Tomorrow - Episode 81: How Bad McKay Coppins Will Look

Episode Date: February 8, 2017

"McKay Coppins & Joshua Topolsky dissecting my presidency and the Super Bowl? These are some seriously bad dudes." – @realDonaldTrump "How does McKay Coppins know about my plans to quit the campaign early? Or my relationship with the very sexy Candice Bergen? Suspicious!" – @realDonaldTrump "Now I'm hearing McKay tells stories about spending a few days with me at Mar-a-Lago? He was VERY LUCKY to come along. Should thank me!" – @realDonaldTrump "Tomorrow with Joshua Topolsky? Fake News! The Atlantic's McKay Coppins? A bad hombre! Crooked media strikes again. Sad!" – @realDonaldTrump "Bloggers like McKay Coppins & @BuzzFeed are true garbage with no credibility. Record setting crowds & speech not reported. @PiersMorgan" – @realDonaldTrump (This one is real.) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Music Hey and welcome to Tomorrow. Today on the podcast we discuss Trump, Trump, and Donald Trump. But first, I work for a sponsor. USAAA is passionate about what they do, ensuring the financial security of the military community and their families. As an employer, USAAA creates conditions for employees to succeed. USAAA is hiring for customer service reps, designers, developers, insurance, banking, and more.

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Hostgator even offers mobile friendly templates so your audience can easily browse your site on the go. It's everything you need all in one place, all backed by 24 seven expert support. And right now listen to this. This is fantastic. Our listeners get 60% off. Just visit Hostgator.com slash tomorrow to get started. My guest today is an extremely accomplished writer at the Atlantic, formerly of Buzzfeed. I'm, of course, talking about the man who is responsible for Donald Trump's presidency, McKay Coffins. McKay, thank you for being here.

Thank you for that. I'm sorry. Let me explain that to people who don't know what I mean. And we were just talking about this before we started, so we should just get into it. You may be in some way partially responsible for Donald Trump, for Donald Trump being president of the United States of America. Can you talk it all about, can you talk it all about how that came to be and how you feel about it?

Yes. The Atlantic I've discovered has just hired me to tell this story is like an atonement for my sins like in front of multiple crowds. You're like, Oh, what a great job offer. They're like, just to be clear, we just want you to talk about how you made Donald Trump. So early 2014, three years ago, I was at Buzzfeed and I pitched Trump's like AIDS, one of his AIDS, on the idea of like doing an interview with him. And this is like after, this is the post-birthr thing,

like Trump had done the whole birthr thing in 2012, and then he had endorsed Mitt Romney. And so he had kind of been in the political space, but like by that point, he would like everyone was sick of him, you know, like the Republican party was kind of sick of him, Democrats, like even the political. I imagine that. Well, but it's crazy because like, At that point, everyone was sick of him. Their public party was kind of sick of him, Democrats. Even the political. I imagine that.

Well, but it's crazy because he was irrelevant at the time. Even when I pitched this idea to my editors at Buzzfeed, they were kind of like, really, that's so boring, like a Trump interview. So I had arranged to interview him on the flight from New Hampshire, speaking of New Hampshire, flight from New Hampshire back to New York. And then right before I got on the plane with him, like I was going to fly with him right before I got on the plane, we found out there was a blizzard in Manhattan and his pilot didn't know if they could land.

And so Trump was like, let's just fly to Palm Beach instead. And one of his aides was like, well, we have this reporter here. And he was like, take him along. Let's bring him. So I spent two days that his like at Mar-a-Lago. He's his compound. Yes. His state. Uh huh. Where he's currently vacationing right now. Yes. Where he is right now. I know, I know it well after it's healthy two weeks.

President around to kick his feet up. And he's exhausted from signing off his executive order. I'm sure he is very tired actually. Oh yeah, he's tweeted it all out. Yeah, he doesn't sleeve. All right, so you fly down to Mar-a-Lago. Yeah. And you're hanging out with Donald Trump for two days. Yeah, and it's just like, obviously bizarre experience.

Like the place was empty. It was like him, me, like a staff, and that was it, and a couple of aids. So I spent two days, I interviewed him a bunch, I just like, we had lunch together, we just, you know, whatever. So then I went back and I wrote this profile. So you thought, I just want to, I hate to rub back. I just want to understand. You thought you were, you know, like, get him for a couple of hours on a plane.

Yeah, like 45 minutes. 45 minutes on a plane. 45 minute interview. And that's what I said. And then it's like, there's a blizzard in New a plane. Not like 45 minutes on a plane. 45 minute interview. And that is like, there's a blizzard in New York. So he's like, I bring, well, you're gonna go to Mar-a-Law to bring this guy. And then you're like this weird guest, like in this like citizen canes,

in Detroit. He's like a loaded man. And it's huge, Zanadoo. He's like, you guys are at the table where you're, it's like, you're on one end and like, 25 feet away. He's on the other end. But so then you're like, so you're in a room at Mar-a-Lago. Is this correct?

You're not in a hotel. You're like a red roof in down the street with me. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, staying at his house. You're in a room at Mar-a-Lago. And he's like, he wakes up, he's like working in that brunch on the veranda, come down. And you're just hanging out. Well, and it was weird because I didn't have a suitcase

or anything obviously, because I was just, you know, so it was just me and like a wool suit. It's like 80 degrees. I'm like, you can give you like Trump shirts. Well, he tried to, he was like, let's open up the store. We'll get you a bunch of clothes. But I was like, I, you know, every young Republican stream. I don't know.

I've tried to like, maintain some kind of like journalistic division, right? Sure. And Eddie, like didn't, I kept being like, we'll just, you know, send me an invoice and I'll have BuzzFeedle pay for it. And he was like, Oh, come on, please, it's on me. It's not anyway. So yeah, as long as the story is good. Okay. So you're hanging out with the Donald with president. Not you soon to be future president of the United States, Donald Trump. You get an intimate look into his into in Mar-a-Laga. And so what happened during this time?

Well, so I mean, like, you know, we had like a bunch of Trumpian weird things, like at one point, like right when we got to Mar-a-Laga, he like leaned in really close, like out of nowhere, he goes, there's a lot of good-looking women here. Oh, he said that. Yeah. How is his breath?

Is Donald Trump the kind of guy who has decent breath? I actually did happen. And the other one, he loves tick-tax. He's like, he's famously famous. I guess I should know the answer to that question. Famous fan of tick-tax. He's like, I always keep tick-tax. He actually says that does it.

He actually talks about having tick-tax on his. So I don't know why he did that. Okay, so he leaned and he said there's a lot of beautiful on me down here. And then he wondered, well, the other weird thing about this was that he was blowing off his wedding anniversary. His wife was back in New York. He blew off the wedding anniversary.

He'd come down the markup. It's so, it's so good. It's so good. I mean, hearing you talk about it, I'm like, it all just puts everything about Trump into a different light. Like, you're like, here's the thing about Trump that I think all the time. And now you'll tell us about it. But my guess is, in person, Trump is very charismatic.

My guess is that when you're talking to him, even if he's saying insane shit, he comes off as a very captivating person. Yeah, yeah, because think about... Like, this is the thing I always tried to explain to people. I'm like, he's in this current context. He's like, this is the thing I always tried to explain to people. I'm like, he said, like in this current context, he's like president and he's very, you know, like that it's not like president.

