Tomorrow - Episode 97: Dressing with Jesse Thorn

Episode Date: July 18, 2017

**If you downloaded this episode and heard silence midway through, it's fixed now, and you should re-download the episode. Apologies for the issue!** On this week's episode of Tomorrow, Josh sits down with Jesse Thorn, a modern renaissance man of the highest order. You may know him from Bullseye, Jordan Jesse Go!, Judge John Hodgman, and Put This On. The pair discuss journalism, his Maximum Fun network, how to train monkeys, 90s sitcoms, and menswear fashion. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm up in the shelter. Sorry. Drinking shelter on microphone. That's very unprofessional. I'm sorry. Just wait. You're going to be you're going to be burping. Good question.

Really? If I know one thing, it's that you should drink flat water on microphone. You know, this is like 60% fart sound effects. Just in case you got to have that. 60% fart sound effects, 40% real burps. That's right. It's a real gastrointestinal adventure. Hey and welcome to tomorrow.

Today on the podcast we discuss Tommy Bahama, Objectivity and Gothenages. But first, I'll work for my sponsors. If you're feeling the pain of having outdated technology, count on Atlantic.net for the latest firewall, intrusion detection, backup solutions, disaster recovery, and virtualization. Atlantic.net is a hosting solution provider that features HIPAA compliance for healthcare, PCI compliance for e-commerce, and dedicated hosting for ad tech. Made to manage in the USA, Atlantic.net provides dedicated cloud-managed co-location and hybrid hosting. So whether you're starting a new project or not getting the

results you want from your current providers, Atlantic.net has solutions to help you succeed. With full yard of the services and 23 years in business and six data centers foreign the US, one in Canada and one in the UK, they won't let you down. Atlantic.net, simple, fast, reliable server hosting since 1994. Visit Atlantic.net to learn more. Yes, you got it. It's Atlantic.net simple, fast, reliable server hosting since 1994. Visit Atlantic.net to learn more. Yes, you got it. It's Atlantic.net. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUT OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUT host, a producer, runs the maximum fun podcast network, is the founder of Put This On, which is a blog about clothing, and he's an all around wonderful guy. I'm of course talking about Jesse Thorn.

Jesse, thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Did you, do you, I assume you love that intro? Very kind. Yeah, almost two kind. You're an expert in podcasting. You're one of the first podcasters in the world. When did you start pod? What was your first podcast? I started podcasting in 2004 when they didn't

even have the hadn't even invented the iPod yet. Yeah, it was literally I would download podcasts to my computer, then transfer them manually to a Rio brand MP3 player. Is this true there? I think there was an iPod in 2004. I think iPod existed. I have been podcasting since before iTunes supported podcasting. Yeah. Which was a nightmare.

So nightmare. Yeah. For everyone. Yeah, the original thing that I podcast was my radio show, which is now called Bullseye. At the time, it was called The Sound of Young America. Yeah. And basically, my idea at the end of 2004 and beginning of 2005 was that if I could get 50 or 100 people to listen to it, then that seemed worth it. And how many did you get? 50 or 100 people to listen to it, then that seemed worth it. And how many did you get?

50 or 100. You're like, it's worth it. But you have a crazy, there's so much that I want to talk to you about, and I hope that I can get to some of it, but I think you have a really interesting career. You're like a multi-instrumentalist internet person, which is my favorite kind. You don't just do one thing. There are some people that like, I'm a vlogger, you can find me on YouTube, I'm going to be reviewing, you know, I don't know, gadgets or whatever.

And that's their whole deal, or like, I'm a skateboard enthusiast anyhow. But you are like, you have a maximum fun, which is your creation, correct? Yeah, I would say that my brand, Josh, is having a job that's difficult to explain at cocktail parties. That's great. I totally get that, and I'm excited about discussing it with you,

because I'm not in any way trying to compare myself to you because that would be foolish, but I know the feeling of having a hard time describing what you do for a living. So you are the founder of Maximum Fun, a podcast network. You work with great talents like John Hodgman, very funny guy.

That's true. You have several podcasts that you do, like you're just like a guy who does shows, right? You've got the turnaround where you interview interviewers. That's correct. That's correct. It's a, that's sort of like a, that's my hot new project. It's a, it's a dozen or so part show where I do in-depth interviews with interviewers. Then I do two comedy podcasts, one called Jordan Jesse Goh with my good friend, the comedy writer, Jordan Morris. That has been going for more than 10 years now and remains moderately successful.

And then, as you mentioned, I work with John Hodgman, who's another old friend of mine, who folks probably know from his work on the Daily Show, or as an actor or as a writer. But John and I do a show called, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, where he is a judge of real life disputes, and I am the bailiff. I'm not accredited law enforcement.

I'm according to a thing that I literally had to fax to a badge manufacturer in order to get the badge that I made for my stage costume. Oh, you have a badge, that's nice. I have a badge, but I had to certify that I was not gonna use it to impersonate law enforcement. That's good. I think that's reasonable actually.

I wish that we had as much of a strict assistant for getting a gun because we stop a lot of crime. And then I also, I also run a menswear blog called Put This On that has, we used to make videos, it's been a while since we've made videos, but we used to make videos that I hosted and I make accessories and sell vintage things through them. What do you mean, make accessories? I have a lot of jobs.

What is the accessories part? Give me a, like a belt. We have a pocket square subscription service. Okay, what's that called? It's called the Put This On Gentleman's Association. And then we also have a shop called the Put This On Shop where we sell in addition to caps, scarves, and pocket squares that we make,

also vintage items that I buy. Yeah, and sell. Well, this is the most interesting, and what about bulls-eye? Did we mention bulls-eye? Oh, yeah, and I host a show for NPR. Remember that other thing? You do.

Yeah. My college radio show now, more than 15 years later, is a show on NPR called Bullseye, where I do in depth interviews with people from the world of arts and culture. Right. Okay. That's sort of what this is. So the table has been turned on you. But I want to have a put this on first.

Sure. Because I am a put this on, like I know put this on separate from you. I actually didn't know that you were the put this on guy until, you know, we booked you for the show. And it was in the, you know, some of the material I got about you. And I was like, this is crazy because put this on, I've been looking at for years and I know it intimately and I'm constantly trying to put things on.

And tell me about what it, that doesn't fit. I mean, to be perfectly honest doesn't map. To you're like, I do this podcast, this podcast, this other podcast, I run a podcast network. And also, I have this accessories company, and I tell you what to buy on eBay in men's clothing. So tell me how that happened. I think it would also be fair to say that my career is a foul-mouthed comedian, doesn't track with my secondary career as serious public radio interviewer. So there's a lot of pieces that don't come together.

I mean, why did my wife marry me? She's much better looking than I am. Let's talk about that person too. Let's, you dated her since you were 17. In congruence. Yes, I think the, if you want the actual answer to why my wife fell in love with me and eventually married me.

It's because we went to arts high school together and I was the only straight guy around. Wow. So just walk up the head, the rest of the show. The only head of the show. So you just got lucky. This is what you're saying.

Yeah. And you told her at some point, you're like, I won't get somebody I'm gonna have a blog where I talk about eBay items that are available in one size as they're in. Well, with that, I mean about eBay items that are available in one size as they're in. Well, with that, I mean, I've always been interested in fashion and men's style. It's always been one of my greatest interests.

And there's not a lot of room for that on my NPR show. I mean, occasionally a little bit of it will slip in here or there, but it's not really, for one thing, it's very visual. For another thing, it just doesn't fit in that well with what I do on the air there. It doesn't have anything particularly to do with being fake bail if on a comedy court show. Well, but you would sell this.

