're constantly thinking about yourself i just the polski put something on medium it's clearly now i think i think it was just, I just that day, I was sitting in a coffee shop, which I rarely do. And Lauren, I had had a conversation the night before about I think it was largely about Facebook live, but it was also like, there was starting to be like a lot of chatter about new friends.

And I just had a conversation with somebody about video. It was like a ridiculous conversation. We're like, I said something in the post about like vertical vertical video newsletter or whatever the thing the combination of things you're going to be. And I was like, this is insane. And then we were sitting in a coffee shop and I was like, I'm just going to start writing something. And I didn't actually, I had no plan.

I wasn't like, oh, finally I can get my thoughts done. It was just like, I spent two hours writing and then I was like, yeah, I guess I'm going to just put this up. The thing I've been thinking about a lot is the kind of the catch 22 of like Facebook versus so when you want to build a brand, you want to be really specific and build like a really specific dedicated audience that really loves you forever. Like, that's the dream at least. Like, what if people actually knew the name of my website and didn't just read my top 10 list? That's right.

And so the way you do that is with really focused stuff that you're passionate about and that you find very interesting and you do better than anybody else. That's right. And those people really respond to that. I'm loving this so far. And they love you for that.

That's right. And those people really respond to that. I'm loving this so far. And they love you for that. That's right. And or a bot come in. The way Facebook works is that you're rewarded for the thing that is the absolutely most general. And Facebook does have things for targeting to different audiences and stuff like that. But what could truly go viral, liked by this person, and they see it,

and then like the actual way Facebook goes viral is about being the most general. And the thing that I sort of was arguing in that piece that you're getting at isn't like we have to reframe in my opinion what audiences mean and what success looks like and how you measure success and what you think of as like your success point. I think it's so fundamental that in the current, totally broken system that we built, this totally broken idea of like 20 years ago, we were like digitalism worth anything. And so nobody paid anything for it. And then we kept building on the same broken system over and over.

And then Google is like, we could make this easier for everybody with like, programmatic advertising. And that just helped to build this idea that like the metric is scale. The metric is amount of people, which is a fucking insane metric because like, never before in the history of almost anything has like the sheer size of it been the determining factor.

Well, and it's not even a number of people who love you or support you. No, it's like who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know? No, it's like, who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know?

It's like, who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know? It's like, who do you all know? Colo became the most popular soda because it was so delicious and everybody loved it. Like, I'll give them that they had maybe a better soda than somebody else or whatever. Like Pepsi. People drank the whole can.

They're like, they bought it. I don't know where you're going with this. They're like, I love this. It's so good. I'm drinking the whole can, right? This is like, if you bought a Coke, because you heard about it, you took a sip of it and then you abandoned it.

Like, that's the, if a deli- It's like, if you heard about it, you took a sip of it, and then you abandoned it. Like that's the, if a deli, it's like if you like your own parties and you reach into a cooler of ice and you keep on pulling out coaks every time. Or like, maybe this is not a good metaphor, but it's like you're drinking something, this is a bad metaphor, it's like you're having a sip of something

and it's like almost as good a sip of something and it's like almost as good as Coke, but you don't really care. And then you discard it after one sip. Whatever. The point is nobody actually gives a shit about the big scale audiences aren't like real audiences. They're a phantom. We think that they're audiences because it's sexy to have like a hundred or 200 million or whatever. But the reality is that like the best brands, at least at their inception, and very rarely do they ever grow to be like the broadest

and most like widely consumed brands. But like the best brands, least the ones that I give a shit about, and the ones that I like are fine to finite in interesting audience and they like keep going at that audience and they figure out what they can do with that audience. And like I think make sweeties. Yeah, but mix weenies is very, very hyper focused and they have a really big audience.

But still like, I mean, there's something in between like mix weenies and Huffington Post, you know, like I think there is something. But I think that like Yeah, I mean the the thing that I wrote was just about, I think there has to be an alternative to that system. Well, here's the other thing. And we've got to figure it out. You also, because you wrote it on medium. Yes.

And you made it sound like there has to be an alternative. Yes. And you're clearly working on something. I don't know, am I? I don't know what I'm working on. Sounds like you're like, you're doing like the first half of the Steve Jobs keynote where you say, everything's shit, here's all the bad things,

here's what's wrong with the dill. Nobody reads books anymore. I'm starting a book. And then you go like, we think we really solved it. Yeah. No, but actually it's called, do you know what it's called? It's called a walled garden. Walled garden where charging is a description.

We figured out the secret is to do it the old way. No, here's the thing, solving it's a lot more complicated than like... Actually, I say this in that piece. It's not about a magic trick. If I were to then turn around and go and I have the solution, you can be sure that I'm full of shit. The solution is really terrifying. Next medium post is like an ellipsis.

The solution is, and I have the solution. I'm going to give everybody the solution right now. It's a lot of things done really well all at once, and it's extremely fucking hard. That's the solution. The solution is like, you've got to be good at everything that I mentioned and then some things that I didn't. And you've got to be better than everybody else. And you have to have better ideas than everybody else.

And you have to be a harder worker than everybody else. And like, you have some nuance to that. Clearly there's nuance, but I think the reality of it is, if you reframe around this idea of saying, okay, I have a, I can find an audience that's a really good, valuable audience as meaningful to whatever I want to make. But I accept that I won't, I'm not trying to constantly get at 200 or 300, there's 3 billion people on the internet, you know, we maybe think that those are all possibly our audience.

Like, when does, at what point do you, and what if Facebook gave you all of its billion eyeballs? Would you believe that that was your audience or not? Would you go like, yeah, I have it. They're here, so why wouldn't they be my audience? Like, the reality doesn't match up there. Like, the reality of what, how people are. So, well think about like a Super Bowl, Super Bowl halftimes. Oh, I do think about them. The best Super Bowl halftimes. Oh, I do think about it.

The best Super Bowl halftime that I'm aware of in my lifetime is the Prince one. I don't even really, like, I've never been into Prince. It's not guy, I didn't have feelings for him one way or the other. I did not grow up listening to his music. I hardly know any of his catalog. Wow, you're really shitting on Prince right now. But you have this guy show up. The guy just died. Give him a break.

Who like, like, so you have this guy show up who I hardly know. And clearly, he's just like passionate about what he's doing on stage, right? That moment. The greatest, the greatest, one of the greatest performers of all time. And that was like mind blowing to see. Well, what was that? What year was that? I don't remember. Who was playing? It was like the Patriots. Oh, I'm getting it. It was like the Patriots. I'm getting.

What's always the Patriots versus blank, like whatever. Who cares? Cause they're just gonna have a bunch of deflated balls anyhow. I don't even hate football and I hate sports, but I do. I do dislike the Patriots also for some reason. I don't know. I'm sure Patriots fans will be very mad at me now. So my approach to this is like, I don't think too much about my audience or the reach or all of that stuff.

Yeah. I just like, and trying to find what I'm passionate about and try to do it well. Because that's kind of like as big as my brain wants to go. Right. Like I want to think about what do I find interesting? What do I want to explain to people right now? What have I found on the internet today that's really want to think about what do I find interesting, what do I want to explain to people right now, what have I found on the internet today that's really fun to talk about and then try to talk about it.

