Tomorrow - Episode 94: William Turton Wants to Get Luckey

Episode Date: June 7, 2017

The year is 2117. We're all living in a new reality, a *virtual* reality, after our leader, Edgelord Palmer Luckey (and his sentient wall), destroyed planet Earth for not being caucasian or male enough. Thankfully, episode 94 has survived the century. In it, Josh and William Turton, a staff writer at The Outline, discuss Luckey's wall, the Russian hacks that probably gave us President Trump to begin with, and Vanderpump Rules. Could this apocalypse have been avoided if we'd all studied Veronica Mars? Listen in and find out. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey and welcome to Tomorrow. I'm your host Josh Butspolski. Today on the podcast we discuss Donald Trump, Russia, and Edge Lords. But first, a word from our sponsor. Whether you're a small business owner or a first time blogger, like myself, Hostgator has all the tools you need to build and host your website. Hostgator 24-7 expert support is always available to assist you via live chat or email. Anytime you have a question, honestly, sometimes I just talk to them, even if I don't have a question, I just like that they're there and they will talk to me.

They have to talk to me, actually. There's even a 45-day money-back guarantee, so if you decide it's not for you, there's no problem. You just get out of it. You've nothing to lose. Go to hosgator.com slash tomorrow and sign up and get 60% off. Support for this podcast and for me also comes from Tlenty. When Tlenty makes gelato and sorbeto, they tend to get a little overzealous. Did they need to use so many raspberries in their room and raspberries for betto that the machine broke? Did they need to try 25 different chai teas to find the perfect spice blend

for their vanilla chai gelato? Did they have to invent giant mint steepers to make their Mediterranean mint super minty? The answer to these questions, in case you're wondering is obviously no. Clearly the people Tillenty are very sick and need help. Does their obsessiveness make Tillenty gelato and sorbeto the greatest?

You be the judge. But actually it does make them the greatest. So, you know, you don't have to judge. The answer's out there. Tillenty, the delicious is in the details. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ My guest today is a young man, very young man. Some say too young. I say not young enough.

He's a talented writer, a deep thinker. Some have described him as cruel and unusual on Twitter. I'm of course talking about our new writer at the outline William Turton. Hello. William, thank you for being here. What an introduction. Did you like that introduction?

Yeah, I'm flattered. I don't know. I don't know about you. You are very young though, right? I never be talked about this. It must be annoying. No, I'm flat. I don't know. I don't know about you. You are very young, though, right? I never be talked about this. It must be annoying. It's not annoying. I don't get annoyed by people constantly bringing at my age. You don't? That sounded like sarcasm. Yeah, it was. Where are you from? So I was born in San Jose. Okay. So I only lived there for a little bit. I grew up in a suburb 30 minutes south of Richmond, Virginia, I called Chesterfield. Okay, so you're familiar with all

of the activities around Richmond, Virginia. Yeah. You probably have people in your family who are in the NSA. Definitely. You do. Well, not that I would know. I mean, they can't tell me. They can't, I think they can't.

I think they can talk about it. I just don't think they can tell you anything about what they do. So William is a tech writer, technology reporter. Although, I think, you know, here the idea was that was that, and I think you've already been doing this, but your mandate would go a bit beyond that. And I, right, how would you describe, what would you describe your scope of stuff you've talked about?

Well, I mean, my interest in journalism just goes way beyond tech, obviously. And I mean, like we're living in one of the greatest stories of the century ever happening right now in the Trump administration. Yeah. So I mean, everything attached to that is just like deeply fascinating to me. But you were.

The national security. I love stuff like that. So you were, and you did some writing on this Russia, sorry, this NSA leaker reality winner, yeah, which just to be clear is that person's actual name, right? Real name. Reality Lee winner. Yep. Which is crazy, which suggests to me, I mean, on her

Twitter account that we found she goes by Sarah, but on her Facebook, it's reality winner. Oh, so her name might be Sarah. Well, maybe she goes by Sarah. Well, have we looked her up at all? She's not unlike this Nexus. Her Facebook is reality winner. Have we, have we contacted, there must be somebody who can contact, right? Her mom's not doing interviews anywhere. Birth records? I have not looked for her birth records. Okay, I think we should. We're getting into the bottom of this.

At any rate, reality would be a bad name. It's starting to become clear that perhaps her name is actually Sarah. I don't want to do your job for you. I mean, the DOJ said her name is reality winner. They did. Okay, well, the DOJ said, I guess they have to, right? I guess. And the FBI. Yeah. No, we are. So we are living in kind of a creative

time. It's interesting, given your age, like, and I'm sorry, not to go back to that, but sure. But, um, but you're, you were a kid, a little kid, when Obama became president. Yeah. I mean, like Obama was the first real, like, political movement that I was interested in. Right, I remember being young and hating Bush, but mainly because my dad hated Bush. But the first, I can remember 2008 in that election, but that's the first one. Right, so Trump must be, I lived through Bush.

And I'm not trying to be like, I'm an old man, I'm never, but you know, but it's like, I'm familiar with a very bad president as an actual entity in my life on a day to day basis. Exactly. Whereas you have grown up in a kind of, really in a kind of utopic situation in like where you have Obama, who you know was a flawed man,

but a great, pretty great president. Actually he's a great man and a flawed president, I think. I was about to say, Josh, what do I do about Obama? No, Obama, I actually don't think he was that flawed. I actually don't really think he was that. Yeah, he took out Seth Rich. But no, I mean, so we're not just in like, so you're just like, I mean, Trump is bad in ways

that we can't even begin to process. I mean, we're all, that's like a lot of what we're trying to do is process his badness, but it's like, the whole scene is fucked up now. Yeah, in like the blink of an eye. Totally, and like when I used to do politics newswriting a few years ago, you know, I was like on all these mailing lists for like the DOJ and the FBI and like different police departments and you would kind of read them and they'd all kind of like track

and make sense and kind of work. But now just like every single bit of the Trump administration from top to bottom is just like insane. Yeah. And then you've got, so you've got Trump and then you've got all these people who have been like somehow have now are now safe and into Trump's world, like Palmer Lucky, who you have written about,

you wrote quite a bit about it, Gizmodo. Yeah, I went to Dallas to cover a trial that he testified in. Yeah, which the Zeni Max trial. Right, which they lost, right? They lost. Facebook lost. Yeah, Facebook, there was a half billion dollar judgment against them, 50 million of which Palmer was responsible for. Can you actually explain this? I don't think a lot of you will realize this. I feel like nerds know it.

