Tomorrow - Episode 99: Two Thumbs Up For Angelica Jade Bastién

Episode Date: August 16, 2017

In a world of hot takes and rampant nostalgia, one film critic was brave enough to face down a mission she wasn't meant to survive: An interview with Josh. Based on a true story, Angelica Jade Bastién is captivating as she reflects on Detroit, Get Out, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and Keanu Reeves. If you only hear one podcast this awards season, make it Episode 99. From the people who brought you every other episode of this Podcast Universe, it's “Two Thumbs Up For Angelica Jade Bastién.” This podcast is not yet rated. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, and welcome to tomorrow. I'm your host, Joshua Topolsky. Today on the podcast, we discuss Detroit, claustrophobia, and Keanu Reeves. I don't want to waste one minute, so let's get right into it. My guest today is an essayist and critic based in Chicago. She's currently a staff writer at Vulture and has written for a variety of publications, including The New York Times, The Atlantic, RogerEbert.com, The Village Voice, and of course The Outline. I'm talking about Angelica Jade Bastien. Angelica,

thank you for being here. Thank you for inviting me. I'm very excited because we have, so you've written for us a handful of times and early on we had a conversation and we had like, and I'm not going to talk about this right now. We will get into it later. But I started like bitching about the Marvel films and you were like, oh, yeah, I hate those.

And I was like, oh, my God, you're my new best friend. Like you totally get it. And very few people actually say that those movies are bad publicly. I feel like it's like it's an uncool opinion to have, which is weird because they're the most popular movies in the world. So it's like, I don't know. Yeah, it's a weird – nothing's new under the sun because the exact same baseline level of how they're made, they're not good movies. Narratively, character-wise, CGI. You mean like just as a film, like they're not a good film?

Yeah, just as a film, I don't think they're memorable. That's a strong statement. I mean, honestly, I can't remember any. Like I have seen, of course, I've seen all of them because like I'll watch them once they are out on like, you know, VOD or whatever. But I honestly can't remember what happens in which of the movies. Like if you told me the plot of Iron Man 3 right now, I'd be like, I guess that's what happens. But it wouldn't stand out to me, you know? Well, they kind of blend in partially on purpose because they're treated as sort of interlocking puzzle pieces, always promoting the next film that's going to come out

as well as the film you're watching doing its own thing. So it's easy to get them really mixed up. It's basically just fan service. Every movie is just like, oh my God, they just showed. In the last one, right, or in Civil War, I can't remember which one it was, but they showed Spider-Man for a minute and people were like, oh my God, Spider-Man.

Yeah, and it's like, you know, I get why fan service works and it's, you know, I don't begrudge anyone for enjoying these movies, but I think it's important to discuss how they fail on a base level of film. They're filmmaking behind these movies.

They're just not good. Like visually they're very flat movies. They really are. But do you feel differently about the, not to get right into this, I mean, not to get into this particular conversation, but like, do you feel differently about the, the DC movies or do you feel the same way about it? Okay. So the thing is with the DC movies, I, in my head, I always kind of think of it like the Marvel movies are very, very almost aggressively boring. Like to the point where to say you hate them seems almost like too much because it's like they're not doing enough for you to even hate them.

They're like neutral. Yeah, they're just neutral to me. Like, you know, I get them mixed up in my head. They bore me overall. There maybe have been like a few moments in some of the movies that I'm like, huh. But I never really want to revisit them, which always says a lot to me about a movie. With the DC movies, especially Batman versus Superman, I'm still not sure if that was like a real movie or a fever dream I had. Right.

It is like movies are just like they're bad. I mean, they're aggressively bad, but they're also strange. They're also strange. They're very strange. Who decided to cut a movie like this? They're far more distinctive, but they're also bad. Batman vs. Superman

in my memory is like the Battlefield Earth of Superman. I don't know if you ever seen Battlefield Earth, but it's epically, everything about it is like they shot it all at Dutch angles. Like, I don't know if you remember it, but like the whole like 75 percent of Battlefield Earth is like Dutch angles, which for people who are listening who don't know what a Dutch angle is. It's like when an angle it's like a shot on like a when the camera's like tilted. So it's like for evil characters.

They use it all the time because it looks like deranged. But like the whole movies like that and like Batman versus versus Superman was like here's 200 million dollars to like I mean I wouldn't call it experimental or anything but it's like 200 million dollars to make like it's so bad it's almost like a student film in some ways no it's just really strange to me I mean that's all I kept thinking after I watched it like this is such a weird movie for something that a studio is sinking so much money into yeah because it like makes no sense and I kept wondering so who's the audience for this is it really diehard fans because if it was diehard fans they'd write the characters differently right and if it's like new fans then you're like in you're introducing all

this weird cryptic stuff that only like really hardcore DC fans are going to like recognize. Right. And not like I like the stuff that I recognize, but I was just like no one is going to know what this is or why we should care about these random dreams that like Batman was having. The dreams were insane. I was like, wait, wait. Hold on. He's having dream sequences in the movie now? Wait, wait, hold on.

He's having dream sequences in the movie now? But this is also like in Suicide Squad, they did the same thing where like they have those scenes with the Joker that are like and Harley Quinn where it's like they're related. I guess maybe I saw the extended version because I watched it once it was like available to like rent or whatever. But like they have these like extended sequences of like backstory that are horrible for like a whole bunch of reasons but also like what person watching this would be like oh yeah let's take a break from the current action and see some backstory as to like the joker's relationship with his girlfriend or whatever or like why harley quinn is so fucked up and then but batman does this batman versus superman does the same thing sorry not to go we're going in a way down a rabbit hole on this but like when he has the first dream sequence, it's crazy.

Yeah. It's like out of nowhere. It is crazy. And so like, I don't remember which order they're in. My God, that movie just has

so many weird tangents that seem like they're all unnecessary. It's like the tangent where we see Bruce Wayne's parents die again, like we don't know

how they die. Right. And then it's his weird dream and the one where like you see all these weird flying things, those like from the comics, those are dark-sized minions. like we don't know how they die. And then it's his weird dream. And the one where like, you see all these weird flying things, those like from the comics, those are dark sized minions.

So he's going to like pop up eventually in the movies. But I was like, no one is going to recognize what this is. Right. It's like total fan service, but it's also like does a total disservice to the film itself as you're like getting into the universe. That's the thing that I was like,

Oh, so it's old Batman. And I think they're kind of saying that like was there a robin and robin is dead like don't they yeah which has happened yeah no it happened but it's like hey you just so you're not it's not christopher nolan's batman anymore which by the way like that's fine do your thing but really do a new thing right Do your thing. But really do a new thing. Right. But so then, yeah, it's so crazy. And the dream sequences are so insane. Like, they're all presaging the Justice League movie. And it's like, you know that people need to enjoy this movie, right?

Well, yeah. It's such a problem. I'm like, you're not letting anybody get invested in what we're actually seeing on screen. So it's, I think it's a failure in a lot of ways. But they're kind of fascinating ways to me. I still can't believe it's a failure in a lot of ways, but they're kind of fascinating ways. Yeah, they're aggressively. I still can't believe it's a real movie. They're aggressively bad, like Battlefield Earth.

