Tomorrow - Episode 66: Consulting With Aminatou Sow

Episode Date: August 16, 2016

Do you like smart, funny, driven women? Do you want to know the secrets of success? Do you want insight into one of the internet's most dynamic minds? Do you wonder about the markup on wooden toys? You probably answered a resounding yes to all those questions, which is why we at Tomorrow are proud to present episode 66. This episode finds our host Josh talking with the one and only Aminatou Sow – a podcaster, consultant, and media strategist of international renown. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow, I'm your host, Josh with Tupulski. Today on the podcast, we discuss boy stores, Martha Stewart, and Emotion. First, a word from our sponsor. Tomorrow is supported by city cards with Android Pay. Listen on your phone. Now you can pay while you listen using the same device. Just tap and go. Download the Android Pay app on Google Play or visit city.com slash Android Pay to get started. Android Pay is available for eligible city consumer

credit cards and debit cards. Imagine if you could order an extra bedroom for guests that you could remove after they leave. That's the idea behind Lenovo's next generation data centers built for cloud computing. He'll have the ability to expand and contract server space on demand without actually adding more hardware. Lenovo servers are number one in reliability and performance because you don't have time

for downtime. You're busy. You don't have time for that. You get to get to work, get to get moving. And Lenovo server systems like Department of Leading Software providers to ensure your cloud solution is best in class. Learn more about how Lenovo is transforming the data center at www.lenovo.com slash data center. My guest today is an amazing internet celebrity, one of the greatest people currently online.

She's the co-host of the Call Your Girlfriend podcast slash empire. I'm of course talking about Aminatu, so the most amazing, most fantastic podcast host next to me, after me, thank you for being here. Oh my God, that intro is so much. Let me tell you something. Can I just say something? I'm going to dox myself because I don't know about radical transparency.

Tell us. I fucked up the pronunciation of your name. Oh, like six times in a row, even though I was saying it perfect now like eight times in a row, even though I had nailed it perfectly in casual conversation like eight times in a row. Even though I had nailed it perfectly, in casual conversation, I was like, oh, yeah, that's how it's pronounced. It's really not that hard. What's that?

You know, that's why we don't call you one-take Josh. When the spotlight hits you, it's tough. Anyhow, thank you for being here. Hey, thanks for having me. No, but seriously, and the stuff about you being like a huge internet celebrity and having an empire is true because you're first off, you're very beloved. It's second on the internet generally.

At least everybody I know is like, oh my god, I love her. But secondly, your podcast that you have with Ann Friedman is like, whose name's not pronounced Ann Friedman as we discussed earlier. No, it is not. Oh my god. I was like, how's that pronounced? You can't say the black name, you can't say the white names. I'm like not good at names, women's names, mainly.

Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. But anyhow, that's become like a huge thing. So you had a podcast and now you've got like, you've like a shop, like an online store, you're selling stuff, you're doing live shows, next week in LA, you're doing a, wait,

this is gonna go up on Tuesday. When is your live thing? That'll be Thursday. Oh, so Thursday of the week that you're hearing this, if you're in LA, it's probably already sold out. No, you should definitely come. Go to callyourgirlfriend.com. Is that the website?

Yeah, that's the website. I sign up. And then some stuff on the shop, which I hear is a ton of great goods. I don't know, I just listed it at the episode where you're talking about the shop. So I haven't checked it out yet actually. It's a lot of work. It's it.

You don't seem too stressed. You seem to relax. I mean, I'm not stressed at all. I think it's just, you know, I got a lot going on right now. No, I know. That's why I want to talk to you. I know you're very nervous because we have no plan. I feel like I've put you in a zone

where anything can happen. Yeah, we have no plan. And I've listened to previous episodes of the show and I'm like, it goes off the rail so fast. Yeah, that really does. So I'm just trying to stay on track. So let's do this. So tell me, how do you get to call your girlfriend?

What have you been doing? Because I don't know if everybody knows your background, the stuff that you've been doing prior to it. You didn't have a podcast before a card your girlfriend did. No. So how did you arrive at, how did you end up with Ann doing that?

Like what was that? And what was happening before it? Anything that's worth talking about, you don't have to leave out all the bullshit. Ann and I are old friends, like we've been friends for like eight, nine years now. Is that old friends, I think so? In-in-, nine years now. Can you, is that old friends? I think so.

In internet age, like, you've been friends for like six months. You're like, oh, we're like, we go way back. We were friends before Peach started. So I feel like that's my favorite social network. Are you on Peach? Yeah. Do you use it? Not in the last two months now.

Any, all right. So your old friends are like friends in DC. You live in DC for two months now. Anyhow, all right. So, you're old friends and DC. We're like friends in DC. You live in DC for a long time. Yeah, it's like I graduated college, I studied political science, and like literally the only thing you're qualified to do with that is either be like a park ranger or just move to DC and like.

Is that true? You can take a park side degree and become a park ranger. I took a career test at the UT. I went to college at UT Austin, and I went into one of those career personality tests, and I was like, what am I doing with my life? Literally the first thing was like, you should be a park ranger. I was like, LOL, I hit the outdoors. Some ways I didn't.

Someone suggested that, or it came up in after a survey or something. It was like both. It was like it was one of those like I was like have you felt that park rager than you took a test? It was like one of those like comprehensive like who moved my cheese? What colors my parachute like plug in all this other stuff? And I was like, what is your parachute? God only knows. It's purple.

But yeah, so you know, it's like so but I so I moved to DC and I didn't like I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life It was right. I was I was the last college class where I graduated college in 2007 I was literally the last college class where like some people had jobs at graduation Because like this used to be a thing like junior year people would be like I'm going to work at XYZ or whatever And I like didn't participate in that economy, even though I had good grades. I was like, I'm just like, I'm like, you're just waiting. I'm above this.

But also, I was an international student, so I was like, I'm just gonna move back to Europe. Like, I don't need to be a part of this job hustle. Where in Europe? Well, I'm actually from Guinea, but my family lives in Belgium, so that's where home is. That's so great.

I wish I had family that lived anywhere. They're in Pittsburgh. Yeah that's where home is. That's so great. I wish I had family that lived anywhere. They're in Pittsburgh. Yeah. My Pittsburgh is fine. Belgium is like the Pittsburgh of content. Yeah. So. It's your, you're, you're already here first.

It's so, it's not that exciting. No, it's like, no, it's like an ISIS hotbed. So like, don't worry. So anyway, I like move to DC instead of like going back home to Belgium. It's like the global economy has cratered and I was like, oh, also when you have a degree from an American university, I realized that like other country,

it's like America thinks that it's great. And when I was looking for jobs in Belgium, they were like, you're definitely gonna need more school. I went to college, yeah, they're like in America. I was like, I went to a job like research girl when I was talking about the degree. They're like, yeah, I don't know. A US degree. Yeah, they were like, sorry, they're like in America. I was like, I went to a job like research girl, when I was talking about the degree. They're like, yeah, I know a US degree. Yeah, they were like, sorry,

you're in the like two more years of more school. I'm so glad I didn't go to college. I was like, this is so rude. And so I don't know, it's like, I moved to DC and I didn't know a single person there, except that my dad had lived there in the 90s for like two years on some weird stand, and he loved it.

And the one time that I had been to visit, I was like, oh, this city is great. I was maybe 11, and I was like, one day I'll live in DC. DC? Yes, well, I think I had the exact opposite. I mean, totally, but my background is like I'm a diplomat brat, right?

So it's like, look at this clean place with like smart people who do politics. You like didn't have a normal DC experience? No, totally. I did not have a normal DC experience. And then I got seduced by the monuments that night, like foolish, foolish. Sure, totally.

And then you tried to drive there one day and it was a complete nightmare. Totally. So I moved there with like no money, but I'm like, I'll find something. I apply to like literally 100 jobs. This woman calls me back, and she worked in John Kerry's office. And she was like, I need a press intern.

And she was like, I don't remember what question she asked me, but the subtext was definitely like, are you black? Because like, she couldn't figure out my name. And she obviously was also black, like, are you black? Because she couldn't figure out my name. And she obviously was also black, like, sight unseen essentially like, offers me this job to be an intern that does press class. There it is, we finally exposed the unfair advantages that the black people have in the US.

