Tomorrow - Episode 61: Sally Kohn is Radical

Episode Date: July 11, 2016

(Tomorrow News) – Unnamed sources in New York tell us that JOSHUA TOPOLSKY and CNN political commentator and writer SALLY KOHN sat down to discuss the horrible events this week. Reports are coming in that they attempt to grapple with the political and social realities America is facing, reflect on the issues the white community needs to own up to, and try and sort out exactly who's facing the worst abuse on Twitter. Though there's no way they could solve any of this themselves, we're hearing that they came to some pretty enlightening conclusions and simply hope to have started a dialogue on where we need to go. We'll update you on the situations as Episode 61 unfolds. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow, I'm your host, Josh with Sipulski. Today on the podcast, we discuss existentialism, whiteness, and Twitter. But first, a word from our sponsors. Tomorrow is supported by city cards with Android Pay. Listening on your phone, now you can pay while you listen using the same device. Just tap and go. Download the Android Pay app on Google Play or visit city.com slash Android Pay to get started. Android Pay is available for eligible city consumer credit cards and debit cards. Look, real watch collectors don't pay retail and neither should you. Crowning Calibur is the smartest way to buy or sell your luxury watch. You know what certified

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talking about the highly controversial Sally Cone. Good to be home with you. You like that? I'm being called worse. So, okay. So before, so you're on CNN now, you're writing, you're talking right now. Okay. Yes, you are talking right now. Do you go on, how much are you on TV versus like writing stuff or just like thinking? What's the, I don't know, I don't know how much there's like thinking.

That's cool. We need to do a pie chart here Well, I contrary to what you may have heard from internet trolls. I do try to be thinking all the time No, I don't very I've read some comments on Twitter that say otherwise You know the the world of a pundit is an interesting thing so it flexes up and down It could be a couple times a day. Yeah Depending on the news. It could be not at all for a week, but it's usually a handful of times a week, three to five times a week, or like that.

What's the earliest they would disturb you to go on television? Oh, you know, the morning shows starts at, you know, five, six, seven a.m. You can, you know, show up at that time. I've done it from the West Coast too, which is, which is the middle of that. Which is really, it's brutal.

It's like two in the morning, or where? It's really brutal. Yeah, that's a nightmare. So before CNN, you were on Fox. And you were, and just grab me, I want to go a little bit, I got one here a little bit, maybe you can give me a little bit of a short bio, but for people who are listening who don't know.

And for me, because I don't know all the details. Damn you. I did do a lot of investigation, but you were on Fox as kind of like a Fox villain. Like, like, they're, they're villain is something who's like, and tell me if any of this is wrong, but like, Oh, I will. Relatively liberal, progressive.

How many Fox have you watched? I'm just saying that would be a villain. That would be a villain. Right, so no, I mean, look, yes, so when I started out as a baby pundit, I did what baby pundits do and go on all the different cable news channels. I'm going to see it in Fox and I ended up first being hired by Fox about a year into this field. And so no, there's actually a number of progressive somewhere between liberal and progressive commentators on Fox news at any given time. I was one of the more progressive. I was one of, I want to say,

to openly gay people on air on the network. So I had that wonderful distinction of being both progressive and openly gay on Fox News. That's it. It's tough on. I will say, and folks can go find my TED talk on this if they're really interested But I will say I came to Fox News having not watched I don't even own a television still So I hadn't watched much. I'd only seen what I got really yeah, that's true What I saw on like you know daily show clips like a forwarded round and Which are all really bad, you know, you know, I would represent the extremes And so the fact the matter is you know Fox

Like any place has its, you know, its spectrum and it has some very good app, you know, like straight news, journalist shows. I mean, if people haven't watched Shep Smith on Fox News, then they have a very, you know, a singular picture, but it also has its Hannity. It's so Riley. You will admit, though think you're being very nice to Fox, maybe that's contractual, I don't know. No, totally on my own. But I know you've got a lot of friends there.

I'm sure you have to see these people all the time at like, punditry conventions or whatever, whatever you guys do. But they do have a fairly clear position. It seems like an overarching position. I mean, they're certainly run by and owned by people who seem to have a very clear position. Yeah, there's no question.

I mean, the only point I'm making is, if, listen, I'm not like offering up a whole-hearted defensive. I don't know if it sounds like the last person. But no, but merely my point being that I came to the network thinking, oh, it's only this one thing. Right. And it was more diverse and you expected. It's more diverse. Clearly, my point being that I came to the network thinking, oh, it's only this one thing. It's only-

And it was more diverse. And it was more diverse. And it was more diverse. It's more, I mean, you know, it's a news organization in New York City. Right. You know, it's got, you know- It's hard to forget that. It's hard to stop the news organization in New York City without getting some, you

know, liberal Democrats in there too somewhere behind the scenes in front of the scene. So yeah. But I also was just, it was more than I was surprised. I had these sort of preconceived notions. And by the way, I had preconceived notions even about the likes of Hannity, who I ended up finding out was a really nice person, much to my sugar. Niceer than some of the anchors at MSNBC. The nice, but nice person.

I'm doubly, I'm sure very nice behind the scenes, very cordial, very warm and welcoming, but it kind of a bad person for reality, for humanity. Here's the thing I, I, I, I, you know, Hila was very nice to his dogs. That's the one that Laura and I, my wife and I, I, he's a vegetarian. He was apparently very loving to his dogs. He was a vegetarian. You know what's interesting? You know, I'm writing a book right now about

incivility and meanness and hate and evil. And there's two things worth noting. One, across the board, so far, from what I found. People who you and I, I hope most people, certainly most people listening, would agree are evil people who do evil things. Terrorists, white supremacists, they don't think of themselves as evil. They don't think they're doing something bad. They think they're doing something good. So this is sort of an interesting perspective that,

number one, but number two, I also have come to think that conservatives are nicer in specific conservatives are nicer in specific to humanity or nicer to people in specific, but sort of meaner in general to like the eye, you know, to they have a sort of more negative view of people as a whole. Right. Right. And progressives are the opposite. We are very nice and positive about people as a whole as a general group, but actually not. We're dicks and person. We're kind of mix and specific. Well, I think there are a couple of layers to that. I mean, it's hard to walk around feeling right all the time and not get angry.

