Tomorrow - Episode 64: The Outline of Josh

Episode Date: August 2, 2016

As you might have heard, Josh has some news for us about his latest project, The Outline. Which is cool and probably going to change the worlds of publishing and news media... but before we get to that, he lets Ryan distract him with talk about P90X, Donald Trump, bagels, and cross-dressing French princes. Josh is really excited to share his new vision with you listeners but apparently Ryan really needs to talk about HitClips and complain about his father's Instagram presence – so we're just gonna get that out of the way. To hear about the current state of Josh's life's work check out episode 64. But first: Did you know Ryan had Splenda ice cream for breakfast? It was gross! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow, I'm your host Josh Wattipolsky. Today in the podcast we discuss Shade, David Duke, and welcome to tomorrow. I'm your host, Josh Watsbulski. Today in the podcast, we discuss Shade, David Duke, and Splenda. But first, here's a word from our sponsors. Imagine if you could order an extra bedroom for guests that you could remove after they leave. That's the idea behind Lenovo's next-generation data centers built for cloud computing. You'll have the ability to expand and contract service based on demand without actually adding more hardware. Lenovo servers are number one in reliability and performance

because you don't have time for downtime. You don't have time for uptime. You're a very busy person. And Lenovo server systems allow you to partner with leading software providers to ensure your cloud solution is best in class. Learn more about how Lenovo is transforming the data center at www.Lenovo.com slash data center.

Tomorrow is supported by city cards with Android Pay. Listen on your phone. Now you can pay while you listen using the same device. Just tap and go. Download the Android Pay app on Google Play or visit city.com slash Android Pay to get started. Android Pay is available for eligible city consumer credit cards and debit cards. My guest today is my producer, Ryan Hullahan, and the reason I thought it'd be good and

fun for us to talk is that it's a fairly unusual day. Well, you're going to hear this on Tuesday, but this is Monday, we're recording. And why it's a really big news today. One of my talents is being able to talk about other people's news. He loves talking about my news. And actually some of the my coworkers at my new business, because that's the big news, are sitting in the control room.

We've got an in-studio audience. Yeah, John Ligamarsino, Billy Disney, and Jordan Oplinger are all watching, they're watching me with their cool dead eyes like the animals that they are. They don't understand this, they have to learn. They don't know what it's like to be watching me in a podcast booth. It's muscle memory.

Yeah, learn by doing. Anyhow, so we're gonna talk a little bit about the outline. The outline. And independent media. Can I pause for a second? This is strange. What is it, weird having me on your show to talk about you?

Does it feel like you're hallucinating right now? Is everything topsy-turvy? I don't know why I did it, but I took acid earlier in the day. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but now as usual, didn't really work out that way. I take 60 hits to acid every morning. 60 hits. Do you have your done acid? No, I just don't really work out that way. I take 60 hits of acid every morning. 60 hits. Do you have you ever done acid?

No, I just don't I don't throw that out there. Who would be upset with you if they heard you did acid? Probably my dad. Really? Yeah. You know what he said to me? He called me on the phone the other day and he said to me he just got Instagram and he posts under his dog's name But he loves it and he said to me. I was like, I was just a dog's name. Jackson. Yeah. He was looking at me and he said, maybe you're cool and I'm being so gay and like for women

and like such a Democrat, like people aren't gonna wanna hire you. And I said, that's how I got. I'm not gonna hire you. My job's for you. I wouldn't wanna hire you if you were any other way. Exactly. That's crazy.

It is. You're dad, like you're Republican? No, my dad's new thing is that he's not gonna vote. That's crazy. It is. Is your dad like a Republican? No. My dad's new thing is that he's not going to vote. That's how he sucks the system. Well, you should tell him that's fucking stupid. I am and and and he am not voting helps Trump win. Absolutely. Great. He doesn't like Trump and he doesn't like Hillary Clinton. No, I know. I know everybody doesn't like it. No, everybody's it's all sex. Look, I've come I've come to accept that I accept that. I'm looking at Hillary Clinton's offenses, which are all made up by the Republicans for the most part.

I mean, you know, she's not perfect. No, you know. She's perfect. You know who's really not perfect? Donald Trump. Like, he is the least perfect person that has ever been created. And it's like, I'm sorry, I get it.

We have two choices you don't like, but you're definitely being sexist. But if you're like, I'm sorry, I get it. We have two choices you don't like, but you're definitely being sexist. But if you're like, I'm sitting it out, it's like really, you're gonna let Trump be president. But the idea that you're gonna use of, first of all, a right that people, like millions of people have died to give you, you're gonna use that, you're gonna take that

and be like, I'm gonna throw a tantrum, tantrum tantrum with this. And pull the whole country apart. I mean, that wasn't what I was talking about, but it does tie in very specific things. That's what it kind of. Well, how fucking crazy is it when he was like, she wasn't allowed to speak, and I'm not saying that,

but a lot of people have written that. Like, he loves couching things. He's a fucking pathological liar. I was like, can we get real about Trump? He lies. He lies. I mean, it's not just like, this is what's so insane. I mean, everyone is insane in this country. I feel like the millennia nude photos campaign

ender for any other politician campaign. How was Dean made a weird sound and end this? That was it. He screamed too loud at a rally and it was over for Howard Dean. That was the topic of the week. It's crazy. Sorry. Donald Trump is such a broken person. He cannot, he doesn't even know how to be honest. But he was like, oh, you know, this thing about the debates.