He is, you know, but I'm saying it's terrifying, right? Like his behavior as president of the United States and the way he talks, but when he's just like a normal dude who seemed at the time like fairly irrelevant to politics and like a million miles away from ever becoming anything important. Like it was, it was just kind of like, oh, it's like this crazy kind of racist guy. But it was like, you know, cracking jokes and telling stories, like trying to give me free stuff. Trying to get you in like, I love the idea. In my mind now, at least

I'm picturing you wearing like a pink Marlago shirt, a Marlago fleece. There's like, in Bonka Trump, there's some kind of like, you know, he's like, oh, we gotta go to dinner's face. You know, to get away or tie to dinner tonight, you have like a Donald Trump tie and one of his oversized blazers or whatever. Yeah. No, but the thing that I actually took away from it

was he seemed, he was like, but he was at a, he was, this was Trump and Winter. Like, this was like, he was like depressed and sad and like, he was almost like a tragic figure because he like wandered so desperately for me to like take him seriously as a political figure. And at the time there just was no reason for me to do that. And so he kept trying, you know, different hacks to like get me interested in his political

views. And my hope, the only thing I wanted to talk to him about is why he kept using politics and the potential for running for president as like a publicity stunt. Because he'd been doing this for 25 years, right, all the way back. The first time he said he might run for president was the year the art of the deal came out. And it was like a wait. Which is like 1987. Yeah, wow.

The year I was born. Yeah. That's crazy. So I was 10. So I was what I'm saying though. So it's crazy. You're so much younger than me. Yeah, no, I'm very old.

I'm a wonder kind. I don't know if you I did not in your notes. Is that it? Hard of the same. Political journalism. Wonder can the wilderness worked at Newsweek. Uh, cover Mitt Romney. Political journalism wonder. After the wilderness, worked at Newsweek, covered Mitt Romney. No, nothing here about WonderKey.

You got a reality starter under for president. I didn't even wake up until noon and I almost your age. Okay, so anyhow, so Trump wants you to take him seriously. Right. Here you are, you're a young reporter. Yes. I mean, what year is this? This is like 12? No, no, 2014. That's. Yes. I mean, 20 years. What year is this?

No, no, no, 2014. No, it's like just 25, 26. Just 25, 26. Just three years ago. And so what is it? What happened? What was the exchange that you believe led to? Well, so no, so what happened is that I went home and wrote this like 6,000 word piece about

my like journey, Donald Trump. And the whole, the whole thesis of the piece, which he has never let me forget, is was that he was never going to run for president. Like that this was like a, this was a sham, right? He had been doing this forever. The headline was 36 hours on the fake campaign trail with Donald Trump. And, and like, I, you know, I like poked fun at his aesthetic in the way that his like, hope his, his, his, um, Marlago was like decorated, whatever. I was understated. You have very, very, very, very, very, I don't know about Trump.

He's very, he likes subtle subtlety. Suttledy is his. If you want to describe his aesthetic as subtle, subtle. Yeah. No, so I wrote this and he, and so we published it and he freaked out and like, and how unusual. Trump freaked out about something that passed out. But the thing is it was before, no one was writing about him at this point or no one in journal, or in political journalism, right? Right. So like, I think he was especially mad because, you know, whatever.

So he, he spent like weeks tweeting about me at all hours. Do you think he felt personally hurt because he had invited you to this? So I found out later that that was part of it, but that he felt like he had been so generous in inviting me down, but he was especially wounded by the way I had poked fun at his like at Mar-a-Lago. Cause like, I brought you down here

and you make fun of my house, you know. But the thing is, you feel bad. I mean, it was a bad thing. No, this is the thing. So I went back. Can you imagine feeling bad for Donald Trump? But I actually feel there's something in like, in me that I do, I mean, I don't, I mean, he's horrible, but I feel like he's a sad character. Well, this has created my whole like take on Donald Trump now.

What? We're right. It's so bad. He's not seeing what the child's view of the world who tried to drive a journalist. I agree, but he's, but it's something very pathetic about. Oh, no, that's the patheticness. Yeah, it's pathetic. It's not sad.

I don't feel bad for him. Like a lost puppy is pathetic. This is a feral puppy that beat you and wants to bite your kid. Puppy is their teeth, they're barely eating. They don't. Your kid would be fine. Your kid would be fine. A couple of be fine. I don't worry about it. No, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no episode and I reported it out. And I talked to one of his advisors who like helped him

launch his campaign. And this advisor said that when Trump was kind of on the fence about whether he really wanted to run or not, one of the things that they would say to convince him to run was think about how bad McKay copains will look. And Trump would say, oh, that's true. Like that was like in the pro. So the pro got on for running. But the thing is, it's all accidental because from where you were like, come on, don't do it. Well, obviously in my case, but I'm saying even in his, what I'm told from his advisors is that when he initially

launched his campaign, the plan was, he was launched in like June, right, of 2015. And the plan was to saturate the media for the summer because there's famously kind of aate the media for the summer because famous, you know, there's famously kind of a huge news hole in the summer. And then he would drop out by October in time to re-up his celebrity apprentice contract. He was going to use this all as kind of a bargaining tool with NBC. So this was like this stated plan. And his advisor knew you're telling me that you telling me that the specific stated plan agreed upon by Donald Trump was to run

until the fall and then drop out. Presumably he wouldn't be doing that well. Like he would be doing okay. Or he'd be doing okay. Or they had a lit one of the advisors literally like listed out the excuses he would have for dropping out that would say face for him. Like you make up like they were, you know, they would say that like, he's now, that he's, his presence in the race has influenced the rest of the Republican field.

They've adopted his ideas. And now he feels free to return to the private sector, which is his real past. Sure. You know, like, they have like literally talking points ready for when he was going to drop. Wow. This is, and then there's an alternate history somewhere. It's like, if he wants to right now, he could go right in and say that we would know

it. But it's true. I think at this point, he really has influenced the Republican party. Oh, yeah. I think he's left his mark on everybody anyhow. Okay. So, so he was going to drop out in October. And then, well, for the first thing that happened is in that very first speech he gave, he

ad-libbed this thing that wasn't in his speech. The rapist. The rapist coming across the border of the Mexican rapist. And so immediately within like three days NBC had canceled their contract with him facing huge organized boycott. Yeah. Oh wow.

So he was all of a sudden like, oh, that plans out the window I guess. Oh, he's like, I won't go to return to the apprentice. I might as well become. I might as well be like, plan B, I'll become leader of the free world. This is like, he's like, I won't go to return to the apprentice. I might as well become. I might as well. I'm like, plan B, I'll become leader of the free world. This is like, it's yours to think about it. I know this is true. I know it in my heart.

I can tell in my heart because it feels, because everybody's like, oh, like I talked to people, actually we have a writer here I have to bathe to them all the time. He's like, this is a plan, they're taking over, it's a coup, it's this and that. I'm like, there's no plans. These guys are, if there were a plan,

you wouldn't even know we'd already be, it would be done. Like, they're, it's so easy. So, that's just stumbling into everything. And this is the thing. I mean, there are like, there are evil geniuses in his White House, right? There are people like Steve Bannon,

who like do, they do plot and scheme and they have like grand ideological visions. Trump is not that person. Trump stumbled backwards into the White House. Even to the abandoned. I know Steve Bannon is very evil and maniacal and scheming, but Steve Bannon is not like a career politician who understands the mechanisms of government.

No, that's right. Like, our government is very complicated. Well, as we've seen already, for two and a half weeks, I think it's like, you can write a really bad ass sounding document, but executing the document is a completely different story. Okay, so this is by the way, a fascinating, I mean, just hearing it from you, this, like, this, what a strange, I mean, you couldn't have known, obviously, any of this. Well, this is the thing.

So, all through the, like, the primaries, like, there was this running joke among, like, media people that were like, oh, this is the thing. So all through the, like, camp, the primaries, like, there was this running joke among like media people that were like, oh, this is your fault. And there's like a blame the K hashtag and stuff. But like, it was all jokes. And then what you won the nomination. And then like, the jokes became less and less funny. And like, started to become more like actually, they're like kind of accusatory. They were like, they're like, this is your fault.

