Tomorrow - Episode 57: E. Alex Jung, Allegedly

Episode Date: June 15, 2016

This episode is an (allegedly) amazing discussion between Josh and associate editor at Vulture E. Alex Jung. It's (reportedly) all about representation in media – or the lack thereof. They (may or may not) talk about where you can find asian people on TV, why more and more online publications are scared to publish controversial opinions, and America's festering prejudices. (We cannot confirm or deny that) they diddle around topics like who in Hollywood might be using their powers for evil, or how exactly those people could silence their critics. Legally speaking, there's no way to know if any of this is true or not without listening to Episode 57 yourself. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow I'm your host Joshuaipulski. Today on the podcast we discuss sexy Asian men, chilling effects, and dorm room bomb ribs. But first, a word from our sponsor. Look, watch guys don't pay retail, neither should you. Crown and caliber is the smartest way to buy or sell your luxury watch. You know what certified pre-owned means when purchasing an luxury automobile. With Crown and Calibre, you now have the same level of confidence when buying or selling a certified pre-owned luxury watch. And just for the record, all of my watches are luxury. Like, it doesn't matter what size, what shape. If it's not luxury, I'm not

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and then tomorrow, where we receive $150 off their first luxury watch purchase with Crown and Calibur. And I just wanna say something. You know if this count is 150, this is an extreme luxury situation you're getting into. So check it out at crownandcalibur.com slash tomorrow. My guest today is an associate editor

at Vulture slash New York Magazine and a very deeply controversial figure who's crossed a lot of a consternation across the internet recently. I'm of course talking about Alex Jung. Alex, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. We're gonna get into the controversy

because it turns out you're a very controversial character who just does like innocent interviews that blow up. Yeah. But before that, I'm so chill though, you know? Are you? I don't know, we've never met. Like we've been literally, we spent five minutes together.

And I have to say it's been an intense five minutes. Well, you asked intense questions. That's your evidence tense guy. And I'm just trying to meet your level. Thank you. That's what I do. At least you can do. So tell me a little about your background.

Like you've been at a voucher for what, two and a half years. Yeah, definitely. So how does one end up at Vulture? And just for the people who don't know what you do, who really should, what's your beat, and how did you end up there? I started off as an intern. As a very old intern.

Right, well how old are you? I am 31. Can I ask that, is that illegal? I don't know if I'm breaking any laws. Ryan, is that cool? I'm 31. You started as an intern. Yeah. Well how old? Yeah. I am 31. Can I ask that? Is that illegal? I don't know if I'm breaking any laws. Ryan is that cool? I'm 31. You started as an intern at the age of, I think I was 27. It's extremely old. It's I mean, it's a very it's older stage intern situation. It is and all all the I was surrounded by a lot of whipper snappers. What the fuck were you doing before that? I did a full bright in Korea. Okay. That's pretty good. I, you're like, I was a, I don't know, I was a bubbler, I was just stone for five years straight. Well, you know,

I was drinking a lot too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. On the government's time though. Really? Yeah. Well, that's what a full-bright is, I think. Is, oh, I guess, I guess that's true. Yeah. Basically, Ben Learner's book, leaving the untouched station, is essentially what a full-bright is. Interesting. Okay, that's an insight there. All right, so you were drinking on the government's dime. Yep, for several years. Yes.

And then you became an intern. I became an intern. At Vulture? Yeah, specifically at Vulture on, although, but I worked for the other verticals too. And I. What does an intern do at New York Magazine? Just to make sure you also do.

I want to share a lot of transcriptions. Really? Oh, yeah. An enormous amount. Building slideshow. That's actually such a shitty job. At least, thankless. I actually, I remember giving people transcriptions like saying, okay, and we would give the

insurance transcriptions. I just think, oh, I sound so stupid in this conversation. And I was just dreading like someone sitting there listening to it. Did you ever, were you ever listening to conversations like this person's a fucking idiot? Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Order is the worst. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Sure. Okay. They're gone. They move on now. Obviously. No, no, I think I was mostly just annoyed when I got audio that was, you could barely hear it. Right. And I think that's what the very logistical things irritated me because I think that it's

a modicum of respect to at least have clean audio that people can transfer. I get the mic close to their mouth. Yeah. So you're interning your transcribing and then at what point do you make the transition into a non-intern entity? I kept pitching as much as I could. And I became one of their weekend editors, basically, because they needed help on the weekend.

And so I did that. And that was actually a great time, because that allowed me to write for other places, like descent and Algebra and places that I could flex other muscles. And also write for Vulture at the time, and then that's sort of when I made the transition then to full time as a staffer.

What's your first in your memory, your first really meaningful Vulture story? What stands out? My first meaningful Vulture story? Yeah, a piece where you were like, oh yeah, this is like, I'm doing what I want to be doing right now. I think one of them was a kind of just,

in a sense it was funny and analytical. It was before, fresh off the boat and all those shows came on. It was the taxonomy of the different types of Asian men who got action on TV. And it was funny. I mean, like we're on TV. Right. Like literally on TV. Like a variety of Asian men that got way. What year did you write this? 2014? Probably. Yeah. Literally on TV. Like the varieties of Asian men that got way. On TV. On TV. 2014? Probably.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I'm trying to think of like Asian men on TV right now. The varieties of Asian men on TV. But I immediately go to like lost. Right. Which is like an important. Yes.

An important Asian man on TV moment, right? Daniel Day Kim is on my list. Is on that list. Okay, I would hear what. Tell me who else is on the list. This is this is what I this is what I was looking for. So who else on my list, is on that list. Okay, I would hear what, tell me who else is on that list. This is what I was looking for. So who else is on that list? So, in a sense, it was people like John Cho,

who sort of had a flexibility and could seem to have roles that didn't type cast him in anyway. Then there were people like Ken Jung, who was on community, who has a sexuality, but it's usually mocked or made fun of in some way. So is that... So he would kiss someone on TV, but is that really...

It's not a full representation of a person, it's more humorous because he's so asexual in some ways. Right. And is that a... I was just interested, I never really thought about it. I started watching Community as a joke because I love Community. I think it's one of the best shows. I love Community too up to a point, but I'm talking about it. I'm talking about the Yahoo season. It was one of the, yeah, for sure.

It was one of those shows in the non-Dan Harden. Oh, right. That was good. It's not good. It's incredible because I'm like, wow, this is a parody of the show that it was. But it's funny because I started watching it, which I do this very often where I'm like, there were a lot of ads for community on NBC.

And I'd say to my wife Laura, I'd be like, who by the way is a staff writer at the cut? So you guys are buddies. I mean, you don't probably don't know each other, but. Well, maybe I'll slack her. Please do. Please slack, please slack my wife. But yeah, I was like, yeah, I'm gonna watch

Community, that's gonna be my new show. I'm gonna get really into community because I did the same thing with Big Bang Theory where I was like, I'm gonna start watching Big Bang Theory. When was this with community? I don't know, whenever it was like when they were advertising the first season. Okay, cool.

And then I started watching it and then I was actually watching it where I was a kind of joke game before. And anyway, but I never thought about that the Ken John character, but you're right. Like, I mean, I never thought of it as like, at kind of a, I'm not saying that you're saying it's a racist depiction.

