Tomorrow - TBT: Michael Shane Has No Fear

Episode Date: July 6, 2018

Throwback Tomorrow! On this episode you will hear Josh and Managing Editor of Bloomberg Digital Michael Shane: -Find out the meaning of Memorial Day -Talk through the lifecycle of a modern newsroom -Discuss how Peter Thiel plans to shut you up -Reminisce about Starship Troopers -Complain about Apple’s clunky interfaces -Discover how boring superhero movies are now -End on a positive note Is it funny? Yes. Is it enlightening? Yes. Is it passionate? Of course… but you’ll only discover that by listening yourself! Open your ears, mind, and heart to Episode 55 or forever wonder about what could have been. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's Ryan here. I'm just letting you know that because of the holiday we're reposting an old episode of Tomorrow as a special throwback treat. And if you've got an extra few minutes, if you could go to theoutline.com slash tomorrow survey and fill out a very short questionnaire that can help us monetize the show and keep doing it, that would be really great. So I hope you enjoyed your Fourth of July and if you live outside of America. Oh, I'm so jealous. Anyway, that's the Outline.com slash tomorrow's survey. Thanks. Hey, and welcome to Tomorrow. I'm your host, Josh Wotsfulski.

Today on the podcast, we discuss backlash, the apocalypse trilogy, and saga. I don't want to waste one minute, so let's get right into it. I guess today's one of my favorite people. He's a great talker. He's a great friend. He's a great thinker. He's a wonderful... he's wonderful to all of his pets. And he's a man that anybody should feel lucky if they get to call him a friend They would they should feel lucky. I don't know if they do I certainly do. I'm of course talking about my good buddy Michael Shane Hi Josh. Hi the managing editor of Bloomberg digital. I'm very I do love animals. We used to spend a lot of time together Michael We were we've we've been married at the, in some states, we're considered legally married.

And Bloomberg, we are considered legally married still. And I expect some serious, a serious payout when you kill. Oh, it's coming. I'm looking forward to your death so I can collect based on. Yeah. That's right. Just keep paying those life insurance premiums. Of course, I will. Anyhow, Michael, I always love talking to you because we can kind of talk about anything. And there's a lot of, there's a wide variety of topics to discuss. Now, I want to say that this is a Memorial Day podcast.

People will be listening to this while they're doing a cookout with their family. They're going to be with their friends and loved ones. They're going to be celebrating Memorial Day, which, of course, is we all know stands for uh... it is the day when our uh... would we know it the mean memorial days do you know i'm i don't know the challenger memorial days the holiday where we honor veterans of the

united states military what veterans day well i think oh here's a deal here's a deal i don't really know what Memorial Day is for. Well, I don't look at that right now. This is the thing. Okay, I got people who died. It's people who died.

People who died. This is the holiday that the song that song was written for. You know, the one that I'm talking about. I don't. You know, I'll probably stand up song next to you and Defender is still today. It's about people dying during wartime anyhow. You think I should just know that I'll the top of my head, but for some reason, I just

blanked completely on Memorial Day. So the reality is with Memorial Day, it is a little bit, I mean, people celebrate and they took out holiday. It's a bad holiday. But it's supposed to be a somber day. It's a somber. We should be chill on Memorial Day. I mean, we should not be celebrating.

This is a day to remember people who have given their lives defending our country. I assume it's specifically our country. It is United States holidays. It's great. You're not celebrating. If somebody else died defending their country, no party for them whatsoever. Do not. Well, they have their own memorial days.

Maybe they do. Maybe they don't, but I'm telling you as an american citizen do not celebrate them uh... memorial days for people who died in service veterans days for all veterans living dead past president that's right that's right and frankly i don't think we can have enough holidays for these people i would be good

well consider this situation you join the military in america and then someone's like, then John, President Donald Trump is like, hey, why don't we go over to Syria and crack some skulls? And you're like, okay, well I'm in the military. And then you have to literally shoot people to death

or blow them up or be killed yourself for because Donald Trump picked a fight in Syria. That's some fucked up shit, okay? And these guys, these men and women deserve a lot of credit for doing it. And frankly, listen, I'll be honest with you. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it, but I prefer not to, you know?