But sure. But like everybody talks about like, I mean, essentially, it explains because essentially like the Oculus tech that everybody was so psyched. By the way, when I saw it at the verge, we were like, Holy shit, this is so amazing. Right. But apparently, from what I understand from talking to you and from reading on some of the stuff, it's one, like Palmer actually didn't have as much to do with it as it all seems like he did. And you can maybe correct me on that if you want. And two, that a lot of it's just stolen.

Yeah, so, I mean, the case is actually kind of complex and you have to kind of read the briefs to really understand it. A useful thing to understand is that Zenimax is the parent company of ID software in Bethesda. Bethesda that makes games like Skyrim, ID that did stuff like Doom. And so I didn't know that actually. I mean that's sort of something that's- A lot of people were like, oh I just thought this company called Zenimax was actually a patent troll. It's like no, they're this big company that owns like a holding video game publish. Yeah

Yeah, well there are parent company. We'll Zenimax is the top nobody nobody owns any max. Who's the CEO of Zenimax? Some guy who lives in Dallas, Texas. So yeah, Brando dude. Wow. Not kind of like he was very a Ultimate Robert Altman Robert Altman. Robert Altman. Okay, not the director. If only. But wait a second. So he must be very, very rich. Probably.

The company must be worth a lot of money. I.D. and Bethesda are huge studios. Right. And they had a ton of money to throw out this lawsuit. Yes. Like, you know who he's married to right? The director or the chairman and CEO? No. Linda Carter.

Wonder Woman. No, shopman. Not to be too topical. Wait, really? Really? Married 1984? You're short, it's the same Linda Carter. That's amazing.

Yeah, it's that Linda Carter. Are you serious? Yeah. That's... This is a story. That's a whole other guy. The thesis of this trial was a few things. Was Zenimax intended that,'s intended that Facebook and Oculus and Palmer lied about the origin story

of the Oculus technology? In reality, Palmer didn't do this in his parents' garage. He kind of had the basics of it, but really when he started collaborating with John Carmack, while John Carmack still worked at Zeni Max. That's where Oculus really came together That's what made it the future and while Palmer wanted to collaborate with John because remember there's this famous story of Palmer Focusing on a virtual reality form and John Carmack saying hey, this is pretty cool. I want to work with you

They signed an NDA in an agreement with Zenimax Which they argued pretty convincingly in an agreement with Zenimax, which they argued pretty convincingly in court that Palmer had violated. And they also... So in that relationship you're said to say, and John Carmack was like, yeah, come in, you got to cool tech.

Who eventually became the CTO of Oculus. Right, so John Carmack's like, this sounds cool, come and bring your stuff and then Palmer signs an NDA with Zenimax. So that they can work together. So they can work together. And it'll be kosher. But not like come here and build whatever you want.

No, no, no. It's like we're too nerds who want to work together and the company's like that's fine. Yeah. Just sign this NDA that you can't take any of the Zenny Max IP with you. Right, right. And so, and they also argued that John Carmack stole files from Zendimax when he came to go work to Oculus. Now, so this is where it gets kind of confusing because it really gets deep into like computer

forensics, which is something that a lot of juries don't understand. And go figure. Right. And the computer forensics weren't really clear cut. They could say definitively that he wiped one of his Macbooks. They could say that he downloaded some files, but it wasn't really a clear cut. Something that is seems a little bit more clear cut

is over in the Uber trial where Anthony Levin-Dowsky downloaded a bunch of files from Google before he went to Uber. That seems a little bit, but- Do they know what files? Yeah, they know exactly what files it's like plans for a self-driving car for for light art technology. We're in the Oculus trial. It was more like, well, this looks kind of fishy. Right. So right. So in that

trial was really interesting because it was the first time Mark Zuckerberg had ever testified in a trial. Yeah, he was in Dallas, Texas. He must have been so pissed. Yeah, and it became this big media event. When I went the first day, the only two national reporters that I think were there was like me and Mike Isaac from the near times. Great reporter.

Cool guy, I love him. And then the next day, it was just packed with reporters. Really? But Zuckerberg's already gone. Oh reporters. But Zuckerberg. Oh really? They missed Zuckerberg. Yeah. Should be more like Zuckerberg's there

than they got there and Zuckerberg was gone. The Zuck thing was crazy. I wrote a whole piece about this called why you didn't see any pictures of Mark Zuckerberg of the trial today. It was this carefully orchestrated thing where so you couldn't take pictures in the courtroom, you couldn't take pictures in the hallway. you couldn't take pictures in the hallway.

As Mark finished his testimony, they did something really irregular from everyone else's testimony where the court kind of stopped. Everyone stood up, security people came in, they took Mark and they like whisked him away. Wow. This is like the secret exit at the LAX, at LAX for celebrities.

Right, exactly like the secret terminal. Yeah, but for Mark. Yeah, and they, the Facebook got to use the judges entrance and exit for their vehicle. Yeah. Like Palmer, John, and their lawyers, and their PR people. Yeah. Um, we got to use the judges exit and entrance. Yeah. I actually have an interesting story that I don't think I've ever told before. Here's your chance. This is an exclusive. Tomorrow exclusives. But my editor was. We need a sound effect for this. My editor was determined.

So we had been writing this series called Palmer Watch. Palmer Lucky, nowhere to be seen. And the first time he surfaces publicly is. Because he'd been hidden away from, we should just give a little backstory to get people to know. He had been hidden by Facebook because it turned out that Palmer had spent $100,000.

No. Sorry. Yes. Okay. Jesus, man, I'm just conflating it with the fact that I don't know anything about the inauguration, but that he'd spend a bunch of money. He'd built some shadow company or something. Are you trying to adjust your volume?