And luckily I'm in like a big successful media organization that is good at a lot of the other stuff that helps that make money. But yes, I think it's working so far. A big successful media organization which you actually helped to build. So it's sort of fitting that you can reap some of the benefits of that. But I will say that to talk about pickup projector. The thing, well, yeah, but the thing about it is,

I think that's the right approach. I mean, you should do only do what you think you can be good at and you enjoy. And like you're actually passionate about, you shouldn't do shit that like you don't wanna do. I think like a life spent, even if you were the most you're actually passionate about, you shouldn't do shit that like you don't wanna do. I think like a life spent, even if you were the most successful business in the world, I do feel like a life spent doing things

you don't really wanna do is a mistake. Like even if it makes you a lot of money. Well, it's remembering that blogging was not enough for pay thing for a lot of people. It's true. Oh, it's true. We're very low paid. It's basically like putting your personal diary on it.

Half Indian post is still free. I mean, they're like, can we repost your medium post? I was like, yeah, I guess so, I don't care. And they're like, hey, free content. It's like, we found more. Oh, sure, give me that audio, give me that Huff-Pow audience. And like when I first applied to work at Inca, then I thought it was a free position.

Like it was on paper, so I just thought, I think you got paid though. I did get paid. Yeah, what was the rate? It was like $8. I started at 7.750 post at that. I think you were mad at me because I started at a higher rate than you.

That was fine. I never held that. I think it was $10 a post. Really? I think so. Wow. Sorry, I said I think so. I was off. I never held that. I think it was $10 a post. Really? I think so. Sorry, I said I think so. I was off mic there. $10,000 a post.

Yeah, and when you do the math, it's really, really bad. It's really bad. I remember I did the, I think it was 10. I know that I was like, I need to do about 10 posts a day to make this really work out for me to like pay my rent. And that was, you know was in a long time. It's something I've learned, because I had friends back then who like,

why don't you just do, you get paid for post, why don't you do a million posts? How long did it take you to write a post? I don't know, we had a 20 minutes. We had a writer like that. I discovered this about my writing, is that it's emotional for me. Even the most basic gadget blog,

I'm putting my personality up. Just when I'm on the camera, or talking to human beings, I put myself. And it's best and most meaningful to the audience when you're doing that, and not just trying to crank shit out. So this is my elaborate excuse for not being as prolific. I think that's great.

I think that's fine. Now, you're fully back on the internet. You know, you were off. This is one of your claims to fame. He's the guy left the internet. Yes. And you've got a smartphone now. You're just totally modern.

Yeah, he's got my phone bill for a while, so I... He's talking to his chat apps. You got Google, you got Google, oh, you got to have a Google I-O. Let's take a break. I want to take a break. And then we're going to do an ad. So we can keep the lights on here.

Although I don't technically pay the bills at Argo, the electric bills. And then we back with more Paul Miller and tomorrow and more of this horrible disgusting, gravely voice. That's what I like about you. You don't judge. Well you do judge. Just not my voice. And's what I like about you, you know, on Judge. Well you do Judge, just not my voice, and that's the most important thing. Video blocks is a subscription-based stock media company that gives you unlimited access to premium stock footage. Everyone can afford.

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Paul, I do apologize. My voice is really weak right now. Are those boobs? Are you drawing boobs right now? No, don't fake. It really looks like a pair of breasts, I have to tell you. Okay, now now that you put hair above it, that's a little more.

Is that Bart Simpson? I don't know, that's a joke. Are you drawing Bart Simpson? I'm not a fake. Turns out Bart Simpson's eyes look like a pair of breasts. I have like a pair, I have like a no ability to like, I don't like find motor control over my hand with a drawing.

You don't? So I just have to do like loose shapes and like hope they turn into a character. Okay, we gotta thank my Google IO. Yeah. Now, you know I love Google, big Google fan. Sure. Uh, I, I felt nothing.

I felt nothing about what Google announced the two days ago or a day ago or whatever. Now this will be Monday since the week following. I mean, what interested you are excited to do about Google's announcements from the other day? Aloe. Aloe is their bot messenger. Yes. But it's like, okay, here's the problem with L.O. It's not inundated with anything

that I actually use. And they're not in, it doesn't seem like they're thinking, hey, we want to take Hangouts, which sucks, which could be a, GChat was for so long like the de facto chat standard. And like, and like, guys, this is the moment. You've got the audience, people are excited about chatting, you have like built in, people already using it. I'm still using Hangouts for stuff. So do I, all the time? Lauren, I talk all day on Hangouts. Just make it awesome.

So like, just make it awesome. And what the cool hook is that you can sign up with your phone number. So just add that. To hang out. Like if you added phone number sign up plus an email address based chat, you have I message. Yeah, no, and then you can also also it should take over Android text messaging. Oh, yeah, 100% there's there's like there's a lot of

problems with all of that. But that the Google Assistant stuff is is truly interesting. It would be okay, hona, it would be okay if they had a chat client that wasn't last so to your phone, like to your phone number. But like, you know, I mean, WhatsApp needs a phone number and they're doing okay, you know? Is that enough people chatting for Google? That's what they're going up to. That's specifically what they're targeting.

Is WhatsApp. With ALO. But you understand what I'm saying is that they have an incredible platform that there are already a ton of users using. So why would you ignore and abandon that thing and try to get them to? Because Google loves to abandon things. I'm just saying it's a very, very bad idea for building a new product.

Like the idea of this sort of like intelligent assistant that is like living there. Like that's what's fascinating. Well, you can see the shades of it in the Google keyboard for iOS, which has this like predictive quality where it'll say like do you wanna search for this thing? Or hey, here's a map of this thing you just talked about or whatever, or you're typing, which is really useful.

It's actually great. Super awesome. It's like a much better idea than that. Because I think I have a keyboard. I think typing, like this goes to, why this is so important to me is because I think typing is the best Okay, I don't want to talk out loud To my computer. No, well if you're in private if I'm probably like when I like

I shut the door to my room from the private chat and then talk to you like do you talk to your computer like around your wife constantly constantly all the time I'm like computer Can you get me a drink? What's a drink so I'm not gonna use my voice right which is the one of the primary like the primary ways that he humans community right people a lot of people Are psyched on that right shit. Otherwise. I like this pretty interesting. Otherwise. I can communicate with a computer Yes is move an amount. Yeah, swiping and tapping or typing. Uh-huh. Wait, wait, eye tracking. Okay, eye tracking. Sure gestures smell. The kidnaps. Don't forget that.

I'm gonna be a whole body. A whole body. A whole body. Express different pheromones to the computer. Like with your angry, you'll set up the pheromones of anger. I don't know how that works exactly, but when you're, when you feel sexy, you know, you'll get a bit of a computer. Sure. We'll know what to kind of mood you're in.

The most efficient of those is typing. Tapping is the most efficient. No. I mean, typing's efficient for certain things, but not for others. Like ordering a pizza. Well, so like, I use spotlight. You've read this article, right? An auspred. This is a great article that's been doing the rounds about how many steps it takes in a. Like ordering a pizza. Well, so like I use Spotlight, you've read this article, right? An auspire.