You did exactly. Exactly. So, basically, what happened is, years ago, I was hanging out with my friend Adam Lissagore who now runs a big tech video company called sandwich video and he was working as an editor at this company and his most recent high profile gig had been operating the predator cam and one of the alien versus predator movies because he was the only person who could operate a camera he's the only person on the set of this movie

who could operate a camera wasn't in the cinematography union, which you couldn't be in the cinematography union. A union member couldn't be in the alien versus predator suit. And then also was short enough to fit inside the predator. So he had that job. But anyway, I was short. I would never have guessed that. Yeah, I was hanging out with him

and I was thinking like, how could I, I had wanted to make media around menswear, but I thought it should probably be video because of how visual it is. And I wanted somebody who could help me maintain a particular tone, which is to say, I think, with put this on. And what we do, our goal is to be both respectful of men and their aesthetic tastes and choices that let and also be friendly and pleasant in a way that not all fashion media is.

So like our idea was that there had to be something besides either of course you love runway fashion and dress that way and spend all of the money in the world and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And the other option which is like, we're just guys, we're dumb. Our girlfriend gets us dressed. Right.

And there was, had to be something that was, that like included some, they included some like how-to stuff, but also wasn't demeaning like a beer commercial. Right. And so that's what put this on came from. I thought, you know, I'd like for it to be kind of funny, but not at the expense of liking clothes. And I knew Adam was a director. I was like,

Adam, do you want to try and make some videos? We made some videos, and I thought, well, if we made some videos, we should probably have a website. And maybe a blog would help us retain the audience in between the episodes, because we're not going to be able to cut these more than one or two a month. So I started the blog and when I started it, it's by far the most successful thing that I've ever done upon launch. There was a real audience for it. I'm still doing that, but I don't even know five or seven years ago. It's been around a long time, something like that.

And, and, you know, the blog is still one of the biggest menswear blogs in the world. And we have, it has a professional staff and it's really awesome. I'm very, I'm very proud of it in my association with that. But here's the strange thing. And correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe I am. Is there a put this on podcast?

No, we've never made a put this on podcast. Because I don't know what we've talked about, but I don't know what it is, like talking about fashion is boring. Looking at fashion is interesting. So yeah, it's one of those things where it's almost, it's like making a podcast about paintings. Like sure, you can describe the brush work,

but it's not the same as just looking at the painting. It's the same way I feel whenever there's a New Yorker article about a painter, and there's like one or two illustrations in the 12-page article, and I'm like, I just wanna see this picture that you're talking about. That's how I think I would feel

if I was listening to a menswear podcast. Because you'd be talking about like an mascot or something. I don't know if you do ask, it's probably not, but you'd be talking about two ask, it's right now. Are you doubled up? Double up. Is that a thing? One up top and one down below.

If you know what I'm talking about, I don't know what that means. The lower ass got, that makes sense. It's an example of my brands not fitting together well. I like the idea, though, of pants that have some like a cleavage area for, that makes room for an ass got. Right. Like, the bell.

Instead of going straight across, they kind of dip down the way a shirt does like a v-neck. It's a v-neck in your crotch, and there's an ask God spot right there. I like that. You know about the idea of dressing when making pants. It's when someone, when a tailor is making pants for you, one of the questions they generally ask is to which side do you dress? Which means if you're a man,

which way your stuff goes? Yeah, which direction do they get? Which direction do they get? So the penis lays in. Yeah, so they can make allowances for that in dressing you. Or if they don't ask, they're noting it. And straight down. You gotta straight down. Well straight down, then you're gonna need

a third leg on your pants. Or you get a little small. Or a little small. Or go straight down. Well straight down then you're going to need a third leg on your pants. Or you have a little small. Or a little small for the ass-gott, area for the ass-gott, you know. A small, free-eared leg. A free-eared leg in the center. Okay, so it's, but you love fashion. Not enough to podcast about it, but you're a big fan of it. You have, and how often are you actually contributing to put this on? I mean, are you like, hey, there's a, I mean, you're not actually still finding stuff like insane. Go get this size 40 military jacket. Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's actually the thing that I do the most. Yeah, well, we have, as you alluded to, one of the things on put this on is we have this list of stuff that we find on eBay. Stuff like suits made by now out of business, saddle rotailers, things that you wouldn't know to search for on eBay. Vintage military jackets,

as you said. Yeah. See a lot of things. Yeah, we do it once or twice a week and I actually contribute a pretty significant portion of those. And that's because even now, when I'm feeling like nervous or bored, or I just want to take a break from my regular work, just kind of putzing around in the vintage section of eBay is definitely a hobby of mine. So as I do that, I'm grabbing things that I think are particularly interesting and dropping them into this Google document that we share.

And then they end up in the roundup. Like I have a feed reader, this is how deep it goes. And I, by the way, we've all already alienated anyone who started listening to this show and doing hard, you know. Well, luckily it was barely anybody to start with, so we're all set. But I have in my feed reader, I have literally like a thousand-ish saved searches on eBay. And so, you know, when someone posts a deej and Skinner suit or someone posts an Arnie's forestier or forestier, forestier, I guess, because

there's an e on the end of it. My French pronunciation isn't strong jacket. Then I see it. And if it's cool, I drop it into the, I drop it into those eBay roundups. We put a lot of work into those. It's not just, you know, we don't just search for the name of a designer and call it a day. Right. Now these are deep cuts. Chestnut-colored, frank clague briefcase. Yeah. That you're fine. Clague makes really high quality leather goods. That's the kind of thing

that I have a collection of bags. I keep just keep buying bags more and more bags in the search for the perfect bag. I don't know if you have this problem or not. But that's the thing I'm like, oh, I'll buy that probably. It's probably sold already. Let's see. I drove to Orange County some years ago to buy from a weird lawyer guy in an office park,

set of three handmade British suitcases. What brand? They are globe-trotter? No, no, no, they're better than globe-trotter. Globetrotters are terrible. I bought a set and they all have holes in them. But it'd be no huge way somebody doesn't do it. I'll think of it in a second, but the problem is that you can't, I mean, you can't bring them on an airplane because they're leather, so they're both extraordinarily heavy and extraordinarily ill-suited to the baggage handling practices of a commercial airline. And so you either have to have fly private

or just be on an ocean liner with just like a team of guys behind you carrying everything for you. And so they're mostly just sitting in my house and I look at them and think about how I have them. Right, that's, but I mean sometimes that's the best thing in life is just to have something, right? Not to actually, you don't have to use it.

But this is interesting because I think it does tap into, you know, there's certainly an audience, it's like, we got a little, there's like some money to burn. You want to look good, but you don't necessarily, there's not an audience, it's like, we got a little, there's like some money to burn. You wanna look good, but you don't necessarily, there's not a great, like my father, not saying he's a bad dresser or anything, but you know, being dressed up or looking nice

was not a big, he wasn't like, man, I gotta look great today. And I feel like I'm bad-mouthing my father. He's a fine-looking person. I'm just saying that. But he's kind of an asshole. He's, he actually is kind of an asshole. Very cruel man.

But, but wonderful. But anyhow, but so it's, you know, like I didn't, I got no tips on how to dress. And then there's like Esquire does a thing. It's like the black book and it's like, it's just a fashion spread. Like it's just new stuff you can buy. And that actually doesn't make clothing.