Well, let it be, I think it should be a lesson to all of us to take people, take them seriously. Take people to how ridiculous their estates are. Well, this is the thing about Trump phone, to go back to the tragedy of Donald Trump, is that like, this, the whole thing of like people not taking them seriously and sneering at him and laughing at him is like his whole life story. He was born in Queens. People who aren't from New York don't understand this, but in the 19, whatever, he was growing

up in the 50s, 40s, 50s, 60s. Can't tell. Not a parent. Growing up in Queens, he was rich, but Queens was not like a fashionable place to live. And he tells stories. He told me a story about like looking across the East River at Manhattan and like kind of like burning with resentment

for like all the insiders there who like wouldn't accept him. And like his whole life has kind of been defined by wanting to be part of various in crowds and constantly being rejected and scared of that. This all of a sudden movie going to be fucking incredible. There's a good there's like it. It's a it has a cinemat quality. It's definitely like it's Shakespearean.

Yeah. So you're saying if he had gotten into art school. Well, we were actually here's that he went to Wharton and fit and here's a little fun nugget. Candice Bergen who would go on to play Murphy Brown. Yeah. She went to school at the same time at UPEN. He asked her out on a date. She was like homecoming queen. She was like, he asked her out at a

date and she turned him down and then told everyone about it and he humiliated him. I always think, I'm like, Candace Bergen, if you had just humid him. Candace Bergen also friends with Charles Manson before the Manson. Is that true? Is that true? It's kind of like a blind one. We have the fact that we're going to get fact shot from that. No, it's true.

But, all right, Google that. But, but that's, so actually now you're like, well, if you really want to blame somebody. Well, this is my thing. You're like, people start typing the hashtag, blame McKenzie. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to smash hashtag, blame can't. This is Ken. His Bergen's fault. If you want to get specific. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast.

Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast.

Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast.

Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. Blame the cast. just, he just told that from the I. He's like, I'd look out across the river that the big apple. I want to take a bite and you're like, I'm in that sounds familiar to me. I was like, man, that's kind of poetic, but it doesn't. Yeah. That's familiar. So, but now look, but we're living in reality. We're here in reality.

Donald Trump, the tragic figure of Donald Trump, he now is the president of the United States. He is in charge of our military. He's in charge of the law making bodies of this country. He has what seems like an endless amount of power. I mean, I feel like we've seen the flimsiness of the actual office at play here because not the flimsiness in that it doesn't, it is flimsy, but that like we thought there were all these like, well, of course, you know, people talked about, well, this is a big government. There's checks and balances.

Well, it's more that, yeah, the guardrails of like the democracy are maybe not as strong as we thought, right? I mean, that's the thing. Like, but the idea that the Trump even is president at all is, is, is staggering to me. And I'm just curious, like, so you've been, obviously, you've been covering this non-stop. You're writing about it, you're thinking about it. First off, is it surprising, like legitimately surprising that he's president for you? Yes.

For me, yes. Yes. Second. Yes, for you. Yes, for me. Yes. Yes. Second, is this how bad as a political writer, as a man who has thought about this and studied it, how bad is this for America? But it could, to me, it seems, I remember very vividly the Bush years. I mean, I was a grown person during Bush. And it was seemed like the end of the world. And some days it seemed like the end of the world.

Some days it was like, I can't believe he's getting away with his cronies or getting away with, I couldn't believe that he got elected. It was like this huge debate over the vote, so that got shut down by his friends. But I don't have any other parallel, like there's no comparison that I understand. But this seems like worse, doesn't it? This is definitely worse. There's a deaf, I mean, look, look, look, here's the thing.

Like, so one thing that I like had varied, like kept to be up at night the last couple days, did you see this thing? that I had very, like, kept me up at night the last couple of days. Did you see this thing? I mean, so the judge, this judge in Seattle stopped the temporarily stopped the so called judge. I mean, there might be a judge. I mean, I'm judging quotes when I talk about them. Yeah, no, I mean, it's all relative.

You stopped the implementation temporarily. It's the travel ban. Um, and Trump, like, went off on this thing. Yeah, called him a so-called judge. He went off on a Twitter rant, basically. Yeah. President, I mean, this is the, it's like, you have to keep, like, reminding yourself,

how insane this is. President went off on a Twitter rant about this guy all day. But the one tweet that I think, I actually try to make a point, because I'm covering this stuff and I'm writing about it, I try to make a point not to overreact to every provocation. Right. Because a lot of it is just noise, right? The Twitter feud or attacking Merrill Streep, that's obviously. It's just a press and a bull on an off steam.

It's a one on steam. It's bad, but also, I'm like, we have to pick and choose like what we're going to be rad and I've reached about right. Definitely. But like this, I think literally this is the worst thing that he's done since he's been elected. He said, if something, he said, because of this judge, bad people are pouring into our country. That's not true, by the way.

But, and if something happens, blame this judge and the court system, which is, that is, I mean, there's no other way than to interpret that as an authoritarian. Right. As, you know, like that is Trump's authoritarian tendencies being manifested. And I mean, I guess the super generous interpretation of that is that he's personally worried about a terrorist attack and is trying to like, he's has anxiety about it. The reality, I think, is that he's laying the groundwork to undermine the judiciary and to take advantage of some future terrorist attack.

Right. Which is troubling to say the least. It's scary. But is it, but to me, some kind of rickstack fire, but to me, but to me, the idea seems, to me, right, stack fire. Yeah, but to me, but to me, the idea seems, well, the way you just said it, the ladder version is an incredible, incredibly well thought out scheme to make a move, which does or maybe not. I mean, I don't know. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like him freaking on Twitter doesn't actually mean that he has a, he has a design, right? That's what I'm saying. Like him freaking on Twitter doesn't actually mean. Sure.

He has a design, right? That's what I'm saying. That's why I think there is the physical bathroom. He's in his bathrobe. You know, he's alone. He's in his bathrobe. He doesn't find the lights or whatever. Just tweeting.

He's just tweeting, man. No, but I think, yeah. So, but this is the thing. I think that there's a danger of overestimating Trump. I also think there's a danger of underestimating him. It's not like he needs to have an elaborate drawn out evil plan for this stuff. Like he, the one thing Trump has always had is extremely good media instincts, right? He's very good instincts for how to manipulate the new cycle and the way that he wants it to go. And I think that clearly, and I think that part,

this just goes back to his media instincts. He's thinking a couple steps ahead, which is if there is a terrorist attack, a lone wolf terrorist attack, which frankly is probably, I mean, hopefully not, but will probably happen. This is, you know, it's going to happen in the US, most likely at some point in his presidency in the next four years. He's thinking, how do I make sure that this doesn't reflect badly on me and that I can find someone else to blame? But it happened before, it happened during the campaign. I mean, there were lone wolf terrorist attacks and he used them. But, but, but, but what's, to me, it doesn't seem like they made much of an impression. I mean, I remember thinking, like, San Bernardino,

I remember thinking, when this hat, I'm like, oh, God. And San Bernardino did though in the primaries. Here the people forget Trump at that. This is what early December, I think when the San Bernardino shooting happened, maybe I don't remember someone. Ryan Chacken. Early 2015. Let's just say December 2015. He right around that time, he was, he had Ben Carson had pulled ahead in the polls in Iowa and he had kind of plateaued Trump had in the polls.

And right, and as, and then the San Bernardino shooting happened and he seized on it in his speeches and his rhetoric. That's when he announced for the Muslim bank, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it propelled him forward. It really did it kept him in the game, basically. Right. Okay. And so, I mean, kept him in the game, basically. Right. Okay. And so, I mean, kept him in the game.