No, it is, no, but it is you've got to admit there is a certain level to that. I'm not saying that we actually are. I look at, obviously, I lean more progressive, I don't know that I've used the word liberal now because liberals become in this weirdly tainted word. It's complicated. It is complicated.

Like liberalism in its extreme is also, in many ways, as bad as conservatism in its extreme. I come across as a progressive and aspiring radical. I feel like my, I still have more to learn and I'm being radicalized every day. And I feel like the events of the world, if you're not paying attention, I mean, how could you not be radicalized?

Yeah, well, that's, but that is part of the problem is that we're all being radicalized to some degree. But, well, I mean, we were, And radicalized, let me, let me, like not radicalized in like this, like in places, like in places, like in places, like in places. Yeah, I mean, that kind of radicalized.

I mean, in terms of having a more radical viewpoint about how much the system and society needs to change in order to actually achieve justice and quality. Because what you see is like, and we'll get into this because of this, I mean, the world looks like it's getting completely fucking insane right now. I mean, we've got my lead to curse. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is a free for all. All right, so let me be clear.

The world has been fucking insane for a really long time. It's just now we have the internet and especially cell phone cameras to point that shit out. Well, they're yes, absolutely, but also because we have those things, to that radical point, it magnifies and amplifies and focuses in a way that is not always true, right? That is not always honest, right? And so like something that seems like, for instance, a shooting, by the way, I am in no way defending a shootings that have happened recently, but a shooting that happens in a city somewhere far away from here can seem now, at this moment, to me, a person sitting in New York as like a very emotional and important thing it's happening to

me, but it's not actually happening to me. It's happening to people somewhere else. And the idea of what is happening is important to like think about and act on. But the internet does tend to, I think, and I'm not trying to put words in anybody's mouth here. I'm saying from my perspective, it can also create a, that radicalization is good because it does make you want to take action.

But then there's a level beyond that where, you, I think you can be too wrapped up in, or too caught up in the idea that like, you have, have a I think that leads to the very the very far reaches of of radical thought which is which is dangerous. You know. This is interesting. The what's interesting is that you're right in part because of the nature of social media and just the nature media in general, our perception of risk and fear and sort of things that happen in distant places feeling kind of closer to us has changed.

At the same time, what I'm really struck by is that who we relate to when we hear those stories remains incredibly divided. So to give some example, so I often will people I'll be talking to, you know, kind of white liberal-ish suburban or sort of Brooklynites like yourself who have kids and they'll say you have kids, okay. And they'll say, well, you know, it's it's really dangerous you know we can't let my kid go out and play in the yard now it's not as safe as when I was a kid is you know actually it is as safe like it's it's actually safer it is statistically safer now to be my kid than when I was a kid statistically say I have this argument with people all the time but we now hear the stories of

every time a little white kid is abducted, every time a little white, and white parents, white people, white liberal, here are those stories and go, oh my gosh, it's not a safe, right? We hear the stories of terrorism, we feel like it's not a safe, we're more fearful. But we don't hear other stories and translate that into our own lack of safety. So the, again, the same sense of sort of compounding incidents, compounding examples that, that my black friends are feeling are from police violence, are from the repeated shootings of, you know, black men and women for no reason whatsoever

or under incredibly suspicious circumstances over and over and over again. And they see all of that, which again has been going on for time in memoriam, but is now present in our minds and our social media feeds and our television. And they feel a certain fear. But it's disturbing to me, for instance, it's disturbing that it's happening. But it's also disturbing to me that we don't seem to care. Shift art. Right.

I mean, the other example to me that is so striking is when the Charlie of Doe shootings happen in Paris, you know, the mainstream largely white media all descended in Paris, the world's attention, the Western world's attention, the white attention was focused on Paris the same day that happened. 18 people, I think we're killed, I want to say 18 people were killed in Paris. The same day that happened about 200 people were killed by Bocahorm terrorists, Muslim radical terrorists, right, in Nigeria. Yeah. The world's attention did not descend on Nigeria. And you could say, well, it's about, you know, Islamic extremism. I'm like, oh, no, those are, it's also our,

who we care about as victims. Well, it's also the systems. I mean, the thing you were talking about before, I mean, we have such foundational rot in our systems that it's like, I think about this all the time. Our media is set up to be a Western focused, Western focused, white focused media, which is such a deep and multi-layered system of that perspective that it's,

where is the apparatus, where are the people rushing? There's no systems put in place in most newsrooms where you go, oh, that's an important story we have to cover, we even understand the apparatus, where are the people rushing? There's no systems put in place in most newsrooms where you go, oh, that's an important story we have to cover. We even understand the story. Let's go down there and cover it. It's easy. Paris is easy for this system because it's always been part of it. Yeah, that's probably true to a point, but I guarantee if it had been a tour bus of white Americans killed by Boko Haram. The media would have found a way.

But white Americans are part of their... Well, and this has to do with our sphere of moral concern. And let's be clear, let's be explicit that the issue, and I don't wanna speak for the entire world, but the sort of Western world, it's, and certainly in the United States, our sphere of moral concern as a nation generally includes white people.

And it generally does not include, not white people, it generally includes Christians, generally includes Jews, it does not include Muslims, it generally includes Native Worns, it just not includes immigrants, it's right. And this, and what's sad is I always thought of the American political project and sort of moral project as a broadening of that sphere of moral concerns. And not just political, which we've done haltingly and imperfectly, but we've done gradually

over time, expand our formal kind of legal sphere of moral, legal concerns. Right. and our formal legal sphere of legal concern. Our laws, yeah. Political concern, but our actual moral concern is sort of moral hierarchy of whose lives matter more. And that's what when people say, oh, it's not Black Lives Matter, it's all lives matter. Yes, a fucking court all lives matter. That's the worst.