Well, that's why America has, you know, an all volunteer army, which is for me. Why would you have to, why would you need nerds? You know, who's gonna work the switchboard? That's me. Call me up, you need somebody to get some, get some fix a CPU, you know, get it would get install some RAM You're IT problems. I'm your guy. Do you want me to go get a gun and blow some people away? Probably not your guy

Do you'd be like the doogie house or character in? Starship troopers the Neil Patrick that's correct. I would I would be using I would have some kind of telekinesis. Yeah. We're in a telekinesis. What is it when you can, when you can, Yeah, telepathy. Telepathy. I'd have some form of telepathy where it's really sick leather outfits, like big black leather jacket, sort of Nazi-ish, but not too Nazi. A French coat.

And I would investigate why the bugs want to kill us. Yeah. Here's the thing, I feel bad for the bugs in Starship Troopers. I don't know if I'm the only person who feels this way, but at the end of the movie, when they're like, this bug is afraid of us, we can kill them. I'm like, fuck that. The bugs should take out humanity. These people suck.

I think that's what Verhoeven wanted. I think he wanted you to be more and more conflicted as the movie went on. I think Starship Troopers is one of the greatest movies of the 20th century. There's no question. There's absolutely anybody who questions that statement. There's no friend of mine.

Is not an American. And should not be allowed to celebrate Memorial Day, but also there's no question that Starship Troopers is one of the all-time great films. And of course one of our hovens best. Yes, absolutely. It's a sophisticated satire. It is. It's not just a gore fest. It's a sophisticated satire. It is.

It's not just a Gore Fest. It's not just, you know, action for action's sake. There's real, real thought and process in that movie. There's no question in my mind that there's so many, there are so many deep layers in Starship Troopers. Yeah. It works on, it works on a tremendously visceral action film level, but then it totally works on this other,

it is tremendous attire, but it's a lot of serious commentary about the state of wars and politics and citizenship, and what it means to be a modern person, trying to fight an army of bugs. And part of the reason I think it's so disarming, right, is because it's science fiction, it's in space, there's spaceships, and there's futuristic technologies,

and it's shiny and cool, but that just gets you to lower your guard. Right, and then when your guard is down the bug strike, and they get you and they stick their thing through you, and you're like, oh shit, this bug got me, and then you wake up into that, and it's like, I guess I'm okay, but then it turns out you have a robotic

pelvis or something. I don't really know what the point is. The point is the bugs were ruthless. The humans were ruthless. And at the end of it, we had to question what it really means to be a citizen. And anyway, so I didn't bring you on to talk about those are troopers though.

God knows I could speak. I will tell you what I'm supposed to troopers though God knows I could speak I will talk about special troopers any week Absolutely. Have we taught we haven't taught since I wrote my big medium piece about the media and I mean we've talked a little bit but we haven't talked on in public. No, that's true But I think you'll I think I would hope that you were appreciative of the fact that the image I used for that piece Was still from the great John Carpenter film, Prince of Darkness. Yes, yes, definitely. And in fact, I have to say, it's possible that that scene in the film was an inspiration

for writing the story about the media because if you haven't seen Prince of Darkness, I don't want to do a spoiler for you, but in all seriousness, it's the movie's from 1982, so if you haven't seen it now, or 1984, then they rate. Have you seen it? Prince of darkness. If you say no, I'm going to go fucking ballistic. I have not seen. Are you fucking kidding me? Are you kidding me? I'm not gonna see how. I can even have a friendship. Look, I'll tell you what, how do we even, how are we even relating to one another in this world as soon as we stop recording I'm gonna go grab Andrea. We're gonna cook up some dinner now. You're gonna watch Prince of Darkness