The microphone. I pull it out with my foot. But you did? Yeah. I don't think it's possible. It would have The microphone. I pull it out with my foot. But you did? Yeah. I don't think it's possible. It would have been your headphones. Oh, my headphones, right? Yeah, okay.

Yeah, I think you'd podcast it before. This feels like maybe not. You're like, what's this plug? So Paul Marhead, it's spent a bunch of money on some like, he created some... Nimble America. He has some fake company for the purposes of like posting like Trump, pro Trump memes or anti-hillary memes or just ship. He wanted to prove that meme magic and ship posting were real.

That was part of the mission statement. That's a great. And he also had Milo Unopolis kind of fronting for him. Great American. Oh, he's British, sorry, but another great patriot. I never really understood. No, this is the fucking problem with my Lower he's not he can't even vote here. It's like you're fucking British shut the fuck shut the fuck up about American politics There isn't interesting what you're doing on it Britain

Got rid of you for this exact purpose is that we don't want you involved We're gonna lose Samantha B and John Oliver by that politics and Paul. Samantha B is not British. She's Canadian. Canadians I love. Come on in. Paul Margot upset with me once because I like John Oliver, but he's British. You can't avoid that shit. He's all worried about net neutrality in America,

but he's British. Anyhow, go ahead. Should we talk about the NHS? Sorry. And Paul Margot upset with me once because I described Nimble America's gamer gate come to life when the person that he was using to kind of vouch for him was Milo who claimed to fame was being the gamer gate journalist for BrightDragon.

Great journalist, great American. Right. So anyway, back to... Yeah. So Palmer had... So Palmer had been like disappeared by Facebook because they're like, wait a second, this looks really bad. I mean, Facebook is filled with bad actors. I mean, what you don't realize, you know, Peter T. L. Dean on the board, you know.

Right. But Palmer's an alt-right anime meme lord, which is a not a good lord. He's an edge lord. Yeah. Oh, totally. Yeah. He's my favorite edge lord. He's my favorite edge lord.

I have to say, like Palmer, here's the thing about Palmer, like, I had this idea in my mind, and we had had some communication and I hope he's listening to this I hope I hope he will listen to please do the interview with me Palmer We want to talk to you, but Palmer I always like took his this kind of sweet sort of shy God like kind of brilliant dude who built something that a lot of other people could my view of Palmer was Wow, it's like, this shy kid from Texas created this thing that like, I might spend my whole life thinking about virtual reality.

When I was a fucking 10 year old, I was like virtual reality is gonna be it, and it never happened. And then Palmer comes along out of nowhere and he's got this like fucking duct taped thing. So he did what you never kid, is what you said. No, I mean, I wasn't gonna do it, but nobody could, a gerundler couldn't make it happen. All these

like technologists and every company in the world, and they had like a game boy thing or whatever. I mean, they had like a, who made the headsets? We made a, uh, we made it like some game company. So we had a headset. What is it? What am I thinking about virtual boy? Virtual boy. Thank you. And, um, anyhow, but so he comes along and it's like, wow, this is like crazy genius, you know? Right. But then it turns out like he's just like a gamer gay guy with money. Right. Yeah, I don't want to blow your mind But a lot of technically smart nice guys aren't so great. No, but like, but but they're all edge lords. So I Well, you would hope that some of them aren't edge lords, right? You would hope that some of them are just like smart Interesting people who want to make great things

They got to be some ends up everyone's in the all right about Sergei. What about Sergei and Larry? They're okay. Yeah, I mean, they're not they're not all right They're not game or gate. They just want to what they just want the blood of teenagers. Oh, yeah No, they're not doing they're not blood drinkers are they? I've heard rumors a lot of teenagers. Oh, yeah, no, they're not doing. They're not blood drinkers, are they? I've heard rumors. Okay. Well, if you've heard rumors, you need to get some sources and put it into a post. I don't talk to me about rumors until we've got a story. All right. I'll say anyone who went to a monastery school gets a pass. But if you did it, okay, I'm gonna say

can sell the ghost of a monastery. I was gonna say about that. Anyway, so Palmer's in hiding in my other, and we, you know and we've been covering what are there is this Alex Dickinson. He worked with great great Australian person great. No business in America. Fantastic. I love Alex. You used to work at the post.

That's right. Was determined that I pap a picture of him that I get a picture of Palmer. So I'm like, okay, well, I guess it's going to entail finding out what hotel they stay at. The first, look at this. This is real gum shoe stuff. The first day of the trial, I go to the fanciest hotel in the area, the Omni, which is right across the street. And I sit in the lobby for like two hours and nothing happens. So I'm like, Dan, so the next day, I'm like still thinking about it. I'm like asking all the reporters. Did you think about asking someone at the hotel if he was there. I did ask someone at the hotel.

It's like, did you see? I'll just say, like, but you didn't just say, I'm here to, I need to call Palmer Lockey. Can I be connected to his name? Well, I asked the door man, I was like, did you see this kind of weird question? Like, did you see Mark Zuckerberg walking? Can you be in and go to like a front desk

go hotel and be like, I guess I need to speak to Palmer Lockey. And if he's there, they'll be like, Oh, right, right. Oh, I didn't try that because I figured I need to speak to Palmer Lockie, and if he's there, they'll be like, Oh, right, right. No, I didn't try that, because I figured, I gotta give you some reporter lessons. But, so the next day I'm asking around, I find it's other people,

but then I noticed there's a Facebook PR flag sitting next to me. Yes. And I'm kinda looking at the notes that she's scribbling, and I noticed the pen she's using. She's using a piece of paper. No, she's using a pen that was branded with the hotel that they were staying in.

That's normal, there's a lot of pens at hotels. But she had, she was writing on paper. Yeah. And she was taking notes. So I was like, Oh, snap. That hotel was right across the street in the other direction. Okay. What hotel was that? Um, it was the, um, I mean, the western or the western. Yeah. That's a nice, a western is a, is a, is a, I think I'll, I think that's nicer than an Omni.

