Tomorrow - Episode 67: Aaron Edwards is Finding His Roots

Episode Date: August 23, 2016

Have you seen the musical Cats? Neither has Josh – but Aaron Edwards, a senior editor at The Outline, has a plan to ensure he enjoys every moment of those "jellicle cats." What kind of cat is a "jellicle cat," you ask? Well, first: A jellicle cat would listen to Josh and Aaron talk about their family histories. Second: A jellicle cat would never, ever rush through Frank Ocean's new album... it would know that it is to be savored. And third: A jellicle cat would be happy for the Rio Olympians, but would not sit down and watch a lot of the games. That's what a "pollicle dog" would do. If you don't understand what we're talking about, have another brownie and get educated as you absorb the overpowering emotion of Andrew Lloyd Webber and episode 67. Meow! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to tomorrow on your host Josh Wotsapolski. Today on the podcast we discuss human resources, oxen, and title. But first, a word from our sponsor. Tomorrow is supported by city cards with Android Pay. Listening on your phone, now you can pay while you listen using the same device. Just tap and go. Download the Android Pay app on Google Play or visit city.com slash Android Pay to get started. Android Pay is available for eligible city consumer credit cards and debit cards.

My guest today is a new friend and coworker. He's a senior editor at theoutline.com, formerly another at Buzzfeed. I'm of course talking about the wonderful, the delightful, the handsome Aaron Edwards. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I usually go ballistic with my intros. I think that was so cool. Yeah. Well, it's all true. It's all true. Now one of the things that we're not going to get to right away, one of the things I realized is that I don't know that much about you. Right. I mean, we really have, we've talked a lot, but not about deep subjects, deep personal subjects. No, we sat down and talked about business.

Yeah, we talked about business. And we've been talking about business. It's got to business. But now we're in a personal space where all HR violations are out the window. And we can talk about a post, when that clock, when we punch that clock, and at the island, we have a clock that we punch.

We have the little pieces of paper, what the fuck are those called? A punch card. We have a punch card. We stick the punch card in, and then we're out. There's a whistle. We get our boxes, our lunch boxes. We go out of the factory.

Each our warning light turns off. There's a loud word of this like, eh, eh, eh. One of those like this, like submarine is submerging sounds. Deep pressure is, yeah. Deep pressure, I see it, like the light goes off and it's like free rain. Now we can say whatever we want, anyhow.

So Aaron and I are gonna get into some real and personal stuff at this point. But I should say Aaron was an editor at Buzzfeed. He was working on the Buzzfeed News app, working with people there to like make that thing happen every day. And build it and make it happen, which is one of the things that I found very interesting about him because he is like editorial with like a product kind of mindset, which is a very rare quality.

You would think in 2016, you meet a lot of editors who are like thinking about the product. Not always. Not often. No. It's a big issue. It is. Not always. Not often. No. There's a big issue. It is. It's a huge issue. And in fact, like we're hiring people

and talking to a lot of people. Right. I think just we're just seeing how very special Aaron actually is. Oh man. I was like, maybe he's special, but I wasn't sure. Like the ball.

I'm never going to speak to him. So we, so, so we have, we don't have any agenda. We're just kind of like, we're just chatting. Just spitballing. Just spitballing. So we had a couple of talks about to bring up though. Earlier today, Aaron, we'd start a time out weed, and we were talking about how the outline's going to be a weed,

right? A weed only place of business. Like if you don't smoke weed, you can't have a job. Like we discriminate against people who don't. Right. I actually really don't, but I mean, everyone's on a blue moon, you know. Right?

I mean, everybody's on a red or a red sleigh, but anywhere else, I don't touch that stuff. Everybody dabbles. I feel like we need to be a little worried about this kind of stuff. We really do. I mean, who isn't smoking weed? Who do you think's not smoking weed?

Um, I honestly, maybe my grandma, I don't know. Maybe I'm trying to nunch- She's in Jamaica. Yeah, wait a minute, you're a girl. You're in Jamaica? She lives in Jamaica, yeah. Do you even have to smoke weed in Jamaica I don't know. No, I tried them in Georgia. They're way, you're a girl. You're in Jamaica? She lives in Jamaica, yeah. Do you even have to smoke weed in Jamaica? I feel like it is something that they check every month

to make sure they come by. They come by and they're like, this doesn't seem very smoky and here what's going on. It's the opposite of police in this country. Right. It's like you get a fine for not talking. Yeah.

Wait, so wait, but it's like a religious thing, right? No. I mean. There's the only thing I know about Jamaican. Not with my family, no, it is not. But it has its roots in religion, no? I don't know. You're like, all Jamaican, this, Jamaican, that, that.

Now you know, no. Okay, so this is actually the thing that I was going to bring up is that my relationship to my culture is very ancillary in a lot of ways actually. Like I grew up in New York City. I lived in Atlanta for five years and I moved back to New York after high school to go to college, upstate New York, and then back to the city. Where upstate, where'd you go? Ithaca.

Oh, right, we tied by this. That I knew about you, not Cornell or Cornell. You have to say apparently. Right, because apparently it sounds like I'm being modest, to be like, I went to school in Ithaca, and it actually means I went to Cornell. I did not go to Cornell. I went to Ithaca College, which is a wonderful

experience. You're just across the hill. Did you meet anybody from Cornell while you were there? Tens of people, yeah. A lot of Cornell folks. But yeah, for my culture and I have this weird relationship where I feel very connected to it now at this point in my life because I'm talking to my grandmother more about my family

and where I'm from. She wrote a book about Jamaica and about her father. And she's a wonderful woman. She's a poet. She sets up like a book I can go by. A book you can go by. Yeah, she's incredible. You see, this is something I didn't know about you.

Right. I want to read that book. Yeah, I mean, it's called, oh, no. Oh, man, it's blind. I'm thinking of the day you grab other wrote a book and you can't remember it. I think it's my father's story, I want to say. I had to look it up again.

It's a short book. And I have a book. It's very short. It's like maybe 200 pages. It's still a book. Yeah. More than any book. I've never written a book. Right. But it's stories about her dad and growing up in Jamaica and that sort of thing. So, I mean, I have a lot of friends who are first generation or second generation immigrants. Right. So their parents came here, or they came here directly from the countries they were from. And they're very close to their heritage.