He did only win by 70,000 votes. I think this is important to, right? It is like 70. I mean, I, I, I, one of the things I keep tying myself is that like, there is through Jerry Mandarin and some flukes of like, and, I mean, some, some deficits in, in Hillary Clinton's campaigning and some just a random shit that happened

and hit celebrity, like 70,000 votes squeaked through here and there and like he became president. Right. But it wasn't like this overwhelming mandate for Donald Trump because I mean, he lost the popular vote by three million votes. Right. Right. That says something. And I think, you know, it's probably it's probably an argument to be made that like the

Republicans have been just moving lines a little bit here and there for so long that that helped considerably in some of these, in some of these. Well, but not in the state, but I mean, it helped them when they keep the house, right? Right. The Republicans' majority in the house is largely protected because of the gerrymandered districts that they've done. But he won states, right? He won electoral, he won the electoral college.

That's right. But again, by very few votes, like, very few He won electoral, he won the electoral college. But again, there's no debating that. By very few votes. Like, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, like won these very narrow. So we should take a quick break. Okay. And then we'll back with more of this very enlightening conversation. We all rely on technology like computers, phones, and tablets on a daily basis.

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And listeners to this podcast can get a hundred dollardollar credit when signing up at getwiplash.com slash tomorrow. Okay, we're back with McKay Coppins. We're talking about, we're not talking about politics weirdly, we're just talking about sports. So, go, Pat. I want to, are you a Pat's friend? Yeah, I grew up in Massachusetts. Wow. I was done on Trump was rooting, we're, we're, we're rooting for the fish.

What a crazy country we live in. We're a true Spencer. I don't even like I don't care about I don't care about football at all. But I knew that I really wanted the Patriots to lose. I feel like it would have been symmetrical in some way for Atlanta to beat the Patriots. I know. Well, we are because I did like I as a Patriots fan have been conditioned to like love when everyone is rooting against my team. Yeah. But this time everyone is rooting against my team because like neo Nazis were rooting for

them. I mean, I was like a little bit, Richard Spencer was like on Twitter like set, you know, yeah. I was like, it was like a little bit more conflicted, but I mean, I was still rooting. Sure. I mean, they're your team. I get it. Uh, you have to carry that burden with you everywhere you go.

Uh, totally understandable. Um, I, you know, it's funny. I mean, Richard Spencer, I saw his tweet, which is like, here's why the pattern's great, like the whiteest quarterback. And I was just like, I actually tweet something bad, but I do feel like, to me, it seems like

he must be physically uncomfortable feeling when he feels all the time. It actually looks like it actually, to me, this lane must be like, I mean, I think he must feel a way that's very bad. I mean, I, now I sound sympathetic towards like, I mean, I think it's, I think he must feel a way that's very bad. I mean, I, I, now I sound sympathetic towards him, but like, I don't, I don't feel any sympathy for him, except I do think it's like, does he not, can he not see how distant he is from reality?

From reality? And from empathy and from being a good person. It's just like, what's the point? Like, what would your country, like, what's the, here's the one thing I think. Sorry, not to ramp it. I think what do you want? A bunch of white people here, it would be so fucking boring. America would be so boring with just white people.

I know enough white people to be like, it just would not be fun. I don't know what he wants. What's what seamless would look like? It was a shit. He's like, what can you get? I have sausage burger. I don't know. Schnitzel, I don't know what anyhow, but the point is, he's like, it was nice. Like, what can you get? I have sausage burger. I don't know, like, schnitzel. I don't know what anyhow,

but the point is seamless. That's actually a really good idea for a pop up website, which is like post, post, post, racial cleansing seamless, which is like one, there's one restaurant. So, okay, so let's talk about, we were talking about Trump.

He seems highly, it seems like Trump is highly impeachable. This thing about, we were just talking about San Bernardino shooting and I'm actually trying to understand this because I really don't. But like, first off, he gets into office, he signs up a bunch of executive orders. They're all pretty, most of them are pretty bad and bad for America and have just reversed things that Obama has sort of like, we think maybe fix like pipelines and healthcare and whatever else. But I'm not fixed, but at least like made some, some, what seemed like positive headway on.

But then there's this like executive order. It's this immigration ban. The immigration ban site 9-11. This is the thing to me that's most striking is that 9-11 happened 15, 16 years ago. And so the first thing he does is he cites a terrorist attack that happened almost two decades ago, which is ancient fucking history. I mean, to me, it's like, you know, I mean, if you grew up, if you were a kid then now, it's like just like really, really ancient history to me, it's ancient history. We haven't had a terrorist attack like that, not even close in America. Now, we might, we could have one tomorrow, who knows, because

anything is possible. But we've had some lone wolf shootings here. We've had, I'm, my guess is, I haven't seen these numbers where I've seen them in passing, more white guys who are angry with the gun shooting people than we've had Muslims with the gun shooting people. I don't know the stats. Maybe you do. But he suddenly makes this a huge issue about immigration and about Muslims or refugees, people from Syria, people from Sudan, people from, you know, all these countries. But he did, so this is the thing. People are like, this is unconstitutional. People see it as People are like, this is unconstitutional. People see it as a religious, a religion-focused ban. Not a ban focused on safety based on the normal strata

of options that you would, you know. It's like, we need to give preference to Christians something he said, right? And Muslims need to be banned, it's also something he said verbatim, and made a statement about it has on his website. Right. So here's my question.

In the legal realm of America, and I maybe you know this, maybe don't, is that stuff applicable? Is it, is it, can we say like the president's asking for something unconstitutional? Are you saying that these reasons he could be impeached? Well, let's, let's take it out of the impeachment question for a second. We, I want to talk about that, but like, just when we talk about whether this band sticks or not, can a can a lawyer effectively argue that the statements that he made speak to this band? They will.

They'll try to make that argument. The this is going to go to the Supreme Court, obviously, to the Supreme Court. Yes, the one missing a member. Right. The, for the eight members of Supreme Court, where this could end up a tie. Right. And if it is a tie, by the way, it means that it stands. The federal, the, this executive order stands, that's what happens. Right. Right. So yeah, they'll, they'll argue that the intent of this was to discriminate against Muslim immigrants. And as evidence, they'll cite his campaign speeches where he said, I'm going to discriminate against Muslim immigrants. Right.

And Rudy Giuliani. You have this clip of Rudy Giuliani, which is like almost so perfect. I can't, you couldn't write it into a script if you wanted to where he's like, Trump came to me and said, I want to ban Muslims. How do I do it legally? Yeah. Yeah. Which is illegal for, would be illegal for the president to ask, correct? I mean, at least un I want to ban Muslims. How do I do it legally? Yeah. Yeah. Which is illegal for, would be illegal for the president to ask, correct?

I mean, at least unconstitutional for the president to ask. So, so the, the, the, so I think the issue, the two issues that they're going to have to prove, the people who are arguing against this, the lawyers who are in court arguing against it. One is they're going to have to argue that the states who are suing over this have standing to sue. And that's an open question. It's not clear whether, for example, the state of Washington or the state of Minnesota who are suing the, the federal government over this actually have the standing to do it. Why wouldn't, why wouldn't, why wouldn't

they have, well, so they argue that because it affects their, the people in their state, that's what the, that it, that they have standing. It does like some material harm to, to, because we have Muslims in our state, we have, you know, refugees and immigrants, whatever. Right. But there's a lot of, you know, court precedent, illegal precedent that says the states don't have the ability, the standing to sue over executive orders of this kind. The president does have a lot of latitude

when it comes to immigration policy. The second question is equal, and you could have much smarter legal minds talk about this. I'm planning on getting them. You're just a sad off. But yeah, no, this is the cliff notes here. Yeah.