Okay, one thing about the Batman v Superman movie that I want to talk about and then we should move on. Are you familiar with the Doomsday, like, backstory, like the original backstory? Right? That's the name of the villain at the end or the monster at the end that kills Superman, right? It's the name of, that's the name of the, the, the villain at the end or the monster at the end that kills, that kills Superman, right? It's doomsday. Yeah.

Yeah. It's doomsday. But the real doomsday backstory, his original backstory is really awesome. I'm not going to go into it, but he's a really awesome backstory and they completely ruined it. That's the thing. It's like they're doing fan service.

Like you already said this, like they'd write the characters differently, but they literally take like one of the best backstories ever from that universe. And they made it into this dumb whatever happens with Lex Luthor. It seems so ridiculous. That was so...

I totally forgot Lex was in that. Oh my god, I forgot a lot. He's like, I'm going to create this creature using my DNA and Kryptonian DNA. It's like, what? What's happening? Why, dude? Why does the ship

allow that to happen there he it has like a setting that he can do that it's like why would that be a thing okay anyhow i mean we're obviously rehashing something that's already been panned by every critic in the world yeah like it's like it's like that's actually a great movie um although it was a huge hit so that says something about i, all these movies make a lot of money. I mean, because they're aggressively marketed. Right. And people like familiarity, and that's why we kind of end up seeing those movies. Right.

So, you know, it would take, I think, not just one, but more than one of these movies tanking terribly for Hollywood to even think, oh, maybe we can just do a standalone. Or maybe we should experiment more with these characters since people will go to these movies anyway. Yeah, they're so, I mean, they're so predictable. I mean, I do wish like in some way that they weren't trying to lump all of it into like if I feel like if they spent this, if they did like what Game of Thrones is doing, I don't know if you watch Game of Thrones or not, but like if they did what Game of Thrones has done for those books with these characters on television,

it would be kind of amazing, right? Like to see it evolve over seven years or something. I feel like film is so limiting for comic characters. You disagree. I don't actually. So I think there's certain stories and certain characters that could be very well suited to,

you know, following them throughout various stories. But I actually am a huge fan of just a good standalone. Interesting. Just a good standalone. Really? You don't like a serialized, extended, seven-year journey? I mean, I can, but I also really like, you know the very short uh miniseries that sometimes happen in comics like uh tom king's uh version of vision was really good and you know you don't need a

seven-year saga with if you wanted to adapt that story so not every yeah but maybe there would be in in like batman versus superman they probably wouldn. Superman, they probably wouldn't have to cram so much stuff into, like, a two-hour movie. Well, yeah. I mean, I think the thing is, what a lot of these

comic book movies are doing is they're adapting the gargantuan sort of stories, or sort of adapting them. Like, they're talking about the first

Flash movie, if they'll ever come out, being based on the Flashpoint story, which makes zero, zero, zero sense. But that seems more suited for a TV show because there's just so much going on in that. Can you give me a recap of what the Flashpoint story is? Okay, so Flashpoint sees the Barry Allen character,

so the Flash, decide to travel back in time to save his mother from dying. And what happens is by saving her, he ends up messing up the universe, which is kind of like what he does a lot. Like he travels in time and then screws something up. So it ends up creating a completely different version of the DC universe as we know it. And so it actually has a lot of stuff I really like. And so, for example, what Aquaman and Wonder Woman, along with, you know, the various people they represent are in an all out war that is like totally affecting the entire Earth. war that is like totally affecting the entire earth uh when it comes to batman uh bruce is actually the one who died and his father ends up becoming batman uh superman doesn't exist how he

does in our universe so earth one however you want to call it and so he never landed in kansas and so he was never raised and so it's so I think the government ends up finding him. And it's really sad, actually, how Superman's story goes. Well, no spoilers, but I'm assuming that maybe he's— But it's actually really, really fascinating. It's like the fun, huge, weird sort of story. But I don't know how they could pull that off now and how the film universe is because no one— there's a lot of people who aren't set up already So how would you even pull that off right?

Right, but see that's it So this is my and I and this is why I'm saying like a TV show You could introduce the flash and like season one two three whatever and then make season four all about the flash out He like completely fucks up everything and yes Ryan. Sorry my producer flash TV show and no I know we are tough stuff I will point out do they do any of that though on it yes they did have a flash point that was what happened like last season oh so they did it yeah they did it but of course it's very different because in that version the cw version of the flash does not have batman wonder woman

it's like the earth is totally different they're like but we can't tell you how but just trust The CW version of The Flash does not have Batman, Wonder Woman. Right. Of course. It's like the Earth is totally different. They're like, we can't tell you how, but just trust us. It's different. So they have like, you know, obviously the Legends of Tomorrow are on the seat, have their own CW show. And then they have their Walmart Batman is how I call him. Who's that? Green Arrow, which is a character I love in the comics, but for the TV show

that they have, he obviously is like their version of Batman because they couldn't get Batman, so they decide, oh, well, here's another rich white man. Let's just somehow make him more of a Batman broody figure, even though Green Arrow is not like that in the comics. He's not a broody, rich, you know, asshole. I've never seen Arrow, the show. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back with more from Angelica. Thank you. Okay, we are back.

I look, I look at, I mean, I see those CW shows and I'm like, no. I mean, is Gotham a CW show? No, that's a Fox show. Oh my God. What? Oh my God, like don't even look at it. Why? But The Flash is actually like I will say, I still watch it

and review it obviously, but I will say I think the first season is pretty damn good. Like just as no qualifiers is actually just a really fun, propulsive season of television, the problem with The Flash is it's kind of, which happens with a lot

of CW shows, they kind of realize what formula works for them and then they sort of like replicate it a lot. Did CW do Riverdale? Oh, yeah. That is a CW show. What did you think about Riverdale? Oh, I love Riverdale. Really? I love them crazy kids. Really?

I don't know, man. It felt so much like a TV show to me. I was like, this just feels like a TV show. But the funny thing is, I love them crazy kids. Really? I don't know, man. It felt so much like a TV show to me. I was like, this just feels like a TV show. I love those ridiculous no teenager looks like this. No teenager is talking about Montgomery Cliff. Like, okay, yeah. Are they watching like Turner Classic movies? I don't understand.

All the teenagers have like furs and shit and like what? They're like wearing high heels and like taking a limousine to school. It's like, come on, guys. This is not real. I love that. It's so like ridiculous and like broad and over the top. And it's like, it has this broody voiceover from Jughead that's straight out of a noir. It's so ridiculous,

but I, I love it. I mean, I thought it was going to be darker. Like I kind of was like the ads for it. I was like, Oh, this is like teen twin peaks. I was like, cool idea. And then like, I watch it. I was like the ads for it I was like oh this is like teen twin peaks I was

like cool idea and then like I watch it I was like this is just like a teen show with like a little bit of murder maybe hanging around somewhere in the edges no I think it becomes like did you watch the whole season no god I watched two episodes and I was like no oh no it's like so one of my favorite characters is Cheryl Blossom because she's pretty much ripped from a gothic drama. And her whole storyline is so ridiculous. But so it's such a mishmash of genres. So it has this heavy noir influence. You have a bit of the gothic drama romance vibe from her character.

And then obviously it's like this campy touch. I don't know if they know what they're doing, but I kind of love it. Interesting. Okay, so you recommend Riverdale. That's a shocker. I did not see that coming. All right, let's pivot here a little bit for a minute.