Like one of my closest friends, Hannah, who's Ethiopian, knows so much about her culture, is so connected to it. And our friendship in a way actually ignited a lot that I was forgetting about my own culture because I saw her just relishing in it and loving it, hating it, making jokes about it on Twitter. And that made you feel like you weren't.

It made me feel like I wasn't as good as my own. And I met her around the time that I'd gone back to Jamaica for my grandfather's funeral. And there was just a lot of feelings that were coming back up about heritage and immigrants and black people and family and all this kind of stuff was swirling my head. So I just kind of made a point to try

to be more connected to my culture. And so you're, would you say you're like, you're working on that now? Yes. Not the second. I mean, at this point, yes, I don't think it could be considered as working on your following you're like Jamaican culture. No, not at this very second. I mean, generally speaking, I don't think it could be considered as working on your following your like Jamaican culture.

No, not at this very second. I mean, but generally speaking. Yeah, generally speaking. And it kind of started with food really, because there was a lot of food that I ate as a kid that my grandmother would make that I had not revisited in years. For example, ox tail, which is my favorite dish in the history of mankind. What is it, what is it, what is it, what is it, what is it, what is it, what is it, what is an ox?

An ox is like a, it's like a, like a cow. Is it, is it a cow? I don't know, this is why I don't know how. Wow. I do not know what's going on. Ryan, what's an ox? Specifically. It's a bovine.

Train does it drapped animals. It's similar to a cow. I eat this a picture. Oh, yeah, it's a cow. Yeah. Oh, I see it's got kind of, it's got that little like jacket on. It's like a cow. I eat this a picture. Oh yeah, it's a cow. Oh, I see it's got kind of, it's got that little like jacket on. It's like a cow in a cool house. It's like a cow wearing a jacket.

Yeah. It's cool. Yeah. So looking at that, you definitely want to eat. You definitely want to eat some. You're like, I'll take that. I'll tail of that. Yeah.

Listen, you probably should look that up too because I don't actually know where it's actually dead. It actually doesn't contain ox tail. Maybe not. Who knows. It is an ox tail. I just went, God. What else would it be? I don't actually know where it's actually. It actually doesn't contain ox tail. Maybe not who knows. It is an ox tail. Okay. I just went, God.

What else would it be? I don't know. It couldn't be anything else. I don't know. Anyway, so these are massive gaps in my knowledge about Jamaican culture and about my family. I ate it all my life, grew up all of it. Like, Ackian saltfish, ox tail, collardou, festival.

All these things that were just around me as a kid that I never fully understood. Right. I never fully dissected until age 22, maybe 21. Well, because this is true. I mean, I get that not obviously. I think I'm a stuff from Jamaica, but actually, I mean, a little known fact about me. We're all cousins, really.

Um, that's true. But you know what's funny, hearing you talk about this, I think there's such a clear line and such a specific culture, like my sense of Jamaica and the people there and from there, there's a clear culture. There are things like in our world that like, oh yeah, that's a Jamaica thing.

Like you say in boat, we're talking about in a second, right? But I'm like Eastern European, you know, like from Russia, Ukraine, like somewhere, like something that changed hands like five times. And so I feel like, you know, it's like general, like general Eastern European people is like my heritage. And so it's like maybe it's kind of Germanic,

maybe it's kind of Russian, but it's like this kind of mishmash of, you know what I think of when I think of my family, you know, a hundred or 200 years ago. I think of like some, there's some people cowering in a cold area. It's snowing, they're like getting soup somewhere. Right. But it's very general.

Have these stories come from your family at all? Like as your mother sat you down to be like, you know. No, but I know stories about my family, but they're like very hyper-specific. Right. And they don't tell me anything about like, my culture is like because I was raised Jewish. And because like being Jewish supersedes like origins,

like in a lot of ways, Jewish peopleedes like origins, like in a lot of ways, Jewish people are like, oh, you're from, like you're from Japan and you're from Russia, but like you're both Jewish. So it's like Sephardic, Ashkenazi Ethiopian, that's it. Yeah, you're like, and as far as I can tell, and I don't know, I've never met an Ethiopian Jew. The thing that is the connective tissue,

sorry, I didn't say I'd talk about myself, but it's like really like an East Coast thing. Right. Like it's like, you know, East Coast Jews. Okay. You know what I'm saying? I don't. I don't.

I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't.

I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. Right. Side fell is like the, you know, it's like, oh yeah, your family is all like side fells. Okay. I mean, anxiety, written, like Woody Allen. Woody Allen. I don't say Woody Allen because he's a rapist.

Woody Allen. Oh. A legend. A legend. A legend. A legend. We don't have a legend. Anything's possible.

I'll be sure his daughter accused him in the New York Times, but definitely. No, he's a very talented director. It's too bad about his Ray Pistory and weird child molestation and slasher abuse. But we all make mistakes, you know? I guess. The important thing is that he's a Jew. Okay.

So let's bring this back to Jamaica. And yeah, so what I'm saying is like, so what I'm saying is like Jamaica feels like it's got, like I can form in my mind a picture of like what the kind of like where that line is. Right, which is oftentimes informed by things like, you know, colonialism and things that are generally considered pre-taxable.

Not a perfect line. Not a perfect line at all. No, I got that. I think that. You don't have any Woody Islands. I don't know. I mean, there are some, I don't know, I'm not even gonna go there.

Yeah. There's definitely like a through line, I mean, there are some, I don't know, I'm not even gonna go there. Yeah. There's definitely like a through line, I guess, of like Jamaican culture and how Americans perceive that culture for sure, like any place. Right. And my connection to it happened to be pretty isolated for the most part. Like I got all of my understanding of Jamaica

from my family, my direct family. I didn't really interrogate or investigate much beyond that as a child. And a lot of it was through food. Some of it was through language and just the way that they talked around the house. I never picked up a Patoa accent at all. I didn't pick up any real accent.