In, in, in, in, the ones we've been hearing about. In Senate offices. Yeah. But it was one of those things you know, where she probably had a classic. Listen, she probably had like a like 300 resumes on her table and she was like, you know, like, I'm when I got a sister in here, some weird ship.

Sure. So anyway, she offers me this internship and I go, great, I can start tomorrow. How much does it pay? And she like laughs. She's like, it, she's like, you're gonna be working for John Kerry, like you don't like, that she winked, so that's why I just went to the kitchen. No, this is all on the phone.

Oh, if you're, I just, no, but you're listening, you can't see what's happening. There was a winking at all. There was definitely a winking, but I mean, I was happy when you winked, you said you'd be working for John Kerry because I take that as something very nefarious. No, she was just excited to be like,

it is an honor and a pleasure and you'll do this. And for me, like I had been supporting myself since I was 17 essentially, and I was like, I can't afford to do a four-day-hour job that's not paid. So then I ended up living in DC in this political career town, and I'm working at a toy store.

And- Oh, you're gonna take the job. No, because I had bills to pay a judge we know when you think about it politics is like a bunch of toys being moved around i know you know like i'm not you know unlike another what's you know you think about politics is really just a game it is just a game but you know unlike like some of you know like you media people of non-collar persuasion media

who have parents who can like subsidize your like i'm like families from you crane ish basically whatever it's like who can subsidize your age. Like families from Ukraine ish basically. Whatever, it's like who can I force you to do this? Who can I force you to do this? So anyway, it's like, so from the onset, I have this like very non-traditional path. It's like I'm working at a toy store in this town

that's like so obsessed about like status and work and where you work. And honestly, looking back on it, that's probably maybe one of the best things that ever happened to me because it was a very humbling experience. And I also learned really quickly that I didn't give a shit what other people thought.

And I was like, you know what? Like, tell me. No, I was just, I'm thinking like, a toy store. Was this like a Toys R Us? Or was this like a toy store? No, it was one of these like, it was like a, you know like in 2007, how like Chinese lead paint was like a Toys R Us, or was this like a black toy store. It was like a, you know, like in 2007,

how like Chinese lead paint was like such a problem. And so parents were like freaking out. Like you have a kid, so you probably understand this. So this lady, so this lady was like importing like all these European just like plain wooden toys and like marking them up like hundreds of dollars. Organic toys. Totally.

She's like, here's this like two-year-old rattle, buy in for $400. Oh, you know what? When you have a kid, you're like, what is, what are they chewing on? Exactly, what is this? They're only the bus for my kid. Because they'll put anything in their mouth. No, totally.

Actually, we're pretty lucky, Zelda does not. She's not that kind of kid. She's in bite, she doesn't chew things. May your kids be pretty smart. She's amazing. She reprimands me when I't bite, she doesn't chew things. Me and your kid's pretty smart. She's amazing. She reprimands me when I'm chewing on my, if I like sometimes I do this. You're a one that chews on my nose.

I'm chewing on my finger sometimes. Like, well, we started reprimanding her because she was doing it, and we're like, don't chew on your finger because the bad habit. And now she yells at us about it. You got it. She's pretty good.

Anyhow, not to say. Not to say way into a Zelda conversation. It's like we're into it. Although we met, you were like, I know your child. I mean, yeah, we good. Anyhow, not to say- Not to say- Not to say- Wait until we got a conversation. Well, when we met, you were like, I know your child. I mean, yeah, we're, you know, just weird. Yeah, I'm like, you know, we can talk about that a little bit. No, we will, we will talk about, okay, so anyhow.

So do you wear your toy store? You find it very, very, very, very, very weird. So I'm like, we're gonna toy store, it's like weird. And then I move on to working in this thing tank. And I realize that I'm like too fun to do policy work. And then what happens from the thing tank? Yeah, from the thing tank. And then from the thing tank.

It's just like you work in like comms. My boss was very much like made me feel like really early on. He was just like, mm, like it was me on a cohort of like all these boys. And he was very much like, I'm not really going to invest in you. Like you're not going to be a star here. Ah, that's always good here. And, no, but it was perfect. And then-

I mean, you could just chill. Yeah, it's like I kind of chill, but at the same time, I was like, this is great, you're betting on the wrong horse. And so, it's like, I think about every single, like those six boys I was like, co-hurt with, all no bodies. I'm like, it's like, thing tank, it's like,

I'm too, I'm too cool for this. I don't need to do this, but I meet some really cool people and I'm like, oh, I, you became the most connected person in the world. I just, yeah, it's like along the way, I like meet all these cool people. After that, I go work at like some social media firm

and then like that lasts for like a year and a half. I like, I have a checkered employment history in the sense that, uh, in the sense of like a bad, like, so that's a bad stuff. No, no, no, it's, you know, like it's not like I'm fired or like anything nefarious, like that. I'm just very much of like, if you want to make more money or you want to do more interesting things, you need to be okay with like moving, like making moves, right? So I'm just like after a year and a half, I just like look around and I'm like,

what's going on here? Who's gonna pay me double of what I'm making? And then you're like, move on. But a lot of people, my, but a lot of people my age like don't feel that way. They're just like, they're like, I have a LinkedIn profile to build. I gotta, you know, like,

really? Cause I feel like everybody is like constantly changing jobs like every year. But it stresses them out. I'm telling it is stressful not to me. I'm just like No, I'm just really no anyway. I'm telling you like I don't know. I'm skipping I'm skipping around You're scouting all of this like none of these like jobs are memorable You know like that's kind of a maybe that's a problem like you're having you're going to jobs that pay well No exactly no exactly like I'm like I'm work. I was definitely you're going to jobs that pay well. But not at all mean anything to you. No, exactly. I'm working, I was definitely, yeah,

it's like I'm taking all these jobs that I'm not passionate about, not like huge creative direction there. But I'm doing things that are like really important. I worked at a nonprofit for veterans here in New York. That was really cool. And I was like, I don't know anybody on the army, but like if you can make me care, like,

shoo, anybody can care. So, you know. You took a really modern view on that. Yeah, but in the sense where, you know, I was like, if you can get me outraged about the treatment of a certain population that I have no stake in, then, like, clearly, I know how to message for them, right? And so, I always worked in this weird digital world

of running email campaigns and running marketing campaigns and whatever digital media is at that time. It was not long ago, was it? Yeah, no, it was a long ago, but I feel that in nonprofits, it's very undefined. It's just like, it's everything from who fixes the printer to who's raising money via the text messages. Like that's usually the same person. Is it you?

It's me. At some point it was you. That was me. So I didn't know like I did that for a while and then I moved to San Francisco to work at Google. Did that for like a 1.5 minutes. I actually quit my job on Kara Swisher's podcast. It's really funny.

Oh yeah, I think you told me this. Oh, so I should say, maybe I should say, but like we met officially, I mean, we knew each other on- We met at a luminadia vibe. Yeah, but we met and got high at the code commerce. I wanna say that. Yeah, I don't care.

I said that. I mean, it had like really, so I don't really smoke weed that often. Cause it makes me into a paranoid maniac. But you said yes immediately. Yeah, because I was like, I need to do something to get out of this headspace. Yeah, you looked really stressed out.

Yeah, because it was like, you know, the code is not a chill stuff. Explain code to the people who are not there. So people who don't know. Now it's funny, because I covered code, like I used to go and like write live blogs and stuff and I was, you know, the very code is a conference for the richest tech people to come together and smooth The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is.

The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is.

The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is where. The people what it is. The people what it is where. The people what it it. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people what it is. The people of the vibe of a Wall Street journal conference. It is where money goes to play. It's where people with money go to play, but like. It's a nice resort, you know. It's beautiful, they have great ranch dressing there. So my favorite, did I tell you that? They have one of my favorite ranch dressings in California.