That's the worst. That's the worst. That's the point. And the problem is, right now in our society, Black Lives do not matter as much. They are not treated as valuable. And there problem is right now in our society, black lives do not matter as much. They are not treated as valuable. There's a crisis around like when it comes to black lives. There's a crisis that is happening that is based on systemic racism and all sorts of that's not the only cause but is a large part of it. And it's like where all lives do matter. No question.

We can just say that as a blanket statement, we can say you should be appreciative of like human life. That should be something that we strive to protect in any regard, right, in any situation. But there's a particular focused crisis that has been occurring for a very long time that now we are starting to see and it feels like, and this is the thing that I always wonder, and I love your view on this. There's a couple of things you mentioned I want to go back to, but I'm, we'll have to keep moving forward with this.

But I'd like, is it, is it, has it always been this way? Because like, listen, the reality is, I don't live in a black neighborhood in St. Louis. So I have no idea how bad it's been there, but now lately, my impression is, it's pretty fucking bad. So has it always been this bad and we have never seen it like we, the people who are not there? Or is it worse now?

And I would really like to talk about, I have some theories about if it's worse and why it's worse. But I'd like to hear your take on that. Well, I'll be completely honest with you. I don't have much interest in that conversation. Only because if you want to have that conversation, I mean, bring some black folks in. For your listeners, I am very, very white.

No, but I'm not saying like, I don't want to. What I'm saying is like, is the statistically speaking, is this something that has just been going on that we just haven't seen? Well, I mean, part of the problem is we haven't systemically collected data and talked about, you know, sort of police involved shootings over time. But, you know, if you talk to folks in the black community, they will say, no, the violence is not new, the only thing new is the cell phone cameras. But look, we could sit here pontificating about black lives until the cows come home. I actually think what is worth

talking about is white lives and white privilege, whiteness in general, and what I will say is that is not new. The, in my experience, whiteness is not new. And the, and the desire of whiteness to rationalize black suffering as somehow justified by circumstance by, you know, that is not new. That is not at all new. And the failure of white people to be willing to be self-critical, to not just, and even in this moment, sort of not say, oh, I'm the good white liberal because I posted Black Lives Matter, so I'm done.

I got this. And not think the problem is just the people who don't say that, but the problem is us. If you are white, you have to look at how this system exists and you have benefited from at how this system exists and you have benefited from it and it continues. It is perpetuated and you have to actually be willing to be, sit with that discomfort for some time, to be in the mess of that and to not just sort of push away

and say, look, I did the hashtag, I'm good, or I'm not the kind of white person who's a problem. The problem isn't, and it's also not about blaming white people. It is whiteness. Michael Erickdyson said whiteness is blindness. It is a refusal, in fact, a learning through your life to only see the world in a certain way. And we have to start changing that.

That is for sure nothing new. And I don't know, I don't know how we, And we have to start changing that. That is for sure nothing new. And I don't know, I don't know how we, I mean, maybe, maybe what is different. In other words, I don't think the conversation, the suffering, the state violence against the black community is different. I think what is different is that growing parts of the white community now hopefully see it. Yeah. But then what you do with that,

how that translates not to a broader conversation and shift in whiteness and the place of whiteness in America so that we can actually start to achieve real equality and see that by the way in our best interest too. It doesn't mean you lose something. It doesn't, you know, it's not like, equality isn't a pie.

Somebody gets more, you get less. Well, I think we do a lot of zero sum thinking in this world where we go like, if you win, I lose, and vice versa, which is in this case, I don't see, there's no loser in making a more equal society for everybody, like it is better for everybody. I wanna, we should take a quick break.

Okay, sure. And then we're gonna come back, I wanna, it says intense. I mean, it's, you're sorry, it's an intense time. No, it is, I wanna actually, I actually haven't even- It's a really shitty time. It's a shitty time,

and we haven't even talked about specifically, like, we're very up in like a thousand feet, 10,000 feet here, but I wanna take a quick break and then talk more about this and talk more about the future of America. This episode of Tomorrow is brought to you by BrainTree. Developers around the world have embraced the BrainTree V.0 SDK as the easiest way to add secure mobile payments to their apps and websites. No matter what payment type, BrainTree accepts it, Apple Pay, Android Pay, PayPal, Venmo, credit cards, even Bitcoin if you're the daring type.

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So we're talking about How far do I have America is? We're actually kind of in a fish bowl. We are a little bit in a fish bowl. So this is like so we're this conversation Look at it back. It's so much of some of the because this is gonna now that I know it's very hard We were we were talking offline about Twitter earlier and it's very hard to not See everything I say through the eyes and my friggin' trolls, but I should be clear, I think America remains

in great place, this whole like making our society great again, it's already great, it's getting better, we're evolving, we're, you know, it is a, you know, as a gay woman, it is a better time to be a gay woman now than at any point in the history of this country. Like we, we are imperfect, we are unjust, we are stumbling, but I do actually believe in both this country as it is and the idea of America. So I want to be clear. No, I can be clear. And by the way, I agree. But I am always sound like I'm shit talking America and it's believe me.

But like, but here we are. No, it is, it is an amazing, we live in an amazing country and it is getting better. And I do think that thing you're saying about the statistics, it's easy by the way to go to look around and look at Twitter and just and look at the news and go like, we are plunging into it. And I do think that we are in this like,

feels like we're one on the one hand plunging into apocalypse and on the other hand, we're like reaching for something that's never been reached for before and we're getting there. And so like there are these two combative elements and you see both of them. And it's hard to know to feel like

we're making any real progress, but we definitely are. But that doesn't mean like America being great, which by the way, I don't wanna use like Trump's lingo, but like because it is, it houses it has become the thing that you say. But America being great, greatness, that greatness happens through like tremendous effort.

Yes. Like it didn't happen. Somebody didn't just go like, they just wrote the constitution and they're like, it's done now. It's not done. Like that's just the start, right? And like we have to keep refining that.

I mean, that's the tricky part. It's like it's very hard to refine certain things in America. Like guns, very hard to refine how we think of guns and what they do here because you've got this document that says something very, very clearly and simply. Yeah, that's complicated. All right, so a couple of points. First of all, one, just very quickly on the second amendment, people should go back, they should do the reading.