Yeah, I could be wrong. It was nice. So I'm like, oh snap this Facebook PR flag is using the pen that's brand out of this hotel that's right in the street. This is good detective work. So I go to that hotel 20 minutes before the testimony ends. And I'm like, I'm feeling so good about this. This is definitely the hotel that they're in.

I'm like, slacking my editor. Like this is great I'm gonna get a picture so I'm like waiting right by the lobby. I know exactly where their SUV is gonna pull up and then in walks a lawyer for Facebook who had been sitting in front of me all day and So he walks up to the front desk and I'm like, oh shit, that's a lawyer for Facebook. I need to get out of here So I kind of like start walking away slowly. He turns, we make eye contact. Now remember, he'd been sitting in front of me

for eight hours that day. Why did you say I need to get out of here? Isn't that a sign that you're gonna get to see some people? I don't want them to see me. Oh, I see. He sees me. He makes eye contact. His calm and casual demeanor instantly changes.

He freaks out. Really? He starts like pointing at me to the front desk. He like gets on the phone. Wow. Yeah. And then you wearing the same gizmodo sweatshirt. I was not wearing a gizmodo hoodie.

I was gonna say, because that would have been a dead girl. That would have been a dead girl. You needed the disguise like a fake mustache in it. Like a hat or something. And I also had like really long hair at the time. Yeah. It's kind of easy to point out. I wasn't just some random.

You had a ponytail. No, but, but so he sees me and then I kind of, I'm like, oh shit, so I like get around the corner. Yeah. And like, well, I mean, they're definitely staying here, but I think my time is limited. Hey, Blonde, you're cover. Yeah, and then I see, so then this guy crosses street

that I think is Palmer lucky and I run up and it's not him and I get back into the hotel. They probably had a double or Palmer lucky double. Honestly, I'll show you the picture, it looks insane. And then I get back into the hotel and I'm like, before I even realize that I'm surrounded by security who like tells me to get the hell out. And then we're about to call the police.

So you didn't get a photo? No, I didn't, but I stuck around and I stayed across the street because they wouldn't let me stay in on the sidewalk And I saw Palmer and John standing like hotel lobby He knew that was right. Can't even get the picture. Telephoto zoom would have helped you there or Make a reservation at the hotel and be like excuse you. I'm a guest. Yeah, you could have done that That would have been good. You could definitely get expense that shit, you know My flight was leaving like hours. I feel like you're picking up a lot of good knowledge here for me

I mean, I feel like you're picking up a lot of good knowledge here for me. I know. I feel like the crash course in Veronica Mars. That's the course. Is that happening in Veronica Mars? I've never watched the show. Uh, yeah. Is it good? I learned so many talking techniques from that little team to tell you. Hey, it turned.

Have you ever considered watching Veronica Mars as a, you know, I have a, maybe we should do that as like an office bomb. We should, we should do that actually. We should all watch Veronica Mars together. Um, so have you. Maybe we should do that as like an office bonk. We should. We should do that actually. We should all watch Veronica Mars together. So have you ever watched Vanderpump rules? Every episode. I've seen a couple episodes. It's incredible.

I saw one episode. It's the best show that has ever been released. I love it. So, okay, I'm going to have to, it's like I'm going to have to part ways with you guys on this one. He is really bad. It's really bad. It's really bad. It's really bad.

Oh, it's perfect. No, I mean, there's no flow. You understand this is, but Vanderpump rules is why Trump is president. You understand that, right? No, Vanderpump rules is like correlation. It's a direct correlation between opposite. I guarantee you every Vanderpump voted for Trump. Every one of them.

That would make the show even better. They definitely did. They definitely did. Every Vanderpump cast a vote for Donald Trump. Trump and pump. I actually don't think so. I think probably just Jack. Pump and Trump.

Any Vanderheads out there. Yeah, Jacks. The guys, the Vanderpump guys are like, two, can total meet heads. All right, I don't know how many there are. I just watched them and said where they are. Like, we're going to Vegas or something. Like the part, because that's what they do.

First Tossies birthday. Yeah, something like that. That is the part. They were like what they do. First Tossi's birthday. Something like that is the final. They were just like so dot. I was like, you are so dumb. Yeah, no. It's essentially you took a bunch of people who never like finished a book

and you make them hang out together. Never finished a book. They're all gonna have a finished book. Never started. They're a fucking saw book. They don't know what a book is. One time, Jackson's therapist gave him a book and you know what he said, he goes,

I've been meaning to get into books. I saw the great Gatsby movie and it was great. You know what, you know what I mean? Yeah, okay, okay. All right, so, so let's get back to you. Let's talk about it. I like my therapist. Have you ever read a book?

I've read a couple. Have you ever heard of books? So, so now, so look, so we've got, like you've got your kind of plate pretty full. Like, there's a lot of crazy shit going on. You've got national security violations left right in center. You've got, I mean, you know, Russia, right? As a whole separate thing, like, let's take Trump out of the equation.

Russia's actively, I mean, because the thing that's interesting about this story with reality winner, we should probably talk about that a little bit, which is that, the intercept published a story about an NSA document that basically said the Russians definitely attempted to hack voting systems. It was recently pointed to the finger at the GRU. Yeah. Voting systems in Florida?

Yeah, it appears to be Florida. And we don't know if there was any. The document did not say Florida. It's a US company one, but people are kind of putting the pieces together as previous reporting. It is, and does the reports anything about what, if the hack was successful or what it, yeah, they compromised, you know, at least one person. Like a person that's part of the... That worked for this company. And usually one person is enough because then you can kind of spread

the viruses throughout the number. So we don't know, so we don't know. We don't know exactly what they got. But we don't know Florida could have been, could have been gone for Hillary. No idea. Florida was probably Hillary one Florida and it was a tampered with by Russians to have Trump.

I don't think we can say that yet. Well, you know, I think we can speculate allegedly. So what's fucked up is that the intercept published a story. I mean, they sort of, you know, it seems like they sort of dishandled the evidence that they got because it like pointed directly back to this person, like very specifically through a bunch of different ways. Right. And and and got, you know, well, I mean, obviously leaking directly back to this person, like very specifically through a bunch of different ways.