That's so funny. You know, that resort is like lit, it's so nice. It's a beautiful, no, it's on a cliff. They have it at this resort. It's called Teranaya. I think it's high pronunciation. Yeah, you should go there. You know, I'm not great at pronunciation,

but it's like on a cliff. No, every time I'm there, I'm like, I call Laura and I'm like, do we need to come here and like have a vacation at this place? I can't believe you don't bring your wife to code. Just for the vacation potential. I mean, do you think't bring your wife to code just for the vacation potential. I mean, do you think that the, I feel like there's low, I'm sorry. Do you want to be like relaxing by the pool while like Elon Musk is walking around with Larry

Page? Yeah, but also, but also those two people aren't at the pool. Like this is what I'm saying. No, they're not, but they're around. Yeah, but who cares? You want to have like, I'm saying. No, they're not, but they're around. Yeah, but who cares? You want to have, like, I'm trying to think of like, a journalist who you don't want to see

while you're like, sunbathing. Like, think of a journalist who you don't want to see. Wal-Mosper. Don't shade Wal-Mosper. I love Wal. He's a legend. I love Wal-Mosper. Yeah, I don't want Wal-Mosper hovering over me

while I'm trying to catch some rays. Yeah, but he wouldn't be hovering over you. He would be talking to Elon Musk. No, he would. He'd be like, why aren't you asking tougher questions? Exactly. So anyway, that's the context in which. Sorry, is that not a good description?

You tell me what you think the code code goes as a judge. No, that's totally what it is. It's this invitation only very expensive, like tech thought leadership, exercise. I should say put on now by my former company, Vos. I know, but you know, but like Josh, you were there. So that means that like you are part of the one. I paid. I paid.

You're like really stressed out about like raising money for your thing. Yeah, well, I was actually, actually what was funny is we were like closing the deal to raise the money is like there. The whole reason I kind of went there was to like finish up stuff. Oh my god, is that why you stood up so many times to ask questions because you wanted the people to like see you?

No, I stood up so many times to ask questions because the questions were pretty fucking boring. And I felt like if somebody doesn't ask something interesting, I was going to like, you know, lose my mind. No, it's like, yeah, I don't know. I'm sitting standing there going like, why does somebody ask this? And then I'm like, why don't I ask it? Yeah. So anyway, the reason- It's because Waltz, sorry, not to interrupt.

Go for it. Karen Waltz have the all of the times I've ever gone to the thing, which by the way, it can be very fun because you do get to meet a bunch of crazy smart people, but it also is very weird because there's a bunch of weird, rich people. But like Martha Stewart's just like Waltz

and around, you know, which is not like a norm, maybe for you, I don't know, but for me, it's not a normal thing. That's normal for me, you know. But they're always giving me shit because I do tend to ask like to hard questions, old weird questions, and they like that because it makes for good content.

You do make a good, you make a good conference content. I love making, I love making con, con, it's what I call it. Yeah, so anyway to wrap this all up, it's like now I'm essentially like career wise, I'm a consultant, I do all of this weird. Consultant is such a nefarious word. It's like people use it for everything.

I'm not like a business school consultant, I'm just like, I've worked enough places. And you know, I know people that I am like a good pincher. I'm like, do you need to set up a new thing? Do you need to launch a product? I'm like, I'm good at marketing. No, it's like, but some people are like, I'm a consultant, you eater. I'm like, do you need to set up a new thing? Do you need to launch a product? Like, I'm like, I'm good at marketing. No, it's like, but some people are like, I'm a consultant, you know, like,

no, I think you're out of work is what's happened. No, exactly. Now, like you're a consultant, and like, you actually are doing things. Oh, yeah, no, my hustle is legendary. No, no, that's why I'm saying like, you're super connected. Like, you know everybody, like in our brief conversation there,

you're like, you know, I was like, talking about something, you're like, oh yeah, and then like, all kinds conversation there, you were like, you know, I was like talking about something and you're like, oh yeah, and then like all kinds of people, you're like, I know them, I know them, I went to school with them, I worked with them, I did that, I did that. But you know them too, so I was not surprising. I'm a little bit. It's not surprising.

And then everybody was like waving at you. Like people were like, they were like, that's Josh Topolski. I don't remember that happening. It like, it definitely happened. People would like, people would like stop and be like, that's that guy. They were like, that's Josh. We know him as one of the coolest guys.

Yeah. Okay, thank you. It's very flattering. This is one of the, this is one of the, this you can tell a sign of a very successful person that they make you feel very good when you're with them. Of course. You're like, this is like a president.

You know, people always talk about when they're like around the president and they feel like they focus their attention with them. Of course. You're like, this is like a president. You know, people always talk about when they're like, around the president and they feel like they focus their attention on them. And you're like, I can't believe the president spoke to me. You know who's like that? Tom Cruise. No. That cruise missile is not like that.

No, when I met Tom Cruise, which I love talking about because it was the highlight of my life. Second to us hanging out of code. Oh yeah, when you talk to Tom and he makes you feel like you're the only, it's like Gatsby, you know that passage in the Great Gatsby where they talk about, I think I've said this before in the pockets, I feel like I'm fucking repeating myself now.

They say there's a passage in the Great Gatsby where it's like when Gatsby focuses attention on you, you feel like you're the only person in the world. And that is how Tom Cruise makes you feel when you talk to him. That is not how I make people. No, it is. That's how I feel right now. I think we're gonna take a break. We're gonna get this back on track.

Yes. I know you're very concerned about it going off. I feel like this is actually a trait you may have picked up as like being a person that has to deal with, like, do a lot of things and connect a lot of people. You're like, let's get this fucking shit together. Okay, we gotta get it done. So we're gonna take a break,

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We're back with Aminatu, so she's forced us to get back on track on the podcast. She felt like we were going off the rails. Oh no, we were just doing your backstory. We were leading up to which we still haven't gotten to, which incredibly. Yeah, we still haven't answered one of the questions. You got to the Empire of Call Your Girlfriends. So I have this, it's like, I just take jobs all the time and follow my curiosity.

Like I do stuff that I, at this point, it's like do stuff that I like. I'm like consulting one million places. Super happy, but one thing that I've always had, even from when I was working at a toy store like board out of my mind is that I'm like a firm believer that everybody should have a side hustle. Like I think that you do for money that doesn't pay you,

that is a creative outlet for you. That is just something that you get to do for fun. I got a hobby. Me not a hobby. Yeah, like a hobby, but like, you know, like a little more turbocharged than that. Yeah, public hobby. It doesn't have to be public, but sure.

And so, so this might like, Anna and I are friends for like a minute. And we, Anne has this really good friend, an LA Gina Delvack, who is now a good friend of mine also. We go on this like Palm Springs, like Lady Vacation with many, many women. I love Palm Springs, I've never been, but I wanna go.

You're full, you should go. I know, I know. I don't live in LA, so it's tough. There's flights to there. So, there's a jet blue flight from from JFK to Palm Springs. I got your ex. What do you care?

So anyway, Gina has a background in public radio and she, I guess like through knowing us, is just like, you guys would make a great podcast and I'm like, what is that, that app in the iPhone that I don't know how to use? And at this point, all I listened to is this American Life, but I literally don't even listen to it in the iTunes app.

I have the, you know, like, I have the this American Life app, so I'm like, I don't know what that app does. And so Gina kind of like talks just about doing this like for a long time. And, you know, every time I'm like, yeah, that sounds great, whatever. And somehow, you know, like some, you know, like some dude that we know essentially, like, tells me that, uh, yeah, he's like, you know, like, there's

not really a lot of women in podcasts because, you know, it's hard and you need attention to detail. And whatever you say, you should like that to me. I mean, he was like, yeah, I don't know if you're up to it. Yeah, no, basically, he's like, this is why there's a lot of dudes in podcasts, you know, because like dudes are like, they're attention to detail. That's not true. No, I know one thing about dude. Anything misogynist men tell you is not true. Like all of it is a lie. He's like how Trump everything he says when he says believe me is actually he's lying. Yeah, but he's like, yeah, but guys, you're not good with detail. No, totally. I'm like the worst detail person. But also for me, I'm like, you know, this is my other thing, is if you tell me

that there's a thing that like only Mendo, literally the first thing I think is how hard can it be. Turns out, it's not so hard. Wow. But it is kind of hard. Gina is who figured it out. So Gina, like kind of re-approach us again and she was like, here's what I wanna do.