It's like, oh, the NFL sent us a letter. It's like, the NFL's like, we didn't send you a letter. Yeah. And he spoke to people like, well, he heard from an inside source. It's like, okay, he specifically didn't send you a letter. Yeah. And he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, day when he's like, he's like, yeah, just to rape somebody and people are like, his poll numbers go up. Because he is reality TV, it's just about attention.

You know, but there's something he's used car salesmen. How can we let, how can we listen? Honestly, how could it have gotten to this point? I think, how did it get to you? We have to look at, I think. What can the outline do to help? Actually, I was just about to say, I think, the question, I think. What can the outline do to help? Actually, I was just about to say, I think. Great question.

I think as the media, like as a whole, it's by nature built, talk about what is happening today. And if every day you have a worse scandal, nobody's talking about Trump University or Melania's copied speech or what he said about the con family because every day there's something bigger and louder. So overwhelming.

I think it's just so overwhelming that we're checking out, you know? And honestly, I think the media, I'm hit, I'm hit, it's the media. I hate that term, by the way. The media. The media. It's so loaded.

It's also not real. When he says the liberal media keeps reporting unfairly, it's like, or they're just doing their job in reality, isn't totally. Yeah, like CNN hired your campaign. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, no, I mean CNN is, there are some good journalists on CNN.

Absolutely. My good buddy, Brian Steltler. Sally Cohn was just here. Sally Cohn, she's great. Wolf Blitzer, of course, one of the best. But Jake Tapper, okay. But that business is built to like keep a certain kind of customer From changing the channel. Yeah, like that is really what they're trying to do, you know

They're trying to get or they're trying to now trying to get like a viral moment on YouTube That is like those are essentially that the The compass points on their long walk through life, okay? It's like how do we get somebody to not change the channel? Or how do we get a viral video on YouTube? At this point, they're just bouncing between those two poles. And so, it's like, this business is built to shortchange

and conflate and to drum up and to hype up and to basically bullshit through what should be meaningful in important news, you know? Like, I'll give'll give CNN this, they have enough cameras and enough places they can do breaking news pretty well. There's like a hurricane or there's a war, there's whatever is going on. But when it comes to analytical, well-thought-out, meaningful depiction of what's really going on in the news. That's not their job. Their job, somebody wrote this article I commented on.

I think it was in the Atlantic. And it was like, here's how the media can force Donald Trump to release his tax return. That was another thing. What was his tax return? That is lame. I'm sorry. You're a blue collar worker in Middle America and you hear Donald Trump won't release his tax returns.

What is your reaction to that? Is it, is it, yeah, live free or die? Nobody else is business. But really is it because don't you feel like, because if Hillary Clinton didn't do it, it would be like what's she hiding? She's a liar. So don't you feel like Donald Trump has something to hide

in his tax terms? It's time to rush. I his time for Russia for bringing total I mean ties to Russia Maybe it might just be that he's that he gave $15,000 total in the last 10 years and that's a high estimate to charity Well, I can't confirm or deny that but what I know of Donald Trump is he's one of the most charitable people Believe me. You've spent huge donations. I love it. I can Democrat. I can Democrat with huge. Yeah. They're like, that's like they're all over.

I got a dog with a bone. No, it's crazy. It's Donald. Tim Cain does a legitimately doing like a Saturday night live impression of Donald Trump on stage, the DNC. I mean, but like compared to what he's doing, that seems like very relevant political discourse that like, are you kidding me?

We literally had a moment in a Republican debate where they were taking my Donald Trump's dick size. I mean, he was like, his hands were very big and so was everything else. Or something like that, like whatever it was. He was like, he was a small onion. She said, we have to have the courage of our convictions. Ask, yeah, I was right.

For his score in seven dicks ago. Oh, whoa. Did you just come up with that? Is that original material right now? Yeah, that just is off the hip. She knocked the hip. Very good. That improv stuff is paying off.

All that money. So anyhow, so your dad is like stop being so gay on Instagram. And so is the point of women. Yeah, he also was the person who said like you really shouldn't wear nail polish. And I said, you're a hair metal super fit. You can't tell me. Yeah. How old is your dad? My dad is just turned 50. You dad so young. Yeah. You dad nearly pretty close in age. Oh,

really? Well, no, not really. How old are you in the middle? I'm 27. We're also pretty close in age. Yeah. In fact, I'm writing between your dad and you. And if you're at home, do the averages and find out Josh's secret age. It's not secret. And write that in and you'll get a new prize from a whole family. I used to have a Hollywood age, but it's once

what competitive showed up. No good. You and Margot Robbie. Margot Robbie is, she's my age. What does she say she is? She says she's, she says she's my age, but people think she's 30 something. Wait, people think she's older.

Yes. Is that cool now? I don't know. Is being older cool? I think, I don't know anybody. That's my age. That's the only cool guy in the world. I don't know anybody.

Yeah, I don't know if I'm an actor. What is up with being older? Is that hip? Is that what the kids are in to now? If you think it's cool, I don't say it. Margot Robbie's lying about her age. That's the theory. She's lying up.

She's lying down. No, she's saying she's, she's saying she's 27 and people think she's 37. Wait, how old? What? I mean, there's a 37. There's a 37. Celebrities where this is especially.

She's not 37. That's what people think. What people? I don't know. You can't be like, you have to know who I'm hearing. I'm hearing, I don't know. No, there's pieces that have been published on Dutch.

She couldn't, she wasn't allowed to talk. I'm not saying it, but you're trumping right now. Bobby, you know, Bobby Fingers, Bobby Fingers conspiracy theory for like a year was that she was secretly an old. But that's the theory with a few females who else who else, who else, Beyonce. Beyonce is not that young. People think that she's a few years older than she's.