Great article it's been doing the rounds about how many steps it takes in a bot to order a pizza versus how many steps it takes in a regular user interface to order a pizza. And it's like 76 taps to order it from the bot and 16 taps to order it from a regular UI. So that's why one of the important things about this is that I want like a unified UI that

is all typing based but has a centralized command. So like I love spotlight on the Mac OS to use Alfred. Alfred's the best. I'm getting better actually in Slack. Slack has this command K. So you Helen at the verge just showed this to me. You use command K and then you type the Slack room you want to go to or the person you want to talk to. So you can set all your rooms to be hidden and just jump around with Command K. So yeah, Alfred, Spot, Slack, and then I use Terminal a lot for programming stuff. And you can do really interesting commands

and stuff with text. And so I think text is such an important user interface that has been kind of neglected in the basically since the point and click error started. And so what I feel like the chatbot way of doing it is not exactly what it needs to be ultimately. I think it needs to be basically user friendly command line. Well, I think the idea that you want to have a conversation

with your computer is a little bit. It's not, I don't want to have a conversation. I think the idea that you want that a bot is something that has a conversation with you is the problem. Like, I think the idea that there is an artificially intelligent observer that is aware of what you're doing and tries to help you Makes a lot of sense like if you do something over and over again like the predictive keyboards and now Google does this really well Apple does not where if you type the same sequence of

Words or numbers over and over eventually the Google keyboard will be like oh oh, the next word you want is this. Like, when I type my address, I type the street name and then road, right? Eventually, it goes, oh, you want, this is the next thing you're going to type. So I don't know how to type it. I can just tap on it. Now, the Apple keyboard doesn't do that. But that's the kind of thing that's just a little little sliver. There's lots of repetitive things. But the idea that it would be like, you're like, oh, I'm starving for pizza. So pizza, you want to order the pizza that you love so and so.

So like pizza makes sense. So if you're in a chat app, you might literally want to have a conversation about pizza, right? But if you, if you're central interface for, for whatever computer you're on, is a text prompt. And you type P-I-Z. It should have an auto complete prompt to say, hey, you wanna order the last piece of you ordered. By the way.

And you tap that. So that's P-I-Z's for taps. And then one more tap to select that. Or you can be like, God, I'm starving for pizza or like God, I want pizza or I want pizza. And then it's like, that you just go, do you wanna order this thing that you always get from this place and yes or no?

I don't like that as much. Okay, fine, yours is more of a command line, mine's kind of a conversation. But the difference is that the conversation is really, really fast. It's like really efficient. Like, I don't have to do anything else. Maybe I want to change something

that I can go into UI and go like, no, I want pepperoni on there, whatever. But I don't want to be like, hey, Chapat, I think I want pepper change something that I can go into UI and go like, no, I want pepperoni on there, whatever. But I don't want to be like, hey, chatbot, I think I want pepperoni on it. But yours was, were you talking to the computer or was the computer listening to you talk to somebody else? I think it's listening. See, that's it.

But you could also talk to it. That's a little weird to me. I want to command my computer. If my computer prop me, like, you know, when you go to like, yeah, that makes sense. Go to certain websites. They like like you know when you go to like yeah That makes sense to go to sites. They like prompt you do you want to add this to your notifications And it's insane to me you want to talk about insane. Here's one that'll boggle your fucking mind. I was thinking about it today Why are we why do why are our machines not better at this? I was typing an email to Ryan Saying you were gonna be on the show, and I wanted him to give you directions

And I needed your email address. And I wanted to be like, there should be a way for me just to go while I'm writing, get me Paul Miller's email address without having to leave the convert, the environment, right? Like, there is no way in any email client that I know of to go like, drop in a name and email address here, drop in an email address without me having to go up to the thing and search for it and copy and paste it

and drop it in. Does an Apple Mail do something like that? Where it looks at what you're typing. If it does, I'm switching. A little bit specifically for contact. Like the way Facebook does, you can do at. Right, right, right. That makes sense.

Why wouldn't that happen in Gmail? No, yeah, they should do that. It's fucking insane. And why doesn't the keyboard, like, why can't I use a keyboard that knows my one pass passwords? So that I'm constantly not switching apps and order to sign in. I didn't, one pass makes a keyboard.

Oh, I didn't know that. Because that's, and now that's becoming the problem. So, like, this keyboard. Oh, the keyboard lock-in. Well, turns out keyboards are really useful. Please, I do think. You have to tell this guy, okay? I'm a big fan of keyboards.

So, but the problem is, is now you get to choose what's the most important thing for you to solve. Do you want to solve Google searching? Do you want to solve password? Do you want to solve? Do you know, can Kardashian emoji? Do you know what's sick?

Pick your keyboard. Do you know what's sick is when you're sitting in front of a computer with a real keyboard and you're just jamming. Okay? Because keyboards are incredible. You use, you can use all ten of your fingers if you want. I don't use every one of them. But like, do you know much more you can do with all of your fingers? It's a huge space where you can like hit all these buttons at the same time. What's so insane to me, I've talked about this before on the podcast. My voice is getting revitalized because I'm so angry. I got it about keyboards. Oh my gosh.

No, I am. But do you know what? I feel like when I'm using my phone, I feel like I instead of fingers, instead of I have stumps. I feel like, do you know what I mean? I feel like I'm not, or I don't have arms. I'm constantly trying to like, do detailed things with none of the tools required

to do the detailed things. And we have to, at some level, like the thing I just talked about with the email address, you've no idea how frustrating it was, because I copied your email address from the, from the dialogue where you drop an email address and then it was a mail to, so I pasted it, and it was a mail to, and then it was a link.

And I had to like select it, it was insane. Because you can't select the link, you couldn't cut off the mail to without any, I would ever, the point is, and I was using the Google Keyboard, so it doesn't have the slide, so you can't slide. So the point is, just something as little,

just think about that. We haven't figured out how to efficiently drop an email address into or a phone number into an email to somebody. Or into a message. Facebook does it, Twitter does it. At this point, most chat happens to it. And I think that's the thing.

And that's one of the, what's powerful about a command line is that you are trying to scram everything into a single user interface. It's really poetry when you think about it. It's like an efficiency. And it gets back to like Windows Phone. Windows Phone wanted to say, here's going to be the user interface.

And then we'll pull all this stuff in. And I was like, yes, this is great. And then like they kind of chickened out because like a lot of app developers don't want to do that. Well, I got to say, I have this blackberry preview. But one thing that's interesting is it has the blackberry hub, which collects all of your notifications into just basically a big stream. And I will say, it doesn't make sense for Twitter,

but for things like Slack and email and hangouts and messages, like one-to-one messages for the most part. You can triage. Yeah. But it's also you can get an overview of everything you have going on. And it's like, Paul had this idea ages ago where it's like, suck it all into a master list and let me communicate, however I need to communicate with that having to leave. Paul actually had, I mean, remember this, WebOS had a command line essentially.