And got, you know, well, I mean, obviously leaking stuff is a year-end risk of being arrested. And she was a contractor for the NSF. She was extremely sloppy. Post-nodin. Post-nodin contractor for the NSA, extremely sloppy. One, publicly anti-Trump, right? Like very publicly.

Very publicly anti-Trump. Via Miley publicly. Very publicly anti-Trump. Via Milya and a Trump. You know, called him the orange monster, small hands type stuff. Like really personal stuff, really personal stuff. Yeah. Cause I think here's the thing about Trump, you can hate Trump for his policies. But you can pose the picture. You can pose the picture that he doesn't like of his profile.

Right. But I think it's sort of like going too low to just make fun of his looks. That's too low. Or you can pose the picture that he doesn't like of his profile. Right. But I think you, it's sort of like going too low to just make fun of his looks. That's too low. Are you kidding me? I think so. I just, that's ridiculous. It's like, you can't control how you look. He's a monster.

He's disgusting. I don't like when you could just call him fat. It's like totally fair to make fun of the appearance of someone who is deeply obsessed. I just think, I just think it, I just think it's a race to the bottom. You know, I think there's better things to attack Trump for. His policies, his brain, the things he says, the people he surrounds him, his path. It just, it makes me upset as an overweight person.

It's like, I, I just think like, it's like, she calling him a cheeto is like the, the, the, it's not effective. Sure, but I think when people call him a cheeto or like a goblin or like a small finger, a small finger, a small finger, a Bulgarian's good to get, that's like a real finger. God was good. A small finger Bulgarian's good. That's like a real sophisticated. Is that that's from spy?

That's from yeah, great and Carter. That's like a real sophisticated bird. But I think it's really just people kind of like expressing their anger at this fucking I think I think if you come up a small finger Bulgarian, you go for it. Sure. But I think all you can do is muster a cheeto. Right. You know, it's not the most original thought.

Right. You know, and also I think that he caught up a small finger Bulgarian. I don't think he actually was referencing his fingers. I think, I don't, I mean, I don't know that he, I don't know if Donald Trump was. Well, I mean, that was a regular thing in spy to make when it was small hands.

Yeah, like he, that's where that came from. And I don't know like, honestly, I haven't seen his hands up close. I don't know how small they are. They're tiny. They're tall. I mean, I've seen people small hands and I feel like it's hard to tell from TV and in photos. Well, it's not that Trump has small hands is that he's very insecure about his small hands. Well, no, they're, I think they are probably pretty small. Oh, yeah. But it's how small is the question. But is it short-fingered vulgarian or small? I think it's short-fingered, right? Yeah. At any rate, but anyhow, so getting back to Trump, you're sorry, Russia.

So Russia hacked the election. Yeah, I mean, what's the difference? Now, so you've got the hacked election. The NSA, so the NSA thing is crazy. The story of the intercept story is really crazy because I feel like the story about the fact that we've had a natural Russian hack of our voting systems has been overshadowed by like this person. Well, we don't know if it was successful, attempted.

Well, attempted, something, right? Isn't it? The fact that they're trying is crazy. Well, they have, they definitely, I mean, I guess I can't say, I can't say the pure truth. Well, I mean, we can't say the pure truth. We can't say the pure truth. We can't say the pure truth.

We can't say the pure truth. We can't say the pure truth. We can't say the pure truth. We can't say the pure truth. We can't say the pure truth. We can't say certainly have had some impact on the outcome of the election. Oh, of course. Absolutely. I mean, do you think that the end of it gets true? Yeah, I think so. I mean, the election wouldn't have been the same if WikiLeaks wasn't repeatedly releasing jump into those emails every week.

Do you think WikiLeaks is an apparatus of the Russian government? No, I think Julian Assange just would like to be anyone's puppet if it will give him attention. Do you think Julian Assange has been compromised in any way that's substantial uh... he's personally compromised in his transparent desire for attention he's so deeply obsessed with you know people paying attention to him and him being relevant do you think julienne sange is irrelevant

no you usually relevant you think he is yeah i mean he's the publisher of a key leaks yes uh... he's the person who works a wiki leaks the play. Yeah, he runs the Twitter account, by the way. I don't know, I don't think a lot of people know this is a WikiLeaks Twitter account where Julian talks in third person all the time, that's him. He's personally running it. Yes.

He's tweeting from it all the time. I get that I tweeted from the outline accounts sometimes. Number of anti-Semitic tweets have come out of that account. But I'm always like, well, he's obviously saying this. WikiLeaks will always be like, this is a staff account. It's like Julian, shut the fuck up. It's like, we know it's you. You're at the embassy. You don't have a lot to do right You're tweeted. Yeah the Ryan Hulley and account is a staff account to our entire

Tire all sets all hands on that what yeah, but um, okay, so anyhow So you've got so so any of that story's crazy and now it's been kind of overshadowed So many have for you, but you've got Russia, and then you've got Trump. And all of Trump's many bad policies, and I mean, you've then you've got the Senate neutrality thing, which is, I mean, it's almost like Trump flipped a switch, right? And everything got bad immediately. Right, well, I mean, Trump has no real ideas or policy.

He just has attracted the very lowest scum possible, by having a disastrous campaign by the very end of it. The only people he was left with was like the worst people in politics. Corey Lewandowski. You all have the most off-the-ass. Jeff Sessions. Wait, yeah, Corey Lewandowski is, I mean, he's like a failed, now like a failed lobbyist.

But well, he's trying to come back now. Jeff Sessions, he's a racist piece of garbage. Right. Steve Bannon, he's like a psychopath. It's loaded, psychopath. I guess that's kind of weird calling him loaded, but he does seem unhealthy. I'm not saying like he's fat. I'm saying he seems like there's something wrong with him.

He's deeply unwell. Like, like whatever is in his heart has come out into his body. Right. There's a retargetment Kellyanne Conway. Kellyanne Conway is great. I love her. She's a great person. I mean, she did coin alternative facts. That was pretty good.