The, you know, our immigrants, people who are not citizens of the United States, do they, are they protected under the equal, uh, equal, uh, equal, uh, equal rights protections of the constitution, right? Right. That's the other question. Yeah. Um, so those, those, those will be a kind of, and that will seem to you. I mean, I think, I think, yes, I think that if the, if an immigration system set up by

the federal government is designed to discriminate against people of a certain religion, that's clearly on Constitutional. Now, they're going to argue though that it's not about religion. They're going to say, we didn't say all Muslims couldn't come here. We said people from the seven countries couldn't come here. And there is precedent for the federal government restricting immigration, according to nationality. Right. Right. Is there a difference between the fact that some of people that he's banning

our immigrants and some of our refugees? Like, Well, actually, the biggest difference, the biggest problem with the executive order was that it included green card holders. It included people who had already been through the vetting system, been allowed into the country legally,

given a green card, which means they had permanent resident status. They went on vacation and then they weren't allowed back into the country legally, given a green card, which means they had a resident, permanent resident status. They went on vacation and then they weren't allowed back into the country, which is insane. And actually, you've already seen leaks coming out of the Trump administration where high level cabinet officials are like a pall that that even happened and they weren't consulted. His secretary of state, his secretary of defense, neither of them were even consulted on the details of this executive order. So things. So, you know, we'll see what happens.

I think that it's unlikely that in its current form, this executive order is going to stand. But I'm hard, I've had a hard time making predictions like that because we're in such uncharted territory every day now. Right. It's like, you don't really, I mean, it doesn't seem like the, yeah, I mean, we were saying before those guardrails that you expect to be in place that would go like, oh, well, this seems insane. Why are we doing this?

Well, there's a mechanism within the government that will make sure that this doesn't happen. Well, I'm so far, I mean, I will say the sign of hope is that as of now, a federal judge ruled that this was, you know, unconstitutional and it's, and as of now, the Homeland Security Agency is not enforcing it. Right. The Department of Homeland Security has stopped enforcing. That is the way that this government is supposed to work, right? Right.

Right. A judge made a ruling. It's not clear that that'll keep happening. Like if you have Trump out there saying blame the judge, blame the court system, right. What if he decides not to follow the next? People in the government, well, that is the question. So people in the government seems to me like, and I actually want to talk about this because I want to talk about these leaks and I want to talk about like where that's coming from

and what it means. But it does seem to me that people in the government buy in large and I think, and maybe you will agree and disagree or disagree with this, even Republicans, even Republicans who are like outwardly supporting Trump. They can't, do you think they possibly see the Trump as their lifeline or is this like, is he a bigger problem than he's worth at some point? I mean, Republican in the Congress. Yeah.

I mean, anybody who's supporting, who would support Donald Trump at this moment, you know, we're two weeks in. So you would imagine there's some good will. They're like, well, okay, you screwed up. You should be. They're trying to get him the benefit of the doubt of the vote. But at some point, doesn't it, isn't this catastrophic if it keeps going in this way for Republicans?

I mean, if Steve Bannon calls the shots and Donald Trump's calling the shots and they can kind of do whatever they want and say whatever they want, then like an establishment Republican, there's no like safe ground for them to stand in. No, I mean, we've, the Republicans I'm talking to on the hell are like privately, when you, you know, they're not on the record, or, you know, they're so, they're already exhausted and we're doing half weeks in. Right. Like the one quote I saw and I think it was the Washington Post or somewhere else was

that they're tired of the chaos, right? Yeah. Like they don't want, the reason that so, like Paul Ryan and all these people are going along with Trump right now is because they, this is the first time in a very long time in decades that the Republicans have controlled the presidency and both chambers of Congress. Right. So they see this as a once in a lifetime shot at passing all their legislation, reforming you know, budget cuts and entitlement, entitlement, changing those entitlement programs and tax cuts

and rewriting the tax code. And all these fiscal issues that Paul Ryan care is so deeply about. Like, he's like, all right, this is going to be my one shot. We're going to try to go along with Trump's, try to stay on his nice side and get him to just like rubber stamp all the stuff that we're right. But isn't the, won't the, won't the reaction to this be very meaningful from the, from the left? I mean, isn't, are we already starting to see like a kind of reinvigorating of the Democrats or of people who lean left in a way that we probably haven't seen? I mean, I mean, it makes, it makes Bush the Bush stuff look mild by comparison because during the Bush years, we barely had like the internet or social media to amplify any of this stuff.

I mean, I look at the women's march or all these protests that happen immediately as the ban took place, as the ban took, went into effect. And it's not, that's not normal for America. I mean, we don't see spontaneous protests in multiple cities, including places in the south, including, you know, places on the west and in these coasts. This is a different climate, right? It's a, yes, I think the rise in activism we've seen in just the first two weeks is a testament to how invigorated the left is. I think that, you know, showing the thing that this has to transform into is it has to be putting direct

political pressure on candidates and office holders, right? Like, it's good to show up at the airports, right? Because that's how you draw, you know, when the Muslim ban or the travel ban was in place, showing up at the airports, right? Because that's how you draw, you know, when the Muslim ban or the travel ban was in place, showing up at the airports is how you get cameras there. It's how you amplify the media attention. But what you, but what long term needs to happen if you're a activist who wants to oppose Donald Trump

in his agenda, is you need to be showing up at your congressional representatives, town halls. You need to be showing up at your congressional representatives, town halls. You need to be calling the group your congressional offices. You need to be putting political pressure on people running for office, right? And supporting candidates that oppose the agenda that you want to oppose. That's the only way. The Tea Party showed this, right? The Tea Party in 2009 and 10, like they started out. It's so funny, the parallels, because

you already see like Sean Spice or the White House Press Secretary is saying, oh, all these activists, this is just astroturf. This is exactly what Democrats were saying about the early Tea Party protests, right? This is astroturf. They're paid protesters. It's funded by these big conservative organizations. It doesn't mean anything. And then next thing, you know, it's 2010 and they're taking over Congress.

So that I think is happening on the left. I think it could happen. I think that we have to see what direction it goes. Like it can't just be yelling and shouting about Donald Trump and how much you hate him and how he's orange and ugly. It has to be a point to it all. I think the orange and ugly attacks are actually kind of the worst. I think like the like, you know, do I think Trump is attractive?

Do I think his skin color is natural? No, no, but I think it's like it never, you never really getting where am I going like? He's ugly or like he's fat or what? Because that's not effective. Because you just go end up sinking to what Donald Trump don't do. Well, attacking Trump. You're also not telling people things they don't already know. Right, but in defense of, but in defense of, I will say one thing is like,

it's lame. No, it is. I agree. It is. They're not good. They're not productive at all. They're never funny. Like calling him President Chino is never funny.

Yeah, it's dumb. Yeah, but also, it's also like, you know, I just think that thing, I will say, you know, they go low and we go high. It's like, well, maybe you don't go as high. Like, you, we want to go, I mean, Democrats have this, have this tendency to go like, we're not going, we're just not going to respond. It's like, you know, at some point, maybe it's okay to respond in some way. Like show that you actually are in this, that you actually care about me. I think, you know, Bernie Sanders for all of the negatives that there are about Bernie Sanders, I mean, he's by no means, he was by no means perfect, you know, but he was authentic and he, he, he was, well,

he was very loud. I mean, he was loud. And I think people really responded to the fact that he was somebody who sounded like they were coming from a place of authenticity and coming from the heart. And we're not backing, we're not backing down from a lot of the. Yeah, the fact that he was kind of a crank and was like shouting of it. Like people responded to that. Like, it's the strangest thing. I'm like, oh, this old Jewish guy. Yeah, he's going to be president. Sure. But then like shockingly people were like, I like, it's like, you like this guy's like my cranky uncle. This is like Russia's Shana dinner. This guy is always there.