They had, remember the second version of WebOS had that thing where you could start typing and you could do actions from the typing. They were actions, they weren't just like, yeah, and then Blackberry had it in Blackberry 10. I think it still has it where you can start typing something. You can be like, tweet, blah, blah, blah, and then just, it tweets, right?

Like, yeah, it's crazy. Why don't we have that? Why didn't somebody come up with that? Why are we jumping through these ridiculous hoops? I mean, think about you're in nozzle. Do you use nozzle? No, it's a nozzle. Jesus Christ, come on, man.

Okay, with it. Nuzzles is great app, which basically, which is, if Twitter doesn't buy for a huge sum of money, they're completely stupid. Nuzzle does this thing that Twitter should have done years ago. It says, here's a story that a lot of your friends are sharing. And it like tells you, this one has 10 shares from your friends. This one has five shares from your friends.

It's like, in the last 24 hours, 12 of your friends shared this. 10 of them shared this, or you can do it in the last eight hours, you can do friends of friends. But it's like, if that little lightning bolt icon, now it doesn't do that. Was that? Yeah, be fucking amazing, right? That would be great.

Yeah, finally I could see what the big stories are that everybody's talking about. I don't know how to keep on like reordering my feet. I'm telling you, I'm popular. I'm telling you it's insane to me. They could go back to a rev-cromb. Can you imagine? Can you imagine? You open that up and it's like, here's all the biggest stories that all the people you

care about are talking about right now. It's the truest, best way to find interesting. Now sometimes it's like, okay, everybody's tired. I know this story, it's a Kim Kardashian, it's whatever doesn't matter. But a lot of the time, it's like something that you probably haven't gotten around to reading yet, but all of your friends are like,

you gotta check this out. And you don't wanna have to see that 10 times. Like it's great that you can see it one time. I mean, still you see it in your feed, but anyhow, the point is, if you're in a nozzle and you wanna share a link, you wanna share a link back to Twitter, you open up these arcane dialogues

where you're like in this one menu and then there's a pop up and then it's got all this like Nuzl, cropped on it, it's like, you know, brought you by Nuzl, a hat tip this person, it's like, get the fuck outta here, like I just wanna share the link, like I wanna share this link and you please let me do it.

And like the steps to do it are so, they're so inhuman. You know, they just are, they're just not natural. There's just no like fluidity to them. There's no flow. So, all that I agree with you. Chat bots are unifying interface. I don't think they're the ultimate perfect one,

but they are unifying interface. Here's the deal though. What you're proposing is brilliant, but it requires a system of connectivity and extensibility and none of these fucking people who make systems want to create systems of extensibility. And none of the operating system. Google does, Google does.

Well, no. Why, I saw a different maps client on my phone, on my Android phone and use that exclusively. Okay. Yeah, a little bit. So I want to use that for my map data. I just do it. But, boom.

Shall you down? Mr. Gadget. Yeah. Can I call you Mr. Gadget? Sure, sure. Mr. Gadget, you can put that. You can put that on. You can put that on PaulGadget. Yeah. Can I call you Mr. Gadget? Sure, sure. Mr. Gadget. You can put that. You know, I used to own Paul Gadget.com.

I know, I know. I know, I know. You should have held onto it. You fool. The pro. Take that, Diver, and your triumphant. You just think about Mr. Gadget now. I was talking about all these services exist as like APIs and could all be pulled together,

but yeah, no operating system manufacturer. And most like app developers don't really have. Yeah, Apple will let you really easily do things within its own shit, but it doesn't want you to go like out to Google Maps. It makes it harder, it makes your whole experience broken. And then Google tries to combat that by like

trapping you inside of it. It's not work. It's not work. It's auto opens chrome instead of Safari. Or you've to select it somewhere in each app, right? Which doesn't make any sense. And by the way, Safari is better on iOS, but Chrome is better everywhere.

And so it wins. Like the idea that I can, whatever it doesn't matter. So yeah, this is the, by the way, this conversation's so in the weeds. It's just the, we're getting operating systems like spoon fed to us. And then like in Unix land, you know, it's okay, we're not paying in the ass, but like, we're not doing Unix.

It's like you own the operating system. Isn't that kind of what Alexa's doing? Like, I'm not saying I would like the experience of talking all the time, but that's kind of they're just unifying all those home kits. Yeah, but Alexa's stupid. I mean, Alexa's not good at doing things. Alexa can't do complex things or even marginally complex things. Like, I think Google Home's going to be a lot more successful because Alexa, I'm so proud

of them for having API, but you have to be able to say complicated sentences. You don't have to, you shouldn't have to memorize. Yeah, I don't want to, you don't have to, you shouldn't have to learn how to speak I don't wanna, you shouldn't have to learn how to speak her language. She should learn how to speak your language. And Google's by far the closest company to you. I mean, they have more data on how people speak than any company in the world.

There's, I mean, I think, arguably. I was thinking about this, this is a little bit of a tangent. Amazon, I don't mean, has all the audiobooks in Audible, right? Yeah. I don't think they have that kind of access to them though. Now, what you do is you take all the audiobooks in audible, right? Yeah. I don't think they have that kind of access to them though. Now, what you do is you take all the audiobooks and then you, and they have all the end of the versions, right? You take all the audiobooks and all the Kindle versions of those books,

and you do this massive machine learning project where you like teach a computer how to like, emote its way through a book, Right? I like it so far. I don't think they have the rights to do that. But isn't that kind of a Google that with Google books? Couldn't you just kind of do it and then apologize in the court later? I think what they could probably do is just buy a copy of every book and just be like, yeah, we used it to teach this machine how to read. Right. And what are you going to do? Like that's what happened. Right. We got a subscription and we used our credits. We paid for this reason. We used code word tomorrow. A lot of bulls like this person's reading these books

really quickly. It's like every five seconds there's a new book we read. Anyhow, but to your point, so I'll go excite you because of the the awareness, the bot awareness. Because it's a very advanced AI in a almost correct interface. So tell me what you're gonna do with Aloe. I'm gonna, I'm not going to take its suggestions for what I should say in response to a picture of a dog that you send me. I'm not gonna do that.

Yeah. Can you turn that off? I hope so. Yeah, you should be like, please stop doing that. I'm gonna chat with it, like one on one and like, have it do things for me and like see how good it is. I have a bad feeling about this, but I will say that I think your basic position on this matter is correct.

And I think it's a truth, whether you know it or not, the keyboards rule and are super duper useful. And when you can, I mean, Alfred's a great example. And I don't know if everybody, I mean, a lot of people might not know it, Alfred, Alfred is this thing you trigger with a key stroke.

Like option space. And it's essentially like a command line for all of the things that your computer does and all of the programs in your computer. Like so you can imagine like it's hard to explain, but. Well Alfred existed before Spotlight. So it's very similar to some of the stuff.