It wasn't until the 1980s that we even interpreted the Constitution, the Second Amendment to protect an individual, right, to bear arms. Right. There's actual language in the Constitution that is... Correct. Yeah. And in the 1970s, the NRA actually supported the, I believe it was in the 1970s, the assault weapon ban.

Right? So, for the first almost 100 years of its existence, the NRA did not oppose gun control. So this is a relative reason to think. The other thing I'm going to say to your point is broadly speaking, and not in that, this is somewhat of a, well, broadly speaking, some of what or a lot of what we're seeing right now in our society, in our culture, in our politics is a reaction to progress. Yes. This is what I wanted to talk about.

It is, no, I do not think that the reason we have white racial resentment and misogyny is solely because of the recent changes in our system, but they're related. Right. And conspiracy. And I don't think, look, you have two phenomena. You have economic stagnation, real wage stagnation. People, you know, are economies growing, the wealth you're getting wealthier, and working folks are seeing their wages in real dollars, stay the same or go down. That is a real felt problem at the same time. People are experiencing

that. White people are experiencing that and seeing their communities become more racially and ethnically diverse, seeing more women working, seeing a black president. And also seeing their own political power and influence decline. Well, as it naturally would once a society becomes more diverse, once a nation becomes more diverse. Right, but again, it's that it's seeing equality as a fixum as opposed to a sort of a collective destination.

When Trump talks about the America that's going to be great, the America that he envisions, it is a 1950s, I mean, it's not our mod, it's not some version of a future America. It's an America that feels a lot more like an old America. And for the people who look like Donald Trump, beautiful blonde, blonde haired people, naturally blonde, whatever his character is. You call Donald Trump beautiful?

Yeah, beautiful, orange, orangey blonde people. I feel bad, I don't ever want to insult Donald Trump's looks, even though they are extremely bizarre, because he's got other bigger things to insult. But he is America is a throwback to when there was a ton of racism and a ton of sexism and like almost everybody was subjugated to the and was at the whim and will of the white, of a white patriarchal society, which is still the way it is. But this is a thing that I find most interesting is what I want to talk about,

actually I want to ask you about. I just want to say, we are in it is Friday morning. I should say, because this is gonna go up on Monday and I wanna set the stage. So this week there have been two, and now maybe three,

because I was reading on Twitter right before I came in here, and there may be another shooting. Two, Sure, there's plenty we don't know about well I'm sure but there were two very very visible seemingly unprovoked shootings of black men by police this week Philando Castillo in St. Louis correct and and and Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge. And, you know, then the last night, late last night,

there was a protest in Dallas. And apparently snipers, there were snipers at this protest who killed, shot 11 cops, killed five of them. I think most of these, the people who are doing the shooting are now in custody. One has been killed by, and I, this, I read. That we know at this point. So there's a total of four. There's a total of four people who are shooting. And one of them has been killed. And we know of it. That we know of.

But I was reading on Twitter before coming in here that, uh, who's a reliable source of ever. Well, this is like from the Dallas PD that they used a robot with a bomb to kill, to kill this, I'm not laughing because it's funny, I'm laughing because it's insane to kill this suspect who apparently had planted bombs himself or herself. I don't really know. They threatened that they had you.

Allegedly, I have no idea how much of this is, we don't know yet, but we're in a moment at this today. Every day is stressful in America, every day is stressful in the world. There's all kinds of crazy shit happening all the time, but it feels like this week, well this year has been a motherfucker, but this week feels particularly focused on the crazy,

on the things that seem like they shouldn't be happening, but they are, and I mean, as much for the cops who got shot as the black men who shouldn't have been shot, like nobody should be getting shot in these situations. Right. You know, and my, you know, so, but I do feel like we are reaching this kind of, I don't know that it's a fever pitch. I feel like it's just the opening strains

of a very bad symphony, which is like, a certain segment of the US population, I think a predominantly white, I think there is a predominantly male vibe to it, feels cornered right now. I think Donald Trump is a product of a- Cornered is a great way of putting it. You know, and I think that- And I get it. Like, if you've lived your entire life in power, and now you see that power slipping away to people who are unfamiliar to you, that you are, that you either fear or don't understand.

Like I understand why you want to, like why you would lose your mind. But I, but, but hasn't, how much responsibility does the Republican party have? Cause I think they've got a fucking load of responsibility. And I'm not trying to be like, I know everybody, everybody lists as already thinks I'm like a liberal maniac, because I think they've got a fuckload of responsibility. And I'm not trying to be, like, I know everybody, everybody listed as already thinks I'm like a liberal maniac, but I do think, who you are. I am, but I'm a highly radicalized liberal,

but I do think they have let, and just the way Britain in many ways let the crazies control the direction of their country. I do think, or at least a big part of it. I do think like we've got a situation here where people who've been back into a corner who are lashing out, who are not ready for modernity, have been stoked by this party. And how much responsibility should they take for it?

Okay, a couple thoughts. At first, well, I'm not gonna call him crazy. Yeah, of course. I'm not gonna call him crazy, so I'm gonna dial. And I think, you know, look, we have politics. It's a ignorance. I'm not gonna say that.. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that.

I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that.

I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that.

I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. than particular plate into this, encourage just sort of a zero sum phenomenon, especially with respect to group and identity, that, you know, well, if they get more, that means you get less in terms of equality, right? Right. That women and people of color and gay people getting equality somehow means less for social conservatives or working class white folks or whatever. But, I mean, it's a very frustrating,

it's a very frustrating and emotional time. I do think what we are experiencing is a backlash between, and I do think this election in a way is an opening salvo or sort of a, act maybe in a fundamental clash in this country between people who, imperfectly, because I don't wanna sort of give a pass to all people on the sort of liberal left or whatever,

but people who imperfectly, and still maybe need to, their analysis and their own work needs to continue, but who, generally speaking, see the expanding of the American Dream as a good thing, who see that as a positive march toward progress. And those who, you know, look, Donald Trump in 1989, And those who, you know, look, Donald Trump in 1989, in 1989 said, and I'm paraphrasing what said that if he could do it all over again, he would come back as a black man because he thinks that black people have certain advantages over white people. He said this in 1989. And that view, that view is not, he's not alone.