Like that's not how you dress well. Like just buying the new stuff. Because for us ultimately, it came out of, I am a very old, I'm the oldest of millennials, and my parents are older baby boomers. And for them and their generation, I mean, my father was a professional veterans peace activist for much of his life. For that generation, rejecting the cultural

standards that had been the previous 70 years of America was was Derogor and a big part of that was, you know, throw away your necktie, right? But what it led to was a generation of guys in Tommy Muhammad shirts. And so I think that the generation after that was not burdened with the generational conflict that the baby boomers had with their parents. And so for folks in Generation X or Millennials, young men looking good is not seen as a symptom of being complicit with the man. And that is the man with a capital M. Yeah. And so, you know, part of our goal was to say like, yeah, it's's okay to it can even be subversive if that's what you're interested in to look good and here's some

Here's some ideas about how to do it And again like not in a way that presumed that men were stupid or lacked aesthetic values But also not in the way that they do it in those magazines, which tends to be, you know, those, we posted a great article by a woman who was the editor of, I believe it was British Vogue, and she sort of laid bare how deep their relationship between their editorial and their advertising ran. And you know, if you ever read one of those magazines and you think this feels like it's just a way to trick me into buying the thing that's advertised on the opposite page, that

is literally exactly what it is. That's the business. And so we did want to do that. Yeah. All right, let me ask you some questions. Shorts. Yeah. Shorts. Do you wear it? Yeah, well, I mean, I wear shorts, yeah. Yeah. All right, let me ask you some questions. Shorts. Yeah. Shorts. Do you wear? Yeah. Well, I mean, I wear shorts. Yeah. Totally wearing them right now. I'm wearing jeans right now, but

kind of wore shorts yesterday. What kind of jeans do you have on? I have on LVC jeans, Levi's vintage clothing. Is that a heavy, is that a heavy, uh, that number one? No, it's a medium. It's a reproduction of a Levi's 501 from the late 1940s from 1947 and these ones that I have I've had for something like five or eight years and they have a lot of holes in them that have been patched up over those years by my Taylor's wife. And some of them patched with fabric that we was left over from our pocket squares, and some of them just sewn up and some with denim patches behind them. So they're kind of spotty, but they're the one of the nice things about the movement towards wearing high quality,

quote unquote, raw jeans in the last 10 years or so, at least in the United States in the last 10 years or so, is that there's this idea that if you are wearing something like that that essentially accumulates patina rather than diminishing in value. That if you wear something that over time gets better, it kind of shows a reflection of your life. And that's a grand, and sometimes can be silly thing. But like these are genes, those genes that I'm wearing are genes

that started out hard as a rock and midnight blue. They had never seen water, you know. And at this point, there are places where they're almost white, but there are still places where that dark blue shines through and it's all the kind of story of how I wore them. No holes, no patches. There are plenty of patches. There are tons of patches. Yeah, yeah.

Crotch, cross patches. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Crotch, cross patches. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Crotch, cross patches.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We'd like one of the first things that tends to go with jeans that aren't washed super regularly,

which is what people tend to do if they wanna have more high contrast fades. This is serious denim nerdery, it's to crotch because it tends to get. All my crotchers are blown out. Yeah, so I mean, I just, I had that, that was, I basically put in a double crotch

relatively early on. That's it, that's what I need to fucking do. This is the answer. Thank God I had you on this podcast because now I can finally wear jeans again. But I also wash my jeans and I also don't have that swampy of balls. Well, I'm not going to calm. I'm not saying that my balls are particularly swampy, but I will tell you that's what I'm trying to explain. That's what I'm trying to explain. They're the firsty, but I will tell you, those cracks is annoying. They're the first to go.

All right, listen, we're gonna take a quick break, and then we're gonna be back with more at Jesse Thorn, and I actually weirdly have more questions about clothes that I don't know how annoying this is or not, but I didn't think I would talk this much about the clothing side of things, but it turns out I'm very interested in it. So we're gonna take a break and we'll be back. Okay, Ryan, I want to talk to you about something very important.

It's been on my mind quite a bit. Okay. And I'm concerned and I think it's time to address it. All right. I want to talk about Hello, Fresh. Oh, I'm glad you found this out of it. Yeah, because I know you've been getting this, you know, it's a meal kit delivery service that makes cooking more fun.

Absolutely. So you can focus on the whole experience, not just the final plate. And I know you've been enjoying that experience every moment, every mortal, every mortal of the experience. Now, is this true? Just I want to run some facts by you. You know this. Hello, fresh.

Each week they create a new delicious recipes with step-by-step instructions designed to take around 30 minutes for everyone from novices to season home cooks who are short on time. Is this true? That's absolutely true. Okay. Which way do you fall into that category? Are you the novice or the season home cook short on time? I'm a novice with a little seasoning.

I'd like to know that's, I'm not going to get going to that, but I'd like to know if you can also be a season home cook who has plenty of time. They don't cover that, but I'm assuming that that's also allowed. It's within a spectrum. It's I'm assuming that that's also allowed. It's within a spectrum, it's all a spectrum. It's a spectrum, interesting. Hello fresh sources, the freshest ingredients measured to the exact quantities needed

so there's no food waste. True. True. They employ two full-time registered dietitians on staff who review each recipe to ensure it is nutritionally balanced. I don't know if you can actually verify that, but do you feel like you've got

the right balance of nutrition in these meals? I've actually spoken to them and it's true. And they deliver food to your doorstep and recyclable insulated box for free, true? Absolutely. I was to check this out. Hella fresh is offering light summer meals and has just introduced breakfast options. Actually, that's pretty revolutionary. So, delicious ingredients you'll love to eat, simple recipes you'll love to cook.

So get cooking at less than $10 a meal. Okay, so here's what you do for 30 bucks off your first week of deliveries. Visit hellofresh.com and enter Topolsky 30 when you subscribe. That's T-O-P-O-L-S-K-Y-3-0. That was my choice and you'll get $30 off your first week. Support for tomorrow. That's my podcast you're listening to with me, Josh Motipulski, comes from Talenti. When Talenti makes gelato in Serbedo, they tend to get a little overzealous. Did they need to use so many raspberries in their Roman raspberry Serbedo that the machine broke?

Did they need to try 25 different chai teas to find the perfect spice blend for their vanilla chai gelato? Did they have to invent giant minstiepers to make their Mediterranean mint super minty? And obviously the answer to this is no, they clearly have a problem. They want you to taste something delicious every time you put tulenti in your mouth. Does their obsessiveness make tulenti gelato and Serbetta the greatest? You can be the judge, but yeah, it does. I mean, if you're looking for the answer, it actually empirically makes them the most delicious.

To Lenti, the delicious is in the details. This episode tomorrow is brought to you by Harry's. For decades, one big razor company has relentlessly increased prices and reaped immense profits at the expense of their customers. And Harry's is here to change all that. If you don't know, if you haven't heard of them, which is, because Harry's is everywhere, they were started by two best friends. Jeff and Andy, no Harry involved there whatsoever, but that's fine. I'm not going to hold it against them. Jeff and Andy, he were fed up with being overcharged for razors. They started their

own razor company to give people what they deserve, a great shave at a fair price. Harry's razors include everything you need for a close comfortable shave. They can give you a weighted handle. Ryan, you use Harry's, correct? Absolutely. Harry's shave sets start at just 15 bucks, and they include everything you need for a close comfortable shave. I think you've got to be a weighted handle. Ryan, you use Harry's, correct? Absolutely. Harry's shave sets start at just 15 bucks and they include everything you need for a close comfortable shave, including a weighted ergonomic handle.

Ryan, you are using the shave set. Yes. How's the handle? Honestly, that's the best razor I've ever used in my life. What color do you have? There's a green, there's an orange, and there's a blue. I have the orange. Orange is the only way to go. That's how I agree with that.

Five precision engineer blades with a lubricating strip and trimmer blade. You actually are very clean shaven right now. Yeah, I feel like it's working. Rich lathering shave gel, do you use a shave gel? Yes, I use a shave gel. And a travel blade cover, which is, I don't know how much you're traveling,

but it's nice. I do actually do go to my parents. Ah, wonderful. What are your parents' names? Tom and Lorraine. Tom and Lorraine, those are such parrots. They're not named Harry. Unbelievable.

So check it out. Harry's is so confident in the quality of their blades. They want you to try their shave set for free. That's right. Just cover shipping when you sign up. To redeem your free trial offer, go to harries.com slash tomorrow right now. That's harries.com slash tomorrow. Jesse Thorn, we're talking about the crotch of your pants being blown out. So, actually not yours.

You've buffered against that. You're a very smart man. We ran a story. By the way, I run a website called the outline. I don't know if you don't have to say you've seen it. It's fine. But we ran a story a few weeks ago about Fred Perry polo's being like a staple of sort of racist people, like white power and it's kind of a staple of racist people, like white power.