I want to get into some serious stuff because the comic stuff is slightly less serious, I think. You did a review of Detroit, the film Detroit, which is Catherine Bigelow's new movie. Catherine Bigelow, who directed Zero Dark Thirty and why am I blanking on her? Oh, Hurt Locker. Bigelow's new movie. Catherine Bigelow, who directed Zero Dark Thirty and why am I blanking on her? Oh, Hurt Locker. And Point Break. And Point Break, which is

an awesome movie and Near Dark. And I don't know if you're a Near Dark fan or not, but. I love Near Dark. I actually like a lot of her earlier work. It's what's been going on the last few years that it's just like, huh. She's like pivoted to like weird propaganda in some way. Like hurt locker i feel like is really proper it's like hurt locker in zero dark 30 i feel like come off as very like u.s propaganda in some way but um near dark's an

amazing film which i had seen part of a while ago and then i finally re-watched the entire thing and it's like i mean it's sort of not good, but it's amazing. Like you can tell the person who, who made that film is like, has an eye for things that other people would never notice. It's really kind of an impressive, and also like, it's just like Southern vampires. Like you can't go wrong. Yeah, it's great.

Um, but you see, you did this review of Detroit and I read it and I was like, damn, like, holy shit. Like, this is no joke. Like you really did not like this film. I wrote, like, I actually, like, took a couple quotes and, like, did a quickie post on the outline just because I was like, this is so good and everybody should read it. And, like, can you talk about that review and, like, first off, like, talk about the film and that review. And then I'd like to hear, like, how the reaction has been from, like, you know, from other people in the space. Like, because I know there's been a pretty strong reaction to your review.

Yeah, sure. So I ended up, you know, seeing, I think it was on a Wednesday, I saw Detroit and then I had the review due Thursday. So I really didn't have time to process it completely. Um, I always think it's better to sit with the film. But when I saw it, I have never wanted to walk out of a movie as badly as I wanted to walk out of that one. But I couldn't because I obviously was writing the review for RogerEbert.com. I felt nauseous watching the movie. I was crying a lot. And when I got out, I just felt really angry and felt like it was almost like, I felt, it's really hard to put into words how angry and saddened I was by that movie. I was, you know, I came into it thinking, okay, I don't know how this is going to

go, you know, but I did not expect to have such a visceral reaction to it, like on a physical level too. Like I felt nauseous. And why? I mean, what, what about like, I mean, you say this in your review, but like, I'm just curious, like at what point did you realize, I guess, like, okay, this is not the film I thought it was going to be, or that this is not like, let me, let me actually, can I, can I read a quote from your review? Um, you said it wasn't the relentless violence inflicted upon black bodies or the fiery devastation of the riots ripping apart Detroit, but the emptiness behind these moments that got under my skin. Can you like talk about that? I mean, cause I, my takeaway from your review was you felt like the view, like the gaze of the film

was like kind of like damaged from the start, like had a kind of. Yeah, yeah, it definitely was. And, you know, a lot of people asked me in the wake of the review, oh, do you think it's Mark Bowles' influence on Bigelow's work? Because her work has taken a shift since collaborating with him. And he's someone who's very interested in violence, not the aftermath of it, but how it happens and like taking a very close eye to it. And that was partially my problem with the movie. But the other part is how the violence is shot is unflinching and sort of dehumanizing, especially because I kept tracking what, you know, a lot of black people were seen beaten or in some cases killed. And when we would see their bodies afterwards, you really,

you usually didn't really get a good view of their faces. So it felt very anonymous in certain points, which really bothered me. And something that you wrote about was this kind of idea of like depicting violence against black people without sort of seeming to understand or explore like where the violence is coming from or why it happens or the sort of systemic nature of it, which I thought was really interesting because you feel like this film has got to be about the systemic, the kind of underlying nature of this kind of violence, that particular moment in history. Yeah. But to you it felt like it was, I mean, this is not a question of research, is it? It's a question of like how you tell that story, right?

It is a question of empathy, in my opinion. Right. story, right? It is a question of empathy, in my opinion. And, you know, early in the film, obviously it builds to the point where you get to Algiers, the hotel that they're in, where you have this extended, like 40-minute sequence of black men being brutalized. But before then, you know, she tries to give our Catherine Bigelow and Mark Bowles focus a bit on what was going on in Detroit at the time. And it was just so telling that the black people and their anger, they're very much framed as just like common criminals. Like it doesn't really talk about, it doesn't really get deeply into, so why are they so angry?

But we see a lot of them looting and like all this other stuff. And I'm like, oh, okay, that's a choice. And just felt really dishonest historically. It felt, I felt it lacked any sense of morality. I felt as a film, the directorial choices made were also very dehumanizing. So it's not, it's like on multiple levels, the film just does not work. And, you know, people keep saying, oh, but it's starting a conversation. Who is it starting a conversation for? And what is this conversation? Right. Right. You need to be giving us more. If you're going to be showing black people brutalized so, you know, for a 40 minute sequence of it. Right. Unflinching. And it is terrible. And it is like, oh, you know, for a 40 minute sequence of it. Right. Unflinching. Terrible. And it is like,

you know, it's like a white screenwriter, white director kind of coming to this story and it is like, oh yeah, let's uncover this or let's showcase this so the world can know. And it's like, well, there's a big portion of the world, the world that actually experiences this still, right. That's like, they know. Right. And so that, that view is, is, is, I mean, you have to, to me, it's like, to just start the project at all. Like if I'm Catherine Bigelow, I'm like, okay, there's a lot of stories I can tell. Like what story am I uniquely positioned to tell? Like, is this the one that is like, needs my voice in it or needs my view versus like I mean I do feel like there are ways to do it I think you can make an argument I mean they're like you can talk I mean there obviously has been a ton of conversation about

the this HBO show confederate and like having the showrunners from from uh Game of Thrones doing it and it's like there's a lot of obviously necessary debate about who should tell a story and why you tell a story. And like, you know, there's, I mean, you know,

given the last like 72 hours in America, I think it's like a really obvious like time to talk about privilege and like the, the, the view that privilege gives you, like you do see this kind of blind, this massive blind spot. And by the way,

I'm not making an argument like that. Those guys shouldn't do Confederate. I think, I mean, there are arguments to be made. I think there's, I'm not like, let's wait and see. I do think there's something really flawed about the approach that they have this idea that they want to take a look at it and so they think they're the best people

to kind of tell that story. It's also just strange. They can do anything they want in the wake of Game of Thrones, and this is what they do? I don't know. That just seems something about it. It's just...

It feels like almost opportunistic in a way. Yeah, it's just very strange. You know, also one of the things that people kind of hinged upon in my review, which I find fascinating because it ends up telling me they stopped reading it very early on, is that I end up saying, you know, because of my reaction to the film, you know, I say watching Detroit, I realized that I'm not interested in white perceptions of

black pain. I never once actually say I think that white writers and directors cannot touch stories that deal with black history and black struggle. But that's how my review has been construed as. Right. Which is very upsetting. It's especially upsetting to get it from critics. It's one thing to have these racist trolls calling me all these terrible names or people undermining my intelligence. I'm used to that.