No, I don't think it did. I think Spotlight got better, but Spotlight existed and then it got some of the features of Alfred because they're like, oh, this is a good idea. And as Apple, it's... Okay, maybe. Apple steals things because they're very, very good at. Something I use Alfred for all the time is I need to see if Verge has already hit a

story that I want to write up, right? So I've got a command that I can do option space and then type v and then w. So I programmed this myself, but these are articles that have appeared on the verge in the past week, Google search for that site. So I do VW and then I type in what I'm actually. This is like, yeah, I used to have the same thing, but it was a in Chrome. You can do, no, you can do keyword, you know, like you can do keywords for searches in the bar. And I just had like VG, I think, was the Verge Google search that you could do by date,

and then it would bring up whatever the most recent. And yeah, because it's efficient, Google's really got to call in things. Yeah, the point is that to get to a very complex set of things very quickly, it's the most direct way. And yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I just don't think that I just think like why wouldn't you try to integrate this experience with a place where people already exist instead of trying to get them to force them into

a new place? No, I think we need a new operating system. No, I agree with you. It's time for new operating system. Did you try spaces? Uh-oh. It's good. The other thing. Well, it's

they're like, they came out with like a week for IO. So me said it's, are so me said, it's like a slack competitor, but it's, it's, it's, it's over. It's over. It's terrible. It's like a sharing. It's kind of like wave. Yeah. It's got vibe, wave vibes to it. It's horrible. It's very bad. They should have not released a tending buddy for any reason. I have no idea. Maybe for moodboarding. If you're like working on a mood board, so many want to share a lot of pictures. It's like a Pinterest for a group, group Pinterest, but it's like the chat function is it's like you can post things and then the chats are all like underneath the things you post. So it's like you have these real-time chats, but they're

subjugated under like posts. Like a piece of YouTube. Yeah, exactly. It's terrible. It's not good. Anyway, what else? You don't like the modular phone? You're not excited about the developer version? No, do you see the prototype? I mean, we haven't seen the developer version yet, so maybe it's a little waste-licker. Well, the one of the ad is very thick. The prototype is super chubby. I just don't. Nothing wrong with that. This modular phone is like, I like it. That's the future, man.

It's like these people, what is the, what is the, see you're in the gadget. How come you, how do you not like that? It's so gadgety. I know, I feel like I should. You really should. I mean, here's the thing. I also have like this little vendetta

against the impossible project. Those people are trying to bring back Polaroid. Yeah, but what does this have to do with that? I think it's backwards thinking. Well, I mean, some people, actually, they kind of did, there is a huge wave of analog insiphotography, which has come back. Right, but it's a very popular.

It's a retro-affectation. Maybe, or, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand how somebody could be very passionate about it. You mean, you don't, so you don't have a problem if I'm like a person I'm like, I love taking polaroids. No, go ahead. That's okay. But if I'm a competitor as a capitalize

on the idea that polaroids are cool. Go ahead, too. Okay. But I'm not gonna get passionate about it. Well, it's fine. You're allowed to not get passionate. We're at individual. Right, I'm like, what's your answer?

You're complete. What I'm, what I'm, what I'm, it's you angry. I don't, it doesn't, I don't have to make me angry. But you seem angry about it. I seem angry about it. Yeah, you seem a little heated about the situation. It's just so dumb.

And like, I love all the funny dumb things on Kickstarter. But for Google to be spending so much time of money on making a phone that is worse than all the phones we already have. You don't know that. But if you can put a, you can put like a bunch of speakers on it. Here, here, here's why I know this phone is going to be bigger. Bigger and worse. Yeah. Is because the space that most phones usually use to be better, this phone will use for these connectors for this module. It's just like a Google Glass situation, okay? They're in like a dev,

they're gonna do it for a year or two and then they're gonna like kill it. So why should I be excited about that? I don't know, just seems like you'd be up here, Ali. I think it's kind of cool. I think it's like, I'd like to go to the glass. You know you can probably attach to this.

I'll just find this a keyboard. Probably a keyboard, it's an appa keyboard in there. A big idea. Have I mentioned the Blackberry Preve it's not a keyboard in there. A big idea. Have I mentioned the library preview? Oh, the keyboard is terrible. By the way, physical keyboards on tiny phones is a ridiculous joke. Like, they're not better.

We used to think that was great. It's, we used to think that it was good, but it turns out the like, swiping's actually a lot better than a physical. Would you swipe on your keyboards? Oh yeah. You swiped the type? Well, not on my actual keyboards, but on your phone, keyboard.

100%. Really? One of the greatest things about having the Google keyboard on iOS is that it has its swiping, which is the best in my opinion. It's the best. What do you mean? Like one day you woke up, you know what? I'm going to be a swiper.

I started using the Google keyboard swipe and it was really good. And it's very convenient when you're doing other things. Like I'm holding a sandwich. Do you swipe it with your thumb or your index? I thumb. Sometimes if I, if it's sitting here, like I'll swipe it like this, you know, it works great. It's better than typing for the most part. Well, maybe not better. I'm in, I'm a very fast type.

Right. And I think swiping can be incredible sometimes. It's got to be the right place. You have to only use like boring words that it'll expect. No, no, no, because Google, the Google keyboard learns all your words. So the more you do the complex words, the more it remembers, that's what you're trying to do. It's very intelligent. Are you using the Google keyboard? Yeah, it'll learn. You see, you got to give it a chance. I've also been using Android stuff, so now I'm syncing all of this,

so it's learned a lot of things for me. I believe, I assume this is how it works. No, it definitely is how it works, because all of my Android, like, auto-completes, because you can create your own auto-completes. And you can actually edit them in Android. Yeah, and they're all in the iOS. So like, I have a shortcut for Gmail

that I use all the time and it's in there, which is great. I have in in in box is unread, and it's INIS, in is. And so I can just swipe IN, I just swipe over INIS, and then it does in inbox is unread. It's like, well, what does that do for you? It's in colon inbox is colon unread. This is a search. In Gmail, which then shows you everything that's in your inbox that is unread. Is this a search? In Gmail, which then shows you everything that's in your inbox

that is unread. Right. It's great. By the way, why don't they just have an unread tab? Nobody knows. It's definitely the kind of way you'd want to read email. But for a billion years, Google isn't like, yeah, we'll just put the unread tab in there.

Okay, anyhow, let's talk about politics. All right. Now, I'm gonna get this out there. Yeah. Because some people who are listening may not know you. You are the only Republican I know. No, I know other Republicans. You're as particular.

Earlier you phrased it that I was like one of the few. One of the few. You're one of the few Republicans I know. That's probably a safer statement. I definitely know other Republicans. At this point, now the Trumps in the race, a lot, I know a lot of Republicans. Really? And I had to be surprised.

And, but you are a hard line. I'm more, can I talk about your religious background? Conservative. Can I talk about your religious background? I'm a Christian conservator. You're in evangelical. Evangelical Christian. Yeah.

You are kind of a single issue of odor. And you were a cruise man. That's what I'm understanding. Yeah. I assumed. Yeah. Cause he's very religious. It's in my opinion too religious, but that's a different topic. What do you make of this? This must be a very strange time for you. Oh, it wasn't. For Cruz because he's religious, but I was mostly for Cruz because he was really into cutting the size of government. Right. We got to get rid of government, which I think is-

What does government ever done for us when you think about it? Well, mostly terrible things. Really? Do you feel like- Do you think we'd have anything that we have right now from our government? I would think we'd have a lot more things. Really?