But now and now he's like you get to be president of the United States. That's the thing. I don't know. But it's authenticity, right? This is the thing that was lacking in the clean campaign. Like everything felt so like so focused group and Paul tested and like every debate she had some like terrible

like trickled that trumped up trickle down economics. You're like, so like you have to go to the polls. It's just like, okay, okay, okay, we can. Yeah. So authenticity is part that that's from the other side though, right? So the activist, if you're an anti-trupped activist, you should be putting pressure on political, directly on political office holders.

If you're a Democrat or Republican who poses Trump, there are some of those. Like you need to find an authentic way to communicate your message to the Obama Trump voters, right? The people who voted for Obama in 2012 and voted for Trump in 2016. Which are like, what is that? What is the, what is the psychology of those people? They just want the person who says they have the most chain. Well, yeah, there are people who don't have like, cushy, great lives like us. But I mean, but I, but I think it really is though. It's, you want, it's the change message that they're responding to.

Right. It's people. Which is why Bernie was working. Yeah. And Bert and that's why you, you have been seeing Bernie on TV before and he now here's some crazy guy screaming about how like you're getting railroaded by, by, by a big bank. And you know, like, yeah, that sounds right. And you've got, well, maybe this guy actually would

like bring radical change to Washington. That's all Bernie Sanders might. I think Donald Trump is, the radical change is like, he's going more radically, crony. Like, like he took cronyism to like an even more extreme place. So let's say I want to talk about a Steve Bannon to his, everybody's like, I don't know. I feel like this thing all seems so scripted

that I find it hard to believe sometimes where it's like, well, Steve Bannon's really pulling the strings. It's like, oh, yeah, of course. He's got this kind of character behind the scenes who's this Macavellian mastermind or whatever. And Trump, and this thing about, oh, Trump was upset. Cushion Spicer was played on SNL by a woman. I read all this stuff. And I'm it is hard to like, come on. It's just really, it just seems so, it's too perfect.

It's so obvious. Like it's something that a 14 year old boy would be upset about. Like, why do they have Sean be a woman that's so offensive? It's like, who cares? Like, how could he possibly care? But then I think like must be true because everything else that you think is too impossible to believe seems real too. So there are a ton of leaks coming from inside of the White House. I mean, to me, it feels like this is by far the leakyest White House. It's insane. Ever. Usually White House, I mean, there've been leaky White House in the past, but it's not usually in the first two weeks of the administration.

We're multiple, the New York Times had a story, I can't remember what it was, but they cited three administration officials. Like, who are these three administration officials? We're confirming negative stories about the president. Who would they be? Is this like, are they fucking with the press? Well, no, well, that's possible.

I'm actually very wary of that when I'm talking to people and that, because I, you know, I still report on this. I mean, you want to find a leak. You want to find a leak or you want to find a way to be worried that they're setting you up, like they're planting false stories to make you look stupid. Like the bathroom thing. Yeah. Right. I mean, the bathroom, I mean, I love making jokes about the bathroom thing and the light switch thing. And I, and I can totally understand if it's true. I mean, you know, the light switch thing, I I can totally understand if it's true. I mean, you know the light switch thing, I think is blown out of proportion. But I understand like, we have lights in my house

where you have to turn it on on one side but it doesn't work on the other. I can understand how in the white house there might be large rooms. I don't even actually care about that. I'm like, who cares about the white light? But the detail, but the deep, what do you do with this?

It's just the love of details. What's so interesting for me. So what is like, how do you, this is where the leaks are coming from. The reality is that Trump's White House like Trump's campaign is constantly fractured into warring factions. Is this true?

Yes, that is. I want that to be true. That is absolutely true. I want to know that inside of Trump's little world, things are bad. He sets it up this way. Like he likes, he wants his people to be competing with each other. This is what people set up Bloomberg, actually. But

it's really interesting. But here's the thing. She's gone entirely untrue. Well, and so, but here's the thing. So, like Trump, you know, so he has like, Reins Prebus, who's like ultimate establishment, Washington insider, like mainline Republican guy, is chief of staff. And then his chief strategist is Steve Bannon, who ran this crazy website and wants to burn down the establishment and build something new, right? And so they have, they have, they have, they know he wants to build by the well, a nationalist, you know, a nationalist government.

He was just like, he's, he's like, he's like white people. He's, I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don't get why I don also likes white people. He's, I don't think you asked what his favorite race was. It probably like white people. Yeah, I just don't get a good, like, you know, that much. I mean, they're fine. They're fine, but they're not, they're not that interesting. I honestly think the most strange thing about it is like do you, like, anyhow, I've already made this point that I think so, I think it would be boring. But it's okay. So there, so you got these rear-end, right? That's the best. That's the best.

That's the best. That's the best. I think boredom is a good case. Rens Privis over here with a, who has a totally normal name that I love and Steve Bannon. And then Steve Bannon and so those, and those are the two main factions. And then there's, and so they each have their own fleet of people who are kind of on their side. Right.

And then there's, and then there's kind of separate from all of it is Ivanka and Jared Kushner, who are like, they have their own kind of like special, obviously special way into talking to Trump because they're related. So, and so it's kind of those three power centers. And, but just a lot of, and a lot of the leaks you saw during the campaign

was just the different power centers trying to undermine each other or, or, you know, make the other side look bad or fire a shot across the bow. Right. Or the other thing is, the other thing is that Trump is uniquely somebody who like takes a lot of,

puts a lot of stock in what he sees on cable television. And so, and what he reads in the New York Times and the New York Post, which are his two favorite newspapers. All set. Really opposites this spectrum. So, so if you can get, so a lot of this is, I think I can't prove this, but I've had a lot of people, pretty knowledgeable people who have speculated this to me that a lot of this is Trump's own advisors trying to get across to Trump by leaking to his favored media outlets, right? So that he'll read The New York Times a bit. Well, this New York Times story says that we're not doing well on XYZ. Maybe we need to do

something different, you know. So this story about ban and being putting this order in front of him where he gets added to the national security council. Yeah. And Trump didn't really know. This is in the times yesterday, right? How real could that possibly be? Is that true? I mean, if that's true, that to me seems like it could, I mean, look, so just let's make clear for the record that Trump has pushed back against that pretty strongly.

But I think that it could be, it could definitely be true. I will say the two white house, the two reporters who wrote that in the New York Times are extremely well sourced probably of, you know, aside from like Sean Hannity, you know, have like the most lines into the inner circle. So it's pretty likely there's some proof too. So it's very possible. It's true.

It's also possible that somebody was trying to make undermine Steve Bannon because it's nothing that gets Trump matter than one of his advisors, then making it look like one of his advisors is pulling the string. So, that's true. So the idea that Trump is a puppet of Steve Bannon's upsets Trump. Oh, yeah. No, he definitely doesn't like that. And in fact, I've heard this was reporting, and I also have heard this, that he hated that Bannon was on the Coverow Time magazine.

So the current issue of Time magazine is like Bannon's face, and it says like the great manipulator, or something like that, and Trump apparently is like fuming over that. He hates that. Okay, so that's good. So this is like Rens Pribus and Kushner. Well, I don't know, I don't know.