And it's kind of a staple of racism and Gavin McGinnis who is a former, I don't know if you know Gavin or not, former vice guy who now is sort of a racist. I think he probably was before. Yeah, I think he probably was. I think he probably definitely was. But he has a thing.

We can just describe him. Celebrity asshole Gavin McKennais. Yes, celebrity asshole. His main thing is like he's Canadian. He talks a lot about American politics, which I find it problematic. That it's just out. It's just the sort of start of it.

Anyhow, he sucks. And I mean, your opinion may differ, but I don't know. He has this like proud boy's crew or whatever, and they all wear polos. uh... any how he sucks and um... the minute your opinion may differ but uh... i don't know he has this like proud boys crew whatever they all wear polos these red parry polos and fred parry polos have become become sort of synonymous with skinheads and obby obviously fred parry uh... polo's polo shirts predate the skinhead movement do you have any opinion on this?

Well, I mean, I'll drop it on you. There are also many kinds of skinhead. I mean, I think it's important to note that there are tons of anti-racist skinheads, explicitly, specifically anti-racist skinheads. So having being part of that subculture, there is a big racist part of it. There is a big anti-racist part of it. One of the things that we write a lot about at Putt-Deson, my colleague Derek, who is

the editor of these days, is a sociologist. He's a professional sociologist. And I mean, he does a lot more fashion writing than sociology these days, but in some many ways they are one and the same. And I was in American Studies major in school and I believe that culture is a form of discourse. That fashion is a form of discourse that you are saying something with the clothes that you wear, and there is, you know, to pretend otherwise is to fool yourself. And so it's worth thinking about what you're saying with the clothes that you wear. And, you know, I think even people who claim that they are explicitly not saying anything with the

clothes they wear, the people who say, well, I buy my jeans at Costco or I buy my jeans at Walmart or whatever. Those people are also very specifically making a statement about who they are through their clothes. And I think that one of the things that we argue I put this on is that not only are you making a statement, but this idea that it is fundamentally vapid to care about the way that you present yourself is wrong. And that the idea that it is a lesser way to express yourself is wrong.

Or the idea that to be a true rebel, you don't represent yourself in the context of other people's cultural and social messages is absurd. Like it's ridiculous on its face. So, you know, I mean, I think that these questions have come up around a few things lately. I mean, particularly with the rise of the alt-right in the past few years, you know, people are worried about, oh, if I have a high-end tight hair cut, and that's the official haircut

of jerkwad, or jerkwad-americanad American racists, does that mean I'm racist? Right. Or if I'm wearing new balance shoes because the CEO of new balance, it's basically the only sneaker brand still making any of its sneakers in the United States. He said maybe it would be good if Donald Trump got elected because Donald Trump was talking about protecting American manufacturing and they have some and nobody else has any. And then it was like, you know, are they the Donald Trump shoe, right?

Yeah. Are they? Well, you can answer this question. You're an expert on fashion. You could make a proclamation on that. No, of course they're not. That's absurd. So you're wearing, would you wear a pair of new balance?

Yeah, I've heard some new balances probably yesterday or the day before. I can't. What about a Fred Perry polo? I would not personally, but I would not because I'm opposed to people wearing them, more just because that's not my look. I look like a dope no matter what. Sorry, God. No matter what polo shirt I'm wearing. But I look like a dope no matter what. Sorry, God. No matter what polo shirt I'm wearing,

I just look like a jerk. I just have never been able to wear polo shirts without looking like a jerk. I think it's just my kind of general whiteness. Like I'm both too lumpy and like not, I'm like both too white and not white enough at the same time somehow to wear a polo shirt. Like I neither look like, I'm neither able to look like a guy who belongs in a polo shirt,

nor like a guy who's making a comment on guys who belong in polo shirts. Like I, Andre 3000 will wear a polo shirt and look gorgeous. Yeah. And I can't do that. I'm too white for that. polo shirts, like Andre 3000 will wear a polo shirt and look gorgeous. And I can't do that. I'm too white for that, but then I'm not quite white enough for a guy who looks like he's on his way to the golf course. Right.

This is why I, this is, I mean, to me, well, I agree, I don't look good in polo shirts either. I mean, my feeling, my personal feeling is I don't, but I mean, I feel like if you step out, you got a high and tight, a pair of new balance on it, a Fred Perry polo, maybe your outfit does something that you don't. Maybe those three notes constitute a chord. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly, and the chord is not a bomb, bomb, bomb. But okay, so you're not gonna voice a strong opinion on the Fred Perry polo, you're basically saying, it's all in how you wear it. I'm not putting where, I just put words in your mouth. Yeah, well, I mean, you could say the same thing about, something that is very in fashion right now is nylon bomber jackets.

Yes. So like a classic nylon pilots jacket is a big fashion thing right now. You know, it's something you could go by at urban outfitters or any other kind of trend following store. That is a classic skinhead garment. Yeah. Doc Martins are another thing.

Like obviously, you know, Doc Martins are an iconic skinhead garment, and they're also very much in fashion at the moment. The fact that they're in fashion has more to do with a kind of 90s revival than it does with skinhead culture. Right. And sure, I know that Doc Martins are the only thing that holds us together, mods and rockers. Yeah. But, you know, they're a classic, you know, the classic skinhead look is what, it's white t-shirt or the polo that we're talking about,

a Fred Perry polo. Yeah. It's high cuff jeans, tall doctor martens. Yeah. And one of those green nylon bomber jackets, right? Well, a lot of those things are in style right now, and I don't think that- That's- You just described Vettelmont like their latest line.

It's exactly that. I mean, I don't know. It probably isn't, but it's something like that. Or who's the Russian designer that everybody loves, whose name I'm blanking on right now? I didn't know. Vladimir Putin. Vladimir Putin is- Is that right? Is that right? Is that right? I'm blanking on right now. I didn't have Vladimir Putin. Vladimir Putin is issuing that as we speak

to all of the youth in Russia. It's funny to think actually as you were describing this, I was like, oh, I could go put these items together right now. And well, I have a beard and I mean, I look extremely Jewish, so I probably not in danger here. But I could put a look together and look pretty skin-head-y pretty quickly. It's actually like their elements are quite simple and easy to come by.

Well, that's the whole point of them. I mean, you know, it's the same as why are they skinheads? It's because they need to stand out and that way no one can pull their hair if they get enough height. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. We've taken this to a very dark place, very dark actually, but that's the mood of the country. All right, so anyhow, so beyond put this on, oh, no way to have a question for you before we get off closed, because I just have this one. So I have a theory and I want to know if my theory is insane to you or not.

You obviously follow fashion trends, right? In addition to things that you think are fashionable and stuff that you should buy potentially, I mean, you must have someone wearing this fashion trends. So you mentioned the genes that kind of get worn down. We've talked about holes in the genes, patching genes. There was this, selvage was like a big deal for the last, like let's say, you want to say 10 years, is that fair enough? And selvage genes, at least initially, now there's a bit more affordable, but they

were pretty expensive. The people who were making, there was like these heavy kind of Japanese, denim or whatever, they're like $300 or $400 genes. And then recently, I have a theory in this one. I want somebody to back my theory up. And so if I'm leading you, just be like, that's complete bullshit. But lately, the distressed look has really come back into style. Like the last few years, last let's say years, so two years maybe, clothing that's like ripped, worn down, patch, seems to have become like a thing in fashion. And I want to know if you feel there's any correlation between buying a really expensive pair of jeans that you wear into the ground and then like still wearing them and the rise of the distressed look.