Yeah. And Trump coin fake news, right? Isn't that his? Yeah. No, no, no. That's the original, well, in the original German, it's Luke and press, but yeah. You see Hitler being hit to the party. Yeah.

That's what I'm saying. I don't do you think? When Hitler was an inventor, I love ways. You know, people don't want to talk about it. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. I don't do things. When Hitler was an individual, a lot of ways. You know, people don't want to talk about it. Yeah. The classic, the classic Hitler argument, you hear every once in a while. You know, he was a bad guy. He was a brilliant military strategist. Or he was such a good orator. Yeah. Yeah. He actually was a vet sharing who loved his dogs.

And he liked to paint. Yeah. Yeah. You know, by the way, speaking of painters and leaders, I just saw George Bush's book, Portraits of Courage. No, no, that's where you're fucking wrong. It's bad. No, his paintings are amazing. So you're saying George had to be Bush's good. I'm saying, I'm saying, I don't care how you feel

about George W. Bush as a person. I'm saying his fucking paintings are good as hell. What? No, they're not. Yes, they are. What do our critics say? Do you know what? I want to say this. The apprentice, a very, very watchable television show.

The apprentice was very entertaining. Okay, yeah. The best form of Donald Trump was when he was watching the host. The apprentice. I want to hear some art critics on George W. Bush's paintings. They are amazing. I was watching the apprentice when Obama cut in to say they had killed the sum of in love. The irony.

And then immediately cut back and... I was watching the apprentice when Joan Rivers called some woman trailer trash, common Las Vegas poker player, or... Really? What is this? What am I looking at? These are some of portraits of Kurt. What did the reviews say?

Look at that. That's awesome. You guys, yeah, these are great of portraits of Kurt what are the reviews say that look at that that's all you guys Yeah, these are great. These are great. I'm sorry. I fucking hate George W. Bush. I do better. No I'm telling you I can't you're wrong these paintings are right go search for portraits of courage reviews reviews. I want to hear art critic. I want to exactly I think they're amazing. I was almost I almost bought the book and then I was like I was like I'm not gonna do this but I think they're very good I was almost bought the book and then I was like, I was like, I'm not gonna do this. But I think they're very good. Anyhow, so then.

The New York Times says it was a pretty good, they're pretty good. Well, the New York Times is a conservative right wing publication that's a war, war hawk, war mongering, Hillary. Climate denial. Climate denying, Hillary destroying publication. Anyhow, um, that's all true. So you just wrote the story, um, about Palmer lucky, getting back to him. I mean, this is then

we get into all the policy stuff. And this is sort of related to that. But Palmer is now has a new startup. Does it have a name? Uh, no, it doesn't not that we know. Should we name it? I don't think so. What do was the, there's a photo of him. He was like, it was like the cover of the movie. It's famous, it's called. You saw his cosplay, right? Yeah, at the cosplay, by the way, I think, is one of those things where it's like,

you can make fun of Paul Mervor, but you can't just, you know, you can't just, you know, you can't just, you can't just, you know, you can't just, you know, you can't just, you know, you can't just, you know,

you can't just, you know, you can't just, you know, you can't just, you know, you can't just, you know, you can't just, you know, you can't just, It's called. You saw his cosplay, right? Yeah. The cosplay, by the way, I think is one of those things where it's like you can make fun of Paul over cosplay, but like he's doing more horrible things than dressing up. And by the way, I feel kind of like it's sad because he's not dumb, right? Or is he dumb? I don't know. One of the greatest minds for a generation lost to the alt-right, lost to gamer gate. Yeah, I don't know. I mean gamer gate so it's so insanely

lame. But the thing is like Palmer just grew up obviously on like forums and interact culture. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, but I did too, but like I didn't turn into Palmer, lucky edge lord. Right. I'm a different kind of edge lord. Yeah, a Jewish socialist liberal edge lord. Are there any edge lords who are like into it? But you grew into adulthood before internet culture became a lot of all-right shit. But that's interesting. But we talked about this a little bit

because I was like, oh, I get it. Like, he found with a bad group of people, but there's also bad ideas and good ideas. And like, you've got to have a back. Like, people who are like, I don't want to say raised well, but there are people bad ideas and good ideas. And you've got to have a back, like people who are like, I don't wanna say raised well, but there are people who are able to discern what is like bad and what is good. And it's clear, like he's not able to discern

what is like bad, bad people. Well, I think a lot of the gamer game, oh right people are like lonely people who need a collective, you know, and being able to like have these big enemies in the world, like people that have typically rejected them, like the mainstream media or like women generally, you know, is like a great kind of, as a kind of, it's like a great kind of bonding thing for them. I always think like when I think about people like Richard, Richard Spencer, thank you. He's so forgettable.

Richard Spencer and Milo to some extent. And I assume Palmer is like into just white people as well. Like he's like anti, I don't know all of his policies, but my assumption is that the gamer gay people are all like kind of. Palmer's, the easiest way to somewhat, Palmer's politics is like libertarianism to the extreme. Yeah. But I think that libertarianism

is basically totally a bullshit. It's politics for a white dude. Unworkable. It's an unworkable, yeah, it's an unworkable. It's unworkable only for, I mean, unless you are like in the dominant position in society, I have always been. And then it's like an amazing idea.

It's like just do what they want. Right, it's when literally the only obstacle in your life is the government. Right. It's a really good way to think about it. But before the libertarianism, oh, the racism thing. Right. But I always think when I think about all right people

who are a bunch of racists, I always think like what? Do not, it's like do not see how boring, just like forget all the other stuff. Like the world would be so boring if it was just a bunch of white people. Like you would be. But they do hear that and they feel left out. Like especially my side.

Sorry, while people don't create culture, they don't create anything of value. My dad always says like don't make me into the villain because he doesn't feel like he actively has done anything racist. When you say like America's a racist country, I think people like Palmer are like, but I've never had any advantage.