And she just had like these very concrete steps, you know? Cause I'm like, I'm doofy about this. I was like, tell's what I wanna do. And she just had these very concrete steps, cause I'm like, I'm doofy about this. I was like, tell me what I need. And she sends us an Amazon, as she's like, buy these things. This is the structure I wanna do. She's like, here's your little setup. Yeah, Gina Delvac, Masterminds,

Collier Girlfriend. And for me, at this point, I was like, I don't know, like I don't make content for the internet. And that was in it, but I really wanted to learn more about audio. I thought it was really fascinating. I, like, a lot of my work weirdly is also storytelling,

but for different purposes. And for like operations. Yeah, but also running a campaign is different from writing articles. And so I was like, this is a new thing that I don't know how to do that I would like to learn about. Like the actual production of it or just making something.

All of it, like making something. And also like, Anand Gina are like really rad ladies and I wanted to work with them. You know, so it's like, oh, the three of us, we'll start doing this thing. We had, I literally thought like we would record this thing and you know, like our friends's like, oh, the three of us, we'll start doing this thing. We had, I literally thought we would record this thing and our friends would listen, pity listen to it. And that's kind of not what happened,

which has been really cool. Right, well, I mean, it's like very popular. I mean, people everywhere listen to it. People everywhere. No, I don't know how popular it is, but I know that it is like a thing that I see. Yeah, I mean, I know when something is, I know when something has really become like a part of

at least like my universe of culture when I like accidentally see it places and I like accidentally see it all over the place. Like, I'm like scrolling through my feed-ins. I I like accidentally see it places and I like accidentally see it all over the place like I'm like scrolling through my feed and somebody's like talking about it or it's like being recommended and iTunes to me or like on some other podcast app that I use or like somebody's telling me about their podcast and it's like oh call your girlfriend I listen to that I feel like you guys have like hit some saturation point which is very important that's the first step to world domination.

Yeah, well, part of it is that one, we, our show is just two women being themselves talking about, we talk about hybrid and low-brow stuff. Yeah. And it's not, we're an independent show. Gina is a great producer and editor, but the show is essentially like of the phone conversation that Anani would have.

And clearly we're friends and people can like hear that through the, you know what I mean? But I think those are some of the best. Like I actually, you know, I used to do a podcast where we were as a bunch of people and I always thought like, excuse me, sometimes we get finished and I was like, that was just like a bunch of people

just like bullshitting with each other. Like We could have had that conversation on the phone, but those are sometimes really the best conversations because they're real. They're raw. They're not artifice. I think actually in some ways, this is I'm going to ramble on some philosophy here for a second. But I think the podcast and a lot of what we make now is a reaction to this very manufactured. I mean, I know this may be obvious, but people have a voice when they do TV, they're like TV voice. Sorry, I'm losing my voice, the end of a week.

At the end of every week, I'd lose my fucking voice. And it's like podcasts are like what makes them good is that they are natural. And that it does feel like you're being allowed to hear a conversation that you would normally like this conversation. I mean, it's intimate. You're literally in people's ears.

You are. You're nuzzling up against their ear and your whispering things to them. And you're saying, saying, welcome, get come into my world. I want to tell you about it. And then you're like, boom, here's an ad for some great panties.

I mean, yeah, you know, but at the same time, I say panties, Is that a patriarchal? First of all, when you go home, have your wife explain like, patriarch, you, because saying the word panties is not a... I don't know, I don't want to promote a patriarchal world with you in anything that I do. Because you know, because as you know,

as I said before, now you guys didn't hear this, but I was, before we came on, I was saying about my extreme wokeness. Magori is ten times less woke than me. Anyhow. Somehow that's not hard to believe. I have a full beard. He has a mustache. I think do the math. Okay. Now getting back to your story, let's forget about Matt Magori for a second if we can. back to your story. Let's forget about Matt McGory for a second if we can. So I'm so offended. You're putting me in the same breath.

I'm not. I'm trying to get the breath away. I'm trying to breathe then to go to the next breath. So look, so anyhow, so you're doing this podcast. It's just a conversation. Well, what point does it start like becoming like a thing? You're like, oh, this is a thing. Like, do you remember a moment? You know, I, this is gonna sound like very cheesy, but it's true. Nobody is more shocked and surprised at like how this show is doing than me. I do, you know, it's like we recorded in our closets.

We, you know, like our equipment is cheap. It's legit like a fly-by-night operation Like I can't tell you in the early days like how many it just like Like the lost episodes of color girlfriend. It's like oh your microphone was an on mine was an on I'm pure crash. I wouldn't hear you like just all of the stuff and so and I think that also like living in San Francisco And it's like I'm a little removed from. Oh, right, you're in San Francisco. Yeah, I mean, I know like you're not like in LA

in my mind, because that's my name. Yeah, I mean, San Francisco is a long distance conversation in Russia. You need to go to LA. I mean, sure. So, you know, so it's like, I just, I'm not there yet, but like clearly, you know, like, but if I'm being perfectly honest,

there is also the thing that makes me, and maybe like this is the moment, right, is, it's whenever I'm made uncomfortable by it is when I realize that it's happening right now. I mean, it kind of is happening. I'm not, I don't, I don't feel comfortable being like a public-facing person. Well, you fucked up then, because you don't have a podcast that's broadcast. Yeah, but it's audio. It's like an audio product, you know, it makes me really. You're doing a live show. Sure.

But you're talking like we're doing these to millions of people. There are hundreds of people. Hundreds right now, and then it's going to be thousands, and then there's going to be something that's going to be like, we want to do a TV show. And then I'm calling a girlfriend the thing. Yeah, they're gonna be a movie about you guys.

First, there'll be a documentary and then a feature film. Making a call your girlfriend on Netflix. 12 partners. This is all very kind. But yeah, you know, I don't know, but it's sometimes like we get mail from people who just like really connect with what we're doing, like, you know, like people will have these very specific. Just like very specific feedback where I'm like, yes, you get this. It's like being like a somewhat young person and having, you know, like, like female friendships is so important and it's such a defining characteristic of our audience. And we kind of all have the same taste level and we're just like moving about the world.

You've got a circle too. Like what was the episode? You were talking to Jessica Valenti and Jess Bennett. It's like two episodes ago. Yeah. And it's like, you can tell, there's like, it's like a group of women that are all doing really interesting things. I mean, we're feminists.

Like, that's really what it is. Yeah. We're women who are unapologetically feminists. I was thinking it's a horrible thought, but I just want to say it. Tell us. Okay. It's going to fucking sound so bad. But I was like,

listening to the show today actually, and I was like, you know, I was thinking about our conversation and things that I wanted to talk about. And do you remember the show? Maybe it's still on the air. I don't fucking know. It's like an MTV show called Girl Code.

There's also a guy version of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm aware of that. Okay, in my memory of Girl Code, is that it is pretty offensive. Like that it's pretty dumb. Like it's like dumb shit, like same for guys too. It was like dumb shit that like, bros would tell each other about like how to be.

But like I was thinking like, let's say I was like, God, this is so great that something like this exists. Like I was thinking a little bit about Zelda and that like, I was like, okay, maybe Zelda won't be subjected to girl code, like bullshit for girls because like there will be more interesting, intelligent, meaningful things for like women and young women in this world. I feel like your show is like a part of that.

Like I feel like my access to it is like somewhat, I mean, I totally enjoy it. I get it, but like I think there's something limiting in just the fact that my experience is like being a white guy, you know, or like, I've gone through the world being a dude. But like your conversations while they are totally like accessible by anybody, I think have a unique resonance. My feeling is have a unique resonance if you're like a young woman. And like, it's really good to hear like,

it's just good to hear like a fucking intelligent conversation about like being a young woman in the world that and doesn't patronize and isn't condescending and like is like ingrown saying and engage and it was like kind of an, I was like, okay, maybe like the future will be this will be this will be like the most popular thing and like, and like girl codes won't exist. But that maybe is a little ritual thinking. Thank you. You know, like, who codes won't exist. But that maybe is a little wishful thinking. Thank you.