But there is something, but there is something that's weirdly like, inherently funny, it's supposed to be inherently funny about the way the character is. That doesn't seem grounded in anything about the character itself, except that he's like an Asian guy. Right, right?

But also like a kind of small Asian guy. Right. Right, the smallness is part of it. Yeah, no, I think his physicality is a part of it. Yeah, yeah. But he kind of does, don't you think that's like his stick? It is part of his stick. I actually like Ken Jong,

and I think he's much smarter than I think a lot of Asian American activist types might give him credit for. Right. Because I think they see his comedy in this sort of very straightforward way that I don't, I personally don't see it. So is he considered to be,

so in the Asian community? And by the way, I'm not being like, hey, you're Asian, tell me all about this. But in the Asian community. Are you though?, I'm not being like, hey, you're Asian, tell me all about this. But in the Asian community. Are you though? So tell me all the Asians think about this specifically. I don't really know what's going on in the Asian world. But is he considered, is that like,

is that character or is he's like stick considered to be like a thing that's kind of offensive? So like, for instance, there's a sort of Asian American watch a group called Culture with a K, I believe. And so they don't like Dr. Ken, which is Ken Jung's new show on ABC. I would say. Yeah.

It is not my cup of tea. Okay. But they personally take issue with what they consider the de-sexualization of Asian men. And I think for them, there's this desire to have like very strong heroic Asian dudes representing on TV like Daniel Daycam Lee I like Daniel Daycam very strong heroic he's

not hot no I mean he's a very I mean he's like I think like is that the first like I think maybe in America the first sexy Asian man that was on television like where it was like this guy is like hot yeah and we're making a point about it. I feel like we hadn't done that a lot in American television. No, no. Can you think of other instances prior to him? Well, I mean, it's, I mean, even in martial arts films, they were strong and they were athletic,

but they weren't necessarily considered sexual. So like Jerry never kissed Alia, right? In Remioma's die, which is also a huge thing within Asian-American media. At the end of the movie, he never kisses the whole thing. I didn't think about that. Yeah. There's a lot of movies where people don't kiss people.

Yeah, but in action movies, generally, the hero kisses the dance a lot. There's a lot of movies where shorts and he doesn't kiss people. Okay. I mean, I don't know statistically speaking. I'm sure there's some bias. I'm sure there's some prejudice going on. I mean, it is a wee bit.

It is American cinema, we're talking about it. It's not like, it's real cut and dry. All mean, it is a wee bit. It is American cinema, we're talking about it. It's not like it's real cut and dry. All right, so who else is on your list? This conversation, by the way, I'm loving just this little snippet of a conversation. Great. We're not even into an actual conversation.

We're not. We're not. All right, I just am very curious. Who's on the list? So then there was a category for stealth Asians. What? So South Asian. Oh, no, okay.

I thought you, I was like, I heard stealth Asians, but I don't think that's what he's saying. Nope, that's what I said. Stealth Asian. Right. So for me, man, it's a stealth Asian. It's important, I think, to point out that this whole list is broken down into types of Asian men on TV.

Right, right. Not, they're not literal people, except for John Cho, who I feel like occupies a category of some. What is his category? John Cho. John Cho who I feel like occupies a category of some. What is his category? John Cho. John Cho is like, which is like what? The Every Man in some sense.

I think John Cho is one of the... The Every Man or the Every Asia Man. I think the Every Man actually, like I think John Cho is able to take on roles that don't feel very specific in a lot of ways. Right. That starring John Cho me. Right. Like John Cho sort of... Can't, I don't know, he heard.

I wonder what about John Chomey? It is. What is it about him that is like, Trans-Hens race? I mean, that's a good, I actually just did a very long interview with him yesterday. And I'm trying to get at that. He has a certain swaveness. He's not like swav. I mean, is he a certain swavness. But he's not like Swav.

I mean, as he is, yeah. I don't know, I guess the Swavness doesn't, that's not the first thing I would, that would pop into my mind, though. I feel like, maybe it's because he started off his career with basically a role like Harold and Kumar. Like that's really what catapulted him into mainstream consciousness in a lot of ways.

And that was such an atypical role for Asian American men in general. Right. And so he has, I guess I see what you're saying. He almost has like a, it's the wrong frame, but almost like a Hugh Grant quality in the sense of like, I actually think it would be great in romcoms.

Like I don't understand why John Charles maybe that's why it pops up great in romcoms like I don't understand why John maybe that's why it was yeah like selfie he was in that TV show selfie that was not that was not good the first well it got better it was like it's better well no because they they they released the episodes that they had shot but didn't I'm trying to it on hulu correct me if I'm wrong sure that was the show that was based on my fair lady. My fair lady. Yes or Pigmalion or whatever. Right, but it was about a girl who's like self-obsessed.

Yes. Yes. And he tries like, set her straight. Yes. Well, he was old. By the way, I watched, that was another show that I was like, this is my new show. Yeah, but do you watch it?

I was like, no, no, no, no, no. But did you finish it? To the end? No, I was like, I was like, episode one, I'm like But did you finish it to the end? No, I was like, see, I was like, episode one, I'm like, I'm out, this is not gonna happen. Because it was really bad. Like the first, the pilot was really fucking bad. So I would agree with you that.

You know the John Mulaney show? Yeah. Mulaney, as well. Mulaney show. Which is like, I was like, oh, this guy's really funny. I'm gonna check this out. And it was like, oh shit. You got sitcom.

Like, I don't know what happened here, but you made a bad sitcom that has like a laugh track and shit, that's the way I felt when I watched. That's what happens with the network TV a lot. It's insane, he really is insane. All right, so wait a second, who else is on the list? Well, so we can get back to Stealth Asians. Oh, yeah, Stealth Asians, yes.

Yes, very important category. So Stealth Asians. Not ninjas, no, like this is not, it refers to like their ability to be Stealth Asian. No, okay. So people like Dean Kane for instance is a Stealth Asian. Oh, yeah, like a secret Asian right or Mark Paul Gothel here. Dean Kane is what ha he's half Asian. He's part Japanese. His actual last name is Tanaka. No. Yes, swear to God. So his name is Dean Tanaka. I think so. I we would have to look up what is actually Ryan is going on this right now. He's

typing away on his iPad. What is real name is but his last name I'm not not. How can we I'm unbelievable. I mean he feel like there's be some outrage from an American. He was Superman, right? He was Superman, but that was on Lois and Clark and that was the 90s. So it was a very different. It goes right right. It goes the 90s. Right. Okay a very different. It is in goes. Right. It is in goes the 90s. Okay. Look, Keanu Reeves is also a half Asian.

Yeah. Okay. A lot of people don't remember or know that. And Keanu Reeves, Dean Kane or Dean Tanaka, I like to think of him. Right. And who's the guy who plays Blaine and Glee? Darren Chris.

Oh, wow. Yeah, he's half Filipino, but no one talks about it. Dad, we're so, everybody's so racist. Well, no, I think I can't believe he does a look Asian. Right, because he's a stealth Asian. Yeah. So that was my sort of frame for that, right, where people who are, have Asian ancestry or heritage, but they can pass this white and therefore they just play white. So you broke this down into category.