How old is she? She's 31 or 32. No, shut up, really. She's younger than Britney Spears. Oh, she's very young. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. Well, people think that she's way older than her.

That's why people think she's so old. And now he's really old. He's so old. I know he's really old He's like 50. I know that's crazy, but you know, it's great It's shocking that is shocking to me in the age of I mean how dare he cheat on her I mean 50-year-old guy walk I remember I was he think he's gonna get beautiful women like Beyonce all of us It's working for Donald Trump Is it really comparing Jay-Z and Donald Trump and And it was that they've had the same amount of success that the music was waiting.

Are you equating Melania with Beyoncé? No. Because that's a fun thing. That's not what I'm doing. I think a lot of people are gonna hear this and be out right now. That's not what I'm saying. I get to tell you I'm shocked.

Listen, if you want to have the press work by the right here, it's a dodge a boomba now. This is CNN, this is viral. That's your sound bite. This is the Owl Heavily I have a Wikipedia page didn't before. Ryan Hulland shocking, racially charged. racially charged. That's a phrase I'd like to wipe out from the books.

I want to stop straight people saying the shade. Racially. What? Straight people should and say shade. It's not good. Give me that innocent. Ryan Hulland threw shade at Beyoncé. I think that's not what that means. I think it's just one cool people should say. I shouldn't say

shade. God, it's a kind of tongue twister. We'll edit that part out. She throws shade by the ocean. I think young people shouldn't say shade. I don't, I just, that's not what that means. That's not what that means. Like shade does not mean. What does it mean? Shade is when. Please share. This is a quote from Paris's burning. Shade is not when I tell you you're ugly.

Shade is when I don't tell you you're ugly, but we both know you're ugly. I think that I get that. But people think it's like. Is it not just throwing shade like doing that exactly? Throwing shade is when I read the Franklin when asked about Taylor Swift's talents,

she's got beautiful gowns, beautiful gowns. Okay, so I'm confused. Oh, I see what you're saying. So when people say throwing shade, they think they mean insults, but that's not what that's meant for 20 years, 30 years. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Shade is like, is like quietly dishing slashing,

ignoring someone. Yeah, like not actually insulting them. Yes, but the insult is delivered. It's delivered through the lack of interest or knowledge about that person. Like if someone said, what do you think of Monia Trump's speech? And I said, she's a great model.

Mm-hmm, that is shade. That's shade. That is very much shade. Okay, so anyhow, how do we get on the topic of throwing shade? I don't know. That's just where my mind goes. So anyhow, you were out drinking last night. I was out drinking a whole minute.

You were a terrible hangover. You mentioned that already. You had an ice cream for breakfast. Now, what was the occasion? Why were you drinking? I was... It's the hard-hitting stuff you can expect on the outlet. Why was Ryan Hula-Han drinking? Go was... It's the hard-hitting stuff you can expect on the outlet.

Why was Ryan Hula-Han drinking? Go to the outline.com now and enter your email address. Go to the outline.com, put your email address in the email box, hit submit. I was at a birthday party that was a murder mystery birthday party. Oh yeah, a murder mystery. An open bar for four hours. So, okay, so you were a character. I was a character.

What was the character? I was the Prince, okay, so you were a character. I was a character. What was the character? I was the Prince of France, who was secretly a woman. A princess? Yes, technically a princess. Okay. What a strange situation. What era was this set in? This was Elizabethan times.

Huh. What was the purpose of the hiding? The purpose of the hiding was that there was no other air to the throne and we would have lost the family fortune. Was this chosen by you? Was it given to you? Given to. Random.

At random. Really? Yes. Interesting. That's great. I got to wear a crown for the whole night, which was the thrill of my life. We had a, at one point, we bought these, we bought murder mystery games that they had 45 records that came with them.

Oh, okay. You know, like sets the scene, yeah, I know. I know it's fun to play. Yes, I do. It's a type of record, it's mine. Yeah, I know what it is. And it's like a mini-disk. I sound really old, it's like a sonny mini-disk.

I'm like, you're familiar with Tony Bennett. You know what, a hit clip. What? Hit clip. There are these clips and you put them in a machine and they'd play 30 seconds of a song. I have no idea what you're doing. You know what a hit clip is?

Where's a hit clip? All right, there was a machine in like 1998. You'd get these little, they look like 3DS games, like little cartridges, and you could clip them wherever you want. Where's the 3DS? Just kidding. And you plug it into the machine, it would play 30 seconds.

What's the machine? What is the machine? Like a little speaker, like a mini CD player, and you always have that. Does anybody know what he's talking about in there? You do. John, can you come up, please?

Can you talk about it? Please, you can only want to exist in some of it here. I'm going to show you a picture of headclip. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you ever hit clips? Yes, yes. Yes, yes. So that was the 45.

All right, well on that note, I think we should take a quick break. And here are words from our sponsors. And then we'll be back with more of whatever this conversation is that I'm not really don't understand at this point. I'm sort of confused about it, but I'm enjoying it. And that's important. Tomorrow is supported by CityCards with Android Pay. How cool is it that we live in a world where you can use the same device to listen to

tomorrow and buy your morning coffee, groceries, and more? And did I mention it's a super fast way to pay? Just use your city card with Android Pay at the register. Get in, get it, get going. Download the Android Pay app on Google Play or visit city.com slash Android Pay to get started. Android Pay is available for eligible city consumer credit and debit cards. This week's episode of Tomorrow with Josh Wattopolsky, that's me, is brought to you by Earth

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sync important documents into cloud storage, deposit checks, and you really just make running your business a whole lot easier. You also get a real professional address to share publicly with customers, business partners, and investors. And you'll never need to worry about someone showing up at your front door if you run your business from home.