I'm a black woman. I have thick skin. intelligence. I'm used to that. I'm a black woman. I have thick skin, but to see critics I respect completely misrepresenting my review to make some sort of weird point that has, that's what's pissed me off in the wake of this. Has there been, I mean, I've seen some of the reaction from people on the internet. I mean, has there been, I mean, I guess I haven't seen them. I mean, I, what I will say is other critics, I feel like wrote very expected reviews of this film. Like, oh, you know, like a challenging, you know, like a raw challenging look at, you know, race in America or whatever. And it's like, okay, but I mean your review, I actually took away a sense that like there's like you show it and talk about it.

And then there's like you understand it. And the difference between showing it and understanding it. There's a big gap there. Right. And I feel like has there been I mean, have you talked to other critics about this? Has it been a response from like other have other critics been critical of your criticism of this film? Yes. But the thing is, the critical community, I think, is is very strange. It's a very strange community to be a part of. It's very strange. It's a very strange community to be a part of. And sometimes I feel that, I don't know, they get really threatened by people who don't share their opinion.

Or if there's more than one black person talking, they get confused or something. I don't understand. But the one that pissed me off that I only discovered recently is I'm a very big fan of the Still Processing podcast at New York Times that Jenna Wertham and Wesley Morris are a part of. And they're two amazing writers, two amazing black writers I very much respect. And they did an episode on Detroit. And I decided to listen to it, which may have been a mistake because they mentioned my review, although they don't name me, which I find sort of insulting, but I'm going to quote what they said about my review. Oh, wow. You're prepared. Oh yeah. Cause it pissed me off. Um, so they said, quote, it was Jenna Wortham talking, quote, a critic at rogereber.com essentially said that the movie was a travesty, not for the reasons portrayed in the film, but because they never wanted to see a

black gaze on a white gaze on black pain again, sparking this debate about who gets to make what film and whether or not Catherine Bigelow and Mark Boll had the right to make this movie to begin with, or would it have been better, uh, more capable hands. I'm using air quotes here, capable hands in the hands of a black director and a producer. So let me, let me, I'm going to, I tweeted about this, but I'm still mad because, because this is condescending. So they're saying that I, I had, I thought the film was terrible, not because of anything that the film actually did, but because I just don't, I feel uncomfortable with white people focusing on black pain. And that's not true. I made sure to back up all my arguments on an aesthetic level with

directorial choices in terms of how they shaped history, in terms of writing, in terms of what parts of the narrative they decide to skip over. So that's one thing. Do not come at me and say such a thing that misconstrues my work in a way that it makes me sound almost hysterical. Like I'm just running purely on emotion and I have no critical wherewithal. Right. Do you actually, you do think that's what they were saying? Oh, and then yes, because Jenna Wortham kind of chuckled when she said the not for the reasons portrayed in the film. So there was like this hint of, oh, they don't respect my opinion. There was just something like very condescending about it. And I was like, well, you either heard this secondhand or you only read like the first

few sentences of my review, because there's no way you can leave the review and say that, oh, I only hated it because of who made it, not because of what they made, because that's not true. Because then I go on to talk about, of course, white filmmakers can make movies about this sort of stuff. And there are times when there are good movies made by white people who deal with race. One of my favorite noirs from 1959 is Odds Against Tomorrow starring Harry Belafonte and Robert Ryan. And it's a crime story, but it also deals a lot with race. And it's one of the most fascinating movies in American history. Harry Belafonte did produce it, so that's a little different than Detroit. But again, I think film is all about collaboration,

whose perspectives you're letting inform this work. It's not just about the writer and the director. Right. So I think it says, you know, a lot about who Bigelow and Boll chose to collaborate with on this project. Right. I don't think them being white necessarily prohibits anyone from being able to tackle these subjects. And I would never make a claim like that as a critic. So I got really angry with people saying that if you're going

to come at me for something I wrote, actually read what I wrote. Right. But do you, do you think, and I, and I, and I do think that is like, you know, I think you, the review is very even handed in the sense, like it presents like a pretty logical case for why this is like the wrong way to tell this story. And like through like through the wrong like wrong lens and not like literally but figuratively. Right. Like I just you know, what's interesting is is. How do you I mean, if you're a white filmmaker, if you're Catherine Bigelow and you're really, this story feels really important to tell, like, do you just, I mean, I guess the question is like, do you just back away from it? How do you find the right way to tell the story? Or like,

what did she miss? I guess if you could say, Hey, you're going to have a do over, what would you do differently? Is Catherine Bigelow, can she tell this story at all? And if she does, what is it that's missing from the, what is it that she doesn't have now or didn't have now in this version that she should have had to tell the story better? Like, can you, is that something that you've thought about? You know, as a critic, I tend not to think of things like that because with Detroit, at least it would need to be a completely different movie. The perspective is weird. Its sense of history is off.

It lacks empathy. It would be a completely different movie that someone like Bigelow wouldn't make, especially the Bigelow of the last few years, who has a very blinkered perspective in questionable politics, while she is also a very propulsive action director. Right.

Which those impulses are kind of, it's kind of queasy to have such, um, you know, troubling politics while such having such a firm hand of creating like this claustrophobia and this intensity, it's kind of sickening. So cause,

cause it's not an, I mean, Detroit shouldn't be an action movie. Let's put it that way. Right? Like because the violence is – it's not like heroic violence. It's not like violence that saves the day. It's not like necessary violence to get – like you could even make an argument, okay, with Hurt Locker or Zero Dark Thirty.

You could be like, okay, well, you can justify this violence in some way. There's – I mean some skewed political justification for it. Whereas like with Detroit, with this scenario that the movie depicts this incident and this, this, I mean, this moment in American history, it's not like you can go, well, this violence is, is, is propulsive because it isn't, it's actually like repellent violence, right? And so I haven't seen it. So I'm at a disadvantage, but my takeaway from your review was

it doesn't do the job of showing why the violence is repellent and what the underlying motivation of that violence is. Yeah, it's like, oh, they're racist, which is like, yeah, duh, we get that. But I don't think it really says anything about how that sort of racism flourishes or how it's able to kind of continue on. It's like, it's very strangely structured as a movie, too. So it's like, you

know, you have this opening kind of framing the riots and the context of what happened at Algiers. the riots and the context of what happened at Algiers. Then there's a very long, like 40 minutes within the hotel. And then there's, you know, the rest of the movie, which quickly goes through the trial and all that sort of stuff. So it's kind of, it's very weirdly structured. I also just, you know, on that level, I don't think it's a well-made film in some ways. It's just poorly structured. It has no sense of history or well-made film in some ways. It's just poorly structured. It has no sense of history or not a deep enough sense of history. It doesn't really feel empathetic with its characters in the way it should. I mean. So do you get, have you gotten heat from other critics like this for other films? Like you,

we were talking before we started and I wanted to talk about this, but you said that you did not like Get Out, which I,, which I'll say I have not seen yet. And everybody listening, I'm sure, is mad at me right now for saying that I have not had a chance to watch it. I've wanted to like have like the time to really sit down and enjoy it. My time has been pretty shitty lately. But I've heard from everybody I know, like literally from critics I know but also from just friends and whatever. People are like, oh, my God, this movie is so good. My brother-in-law was like, you've got to see it.

It's so good. And like I'm very surprised to hear that you didn't like it. And I would love to know, one, why, and two, what the reaction has been from people when you have – I mean did you do a review of it? Did you review it? No, I have not written about Get Out because I did not want to step into that minefield. I know some critics feel like they need to write about everything. I'm not one of those critics. Right.