I did. And stealth Asian was a category. It was a category. And because I needed to acknowledge Hoppas. Did you rank, did you rank them? No, no, it wasn't about a ranking. It was just about an assessment of what was happening. Correct. If I'm wrong, two bro girls has several offensive characters on it. But there is there an Asian character?

Yes, there's a there's Han Lee, who is perhaps the worst one of the worst characters on TV. Like it just so I'm and I've only seen that show accidentally. Yes, I as have I just so I'm clear and I feel like you would know this. The character on that show that is an Asian character is like a straight up 1945. Yes, caricature of an Asian person, right? Like pretty much. It's like it's like a really nasty a World War II cartoon about the caricature of an Asian person, right? Pretty much. It's like a really nasty World War II cartoon about the Japanese. Kind of, yeah, I mean, it's very, I would say maybe more long duck dong vibes

from like John Hughes films. Yeah, but like parody. Oh yeah, it's bad. And offensive. Yes. But there are several characters that are non-white characters in that show that are parody, right?

All of the non-white characters in that show that are parody, right? All of the non-white characters in that show are essentially like offensive characters. I honestly don't watch the show enough. I've never known either to I, but I've seen it, I'm saying I've seen it once or twice, and my takeaway was like, oh my God, this is like an extremely racist, like an actually straight up racist show.

Yes, I think that is one of the few depictions where I can sort of unqualifiedly say, that's offensive. It's insane. It's really insane. I mean, I have no, look, I'm a relatively white person. I say relatively white, because I'm actually half Japanese.

A lot of people don't know that about me. Oh, no, I'm not. Oh, I'm a stoutish. Well, you never know. No, I'm 100% hotter. I'm actually, you know, I don't know. I'm Eastern European. I don't know what% hotter. I'm actually, you know, I don't know. I'm Eastern European. I don't know what that means.

I feel like there's probably groups that would not be crazy about my claim to whiteness. Like I don't pick up on this shit. I mean, just the Ken John thing, for instance. Like I never really thought about it, but now that you mentioned it, I'm going back and mentally and thinking of that community character.

And it's like, oh yeah, there's like some, there's stuff there that is like relatively unseen by me, but it could be fairly obvious if you think about it for a second. And I don't think most people do. So what was the conclusion of that article? By the way, we're like, how do we get on the topic? I was like, what's the first meaningful thing you wrote in Vulture? We're not even in the vicinity of like an actual conversation. Right. Right. But we are. That was so, so what was the point, I guess, is my question.

I guess part of the point was so that people saw it. It wasn't really my like revelation that I just saw. Kind of, yeah. I mean, I think part of what cultural criticism can do is lift the veil on certain things, on how people are portrayed, how people are represented, in ways that a average viewer or a white viewer might not be aware of.

And this particular vein of reporting, a reportage, was this something you're like, oh yeah, I need to do this, I need to do cultural criticism, or is it something that happened by accident? It was something I wanted to do. It was something that I felt like no one had really done, and I thought I could do it in a way that was funny and clever while also being sharp and pointed to.

Right. So let's fast forward. Okay. Let's move a little bit into the future or the present. Sure. So you, so I, I listened to this podcast who weekly, what's what's called. It's a great podcast. Bobby Finger and Lindsey Weber. And I was, I happened to be listening to it yesterday, or two days ago, whenever the newest episode came out and or close to it. And they were talking about this interview. And by the way, I had to put two and two together.

Like there's a little bit of math that I had to do. But you interviewed a guy named Noah Galvin. Correct. Is that his name? Yes. Yeah. He is on a show called The Real O'Neil's. Yes.

That's an ABC sitcom. Yes. It's about explain. Can you explain a little bit about what it is? Sure. So it's a show that's loosely based on Dan Savage's life. And it is ABC Family sitcom that centers on a kid named Kenny O'Neill, who is 16 years old, and he comes out sort of- He's like the main character.

He's the main character. He comes out to his family and inadvertently the rest of his community. And they're all- Is this set in the present? Yes. And it, uh, quasi-present. And they're all sort of deeply Catholic.

And it's about his family adjusting to his coming out. Right. Which is, to me, of course, this is straight white guy. Seems just like as a normal person. It seems like it, it's set, the fact that it's set in the present to me is like kind of throws me for a loop because I feel like is that a big, I guess it's still a big deal, right? I guess like people still freak out.

Especially if they're coming from a conservative religious family. Right. Yeah, like my dad's side of the family is Catholic and it was a reckoning with Jesus himself on a daily basis for like seven years. Really? Every day. Really?

Nightmare Christmas has, I've never had a Christmas where there wasn't a fight about this. About you being gay? About me being gay or gay people in general and like what the Bible says about it and what we have to talk to the priest who's coming over. What a waste of everybody's fucking time. Indeed. I just say like, I'm sorry, religious people.

I'm surprised that you're very surprised though. No, I'm just like, well, I'm just like, okay. Yeah, I'm not surprised. I guess if I think about intellectually, I'm like, I get it. But I'm also like, I don't think there's, I'm just like, how could anybody give, like, religion one? Right.

Totally meaningless today. Like, not a a meaningful I'm sorry I don't I don't mean to insult you if you're religious I'm not if you're devout Christian I'm sorry, but like I just like I think religion is all just fantasy and made up and nonsense and like that's not how Adults operate so that to be sorry Ryan if you're devoutly religious also I am a Jew at the moment, but I won't I don't even know what that means Are you Clint are you Clint and supporter supported yet now i am okay what you're a bernie bro

uh... i just like both of them equally and then when it came time to have to pick why what do you be like what i don't control i don't like bernie's gun control stands and i think they both are going to control we're going to get to this by the way yeah the lot of talk about this week in in regards to gun control and being gay and like Trump anyhow, we're plenty of ground to cover, don't worry, we're only going to get to it.

So anyhow, I guess like my thing is just like, so religion I think is nonsense and meaningless and like I don't think about that much. It's hard for me to be in the mindset of a person who's very religious because it requires me to assume that you can believe a ton of stuff that is obviously not true and not meaningful. So that's the first problem. And the second problem is like, yeah, I guess there's no way I can see it from the perspective of somebody who's come out to their family. You know, I've told my parents like things that they didn't want to hear. But my parents have reacted in like an insane way to everything. So it's kind of tough to say the same thing. But like, yeah, I guess, I don't know.

I'm trying to think like, so I have a daughter. I'm trying to imagine putting myself, I'm not religious, but I'm putting myself in the mindset of if she was like, hey, I'm gay. I don't feel anything about that. I guess I feel like, all right, well, that's what's going on. Of course, I also feel like people saying like, gay and straight

will be obsolete by the time she's ready to tell me that. Like it'll be- Maybe. I don't know. I guess, I don't know. I kind of hope though. I think people are gonna laugh about us trying to define shit like that.

Trying to be like, I mean, it's very important right now. And I think it's been very important in the past. But I think increasingly, I feel like a younger generation sees sexuality as a much more fluid, less meaningful thing. That is what they say. I don't know. This is just my armchair. Okay, so that's what the show is about.