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Yeah, okay. That's fine. We can talk about it. So you're really... I can't just say that, you know, it's... I'm excited about it. I mean, it's like static to be talking about. I'm ecstatic to not be hiding it.

Because I've been like hiding it. Which I don't know why maybe that wasn't the right thing to do. I don't really know, but it feels like... You can't have telling me about it. You'd be like, I can't really say, but here's what it is. Why do you feel like... I feel like, you know, until you're ready to do. I don't really know, but it feels like you can't have telling me about it. I can't really say, but here's what it is. I feel like you know, until you're ready to do something, you shouldn't. I agree 100. You shouldn't talk about it. And I wrote this thing on Medium a few months ago, and it was, it like people really responded to, but and that was like part of it was out of like sort of this thinking that I've

been doing and frustration of what our industry has been doing, like the media news media industry. And, but I always feel weird. I feel like it's, I feel like it's an amateur move. To talk about a lot about what you're doing, to not just do it. I think that, I remember even when we were doing verge stuff, we would go to meetings and the CEO, Jim Bankoff and my partner, Marty Mo,

who were great guys, but were much better at talking about us than I was, like much better at kind of like boasting because that was sort of their job. And I always was like, well, let's just do it. Let's just not, you know, I don't want to, does I do kind of feel like, and maybe that's a Pittsburgh thing. No, you lose Mojo when you talk about stuff.

Like as a creative, that's fine. So we should just end this right now. Right now. I'm just gonna shut it down. Well, no, now you have a real business. You can talk about what you're doing. I don't know, you know what, here today gone tomorrow. Look at the great depression.

You're comparing your new media into the great depression. No. No. Melania Trump and Beyonce, Is that what you're doing? No, I didn't. None of those were brought up in context of this. Okay, no, I'm just saying. I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying,

I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying,

I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, Uh-huh. And he's gonna pay for that. He's gonna pay for that. I'll tell you he's gonna pay for it. Mexico. Why? They're gonna pay and if they don't like it, I'll put another foot on that wall.

When you hear something you don't like, you retaliate with petulence. So your new venture is your selling encyclopedia's door to door. No. Actually, it is a component of the new business. No, where is that name come from? Well, it's funny how names work. I, when we were doing the verge,

I got this name, the verge, in my head very early on, and then we spent a long time talking about other names. I really wasn't that telling the story of the outline, but that's okay, it's all gonna come back. It comes back around. It's like, this is like lost, this episode's gonna be like lost. That one was, it came up gonna come back. It comes back around. It's like, this is like lost. The set-up was gonna be like lost. That one was, it came up,

I was having a conversation with friends of mine, the owners of Code and Theory. It sounds like Code and Theory, which is an amazing digital agency here in New York. And I don't know, we were batting around names and I just, I think I just thought of that out of the blue. You know, I think one of a lot of people hear the word outline, they're like, murder. Ch word outline. They're like murder.

Chalk outline. Yeah, chalk. That's interesting. That's really interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way. Anyhow, but the outline, the people think of it as like, oh, I'm writing a paper, I need to do an outline, which is a popular way to think of it.

But the more I thought about how it relates to what I hope to do or want to do with this business, this, you know, or A media business, you know, I think it's interesting to think about outlines in the realm of illustration and that they are, you know, the outlines of the defining strokes of an image, like really that is, that tells like a very clear idea of what that thing will be without being colored and without being exaggerated or embellished. I think there's something interesting about the idea of figuring out how to draw the outlines, the clear lines around an idea or a topic.

But also, you know, it just sounds cool. But we're talking around it a little bit. So the new venture is a publication and the media company. Oh, we should say. So the new venture is two things. It is a brand, a media brand news media brand called the outline, and which is where I'm focusing all my time and attention right now but that's part of a business called independent media. An independent media, the core concept is I'm interested in building a media

business that is decidedly outside of the kind of common or well-established system of media businesses. Which is click-horing, is that? Well, I mean, it's not just that. It's also, you know, what is the destiny for this business? Should it be part of Disney, you know, or should it be something that can thrive on its own?

And my goal is to create something that can thrive on its own, and that has its own voice and point of view and position. And hopefully, you know, the outline down the road will be joined by other kinds of storytelling vehicles, whatever those may be. It's interesting because it's like, you're proposing something that which is entirely radical for the internet, but probably shouldn't be, which is like the New Yorker exists,

or existed as a magazine for a really long time. And like people were like, okay, this is for a specific group of people and it can still thrive. And I feel like because of the way like advertising structures on the internet are, people are like, well, you know, you can't buzz feeds. Like you can't sustain news,

or you can't sustain like actual thought, or any of that with the unless you're quizzing people on what Harry Potter child they are. Right, well that is a problem. I mean, there is just like, actually, there's a big part of this. And by the way, I feel like everybody

who listens to this podcast probably heard me talk about this a bunch. And also it now occurs to me that I feel like it's weird that I'm just talking about myself on this podcast. And I know I do that anyhow inadvertently. At least, yeah, today we're being honest about it. Wow, okay. No, no.

That's fucked up, man. No, but like there is, I mean, there does seem to be this kind of like desperation to a lot of like what is out in the world. And I'm not, by the way, I'm not knocking. There's stuff that's really good. Like there is fun, not important stuff that's really good, and it's just pleasurable to read or watch or whatever.