You know, like, who knows, right? I think that I, early on, I told Anna and Gina when we started making the show that my theory is that in every office in America, the least powerful youngest girl there listens to our show. She's like, listens to our show and she's like, one day I'm gonna move on from this front desk. She's planning her attack. Totally.

And building up confidence. And anecdotally, a lot of the cool advertising opportunities that we've gotten are just weird things have come from that, where somebody will email us and be like, I don't know what you gals do, but my little intern over here says. She's like, that was just, I don't know what you gals do, but my little intern over here says. She's like, that was just, I don't know what you gals do, that's not actually.

No, not in those. The guy calls you from the 1940s. Yeah, I don't know what you're doing over there, but that's how it feels. Right, that's a test. No, but that's totally how it feels, right? And that's been really cool to watch, just I don't know, being part of making other women feel confident

about who they are and how they talk. You know, like, we're, we don't edit the, like, pauses and ums and likes from our show. Oh, I know. I was counting. And, you know, like, that's patriarchy. I was actually, you know what I was doing. I was like, I was so psyched because I noticed that you guys were saying like, and I was like, oh, I say like a ton.

And it made me feel, it made me feel so much better about my level of... I always say vocal fry is an empowering thing. I will use it when I'm being a total bitch because I'm like, and you should know, I'm also gonna be a big femme bitch about that. Vocal fry is a social construct. I'm like, is it?

Is it? It's kind of not true. It's not real. And as far as I have heard it, if we had to choose the closest thing to vocal fry, that's the way I read glass talks. So I'm like, why are you blaming it on us? Because they don't like gay people and women.

Yeah, no, I mean, that's literally what it is. You have to do something about gay people and women. I've been saying that for a while now. Give them podcasts. Give them podcasts. Give us podcasts. What you do is normalize vocal fry. I think it's what you're saying is we need to like You know, I don't know. I don't know. I'm a less reactive to it Piano some people are awful listen here's the thing here's the thing about like doing that right and that's kind of a conscious Decision on our part too we you know like and then I like button When we, if we need to, no, it's true, right? It's like, if we,

I'm sorry, I know that is true, but so far my experience with you, like I would never describe you as a buttoned up professional. Listen. Me professional. No, we're professionals, but we are also, you know, just really aware of like who,

like you can be yourself. You're like full self in everything that you do. If I go on NPR, I'm not gonna say like, and I'll like 10 times. If I'm talking to my best friends and you know, like my hair is down and I'm having a good day and I wanna complain about, I don't know,

like how terrible, you know, Ivanka's dad is. Um, then. Oh, you do not refer to him by name. Oh yeah, that's his name on our show. Is that a thing? Yeah, it's a thing. Ivanka, I feel like Ivanka maybeanka maybe I don't know she should be mentioned. She's the scam. I just sold she sold everybody Baron's Baron sister Kim

Tiffany is the best Tiffany is also shady Baron. No, why she gave the best speech at the convention Baron. It's like the best That's like the best speech of the convention is like saying like's like the best, that's like the best speech of the convention is like saying like the least burnt hot hot. No, I mean, obviously, but I was so proud of her, you know, because they don't claim her. And I'm like, you know, I'm like, this girl's got a lot of problems.

But, she's like, the one who came the closest to humanizing the dad, right? She was like, she was like, one time my friend died, and my dad called me. And I was like, that's what your dad's supposed to do. She's like, wow. Now that one, I took a break from my busy called me and I was like, that's what your dad's supposed to do. I could ask. Wow.

No, that one. I took a break for my busy schedule. I can tell you. No, but, honey, let me, let me, Tiffany, sorry, this is so off topic. Tell us. This is how we do it though here, really.

Did we talk about Tiffany Trump in the last episode with Ashley? Yeah, we talked better about her in my family. Okay, I don't want to be repetitive. Did we talk about the Osborne kid? That's like the Tiffany the Tiffany Trump of the Osborns. What is her name? There's one there's always one in these crazy families You know talking about there's like an Osborne that would

Amy Osborne she wouldn't be on the show Listen Amy Osborns the normal Osborn that's that's what I wonder about Tiffany No Tiffany is just like it's just that they didn't like her mom. You know, like that's what happened. Amy. Marla. Yeah, and Amy was literally like a, she's like, I don't have time for these crazy people.

She made us a job. Yeah, Amy's probably like a CPA somewhere. She's really on the apprentice. Yeah, no, she's like, she's probably like doing somebody's taxes has like, you know, a regular job. Or like, she was like a limo drive from the Apprentice and give her like a speaking, they're like a speaking role. Don't show Amy. Amy is probably like, Amy is doing well. Amy Osborne. Yeah, Amy was like, I would very much like to be excluded from the narrative of the

Slamway. That's what I was like. That was my impression. That was my impression. No, Tiffany was literally like, Tiffany They were like, we don't like your mom's, we're weird. I really thought like there was, and the problem with Tiffany is that like, she's the only child of that marriage, so she didn't have allies. You know, cause there was the thing where like, they didn't include her in the hug. Remember, like that was weird.

She had, they dropped Baron from the speeches too. It's not Baron from the speeches. Baron's young though, right? Baron is really young and his mom is and his mom, okay, first of all, his nine. And his mom is like overly protective of him. And he's the thing that makes me really sad about Baron.

Melania did this interview. I'm so angry at her. Anyway, she does this interview and they're like, tell us about Baron and like her, like defining Karis Derrick's like, characteristic for Baron. Is that he, she says he's not a sweat, he's not a sweatpants child.

And I was like, so you're dressing him like a little Trump every day and you're not gonna give that kid like a elastic waistband. Yeah, give him the waistband. Let me tell you something. He's gonna turn into Chet Hayes. That's how you make a Chet Hayes.

Who's Chet Hayes? Oh myze. That's how you make a chat. Hey, Zeta who's chat haze? Oh my god This is white rapper child with it. No chat haze is not a person. Okay, first of all You spend so much time on the internet and you're a white man. How do you not know about chat haze? Oh? Chat haze is not a thing. He's a fake last name. That's a rapper name is chat haze He's a fake last name. That's a rapper name. It's Chet Hayes. You do imagine the disappointment that Tom is feeling. Yeah, they don't talk about it.

Tom and Rita, no, they can't talk about it. He's like, we're so proud. We're so proud of Colin. He's doing great stuff. He's our man. I'm like, what about Chet? He's like, I don't, I missed that. I've got to go work off to this movie.

No, it's bad. I mean, I had no other. Yeah, that's Chet Hayes. That's Chet Hayes. That's Chet Hayes. What he didn't prepare for this? Wow. Chet Hayes is a, he looks pretty tough. He's got two guns.

Anyhow, all right, so getting back to what were we talking about? We were talking about how you're excited. It's going to be a cool media for your genre. Oh yeah, I was comfortable. I was talking about it. You were, there was some really great content. How great your girlfriend is and how it gives me no free humanity.

And now you've got merch. I mean, we just launched a merch. So here's the thing also about Collier Girlfriend that I think a lot of people don't realize or whatever it's, like we've talked about this meant, like you and I have talked about this offline. But the thing is that it is work. You know, it is, it's not,

like we are incorporated. We're a three person part person. Oh, are you? Yeah, it's like we're running a small business. Oh, this is a real thing now. Yeah, no, we're talking about this the first step. We're running a small business. And let me tell you, who doesn't help you run a small business,

the small business of registration. We're all, Clier Girlfriend is like, none of our, it's nobody's full-time job. Nobody's full-time job. Not yet. Not yet. This is how Marin started. Sure.

You're back in Paris, and you're just like Mark Marin. Except I'm like nicer. Yeah, well. I'm like the opposite of Mark Marin, actually. You guys don't spend 10 minutes talking, like just talking about your own problem. I just listened to his Eric Andre interview, and I was like, when, I've listened to like seven Marin interviews, like just talking about your own problem. I just listened to his Eric Andre interview and I was like,

when I've listened to like seven Marin interviews, like total. And I was like, I really want to hear this one. But I'm like, at what point does the interview start? Yeah. No, his intros are ridiculous. They are. They're so, I mean, I get it. That's his thing. We could build software for this. I'm telling you, let's talk.