Yeah. Like what? Like flying cars? I don't know. What do would think we'd have a lot more things. Really? Yeah. Like what? Like flying cars? I don't know. Would you think we'd have flying cars? Probably. If we could government, the government proves that that would be, that would have happened. I definitely would be up for it.

Well, the government has a huge role in keeping the price of energy much higher than it needs to be. Well, thank God we've got a mask on. I'm not an anarchist. My buddy who's an anarchist is a big fan of Trump, has been a big fan of Trump. And that seems to be having sex thoughts, which is weird. Is that because Trump seems like,

is that because he's like a chaotic neutral character and not just the dragons? Yeah. Like there's basically no way of knowing what he's gonna do. There is no way of knowing what Trump is doing. Don't you feel that? That to me is like, that's, on the one hand, he's gonna do. There is no way of knowing what Trump will do. Don't you show that? That to me is like, on the one hand,

it's the most exciting thing about Trump, but it's also the stakes are high enough that it feels like maybe not a great quality for a president. The one thing that is apparently consistent about Trump is that he is for like the like respecting like the limited powers of the respective branches of government. Apparently that's something that like going way back for a long time because like a lot of Trump's issues right now you can point to a time within like the past 10

years that he's been on one side of the other. Sure. Like every issue. But apparently this is one that he's really consistent and that's very important to me. So you're overstepped his powers very often. So you've got to vote for Trump. Yeah, I think I basically have to vote for Trump. Man, I can't believe it. The first person I've met, I think, seriously. The other thing is like going to vote for Trump.

I mean, that I know of. Trump did this thing as like a big, big gift to all the conservatives who were like, well, Cruz is out, what do I do? Conservatives who are sitting there head and hands trying to come to grips with maybe having to vote for Trump. Yeah.

And he came out with a list of Supreme Court justices, which is very, it's a really good list that he's Fony don't you think he's a phony? Don't you feel in your heart that he's full of shit and that he isn't even really a Republican? Sometimes yeah, like his views on a lot of things. I think the thing is is that he will do what he thinks can get him the most right And I think he actually thinks that These sorts of Supreme Court justices can get him the most right because who spends the most. And I think he actually thinks that these sorts of Supreme Court justices can get him the most. Because who spends the most time thinking about

conservative Supreme Court justices or, you know, constitutional Supreme Courtists? Conservatives. Right. Right. Right. Those are the people who are the most worried about this all the time. Right. And people who... Did you say they did not feel that way? I guess I feel the opposite. We're like, if there were a lot of conservative Supreme Court justices, this country would be a nightmare. We could never get ourselves out of.

But how big of an issue has it been to you as far as who you elect based on who they're gonna nominate? Um, well, since I've never really agreed with any of the Republican platform, maybe some of the fiscal conservative is, some of the fiscal conservative thought is not horribly wrong, you know, and I think I wouldn't say smaller government, better government, And I think I wouldn't say smaller government, better government. Smaller is not like to me. Yes, undoubtedly in anything as large as the federal government. There has to be bloat.

So I would say like we've got to deal with that. It's not just bloat as far as the government does too much. It's that there's so many rules. There's so many laws that like are basically passed by regulatory agencies. Right. That it's just kind of it gets basically passed by regulatory agencies. Right. It's just kind of, it gets harder, like literally just day by day, as we sit still, it gets harder to start a business, hard to stay in business, harder to do basically anything in America. And yet, and yet, people like the Koch brothers are fabulously, enormously, crazily wealthy.

Well, sure, a lot of people get wealthy, and that's the other part is that when you have large regulators, you get regular, was it capture, regulatory capture, I'm trying to use the cool big for that. What is that? It's because it becomes like a revolving door. Like this happened with Obamacare, you, governments like, we're going to do this new rule.

And the businesses that would be affected by it, they're like, no, no, no, this actually happened with the FCC. The FCC is like, we're going to do this new regulation on broadband. Time won on Comcast, bringing it back again. It's very smart. Don't do this, don't do this. And the FCC is like, oh, we'll let you do your merger. Right.

And then now those companies are totally on board. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do this regulation. Right. And now those companies are totally on board. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do this regulation. I think that's like called, and then this, and what happens is that this is to, this to me is the bigger problem. I was actually going to say this is that like, it's not the government itself, like,

oh, the federal government is the problem. It's that like, we have these crazy influences from people who are trying to control like wealth and control the destiny of their- Okay, but if you can destroy one, you can destroy the very large federal government or you can destroy the very large corporations that benefit from buddy buddy relationship.

Second one. So, second one, because it- So then you don't have any company. Well, I believe in the sort of foundational quality of a federal government to like make a country into something. I believe that like every country has like a governing body that helps to set laws and create, create things of value. And I don't have any guarantee that like, you know, that the Koch brothers want anything, but an amassing of wealth and their own control.

Well, I don't believe that they want anything more less than that, and I don't believe that most politicians want anything more less than that. And so that's why you have to use, why are we gonna get Bernie in there? Keep on. You can't, like Bernie Sanders a little bit, do you? I think he's funny.

I actually, I would actually, my dream was to have Cruz versus Bernie. Because I think I would be the furthest of both of these parties. Right. You can have like a real contest of ideas because that's why I liked Cruz. It's like he really can clearly state

like what the conservative principles are. And so whether or not you agree with those, at least that's what it's about. Because cruise, that's the funny thing about cruise. Like me and my brother picked cruise right away. Like this is our guy. But so unlikable. I was going to say, I had to say nobody would walk for a cruise. It's just his face.

So that's the thing. His clear principles got him very, very far. He's also kind of a sneaky liar. No, he just looks like it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, he also has done a bunch of sneaky liars. He is not that sneaky. Like when he was calling, he was robocalling people and saying

the bank cars and dropped out of the race and he had, but that did happen. He's aggressive. He's a little sneaky. He's not a sneaky liar. He looks like a sneaky liar. Well, you know he's sneaky. Donald Trump.

Very sneaky. He's the most overt liar. He's a, yeah, he's definitely a huge liar. He's not that sneaky actually. Yeah, but this thing, so like he's like the opposite of sneaky, but he also is, gets away with every fucking lie. Not before the Indiana primary,

before Cruz dropped out, Trump held up a newspaper saying that Cruz is falling. Oh yeah, well you're thinking out with, I watched it on CNN. We heard it as well. I was watching it on CNN. It's amazing.

They had like a dress on us for CNN. No, it's insane. It's like something from a, like you couldn't write it into a movie because people were like, that's unbelievable. No one would ever go for that. That doesn't sound like something that would happen.

There's something about that. It worked, it worked. That's the crazy part. I think that speaks very poorly about I get to tell you. I think that says something very worrying about who makes up the Republican Party right now that anybody's falling for Trump. Well, that's things, I'm not saying Cruz is great, I hate Cruz too.