I just think, and for me honestly, it was kind of like, I've spent a long time waking up and just going like, wish there was something, like I just wish there was something to look at, to read, to see that was gonna be like interesting to me. Yeah. I mean, there's like a kind of selfish reason for doing this, which is I want there to be something better and more interesting, and that's part

of what is driving it. But also, I just think that the media industry's really weird and doesn't, is broken. And well, at the moment, it's like Coca-Cola is the only drink on the menu for everybody. And I like Coca-Cola and it's not knocking it to say, it's not a breakfast drink. Coca-Cola, a proud sponsor tomorrow.

No, yeah, I mean, it's like, look, there are pockets of great, I mean, there are people doing great stuff all over the place, but I do think that, like kind of foundationally and fundamentally, I think that what I would like to do with this business and with the outline is question, you know, are what we think of as the way to do it. Because I do feel like we've built a system

on pretty old concepts. Like, we've built, even though most modern media businesses are really built on very legacy ideas, like how you structure a newsroom, how you work with advertisers, what you think an audience potential is, what you think revenue potential is, like how you gauge those things,

like how you judge who your audience is and how many of those people should be paying attention. And I do think it's kind of, I think the Yahoo AOL Verizon merger or whatever it is, is like the best expression of the thing that I don't that I don't want in my life. I think I'm doing that since like AOL time Warner, like all of these companies have been trying to be like,

this is gonna work for 25 years. Yeah, well, I presumably there are some parts with the work, I don't just don't know, I don't care about them. And I think this is actually kind of like really core, like this is, I mean, we have this tagline, which is it's not for everyone, it's for you. And I think this is like really core to what I wanna do,

which is to say, I can't be effective, me personally and the people that I wanna work with, some of whom are here. I can't be effective for like a hundred million people. I think that it would be, whatever they want would be very boring to me and also I'm probably not gonna be that good to give in to them.

But also things aren't good if you try to shoot to be effective for 100 million people. Like Louis CK didn't start out saying, I'm going to be the funniest, I'm going to be the comedian that everyone goes to stadium to say. Do you know that? You don't know that. But I think I've heard him talk about it. He did comedy for 10, 15 years where he was doing very middle of the road.

And when he got very honest about his specific beliefs and his, like, his, what things that are specific to his life and that are deeper is when people connected. Yeah, but it's weird, it's like he also just like, didn't he recently go bankrupt or something? Oh, I think that's his horse and Pete with little teeth. Yeah, or I said Pete, like, totally destroyed him as an adult.

There was a little hubris in saying, I'll release my own television show to download and it's like, Well, he didn't want it to be tainted, I get it. Yeah, I know what it's like. I got it. I'm living that right now. like, well, you didn't want it to be tainted, I get it. Yeah, I know what it's like. I'm living that right now. You're obviously, you're trying,

you're shooting for more quality than your average website. And you're dropping, you're not gonna drop a thousand stories a day. No, because I do that kind of way. I wouldn't do that. I've done that kind of writing. I know, you're a content farmer.

You're a content farmer. You're a content farmer. I've been a content farmer in the content fields. And here's the thing, the incentive there is to post 15 times a day and make the headline as catch as possible. And 50 times a day. And actual per person.

Yeah, of course. Look, there's not a huge, I mean, my religion on this is simply I don't want to make shit. I don't want to fill the world with useless, repetitive, regurgitated garbage. I'm not saying that everybody else does, but a lot of people do. My time on this tiny blue dot is too precious

to spend making things that I don't care about and making things that I'm not interested in and making things that I don't care about and making things that I'm not interested in making things that I don't think other people will care about and so you know, it's like To me there is a certain kind of quality about doing this of If we just try to do something better and there are better things there are good things out there But if we just try to make something better and to do something better. And there are better things. There are good things out there. But if we just try to make something better and to do it, like really foe-blooded and without compromising or without, you know, with as little compromising as possible,

you always have to compromise here and there. And I mean, like in your values, I mean, you know, there are gonna be a hundred things that I want in the product on day one that I wanted to make that I couldn't get. Well, you promised in the Wall Street Journal that I would cure cancer. I did say that was sort of something we guarantee. Yeah. Which might have been a mistake.

I don't know when I look back on it. Was it a mistake? It's hard to say. But no, I mean, there's always some compromise about because like you want to be realistic. But I just think, I just think, I want to personally, this is what interests me, it's what's exciting, and it is where I think the largest of Vistas are in terms of what you can create. I do feel like there's an audience, a big audience, that doesn't, is like a little bit underfed in terms of, in terms of great storytelling.

And I look at something like the New Yorker, which is a brilliant publication and has brilliant writers. But I don't think the New Yorker is made for now. I don't think it's made for people who were born into this moment and have a- Do New Yorker feels like when you get an artisanal brand of jam and you're like, I'm so excited about this and you eat it, but you're not gonna buy it again. Like it gets into my apartment and sometimes I'm like,

I'm gonna read this cover to cover, but not every week. I'm like, I can't do this this week. I just gotta, like, it's like you get like a rhubarb molasses jam. And you're like, look at me. And he's got that little string around the top, you know? Yeah. And it's good.

And you're like, I love, do you really want it? Do you really want it? No, I know Jill. You really want it. Strawberry jelly. And you know what I would love? And that's what the outline is, really strawberry jelly. But if like the outline, I had that jam auto delivered

in a birch box. I do that. That's right there. That is actually our business model, jams in a birch box. That's a shame. That is actually our business model, jams in a birch box. We call it jam box. Is that taken? I hope not.