That actually is. How could you eliminate the Marin intro? That's a feeling, that's like a setting. Yeah, Marin intro, yes, no. It's like the Marin blocker, and then you just hear the, like, guess side of the Marin room. I like that a lot. I like that a lot. We're like practically there.

I think we could do that. No, we're like practically there. But to anyway, yeah, no, I'm the opposite of Mark Marin. But congratulations to him on all his success. So you're running a small business. So we're running a small business. We're running small business. We're like busy ladies.

So it's like, yes, we're doing these live shows, yes, we're doing merch. And they're also all, I don't know, it's always like this is the next evolution of what the beast is at this point, right? But it's still fun. What do you think it goes from here? You know, I don't know yet.

I'm just like, I'm trying to focus on this show on Thursday. And you know the thing about this project that's really interesting too, is that where it goes, like, is where it goes is not just my decision. And so. What are you saying you're saying Ann has a saying? Yeah, like, Ann, no, not only do they have,

like, Ann and Gina have a saying in Ann, is that they also, like, their creative vision is probably even better than mine. Right, that's unlikely, but I'm supposed it could be possible. It's quite, it's plausible. It's like a shameless complimentary dialogue. You're doing the sandwich compliment.

I like it. Yeah. The compliment sandwich. That's me. Mr. Complement say. So yeah, so you know, I don't know where it goes from here, but I know that right now it's fun to do. Like, people are reacting to it in a positive way. And for me, as somebody

who like cares deeply about feminism and about media that is made for women, I, like, I'm really enjoying, I get to be part of this moment because in some way I'm like, this is part of my, like, larger feminist project. Right. And, you know, life-long project. Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, it's a lifelong, it is, you know, I actually, I'm like, these, like there are core values and like things that I really care about. And making a space for women and making a space for women of color specifically to get to be their authentic selves, you know, and not apologize for who they are and not have to deal with like all of the bullshit, you know, like the world just telling you that you don't belong

here. I don't know, I really hope that, I don't know, like when you were saying that thing about your daughter, I really identified with that. I was like, you know, I feel like it gets better for the kids, like every generation. I do. It really does, and not even every generation, I'm like in my lifetime it has gotten better.

Yeah, like I have to cling to this idea that it is, I was just gonna ask you this, like I was gonna say, like you've done a ton of shit and you've lived in a lot of different places. And like, you've got, like, your career in your path to doing what you're doing right now is totally, I really like it a lot because it's so non-linear. Mine is also like a very non-linear.

And so I feel like a deep connection to people who are like, have not followed some obvious. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being like, this is my path and like, cause that's what I wanna do. But like, there is something, everybody I know who's followed one of those nonlinear paths has become like a very interesting

and sort of like strange person, like in the best way. And I was gonna say like, so you have, I mean, obviously you're still very young, so it's not like you're like, you can finally make your proclamation. But like, do you think it is like, do you think it is like, is it getting better?

I feel like it's, I feel like there were in a moment right now that seemed so shitty, at least here in the US, and it's like, oh my God, how did they get this bad? Here's my feelings about that. I think that, you know, there's like days where I'm just like, I cannot fucking believe that we're still, you know, like, I don't know.

It's like watching Hillary Clinton become the Democratic nominee is making me, like my brain is about to explode in the sense that, like, I cannot believe just some of the, like, egregious sexism that is still out there. Like, I was watching, ah, I was it, oh, I was watching, like, Fox News. Sometimes I watch Fox News, because I just need to get angry.

To get angry. Literally it's to get angry. No, I think I was like in a lobby or something. It was after, it was like, they were talking about Olympics coverage. And this like asshole, like literally like the cartoon, like cartoon caricature of like what you think, you know, like an asshole person on Fox News was, they were having a conversation about how like all the female athletes, no, I know that one. All of the female athletes like need to wear like more makeup and smile and just like, it was so, it was so, I felt like, you know, like I felt like I was kind of outside of my

body because I was like, I was like, this is so, you know, like, this is the shit that like our grandmas were talking about. I'm like, you're telling me, like, you like, I was like, this is so, you know, like, this is the shit that like our grandma's were talking about. I'm like, you're telling me, like, you know, I'm just like, all of these isms, like racism, sexism, they don't get more sophisticated, you know, like, you don't, you don't go like, hmm, you know, like, why didn't get that job and it was like nuance? No, it's like, literally a people are like,

smile more or call you the n word on Twitter. Like, you know, like things just don't change. It's also if you see that headline that was like Michael Phelps and African American or the other day. That's right, sacramental, sacramental, be shame on you. No, shut up, really?

Yes, real talk. Is that a real thing? Yeah, that was the sacramental. So what's so incredible to me is like, the funny thing is like you mentioned Fox and it's like, it's like, okay, I get you disagree with the politics of like the left or whatever, okay, you got differences of it, and like about the military

or like abortion or whatever the topics are. It's like, how is it that like, you can't, I'm open to you being disagreeable and that's not meet like, finding middle ground. How is it like you also happen to be like sexist and racist and like your mind is like stuck in 1950, even though like, it should not be the case. Like, this is the fuck Republicans problem is that,

it's like, you maybe could get some other people in if you're like, we want a stronger military, but like, you're just as chill about regular things as everybody else. I mean, it's a, I don't know. I, I like to believe that all of these things come from a huge lack of imagination. But to be clear, this is not just a problem

that conservative people face. Progressive men also trash as we are coming to find out. What do you say? I'm just saying that there are deep structural issues that even people who think that they have progressive politics have like huge blind spots about. But, you know, so it's like in some regards, it's like I look at things and I'm like,

God, we're just living in like a trash fire world. Like everything is still awful. We're still fighting about all these things. Yeah. But for me, like I also have a different context, you know, like I, like I am from Africa. My, you know, like my grandmother was married when she was 13.

My mother is one of 21 children. What? Like 21? I mean, my grandpa had three wives. What's up, African polygamy. But it's like, we, that's my context. And then I also grew up in Africa like my parents were not wealthy. And just a lot of, you know, it's like for me,

this just seeing how in like such few time, in such little time, my own like path has changed, you know, from like that grandma who got married really young to like the things that my mother had to do for me to be able to go to college and live in the United States and you know, like live the liberated life that I do essentially like I come from a very conservative Muslim family and I get to, you know, it's like this is what I am now. It's bad you're gonna have to go back now after Trump takes over. No, I mean totally.

See you later. No real talk. That's the fear I have. But for me, it's like I look at how, in less than 60 years, things for women and my family have changed so drastically. And they're so completely different. And my sister and I were, my dad, even like a conservative Muslim man, he never told my sister and I were, you know, like, my dad, like, for even like a conservative Muslim man, like, he never told my sister and I that we could be,

you know, that we couldn't do whatever we wanted to do. We had like a world-class education. We, you know, like, we wear pants. Like, girls from our part of the world, like, don't do that. They don't get to do that. They don't get to be on podcasts with Josh Toposki. Well, you know, the, the like the girls from my village.

And so when I think about that, it's like in some regard, it's also like. The idea that they, that's what, that's what all the girls from that village is. Yeah, that's all they're aspiring to. They're like, you could be on Mark Marin or you could go on Topolski. And what do you want?

And one of these two bearded men. And one of these bearded white men. One of slightly less angry with another. Yeah. You know, I don't know, like not to, not to make light white men. One of these, myro white men. One of the slightly less angry of a mother. I don't know, not to make light of it. I just, for me, that's the context that I come from. See, but I think that is, that is obviously, it's more visceral, I think, for you in specific ways.

But I do feel like my weirdly opted, I have a bad optimism where I think, oh, why wouldn't like the better thing happen? Which like sometimes is very dangerous because you're like, what if I like bet my life on this idea and then like it doesn't work out? Are we talking about your startup? Definitely, definitely.