There's any correlation between those two things or if you think it's just a random in a fashion decision. Well, I mean, the way that the fashion world is now, it's really hard to say what is the look in the same way that you could when there were, you know, eight houses of Couture and every Kansas City department store just offered a knockoff of that one year, you know, 1960 or whatever. So you know, I mean, a lot of people are into what they jokingly call the Gothen ninja look, the kind of ricoans, the ricoans kind of how many different shapes and textures can we make out of black? Gothen ninja, you say? Yeah. There's, million different looks going on. But yeah, certainly. I think that to some

extent, to my disappointment, frankly, the kind of quote unquote heritage trend is running out of gas. What's that? Just grab the heritage trend. That is, again, it's the last 10 years or so, maybe especially the last five years. It's the idea of purchasing things with pedigree in a story, a quality built to last for a lifetime. In some cases, made in the United States or made in other first world nations in high quality ways. And a certain aesthetic that lends itself towards

kind of classicism, not in terms of suited, but including casual. So, you know, like the iconic brand of it is probably probably Filsen. Right. The Northwestern outdoors outfitter that's been making many of the same clothes the same way for 100 some years and got purchased by a holding company a couple of years ago Who wanted to capitalize on their brand? Well, they did a really good job

Yeah, they've done a great job. They make they make they make where they still make very many very high-quality products Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be inclined to spend $1200 on a Filsen watch, but I can certainly recommend their luggage. Yeah, they make very good bags. I have several Filsen bags. Yeah, and they're a very high ball. Yeah, so that's that, that heritage thing. And that's like a best made ax.

This is like a campsite. This is like a campsite. This is like a kinfolk. Those are the parity versions of it. You're wrapped in a, what's the, what's the, the wall company, the fucking... You're thinking of Pendleton? Pendleton, you're wrapped in a Pendleton blanket. You're sitting by a fire.

You're drinking out of a best made tin cup. You've got some thick, salvage, worn, salvage jeans on that you haven't washed in two years. Is this sounding right to you? Yeah, roughly. I mean, it grows out of, it grew out of substantially, the aesthetics of it, it's grew out of substantially, a kind of interpretation grew out of substantially a kind of interpretation of Americana that came from Japan. Of course. Of course. There was a look, I mean, the look that you're describing is kind of related to this look

called heavy duty that was sort of codified by some Japanese magazines. And I guess probably the 70s-ish, but has been a kind of subculture in Japan since then. Yeah, pop-i magazine, big girl. Yeah, I was thinking of free and easy, but the free and easy shop-i and the magazine for city boys is also a good example. Yeah. I mean, I know exactly what you're talking about,

because I've certainly been probably guilty of purchasing some things in the realm of that stuff. I think so. I mean, to be fair, a lot of the values of that are values that I share. I'm not nuts about best made access that people who buy $30 hardware store access and paint stripes on them and charge $250 for

them. But I do think that the idea of, realistically, there's no such thing as, quote, unquote, classic fashion. That's not a real thing. But I think that respecting the kind of values that endure in clothing are generally pretty good ones. They have to do with beauty and functionality. And the things that endure the best have those built into them. And whether it's the functionality of, oh, I can chop wood in my Philsin mac anocruiser, or it's the functionality of my, you know,

my polo suit, or my purple level suit, flatters my body proportions and makes me look more attractive than I am, more sexually appealing, whatever. Are you taking it yourself now? I just want to be clear on where we're going with this. I don't really need the help personally, but I'm talking about for other people who might need a hand right there. I'm pretty irresistible. Of course. But no, I mean like there, those values of that heritage movement are like ones that I generally support, especially relative to the kind of

more abstract and consumption-oriented ones that sometimes are prevalent in fashion. But you know, things change over time. It's just the reality of, you know, people put it to the consumer cycle, but it's human nature to value a modest amount of novelty. Right. If you want some novelty, but not a scary amount of novelty. Is there, who is an iconic dresser that you think is a scary amount of novelty?

Is that like a Lady Gaga situation? Is that like a tie? I mean, I think that in the context of the world in which she lives is very difficult to achieve a scary amount of novelty. I mean, in runway fashion, one of the things that they're trying to do is essentially make something that's so different that people talk about it so that it markets their things that aren't very different, which are the things that people buy. So, I mean, in Lady Gaga's world, people are doing all kinds of crazy stuff to try and get noticed.

I mean, the menswear version of that is there are these big menswear shows in Italy and the guys who go there, you know, there are a lot of people photographing and it's a very big sort of menswear cultural group. And, you know, people, all of a sudden people are like wearing one hat on top of another hat because they're trying to push the two hats at the same time trend. But that's simply because there's so few moves you can make to be noticed in that context. Right. You know, because the baseline is already so complex and you know, the messages are already so complicated. Whereas me, I live in Los Angeles like I'm wearing a sport coat right now. That is a very distinctive choice.

Really? What's distinctive about it? You mean just because you're in LA? Yeah, because nobody's wearing a no-to-oat. And it's a hundred degrees. I thought there's two sport coats within three blocks of here. Wait, so you think there are not a lot of sport coats?

Is that what you're saying? Yeah, no, where I am right now, hell no. There's probably probably seven men who work in my office. None of them came to work in a sport coat today. Can you describe Casey O'Brien, who's engineering this year in Los Angeles. He's wearing a, gosh, he's wearing a college sweatshirt. It's not even a cool sweatshirt.

Get out of there. Sorry, Casey. It must be horrible to look at. I apologize for on that. Casey's a lot handsomeer than I am. So, okay, wait with that kind of stuff. So, wait, they described the jacket you're wearing. The jacket that I'm wearing is a very lightweight cotton,

khaki colored cotton poplin jacket. Okay. By a Japanese brand called Captain Sunshine, uh-huh, who make their clothes and to be sort of vintage inspired and oriented towards a kind of like adventure aesthetic. Interesting. Not quite like full on safari stuff. No, I didn't, I didn't like, I got this from a store called No Man walks alone, but not quite like a full on not quite a full on safari thing, but like not that

far off. Interesting. And do you have, is the rest of the outfits safari related or is it just a, and so we're going to have to move on. My, my engineer was just like, you should got to move on from the jacket stuff though. I am actually really interested now in your outfit. Maybe you can send us a picture of your outfit for the website when we put this up. I'm wearing, I'll do it real quick, I'm wearing Clark's Walla Bees and a kind of Sandy

Shweed. Classic, that's a classic. Anonymous ism cotton blue, navy blue, marbled, blue and white, marbled cotton socks, Japanese brand. I got those LVCs on. I got a Brooks Brothers Black fleece, very lightweight button-down collar shirt. On. Talked in, it's talked in. It's talked in, yeah.

Yeah, okay, good. All right, that's a good look. That's a solid gentleman's look. Clarks can't go wrong with those. Although I broke my foot walking in one, just walking in them, so you guess you can actually. I literally went to a trade show. Every year I used to go to this trade show called

the CES Consumer Electronics Show. And one year I came back and I had worn these new clerks that I just bought and I came back and I was like, limpin' and I was like, my foot really hurts. And I thought at some point I heard it crack when I was walking but I was like, that doesn't make any sense. And I had like fractured my foot just literally walking

which either says, clerks are bad or I'm so out of shape and so bad at walking that I can break my foot just from strolling through a parking lot. That's my Clark story. All right, let's talk about, we're gonna shift gears. We have like 10 minutes. I'm gonna ask you things.

So a lot of your time, besides all of this clothing stuff we just talked about, which I find utterly fascinating, trying to say even more fascinating than I expected. But you spend a lot of time interviewing people and having conversations. And I'm curious, do you consider what you do journalism? Do you consider yourself a journalist? And like, how do you, what is the purpose and what is the pursuit that you seem to be so engaged in, if not that? engaged in, if not that. I guess at this point I consider myself a journalist.

When my show was distributed by public radio international, I asked them one time, am I a journalist? And they said, entertainer, I guess. But when I joined NPR who now distribute my show, I checked in with them and they're like, yeah, here's your ethics handbook. Oh, wow. So I guess I am a journalist. I mean, I'm sort of on the lemon, you know, like is, you know, is Trevor Noah journalist?