It is taken. Is that available? I have a Bluetooth speaker called the jam box. Never heard of it. Different space. We're in the media space. That's kind of a different situation. Anyhow, but no, I just, I do think it's like,

you're now selling jam through the sharper. You kind of breaks down. But I also don't think that we're rhubarb molasses. No, I don't, no, I know what you're saying. But what I'm saying is, people create, we're fucking seven grain toes. People create, that's what we are.

Ezekiel bread. Where is Ezekiel? No, come on, don't get out of that. Ezekiel, they've eaten the frozen bread, the bread is in the, I love the Ezekiel bread. Do you? I don't like anything with any,

I don't like any religious sounding. I don't like any religious sounding. I don't want, I'd the soap with all the religious stuff on it, Dr. Bronner. Yeah. You say no to kosher bagels. I don't want these bagels. Give me a non kosher bagel. I don't know if a non kosher bagel.

What is that? I don't know. Have you ever heard of them? I'm sure they're kosher. I don't know. Can you imagine a non kosher bagel? Oh, it's like those bags. Do they make a bagel for the anti-SMI-2 who are asking on Twitter?

I'm curious. What happens when those guys want a bagel? They go to crack her. They go to crack her. I'm like, can I just ask, are neo-nautis... Do they not eat a bagel because it's considered like a food of the Jews? No, they'd be taken back the night with my eating bagels. I think that's what neo-nazis do.

They don't take back the night. I think you're mixing. But honestly, like, I feel bad for these guys. David Duke, has he ever had a- Should be a bagel. Some locks. Fuck, come on. Come on.

That's the best. So who's on this team? Who's on your A team so far? A team, I like that. More like the O team. I think. That's actually what we're calling them. So, well, I already mentioned John, like I'm our C&L and Billy Disney and Jordan Oplinger who are sitting here.

Adrian Jeffries is a senior editor, Aaron Edwards, a senior editor from Buzzfeed. Adrian came to us from Motherboard Advice. Prior to that, she was at the verge. Old friend. Leah Finnegan, who is the managing news editor at Genius or was. I feel bad saying that, but she was like really smart and funny and you do not want to be in Leah's crosshairs. If you're on the internet.

And Yvavong, which sounds like a insane foreign name. He's our CTO, but he's actually from Oregon. Would it be a problem if you wasn't? Yes. Because of your walk. No, the business was the walk. The walk that I told you that it's going to be built. And Amanda Hale, who is our head of revenue,

she comes to us from Talking Points of Emma, which is a really, really good political website, which I think is considered to be left leaning. Yeah. Through my Josh Marshall, who's a thing. Anything that's sort of grounded in facts is perceived to be left leaning in this, the believes in science or reporting're reporting and denounced,

and denounced as Trump is seen as a hardcore left wing. Speaking of what's your voice that you're going for with this, are you gonna go for a snooty snarky liberal voice? No. Like, no, I was actually talking about, I was actually talking about the liberal Jew media. I was actually talking about what. I was actually talking to you earlier about the NPR.

I was listening to NPR a lot. I've been listening to NPR a lot lately. And that won't be the voice. I expect that relevant to you just telling you. You know, I've been watching a lot of family guy, but that's not the voice of my ass. I can tell you this. Family guy definitely will not be the voice.

Really? Definitely not. So you're going against the green on that one, Jordan, let's do that. Can I say something? But I fucking hate family, y'all. Okay, I'm just gonna put it out there. All right, do you like it?

I don't know what it is. It had a moment. I don't have a tip. No, it didn't. It had a moment. It did it in the early 2000s. It was like, random is funny. All right, so what's the voice of this publication?

I mean, I think I want the voice. I mean, what it, well, I certainly will sound a little bit of a monster. That's what voice of this publication. I mean, I think I want the voice, I mean, what it, well, I certainly will sound a little bit of a voice. Herman Monster. Oh, wow, okay. No, I'm just kidding. No, really, because it feels like a real burn. I think what's really important is that,

is that there, I think in one thing about news is that it is humorless. I think that is like a problem, right? We are... Well, you have the two ends of that. You have the Samantha B. And... Oh, no, of course.

You've got the New York Times. Total fat tire, and then you've got like the real news, you know? But like, what is it? I think when you say Gawker falls in somewhere closer to the middle. Gawker falls a little bit in the world. Like, we're obviously biased. But, but, but, one of the things that attracted me

to going to work at Bloomberg was business week and the voice that Josh Taryngell had kind of developed there, which I thought was, I mean, when I, when I went there, I mean, I had been talking about business week as, you know, when I was at the Virgin Vox, I'd always talked about it as one of these things to kind of like aspire to, or that was was like I felt like it was real competition. These guys are really kind of smart,

they're funny, they're picking weird topics, they're going after big subjects, you know, but they're doing it in a way that was very modern. I think that, not enough of that in media, I think when you look at something like a cnn i mean they may not i mean they may conflate and not really give you a good news story but they certainly won't they'll also do without any humor you know but are you looking at daily covering the daily minutia of campaigns or you know you're investigating pieces with a void well i mean i think i think that's like a fight i think that's your answer is neither of those things i mean i think what

it's like those sound like real extremes of I think the answer is neither of those things. I mean, I think what, it's like, those sound like real extremes of like, oh, the landscape that we know, but I think there's a way to, what I'm most interested in doing is saying, we have three areas of coverage that I've been thinking about and that I talk about, and I've talked about with the team, which is power, culture, and the future.