Hypothetically, it could be. Hypothetically, it's like we would like to, because the truth is if it were just, if Steve Bannon were out of the picture, it's likely that that Trump's more democratic leaning interests might be, or at least moderate interests might be brought to the forefront, right? Like he can obviously, he obviously doesn't just have ideas on his own. I mean, he has some ideas on his own. Right. But it seems like he's heavily influenced by it. Well, Ben, I think the reason this whole idea

of, and like, again, all a lot of this is speculative. So I can't like say that I like know for sure. But I think a lot of the idea that Ben and his poll is like the puppet master has come from the fact that Trump ideologically has been all over the map over the course of his life. Like, he's been a Democrat or a Republican and independent. He was part of Ross Perot's reform party. Like he's all over the place. He was broke, and then he wanted to punish women who got a board. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I don't think he knew what he was saying. By the way, I think he, what he said was stupid and horrible, but it seemed like in one of those moments, it was like he didn't really understand what was being lost of him. But I think that that's often, this is a tangent, but I think that often what would happen, because he's not a real, he doesn't come from conservatism, right? Like I don't think he understands pro life people at all.

And I think when that question started, this was during the primary. When Chris Matthews asked him that question about abortion, like should women be punished, I think his, like the wheels were turning in his mind and he was like, what would pro-life people want me to say? What would they want me to say? Yeah, we should punish them, right? Like, which it's funny, because I talked to social conservatives

who were like offended that they thought that's how, that Trump thought that was how he needed to pander to them. Right, well, I mean, I'm sure every group that Trump is pander to wants to be offended in some way. I mean, there's no shortage of it. I mean, but those are the kinds of things where I'm like, he just isn't, he's brain is infontating. Yeah. Well, maybe it is, maybe you're right. Or he just, or he hasn't thought, I mean, he hasn't thought about a lot of this stuff at all. Yeah. But that's, that goes back to my point that I think that Bannon is somebody who has a track record of like, he's thought about this stuff a lot. Yeah.

And he is like a very refined policy vision of what he wants America to look like. And he's talked about it extensively and he's written about it. And so I think people think like where is this agenda coming from? Right. It's probably not coming from Trump's brain because he's been all over the place. It must be coming from this ideologue that he has in the office. Well, it maps. I mean, it makes perfect sense. But I mean, how long is it sustainable? I mean, because I want to get to, and you know, we have only a little bit of time left, but I do want to talk about this.

And then you must be feeling this. It is very fatiguing. We've been doing this. Now, this is like Trump's presidency has lasted all of two and a half weeks or something. And it feels like two fucking years. I mean, it feels like every, every moment of every day, I feel like I'm living on this. And it's not even like, you know, we cover some of the stuff, not all of it. We're not like encyclopedic.

Doesn't it feel to you like this pace is impossible to keep up that there has to be some slowdown or some dramatic shift in how we're operating. I mean, it's as a nation. I think that is, that's like, if that might just be like wishful thinking because we're like also exhausted. Definitely, it's wishful thinking. But no, but I think that, like, I think the concern, so I'll put in a plug for the magazine

I work for. The Atlantic, the Atlantic issue that just hit new stands today, the cover story is how to build an autocracy. And it's about how Trump could theoretically, hypothetically, build an authoritarian state in the United States in 2017, right? In modern times, right? Oh, you know, yeah, in this age, right? They're in modern times, right? Oh, you mean with it? Yeah, in this age, right? Because it's not going to be like,

you're like, here's the three or six, you five day plan, is your Audrey. We just set it right to ban and we're like, here you go, but it's yeah, slide it out. But one of the things, one of the things that is absolutely necessary, like the preconditions for this to be able to happen. And again, who know, maybe Trump won't do it. Maybe he doesn't want to whatever. But the

preconditions, one of the preconditions is that the electorate, the public just gets so tired of opposing him and so tired of talking and fighting about politics and, you know, showing up and calling their congressional reps and showing up in protests and that they just kind of tune out, that a large part of the population is like, you know what? I'm just going to be done with politics for a little while and I'm going to think about movies and TV and music and limit my social media to that and limit my discussion to that and that's all I'm going to do. And I think that the thing that we have to guard against is, we have to be ready

for the possibility that it won't slow down. Right. That is just gonna keep going like this for years. Yeah. And we have to find a way, I mean, look, we have to take care of ourselves like mentally, like, you can't just be in perpetual, like, you know, combative mode all the time. But I think we need to. Yeah. No, but I feel that I wake,

I mean, I'm waking up in the middle of the night, I'm waking up in the morning, and I just feel like what is next? Yeah, I mean, maybe it's like, I don't know, I'm not like an expert on how to. Well, the people in the news maintain mental health, but I think the news business are probably a little more. Right, right.

And I think you need to check in and out at time, right? Like I try to take like Sundays off, like try to not. Sundays a bad day take off. For the news. As it turns out, yeah. But I think that we need to be, find a way to continue to be vigilant and be ready for that possible.

Right. Just keeps going. The ban and the ban and previous war just keeps going. Yeah, yeah. I mean, to me, I just, And maybe there'll be the thing is, Trump went through three campaign managers during his campaign. Like, you know, ban and reprieve is could be out next week. Right. And there'll be someone new and then a whole new set of rivalries.

And like, you just, you know, like, I think there's going to be a lot of chaos. If this, if this ban gets knocked back in a more permanent way, or in a way, that's like, I mean, my assumption would be they're like in the form that it exists, it's not going to fly, find another form. What is there fallout from that? I mean, is there immediate fallout from that? Does that seem like an obvious thing in the political arena where you would see? I think what it would do is get probably emboldened Trump's opposition, right? The people who are opposing him would see a victory, right?

They'd have something like, and even though that, you know, if the Supreme Court knocks it down, that's not directly related to how many, you know, activists showed up in JFK. But I think that they'll be able to see, he is stoppable, right? Like, it is possible to have tangible results here. I think that would be the most likely effect.

Right. I mean, it seems to me like tangible results here. I think that would be the most likely effect. I mean, it seems to me like even even, I mean, you know, the conservatives on the Supreme Court have to look at Trump through a lens that is not that generous. I mean, I think that, like I have, maybe I'm being naive here, but I have hope in the judiciary at least as a way

to keep presidential power and check in the next four years, because I don't think that conservatives on the Supreme Court feel any fealty to Donald Trump. Like I think that they're more worried about, you know, most generously, they're worried about their own interpretation of the Constitution. They're also worried about their own legacies, right? Right. And they're not up for re-election, and they don't have to worry about that stuff.

And I think that federal judges in general, they just don't worry about dying. Right. Exactly. The only thing they ever do. So I, as long as Trump doesn't actually find some way to permanently undermine the judiciary, I feel some hope that, well, that'll keep him in check. But we have a pretty highly complex judiciary and legal system in this country. It's not like you can just dismantle it overnight. Right.

I mean, the Supreme Court is the Supreme Court. That doesn't change. You can't alter these bodies, right? You can't just go like, well, actually, the Supreme Court is not going to be as important here. Well, the fear is that the Supreme Court rules on something and Trump decides to ignore it and just and tells his administration to do what he wants. Okay.

So then what is, they have no enforcement arm. So then you're in a constitutional crisis, right? And that rises to like military, right? Well, yeah, because the problem is, and this is Andrew Jackson actually Trump's hero, and he actually was president one year of the 19th century. So, and Andrew Jackson, he's the president that Trump most compares himself to. They have that he put the Andrew Jack, he's a podcast figure. So, the trail

of tears. Yeah. So, the trail of tears, though, is an example where the Supreme Court ruled on, on displacing Native Americans, they said that it was not constitutional. And then the federal, the state went ahead and did it anyway. And depending on historians' interpretations and, Andrew Jackson either just looked the other way or actively supported their right to do that. But in either case, the problem is that the Supreme Court doesn't have an enforcement arm. There's no, the Supreme Court can't send their military home to enforce what they just ruled. The whole thing depends on a basic measure of good faith where you just assume that if the Supreme

Court decides something, the president's going to go along with it. So these are no recourse. What's the recourse? Well, the recourse would be that you hope that there are enough people in the military and in the and in the federal government in the deep state, right? People who are just federal employees orrats, that would not follow an order from the president that defies the Supreme Court. To those people exist in your mind?