You know, Trump is really full of shit. Trump did the best in states with open primaries where you could vote if you weren't a Republican. No, don't tell me that. So there's a lot of, there's no way Trump's a better choice than Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders. Oh yeah, so Hillary is just,

is like basically a bot and paid for like literal criminal Oh yeah, so Hillary is just, is like basically a bot and paid for like literal criminal. I mean, Hillary is closer to conservative really. She's a lot of a lot of the democratic choices. Since Hillary was out of the Senate, I love this. I'm definitely, definitely, definitely during the time that she's Secretary of State,

she's been basically selling her future presidency to the highest bid. Listen, it's been a topic of heated debate in my household, okay? But you know, so I'd rather have a suck. I'd rather have a relatively wild man. You'd rather have Trump. I'd rather have Trump. Then someone who's deliberately you it you it. I mean, yeah, I guess I don't know about deliberately evil. I think I John did you hear the podcast idea with John Hyelman? He's from from a you know, he's Bloomberg politics and anyhow he wrote game change. Yeah. But he talks about the Clint's, and he made a really interesting point that I think is very true. He's like, the Clintons have this worldview

where they're like, yeah, maybe we're gonna break the rules or bend the law or whatever, but it's all for the greater good. It's all for like so, like it all, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. It's fine that Saudi Arabia funds me, Hillary Clinton, because I'll become president and I can do good things for the president.

Exactly. I don't really,. Right. Exactly. I don't really, I don't really, you know, here's the deal. I'm trying to not imagine that a Trump presidency is an apocalyptic event for America. I don't really think he will be. So here's the thing I've been thinking about. He looks unstable, he acts unstable, but he's been like a relatively stable successful businessman for a long time.

He's horrible to women. I don't think so. And people of color and horrible people of color. I'm very bad at Muslims. Very bad at Muslims. I think he's very bad at Mexicans. I love. You can't defend his position on Mexicans, can you?

I love his position on Mexicans. Wow. Are you sure? Do you want us to edit that out? Just tell me right now. Oh, I think he just says what he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he just says what horrible people are thinking. Okay, he's like, he's like Kanye West. He's like, he's like, says racist. When Kanye West, after Hurricane Katrina, Kanye West is standing there with Mike Myers. And, yeah, George Bush doesn't care about black people.

George Bush doesn't care about black people. Do you feel like that's true? No. I don't think George Bush doesn't care about black people. I don't think it's true at all. But I'm glad Kanye said it because I think a lot of people think that. And I like that Kanye is so unfiltered that he'll say it out loud. I completely disagree with that statement.

Yeah, I mean, I think he probably was a little bit out of line with that one, but I will say this. Mm-hmm. It wasn't really a racist thing to say. It was almost like he was like, I'm worried that somebody's racist. Yeah, I'm not calling Kanye racist. No, I'm saying like outspoken is awesome. Right, and I don't feel you're like,

let's get all the Jews and put them in an oven, and then it's like, wait a second. That seems like a bad idea. That's not what, well, he's like, let's go up and run. Let's go up run up all the Mexicans and throw them over a wall or whatever. That's not what all of these things, they say that's banned Muslim from America.

Illegal immigrants. What about Muslims who are legally here? I think he's definitely walked that back. Has he? I don't know if he has. I think he overstated that one a little bit. Because like, you will admit, and he's not talked about rounding it.

You know, you're not a practicing Muslim. As far as I know, you probably think Muslims have the right to practice their religion, right? Yes. And that they shouldn't be penalized or kicked out of the country for it. No. But he did say that. No, his thing was that let's have a moratorium on Muslims coming into the country. Not to port the Muslims that are here.

No. Let's just ban Muslims. But it still seems racist, doesn't it? What the big thing is and why Trump's biggest groundswell is from... I mean, isn't this country staying up on immigration? This country is founded on the ideals of this idea of religious freedom. And in fact, you know, you're, but also the rule of law. You're Christian people.

Yes. Don't you think it's crazy to go and say people who are coming to this country looking for refuge from persecution, religious persecution, that we would say to them, no, you can't come here, you can't be part of this country that's supposed to be the savior for people who are experiencing persecution because of their religion. There is an aspect. Crazy.

I mean, do you want me to try to explain this kind of sentiment? Kind of. I know a lot of people have tried to As far as a a Christian goes I Do you have a lot of sympathy for a lot of people? um, and then you also so as a Christian you want to help other people right? But then if you have a family you also Have them like a more prime directive to protect your family. Do you think Jesus? What have said? I think that's the tension that a lot of people are in. I think from what I understand that Jesus actually said leave your father and mother and follow me

Like Jesus like makes it clear that like there isn't aspect of like abandoning your family right to to to follow The whole thing where it's like it's like, you know It was like help the poor and the sick and the weak and like before, like you go, like wash the, you know, feed of it. Well, there's some thing, what is the story? There's some foot washing that goes on. Yeah, but those aren't, yes. I'm just saying, it's the Bible, right?

That's your man, that's Jesus. So you should, you should absolutely help people, but if you are allowing your family to be in danger, that's just ridiculous. You're here, there's no proof that Yeah, but our family is a reward danger. Here, there's no proof that letting Muslims in the country is causing any problems. I'm just saying this is the way of thinking about this. You think Trump has walked that back.

But I think the big, yeah, I do. But I think, who knows? What do we get to do about the Chinese? I think the big thing is this country. Oh, I have no idea. Okay, what's he doing about black people? Do we know what his policy is on black people? He loves black people. It loves black people.

Does he like it? I love him. Just like Hispanics. A huge, it's a huge pile. You watch the viewers view on YouTube. Those two ladies are amazing. What is that? There's these two ladies who like early early in Trump's campaign just like talk about how much they love Trump. But um, um, you don't like Trump's idea.

He's, he's, okay. He's been so entertained. So entertaining. Cruze a Trump. You want, I wanted, Cruz. Yeah, so I wanted, now you're like, okay, I'll take Trump. I'm gonna have to take Trump. I'm gonna just, I'll turn it into, just sit it out. I'll turn it into his Hillary.

Maybe, maybe Bernie breaks through. Well, then that would be, is that worse? Is that worse than Hillary? I don't even know. Can we get Mitt in the running? Can we get him back in? I don't want Mitt. He's probably Mitt. I want't even know. I don't even know. Can we get in the running? Can we get him back in? I don't want to admit. You're all admit.

I want a smaller government. I like it. Got that great hair. I want a smaller government. We talked to it very very close. And I think the thing with, because we did, we're done. We haven't addressed the illegal immigrant aspect. It's about having a rule of law.

We have laws in the books in the country that should be followed by the government and followed by the people. I agree. That's one of the biggest frustrations right now. I agree with that. But also I think it's cut off overblown. Law? No, I think that the problem is.

We should have either less laws. Yeah, I agree. Let's trim it down. It cuts some of those laws. Or we should follow the laws we have. Like tax loop rules for the rich. Keep adding laws and not follow them. I think Trump is gonna add laws and not follow them.

I think I think a Trump presidency will be a lot of new laws and a lot of unfollowed laws. And no wall because that's a completely infantile fantasy that makes no sense. Like if it could be built, I think it'd be built which it can't, but if it could be, because it can't be, it physically would be basically impossible, but let's pretend that it's possible.