And I think those three things are actually converging in a really interesting way. I think Donald Trump is an incredible avatar. That is such a better cut down of stuff than tech, fashion, beauty. So power is like business and politics. Who has power, who wants power, what they do when they get it. Culture obviously covers a lot of things. I'm, you know, in for me, I'm most interested in,

but from like me, how we, how we, how we, how we, right, but I mean, internet culture's obviously a big part of it, but how we live with one another, how we love one another. Yeah. The arts, right, film, art, music. And, and then the future, what I think is interesting about this is that obviously like my background

is in technology reporting. And so it would be very easy to do tech coverage. But I think that's the wrong way to think of it. I think that there is this kind of bigger view of what is happening. I mean, I think actually, when we started the verge, there was still a story, a thread to cover about what the technology, the nuts and bolts of it really meant, like how it would impact, you know? And I think that we do go in these peaks and valleys in terms of innovation. And I think that we were at that point, you know, five years ago,

we were in a, there was the kind of rise, the peak of that. And I think we're in a valley right now, in that valley, we don't know how long and how deep that valley is. But I think that in terms of like the nuts and bolts stuff, that's less interesting to me. The phone you have in your pocket, the phone I have in my pocket, they may be different, but they're basically do the same thing. What's interesting now are these kind of like, these access tilting events that are happening. Like the kind of stuff that Elon Musk is talking about.

He doesn't just want to build a car. Yeah. He wants to change the way we live. Well, there's the paradigm shifting, like the idea that Uber changes the dynamic of, for example, comedy and LA. Like people can go to stand-up shows and drink at comedy shows because they can Uber home now.

And they couldn't do that before. Exactly. And that's a great story. And I'll be looking forward to reading about that on the outline. But that, the thing you just said, that kind of weird, I don't know, and that's a great story, and I'll be looking forward to reading about that on the outline. But the thing you just said, that kind of weird, I don't know, maybe that's the story that someone's written. I don't know. It's just a phenomenon that I know about.

Okay, so that's to me, so that what you just described is exactly almost exactly what I'm talking about. Like when I think about the things that I want to write about or think about or talk about. Because who cares about the speed of the processor in my phone? Or who cares about the fact that like, Uber is ubiquitous.

But like Pokemon Go is the story, not that I have a forced touch on my phone screen or not. Is Pokemon Go the story? I think AR is. Is it? Absolutely. You have people running through Central Park. Or is it what happens when AR is widespread?

Is it what happens when, you know, they find that, yeah, then you know, you end up, you end up finding a dead body while playing Pokemon. That was, it was that a fake story. That was real story. That was real. And it's happened several times. Well, it turns out that Pokemon's love hacking out of the door. And that's why you named it the outline. You know what? And scene. But, but the, but the thing that you said about Uber, I think, is really telling. The audience exists on the internet right now is a sophisticated, very different audience than one that existed five years ago.

They've been raised on the iPhone. They've been raised on BuzzFeed. That is not this novel thing to them. But their understanding in the world is very different and very mature in a lot of ways, but their world looks very different. And that's why like going back to that New Yorker analogy, I think it's brilliant, but I don't think it's built for the moment. As good as a lot of their digital stuff is too, it just is there are opportunities that we're not exploring, and that is something that I really want to do desperately with.

So, are you trying to avoid like Facebook-y sort of like instant articles and like, you know, Twitter clickbait headlines that get shared and retweeted a thousand times with a joke or? No. No, let's put some problem with that. Is there a problem with Facebook saying? No, actually, actually, the problem with that? Is there a problem with Facebook saying there are people? No, actually, the one thing, the journal article that they wrote about, that they kind of got, didn't quite get is, we're not like shunning social.

I think socials are a really powerful tool. I think that there is an incredible, like that audience I'm talking about, that it's the smarter, sort of more evolved audience is absolutely lives on social and a lot of different channels. But the question for us and for me is just like, what do you do there? Like what's the appropriate right way to speak to that audience versus like,

is that my printing press, you know? Is social the entirety of my existence or is it a one tool that exists in a set or sequence of tools that are really important and valuable if you're building something from scratch? And so that is the way I think if that ladder way is the way. Well, it's also the idea of the worst thing that I ever have experienced in any of these sort of newsrooms is the idea that every social channel gets the same message, and it's like we're going to come up with specific, slightly different voice to write a sentence about what this article we're linking to is.

And it's so annoying or the idea that we'll post the same video on Facebook that we post on YouTube and we'll link to that on Twitter and that's just our social strategy as opposed to giving me what I might want in this environment. I think that's, yeah, I think about, we do this piece, what is code at Bloomberg last year in 2015. And it's a 39,000 word, like, mass of article to the entire magazine, we did this huge digital thing. But like, if that story is presented in an instant article on Facebook,

I mean, do you think the best way to reach someone with that story is to give them 39,000 words in an instant article? Like that doesn't make sense to me, right? And so there has to be, you have to think about what is code. Now, you think about what is appropriate for that place, that time, that audience, that moment. And so, I think the question is, how do you build a better narrative

that it doesn't just work on your platform, which I'm very interested in, because the open web is the most powerful, most interesting tool that we've ever had to tell stories. And it is the one true platform that actually binds us together. But then, let then when, okay,

let's say you serve your purposes there, you do what you wanna do there as this kind of like primary stage. What do you do for Facebook? What do you do for Twitter? What do you do for Instagram? That isn't duplicative, that isn't the same, that isn't like, I shared this video in six different places.