I think you could probably say, I just sound like a, I don't know, standard. I don't wanna say standard, that's terrible. She's a person. It's like a person, you know. A human. Yeah, my mom was an actress, so she kind of, you know, you don't have any discernible accent. No discernible accents. Yeah, so I had a Jamaican family living in Southside, Jamaica,

Queens, New York with a ton of culture and a ton of like different places. I never came out with anything discernible from that. So I think that is actually kind of a touchstone to the fact that I never really internalized or ingested a lot of the culture that was around me as a kid. And there was this intense yearning when I got to around like 2021 coming out of college

that I really wanted to reconnect with it. And so a lot of that was through my grandmother, after my grandfather passed, I kind of felt this fire under my ass. It was just like, there's so much rich culture that you don't understand that's connected to your family and to your friends and people who you grew up with that you've never really tried to figure out

and you probably should do that now. So I started to reconnect with the food first. Like I found my Jamaican spots in New York that I wanted to go to. My friends came with me and I just kind of started unpack the pieces that I didn't really understand at first. So I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. And I think that I've been really fortunate to have friends who still let me bask in and own the culture that I don't know too much about. Right.

Even though I don't have, like, even though in my opinion, I don't have a ton of claim to it because I don't feel, I kind of feel like a poser sometimes and just like, I'm Jamaican American or whatever you want to call me, but I don't really know a lot of these things. I'm still getting to know myself. I mean, I think, but you have a, but I think you've got a through line, like in a path to discover it. And I'm actually like,

it just sounds kind of wonderful. Like, wouldn't an amazing thing to be able to do? And I'm sure, look, I'm sure if I put any effort in whatsoever, I could do the same thing. But like, we're kind of an amazing thing to do is to go back and look and say, was all this kind of undiscovered for you at least, undiscovered culture and undiscovered.

There's a whole, I mean, it's a food obviously is a big piece of it, but there's so many other pieces, right? And that's just yours to uncover and own. Like you have absolutely rightful ownership to it once you know about it and understand it. I'm sure for me there's some parallel, but I'm too lazy. We're tired to do it.

So anyhow, getting back to weed. Right, all right, here we go. There's like actually no connection here, except that like weed is, I mean, I do think like weed and Jamaica have a very special relationship, but you were telling earlier at the office we were talking about, I'm trying to think of how we got on the topic, actually.

I don't remember, but you said you were gonna go see cats. Right, stone. Yes. And, oh my. My first thought was, first of all, I've never seen cats. I mean, I've seen, I've seen, it's on YouTube. I've seen like a lot of cats, you know what I mean? I've heard it.

And I've seen like, you know, clips from it, or like, just like the animal in general. I've never seen a cat before. What, I am actually allergic to cats. So the musical, weirdly, but not the actual animal. Right. So you're gonna go see cats and you're gonna get stoned allegedly.

Allegedly. But now, and I said, are you gonna, like, eat, is it like an edible situation? Because you could like take some in with you. Right. Or some candies or something. I don't know. I don't know.

And to whatever theater is housing cats right now, I just want to say that this is not going to happen. And, uh, no, no, no, no, this guy, you don't have to worry about it. You see Aaron Edwards on a ticket somewhere. He's not high. Definitely not. And won't ever be high. and uh... yeah no no no this guy you don't worry about you see air net words on a ticket somewhere he's not high definitely not and won't ever be high so you don't worry about him

um... ryan can you tell us where the cats currently playing in new york that's probably something the ill-time in theater okay you see have right answer like we were discussing for not knowing that and he's gonna say the music box but i don't know the nil's time in, it's been playing there for how many years, 30 years? No, it's a revival.

It's a revival. It's a revival. Okay. And I think, I have to say, so we started talking about the office and it was like, this sounds like an amazing idea. We should take the entire outline crew. Yeah.

And I need through the reels. And I think, and I think, like I would enjoy cats, stone, like it would be one of the reels. And I think, and I think, like, I would enjoy cats stoned, like, it would be one of the best experiences. Right. I think that the impetus behind this is that cats is, I mean, I feel like it's pretty safe to say that it's a fairly terrible musical. Is it? What?

The lyrics are bad. Wait, is that true because it's considered to be one of the greatest musicals of all time? I would say in my opinion, the music is really good, the emotions are good, but occasionally you're like people are dressed as cats, and also the lyrics are really laughable, so you have a lot more of those people are dressed as cats. Can you give an example of a laughable lyric in cats? Any money?

Well, like, jellical dogs. What? What? What? Are you going to read some? The first song is the first song is jellicle dogs. What? What are you gonna read, Sam? The first song is the first song is Jellicle Cats, right? Sorry, yeah. The first song is Jellicle Cats and I will read you the lyrics to it,

which all of this is based, by the way, on T.S. Eliot, Picats poems. The, I think it's, didn't he do a, a book of peculiar cats? Yes, that is what it's based on. Yeah, yeah. So it's, um, Jellicle Cats and Policle Dogs. And it's like, are you so blind, you're born?

Can you see in the dark, dare you look at a king? Would you sit on his throne? Can you say of your bite that it's worse than your bark? Are you the cock of the walk when you're walking alone? Because Jellicle Cats are, and Jellicle Cats do. Jellicle Cats do, and Jellicle Cats would. and jellicle cats do, and jellicle cats would. I don't know, I'm sorry, these lyrics sound amazing. So, the higher you get, the better they will be.

Yeah, they sound really good right now. Exactly. I've only had a small amount of odd cuts, so I have to say I'm odd. But like memories, like that's a beautiful moment, but a moment later you're like, and they're all just as cats. I don't know, what's the big deal?

See, my big thing about cats and why I think it's terrible. It's not necessarily the work itself. It's just thinking about, this musical came out in what, like, 1986 or something? Oh, no, like 1980. 1980. 1980. So there was a lot going on in the world in 1980.

By 1986, it was the most popular, Broadway musical that had ever existed. Well, it started in London and then it moved to Broadway. You know, I think that's the only thing. Not Broadway, you know. But so there's so much happening in the world, I feel like there's a lot of important stories to tell. Like right now, you mean?

In general, especially the 80s, there's a lot of important stories to tell. And I just get infuriated when I think the fact that Andrew Lloyd Webber was like, let me look at the scope of everything happening in the world right now. Yeah, he was like, around and talking, no, it was going on 1980. I mean, it was like, it was like Nixon. Nixon had just left off as he resigned because he was the most corrupt president ever.