And in a lot of ways, that mindset, I think, presages some of the mindset behind not all, but not the only motivation for supporting Trump and for a really rather, more of what Trump has tapped into, right? It's not the only motivation, but it is a sense that equality for all threatens the historic supremacy of some. And to that point, it's very interesting there's some economists who've studied, documented something that they call a last place aversion. And in the studies, the subjects and the research studies have, there's a ranking of wealth, right?

And it's by dollars. So, you know, some people, they're told that there are some people who have a dollar, some people have two dollars, some people have three dollars, four dollars, maybe up to ten, something like that. And the experiment is, you're told you are somewhere in that economic ranking and you have two dollars. Who you're going to give the two dollars to, you can give it to the person immediately above you

or immediately below you in the economic hierarchy. Right. And obviously, if you give it to the person below you, they jump above you in the hierarchy. Across the study, cross groups, you know, different subjects, everyone will give their two dollars to the person below them. Who the fuck wouldn't? You're gonna give the two dollars to the person who has less than you everyone will give their $2 to the person below them. Oh, the fuck wouldn't.

You're going to give the $2 to the person who has less than you. Why would you give it to the person who has more than you accept? Except. Except for when they do the research in the study, you're at the say $2 level. You're your second place to last. And then those subjects are more likely to give the money to the person above them in the ranking because if they gave it to the person below them Then they would be in last place. Yeah, no one wants to be in last place and you know, it's interesting when There's always been a set of people who said oh, you know poor white folks were working last white folks

I'm voting against their self interest. Well, they're not their self interest is to not be in last place and white supremacy and racial oppression in this country has insured that at least socially and politically white people aren't in last place. Right. You may be broke. Yeah. You may be just as broke as anybody else. Right.

And you may be subject to all of the same... At least you're white. ...shit. But like, you'll be more protected in some level. It's unlike vagal. I get the offensive thing with when people say white trash as if they want to distinguish themselves from other trash like at least have this medal. We have multicultural.

Oh, you know, the thing is that I'm not going to go there. I could have gone there. I didn't go there. You know, what Donna Trump has promised people is prosperity through bigotry. That is what he's selling. He's saying, think about this. He's saying that in the United States of America, the way to prosper is through bigotry and discrimination.

By the way, unfortunately, an argument that is steeped in American history. Look at colonial America. Colonial America was prosperity through bigotry. The colonization of America in the first place was prosperity through bigotry, slavery, the, the, you know, entire economy of the country and certainly the South was prosperity through bigotry. So there's a long line of that, prosperity through bigotry. So there's a long line of that, you know, history, but it's you again, you'd hope we are moving beyond it. But that's so we, but I think it feels like, okay, to me, that is the minority voice in America. I believe not, and I don't mean minorities. I mean, I do believe, and I do think this is true,

and maybe you'll disagree that, and I've talked about this a bunch on the show, the death throws of white male power, which I think is like a trope that's real. I'm experiencing this white male, I mean, I feel my power being taken away every day, and I love it, by the way. I'm happy to not have so much responsibility,

please, just let me relax. I'm going to stop throwing all these switches. But the thing is, I do feel that this country is moving to a more progressive place, that we're voting more progressively, that how quickly gay marriage became, when from being illegal and banned to being the law of the land. I do feel like we've accelerated some of that stuff, but we're not close to done, right? And it's going to be, it's like the question is, how do we mitigate, how do we mitigate, not honestly you have this answer, but what I'm like, the thing that frightens me

and worries me every day is like, how do we mitigate or control this rage that people feel? Because the rage when it spills over, like it does, you know, the shootings, we don't know all the details in about the shootings in Dallas. But there is now, there's now a cycle of violence from from shootings to protest to shootings that feels bad, it feels wrong, it feels like the wrong direction, and it feels like there's got to be some way to mitigate this rage. There's got to be some way, you know, you said something at the beginning, I actually, this is something I want to go back to, and I'll go back to it now, because it's sort of related about evil, people being

evil, like ISIS or, you know, terrorists or anyhow. And not saying this to challenge you, I'm curious to know what you're taking on this, but I do have, you know, when, many years ago when I met my wife, who's also a writer, we had a lot of arguments about like evilness, like if evil existed, because I was sure having grown up in America in a fairly traditional way, like yes, there are evil people,

like Hitler is evil, right? Like terrorists are evil, like they're bad people. But we had a lot of arguments and she's got this very humanist view, which is evil, right? Like terrorists are evil. Like they're bad people. But we had a lot of arguments and she's got this very humanist view, which is like they might not have been in the right with the right to the circumstances, with the right kind of people around them, with the right in the right world, right? The people aren't inherently born evil or born bad. And I think that's true. And I do wonder like, this isn't about, like, stop these people waiting for these people to die out or something.

It's about changing the way their brains work. It's about changing what they think. It's about changing their level of ignorance or understanding. And how do we do that? Is there any way to do that? Like, I don't know that you know, but I'm just thinking like,

I have all the answers. Oh, do you? Finally. Is it like what you're talking about empathy? And don't you feel like if you want someone to feel empathetic for you, doesn't it start with trying to understand everyone's trying to be a good person?

Yeah, well, it's like when it's trying to understand what they're doing, what they're doing. Everyone has good intentions, even if they're self-preservation intentions. You know, I mean, here's the, I mean, the short answer is, you know, there's a whole, there's a whole, no, this is an interesting day to have this conversation because I,

I'm, I'm feeling, um, morose and existential. Um, you came to the right place. Right. Uh, I want to challenge somewhat the premise of the question, I think, um, only in so far as the views that you might say are the sort of marginal minority sort of extreme resentment rage. I have heard expressed by quote unquote white liberals, democratic voters. I mean, I've heard, I've heard people say, oh, I've heard people say white white liberals liberal liberals. Yeah, you know, uh, You know, oh, I probably didn't get that job because I'm white, but you know, that's a good thing right now That right there is the assumption that it's a I mean like how we could spend an hour just unpacking that right but the assumption is well if we were going purely on merit I of course as the white person deserved this right was probably given I have no actual facts and

knowledge it was probably given to a person of color only because of affirmative action and and oh but but I'm a good liberal so I support that, even though I just actually expressed it in deeply with a sense of full. But those people kind of lie, aren't they? It's for us. And they're kind of, I mean, in the idea that they are. Oh, that they don't.