I don't know, you know, I mean, he does interviews with people that are about real things. Right. I'm, he's much more talented than I am to be clear. Wow. But for me, on Bullseye, which is my interview show, my goal was to highlight great arts and culture and find out where it came from. So that is in some ways a journalistic goal. I mean, it came out of a show that for years and years had a lot of comedy on it and stuff like that that we were doing. And don't do that stuff on that show anymore. Now, it's a separate show. But, you know, I mean,

for me, the thing that is most interesting is where creativity comes from and why and how people make creative choices. When they're making something that I think is wonderful. So, you know, maybe that means today I interviewed Aiden Gillen, who's stars on Game of Thrones, he plays plays Little Finger and he was also on the wire. Oh yeah. And he was in Queeris Folk, the original Queeris Folk in the UK and a lot of other great things. So like when I talk to him, I wanna hear about what kind of choices he makes. He's on this kind of grand opera ridiculous show. And before he was on the wire,

which is one of the most realist tone shows in TV history, you know? So how does he make those choices? Like, what is he, how does he do his work, you know? So that is kind of a journalistic endeavor, but I always thought of myself. I mean, I thought of myself as a host, you know? I've never been a reporter.

Right. I've never worked in a newsroom. I've never worked for a journalistic company. A journalism company. I've worked at a newspaper or at NPR or at CNN. So yeah, I'm sort of a tweener in that sense, but I've been assured by some of the guests on my show The Turnaround that I am a journalist. Well, yeah, I listened to Utah to Audie Cornish.

Well, Audie's a real journalist. I mean, Audie's the kind of person. Audie Cornish is one of the hosts of all things considered on NPR. And I, like, Audis, one of those people who can, who, you know, her clarity of purpose convinced me that I was not a journalist. You're like, I'm not that. I can tell you that for sure.

Like, she's for real. I'm just some Yehu. Right. I mean, but your interview is interesting because, she, I thought it was, and I'm not gonna, you know, rehash the whole thing, but, and I recommend that everybody goes and listens to it because I thought I was really fast on it.

But she sort of, you know, pushes you a little bit on, turns it around. It's actually interesting because, you know, you've got a show, you know, this show, it's sort of the purpose of, is interviewing people who normally are interviewing people. And she kind of shifts that conversation and almost like, I'm like, oh my God,

she's interviewing him now. Which I thought. She kind of jitsude me. There's no doubt about that. I mean, she's almost certainly smarter than me. But she also, she also was done a lot more interviews with people who are difficult to interview than I have. She, I asked her if it was ever difficult to not voice her own personal perspective on

things since she is representative of, she's the face of a journalistic institution that still believes very strongly in journalistic objectivity. And she kind of gave me the business about it, yeah. And you know, I'm still not certain that I fully share her perspective, but I certainly understand where she's coming from and certainly think she does a brilliant job of doing things the way that she thinks they should be done and that it's a very valuable thing for the world. I mean, I really believe in NPR journalism, speaking as I guess, an NPR journalist, by far NPR's worst journalist.

The weakest link in the NPR chain. But one of the funnier people at NPR, I guess. The funniest link, one of the funnier links in the chain, but weak nonetheless. Your take on that is, and just so I'm understanding, and this kind of makes sense, given your career path, you would prefer, or you do prefer to know more about the emotional, philosophical, intellectual position of a journalist

as they do their job versus having this kind of view from nowhere or gray sort of straight down the line view. I think both are very valuable. I think in the kind of show that I do, my editorial perspective drives the show. And so knowing me means that you know the editorial perspective drives the show. So knowing me means that you know the editorial perspective of the show. I think that's important. I think that, especially for me on an arts and culture show, which is what I host, the

idea of being politically balanced is very difficult to achieve. If only because there are so few people who are politically or socially conservative who make awesome art, and that not none at all, but like part, I think just the social position of the artist and the social position of the conservative are, there's not a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram. Right. So the idea of representing fairly though that world is very difficult. And again, like I don't believe that there aren't

artists or great artists who are politically or socially conservative, it's just that. Could you name them? Yeah, well... I mean, I can't, I can't think of one. I know there must be something. Charles Naston, he's dead, but he's dead. Clint Eastwood.

Oh Clint Eastwood. Clint Eastwood is, but Clint Eastwood is a pretty centrist politically, he's a Republican, but I think he's pretty centrist. But any problem. But I think that's not the argument that I want to get into. My main point is that it really depends on what kind of work you're doing. So, Audi's job is to represent the world, right?

To represent the selection of the things, to say this is what's important that's going on in the world, and this is what we know about them right now. In other words, as she put it, it's not about me. Now, I also interviewed one of my genuine heroes, Brooke Gladstone, who hosts the WNYC, informally NPR show on the media. Yeah, and she's great. On the media is, as she put it,

an analysis and commentary show. Now, a lot of what public radio does is analysis and commentary. As much as public radio is one of the NPRs, one of the larger news organizations in the country, it still has a tendency to tend towards analysis relative to say reporting or breaking stories, right? Right.

You know, relative to other big news organizations like that, certainly to many newspapers. So like Brooke on the media, she and her co-host Bob Garfield are very upfront about their political views and they believe very strongly that that doesn't mean that they can't do a fair program or they can't do an honest program.

And in fact, they believe that being upfront about their political views strengthens that. I think that's also a very valid point of view. And it's essential for the kind of show that they do, which is to say a show that is driven by their personal perspectives, and their understanding and analysis of what's going on in the world.

I don't think they do it from a partisan perspective. I think they're probably, I mean, I've listened to the show for many years. I think they're both, you know, they're both on the left. They're probably both Democrats. But that isn't the thing that informs them. It's not a matter of the saying, okay, one of these and one of these. It's just to say they are open about who they are, what their perspective on the world is, and how that influences what they do on their show. And they listen to all sides and give every part of the conversation voice in the context of their kind of discretion and understanding and analysis.

But they have a point of view. And you can sense that point of view. Exactly. And they, when it's necessary or important, they state it. Right. You know, they don't hide it. They don't ever hide it. It's not a matter of inferring their point of view.

They show their point of view. You think Adi's hiding it, that's what you're saying. Well, I think there were a lot of people who work in news who frankly are interested in the information. Like they are interested in learning information. And Audie struck me, I don't know her really well. You know, I've only met her in passing in real life. But she struck me as to some extent one of those people,

like a reporter, like a person who really is driven by the idea of finding out what's going on, right? And I don't think that that is a fundamentally partisan endeavor. And many of those people that I've known over the years are that kind of person, you know, they're like that. And that's, yeah, you know? They're like that. And that's, yeah, they're curious and they're not driven by, they're not driven by the analysis part, you know?

Right, right. And that's just a different point of view in the world. Yeah, I didn't mean it's a different way of being. Right, like she's not being secretive about it, but it's not part of the process. And I thought that was a really interesting exchange hearing because obviously like a big part of, like you said, a big part of what you do is sort of in some way editorializing or being the kind of machine of interest that starts the conversation to begin with, whereas

she's obviously coming out these things from a very purely journalistic standpoint, which is clearly has a place in with NPR. It obviously has a place. I mean, for me, on my show, part of what I do is act as a critic. You can't act as a critic without having personal perspective and showing what your personal perspective is. On my show, not only am I ultimately a person who decides who comes on the show, and that's an editorial and critical act, but I also write essays on the show about art

that is also an editorial and critical act. Now, generally speaking, if you define objectivity as not having to do with partisan politics, you can go pretty far with that. I mean, there's the question of like, do I laugh at someone's joke if they say a joke at the expense of the president, right? Depending on what party the president is in, you know, that might be me expressing a partisan political view, but it doesn't come up that much. But it does come up. I mean, you know, one of my favorite hip-hop groups is a group called the coup from the Bay

area. And I had Boots Riley, who's the sort of leader of the group on the show a few years ago. And I thought, you know, Boots is a brilliant MC, an brilliant producer. And in my opinion, one of the, frankly, one of the great MCs in hip hop history. He's also very explicitly a revolutionary Marxist. That is his perspective. And his music generally isn't, you know, it's not Agut prop, Agut prop. Agut, I think, maybe.