So I was getting back to the thing that we got. So the real anneals is like, this kid comes out to his family and so inadvertently his like, sort, whole community. And then people, I presume, freak out. His mother is played by Martha Plumpton, who's wonderful, I love her. And she is the one who has the most trouble

adjusting to her son's sexuality. Right. And that's where most of the comedy for the first season's arc is. So the mom is the kind of, I feel like that's like a non-typical, I feel like. Sure. In families, like in people I know who've come out,

it's like the mom is the more understanding and the dad is less understanding. The dad is pretty chill and more eloof about it. Interesting. And the mother is the one who, and the parents are also getting a divorce, so there's sort of a lot of other issues that play in the show. So no galvan is the kid who, and the parents are also getting a divorce, so there's sort of a lot of other issues that play in the show.

So no galvan is the kid on the show. How old is he? He's 22 years old. He plays a character who is how old? 16. 16. And he's out. Yes.

He's like relatively new. Like he's kind of an unknown. Right. He was mostly a theater actor in New York, and this is his first major role and so you it's so you didn't interview with him a q and a explain the circumstances by which you ended up doing the q and it was it planned or was it like you saw

him somewhere uh... like i like i went up to him and i said yeah i mean like the way the way that it is because i because of the way the lens in and Bobby were talking about it, it was sounded like, right, it was sort of like, he was in this very casual situation. Right. No, it was not like that. It was a completely planned. Okay. So like his like, publicist, publicist, everybody was like, we're doing this.

His publicist was actually the one who pushed it on me. Really? Like, you really should talk to the staff. If you want the behind the scenes, you got a lot to say. Right. So I was doing an interview with Constance Wu who's the mom from Fresh Off the Boat. And her publicist represents Noah Calvin. And so she was the one who, when I was doing the Constance interview,

was like, hey, we'd really love it if you did something with Noah. He's really great. I said, sure, like we don't do enough with realonials. We had only run like a couple of pieces and I think we recapped it. And, you know, I think a story about the lead who's gay, who's playing a gay kid is an interesting story.

So I thought that would be an interesting conversation. So I said, sure. And then she said it up. And it wasn't like that. So it wasn't just like some, yeah, I think it would happen. And it was, there were no drinks had. I know they also implied that you've been drinking. Yeah, they did.

No, that didn't happen either. It was in the middle of the day at a coffee shop. Really? Yeah. Because I took away a total, a totally different sort of like vibe from my, I'm like, oh, okay, maybe it was like a much more casual thing. No, I can, well,

No, no, listen. This is the real thing. You're in the air, yeah. This is a real O'Neill. I'll, I'll tell you about fresh the real thing. You're in the air, you get this great real O'Neill. I'll bother with, I want to have a fresh mouth of the boat. I'm very curious because like, Eddie Wang has like, has disowned that, right? Well, yes, he has, he sort of torched it

and then he has made peace with it and now he's just sort of I saw him made a bunch of money off my book and now fuck you guys. Yeah. What do you think about that show? I'm not to get off topic, but I'm curious. I like it for the most part. Yeah.

I've seen a little bit of it. I mean, I feel like... Some episodes are much stronger than others. I feel like it's impressive that there's a show I don't exist on American television because they really haven't been, they're hard on a lot. Right, the last one was 20 years ago and that was Margaret chose All-American Girl in 1994.

And that was on for like, what, a season? A season? A season before it tanked essentially for a lot of other reasons. So it's like not her fault. Well, yeah. I'm sure. Well, yeah. I'm sure it was.

Okay, so you're doing interview with this dude. So there's two big controversies that have come out of this that I understand. Is there more than two? I mean, I guess Eric Stone Street is the mini controversy. He made a whole lot of this at but I understand. Is there more than two? I mean, I guess Eric Stone Street is the mini-controversy. He made a whole lot of this at Eric Stone Street. He apologized to three people. Oh, hold on, let's talk about it. What's the Eric Stone Street controversy?

The Eric Stone Street thing was he basically says that he thinks Eric Stone Street's depiction of cam in modern family is a stereotype of a stereotype. So it's essentially calls it out as game in Strawberry. And that's interesting because they're on the same network. Right. Definitely be attending some party scenes. The funnest theme, they're in the same programming block.

Right, they are. The funny thing is that no one has actually said that stuff about Eric before in other interviews. Yeah, that's not new at all and I'd known that going in. So what's his trip? Is he fairly like, is he trying to stir shit up? I don't think so. Really? But his publicist would have coached him in some way, right?

You would imagine. I don't think his publicist wanted the interview that was printed. Like, like the public. Okay. So, so long I'm going to need a little bit. But so he's like, yes, don't treat. He's doing a parody of a parody that I bought that shit. Right. Me, he and say that, but whatever.

Let's just assume that was his attitude about it. Kind of. The publicist is there or no? No, she was not physically there. Saw the transcript? No, of course not. Just saw it when I was published. Yes.

Surprised? Oh, yes. Yes. I mean, she didn't contact me specifically about it, but someone was contacted. Oh, people were contacted. Okay. All right.

I believe THR actually has a story that's running soon about what happened. Really? Yes. Okay, so he, this is Stone Street. By the way, I don't know. Maybe he's right. Now that I think of it, again, here I am, it's just like a fucking oblivious white guy. Do you want to hear his statement?

I pulled it up. Yeah, please. Let me, let's hear the Stone Street statement. I thought that's the softest of all of these. Yeah, it is, it share the stone street. I'll play now. I thought that's the softest of all of these. Yeah, it is it is the softest You asked him about characters playing Or playing gay that aren't and said can you be more specific about what you're talking about? And he said are you trying to get me to throw somebody under the bus right now because I've thrown Eric Stone Street under the bus a solid seven times this week

No as wonderful an actor as Eric Stone Street is I've never met him. I assume he's a wonderful guy. He's playing a character of a character of a stereotype of a stereotype on modern family. And he's a straight man in real life. And as hilarious as that character is, there's a lack of authenticity. I think people, especially young gay kids, they can laugh at it and they can see it as a source of comedy, but like nothing more than that. And I want Kenny to be more than the funny gay kid. That's his character on the real end. I mean, he's not way off base than that. And I want Kenny to be more of them the funny gay kid. That's his character on the real end.

I mean, he's not way off based on that. No, and it's an opinion, right? Like, I think that's an opinion of a representation and you can have a conversation about that. I think the problem is that the idea that he somehow can't criticize someone else's, someone, another show on the same network to me seems extremely sad and limiting,

to think that we can't have a more open dialogue around. Yeah, but that's pretty classic, like PR shit. Sure. I mean, right? You don't see, but that's why the interview was good. You don't hear E, well, I mean, I think so, but yeah, but all of the best. All the best.

The best. All the time fell didn't call shit on friend. Yeah, he was like, oh, these guys, that's not a side photo personation. Yeah, what's the deal? What's the deal with that? How did they get that loft? I don't know. That's not a side photo personation.

I don't know what I'm doing here, but the point is, you know, you don't hear like Jimmy Kimmel's not talking shit on like the real on eels. Well, you know, Letterman and Leno talk shit of each other all the time. Kimmel talked shit about Leno all the time. Maybe Kimmel does. But that's kind of the role of that,

but like the other people, you don't typically hear about in fighting. Right, but this is actually a more substantive critique. Right, like that's actually a beef. Yeah. This is more thoughtful critique, or maybe critique of how you feel like gay men are represented on TV.