How do you try to tell the right story for that audience at that moment? It's like, it's sort of like the shade room or those sort of places that make the most of a specific Yeah, the shade room is actually our first acquisition That'll become a part of the outline But it's like using the limitations of a specific thing Like what's funny with Instagram is that everyone's like link and buy out or whatever Like because they have to use the weird limitations set down by the Instagram.

That's just Instagram's inability to develop their product, I think. Or like on Twitter, when you link to something you have to know, you're going to get a bunch of anime outlines sending you Gore porn as your responses because Twitter's inability to filter out assholes is part of its network. No, but is it? I think I will say this Instagram is fascinating to me because it's become like almost a blogging platform. Like I follow Questlove.

Yeah. And he will just write like thousands of words. Amy Sagaris' Instagram is the most stunning display on Instagram. Blah, blah. Because she posts any random thing that she thinks is funny with no context. There's no explanation So you just get these weird pictures and you have to try to put together a picture of her day or what she's doing

based on see I think that's great. I think that um Platforms are wonderful because you know, there's this famous quote Which is attributed to William Gibson that I don't know if it's actually his quote or not Which is the street finder. Marilyn Rose said it Street the street finds its use this for things. And I do think that there is this quality, like the RT on Twitter. Yeah.

Didn't come from Twitter. Yeah. It was invented by users. And I love that shit. Like, I love the idea that, and this gets kind of back to the core of what I'm talking about with like how you think about, if I'm doing the outline and what are we to social, what is social to us. The like it is in the way that it is all about like the way that you use it.

Yeah, you can ride now with them like I get that. Yeah. And and that to me is less interesting than figuring out if you're here in this place this time and I have something that is worthwhile to like show you or share with you like, what less interesting than figuring out, if you're here in this place this time, and I have something that is worthwhile to show you or share with you, like, what is the mechanism? What is the function? Well, it's like, it's like, how do you siphon

how the brain works into specific tools and like a framework? And I think what you're talking about, and not to be too like, hmm, what you're talking about with your publication, is siphoning away that our brains work that people aren't doing, which is like- It's like an infomercial. This is like one of those like,

I think- Well, what I was told to do is do a hard sell for oxen. That's what I was saying, P90, P90 X or whatever the fuck it is. It's like, there's like a- But there's like a system that your system you've created is so effective at weight weight loss and fat burning That people can't be fat if they wanted to people I took P90 X and I ate everything that I wanted to and I could not

Wait, do you think P90 X is a food? Is that a thing? No, it's a good pill work. It's a work. It's workout system? I think it's a workout system. No, it's a real thing. I'm doing Jane Fonda moves in the booth. Is anybody know, can I get a fact check on this? P90X is what? It's like a workout system. I thought it was tape. I thought it was speed. It's like tapes. It just shows you how out of touch

I am with the info-mercial world. Or out of touch you are with physical fitness. I'm very out of touch with physical fitness. I guess I need that. My Apple Watch is requested request that I stand several times as I'm in this conversation. It's like starting to get desperate. It's like, please, please just stand.

P90X will work out or not? P90X is a workout. Is it really? It's almost like a speed. No, P90X, I'm sure they have products you can buy, but the idea is that you... Well, we were in a hotel in Detroit recently, AKA last weekend, last weekend.

And one of the channels was just an info-mercial channel for at workouts on the TV. And it was like the guy who invented P90X and there was this amazing clip of him where people were like working out of the beach and he just like jumped in and started doing and started doing the workout with the... Parkour! It was like, kind of like, I wait.

I've looked it up. P90X seems like a system of pulleys that you pull your body. P90X looks like an SNM, so to speak. This is why I eat ice cream for breakfast, because fuck. I kill for the ice cream right now. If people are interested in what you're launching, where can they go? Go to theoutline.com, put your email address in the signup form.

Okay. And then we're gonna send you information about what's happening. Infomercials. We're gonna send you a spam. You're getting a 90x infomercial. You're gonna get a letting letter. And some spam.

Yeah, you're gonna get old letting letters. What we're doing is we're part of our business that we take the old Lenny letters from like last year. I entered an interview with Tommy Gevinson from March 2014. Well, you remember when she was relevant? And we send it to you. Yikes, hot Tommy Gevinson takes. You didn't, you didn't, you didn't cotton

to her American Horror Story. That was gross. Oh, she did? Yeah, she did. Really? Yeah. Oh, she's great. Her and Gaga. Oh, she did? Yes, she did. Really? Yeah. Oh, she's great.

Her and Gaga. Oh, same season. Same season. No, that's intense. No, she's great. No, go to the outline and sign up. And we're going to do a bunch of stuff in the near future. We're now in like, whatever, right before you go out of stealth completely, you feel like

in that middle stealth, not stealth mode. That's where we are. So you're one of the bombers that Trump is readying for Mexico. We're ready to, we're ready to drop a bunch of atomic bombs. Whatever. A content, content to Tommy Combs. Content bombs.

Oh, and whoever is most deserving, whatever Mr. Trump tells us to do that So you weaponizing the lighting that's what we do. All right. Yep. Well, thank you for coming away. I showed it Well, thank you for coming on my show Distained pleasure that I can't wait to hear played back happy p90 x to all our P90 x not a sponsor by the way, I just want to be clear and no one here. No one has been using the P90X to all our listeners. P90X, not a sponsor, by the way, I just want to be clear. And no one here, no one, has been using the P90X system. Well, that, hey, look, it's been great.

It's been great. Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best. So your family is all hopped up on P90X and they may never come down. you