Yeah, he, why wasn't he like, we should do a Nixon musical. They're a Nixon musical about AIDS set to the music of the 50s, because it's the 80s and we're gonna pretend in the 50s. In 1980, AIDS was not a thing. There is a Nixon musical. Yeah, so no, it wasn't like a thing. Yeah, well, because, you know, yeah, because people were so...

People were so... I understand people were suppressing it and denying it and all that. Well, what a breakthrough it would have been to write a musical about it. I mean, we did. Somebody did, it only took them 25 years. But yeah, so I don't know, I just get angry

about what I think about he's like sitting down and it's like, I'm just gonna write a musical, it's gonna be about cats. And it's just, Hey, you're Androly Weber in person. That's my Androly Weber in person. Oh, because you would rather have him have started school of rock back then.

It's true though it's like that height of the Iraq war is just so frivolous the world need right now what about a jack black vehicle right because that's where school of rock comes from yeah that's their concerns the jack black but weirdly the other one about glam about glam metal is a Broadway musical they became a movie correct glam rock of ages or school of rock school of rock was a movieically became a movie, correct? Glamour. Rock of Ages. Or school of rock. The school of rock was a movie that became a musical. Right.

Rock of Ages. Rock of Ages. They said get Alec Baldwin and this will sell. Get Tom Cruise. Did you just have a movie already? No, no. No. It was a musical.

It was a movie. And Tom Cruise is in it. Okay. Who I love. The cruise missile. The cruise missile I love. The Cruise Missile. The Cruise Missile. No, I'm just saying, it's just like, there's not a real anger that I have toward this. It's just, and I understand putting on a frivolous musical because times are tough and...

Just wanna... You gotta eat. Anyway, I feel like the best way that I can dignify cats is by going under the influence of several substances. I mean, I'm probably gonna be a little rum. Just, you know, a little cocktail. Please let me come to cats with you. I mean, if you really want to. Actually, I kind of don't because I hate crowds,

but like everything else sounds great about it. Right. The only crowds you really have to interact with at the theater is really just when you're lining up and when you're leaving, though. So it's not like a music festival, it's like you are aware of the crowd all the time. I need to get like an end seat so I can get out quickly if necessary. An aisle seat? An aisle seat, thank you. So they're called. Is that the official name? You know, we're gonna take a quick break and then we're gonna come back and we're gonna talk about more about cats I think probably for another 45 minutes straight.

Great. Welcome to Cats Cats. No. Anyhow, we'll be right back with Aaron Emerson. This week's episode is brought to you by Earth Class Mail. Earth Class Mail moves your snail mail to the cloud, which is where you want it really. Given you instant access 24-7, it integrates with the tools and services you use every day. It's insane that we've moved everything we do for business over to the digital world, but still need to pick up, sort, and manage physical mail.

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Just use your city card with Android Pay at the register. Get in, get it, get going. Download the Android Pay app on Google Play or visit city.com slash Android Pay to get started. Android Pay is available for eligible city consumer credit and debit cards. We're back with Aaron Edwards. We were talking about cats and weed. And now I want to talk, we actually were talking a lot about music, the arts, feelings. I want to talk about Frank Ocean. Okay.

You've not heard the new Frank, we heard him this earlier too. All these conversations are based off of earlier conversations that we had at the time. Right. You've not heard the new Frank Ocean record. I have not heard Frank Ocean's album. A lot of people are talking about Frank Ocean. I mean, when Frank Ocean's record dropped, I think that's how the kids are saying it

these days dropped, people could not stop writing about the fact that the record had dropped. I'm sorry, his visual album. But now there's an actual regular non-visual album, right, called Blonde. And I'm surprised because I feel like you are varied ahead of the curve when it comes to pop culture. So the fact that you haven't listened to it has surprised it. And frankly, a little upsetting to me.

Can you explain that? I can't explain this. One. One, I hate Frank Ocean. One, well there's a number here. I'm not gonna number this. There's a lot of interesting discussion happening right now around the fact that our pop artists

and our most mainstream musical talents have flipped the script on digital releases. And many people attribute this to Beyoncé, obviously, with her self-titled album, where all of us just sit in shackles wondering when albums are going to be released. We just like are up until God awful hours and a little night. We have no control over things. Back of the day, people used to say, I'm going to release an album on this day. You can expect to see it then, can prepare yourself emotionally, can make sure you're in the right place to buy it, right space to listen to it in the right frame of reference or frame of mind to experience it.

But now I feel like there's just no script to any of this. It's just surprise releases left and right. And this is very emotionally taxing for so many people, including myself, especially someone who works in news and a lot of my job, not now, but before, involved covering these things or sending push alerts when they went live or just trying

to anticipate this ethereal moment to when something would just drop. Right. What kind of badlam was it? I mean, I can only imagine it buzzfeed when like Beyonce's record came out. Right. Like, was it just everybody was losing their fucking shit? I wasn't at work when it came out. Oh, where were you?

I was at home. It was a, It was a weekday, I believe. And it was at 9 p.m. Eastern time. Yeah, I think so. And she actually, she kind of gave us a warning. Like the time that it was gonna go on HBO was announced a few days before it actually came out. We didn't know it was gonna be the full album. We just knew she was gonna put something on HBO

and that it was gonna be some sort of visual project. Some people speculated that it would be the album after and I figured it would be so I was not work. But that was still kind of a fair warning in advance. At the speed of like, or the pace of people who are consuming things online. It's like give you a few days in advance, get yourself ready, get your house in order. The audience is about to drop. Just get done with all the chores that you have to do.

Right, right. Yeah. Pretty your maker, all that kind of stuff. And, but yeah, so Frank, there were just lies, lies, lies, lies, left and right. No one knew when it would come out. It was like two weeks. It was being teased.

It was being teased, but then last year actually was when he originally said, or didn't actually say, put a innocuous Tumblr post up, I think, is what spurred people thinking he was gonna come out saying, I think I had a date on it or something, I'm not sure it really happened. People had the assumption that it was gonna come out in July 2015, it didn't, there was a running joke

that it was like, July was not gonna end until Frank Ocean's album dropped. So like 20 days later, they're like happy July was not gonna end until Frank Ocean's album dropped. So like 20 days later, they're like happy July 51st. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so I haven't listened to the album because I honestly was just not really totally prepared for it.