So there's a lot of stuff I just don't write about either because I don't feel I have a well-formed thought, I'm not passionate about it, or I just feel the blowback would be not worth writing about. Right. Right. It's like you're not going to get out of it as much as like the pain that you're going to get from people hassling you after you write it. I love the film, and it's done very well, and it's opened up all these conversations about getting more black talent behind the scenes especially. talent behind the scenes especially. The only thing I wrote about was about the whole thing that happened because of Samuel L. Jackson's comments about black British and black American actors. What did he say?

Samuel L. Jackson, he had an issue with the fact that a black British actor was cast in the lead role as Get Out because he felt that a British man would not understand the particulars of being a black American and how racist in our country well enough to inform the role. But the way he said

it was not the way to say it. I'll just say that. Interesting. Yeah. I did not know he said that. So what bothered you about the film? It's not that, I assume. One, I don't think it's much of a horror film.

Horror is a funny genre because there's always arguments about whether or not such and such film is really horror. I don't think Get Out is horror. I love horror. I don't think Get Out is horror. I love horror. I don't even think it's an effective psychological thriller if you look at it on that level. Really? Yeah.

Really? Yep. Because I have heard it described not as a horror film. I mean, I guess what I've heard is like it's horrific, not necessarily a horror film. Well, I can't spoil it for you, but I will say I think people are looking into the race commentary too hard because I actually don't think it's saying either anything trenchant

or interesting or meaningful or even that important about race, specifically when it comes to black people interacting with liberal white people. Really? I feel like I'm hearing this review from an alternate universe right now where it's like the opposite of what I have heard from everybody else. I'm not the only person who feels like that, the friends I have. I have a filmmaker friend who used to be based in Chicago, but now he's moved to Philly. And we ended up having a very long conversation about it. He's also black. And I was like, dude, you know, is it just me?

Or is the conversation around this movie, like, ridiculous? Like, it doesn't, it's not saying anything. I really don't think it's actually saying anything meaningful outside of maybe like the first few, not even the first few. I do like the opening scene. I think the opening scene is actually really good on a filmmaking level. But the rest of the movie, I actually don't think it's saying anything meaningful about race when you look at it. I think the twist, which obviously I won't spoil for you, is sort of outlandish in the moment it happens. Obviously, I won't spoil for you.

It's sort of outlandish in the moment it happens. I don't know how you can say that this movie is saying anything meaningful about race. Wow. I have to see Get Out. This is crazy. I, like, want to see it even worse now because you're saying you didn't really like it. I'll probably write about it once award season comes out. You should definitely.

I know you're a staff writer at Vulture, but you have a standing invitation to write about Get Out at the Outline if you want to write this very unpopular opinion about it. Okay, so we have a few more minutes, and I want to talk about something slightly less heavy because these were both, except for the Batman vs. Superman stuff, which is hilarious to me. Like this, like Detroit obviously get out. Like, and I mean, frankly, like you feeling, I mean, about the Detroit review, I am, I am surprised that you got as much heat as you got about the review. Cause I feel like your review had a really well thought out. I mean, it is, it was an emotional review. It was. I'm an emotional critic though. Like if you read my writing, I write from a place of passion. So that's not necessarily new. I also am surprised by the response just because I also saw a lot of people I respect sub tweeting me and I'm like, dude, we follow each other. I can totally tell you're talking about me. Really? You've been sub tweeted recently. That's so unprofessional. I'm not going to name names, but you, they probably know who they are are because it's like really weird. But, you know, I don't think anything I said in the review hasn't been said before by black critics. Like, hey,

maybe white people need to take a step back and really think about how they make these sort of movies, right? It's the same way that, you know, a woman talking about, you know, all the rape scenes we have to watch that male directors and writers seem a little too obsessed with sometimes. And you're like, hey, maybe you shouldn't do this. Or maybe you should find a better reason to, like, if you're going to do this. So I don't think anything I said was, I don't think it was controversial. No, I didn't think it was controversial at all. I mean, I think the rape parallel is really good. It's like, yeah, it's like if you're going to do that, like you're going to do that in a film or you're going to make that like kind of a centerpiece of a story.

It's like you better have a really good reason, especially if you're a dude who's like written and directed a film or whatever. And it's like, oh, yeah, there's a bunch of rapes in it. It's like, well, why? Yeah, why? Why are you doing this? Why are you showing an extended sequence of this? And there was, you know, I saw a colleague talking about their anger about how they feel like this modern form of criticism tends to focus too much about, you know, the identity of like the writer director, like lining up with the person they're writing about. And same with criticism, like only black critics can write

about black movies and all those sorts of things. And I don't think it's that simple. And I don't think anyone is, you know, I don't think anybody's really suggesting that that would be a terrible way to be a critic and an artist. We're just asking that you have a more informed perspective and really sit with and think about why you're making these choices and whether you are saying anything or if you're just reveling in the violence and, you know. Right. It's like, yeah, I'm torn about the debate, the Confederate debate, which I've read a bunch of stuff on and thought about a lot. And on the, at a first blush, I'm like, yeah,

like of all the people to do this story, like, are these the guys who should be doing it? And then it's like, well, this is, there is like fertile ground. Yes.

Like you could, there are stories to tell in this universe, but it's like how and who, like who tells the stories and how do you tell them? And it's like, why is a big question, right? And it's like,

if it's just because like we have a shitty president who's racist and now like racism has flared up again in America or is like more visible to people. It's like, if it's your reason is like, wow, what if there was the civil war had been won by the South? And it's like, it just seems opportunistic in a way that is inappropriate. And it's like, you gotta have a really good reason.

If you don't have a really good reason, like, why are you doing it? Yeah. I, I have no interest in Confederate. I can't stand those sort of alternate history stories. I think they're bullshit. I think they're boring. I think they lack imagination. I also like wonder how much of a sense of history people who like think that's a good idea, you know, have, I mean, really that's what you decide to do after game of thrones that really, I mean, also, also, yeah, it's like, I mean, there's literally men marching down the streets with pitchfork, I mean, with fucking torches, you know, it's like, you don't have to imagine, you know, it's actually not that good of an imagination to be like, what if racism was still prevalent in the United States? It's

like, uh, actually. Yeah. Actually, motherfucker. I can walk outside my apartment and I experience that. Like what? I think some white people are hilarious to be honest. I'm probably going to piss some people off saying that. Cause I get enough hate mails, you know, with people telling me that I hate white people. And I'm like, really? Okay. If that's what you got from what I wrote. Um, but sometimes I don't know, I think white people just lack perspective in some ways. I would say, I would say as a white person, I feel like I'm, I often lack perspective. I think like, that's definitely true. I mean, the funny thing is, I, I mean, this is so tangential, but to like what we're talking about,

but like I saw somebody, somebody tweeted at the outline today or yesterday and they were like something about like identity politics and oh, like people made it identity politics a thing. And now white people have been forced to reclaim their identity. Like, and this is what you get. And it's like,

it's like, oh, you're so, you have such a, a poor like view of your own you're so you have such a a poor like view of your own privilege that like you can't see how like your identity and like the identity of people who've been like oppressed and pushed aside are like so unrelated like this is not it's like oh you're talking about being black so now i've got to talk about my european heritage like no like that's all that anybody's ever fucking talked about.