They're like, I'm so happy about that. No, but I think if you're up for a job as you. Even if you were telling the truth, it still fucked up, right? It's still a high statement. Because all of this starts with I, right, every white person releases their statement on Twitter saying, I'm so sad. And it assumes and it goes back to, but it also goes back to an assumption of the purity and goodness of whiteness, the deserving, the deservingness, the right that what you

have, you earned and worked for, and what others have, they are unfairly given. As opposed to the reality, which is, listen, whiteness has for 270 plus years in this country, bestowed a set of unerned privileges, of unerned benefits. But that's the reason that the rule is. But I mean, I'm like, can I give another example?

Yeah. Oh, the only reason that the rule is. But I mean, I'm like, can I give another example? Yeah. Oh, the only reason so and so is on this TV show or panel, I've heard these as a cable news person, they're like, oh, you know, they needed a black person, right? Well, like the other seven chairs are filled by white people. Statistically, you're more likely to get on the damn shelf of your white person, but the assumption is the white people deserve to be there. Right.

And in fact, if it weren't for this sort of political correctness of affirmative action, we would, it could all be white people. Because that would actually be, quote unquote, better. I mean, that's that, that's, and this is, this comes from, this comes from liberals. Yeah, but that's, but that's, I'm not defending that. I'm saying. Oh, because I was going to be fun if you tried. No, I'm not going to.

But I will say this. And it got I hope to come off as a defense of that attitude. But there is some foundation like we have been this weird world view has been drilled into us in America. Into like, I'm not defending again, the people say that. But it's almost they don't, you can't even see beyond their weird. So it's time to see. I agree.

That's it. I mean, that's just it. It's their weird. So it's time to see. I agree. That's it. I mean, that's just it. It's not just seeing. It's also accepting and understanding. Like, I mean, you're talking about a level of self-awareness that is very difficult for even the most intelligent people to get to, but you know, like,

I'm not there. But structurally, everything is wrong. Structurally everything is position in one direction and we're trying to position another. It's like, you're like, okay, the house, it's a great house, but the foundation is rotting. You've got to raise the house and put a new foundation in which is very difficult to do, right?

Like, you have to keep the house in one piece while building a new foundation underneath it. And I feel like that's very difficult for people to feel in there. We have fucking flipped the house renovation shows on every, you know, I thought I'd watch when I've in hotels but they never read the entire foundation of the house.

But like, you know, not taking it out, lifting it up with a crate and then putting a new foundation out of your teeth. What's interesting to me is the American political project was literally designed to do just that, maybe without the House metaphor, but written into our founding documents, written it into the principles of our country was this idea that it is an imperfect political project and that we, the people, get the chance to reform and reshape and revise that political

project every chance we get. And we have, right? We have to remember that for, you know, a considerable amount of time in this history, we didn't let white men without property vote. We didn't let women vote. We didn't let black people vote. We didn't, right? That's just voting, right?

Forget equal access to other things. We forget, you know. And now we don't have a shit about voting. People say, oh, you know, Jim Crow laws. It was so long ago. wasn't that fucking long ago. Like that, and, and, you know, have we left the legacy of that behind? No, but at least thank God we turned that actual chapter on those horrible things, the internment of Japanese Americans during global, like we've done horrible things in this country. And not that long ago, and we are

actually able to improve, we are able to improve as human beings. We are able to learn and grow and change. And therefore, we are as a country. That is where I do remain fundamentally positive and optimistic. Right. But this is to my point is isn't the solution, and this is where I go back to that,

like how much blame does the Republican Party or Donald Trump have in this current state of affairs? And I don't think, look, I think Obama's victory like how much blame does a Republican Party or a Donald Trump have in this current state of affairs? And I don't think, look, I think Obama's victory and having a black man in the highest office of this land has been terrifying to the most, I'm not gonna say crazy, I will say ignorant and less empathetic people in our country who have their own reasons

for the, I mean, the ignorance is not like an attack on them. Ignorance is real. It happens, right? But like, we have coddled that ignorance. We have used it. I mean, the right, the tea party and the letting the tea party become a meaningful part of, or at least that thinking and party become a meaningful part of, or at least that thinking and ideology become a meaningful part of what was already a fairly extreme party

in terms of diversity, equality, socialist thinking, even when socialist thinking is good, you know, which is most of the time. But we'll bleep that, right, Ryan? But they have let it fester. And what changes people, the thing that you're talking about where white liberals are saying shitty things about their position and their place in the world is as much about a need to change the way we really think in our core. I mean, it's the same for them as it is for the people who are like, I got to protect my land and I got

my, I need my guns and you screw all these black people. Right, but here's the thing. To the, to the same extent, and I do take this cue from Black Lives Matter activists. I've talked to racial justice leaders in general, writers, thinker scholars who've said, stop talking about the black community, what the black community has to done. We've done our part. This is about white people. You don't have to fix this. This is your system.

You have to fix it. Talk to your, you know, get your, get your own system, you have to fix it, talk to your, you know, get your, get your own house straight. You actually wrote a great piece on Washington Post about that kind of about this where you talk to activists. It's really good. Black Lives Matter activists about what white people can do. Yeah. Their words, not mine, but what white people can do to support Black Lives Matter.

So within that spectrum though, I don't want... Yes, I... Listen, I mean, let's go there. Let's talk about what the Republican Party has done to demonize communities of color in systemic ways from Nixon through Reagan, through my friend Newt Gingrich calling Barack Obama the food stamp president, right? Like, we can talk about that. And I also think there's a piece of this is about our own house. And when I say my own house, my own house is white liberals. And, you know, let's be clear,

a lot of these police shootings, the police violence, the stop and frisk, the displacement and denigration of black communities within cities is happening in liberal cities. It's happening in cities that are controlled by Democrats. To just say, and part of why I get frustrated, I think, I'm as partisan as anyone, but part of why I get frustrated when we try to map a conversation like this on to partisanship, is it then excuses half the equation, half the country from its complicity? I don't wanna do.