Like I knew it was gonna come at some point. Well they released it was like on a Saturday night. Right, there was an endless video. The visual album part. It was an idea that I kind of hate. Which I didn't watch either. I just time to watch a visual album. Right, I mean, you can make time if you know what you're making time for.

And maybe if somebody gives you some, it's like a music video though, where it was like this worked for Thriller and it worked for Beyonce. It works for a few kinds of records. Thriller wasn't a visual album. Thriller wasn't a one long video. Like Thr track was in a visual album, through the music one long video. Like Thriller.

But I mean like, like the medium, I feel like it's like that medium might work for a specific album but does everybody need a music video? Does every album need to be a visual album? No, I mean, I hope not. I don't think so. But now the trend is gonna be like a visual album. I think the, I don't know about that.

It just, yeah. I don't think so. I think that it takes a lot of money to do that. And I think the, I don't know about that, just yeah. I don't know. I think that it takes a lot of money to do that. And I think there's a handful of artists who can do something like that in a good way. And I think Lady Gaga attempted this with Art Pop. She tried to put out like a visual album of sorts, more like a thriller, extended video,

with three or four songs and like, it's not for everybody, I would say. It's not for everyone, it's for you. Art pop. That's very good. Art pop, that's the record of hers that didn't do very well, right? I love that record. I do too. I love that record.

I love that song. I love that record. Art pop. Art pop, do you have favorite? Art record? My favorite. Really? I don't know the song.

I really like sex dreams. Sex dreams. Sex dreams. You never heard it. You'll mix in sex dreams here so the listener can experience a little bit of sex dreams. Yeah, but yes, so Frank, I haven't listened to it yet because I really, I think it's okay to not experience things at the same time that everyone else does. I totally agree. But I think that this culture of like surprise releases makes people feel very anxious about not experiencing it at the same time.

And Frank is the kind of artist who I think he puts out work that really requires a lot of attention. Like you really want to sit down and experience it. Like, it's not, you know, a pop. No, it is a pop record. And actually, the record is very subtle. I mean, it's not at all like, I would not think there's a single thing on there

that could be considered like a hit. In terms of like pop music. Yeah, and Frank, I mean, for me personally, Frank is really important to me because he represents a lot of things that I feel are lacking in music and just in representation in general. Like I've been waiting to hear from someone at his level who is exploring his queerness, trying to identify himself and figure out where he sits and the grand scheme of things

or not. Yeah. identify himself and figure out where he sits and the grand scheme of things or not. And music that is trying to navigate those things to me is really important to me. And I think that I really want to give it time and like specific space. Yeah. And that time and space was not there when it came out. No, it's like I'm going to hold off on this. It's true. Like actually, I mean to that point, I mean it's really, actually, this is a really, like you're making me realize something that I couldn't, I wasn't able to quite formulate,

which is like, on a Saturday night, in the middle of everything else that everybody's doing to like, have this record appear, like, the visual album appear. Excuse me. And then, like, have to be expected to like, respond to it in some way, have to act on and listen to it or whatever, it was really daunting. And even now that the record, that the proper audio version of it is available,

it's like, I haven't been able to give it. I've listened to it a couple of times in the car, but not everybody's driving in the car, not everybody's got the chance to do that. That's like two, basically, if you listen to it two times, it's like two solid hours, it's a long record. Right.

And it kind of sucks, like it kind of sucks as an experience. Like you do wanna be able to give it the time and attention that like a proper piece of art deserves, and I haven't been able to do that at all. And I assume like for a lot of people, it's been the same thing. And, like, in our business,

the expectation is as soon as it happens, you've gotta have a take on response, a route to use. Well, I was gonna say, isn't it, like, a vent fatigue where it's like every superhero movie, every award show, the Olympics, we all have to have things to say, and then Donald Trump does something, and then this album totally drops, and then another album drops over here.

And it's like, when Su suicide squared came out a month ago, I saw it yesterday because I was like, I just, I wanna see this movie and hate it myself or like it myself. Hate it on your own time. Yeah. I don't know if this is like something I can say, I just definitely, I can't say definitively,

but what I hope is happening is that more people are realizing this, is that you can take your time when these things come out and that you don't have to be a part of the conversation right away. I don't want to use this as a promo for the outline. But I will say, like, this feeling is like a major driver to me of wanting to do something different.

Like, I just think, this isn't real. It's not real. Like, that feeling that you have, where everything's that you have, where like everything's pushing you forward, pushing you towards something, like it doesn't always have to be that way. Like the stuff that people make is actually

valueless for the most part. Like there's like 90% valueless shit, like it just is not good. It isn't meaningful, it isn't worth your time. But you feel like, and I mean like not the record itself, but like the reactions to it and people talking about it and people having their like, takes on it like, vulture being like, well, here's how Frank Ocean appropriated white culture and it's like, get the fuck out of my face. Like, you've, it's been 24 hours.

You could not have formed as sophisticated as a thesis as you think you have on this thing. And it's like, let it breathe. And we don't get a chance to let shit breathe. And I think that I'm not saying things should be slow, but I do feel like there's like a time in a place. And I actually, hearing you talk about this and like think it through, to me makes me feel like I've cheated myself in some way on that record. Because I've listened to it in bits and pieces

and I've listened to it like while distracted and I've tried to like cram it in to like a busy life. And now I feel like, and then there's songs on it that I think are excellent, very excellent, but I don't know that I've taken in the whole thing. And good art deserves to be taken in fully. I think it deserves to be taken in fully. I think it's okay for it to be taken in different contexts.

So even though you listen to it the first time and a busy intersection or while you're driving or something like that, I don't think that precludes or takes away the possibility for you to experience it again in a different way. Thank you. So you have enruated totally. Right, so I don't think it's been out.

It's kind of bullshit. I think your strategy is actually right. Like, and actually it's annoying to me to think about this. It's also this thing, like do you subscribe to Apple Music? I don't. Okay, so how are you gonna listen to it? I will make a decision. What's the decision in the video?

I'm gonna, well I think I have a 30 day trial that I can opt into. Oh really? Okay, this is insane. Like I was, I think I have a 30 day trial that I can opt in. Oh really? Okay, this is insane. I was actually the first thing my first thought was, oh, it's an Apple music exclusive. That's really awesome because it's like some weird game that these companies are playing with. It used to be like, oh, a record's out.