It would take so long and cost so much money. I don't care who does it. I hope it does. I hope it does. I hope it does. I hope it does just make immigrants. Make everybody told them no, just to make them look like be done.

That is the kind of thing that Trump would do that. It's just, he's been so entertained. I don't want to sound like completely insensitive. Is the president should be entertaining? I don't know. I don't want to be like insensitive to people who are truly offended by what Trump says. Yeah.

But it has been so entertaining to watch one human being manage to offend everybody. It's true, he has a whole point. He has really hit on every side, to be reprimanded by every leader. It's probably because he's a classless jerk. I'm maybe. I'm sorry to do with it. He doesn't seem like a classy guy.

He's like, how did guy who's like, I'm a classy guy? People, you know what I mean? Like, Jack State. He's like, let me tell you something, I'm very classy. And it's like, I don't think classy people actually say stuff like that. Anyhow, Paul, I could talk about politics all day and all night because we were so diametrically opposed on every level.

And yet, I have a lot of love for you. Even though I feel like you're very misguided on this Trump situation. But I do agree. Oh, I actually feel like, and you're gonna hate me for saying this, I feel like Trump, I'd rather have Trump in the White House than take Cruz, I think.

I think take Cruz is scarier in a way. Because of his face, but also, no, he's, you know, he's actually not that he looks fine He just looks like a person he looks a little bit like the grandfather from the monsters But mostly the problem of Ted Cruz is that I think his policies in mind are even further away than Trump's Balls is a mind I'm almost positive there and so that But I don't think Cruz in a shot of winning Oh, I think he did really because? Because he could cruise versus Hillary.

Cruise versus Hillary? Nobody wants Hillary to be present. Nobody in the whole world, I don't know if that's true. Except for people who have paid Hillary money for things in the past. I don't think that's true. I do wish we had a, I wish there was a kind of a third option that was not so radically divisive.

Like Bernie's divisive in one way, and then Hillary's divisive in one way, and then Hillary's divisive, and then Trump, I mean, I came and get into it because I'm not gonna serve as a person. Well, all four of these people are very divisive in different ways. Yeah, but I wish we had somebody who was like,

seem normal. Like a normal seeming person. Like who is normal? I don't know, who's a politician? I think that's the problem. I don't know what country we don't know what's normal. What is normal? I think Obama seems pretty normal actually I don't know what's normal. What is normal? Obama seems pretty normal actually.

He seems pretty normal to me. You know, for being a secret bozzlin. He's still a election to... Obama. Flood this kind of bozzlin. Obama's been great for me lately, because I just like, sometimes I wasn't paying a lot of attention to politics before like the primary started in.

And it's like, what do I, what do I think about this? Yeah. And I just look at what Obama does. And then it's like, I bet I'm gonna think the opposite. Now look into it. Now I do. But don't you think that things you've been, he's just like a perfect guy that's

because you've been for something. See, that's what I don't get is like, how is it possible that every single thing that you think is opposite of the single thing that he does? I'm amazed. That's because you've been conditioned. Like, that's because you've been conditioned like like that's because you've been conditioned through years of indoctrination maybe he hates america wants to

destroy it that's doesn't make any sense that's not even remotely possible like that is a thing is doing a good job he's not there's nothing wrong with america america's in great shape america's fine america's at the top of its game oh sure just just what's that what is the better America? I think you what is the better America? Where is it? What does it look like? For the Reagan's America free to succeed. Let me tell you what would happen if tomorrow if the federal government were like you know what states do whatever you want. Six months most states would be out of money, completely apocalyptic, totally struggling,

but we would have a complete, like, full on civil war in this country. I guarantee you, because states would just go, so you're saying, a bomb is the only thing that's holding us together. I'm saying that the federal government exists for a really good reason. There are parts of it that definitely need to be downsized and deep loaded and cut totally. But like, is it the FDA? No, I don't think so. Is it the EPA? Probably not.

I would say the FDA, EPA definitely. Yeah, because 100% elevated. Why would we want to know what's like in going on in the environment and going into our food and drugs? That's a crazy idea. We should just be the Pfizer, let Pfizer do whatever drugs they wanna do

and just give it to people, just see what happens. Is that what you think should happen? Probably way, way safer. Well, yeah, if I'm Pfizer and I make a drug, but I wanna give to people, you don't think there should be any regulatory body that tests to see that this says that drug, yes, we approve or no, we don't approve,

or we think there's some problems, or you don't think there should be anybody that looks at that, that just do to give it to whoever. Why is there should definitely be legalizing drugs? I'm not like a full libertarian, but I have a lot of libertarian sympathies, but you're not for legalizing drugs Because if you really follow your this process the thought process, right? You're right and we got to wrap up But if you follow this like you basically say like we should be able to do heroin or crack or whatever because you know, you should take care of yourself. Um, I wish tobacco was more legal.

Um, Type back. Oh, it was just deeply tied to the money to interest in America. That's right. They took a big tobacco paid me to say about how profitable heroin. Think about how profitable heroin can be smoking is great. Think about how profitable cocaine makes you feel good. It does. Wait a minute. It does make you feel very relaxed.

All right, we got to wrap up. I'm sorry. We have to come back to this. I mean, fine paul Miller should stay illegal. You can find I disagree. You get like angry. Well, I say, you know, I say get rid of this. Get rid of federal government, but also legalized cocaine.

Okay. Well, I guess it would be in whatever state decided to make illegal. New York. You can find Paul on the internet at Circuit Breaker on the verge and also on Facebook. You can find him, you're not doing any unboxings, are you? We've kind of tried it, it's not working very well. Yeah, I think the unboxing thing really is tough. Sean, yeah, I've seen some good ones on the internet Well, we haven't quite pulled it off. You're on Facebook Paul Miller on Facebook

Maybe I don't know you're on Twitter. I'm a very private Facebook user. You're Paul Miller on Twitter. No, it's future Paul Oh, that's right future Paul on Twitter. I told how do they forget that? It's been so long and You can email Paul at Paul at the verge. Do you have that email address? No. Which is not. No, it's just like a secret dead account that I don't want to open up because you don't know it's just a PR disaster. Oh my God. All right. Anyhow, Paul, thank you for coming in and talking about gadgets and also arguing about politics with me, which was both were great pleasures. I should have, and by the way, I hope I did say anything that was like really, I won't just completely,

Ryan will go over and if anything, because that's really horrible, we'll alert you to it, because that's the kind of service that we provide. I appreciate that. And I feel like this is actually revitalized my voice. This conversation has been so engaging that my voice has come back to me. I love all people. Well, I'm too truly, well, I do truly, unless they're here lately, which is, I do think you're a very loving guy actually,

I think that your mind has been poisoned by years of indoctrination. Sometimes it's tough love. Sometimes you gotta get them in the catapult. Sorry, so it is, catapult them over the wall. Oh, that's our show. Paul, thank you again. Thanks, Josh.

Well, that's our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best. Though I've just been informed that Pennsylvania's army has invaded New York State. And so it's likely that your family is dead or dying.