I was bullied and I was left out. And so when they stumble into internet culture, it's not like Buffy forums and like Tumblr. They stumble into 40. I just had no argument with some people at the code conference about this, which actually I had to walk away. Nobody should name them.

No, they weren't anybody. It wasn't anybody of no, it's two random people. It was two random people I met there whose names I actually don't know, to walk away. Nobody. You should name them. No, they weren't anybody. It wasn't anybody of no, it's two random people that I. It wasn't better. It was two random people that I met there whose names I actually don't know, to be honest with you. And it was like late in the evenings they have like drinks and stuff at the code conference and like people sort of you know end up getting pretty. Is the code conference bad for humanity?

It's not. I think it's, I mean, to me it felt out of step with what's going on in the world. It's like, like, the mischilling of phone on stage is not interesting or cool anymore. What do you think of the Hillary interview? I thought it was, I thought that some of the stuff she said, I was like, yeah, you sound like a sane, rational person who I wish was president. And then some of the stuff I was like, I feel like you could be better at talking about your, like, not that I need her to be like,

yeah, it was all my fault or whatever, because I don't really, because I think at this point, like it's interesting to talk about who's, who was to blame, but like, for sure. I'm just so sure. It's interesting to hear someone go like, well, our numbers look good in Wisconsin and like, but it's like also like, you could be like, you know,

Neely from the verge astray, like, why didn't you go to, I thought that was a good question. Yeah, it's like, why did you go to Wisconsin? And like, her answer was like, we thought the numbers look good, but I would have been like, we should have gone. I would have been like, yes, at this point, I'd have been like, you know what, the numbers look good,

and we thought we were good there, but the truth is, we weren't. We should have, we should have had a larger margin, and then even with this stuff, it would have, you know, so had we gone there, she's like, you know, I overlooked it. I wish we had done that. Or I wish we had spent more time there. That's easy, right? Exactly. And know, so had we gone there, she's like, you know, I overlooked it. I wish we had done that.

Or I wish we had spent more time there. Right. Exactly. And like no one can fault her for that. And so I'm not, I don't think Hillary is like the devil or something. I think that Hillary is like a bizzillion times better than Donald Trump anyway, you fucking slice it. Sure.

You know, I also don't think Bernie would have won. I think there are lots of reasons where Bernie would have lost very badly. But um, but I think that, uh, yeah. So it was like, I think she's like hearing her talk about the climate change stuff, like the Paris Accord, she got really fired up and I was like, this is good. I was actually like, I feel like Hillary has spent so much time trying to be, and I think this is like real. I think she spent a lot of time in politics with people telling her the way

she acts as the wrong way and trying to act the right way. I think she spent so much time doing it that she acts super fake. She talked in that interview about how, you know, wouldn't her, you know, speakers before her that were male would come up and pound the podium and people like, wow, there's so powerful. And like, when she reacted the same way, they're like, oh, she's a bitch. Yeah, I just think, yeah, I mean, she's been, it's just hard for her to. I mean, no man, no man, I mean, I heard a couple of days before the election, I was listening to the BBC, like one of their morning shows or something. And they went to, they were talking to, I think it was they had a thing, it was either

BBC or MPR, they had a thing where they talked to couples who were split where the woman was voting for Hillary or the man and the man was voting for Trump. And the man was like saying stuff that like doesn't even remotely have anything to do with politics. He was like, when I hear her talk, I just hear like an angry school mom talking, that's what I hear. And like those were his complaints about Hillary. And it's like, that's the reality check,

is that people were, there were people who were like, I'm not voting for it because she reminds me of a bitchy woman that I don't like. And it's like, that's not a complaint. It was pretty dumb for the DNC to run one of the most hated politicians in all of it. She's also one of the most loved politicians. Sure.

I mean, the flip side of it is that she's actually one of the most loved politicians. And there are a ton of people. I mean, was it smart of it is that she's actually one of the most love politicians. And like, there are a ton of people. I mean, was it smart of the GOP to run one of the most hated people in America? Probably not, but he still won. The point. Well, they didn't really have a choice. The GOP didn't run.

I mean, they didn't have it. That's true. They didn't run him in the same way as it was. He did steamroll over. They were trying to run like a Scott Walker. I mean, imagine a situation where you have all of these like 16 fucking candidates. You know, you have like 16 candidates and some of them you're like, they're pretty good. Like jet bushes, you know, anointed or Paul Ryan or who I mean Paul Ryan wasn't in, but no,

they all suck. They all suck. There's this famous, I think of this all time. Do you know this far side cartoon? It's very famous. It's like a bunch of, um, a scientist looking into it like a two way mirror. And there's a room full of like kind of weirdo's and they're like one of the scientists saying to the others like they're all fools gentlemen but

exactly what kind of fools are they and I think about this all the time particularly when it comes to things like GOP candidates every one of them was wonderfully flawed in some way like like bedcars is a distinct flawed character compared to Ted Cruz who also has it. I like very distanced I've lost. But just imagine from their perspective being completely steamrolled by a guy who was like who didn't even want to be president. Who didn't want to be president and is just such a total bullshit artist like so full of complete shit like it's crazy actually. I mean it it's actually, you know, and it's nice to silver lining that all those evil people were like routinely humiliated

at all times. I feel great that Jeb Bush felt awful. I felt great when Trump made fun of Ted Cruz's wife. Like they all deserve it, you know? Yeah, just like the stakes, I wish the stakes were slightly less high. Yeah, I'm happy for Ted Cruz to be humiliated. Yeah, I love it.

But like, this is one of the things I remember really distinctly when Ted Cruz dropped out of the race. Like I remember. Hit his wife in the face. Yeah, well, one of the first things that happened was that BuzzFeed put up a meme, a loop of him elbowing her in the face or whatever. Yeah, it's great. It's great.

But I remember thinking to St. Leon, I'm like, oh, cool. Like, we made a meme out of how hilarious Ted Cruz is. But like, also, he just fucking dropped out of the race. And now it's like Donald Trump is the nominee. He's going to be the guy. And that is the bigger story, you know, anyhow, that's a whole thing. But I think it was, I mean, every stage of it was very scary and didn't feel great. So you had to find those moments of Ted Cruz bumping his life in the face. This is the first election that you voted in. You didn't vote.