You can go to the store and buy it. You can listen to it on vinyl. You can buy a CD, whatever. Now it's like, oh, you have to subscribe to a service forever to listen to it on vinyl, you can buy a CD, whatever. Now it's like, oh, you have to subscribe to a service forever to listen to this one record. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure Spotify will eventually get it. I think in two weeks. In two weeks. Yeah. Maybe in two weeks, I'm going to move to experience some black queer art. My favorite thing is looking up lemonade on Spotify and looking at their, or the looking at their messages on there. I think it still says we don't have the odds he's

lemonade and we're working on it. So lemonade was released on title, right? Yes. Well, it was on HBO first. Right. And then he was watching. And it was on title as a full. Here's what I did. I, because I had already subscribed to title and then unsubscribed when Kanye released his record on everything else. I'm like, this is bullshit. I bootleg the Beyonce record. Really? Yeah, because it was like, I'm not gonna subscribe to this service to hear the record. I listened to it a couple times. I'm like, this is some good tracks on here, but I don't know, I don't want to dis-beyond say, but it was okay. Right, Parkwood's gonna be right on your ass for this.

Come at me. But it's fun, I'm ready. It's all over your Instagram. Hi, that's like the beehive is gonna fuck it. Yeah, I'm reached. But anyhow, I'm just saying like it's a bullshit situation for people. I mean, can you even buy the record?

I think so. I think there's like a zen in the even buy the... Oh, no, the Amy thing about using it blonde? Blonde. Or do I have to eliminate? No, no, no, you eliminate. Like, I assume like you could have bought it. I could you have bought it.

I don't know that during the title exclusive, you could buy the record on iTunes. I don't think you could. No, no, no, for a while you couldn't. Right, so it was like, what are you gonna do? You're gonna subscribe to this thing forever, or just what? Well, I think they want you to be like,

Netflix and Hulu and be like, I buy all of them, even though that's for T.O. Yeah, so I actually do, and it's a horrendous situation. Yeah, it's spending so much money on streaming services, it's crazy. I do think there will be some sort of like reckoning. Yeah, there's gonna be reckoning. I think people are gonna be like, fuck this,

and they're gonna it's like back away from it. Or Apple will just buy up. Well, they can only buy so many things, and that's also monopoly, which is basically illegal, but the long and short of it is you haven't listened to the record. I have not listened to the record. And you're gonna find the right time to listen to it,

which are like, I'm kind of an out jealous of. It's also kind of, like part of this is kind of bullshit too. It's like, I'm not gonna know, this is not gonna be some magical, like very novice thing that comes on. It's like, time to listen. I hope that happens. Maybe that'll be a guiding light that I need,

but I don't know, part of it's bullshit, part of it is, you know, a feeling, part of it is just, I have free time right now and I'm in a mood. I have a general sense of what this album might contain. Is any of that driven by the fact that like, to go get it is a chore? Yes. Like if it was on Spotify, you just Spotify?

I guess Spotify. So if it was on Spotify right now, do you think you might have listened to it already? Definitely. So, okay, so that's fucking crazy. Right, so these's fucking crazy. So these streaming services are kind of dictating how my... Yeah, I mean, exactly.

The weird thing is that actually your habits have changed because of the way the stuff has been released. Everything's connected. Feelings are not limited to just our own interpersonal ideas of feelings. It's like it's tech, too. They're really not. I will say this about the record. This will be my quick review of feelings. It's like, it's tech too. They're really not. Yeah. I will say this about the record. Just this will be my quick review of it.

All right. It is. Don't say it's not good or something like that. That's just like, no. No, it's, I'm not going to say that. Okay. I'm going to say it is, I mean, you can't say that if you want to. No, I mean, but to the point that you were, that you were making earlier about queerness

and blackness and like the, I think, I think, I think you made a point about that. It is not like a record that has been out ever before. In my opinion, like listening to it, I'm just music, it is so unlike other pieces of, and I wasn't that big of a fan of his last record. Like I wasn't like, yeah, I didn't love it, but this record is just like, I don't know if it's good or bad. I mean, I think it's good. I don't know what like a music critic would say about it, but I think it's like also just huge as a thought,

like as a record. I mean, I don't wanna like, I know when people are like, well, you gotta see this movie, it's also just huge as a thought, as a record. I don't want to like, I know when people are like, well, you've got to see this movie, it's so amazing. And then you see it. No, I feel like I think I get where you're getting it. I mean, there is a point in a lot of artist careers too, right, where you kind of sense that they're getting a lot more agency over their own work to a degree.

Like, there's a lot of risk with a new artist coming out and releasing an album. And there's some scripts and some standard things they try to follow at the beginning. And then as they develop, they get a little bit weirder maybe with it. This is why anti is like my favorite reanna record because people love anti. I've taught you a lot of people who love anti. Yeah, because it's the first one that I really felt like I got a sense of her input. Not that the other records did not have that, but that was just so much I felt of her.

And I could be totally wrong, and then she's a lunatic puppet and doesn't have a natural element of it. So you feel like that's the influence of Dance Pop falling away too, that constructed sort of fabricated? It's a banger for every song. This is definitely way fewer. I mean, the ecstasy has every song. There's definitely way fewer. I mean, the ecstasy has worn off.

Let's put it that way. I feel like in terms of music right now, like if we were at a period where everybody was like, it was all about like a club track, I think that has gone away. But this record's like, it's like, I feel like even for a culture that has begun to actually accept like, a new world like has thought of like, I feel like even for a culture that has begun to actually accept like a new world,

like as thought of like people's sexuality as more much more diverse than we have traditionally perceived it, I think the record's challenging for people. I feel like it's like, yeah, this is like a human being with like human emotions that are not do not sink up to yours, like speaking very openly and clearly about it. I don't wanna get too deep on this one, like my record review is like a music. It really is, it's got very, but it is like, I just don't think

there's a lot of music like this, you know? Where it's raw, it's just very raw. Not a lot of mainstream music. No, not to sound like the indie kid or whatever. No, but I don't mean. No, but I think for like a major release where people are freaking out about it on Twitter. Right, right.