But this kid's part of the system. But what's the point of having a kid like this in the system and having a show like this if you can't have discussion? Can I tell you, the point is saying like he's a young, out man who's representing a role that's like true to the community on television. That's a big deal for ABC or whatever.

And then they're like, oh, no, but don't say any of the other shit that doesn't sound nice. I mean, that's how it is. It's like, you're edgy and important until you've crossed the line and you're not, and nobody wants you to say shit. I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. But it's, I mean, we have a, I mean, look, all news and many,

like one of the things that I learned very early on in my like experiences as a journalist is that so much of what we think is news or authentic is just like a PR stunt or a press release. I mean, you know, up to the highest levels of like, you know, a source close to the president or whatever, when there's like something going on that the government wants the news to say,

like there are mechanisms for that happening. I'm not like, I'm not Alex Jones or whatever, this is not like an info war situation, but like we are basically all in like some kind of weird game together where there's an expectation from the people who make news to the people who tell, or like talk about the news and tell the stories of what is happening in the world.

But there's an expectation, there's like an exchange there. And there's an access game. Yeah, and this is like, actually goes to Trump, and I wanna talk about Trump in a little bit. I wanna get into like, really dark shit. I don't think to say about Trump. That's fine, but Trump's had some like, interactions with the media that are interested

and I think like relate to this. Okay, so Stone Street kind of throws him out of the bus a little bit. Right. But it's almost a nice way. Yeah, pretty like this guy is super talented, but I think this is... I'm not into this representation. Right. Okay, then there's... Then there's Colton Haynes. Colton Haynes. Colton Haynes is probably number two on the list.

Okay, remind you, Colton Haynes is again. Remember, you can never remember who he is because his face is a blur. Yeah, you said He's like a guy to Olivia Olivia What was that I don't know help out or whoever remember she's a who I don't remember who that is I'm he is a thing we did Bobby Colton Haines is like he was he said he's the ultimate male who when I showed you Picture him. Yeah, he's like a guy. He's like a guy. He's an extremely good looking. Is he that good looking? I think he's like no. And I think Santa Miller is more unique looking.

I know we have this whole thing where it's like maybe it's just because I'm a straight guy. I will conventionally good looking. He looks like who's the guy say he looks like he's like a James Mordor. He looks like Chad Michael Murray or you know, what's his name? The neighbor's guy. Zach Efron. He's like, it kind of like a less interesting Zach Efron. Anyhow, okay, so cool. Hey, what is his claim to fame? He and Arrow.

He's like a TV action. He's not Arrow. He's on Arrow. He's not the guy. No, he's not. He's not. No, he's not the main character. Okay. Anyhow.

So Colton Haynes, who's also out. Yeah. Yeah. He like, faking out. He was out, but then he like, he's out like. He was like, I never not said I was gay, and then they took a shirtless, go on to shirtless pictures,

and everyone was like, oh, so he is. Well, because he did shirtless photos? Yeah, that was like a sign gay too. Okay, just kidding. Now that would be a disaster. That would be a not a cool situation for anybody. Okay, so then he just, Tim, what was the shit talking? He did about cold hands.

Basically, he took, he made fun of the way cold hands came out, which was that he, he never specifically said the words I'm gay, for instance. He just kind of said that he never wasn't in the closet was his way of coming out. He's just very boring to never wasn't in the closet. Right. Was his way of coming out. Right. He's just very boring to recount this, by the way.

Are you dying right now? No, no, it's not. The last thing you wanted to do is have to recount. It's like, third party statement. I can do any of that. So that caused a cold hands out of huge reaction. Well, did I see, he called it fucking pussy bullshit. Yeah, he did not mince words.

No, no, but Noah Galvin said it was pussy bullshit. fucking pussy bullshit. Yeah, yeah, he did not mince words I know but no a galvan said it was pussy bullshit fucking pussy bullshit Yeah, okay, which is like I feel like Kind of offensive also funny. I don't mean in a funny way you were there. He did mean it in a funny way Was he laughing when he said it? Yeah, okay, I mean he also called him the worst. Yes Was he laughing when he said that you know the what the funny thing is that I don't know if I can tell you, but here we go. Yeah, why not? Well, he said a lot more things.

Really? Like what? He called him a mannequin. Really? Yeah. What did he mean by that? It was just, he was describing Colton Hanks. And he's, I wouldn't-

You didn't put that in. We didn't put the- I thought it like broke the narrative. I preferred to put it in. My editor decided not to. Okay, interesting. And he like went deeper on- Yes.

Dissing. I'm generally of the school of I think all the quotes should be there. We're all out there. Yeah, but my editor decided not to- I have gotten shit from people for just doing a straight up Q&A with a full on transcript.

Where you're like, oh yeah, I know I'm doing, I'm just publishing the whole thing. Like we talk and here's a transcript and this is what I'm gonna run. That's cruel. No, but I mean, with some like reasonable editing to make a coherent, but like this is the conversation we had. Sure.

Would you, would you prefer that it was that? Oh, yeah, I'm more of that school of thought. Right, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, I want it to be the most interesting conversation, but I also want most of the quotes that were said to be in there. Right. That's so cool.

That's a man of use. I mean, that was a great burn. It's a sick burn. And so anyhow, they had a Twitter flare up. They did. And uh, Which I got sucked into you did yeah I know quoted my tweet and said thank you with like clap emojis which means I had tweens in my mention really I'm a monster I'm blah blah blah blah oh you're a man you're the bad guy you had all the Colton Haynes fans on

you how dare you so then like let's get to the big let's get to the stop being around. This is all like. Let's stop pussy putting around. Let's get to the main fucking pussy bullshit. This is fucking pussy bullshit. So the big thing is that he basically and I'm gonna say it. You can respond or not respond. Okay. He basically was like so then he went on like a tear about Brian Singer. Now I want to preface this by saying, Brian Singer, who's the director of... X-Men. X-Men, like many X-Men movies, usual suspects, right? Yes, he directed that. Craig, am I wrong? Brian, you'll correct me, am I wrong?

That movie about the old Nazi and the kid. App pupil? Oh, uh-huh. Come on, man. App pupil. Yes, that's pupil. Okay, X-Men. And Valkyrie with your favorite Tom Cruise.

Did he direct that? Yeah. Love Tom Cruise, love the cruise missile. Can't miss. So, he's a big deal Hollywood director. He's a big deal. Yeah. And he just directed this X-Men Apocalypse movie,

which I think is a bomb. Unless I'm mistaken. Yeah, it's a- I don't wanna get, I hope I don't get sued for saying that, but I think it's a- We're just gonna throw some allegedly than it is.

Allegedly, allegedly a bomb. I don't get sued for saying that. We're just gonna throw them allegedly, then it'll be allegedly a bomb. I don't know, but I know that this fucking superhero shit is over. It's dead of the dead. I'm sorry for everybody. But anyhow, so X-Men Apocalypse was an apocalyptic failure. And, but he's very powerful.

Yeah, thank you. It's my Ed Big Man. So he basically said, and this is a rumor that I've heard before, not just like read about, but the book. Oh, it's well, sir. People have said like. Well whispered about.