I voted in the primary and I voted in this election. Yeah, but I'm saying the first presidential election is. It is. Yeah, yeah. How did that feel? What did it feel empowering? As a new voter? It was signed.

Did you go with friends? No, I went by myself. You did. I went before work. A solo voting trip. Yeah. Interesting. I voted for Bernie in the primary. You got, so, yeah, so. When I lived in Virginia a solo voting trip. Yeah, interesting voted for Bernie in the primary You got so yes, when I lived in Virginia so did I

And they I got kind of a little bit of a glare when I asked for the Democratic ballot I was you know like where people lived off of farms in Virginia, so Is Bernie threatening to them? Well, I think I just asked for the Democratic ballot. Oh, they were just upset that you were a dumbass. You sure interesting Um, okay, so anyhow, we, we only have a little bit of time, but I want to talk about this quickly. You do this story about Palmer Lockies, new startup, which is we doesn't have a name.

We're going to call it wall tech. So he's building an AR, a virtual border wall. Yeah, so explain the tech. Can you come up with a tech angle? So here's what we know about the tech. and this is all coming from the New York Times. This so Palmer wants to like attach cameras to telephone poles that will be able to like analyze the ground and be able to differentiate from, you know, a person crossing the border from like a coyote crossing or something. Well, this is easy to fool already. Right.

Just like a coyote and like sort of move like a coyote. And like sort of the boot like a coyote. Basically, it's like why need a wall when we could just have some camera watching it all times. And I guess like, it wouldn't shock me a pulmonary didn't think this far that like, a camera means that, you know, someone who works for the DHS is gonna have to come and find them and like,

capture them and like capture them and like arrest them. Instead, we're like, God, you know, a wall might even be a little bit more humane in that it just make it hard for you to get over. But in this scenario that Paul Merced playing some, you know, camera system will identify them and then what, a DHS officer has to like, race down in a truck and then arrest an entire family or something like that.

Yeah, I assume what they would do is they would have like a drone that shoots tranquilizer darts. I know. I mean, I think you need to think this through a little bit more. Huge, I think. If they have, if they have assisted the kid pin point with like laser Curacy, then a drone comes down and either kills shoots blows the person up immediately on contact Just as like a detonates a bomb on them or like a small missile like a tiny little missile or is like a tranquilizer And then they're just collected. Yeah, it'll do facial recognition Analyzer tweets see if they send any me to eat the Donald Trump. Yeah, I decided to punish I don't the funny thing is like an like, I get that there's like drugs coming over the border, you know, like, I understand that.

But, you know, I, they're also are not really people coming, I mean, people aren't like dying at this point, to get into America. Like, there's a lot of people leaving America, but they're not leaving operations at an all-time low. And people are going back to over of people are going back to Mexico. People are going back to Mexico. Like if you want to transport a bunch of drugs,

like taking them across, like land is not really the greatest. You're taking a plane or a boat. Yeah, I mean, let's be honest, you know, there's a ton of fucking corrupt border people who are involved in this smuggling of drugs. This is not happening, like there's some guys with backpacks full of weed that are running across the border. Like, that's not how it's happening.

And anyway, so we live in a, like, a, basically, a cartoon. We live in a comic book. I think the version of reality, comic books actually seem more realistic at this point. The thing that we should always talk about with this startup, because I bet it's, I feel strongly that it's probably gonna be a thing, is that just, the tech just doesn't seem plausible. Like it would work.

Do you think there's any chance that Palmer's just this whole thing is just an elaborate troll? Absolutely not. Palmer's really serious. We live that these days. We don't hear a lot about we. He's getting more Nazi tattoos, man. He's banned off Twitter. But that's not it. But the Nazi tattoos are just a hilarious troll that he's doing now. He's like actually a Nazi. No, no, no, that's what he wants you to think, but he's his nonsense. But the Nazi tattoos are just a hilarious troll that he's doing. No, he's like actually an aunt. No, no, no, that's what he wants you to think, but he's trolling you. This is like how people write about people on the alt-right and shit now. They're like, I built a gas chamber. Yeah. Oh, I think you just lost the car, my chest. Yeah. Got you. Troll. Yeah, exactly. They're like, they're painting

swastikas on a synagogue. It's like, but it's a, it's post-modern. It's ironic is what we're doing, it's irony. Don't you get it? Motherfucker. That's like the new argument where people are like, no, no, no, it's like kind of a new, like weirdly liberal argument where it's like. Being explicitly racist is funny, actually.

Yeah, exactly, anyhow. And we live in a great world, I'm very happy. And so I'm very happy that you're here covering this world for the outline. You've got something coming tomorrow. Some hot stuff. Well, I guess this will be up on the day. Just come in and have some of the outline of tomorrow.

Remaster the outline of the story. You'll come in and all this stuff out. What do you have coming? What is the story? So the story is about the history of microdots, which were part of the way that. Immune LSD. No. Part of the way that... Immune LSD. No.

Part of the way that... You must have hit some searches when you search microdose. I did find some things about microdosing. Maybe we should do that in an office experiment. We should do some... We should do LSD.

Do LSD and watch Verotic Amarters. Yeah. I think that's the... No, that's the... That's an outline party I could get down with. I am definitely not. I can think if there are things... By the way, I love all the people here, but I can,

there are, that sounds very unpleasant to me. Like, to be an ass in, with like everybody here feels like I feel like it would just be too intense. I think we would all like laugh and cry. I think you're wrong. 100% right about that. It would be so much fun. I think that's a great way to leave it.

Anyhow, check out Williams, micro.story. It's up today on the outline. Williams, thank you so much for coming here, for coming all the way over from the desks over there into our podcast booth. You'll have to come back for when next time you break a huge story. Cool. And you'll have to chat with me all about it. We'll get an exclusive interview. I will. Okay, thanks. Thanks Josh. Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back soon with more. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best.

Though I understand your family is staying at a hotel and William Turton is waiting outside to take their picture and put it on a website.