And there's like people lining up at stores to get his zine. Right. Okay, this is my favorite thing. I just remember the thing I wanted to say. Yes. His mom, I guess, tweeted that I think this happened. I saw this like third hand somewhere. I've been so disconnected from. Okay, yeah, I don't know. I saw this like third hand somewhere. I've been so disconnected from.

Okay, yeah, I don't, I'm like kind of disconnected too, but that she was like, just for all the people who are selling these zines on eBay for $100, like you're ridiculous, just wait. I think they're gonna do like a wide release of the zine. Which I'm excited about because I wanted to get a copy of his zine and you can't, no one, they're like, you want to get that copy of his scene and you can't know when they're like you want to get that $1,000 McDonald's poem in person, but it's ridiculous.

I was at a party this weekend where a friend of mine did a live recitation of the McDonald's Kanye poem. Really? And it was deeply moving. Got McDonald's is so relevant right now. It's, I mean, McDonald's is always relevant. No, but it's like become, McDonald's is like back. Did McDonald's is so relevant right now. It's, I mean, McDonald's is always relevant. No, but it's like become, McDonald's is like back. Did McDonald's leave?

Yeah, it was really, it was in trouble, but now with that all day breakfast and Kanye's poem. Yeah, God. I don't know. Anyhow, all right, let's talk about, it's about Gawker. Sure. We're gonna barrel through a few items here.

All right, yeah, this barrel. Gawker. Gawker. Well, so this is through a few items here. All right, yeah, this barrel. Gawker. Gawker. Well, so this is going to be on Tuesday. Okay. So today, where I'm, this is Monday. Right.

It is, right? So it'll be up tomorrow. Yeah, tomorrow. Wow. Yeah, that's true. That's true, right? Yeah. So Gawker's done now.

It's over. Gawker is done. How does it make you feel? It makes me feel many feelings, but the primary one is that it is really, really terrifying that any of this went down the way that it went down. Like I think that the arguments about gochers content or the things that they focused on,

things that they cover the way they cover them, notwithstanding, it is a troubling time when a billionaire can fund a case that essentially kills a media company. It's terrifying. Like whichever way you try to spin it, that's just not something that I think should happen. I agree, I mean, I actually, it's funny, I mean,

I think about it, I mean, starting a new media company. I think about all the time, I'm like, you know, we're gonna tell hopefully big, brazen, like original stories, and there's no doubt that this is like a bad precedent for people who give a shit about, like telling true stories. I mean, gocker's not perfect, was not perfect.

By no words, by no words. By any measure. But it feels like we've lost something. It's actually kind of hard to think about like gocker not being around. It is, yeah. I had a meltdown last night because I was just like, this is tone pleasing, like we're not allowed to be mean,

we're not allowed to dislike things. We're not allowed to dislike things. Like, everything you know is relentless earnestness. Like, we're all fans of everything in supporting everybody. And I was like, I just feel like Gawker was a place where you could go on there and someone would be like, this is fucking stupid. Like, you know what, as much as people give him shit for it, I like Hamilton Nolan's JoBonnie piece.

Like, that's so funny that he's just like, fuck JoBonnie yogurt, it's gross. That's a great piece. Hamilton Nolan wrote about Chobani. I, this is the first time hearing about this myself. Yeah. He wrote like, Fia's the only good yogurt. Chobani yogurt is the best.

And it's the best. It is the best. It's like 3000 words on it. Fia is the best. And not a... Chobani is bullshit, I agree with that. Yogurt is not on the Jamaican palette of foods. So that's reconnecting with the question.

There's a Jamaican yogurt, because I feel like that could be- Sure, there is. I feel like that could be up very hot. There's Icelandic yogurt. I'm taking my time. There's starting with meats. Icelandic, Greek, French.

Okay, there's some Jamaican yogurt in there. There probably is. I'm really, really sorry if I'm not representing my people. I know what I think it's okay. I don't know you have to know about every possible food that has come out of Jamaica. And also, yogurt's not very special. I don't know you have to know about every possible food that has come out of Jamaica. And also, yogurt's not very special. It isn't.

It's not like, oh, we own. It's like the Jamaican's own yogurt. If they make it. Right. Yogurt is very oblong. I don't want to get into that though. All right, speaking of Jamaica, good segue. You're saying bolt.

You're saying that right? You're saying bolt. Hahaha. Let's do talk about the Olympics for a second. Okay. Or did you watch it at all? Let's do talk about the Olympics for a second. Or did you watch it at all? I watched two races at a bar, and then I watched some of Simone Biles' routines,

and that was it. I mean, I don't know. I don't wanna be the jerk. Please. No, I don't wanna be the bad guy. I'll be the jerk. Why are there so many kinds of swimming? It's all stupid, blah, blah, blah. I do I don't want to be the bad guy. I'll be the jerk. Why are there so many kinds of swimming? It's all stupid.

Well, I do think it's kind of like, I don't know, I'm happy that these Olympians are good at doing sports, but I have to say, like, I know people cheer it on and make some feel good and everything, but I just feel nothing. I feel nothing about the event. Because once every four years,

for two weeks we pretend like discus is like a big deal. No, but I mean, we say America won the US won all these medals and it's like, hi. Do you feel a very strong sense of national pride, Josh? I mean, I love America. Do you love America? I do. I used to. Do you not? No, I, okay. Hello. Hello.

Because I'm just right now. Okay, Aaron, I was, I- It doesn't love America. Listen, I used to go around in college and as like a form of satire, I would pretend like I was interrogating people about their love of America, like a cheerleader kind of.

Okay. I forget who it was based off of, but there was like a friend know I had in high school who was just like really intensely loved America. And so I decided to just like parody her for a few weeks. Just go on. And America love you.

Yeah, so I just go around being like, I don't know Becky, I love America. I'm not sure if you do though. Like, and- And your friends say shit like that? No, no, no, no, no, no, no one said anything like that. I was just feeling like I was like feeling goofy a few weeks. And so I just interject that in all my conversations with my friends

and just like see if they loved America and how much they loved America. I love America. See the thing about the statement I love America is that it's something you can corner people into saying yes or no to without appreciating the complexities that our country brings with its name. I can, but I can, I can list reasons why I love America.

Yeah. Well, it's just, number one, it's just so you can get any kind of food here. Number two, Eagles. That's about it. That was a fact answer.