I mean, I want to be clear on that. There's responsibility across, I mean, it's not, but the rhetoric certainly from one party is very different than the rhetoric from the other party. I mean, it is. And it was Bill Clinton who passed the crime bill that led to the over-incarceration of black folks. So, you know, it's, and by the way, and by the way, it still fucking defends that law.

And establishment Democrats who still defend that law. So, you know, again, it's tough. It's tough. It is just everybody's blowing it. Well, and everybody's pointing the finger. And I guess my sort of thing is like, start by pointing the finger at yourself. I think that's a good policy. Are we calling this white people talking? Yeah, definitely. This is like white people opine well actually I want to talk about Twitter We got really let's talk about twitchy So you have you have quite a few followers, but you've got now I do okay, but I got quite a collection of trolls Hello, I was just before the show that that you because you were kind of this this you're on Fox news

But your your views run a little counter perhaps let's just yes in the nice way that you because you were kind of this this you're on Fox news, but your your views run a little counter perhaps let's just Yes, in the nice way that you can't earlier No, you just some of the people on Fox without you You've collected like a lot of your followers or people who are there specifically and I started out at Fox As Twitter was ascending so and and and for some reason they stick around. Yeah, you know You're dedicated to dedicate loyal trolls. Yeah, so. Yeah, so you get trolled a lot. I get trolled. I mean, I have people who said,

my trolls are the worst at, you know. People who? I don't want to brag. Anybody have note? I don't want to brag. Yes, people have note who have, can't name names. But people have. People in the industry, a bit like that.

I've had, oh, yeah. Oh, no, no, people have had celebrities. I need to read your mentions. So, celebrities and journalists, people have had celebrities. I need to read your mentions. Celebrities and journalists. Can we get regular journalists? Pull up some mentions, some Sally mentions, just to see it get a taste. And I've had people ask me not to retweet them.

I think again, because of my trolls. Yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's powerful. And like prominent like liberal journalists. I go, I went up to Twitter and. I go I went. Here we go. The first result is at Sally Cone. Throw yourself out of window.

Okay, but okay, but in fairness. Oh, that's not that bad. In fairness last night. But the first result. The last that I tweeted band guns. Yeah. Before I went to bed, well, I thought I was going to bed. And then I literally within moments

there were like kill yourself, drink bleach. Yeah. People were zooming in on my nose and talking about kikes and the Holocaust and Jews and whatever. It was like, also, by the way, I don't understand the weird cross section of gamer gate. I mean, I sort of understand it.

The gamer gators in the forechang, who are just like, I don't really think they even believe the shit that they're saying. But they're like, oh, this is a really good place to be. When you end up on a forechang channel, and all of a sudden you notice, I noticed a real surge of like neutrals. I'm like, where did they come from?

I'm like, I know that I know that. I know those Google 4chan and find out what they just said about me. You know, it is also, it is by the way, I mean, I don't wanna make light of it, it sucks. No, it's the worst. It, you know, really, I mean, I've gotten sort of immune or it used to it or whatever at this point.

All right. But it is worth noting that across the board, across the board ideologically, the way that women, people of color and queer folks get trolled and Jews get trolled is just different. No, it's crazy. You know, when guys will get called stupid, you know, straight white Christian men will get called stupid or idiots or told to go drink bleach or whatever. But, you know, straight white Christian men will get called stupid or idiots or told to go drink bleach or whatever. But you know, you'll get anti-Semitic tweets. I'll get, you know, rape threats or things about, you know, carpet munching or, you know, I mean, like a lot of... I mean, you get always seconded. You're always seconded.

It's always, it's, yeah, the sort of the, you know, or my black queer friends will get, you know, racist misogynist. It's just... Oh, noogyn, it's just, it's unfortunate. Can we just call each other stupid? Oh yeah, you can't just say, yeah. Look, there were people who responded to me last night who were like, no idiot, it's in the constitution. And it's like, okay, fair enough, you're arguing for like, you're having an argument about the thing.

But then there were people who were like, got immediately racist, or got immediately into death threats. And it's like, you're just proving my point. Yeah, I don't want you to have a gun. Like, I don't want people like this to make hair trigger decisions, but Twitter is like. Well, it kills me as like a file talk about, you know, abortion rights.

Yeah. Like, you know, it should be, alone is our shoes and blah blah blah. And then I get, I get about a third and a third and a third of, well, why should you care about abortion clearly? You'll never need one. You drink blah, blah, blah.

Then I get rape threats, which is, it's like, did you guys talk? I was sort of flipping the script. And then the third, you're, I wish your mother had aborted you. I'm like, why am I confused? Yeah, so what do you think I thought all life is precious? actually your i wish your mother had a board of you i'm confused i thought all life is precious well it's like that it's like that i want everyone to have a gun it every

ever one had a gun everything would work out a guy had a gun he got shot from having a gun and they're like well he was black so but but but it's not forget california repealed open carry laws because the black panthers right like it's just yeah you know i mean the double standards are insane but but the um... we're talking about twitter well so i i mean i thought of i mean i wrote something uh... not the longer

for the new yorker which is about essentially the death of twitter was what was your humble break uh... little humble brad was it for the hot for the website for the website not the magazine i haven't done either, dude. Okay, well, maybe someday, maybe someday, you'll get your chance. You know, if you're really,

Got you want to hear this, what's your answer on your business? I think you really keep working at it. One of these days, you'll get tapped on the shoulder. No, but I was like, I was basically like, here's what Twitter is dying to me. And a big part of it was like the trolling. And it is this weird thing where,

I mean, listen, I get it, it's the internet. But you feel like, I mean, I was reporting and blocking people last night and the process is so arcane. And then, they're like, someone will be in contact about this. It's like, you know what? I'm verified, you know how many followers I have? I'm pretty easy, you can go search

what's going on in my timeline. Just go take a look and then use your brain, Twitter moderators, to figure out which people are contributing positively to a conversation. If you, if you've tweeted rape, upwards of 10 times within the hour, it should flag something. Yeah, right, right. You know, you would think, but we don't want to. The platform doesn't, I mean, let's be honest, Twitter doesn't actually seem to be deeply interested in performing its platform, but, you know, so I mean, there's the things that they could do if they wanted to stop this shit.