And dude, I think actually it has been well reported on. And Brian Singer has been sued by somebody for years. He has. Which is the, he won that lawsuit. The allegation is, some you know pay all uh... allegedly allegedly i love to get to the brine singer that would be amazing that would be

what it no one great bad and please brine singer to assume in a think you're a great artist and i actually like the new expan movie really great storyline in a great direction uh... that choking poster was not your fault i see that you know what the bucket that perspective the photoshop it on that on a pop on a pop ellipses in a great direction. That choking poster was not your fault. I would see that you know what the fuck? That perspective, the Photoshop, it on a apocalypse as arm, it happens. You know?

You, we don't know how big the first mutant's arm is, anyhow. So the allegation or the suggestion in the interview, more than a suggestion is the straight up, the said, is that like Brian Sanger is into like young, I was like young boys, like I don't know we could read the quote Maybe that would be we read the quote Ryan. Yeah, you asked is there an industry network and he said yes, Brian Singer likes to invite little boys over to his pool and diddle them in the fucking dark of night. Haha. I want nothing to do

with that. I think there are enough boys in LA that are questionably homosexual who are willing to do things with the right person to get them in the door. In New York, there is a healthy gay community and that doesn't exist in LA. So a couple of things to play. Woo! Obviously, Bryan Singer, extreme allegation, which has been widely distributed, widely spoken about.

He doesn't really specify, he doesn't like, he doesn't like, he doesn't like, he's not talking about like 10 year olds. No, we don't, it's like, it's like, what's he talking about? Teenagers. We don't know. Well, he literally has pull parties. He likes people who look very young to come to his mansion and have a party. It's interesting because it's like, it's like the same shit that like guys are doing with young girls. I mean, it's like the same problem, right? It's like dudes like youngsters, basically, is the issue. So creepy old guys like young flesh.

I mean, that sounds like a great horror film that I definitely would watch. So anyhow, so Noah says this stuff about Brian Singer. Yes. This is where it gets really interesting. Yes. And needless to say, there is where it gets really interesting. Yes. And needless to say, there is a little bit of controversy around it. Yes.

He recants. He does. He takes all of that back. He takes back the Colton Street. Stone Street. He takes that back. Wow. He takes back Colton and he takes back Singer.

Did it feel like those statements were prepared? Yes. I think if you read the statement and compare it to how he speaks during the interview, there's a drastic difference between the language. In the language. So he were can see statements like, I spoke out of turn, this was an appropriate for me to say,

it was very like buttoned up. And New York magazine, alter the article, the article was altered. Yes. Can we say that? Yes. There was a version of it that included the quote about Brian's, Brian Singer. Yep.

Was that the only one that was taken out? Yes. And that was taken out. You didn't personally take it out. No. Yes. And that was taken out. You didn't personally take it out. No. Okay. And to me, this is like, I'm trying to understand this. And I'm not saying that you're gonna help me understand it.

Like, this is maybe a domain where either you can't talk about it or it's something that you don't, you can't answer the question. That would be correct. But I'm trying to understand the situation where, answer the question. That would be correct. But I'm trying to understand the situation where New York mags, because the only thing I can imagine is that there's some sense of liability where you've printed something that isn't

true or can be proven untrue. I'm not saying you have to confirm or deny it. You know one of these things. But then it's like, okay, so we're liable because we printed something that somebody said which might not be true. And so we've got to take it out because it could be, have the material harmed to the business or whatever. Well, I don't understand this.

And by the way, I'll be the first person to say, I don't know, all of the legal ramifications of printing something somebody said that isn't true, except to say that like, it's not like New York Magazine was making a statement that Brian Singer had parties where he fucked little boys. Correct. It wasn't like a New York magazine. It was not something I wrote. Right, that's right.

I mean, it was- Also, language rise, we just had to parse what little boys mean. So it's not like he said he's a pedophile having sex with children. He said he likes young to diddle young group guys. Also, the word didittle is clearly funny. Definitely. You know, like if it also like has a dark connotation.

It does. It does. Dittle is like, that's what a priest does. Yeah, it feels, there's like a pedophilia quality to it. Right. For whatever reason, I don't fucking know why. Right, but our jokes about Bill Cosby off limits because he allegedly.

Yeah, I don't know, are they? Not in the, I mean, jokes. I mean, the truth doesn't seem to be off limits. Right. Alligations don't seem to be off limits. I mean, Bill Cosby hasn't got a jail for anything. Right. He's improving guilty of anything.

I mean, this gets into, you know, libel law and first amendment stuff. Right. Well, but this actually brings me to like kind of two, we should, should we take a break? We have, we have, sorry. But I just want to, I want to get into this, but I don't want to like then take a break and where it's really good. We take a quick break. We're back with Alaskan. Blue Apron's mission is to make incredible home cooking accessible to everyone. And as I can say, as a person who has eaten many but cooked very few blue Apron meals,

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["The Best of Us"] ["The Best of Us"] Okay, we're back. Alex, that was a great break, wasn't it? Oh, it was fantastic. One of the best. Sorry. So we just went to get to some really meaty shit, which

is like, we're talking about whether you can publish something that somebody says about somebody else. I mean, obviously there are laws that protect this kind of journalism and there are certain protections and there are places where there are protections. But I guess like what I'm more interested in is this, I feel like we're entering a state, I'm not saying maybe this is not a part of it, but maybe it is a state in media where we are becoming suddenly there is a big question

about what the media's role is and what you can and can't say and who has control over what the media can and can't say, right? And I think like you look at this gocker case, and I don't know how much you wanna talk about the gocker case, but I will say that, look, I'm the last person who will defend gocker, because I think they've done a lot of bad shit. But it is a situation where it feels like

giving gocker, getting the death penalty essentially for writing things that people didn't like. Right. Even things that people didn't like. Right. Even things that might have been hurtful. Right. Like with real material hurt that you can prove. Right. It seems extreme. I feel like it created, you know, this chilling effect that everybody talks about,

that Peter Teal could create because he's finding all these lawsuits. Like, are we starting to, to feel that? Yeah, are we starting to feel it? I mean, is this, I'm not saying that this Brian Singer thing is a piece of it, but I will say it is unusual that there have been stories about Peter Tiel and allegations about Peter Tiel that are very, very similar to the allegations

about Brian Singer. And here you have like a case where somebody makes those allegations publicly, you write them what they said, you know, transcribe what this person said, publish it on New York Magazine, and then it's like, oh, wait a second, no, we can't print that.

You know, and that to me is like a scary place. And so I just wonder like, is this the beginning of something, or is this, is this, does this feel like business as usual to you? And can you talk about this? Do you not want to talk about it? So you don't want to talk about it.

So this crap, this whole fucking question. No, I think, no, we can't even talk about this? And do you not want to talk about it? So you don't want to talk about it. So his crap is whole fucking trash. No, I think, no, we can't even talk about it on this podcast. I mean, I think it's a great question. Thank you. Goddamn right, it's great. I don't know if I can answer it as openly as I would like to. As an employee of New York Packers. Yes.