Agut prop, it's not, it's, sometimes it is, but you know, it's always informed by that perspective, but it's not like he's like, yeah, we're Marxist, go Karl Marx, my name is Bootson, I'm here to say I love Karl Marx in a major way. That would be a bad, that'd be bad on so many levels. But you know, when he wraps about poverty, like that's part of what's going on. And I wasn't sure how to deal with that in the context of, you know, in the context of

that kind of editorial perspective. So for many years, I honestly avoided explicitly political art on the show. More recently, I've kind of given up on that, simply because I'm like, well, my previous perspective had been in order to be fair and balanced, I would have to have some, here are some conservative voices among the explicitly progressive or liberal voices, or let's say leftist voices, and they don't exist really. Certainly not in, you know, I mean, if we just tried and we came up with one guy

I was Clint Eastwood once come on my show. He's definitely can come on my show. No doubt about that. Let me be clear But like I couldn't balance it out, you know, there's there's not a lot of conservative folk singers so I was like well, maybe I should just avoid it these days. I don't do as much avoiding it because I'm like I'm just gonna get the best people that I like the most and leave it at that. But, it is a difficult decision because my work requires an editorial voice and NPR's ethics standards require

a news organization's objectivity and a parent objectivity as well. You know, the NPR ethics standards involve both how objective you are and how objective you appear to be. Right. So, you know, it's very difficult to talk. Does that change, does that change what you do or what you can do? I mean, you can't, you can't, certainly. And but I mean, on the, I mean, you've got the ethics handbook, right?

I mean, is there a guest you can't have on because you'll be too combattives with him or her? That's an interesting question. I mean, if I had, if I had, um, if I had a guest on, frankly, the competitive is not even where it is. It's not even about if I had a guest on who I disagreed with. What if I have a guest on who I agree with? Yes.

Also a great question. You know? This is your real boss, Ken. You got to go independent. What if I'm leaving it? What if I, what if I leave myself out of it, but, you know, there's an implied endorsement in me booking someone on my show. Right. You know, we've been talking about booking this guy on the show and we probably will

book him. It was a very funny stand up out of San Francisco who's undocumented. He's a dreamer. So if I talk to him about his life and experience, well on the one hand I'm reporting on that, on the other hand, am I endorsing art by undocumented performers or artists during a time when the active omission of being undocumented or whatever you want to call it, omission or commission is inherently political or just talking about being undocumented is inherently political.

But man, that inherently ideological. But that sounds really NPR-ish to me. To me, that interview sounds like a perfect conversation for an NPR broadcast. I mean, you know, that's the kind of conversation I can expect to be wanting you. Oh, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. I mean, you're talking about like the thing that I've often, we laugh in the office about,

which is the NPR pitches that we get. And it's always like this child soldier turned rapper. Right. Well, I get that. The only hip hop you can have on the airwaves on NPR is like, if the hip hop comes from a prison college group. It's like a place of great pain first. They are like, you know, like, you know,

in a lot of ways, Shakespeare is the first trap. Oh boy, hell, this is a rabbit hole. But this is an interesting question because you're, and by the way I didn't it was speaking of rabbit holes like I think we went a little bit down Which I'm an interest so interested in because it does and be but how but how you've been confronting these constraints for some how long have you been how long has it been going on? A lot of you have been with NPR for about five years. So five years. You've been you've been in it. You've been in this I'm up really it sounds like emotional distress to me

and I'm concerned. Yeah. It's not, I'm really, here's the thing. Like, for me, I am in an unusual position because of what kind of show I do and what kind of guy I am. However, A, I agree with NPR's journalistic ethics policy. I think that it's great. I agree with NPR's journalistic ethics policy. I think that it's great. I think that it makes for a stronger news organization.

And I think that NPR's greatest contribution to the world is as one of the strongest news organizations in the world. I think NPR is fucking great. And I think that their ethics policy is part of the reason for that. I think there is a huge, wonderful, amazing place in the world for objective journalism, or at least for journalism that strives for objectivity. I think there is also a place in the world for other kinds of journalism. Journalism that strives for truth,

but not objectivity. I think I'm in an odd position because of what kind of odd, the kind of odd semi objective journalists that I am, right? I'm in a world of reporters and I'm not really a reporter, I never have been. So I'm unusual in being of reporters and I'm not really a reporter and never have been. So I'm an unusual in being in this odd place in NPR and I accept it for that reason. Like I'm like, well you know,

if this is, if this is what it takes to work with these people that I love and admire and whose work I so love and admire, I understand why they have these policies and I'm cool with it. It's not a problem. You know, it's a conversation that I had with them before I started. I was like, hey, am I a journalist or am I an entertainer? And they're like, you're a journalist. And I'm like, so I follow the ethics policy. Yeah, I looked at it and I'm like, yeah, I can do this. What does that mean? You can't, I mean, you can't tweet angrily about Trump if you wanted to. It does mean that. Yeah, really don't. Oh, okay. So you have thoughts about things you just literally can't put on Twitter.

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't. And I don't say them publicly and I don't say them on Facebook. I don't. This is crazy. You're living with people who aren't in my family or whatever. Yeah, that's okay. That's part of what I signed up for. You're describing to me a prison, a great prison.

No, it is actually crazy now to think about this because I don't think my mental map of you includes this edited part. Like, you seem like, I'm not saying you're like, whoa, this guy's crazy, but you seem like a relatively unadded person. And yet, and yet, there is a tremendous amount of editing going on every day with you behind the scenes.

Well, it is funny that I can, that, and I like when I signed up with NPR, I was like, you guys know that there's just a profound amount of vulgarity on my comedy show, Jordan Dessie Goal. Like it is really filthy. Right. Like warmhearted and not offensive generally, but like, a lot of swearing and butt stuff talk.

Yeah. You know, in between the Audi Cornish interview, this interstitial break, there's a spot for, and it's like about fart jokes. Yeah. And I was like, what's this in Congress in some way? Yeah, so like, I am that, what's this in Congress in some way? Yeah. So, so like I am, I am, I am that, you know, like NPR to their credit. They were like, yeah, that is what

he is. But they did ask me to, to be considerate of their policies around journalistic ethics in terms. I mean, I also agreed to their other journalistic ethical policies. I mean, I don't take large gifts and that kind of thing. Sure. But what have you seen? When you go on Twitter and you say, I love diet coke. Can you do that?

Yeah, I can probably, I think I can do that. Yeah. And you know, I think I can, I can make jokes about stuff. Like they understand that I'm, they understand that I'm a professional humorist in part. Right. So, and that sometimes is about politics. I generally avoid electoral politics professional humorist in part. Right. And that sometimes is about politics.

I generally avoid electoral politics and try and shoot for social politics. And I mean, I think I'm allowed to be a human being. Like, I have a transgender daughter. I'm allowed to say that when James Woods suggests that a family with a gender creative kid, the kid is going to grow up to murder his parents, which he recently did on Twitter. I think I'm allowed to say my experience has been this.

You know, I don't have to like... It's a calm way to approach it. I don't know that I'd be as calm as the way you just suggested. Is that what you said? Well, he's a real class act that James would. I hate him. He really ruined, I can't just say he ruined vampires for me, which I think is a great John Carpenter film.

And he's now, I have to think about that. His actual personality every time. Maybe it's good you're not tweeting now that I think of it, because I think who knows what you actually think, but you can't badmouth James Woods on Twitter, can you? Well, I sure did. Oh, okay. I can be the person. I can be myself, you know, but it's just like anything else, you know,

on my show Jordan Jesy go, we talk about ourselves in our lives, you know, but I don't give a full accounting of my life. I only share the part that the audience will enjoy, hopefully, that I think the audience will enjoy, you know? So there's huge parts of my life that are left out of that, and I think it's fine for me to leave parts of my life out of other media as well.