Like, that's why other people are talking. It's like the first time you've heard another voice in the room makes you bristle. It's like you don't know what it's like to have, like, you don't have any perspective on your own existence, you know? Anyhow, it's just like shit like that is like, yeah, I mean, as a white

man who's confronted all the time with shit that I don't understand, like, I think it's really good to keep some healthy amount of like your mouth shut and your eyes open as much as possible. I think that's important for everybody. You know, obviously I have my own privileges. I'm able-bodied, of course. I'm in now or soon will finally have health insurance insurance. I, you know what I mean? Like, I'm going to cry. Which means I can finally get back on medication for my bipolar disorder, which is like amazing for me because it's been a struggle to not get proper care. So I, you know,

I think it's important for all of us to be very aware of the privileges we do have and how we move through the world and to listen to other people. And I think, you know, with my Detroit review, I just wish that people had better reading comprehension skills. But more importantly, you know, I just, I think my perspective does have value. I think these are important conversations to have. I don't need or even want everyone to agree with me. But I just want people to engage with my work in an honest way. I think overall people did. There was just some loud voices that got to me, I guess.

I think that honestly honestly we need – I mean it's interesting to think about this sort of people jumping on the comment about like you saying that you don't want to see white people depicting black pain. Yeah. I didn't even say that. I said I'm not interested personally. I'm not interested in watching it. Go ahead, white people. Have fun. You'll keep doing it. But I think, think about like in the world of criticism, like how many, how many black female critics are there looking at film right now? I

mean, I, to me, I feel like that's probably not a high number, right? Like of the percentages of critics. It's a small number. I mean, I'm trying to think. And so I feel like you bring a, you do bring a perspective like that is going to be informed by a lot of other stuff that's actually really valuable if we're going to try to widen our perspective on what art means. Yeah. I mean, this is my perspective as, you know, an Afro-Latina from the South that informs a lot of my work that definitely informs stuff like the piece I did

on the Beguiled. But it informs everything I do in one way or the other. Did you like the Beguiled? It's a movie I'm still sitting with. I did enjoy it. I have to see it again, though. There's stuff, I had a different perspective than other people's you know so how i wrote about it was a little bit different so like i actually i actually heard something i was listening to a podcast or i read something about the sofia coppola in the beguiled i mean this is like very relevant to the conversation we've been having like i guess in the original book and the other the film that was made i guess in the 70 book and the film that was made, I guess in the 70s, there's plots that are related to slavery in the film. I guess they cut out, sorry, in the other film and in the book, that she basically cut out completely.

She's like, I don't want this to be about race at all. And so I just want it to be about these people. And it's like, okay, but you said it, it's like a civil war era film in like the South. Like, how are you, how can you make a film like that and have it not have that not like your omission of it is almost having it play a role, you know? Well, that's my, I wrote a big piece about the guiled where I said, you know, her taking out, you know, in the previous film, there was a black slave character in the book, there's a black slave character in a biracial character. And I argued that there's no way you can take out race from these stories. It's still present in the film.

And I was also kind of annoyed. And I've talked about this, obviously, in my piece and elsewhere piece and elsewhere, that people are so obsessed with auteur theory that they tend to view everything from the lens of that specific director. But I actually think the Beguile accidentally, it's not Coppola's doing, actually ends up saying a lot of really interesting things about white women's supposed fragility and their obsession with themselves and the obsession with the South in general. And how, to me, race was very, like, I noticed it automatically, even with having the absence of Black characters. You do not need to have Black characters for the presence of race to be apparent in the South. And, you know, part of that is my own perspective as someone whose family is from rural Louisiana.

When I watched that film, I immediately noticed it was shot in Louisiana. So I chuckled when it said Virginia. I was like, that's not damn Virginia. That's southern Louisiana. It was shot in Louisiana? Mm-hmm. Shot in and around New Orleans. And where is it?

I'm trying to look if there's a part of my piece that I could mention. So there's a point in The Beguiled where the character played by Elle Fanning is annoyed at tending to the yard. And I'm like, that is such a privileged white girl thing to not want to tend to these problems. And the fact that the yard is

overgrown and that they're not wearing their hoop skirts and like certain details that I'm like, oh, they don't have slaves. Like you can automatically tell the absence of black people in the movie has weight and ends up adding some very interesting commentary. And like, and think about, right, and think about just being able to look at it and say, this is saying something by not saying something. Whereas I think a lot of critics, just generally, I mean, critics who don't know history or didn't know the previous film or the previous book or whatever, I mean, that's interesting to me.

I mean, that is just being able to say the omission of something or the absence of something is meaningful here. And I don't think she did that overtly. Do you think she did that overtly? No, I think that was an accident. I don't think, you know, but you can't scrub race out of the South. It's like impossible. I mean, part of what I say, I say in the piece that I wrote for Vulture, I say Coppola has accidentally created a film that acts as an indictment of the

very brand of womanhood she's enamored with throughout her career, white, privileged, and unable to see the world beyond their own desires. And how I looked at the film was it's these women's versions of their own lives, which is like a warped version of it. Of course, they're not going to have the slaves in their telling of the story. Of course Coppola wouldn't. She just doesn't know how to handle that. And that's fine. I mean, I'm not looking- Oh, like she, like the meta level of it is like, it's like her privilege to not have to deal with that storyline or whatever. Yeah. And not for them not to have to reckon with it. Like there's a moment where Nicole Kimmon's character towards the end is, you know, very wistful about her past and imagining all the people who had come through the house and their full regalia and da-da-da-da.

And I'm like, this is such—Coppola doesn't realize it. I'm not sure anybody realized it when they were making it. But it's such an interesting emblem of white femininity and how it's regarded and upheld in this country and its obsession with itself and the South's obsession with itself. And it ended up being commentary on that for me, even if Coppola wasn't aware of that. But again, I'm someone who believes that you can't look at a film solely through the supposed auteur of it because that's too narrow. Right. Right. It's not just like what it is or just who made it.

It's like the sum of lots of parts. Yeah. There's a lot of things to analyze with The Beguiled. I mean, I think it's a really interesting film and where it's placed in sort of the history of Southern Bells in film, which is one of my obsessions, which is a weird obsession to have as a black woman because Southern Bells are, you know, terrible white women. Right. I mean, almost exclusively. Yeah. That's sort of the thing. So you're obsessed with that though. Yeah, no, I find, I think it's important as a black woman to understand how white people, especially white women, work.

Right. I agree. It's all like a survival mechanism. No. I'm also personally trying to understand how white women work. We all are. I mean, white people in general. Yeah, no, seriously.

No, we're very confusing. So, okay. So, we got to wrap. But before we go. Oh, man. I we got to wrap. But before we go. Oh, man, I wanted to talk about that mother trailer. Okay, let's talk about the mother trailer. Let's talk about the mother trailer. Because we did say we were going to talk about it.

So let me just set this up for anybody who doesn't know what mother is. So mother is, and tell me if I'm wrong, the new Darren Aronofsky movie. Is that right? Correct. It stars Javier Bardem and Jennifer Lawrence. Michelle Pfeiffer. Yes. Ed Harris. Ed Harris, yeah.

Don Hall Gleason has a part in it. Oh, yeah. Is he the dude from Preacher? No, no. This is the dude. Who is this little redhead? He was in Ex Machina. He was a little redhead.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not little, but. Oh, he's the tall. He's actually really tall, isn't he? Yeah, he is tall. But I call anyone I don't know little or kid, even though he's not. The very tall man from Ex Machina. Yes, very tall redheaded man.