My hands are a little bit tied here. See, that's what I'm talking about. Look at this chilean effect. I agree with you. My cast is got in chill. It is chill. You know, it's chilly. I have to, it is, it's, you know,

and I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth. But I do think it's disturbing. And then like on the flip side, you've got Trump who's now like revoking press credentials for people who cover him in a way that he doesn't like. Right. And I just like, what I actually want to know is like, what's that I'm talking specifically about

New York magazine or whatever, or, but like, what is the logical end to this? I mean, isn't there a duty, don't we have a duty? That's what I would think. I think journalism's duty would be to hold people's feet to the fire, especially those who are in power and are abusing it. Right.

I think that is the journalist core job. And it's ugly. It is. I mean, it's an ugly job. I mean, I don't think anybody, I don't think there's any situation where, you know, anybody ever said, well, I'm gonna go to journalism

and it's gonna be like a real treat. Right. You know, I mean, it's hard fucking work and it's ugly work a lot at the time. And like journalists have the job of exposing some of the worst, some of the worst of what humanity has. Right. But it does scare me a little bit, I have to say,

to think about, you know, because I don't think it's, I don't think it's like one fell swoop, I don't think it's like this one thing happens and everything changes overnight, it's like death by a thousand cuts, you know? And those cuts are so almost imperceptible that we won't notice that it's happening. That we're bleeding to death.

Yeah, and that's right. And it is a scary place to be. Yeah. And that's right. And it is a scary place to be. And I just worry that, I mean, I feel like there's so little trust in the media right now that the public almost is like cheers for it. I mean, when you see the Galkerbird come down, it's like, oh yeah, good, good riddance to Bad Rubbish. And so you throw away all of the good stuff.

And there are many good things that Galker has done. The recent Facebook story that they that they did about The way they were manipulating, you know, their news stories. I mean, I think It just it to me it's a very scary place to be in like as a journalist like you're going this week. You'll do more interviews, right? Yeah, you know, you're gonna tell more stories. You're gonna speak to more people who have totally unpredictable things that they're gonna say Yeah, and there's on And ideally to more people who have totally unpredictable things that they're gonna say. Yeah. And ideally, I'll get them to say unpredictable things. You know, I'll try to get them to off their talking points.

I think that is ideally what I would do. This dude had no talking points, right? Did he have a talking for, was he like, oh, you had, by the way, how great the cast is on the real and the old. I mean, the funny thing is, I mean, I, because I read a lot of interviews with him beforehand, to prep, and a lot of people ask him the same questions, and my sense was that he got bored by those, and he had talking points that he said all the time,

and he, I think the interview, at the moment, felt liberating for him in some sense. How long did you spend with him? An hour. So what's that long? No, but band. What you got out of that hour. So what's that long? No, but band. What you got out of that hour. I'm impressed. All right, I'm going to shift gears. I just, I think, like, there's, we can go, we can go deep on this, but I think there's obviously, like,

limited time limitations and other limitations, where we're not going to. Right. I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about the pulse The nightclub shooting yeah in Orlando You're a gay man. Can I say that is that okay? Yeah, okay? You have my permission. Okay, good. And I'll see you for that. Thank you Your gay man who diddls little boys Sorry, is that wrong? Okay, I hate both of you You know, I'm just that that's what I've heard. I don't know if it's true or not. But, no.

That's good, that's good shit. Sometimes you're like, will I say that thing that I'm thinking, and just like, I guess I will? It's a problem. So, I mean, there's so many levels of this story that, and like, you're not covering it. Are you covering it all? I mean, Vulture specifically obliquely covers it in the sense that Titus Burgess saying at Stonewall yesterday and they'll cover that. There's like kind of a...

We have to find our entertainment angle into it. Right. Yeah. But obviously like this is a kind of a shocking moment in America because it is an act of, I mean, it's a real act of hatred. I mean, all shootings are an act of hatred, but this one feels like, I mean, it's pride month, right? Yes. And it's a gay club and the death is unbelievable, like, and 50 people dead, right?

How many people injured? 49 or 50? 49 dead, I believe. 49 dead. 43 injured. Right. And, um, and it does raise like this, this kind of like is America changing is America going backwards? Like this is what I look at. Like when I see this and when I see like the Trump rhetoric and the following rhetoric from Trump. Mm hmm. Like do you feel like as a gay man in America, you're 31, right?

Yeah. So look, the majority of your life, it's been like, I don't know, it's probably been better than it was for the previous 30 years. Sure, for the generation before me. Right, yeah, absolutely. They had to go through the AIDS crisis. Do you feel like we're going backwards?

Is there a danger of going backwards? Can we, in terms of how people feel and think? I guess I don't know if I think about it in a linear sense like that. I do feel like what this did was show the precarity that everyone kind of feels already, and it has been brought to the forefront in a very real and scary way. Does it feel to you that, I mean, I think that there's like a tremendous effort from the right to make this about Islamic...

Yes. Radical. They're trying real hard to do that. Or terrorism, but like there's actually a narrative that's coming to light about this guy, the killer, that is like he sort of was like a closeted, he was gay. Possibly. I mean, I don't know.

I don't know if that's a regular figuring it out. Yeah, but he was on, like, he was on apps. Drobbling with his sexuality. Right, and he'd been to this club like 10 times. Right, and like the narratives a lot more complex than I think that we originally, Yes. You know, we want to make this, like put it in this really neat box

where it's like, oh, he was radicalized and driven by ISIS to kill people. But this is like kind of almost a very traditional, it feels to me like a much more traditional hate crime, like an American hate crime, where it's not like some kind of major plan to take out a group of people where it's actually like driven by something much darker almost. Yeah, and it's possible that he was trying to exercise something that he felt within himself

which makes it even more complicated. It's like it's like those high school bullies that torture somebody in high school who are struggling with sexuality. Right. This guy bought an assault rifle and he was not a high school bully. He was an adult who knew where to go. It's the same psychology though. I mean, kids, it's schools get beat into the brink of death, but you know, like it's the same, it's like an ugly psychology that I think we've allowed to fester. Because we're busy talking about marriage rights and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

and can trans people pee here or there? But isn't that part of it? I mean, isn't this like to me like all this goes back to? And this is why I'm sort of like, I do feel like this ties it into this continuum of Trump and this like the kind of death, I talk about this, I've talked about this a bunch of times like the death throws of like the white male dominance

in the world and I do feel like, you know, hasn't like the conversation about the Trent like trans community and the conversations about gay marriage exacerbated These feelings like you know, I feel like there's a cornering of like traditional like the traditional American values that we think are like define America. Right. There's a Christian right wing white. I guess what I don't understand is why those values necessarily need to, why they require the oppression of other people. That's a great, I have no fucking idea.

I mean, why me? I mean, I've ruined four marriages today. Personally. Well, as everybody knows, you're probably dittling some Boys young boys. I don't want everyone's husbands and the girl boy is fine dark though I'm like I honestly like I didn't have like a point where I'm like trying to make some like overwhelming statement here about this But it is to me. It's like a really I feel like we're in this a strange Moment in American history where everything seems like it is moving

trending towards a much more progressive and liberal understanding of like ourselves and identity and society. And yet there are these flare ups and I'm trying to figure out where they come from. And how much Donald people like Donald Trump and how much like this kind of flailing of a very extreme part of our, let's say you have these answers. Right. I mean, I feel like you're, because you're a straight white man, you should have the answers. Can you speak for your community? Well, I would be speaking for a... Well, as a straight white man, I do feel very threatened a higher hit. I would hit well.