At the same time, by the way, I now get like trolls on Instagram, which is like, I get trolls on pictures of my dog. No, my Facebook. There was the best thread we're like, I can't remember what I did, but I said something, whatever. And then all of a sudden, the Donald Trump trolls came out.

Oh my God. And so I got Maga, you know, like Hashtag, M-A-G-A. That's the thing. You know, make America great again. Oh, like I posted a picture of my dog. It was Hashtag, Maga, Maga, Maga, Maga, Maga, Maga, Maga. And then, you know, something like you're a fucking idiot, but your dog is cute.

Oh, that's really nice. Thanks. That's so sweet. Thanks. Yeah, Instagram is the Wild West. So is Facebook though. Like Facebook, it's like, okay, they've done a little bit of a better job.

I may be because the comments are so totally diminished. It's like proper placement for that type of the stacking comments. It's like, okay, you're down here. If you really wanna go see it, you can go check it out, but like you don't have to. Twitter, it's like that is your secondary, your second, your feed is like the stuff you read

and the people you follow and the people you trust and are interested in. And then all the people responding to you. And like they have their filters, but their filters are bullshit. But I do think it's interesting. Like the thing is we can't quit because we're like in the new,

like we're doing new stuff. And like if you leave Twitter right now. I liked what I loved about Twitter was the back and forth, right? Like I just had this morning, some guy posted it, don't find it. Some guy posted something like, you know, you you cowardly twat. Why aren't you responding to my, you know, question? I'm like, maybe don't call me a twat. I don't know. I would be right like, I would love, I would love. I actually relish and one of the things I miss the most about Fox is, like, it's actually,

I do enjoy engaging with people I don't agree with. Yeah. I would like us to be able to do that respectfully. My I have to say, the thing that's so crazy, it's not crazy, I understand it. I think we would have shaken this off at this point. You know, I've been on the internet a long time, Humblebreg. I've been on a long, long time.

I built the internet and I designed it and built it myself. You would think that we got over this like anonymous, this like crazy, not even anonymous. Now it's like the people put their names on it, but like the ability to instantly react violently to somebody, and I mean words as violence, right? We think we would have kind of shaken it off a little bit, now we're like, okay, well,

you wouldn't, this is a forum where humans exist. Like it's not like we're in some alien, we're in some video game, like this is not a video game, like you're not a character in a video game, you're a human. You're a real human being. And those people you think at this point, we would have gotten into this place where we're like,

okay, well let's try to keep the discourse where in a room no one's gonna call you, very few people are gonna be like, you twat in a room. You just want to repeat that, didn't you? I did. It might have been twit by the way going back. I don't know, I might be conflating two different.

I might be conflating two different hate tweets. I'm sure there's plenty of both, okay? I mean, Ryan find finances as far. Let's not let. You have to say it again. You can stop now. Listen, I really, I do hold out hope that we can be a more civil and kind and polite people. And you know, the backlash against political correctness, I find so deeply troubling

because, you know, I always just thought political correctness was treating people with respect and kindness. And if something hurts someone's feeling or is offensive, even if you, it's not offensive to you, that's, you know, I mean, I learned this shit and couples counseling. But my partner says it hurt her feelings. I said, I'm sorry, I don't do it again. If your point is good, you don't need to call someone

a bitch if your point is good. Listen, right? But there has to be limits. At this safe space, this situation is going on. Listen, say what I have to say. Let's keep doing it. I'm not saying, listen, say what I can't, let's keep it in. Let's keep it in. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no it in, man, all things can go to the far end. We just have to communicate, just to look. Pendulum swing, pendulum swing, but the idea at the core of like,

let's treat people respectfully and language and the way we talk to and about each other is a place to begin and it's not giving something up of yourself. So yes, you're right, the policing of language and the pleas for safe spaces and whatever and trigger warnings can go too far. With the essential ideas. In the extreme. The essential ideas is good.

And what the fuck are you sacrificing? If I say, please call me this instead of that. No, here's the thing. What, let's skin off. Exactly. And I think that you have to go way out into the extremes to get to the place where it's like, okay now, hold on a second.

Because we are so far from getting it right at this point. We're so far from getting language right with each other that we need to go way out from where we are before we can start getting into, okay, well, there is. And wouldn't it be nice if we could have political disagreements, even in our intense partisanship, while still fundamentally respecting each other, not thinking that, well, the people on that side

are stupid and the people on that side are mean and the people on that side are stupid and the people on that side are mean and the people on that side are, you know, this, like how about we all aspire to be good people who want the best for ourselves, our families, our country and our world. Let's start with that as a fundamental assumption and have, you know, I don't know, respectful conversations, apparently I'm polyena over here.

No, I agree with you. I was gonna say like, that sounds like a wonderful dream, I think we're way. Just not on Twitter, maybe. Anyway. Not on Twitter, okay, well that's where I think we're gonna wrap it there. With my controversial safe space statement,

Ryan gave me the look, like the craziest look he's ever given me. He gave me some crazy looks. Yeah, I was so cute, actually, I talked that one. He was like, like, like, gay bar from my cold dead safe hair. Wow. Wow. Alright, well, Sally, thank you so much for doing this.

This is awesome. You have to come back. Maybe next time, we can talk about less unpleasant things. Maybe the world will be- Could the world stop producing unpleasant things? I think that's exactly your hair. It's going to be like nothing but sunshine and rainbows. Oh yeah, that sounds nice. Where's that place? I don't know. Well that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow of course.

And as always I wish you and your family the very best. Though I've just learned that in this economic experiment, your family has $2, and they're not going to be in last place, if they can help it. you