Oh yeah, there are definitely people like that. But I mean, we're in real pay, true. Yes, I think, and their conservatives and liberals, I think that there are real people who care about the country more than they care about Donald Trump. Right. I will say, but we're in very hypothetical territory here.

We're hoping that we're like three stages away, but we're not as far as we were like two years ago. Yeah, sure. Five or 10 years ago or whatever. Right. Right. Yeah. So hopefully we never get to the constitutional crisis stage, but if we get there, I mean,

it's crazy that we're at the point more like the Washington Post is running story, like explainers that are like, what happens in a constitutional crisis? Like, that's not happening. It is crazy. I mean, I don't know. I mean, to me, it feels like, I said this on election night, I was like, I think this is like,

Donald Trump winning is the end of America as we know it. I mean, I really do, I have to say, the fact that we're sitting here talking about any possible scenario where we have to like figure out what happens in 2017 if Donald Trump, the president, defies the Supreme Court and maybe the military gets involved. Maybe there are deep state figures that get involved. Like, we are talking about a plot of a fucking movie. I mean, we're not talking about, we're not talking about the United States of America

where, you know, we're arguing over gay marriage, right? We're, you know, we're arguing over something much more fundamental to the existence of this country, which is like, who is in control here? And I don't know. I feel like that's very disturbing. Am I crazy to think that? No, I don't know. It's like, I just brought you in for therapy.

I just made it to you. Am I here to just like validate your concern? Just tell me that my concerns are real. You're entitled to your feelings. No, I think that I think you're right to be concerned. But again, like the weird thing about this is that it's not like at journalists, I feel like political journalists are so programmed to like not take sides. And like, well, let me just give you the analysis. Like to me, this isn't a partisan issue at all. It's not like a conservative liberal

Republican Democrat thing. This is like a, and there are a lot of real debates in those in that world, right? But this is more about, you know, small L liberalism versus illiberalism, right? This is about like, do we believe in the fundamental ideals of like, of American, of American liberal democracy, right? And hopefully, like, I still am hoping that, you know, Trump is not interested fundamentally in turning American to an authoritarian state. Like, I think that, I think that you don't have to urgently be, you know, stocking up ammo ready for that, you know, preparing for that. I also feel like this is a different age.

I mean, talking about the trail of tears and Andrew Jackson. I mean, we are, I mean, I don't think we have a, I think there's a, I think there's a populist that's like, there's a part of this country that's on the brink of feeling more strongly than protests. You know, and I think that, that's where I get like, well, a part of this country that's on the brink of feeling more strongly than protests. You know, and I think that that's where I get like, well, I don't think I think there's a lot of people in this country. There was a poll several years ago that found that some I'm not going to get it right,

but a considerable portion of conservatives of T, I think self identified T partiers, believed that there was a, it was likely that there would be an armed uprising in their lifetimes. That they're. Well, they've made it so. I mean, they've made it more possible than anybody. I mean, we just have these like wildly polarized sides

that, that seem unnecessarily, like I feel like we're unnecessarily polarized. Like the immigrant ban, the Muslim ban, whatever you want to call it, it doesn't seem necessary. We have we have vetting processes. We have not had like a rash. I would understand if Donald Trump came into power and we should wrap after this, but I mean, we can talk for hours, I'm sure, but they if Donald Trump came into power with a wave of major attacks, coordinated major attacks. I would go, okay, we really have a pro, we have to do something about it.

Terrorism is not going away. That's a problem forever. It will never, it's like the one thing you can count on is that someone's going to find a way to act against people in a small or a big way, whether it's coordinated or not, you can have a lone wolf attack, you can have a lone gunman, you can have a group of people coordinating something. But like, if we had a wave of terrorism that was really pointed, now globally that's happened,

but globally, there's always been terrorism. So, I don't, it just feels like for no reason we're having this debate right now. For the only reason is to what, to prove the Trump will do, what he said he was going to do in the campaign trail, to give Steve Bannon a feather in his cap. Like I don't know what the reasons are. I really don't understand the motivation.

I get you want a fast track, you're like nationalist agenda, but like couldn't you wait, it couldn't you wait like six months or a year, I mean, they're not going anywhere, right? It's not like, it's not like no, it's not like people were sitting around the day after a Trump got elected and going, well, I just hope he gets that immigrant problem taken care of as a. Well, although I think a lot of voters were, right? I mean, this is the thing that we people forget. Like Trump campaigned on the promise of a Muslim band. Like this wasn't like, but isn't it jobs? Isn't it like about getting some money and getting better? And, and, and

and I know I can draw a line, but, but I think that he came into office and he was like, what can I do right now? Right? Like any people drew up a list of executive orders and he started signing them, right? It wasn't like he couldn't bring, he couldn't like force forward into a, into a sense of executive order about racism and those personal grievances are so tied together where people are like, well, if we stop the immigrants, I'll get my job. Well, yeah, I think I'm again, like I think it strikes me as completely illogical.

Well, but that is a big part of it. The people feel like these refugees and immigrants and outsiders coming into their country are the reason that they don't have work, that they're, that their plan to shut down, that they've been displaced, whatever. And so, you know, signing an executive order that limits immigration into the country is a way of at least signaling to your base if you're Trump to say, hey, look, I've got your back. But there's literally no way to explain. I mean, I, this is just like a guy from in New York arguing, but like, there's literally no way, what's so strange to be is just, it's not possible to go actually what happened is major corporations moved your job somewhere because it was cheaper for

them because people are, will work for pennies on the dollar. I mean, is it not, do they not understand? Like, it's not, it's not like some guy from Syria didn't come to the town and is like, now I'm working in the factory. It's like, no, there are people who are are essentially slaves in other places that will work for a wage that you would never work for. Trump talked about that too, though, right? And Bernie did too about this whole idea of basically getting tougher on trade with China

and Mexico and these other countries that are out where your jobs are being out of business. Which would make sense, but I mean, Trump is literally filling his cabinet with people who are can deeply connected to those corporations. So it's like, anyhow, of course, Trump is literally feeling his cabinet with people who are can deeply connected to those corporations. So it's like, anyhow, of course this is. You should just have me, I'm just going to defend Trump for the next hour. No, I mean, you are the man who made Trump happen.

So, okay, this is really good. Thank you so much for doing this. This is like an amazing conversation. I am regretful that we have, this is our first. I hope it will not be our last. I hope not. And good luck out there because you're moving to DC. You're going to be in the swamp. You'll be up to your deck at the swamp.

And just be careful because you know, it seems very treacherous. It's a treacherous time in the swamp. And we can look for the Atlantic. Just keep your eyes peeled. Yeah, I'll be writing for the magazine. And you've got a book I should mention. I mentioned it already, but the wilderness, I'm going to read this up to I know. No, it's so long. Deep inside the Republican Party's combative, contentious, chaotic quest, very illiterative there, to take back the White House, which by, I assume has a lot of backdrop for what's happening.

Yeah, it's a profile. So go and buy it. It's been published by, I don't know who it's done say who it's talking about, little brown, tremendous publisher. Anyhow, okay, a little brown for men as publisher. Anyhow, okay, thanks again. Yeah, thank you. Well that is our show for this week, but we'll be back next week with more tomorrow, and as always I wish you and your family the very best, though not unlike Trump, your family has also been spurned by Candace Bergen, and they're feeling pretty bad right now.