Number one is, I do think it's like, you know, when you travel, you're like, fuck, I just wanna get some, like, I just wanna get some Indian food or whatever. And it's like, nope, sorry, you're like, wherever you are, you're not getting any Indian food right now. Like there are places in India, in which case, fucking killer Indian food. Right.

But I mean, for all of our flaws and there are many, you know, it's, this is a kind of an incredible country. It is kind of incredible. The people here, like, I mean, you know, we could be fixated on Trump, like Trump and his, whatever, his supporters, but like, there are way more people who are not Trump and his supporters, you know, and like, there are way more people who want good things and are like actually working on good things. I don't know. I mean, I think America is a cool country. I think it is like kind of a weird, mishmash of like, it is a kind of clusterfuck,

and that's what makes it great. It's an experiment. Yeah, no, it's definitely an experiment, and you definitely, if you go to Texas, you will see just how volatile the experiment is. It's an experimental experiment, that shit is. No, I mean, you had Florida for a couple of days, and have you seen Hannity? He's talking about this shit. I thought you were just gonna for a couple of days. And have you seen Hannity?

He's talking about this shit. I thought you were just saying, have you seen Hamilton? Have you seen Hamilton? They're talking about America. We're doing it. Eight times a week. Okay, I haven't seen Hamilton.

Are we gonna get into this now? Why not? Let's just close it out with Hamilton. Yeah, that's a good closer, I feel like. You haven't seen Hamilton yet. I have not seen it, but I have listened to most of the soundtrack. I feel like whenever I meet a white person who hasn't seen Hamilton, I'm just like,

why are you caching in? Wow. Why aren't you trying? You know what? I've seen Hamilton twice. I'm very white. Is it good? It is very good. Should I see it?

You should definitely see it. No, now that the Lin-Manuel is out, I don't know if I want to... The work is still the work. That's true. Songs are very catchy. Right. Have you listened to the cast album? I have. What did you think? Most of it. Right. Have you listened to the cast albums? I have.

What did you think? Most of it. I think it's great, but I wish I was watching this. I'm like, there's definitely something going on that I should be seeing. Yeah. That's my feeling. Whenever you get the chance to, if you have a choice, should I go to see Hamilton or not? You should.

I mean, I don't get out a lot. You know? Right. It's kind of like home work, work, home, like that's pretty much it. Yeah. I'm not like, there's all this stuff happening in between. I mean like cats is definitely like the first priority. Cats is the last. I'm trying to think of the last Broadway musical I saw.

You should go see the color purple. That would really blow the lid off a lot of things. How'd you think? I'd be like, I need to cry to crack my brain out, but I'm not sure what's good. No, I mean, I'm sure it's good. You know what I did see years ago, not a musical. I saw a hamlet with Patrick Stewart.

Oh, I think Hamlet. Oh, my back, my back, my back, that's what it was. Yeah. Did you know that you did recording of that? It's like a PBS, like a movie of ours? Yes, it's weird. It is very weird. It's very weird. I love that production so much. Have you did you see it? I saw the movie in the theater. No, no, no, really good. Who played Lady Macbeth? Kate Fleetwood.

Kate Fleetwood, who also makes a very stunning but short cameo and lame is a robber movie related to Mick Fleetwood. Can we get a, can we get... We would, yeah, Mick Fleetwood from Fleetwood Mac. Can we just get a, can you just Google that real quick? I just wanna know. This is where I don't have any frame of reference. You don't know Fleetwood Mac? I mean, no.

How do you feel about extremely white music from the 70s? I don't know. Suddenly I'm like blind and deaf and I can't. I would say Fleetwood Mac is like, next to the Eagles is probably like the perfect avatar for white music. I love fluid Mac. Okay.

No, they're great. I want you to tell your story. Who would do it? What? What story is that? The story of white music in the same place. I don't know. I'm from Ukraine.

Listen, the Ukrainians are not white. You need to place yourself more. I don't, I'm just what I'm saying. Going back to the conversation about Jamaica, I donians are not white. You need to place yourself more. I'm just what I'm saying, going back to the conversation about Jamaica, I don't have a thread. You use ancestry.com or something. You know what, actually, Laura is an insane genealogist. Like she knows my entire family history. She can find anybody's family history.

She's so good at it. That's it, that's the end of the story. Yeah. All right, I think we gotta wrap up. Aaron, thank you for doing this. Of course, thank you for having me. I really have enjoyed this. This was really fun.

Oh, I really say I wanted to ask you something. Yeah. What's your favorite color? Hmm. Wow. I always say blue. Is it blue? I don't think so. I think I say it because it's always been the answer that I've given since I was like 10.

What's really your answer? Probably black. Wow. What's really your answer? Probably black. Wow. What is your favorite movie? What dreams may come, the Robin Williams. Really? Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. That's a depressing movie. Yeah, I saw it. I read Dante's Inferno around the time that I watched that movie as a kid and I really loved the imagery of hell. Okay, I'm just saying. And finally, what is your favorite song? My favorite song?

Oh my gosh. That's really difficult. I mean, right now, in this very moment, I'm sure why not. This is going to sound super weird. No. I've been listening to Mozart's Requiem a lot recently because I sang it in high school. Mozart's Requiem.

And I've been connecting to a lot. So Dominique Sue, which is one of the movements of Mozart's Requiem, I've literally been writing this subway back and forth listening to it constantly. Is that a very upbeat? Yes. It is? It's upbeat.

Yeah. I don't know it, so. We can drop in a clip like we do about... We have a clip of... ...Sex Dreams. Yeah. ...Sex Dreams. We love Serenade.

We love the song. It's a thing for us. Sex dreams. Notes are... Yeah, it all makes sense. Anyhow, thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it. And I'll see you tomorrow.

I'll see you at work at the office. Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more tomorrow. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best. Although I understand that your family is an exclusive on Apple Music, and there's no telling when they'll be released. Just modify. Thanks again for listening. If you've got an extra minute, please go to podcast survey.net to take a very short anonymous survey about today's episode. It would be a big help to

the show, and I'd appreciate it personally. Just go to podcast survey.net for a quick survey to help the show. would be a big help to the show, and I'd appreciate it personally. Just go to podcast survey.net for a quick survey to help the show.