No, but doing that, I mean, I will say like as it aside, like going like, oh, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm not gonna take like these jobs that were offered instead of doing that, I'm gonna go find money and then bet that I can make something out of nothing, which is a crazy thing to do. But I am always optimistic that you can make something out of nothing, but I'm also optimistic.

The things are going to get better because so far, if you look at 100 years of history, it definitely is, we are fixing a bunch of shit. It's taking a long time. Time of polio anymore. Yeah, but like we're also, but we're fixing, like it seems horrible now. And I think the internet has like,

has made it seem like more acutely horrible because of our view and that's good and bad, right? It's like in one way it's wonderful to expose all of like what is wrong and so you can start to fix it. On the other hand, it's like, well, I'm exposed to a lot of shit that it might not have ever impacted me anyhow. And like, so does it, it's like, you know, the internet's an outrage machine. Sometimes we're outraged about the right things and sometimes it's like, why am I outraged

about this? But like, I do feel like we are moving pretty rapidly. I think what you're trying to say is that the arc of history bends towards justice. Yes, that's what I'm saying. That's, I was trying to recreate my famous quote. Your famous quote of my story. That I did, and that's it. Yeah, so anyhow, anyhow, I just feel like

that's your show in a way, in a small way, but it's part of it. Not that small, now it's growing as we all know. But what if the entire internet's not archive, Josh? This is a thing that keeps me awake at night. Way back, way back machine. Way back that org. I wanna donate my entire email and Gchat archive

to like a small women's college. I was just, first of all, I would admit. Obsess with the library sciences. I would be very interested to go through your email archive. I wanna donate it. I was just like, I don't worry. I'm complaining to Adrian Jeffries who's sitting out here.

She's saying. Hi, Adrian. We were just having this conversation because she's like, I'm paying for the service to delete all my tweets. And I'm like, what? Let's talk offline. No, I'm, and no, and Leah Finnegan,

who I'll do that every year. No, why? Those are important. Those are, because I, because I said stupid shit when I was in team that I thought wasn't How old are you? I'm 27 and I've been on Twitter since 2008 Looks so good. Yeah, so you know like yeah, we can talk about that. No, but I'm saying like

Listen, so I I have OCD like I have digital OCD, I delete a lot of things. Oh, do you? Oh my God. I save a lot of things. I delete multiple back. I mean, and it's totally my OCD personality. It's like even if I'm texting with someone and I'm not happy with the blue gray ratio, I'll delete texts. What? Yeah. What does that mean? Not happy with the blue? You mean there's too many blues? Yeah, versus gray. It's like, you mean, there's- Does that make you feel like you've been texting too much?

No, no, no, sometimes it's like they're texting too much. I'm telling you that it's OCD. It's like, you need... Does that make you feel like you've been texting too much? No, no, no, no. Sometimes it's like, they're texting too much. I'm telling you that it's OCD. It's just, you know, it... That's interesting. I mean, it's crazy. I love that. I think it's so fascinating.

I go to therapy for this. Do you really? I mean, I talk to... Every time I talk to my therapist about it and he's like, I don't understand this digital thing we're talking about. I like, let's talk about your other issues. He's like, what's a text message? Yeah. I love, everybody's like, I think it's a fascinating.

Everybody has weird internet, like, like, ticks that they have, and nobody likes to talk about. And I like that also, you're in therapy. Everybody's in therapy except for me. I feel so stupid. Yeah, I don't trust people who don't go to therapy, honestly. I don't. Oh, that's not good.

I'm not saying that you have to be like in treatment your whole life, but I think that it's really gone to therapy. I think that it's really important to get feedback from people who are not your friends and gonna bullshit you I think that I'm mostly I'm talking about myself. I think that I have a strong personality and I think that I'm not so much and I think I think that's something you know like that's kind of my anxiety sometimes is I'm just like Is everybody just gassing me up or like what is real? But also mental health is very important.

And I have to do that. I think it's also important to just like, just like talk to someone. Like I think, look, I mean I go home and I talk to Laura. Sometimes I'm like, she probably wants me to show. You should pay her $150,000. Yeah, she probably wants me to show. Because we do, I am like,

what am I gonna do about this problem? And it's like, how many times can you hear about my fucking problems before you're like, what you're gonna talk to with her? But it's not like what you sign up for when you get married. You know, it's a rich tapestry. You're like in sickness and in health. I'm gonna tell you all my problems.

I don't even do those vows, but we definitely, I mean, we might have done that. That's the rich tapestry. You're like in sickness and in health. I'm gonna tell you all my problems. I don't even do those vows, but we definitely, I mean, we might have done it. That's the subtext, though. Yeah, I guess so. Yes, of course, they have to listen to your bullshit. Yeah, she's like, sorry, you have the flu I'm leaving. That's exactly how that works. All right, hold on, I had something I wanted to ask you.

Oh, no, I didn't want to ask. I just wanted to, I just recalled something. Uh-oh. Well, we were talking about politics a little bit. Yeah. And I just recalled our first meeting. And I was going to say like code, well, we were kind of like making a little bit of fun of it, or a lot of fun of it. I was not making fun of it. They were my employer at the time. You were

working. Thank you, Cara. We had a conversation that I thought was really good, and we were had a long conversation with Ellen Powell, We did. Who, you know, was a very controversial figure who like, you know, had this crazy like suit. She's not a controversial. Well, she's controversial to like, gamer gay people. Who are most of my hate listeners, okay? Okay. Okay, fine.

But no, it's like a crazy conversation. We were sitting there talking and then she came up and that is like one of the things that happens like if those conferences that can be very cool, or you end up in a conversation with people that you never thought you would be in a conversation with. But like we were looking for each other. Yeah, no, we were.

We were the easy part. No, I mean me and Ellen were looking for each other. You were the, and we were also looking for each other. You were the interloper. No, no, that's not true. We had the end and I was like, we gotta meet up. I scheduled you 20 minutes apart and then,

see this is when an operator does. I was like we got to meet up. I scheduled you 20 minutes apart and then I was just there I can not believe you just call me an operator What are you? raising millions of dollars floating around you were like floating around being like I mean I meet so and so at medium I mean that meet so and so at XC VC and Your operator I am not I'm just a man. I'm there and I have nothing financially to gain from it. I'm just, but you were working there.

You definitely had something to financially the gain, specifically and directly. Yeah, but like that, like, but that's not part of my, whatever, fun. That was a part of your smooth. No, that's not part of my smooth. I'm, when I'm working, I'm working when I'm off the clock, I'm like, I don't, you know, like,

well listen. I need to be part of it. Anyway, so we had this conversation with Alan, who was like incredible, like, she's like, and you're all thinking about how horrible, like the burning, the burning breast situation was, because you were really mad, because this was like when Bernie was in full swing.

This, here's what I was mad about. It is, no, because I feel like people are gonna come after me for this. I know everything that is problematic about Hillary Clinton. I like her. Yes, all of the murders she done. How she like, she like, yeah, Benghazi, like every... She did Benghazi, she did Benghazi, she, you know, like everything,

Shandra Levy, she's all of it. She did all of it. She did all of it. It's like, I know all of those things. I want to contextualize this, right? Is that like, I understand the hesitation that people have about like being supporting her, which some of it is honestly like sexist bullshit

that they have to unlearn. And some of it is like very real shit. Right. But anyway, that's the context I want to give to the burning conversation because people will tell me that I'm like in the tank for Hillary and I'm like, I she doesn't pay me money. Whatever. My thing was the the Bernie bro phenomenal. Specifically, and it's not, you know, it's like it could have been another candidate. It was this very specific thing of like liberal dudes who won like pretend like there's not

a double standard when it comes to women, right? It's like, like you don't, it's like the way that they talked about Hillary Clinton, right? It's almost like she was the queen who thinks that this like thing is owed to her. And I'm like well actually She's like put in time Bernie same job 20 years nothing a show for it She tried it. She's tried to go like two times, right? No totally like remember when in you know, they like made her bake this fucking cookies because she was like You know, she's like I'm not gonna be a first lady who does this. I'm a humiliated her She had to like change her name because they're like your husband's not gonna be a first lady who does this, I'm gonna humiliated her. She had to like, change her name

because they were like, your husband's gonna lose this election. Like, like, she has been dealing with this bullshit forever. And with the Bernie Bros, it was also this like complete lack of acknowledgement from that campaign about the fact that like, you know, like maybe some issues, not just fixed by economic justice. And like, we have to take out the big banks. If you take out the big banks, like maybe some issues, not just fixed by economic justice. And like, we have to take out the big banks and everything.