As a straight white man, I do feel very threatened by gay men. Number one. No. Are you uncomfortable with this conversation? Not at all. No. In fact, I've never been more comfortable. No, first of all, I feel like I am in the one percent of the straight white guys.

You're a woke bro. I don't, I think woke. I think it's uncool to be woke at this point. I think like wokeness has gotten uncool. Like I think there's a situation where it's going. You're wokeness jumped the shark. There are like two woke. Yeah.

Wokenness jumped the mat McGorri. The mat McGorri, mat McGorri ruined wokeness for all white men. You couldn't just be like, I totally like understand where you're coming from. Now it's like, you seem like an asshole if you say that because Matt McGori had to ruin it. Cause he's like, no, you don't know. I'm like a lesbian. I read a book.

I read a book. Whatever, I don't fucking understand. Look, I don't know, I don't get white guys. I mean, I don't like sports. I'm not like, I don't have bros. Like, I really don't. I'm like the wrong guy. But like, guy. But do you feel like maybe it's like what RuPaul, honestly, was talking about in the interview that you did with RuPaul.

It's like he said, it's like it's drag and gainess and stuff like that kind of mocks identity. It proves that this isn't, you wake up every day and you get dressed to look like a guy. That's not the default. And I think it makes people uncomfortable to think like maybe I'm not, maybe like nachos on Super Bowl Sunday and like you know putting up a hot babes rat rat poster in your school locker is not your whole identity.

It's not like the most important thing in the world or the most important thing about you. Well, I think it what it points out is like what at least drag points to is the fact that that's all a performance to what straight white men do to construct their identities, what they thought was the default, what they thought was the norm. Those are all choices that were inculcated into them by culture. They just may not realize how deliberate that was. But I mean, I'm coming to a realization right now.

This whole life has been a lie. Are we woking you? I will. I'm coming to a realization right now. This whole life has been a lie. Are we woking you? I will say this. I do look at the, I will say this all the time. I look at the fashion options that women have and I'm like, this is bullshit. Oh, it is. There's so many options.

And like, yeah, I could wear like a skirt or a dress or whatever, but there's no real like system for me. Right. Like, I'm kind of, you know, it's not going to really happen. So one of the, one of the, one of the first pieces I wrote that for me was the first piece that I felt like I was a writer, was about drop-crotch pants.

And it was essentially an ode to drop-crotch pants. What are drop-crotch pants? I'm trying to think of any of mine. They're like hammer pants. You have to be be be wear with them. They're like nah. Yeah. Does he not wear them?

I mean no, he kind of does. But they're pants where the crotch is very low. Oh yeah, drop-crop pants. Yeah, I know, yeah. They're like a hammer pant with a lean leg. Sure, sure, yeah. The skinny jeans means a hammer pant. Yeah, but there's a room for a diaper.

There's all kinds. That's just going up. There's all kinds of pants. And it was this thing that I wrote about how much I love them because I felt like they offered me something that fashion hadn't before. Which is what? Which was a sense of liberation, a play, fun with identity,

with using fashion as a way to express that identity and thinking of non-gender specific ways to do that. Because I think that when clothes are sort of divided between pants and skirts, it's boring. And there's a whole linguistic option. Like there are linguistic options between that. And drop crutch pants are a literal one that occupies that space.

Well, this is like, to me, I think the worst thing about all these, and by the way, I remember talking to Laura, my wife, about, you know, sort of gender as a construct. And at first being, you know, you know, decade ago, being not resistant to the idea, but it's difficult for, and by the way, I think it's much more difficult for men, for like white straight men to get their head around this than other people, for whatever reason. But like, you know, I was like, no, like, you know, a man, you're a man, you have a penis, like, you know, I was like, no, like, you know, a man, you're a man, you have a penis, like you,

there's like an identity that's baked into that that is like not that it's fake. It's not a construct. It is a fixed thing, right? And it took me a long time to actually think about it differently. And maybe it is like the way that we have the last 10 years that we've had in like the world, you know,

but there now I now I totally I totally understand it and feel like it innately makes sense though It's still to me is like if okay if Zelda my daughter was like I'm a man Mm-hmm, and I think that I'm a man and like I want to and I want to be actually like physically be a man That would be very difficult for me to like comprehend. And not because like I would be angry or reject the idea or whatever, just like you see, you know, a person one way, like you feel like you see that person as they are. And then you have to sort of like, I would have to, for Zeld, of course, who I've known her entire life, would have to completely reorient my idea about who she was in terms of gender, which is very difficult to imagine, very hard to imagine.

To me, that's the new, that to me is a level of, that's a coming out that definitely would be, I would be reeling from, which is very different. I don't know why. I mean, it is, but there's a physical, the physicality to it is meaningful. Yes. It's not like you can just, I mean, well, there, you know,

there's also different expressions in ways in which that happens. Right. But there is like, there is a physical aspect to it for many people that is like, okay, well, there's like biology says one thing and you say another and those are like, well, it's like biology says one thing and you're you say another and those are like well

It's the idea of sex and gender being different things Right, you can have a physical sex and a cultural identity I identity driven gender, but I think for some people they get tied up and I think sometimes for people in the trans community It's obviously those are tied together because they're in their own bodies. But I think for people looking at people, it's hard, especially, I mean, a lot of people I know are comfortable with trans people and are calling for both of it and they're active about it. But when they do come to talk about their parents or their kids for some reason, there's a

body connection. I don't know if it's psychological or cold. Unimbeasing? Well, there's like a genetic, like I'm, we're all, I don't know. Maybe it's like an avatar and stuff, but like we're all connected, we're better connected. You'd feel like an ownership over those kind of bodies. The body that you came from or that you made and you don't want to see it change. That is it. We're in some deep shit here. We are in some life.

Here we are. We're in the room. We're in some deep shit here. We are in some way. Here we are. We're in dorm room. We're in dorm room. Stoner situation. I know. Could you clap past the bunk please? Seriously. Unfortunately, I think we actually have to wrap up. At the moment of an intense like revelation here, there's like a lot more I want to talk about than we were kind of all over the place here. A little bit. No, this is normal. This is really, like I really enjoyed this conversation. I'd like to continue this conversation.

You have to come back and talk more. Great. Once we figure out what happened with all this editing, this editing situation, once you can really do a deep dive on it. But so you're writing, you're at Vulture. I can find you're writing a Vulture. You can.

Anywhere else that I should be looking for your work, anywhere else that people who are listening to this should be looking for you. As of right now, no. But you can read other things that I've written in the past. Do they, should they? I think a lot of the stuff that I've written that are more essayistic, I like more in some ways.

All right, any parting words for the audience? For this very Confused to have audience Anything you want people to know about you. I think you like to tell us I'm not really comfortable talking about myself, so really yeah Okay, good. Well Alex, thank you for coming. Thank you for being here and you have to come back. Thank you so much. Well that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week more tomorrow. And as always I wish you and your family the very best. But unfortunately for you, your family is out gender bending and you're standing at the ballot box trying to vote for Trump.