Yeah. And the movie's coming out actually next month. It's coming out very soon. And, you know, they released a trailer that does not give people really any answers, but just sort of evokes whatever mood they're going for. I have a theory about this trailer.

Okay, what's your theory? Well, wait. Do you want to talk about it, and then I'll tell you my theory? Sure. I can't wait to watch Michelle Pfeiffer eat Jennifer. I actually am not a good actress and don't have as much charisma as people like to say Lawrence on screen. Because I am a huge Michelle Pfeiffer fan. Like that moment when she like steps up to Jennifer Lawrence in the trailer, I was like, kill her.

Do it. So you're not just a Michelle Pfeiffer fan, but you're a Jennifer Lawrence hater from what I hear. I wouldn't say hater. Hater is such a strong word. I wouldn't describe myself as a hater, from what I'm hearing. I wouldn't say hater. Hater is such a strong word. I wouldn't describe myself as a hater of anything. But you're not a huge fan of Jennifer Lawrence.

No, I think she, I don't know. She, hmm. She's someone who sucks the air. She sucks the air out of every scene she's in, which always bothers me when actors aren't

really giving partners with their fellow actors. I find that sort of annoying. I think she's charismatic, but not charismatic enough to pay for over her faults as an actor. I don't know. I guess you haven't seen Passengers with Chris Pratt. I'm just kidding. I haven't seen it.

Have you seen it? It's so strange. Is it bad? It's really bad. It's also just like, who? Oh, God. I can't like, who? Oh, God. I can't believe they let, oh, God. I mean, I read the script ages ago when Keanu Reeves and Rachel Meg Adams were supposed to star in it.

Yes. That I would watch just based on the casting alone. I would, too, because obviously I'm a Keanu fan. John Wick? You like John Wick? I love pretty much everything Keanu's done. I have watched and studied and cherished very deeply.

I'm trying to think of a bad Keanu Reeves movie right now. Hold on. I probably like it. Devil's Advocate. Oh my god, that movie's so bad. It's so great. Wait, that's the one with Pacino. He plays the devil, right? It's so ridiculous. Oh my god, I love it. No, I saw that

in the theater. Oh my. Let me just tell you. Well, I was like, I mean, that movie came out. It was a while ago. Yeah, I was like, maybe I might have been a teen when that movie came out. That's not a good movie, though. I mean, I would never argue that it's a work of art. Yeah, it's definitely

not a work of art. I mean, it is some kind of work. It's definitely a work. It's a work. No, it's definitely not a work of art. I mean, it is some kind of work. It's definitely a work. It's a work. Um, no, but I, I mean, I love Keanu as an actor, which always throws people off because, you know, people know I write a lot about acting. And then when I mentioned Keanu, they'll like, you know, do an impression of him saying, whoa, or some bullshit. Yeah. You don't like that. You get that upset. And I'm like, you know what? Like, I think, you know. What's his greatest role? What's Keanu's greatest role?

Oh, I can only pick one? Well, yeah. You got a top. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. You're going to a desert island. You can take one Blu-ray with you. One Keanu Blu-ray with you.

What are you going to take? Well, see, the thing is, if I could only take one Keanu movie, I don't think I'd choose his best work. I'd choose the one I have most fun. I don't know. I'm sorry. Asking me to choose one Keanu film is like asking me to choose which one of my cats I love more. It's impossible. Okay.

Okay. So it wouldn't be Point Break is what you're saying. Although I do love Point Break. That's a good ass movie. No, it's like a really good ass movie. And people don't realize how good Point Break is. I mean, it's ridiculously good and also ridiculous. Yeah, it's beautiful.

It's sublime. I love that movie. I didn't realize, I kind of forgot that, so Catherine Bigelow directed that, right? Like, I sort of forgot that that was her film. She did some really weird shit. Before she got kind of lame, because I do feel like her latest slate of films are very Republican in a way. I feel like she did some really weird stuff.

And that movie was maybe her peak. That might be peak Catherine Bigelow, honestly. Yeah. It's so, I don't know. I think it distills a lot of what she can be good at. Certainly the one with the most Keanu in it. Yeah, so that would mean it wins on my list because, you know, Keanu. Because you love Keanu.

Okay, here's my mother trailer idea. So I don't know what the film is about at all. No one knows. I don't know when the film is set. I believe, here's my theory. Okay, it's a really, it's a very, I've only seen the trailer like twice, so. Okay, let's hear this. Okay.

So I think Ed Harris and Michelle Pfeiffer are older versions of the, of Javier and Jennifer Lawrence. How? I don't know. That's just how I feel. I mean, that's just my feeling is, because they're like, she's like, they have a photo of you in their bag, and he's like, why were you going through their bags

or whatever in the trailer? And I'm like, yeah, why would they have a photo? And the photo looks kind of old. It looks kind of like a photo from the 1800s or something. Oh, honey. I don't know. I saw someone mentioned that and i could almost buy it with the whole jennifer lawrence michelle pfeiffer end of it it's the

other end of it no you don't think he turns into ed harris yeah he gets like he gets like way scrawnier and way whiter yeah i guess that's, I don't know. You know, time can affect people in strange ways. Apparently, dear Lord. I don't know. I don't know where it's going to go at all. I'm not even thinking about theories. I'm just sort of, it obviously seems like the kind of movie that really hinges upon its lead performance

when it comes to Jennifer Lawrence. And I'm like, she's stacked against some really, really, really incredible actors. Actors who not only are as or more charismatic than she is, but they're also just very talented on a technical level. And she's not good on a technical level. Michelle Pfeiffer's been kind of out of the mix for a while. She hasn't done a movie. Because she really was like, okay, I'm going to take care of my kids and my family,

which I respect, although I was angry about it for a very long time. She's amazing. I've been waiting for Michelle to come back. Thank you, Michelle. But Aronofsky, he's kind of a wild card, don't you think? What's the last movie he did? What did he do, Black Swan?

Noah. Oh, Noah was bad, right? That was really bad. Noah was so strange. I was like, Darren was like really bad so strange i was like darren what are you doing i feel like strange is your code word for bad no i mean some of his choices are just like surreal in ways that i just don't understand where they're coming from um and i love some of aronofsky's films and then others i'm just like, what the fuck? I actually do love The Fountain. Oh, really? Okay, wow. You're a serious contrarian.

I'm not a serious contrarian. There's actually some hardcore The Fountain fans I've found in recent years. It's not only me. Get a Facebook group going. Fans of The Fountain on Facebook. I mean, I think when it came out, it definitely was. Um, but it's one of those movies that I consider, uh, that saved my life. I ended up seeing it, uh, right before I was institutionalized for the second time when I was about 16 years old. Um, so the memory of that

movie really got me through some of the toughest times of my life. And I find it to be like a very beautiful moving film about grief. Um, so for me, it's a very personal thing like that. See, now you're, now you're making me think I need to reconsider the fountain. I feel like you've got, you're selling it actually. See, I'm good at this with all my, like my Keanu love, loving all this weird shit. I can, I can tell. I'm going to go home and watch the whole Matrix trilogy right now. Okay, I'm not saying you need to do all that, but like. Okay, listen,

I'm, I'm, unfortunately, like I've got to wrap up, but this is so fun and I really super enjoyed this conversation. Like, I feel like we have so much stuff to talk about. You have to come back. Like, after you anger a bunch of people with your next, you know, major scathing takedown of a film, which I know you did not intend to do because I know you were like, you tweeted at me and you're like, I didn't think it was like scathing. I was like, no, I didn't say this, but I was like, no, it's definitely scathing. But like, anyhow, you've got to come back and we have to talk about more stuff. Maybe after Justice League comes out. Oh, my God.