If we take out the big banks, like, how's that gonna stop like police from shooting me? So, you know, or like racism or whatever. So that, you know, that was not conversation. Like Hillary has, has been perfect on everything by any measure. Yeah, but like these people are politicians.

I don't, name one perfect politician. Barack Obama did not close Guantanamo. As far as I can tell, Donald Trump's never made a mistake, politically. Yeah, no, Donald Trump like, salt of the earth. But you know, I'm just like, hard working America. Hard, you know, the hardest.

It's the hardest. It's the hardest. Huge. Yeah, love's getting his tiny hands dirty, you know? Like, take much of you. Just a small amount of dirt in there and completely filthy. Totally. But so sorry to go off on that rant.

I'm very passionate about this. I'm just like, but I remember thinking it was like a conversation like It was because I was like well, you know, come on That's your Bernie bro. I you know listen Bernie should this red election is rigged. It was stolen from Bernie Hillary had her you know had her people her super delegates I don't think that black people were Bernie. I'm gonna single say that black people are trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that.

I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that.

I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that.

I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. I'm trying to see that. voting block. You can't trust nobody. Can't trust women. Can't trust other minorities. Definitely can't trust white women. Can't like nobody, you know, like, mm-hmm. Black people, we're in lockstep. We don't like Democrats, but we know that's where our best shot is. Well, I mean, that's like, that's what it is.

It's not better off with the fucking Republicans. I know, but so, but with the turning campaign, you know, it's just like, it's like you look at like, you know, the last eight years of the gains that Obama has made Like if you're a black person right and you're just like who knows? We're not like this unicorn like we'll be telling our kids one day that we used to have a president I was black and people won't believe it Which is like once upon a time there's man in Barack Obama. Yeah, I think there'll be more black Yeah, sure

But you know look Trump, Trump is fucking awesome. Ben Carson, we'll have Ben Carson. No, Trump's fucking awesome. Listen, who knows? But so, you know, it's this thing where I like, so like black people, you know, like we, like it's like we see the last eight years, you see the gains that we made,

and then you look at these two like deeply flawed candidates and the party that is deeply flawed that we're part of. And that's the calculus that you make. You're like, who is gonna flock this up less? Right. You know, like, am I gonna put in this new guy that like, you know, like, doesn't understand teamwork? Or, am I gonna go with this lady whose husband plays the saxophone?

I'm the person you all show. I can't be the only metric though. No, but also, like, listen. That's what it means, right? But like, the Clinton machine is like very deep into like block politics. It's not to say no. No, I know, I know, believe me.

Yeah, but you know what I mean? It's well established. I mean, but that's what it takes, that's what how you win elections though. You know, it's like people don't like it. There's a thing that they're so annoying about the convention where people are like, the fuck is none of, no, but the BNC and these fucking people like chanting

and shit and I'm like, I'm, and then they did interviews and people are like, well, I guess I'm, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, part of their game is to stay in power, the best of them actually do things. Yeah, they work in the off season unlike the rest of it. Yeah, it's just like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like,

it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like What the fuck, I may have said this before, but like Hillary Clinton and everybody else whose politician has to climb through like a mountain of shit to get anything done or get anywhere. But think about what it takes for a woman that is Hillary Clinton's age to get to the top of where she is.

Oh, no, of course she has to be married to that kind of man that she was married to. Of course she has to do all of the like deep coalition work that she's done. Of course she has to listen to people. There is no, you know, like, this is it. Like, she is the closest that we have to this moment and she's the most prepared.

It's just like only in this election year that like we're running them. Like you can say what you want about her, like Clinton, like you don't like her. I like her. That lady knows what she's doing. She's the most like prepared. I like Hillary Clinton.

Josh is a Bernie broke. I'm not a Bernie broke. She's the most like prepared person I like Hillary Clinton. Josh is a Bernie row. I'm not a Bernie row. She's the most like prepared person. I did vote for Bernie. And they're running her against like the biggest doofus ever in its competition. No, I know. No, it's scary.

The scary thing is when people were like, oh, Trump said he might drop out and it's like maybe like Paul Ryan will be thrown in or whatever. I'm like, that would be bad because then suddenly people might be like, well, I don't know. There's a normal seeming white guy out there now. So I'm just like, don't you people people watch sports like that's not how that works? Like it's crazy. It's crazy. It is it is truly I have to say so I will say this like

I'm getting too heated up about this. No, it's fine. Well, we're gonna wrap up I don't like it when I get heated up. Oh, you know, I don't Exuberance is my least favorite feeling. It's good to be heated up. No, it's not good. You know why? Got to stay even tempered. Oh, you get to go crazy. Get to go completely off the race. I don't have favorite anything Like I don't participate in fandom. Yeah, I don't it's a why even watching a Mac or PC Mac or PC I Want to talk about it. Oh my god. It's even watching Mac right even watching the Olympics is like hard for me because I'm just like I don't like the feeling. I don't like this feeling of sports.

Like when I just like, start rooting for things, you get too excited. Do you watch housewives or drag race or any of the shows that are basically sports, but in the show? I'm so offended that you would ask me that question, of course. So you don't get heated about like, you know, acid beddy was robbed or like fuck back in it?

Yeah, but you know, like, I don't know, but I get to do that like in the privacy of my own home. You know, like sports is very performative. If there's no stakes also on those shows. What are you talking about? I'm like drags, sports is performative. Unlike drags, sports is performative. I mean I, rude.

I look, I'm not, I'm a weird person. I have, I have a weird list for myself. You don't like to get fired up about something. I don't like to get fired up about anything. I don't like to get fired up about anything. Really? Yeah, I don't like it. Well, like why? How does it make you feel?

Because I feel like it's like too many feelings for one. Oh, really? You don't like to be overwhelmed with it. Josh, where are you talking about this? This is what I go to therapy. You don't have to be overwhelmed with emotion. I don't like to be overwhelmed with emotion. That must be nice.

You control that? Yes, usually. How do you control that? But not watching sports. But I'm not being on this podcast. I'm not being on this podcast. I'm talking about Bernie's bro. No, but it is bullshit.

Can I just say sorry, I'm gonna be, I'll be fired up for you. Because I'm only, I vacillate only between the polls of total intensity. I know, I'm a very emotionally constipated person. I don't like to show too many emotions. I get really overwhelmed. I have an anxiety disorder.

That's really what it is. And so I get it. It means everybody's different. You don't strike me seriously. What's the anxiety disorder? Oh no, like 10 years of anxiety. But you know what? But that's the other thing.

That's why I talk about it. I was like, listen, you can have mental health issues and still be a productive member of society. Like don't let anybody tell you that that's the other thing, like that's why I talk about it. I was like, listen, you can have like mental health issues and like still be a productive member of society. Like don't let anybody tell you that that's not true. Yeah. Some of the, some of the best. Like some of my best friends. Everybody knows, it's sort of, it has a some kind of problem.

No, totally. Everybody has some kind of problem. It's fine. You know, it's like just be yourself. It's okay. Listen, this is a safe space. It's not though. You can say anything you want.

You can always edit it. I already did. I know. Alright, alright, we should wrap because it's been a be actually been going a really long time. Thank you so much for doing this. I have to say, like, I know that, I know that we went to places that you didn't want to go to.

Too many feelings. Are you feeling too many feelings right now? Yeah, I'm probably gonna pop a Xanax and like you have a little down Constantly, please, please give me one before really Okay, no, I'm not trying to get arrested. Please get arrested I'm gonna have to thank you for being here. Thanks for having me tomorrow team team. Well that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with Mortemaro and as always I wish you and your family the very best Though I just had a vision of your family in a world where no one is woke and and it was a very startling, and upsetting vision indeed.