You know, I don't need people to know which city council candidate I voted for. You know? I guess that's true. I mean, I guess in a way, this limitation is actually a gift because I can say whatever I want on Twitter and I feel like most of the time it gets me into trouble. And you probably stop yourself from saying things that otherwise would be a headache. Well, recently I said that I like the characters on Seinfeld and I don't like the characters on friends. That's correct. That's correct. That's a thing. That I find the characters on

Seinfeld likeable and not the characters on friends. That got me in trouble. Well, the characters on friends are all horrible. I mean, they're horrible on Seinfeld too, but they're not likeable. I mean, that's the outside of Phoebe. Phoebe's pretty funny, but yeah, Phoebe's great. And they're all good actors, but like, oh, God, could you imagine hanging out with them? What a boolean. I mean, Chandler, Chandler, Joey, who would be friends with Joey?

It's like every man a monkey for a while. I would hang out with anybody who had a monkey. I think that was not being Ross. I just want to meet a monkey. Yeah, I think was that Ross. I would have never met a monkey. But all the characters are unlikable. On Seinfeld, they're likable, but they're horrible.

It's like horrible, unlikable versus horrible, likable, which I think is the spread. Who is like, who is so, who, what public figure is like so notably despicable that I could say that we could just consider it a shared value, a shared American value, and I could say they're despicable because I wouldn't want to say a politician, an American politician. A Donald Trump, but yeah, well, I wouldn't want to say an American politician. Oh, you would.

Just a person. A Bernie made off. Bernie made off the burning made off burn the state burning it up is dead i feel like that's rude okay but if he were still alive he had a monkey made off dyer see so i thought i'm a still i don't think he has i think he's dead

i'm trying to set up a scenario so burning made off everyone agrees is reprehensible i guess so he didn't do it if Bernie made off asked me to hang out. I wouldn't hang out with Bernie made off. This is presuming that he wasn't in jail. Or dead. If Bernie made off said, will you come over and hang out with me? I have a monkey and you can meet it.

He's alive. I'd be like, all right. Yeah, I'll meet the monkey. So I'm going to Bernie made off. So just to be clear, never met a monkey. Just to be clear, reprehensible public enemy number one, Bernie made off. Regular invitation, he's not in jail.

He's like, let's have lunch. You're like, no way. But he says, let's have lunch at my place. You can meet my monkey. The answer is yes. Is that what I'm understanding? Yeah, I mean, if I get to feed it grapes and stuff. Okay.

So the monkey you have to interact with the monkey too. You can't just like monkeys. Monkeys love grapes. Yeah, I don't know. Dogs, I know can eat grapes. I don't. So the monkey you have to interact with the monkey too, you can't it's not just the monkey. Monkeys love grapes. Yeah, I don't know. I dogs I know can eat grapes. I don't know how I'm what the monkey is with grapes. They train monkeys with grapes. So I think what you're saying is, friends bad, sign felt good.

That's what I mean. Well sign felt, here's the other thing that I also, so we have this show called We Got This, which decides important questions. And the hosts of that show came to me and they said, we want you to come on the show and we're gonna talk about Best 90s sitcom. Okay. I'm like, well, number one,

I'm really gonna alienate a lot of people who like friends, I know that. Yeah, friends, I know a lot of people like it, I don't find it interesting almost at all. No, it's lame. I mean, there's some good actors on it. Sure. I mean, that's what I'll say about it.

Yeah, but that's like saying it. Some really good actors. I mean, yeah, but. There's some really good actors on it. Jennifer Ann is funny. Jennifer Ann is kind of a good actress. Courtney Cox is a good, funny actress. Chandler.

I can't think it was, what is his name? Chandler. Lisa Kudrow, Matthew. Lisa Kudrow is great. Yeah, Matthew. Lisa Kudrow is legitimately great. Yeah, she's a genius, but she's really fantastic. You know, Sean Connery is in the League of Extraordinary gentlemen.

It's not a good movie. Yeah. So anyway, Sean Conner is a good actor. Anyway, I mean, it is a wife-beater also. So I think, I don't know. They feed monkeys grapes to train them. I guess that's where we're going to have to leave it. No, actually one more question before.

And we went a little bit longer. This is really fascinating. I feel like we have not covered even half the things I want to talk about. But actually, we sort of touched on this because we talked about your current situation. Is there... You're doing a ton of stuff.

You have a podcast network. You've got all these shows. You've got the Sampiara thing. You put this on. Is there a next thing? Is there a thing you want to do? A thing you, like, or you're like, I wish I could direct a movie. And now that's like what you're going after. Is there like another stage? There are projects that have been, that I've thought about, or have been pitched to me in some form or another, that I would love

to do, but I could only do them if I didn't do these other things. And most of the things that I do are things that I have to keep doing or they go away. Like I couldn't go a lot. I couldn't take a year off of running maximum fun or take a year off of hosting bulls-eye. Those things would be gone at the end of that year and they wouldn't be able to, I wouldn't be able to get them back. But, you know, like when you're on public radio, people email you and say, would you like to write a book about once a month? Yeah.

And I would like to write a book. It would be really a wonderful, fascinating thing to do. But that's a multi-year full-time job probably. Yeah. And I couldn't do it. I've often thought that I would like to make, I would like to do, I have migraine headaches and it's a huge part of my life and I feel like there's no media about migraine. You know, like there's like a blog. There's, there's no, there's basically not, there's a few books, but besides that

there's almost nothing. I mean, there's like those scenes in pie. Oh, I see what you mean. But you know know, do you get cluster headaches from migrants? I used to get cluster headaches. I get classic migraine, right. But, and very, very severe and chronic and frequent. And it's a huge, huge part of my life. And I think like, God, I would love to do something about that. Like, I don't know what it is, but I have some friends who also suffer from migraine.

You usually don't know who they are, you know? Unless it comes up, but like my friend Roman Mars, who does the podcast 99% and visible, is also suffers from really severe migraines. And I know other people as well, and I thought, well, man, it would be fascinating to make a documentary about migraine. But like, I don't, I don't have time to make a movie

to learn how to make a movie and make a movie. I have an idea, by the way, that just popped into my head when you were describing this, which is actually, I thought where you were maybe going was, you wanted to do a narrative fictional film about how all these people get migraines and somehow they're connected. It's like an alien thing or something.

I don't know. That's a freebie. No, it's like crash, but for migraines. It also is crash. It's crash. You mean not the crash with wound fucking, not the Kronenberg movie, but the one people intersect. No, the one with ludicrous. Mine would also have ludicrous. And no wound fucking in it, I assume. If it came up, if that was an important plot point, wow, this one. I want a force wound fucking into it, but if it was natural, you're gonna talk to me about it, right? You know the movie I'm referencing.

I'm not creating it. Yeah, there's a Cronenberg movie about people who sexually fetishize car crashes, right? Yes, yes, and the injury associated. I haven't seen it. Thank God. The injury's associated. It's not great. It's not a great movie.

I think James Spader is in it, which sounds right to me, because it's probably something. It's not as good as Crash, the movie that solved racism. Crash won an Oscar in... Yeah, for solving racism. In 2000. Give me an idea how big of a problem that was in America before the movie Crash came out. And all they had to do was get a bunch of people

with different backgrounds together on one fateful night, right? Something like that. At the end of the day, it's all about dialogue and ludicrous. It's true. Actually, ludicrous. It's true. Actually, ludicrous, unbelievable film career. Unbelievable film career.

Okay, you know what, I have to, I'm literally getting the wrap up sign from the producer, which is rare, because he usually just lets me ramble. Jesse, I really feel like we have so much more to talk about and I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. You're a fascinating man. Please don't interrupt me, you're a fascinating man. With a fascinating story and hopefully someday we can do this again and I can do the other half

of the questions that I didn't get to. Well, I'm glad to come back another time when we can talk about how great Tyrese is. I would love to do that. Jesse, thank you so much. Thank you. That is our show for this week. We'll be back soon with more, and as always, I wish you and your family the very best, though I've just been told that your family has been invited to have lunch at Bernie Bernie made us house. He said there was a monkey, but there is no monkey.