Because I know you're going to see it. I can't believe that's a real movie that's coming out. How? It's going to be so good. Aquaman is going to be like, hey. I mean, Jason Momoa is going to be hot. I mean, that's like sort of half my criteria in a superhero movie is do I want to fuck any of these people? Yes or no?

Wow. Wow. If it's no, then I'm like, oh, well. All right. Let's go down the list. So Aquaman, that's a yes. Hell yes. Uh, Batman. Hell no. Not played by Ben Affleck. Hell no. Wonder Woman. Yes. Oh, wait, who else? Uh, the flash. No, he seems like though he'd be like cool to hang out with, but also maybe a little annoying. Ryan is just grabbing his chest. I can see him from the booth. So, yes. So, Ryan, you would fuck The Flash. Is that what I'm hearing?

In a flash. Okay. Wait, who else? Is there a cyborg? No, I'm not fucking cyborg. I'm actually... Is that his name? Wait, is that his name? Yeah, cyborg. Yeah. Okay. That's not very unoriginal. I feel like they could have gone a little bit further than that. They're like, yeah, Cyborg, why not?

Yeah, that works. Who else is in the Justice League? Oh, I guess Superman? Superman. So the thing is, I think one of the best aspects of Zack Snyder's work on all these DC movies is that one, he let Henry Cavill keep his chest hair and two, that Henry Cavill has been shirtless at least a few minutes in all these films. And those are always my best parts.

I think the best parts. So yeah, it's pretty Superman. It's kind of, it is definitely like, there's like, it gets a little bit porny around Superman. I'm like,

thank you, Zach. I always like kind of fall asleep, like watching these movies, but I saw always kind of fall asleep watching these movies. But I saw Man of Steel with a friend of mine, and he likes to make fun of my reaction to Henry Cavill. Because holy shit, that dude, the chess character spoke to my spirit. He's very good looking, but I always confuse him with, what's his name from Fifty Shades of Grey? Oh, no.

Jamie Dornan. Really? Is that his name? I just feel like they're like interchangeable British studs. Like I feel like you could just put either one of them in the Superman outfit and it would just be like whatever. Oh, no. I don't find Jamie Dornan attractive at all.

Really? No. You like Henry Cavill. Yeah. That's like confusing In-N-Out Burger with Carl's Jr. It makes me so mad. Are they that different? Yeah.

Like for a lot of reasons. Wow. Okay. I don't know. I just feel like there's this, like, strapping British men. He's not strapping. I don't know. No, he got.

Do you see Fifty Shades Darker? He got. I'm not watching that. He really got cut. Okay, I've seen it several times. Because I love bad movies. Because they're like, okay, have you ever seen. I'm sorry, we're way on a down, a rabbit

hole here, but you've seen the Twilight films, I assume, right? Uh, like I think the first two? Okay. Well, the first Twilight film is a work of art. Like, and I think that, and no, I really, Ryan's laughing at me right now, but just go back and watch the first Twilight movie because it is like a fucking art film. And I think that at

least the first Fifty Shades of Grey has a very similar quality, which is interesting because the Fifty Shades of Grey has a very similar quality Which is interesting because the Fifty Shades of Grey book is based. It's like fan fiction based on Twilight. The first film is a lot like The first Twilight movie and maybe this is intentional But they are kind of like pointless and everybody seems like they're about to throw up in them Like when you see people talking to each other They look like they're just on the edge of puking like they're so nervous and turned on that they are to throw up in them. Like when you see people talking to each other, they look like they're just on the edge of puking. Like they're so nervous and turned on that they are going to throw up.

It's kind of amazing. No, it's, well, I don't know. That's how people, that's how some people react. You know, not me. Vampires. Apparently. And rich men and the women that love them. Okay.

I think this is a great place to end this. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this. Sure. You have to come back and everybody should read every word that you write on all of these different sites. But you're going to be, sorry, you are, this is sort of a new job that you're a staff writer at Vulture.

You've been writing for them for a while. Two years. And are you going to have like, is there like a column or is it just like you're just going to be writing all the time? I'm just writing all the time. What's the next thing? What's the next thing you're writing for them? What is the next thing? I have a piece about the legacy of Orphan Black that's coming out.

I have a piece that came out today about a certain scene in Insecure from last night that got a lot of conversation about racial dynamics and sex, especially with stereotypes on black men's bodies. I think that, what else do I have? Too much, too much. I have some interviews coming out. Yeah, I have a piece about what the loss of movie stars means for film going forward that I'm excited to see come out. What about Tom Cruise, though? He's still a star. Tom Cruise, whatever.

Sort of. I mean, that Mummy movie didn't— Are you dissing Tom Cruise? The Mummy looked bad. I didn't see it. That looked like a real piece of shit. But it also underperformed. So it's like even he is kind of feeling the changes of the industry at least on

a domestic level well he needs to shift to playing just evil characters first off because he's getting old he needs to accept that he's going to be the bad guy now and i mean collateral is the last really you know i mean the mission possibilities are entertaining yeah they are entertaining on some sort of level i love tom cruise he's He's my Keanu Reeves, Tom Cruise. I feel the same way about Tom that you feel about Keanu. I mean, do you, though? I think so. I mean, I'm pretty

obsessed with Keanu Reeves. Like, I'm pretty obsessed with Tom Cruise. Or as I like to call him, the Cruise missile. Okay, see, I'm not doing all that. See, now you have a nickname. You don't have a nickname for Keanu? I don't think you're dedicated. No, because I just call him Keanu, but right now I'm looking at my Keanu mug, I'm looking

at a framed picture of Keanu, and I'm looking at a print of Keanu. Can you send me, can you take a picture of that and send it to me, because I really would like to see this. So I can be made fun of? No, it is real. No, I would never make fun of you for liking Keanu. Speaking of Keanu, and then we gotta go. Did you see the film Keanu?

Yes, I did. Did you like it? I actually reviewed it for Roger Ebert. Actually, I thought it was cute. It was cute. Yes, cute. It was forgettable. You know, for a movie that makes us the two things I love, which is, you know, a Keanu

Reeves reference and cats, because I'm obsessed with cats. Like, you know, I thought it was okay. It wasn't that memorable. Could have gone further. No Keanu Reeves cameo either, as far as I know. No, you know, except for he voices the cat during that one weird, like. Oh, right. Yeah.

That's like one part of the movie I remember. Also, I think my reaction to the idea that, oh wow, Nia Long is in this. I love Nia Long. Wow, she's pretty much in a nothing role. That's upsetting. Go figure. Alright, we're going to leave it there. Angelica, thank you so much. And you've got to come back soon, okay? I will. Thank you so much

for inviting me. Of course. Bye. Bye. Well, that is our show for this week. We'll be back soon with more tomorrow. And as always, I wish you and your family the very best. But I've just been told that your family's been shot exclusively with Dutch angles in the sequel to Battlefield Earth. Thank you.