Andrea, let's just get this out in the open. Okay, Michael Shane is engaged to be married to a beautiful lovely woman who he doesn't deserve And you're getting married soon in July 30th, right? Yes, that's correct. Very exciting. exciting We're making our plans. We're very excited to sell very excited to have you I'm gonna be so blitz at your wedding I'm gonna get so better not be some kind of dry wedding or whatever cuz I'm gonna go no, dude Absolutely nuts on that open bar. It is there for you to partake and open bar is gonna be destroyed They're gonna be like we're out of alcohol alcohol You can say what happened and I'm gonna be like they're gonna stay on a slide in there and be like it was me You won't be able to you won't understand what I'm saying cause I'll be so drunk that the words will simply not sound

like any kind of language at any rate. So now you're gonna, you and Andrea are gonna watch Prince of Darkness. I'm making that commitment to you, but before my wedding, we don't wanna watch Prince of Darkness. What you really should do is watch the apocalypse trilogy, which is the thing you would you see in us. Of course, yeah.

And then Prince of Darkness and in the mouth of madness, which is one of John Carpenter's later, well, not later, but it's done in 95, and it's a tremendous movie. If you've been seen in the mouth of madness, I would watch Prince of Darkness and in the mouth of madness back to back, if you really want to thrill.

Okay, I'll do that. I mean, that's like four hours of your day, but whatever. He'd love anything else. You only live once, and so I read your medium piece, and I was sort of cheering and fist-pumping silently internally. I like that you've you sitting somewhere. I like that you've you sitting in a crowded, in the crowded Bloomberg office, secretly, quietly fist-p bump at your desk.

Or maybe you were fist bumping loudly, I don't really know. And I use the term desk loosely, because as we know, there's just one long desk with dividers. Yeah. Actually, I think they are separate desks. I don't know.

Now that I think of it, I'm thinking, in my mind's eye, I can't quite picture it. Neither can I, isn't there? It's a very strange, so neither one of us at any rate. But I think the point is you're saying something that everybody with half a brain is thinking. You know what's weird is that most people weren't saying it.

I think maybe people are afraid to say it. I don't, you know what, I'm all about like, I'm like the no fear sticker. Right, let's go fear in the 90s. Yeah, it was everywhere. Yeah, that's me, no fear. I'm all about like I'm like the no fear sticker. Right. That's me. That's me. That's me. No fear. I'm going to get away from you. Put me on your windshield.

Put me on your on your driver's side window. Well, look, did you when did you read when the New York Times put out their one year follow up to the innovation report? Did you did you read that? Was that the was that the February memo about how they're going to be? Yeah, the memo where they're like, Wait, is that the... Oh, no, it was the one before that one. It was last year, I think.

No. I mean, maybe I did. Go find it, I'm sure it did. But there was a lot of really stuff in there that I thought was really smart. And basically it boils down to... If you're for big news organizations, I mean, I think the way forward is to when you're looking at what products to make, where to invest your resources, you have to think about the audience, the segment within the audience you have that actually cares about you, that cares whether or not you live or die, that comes to you out of trust and out

of loyalty, the audience that you've earned. And I think we're going to see more and more news and media organizations orienting their decisions, resourcing products all of it around the audience that cares and that signals that it cares whether it's through their behavior or in the case of something with a paywall with their wallet. Either way, that's the audience that I think is gonna sustain both newsrooms and advertisers, which are also necessary for most newsrooms going forward. And that's why I agreed with pretty much everything you said.

And frankly, I haven't found one person yet who is willing to say they disagree with you. So, no one can say they disagree with it. Here's the nice thing because it's 100% correct. And I wrote it out of just utter frustration at watching the industry act like complete assholes. I mean, people, so many people in our industry are acting like, here's the, you know,

I actually shouldn't be so harsh. The reality is like, we've known this forever. So many actually really funny. So many tweeted at me today. And they were like, they tweeted a long form podcast that I did years ago. I remember that. And they're like, oh tweeted a long form podcast that I did years ago. I remember that. And they're like, oh, Josh Tupulski still has the same ideas about quality and clickbait

that he did when he founded the Virgin. It was like, I think maybe a year after we started or something. And it's like, yeah, I don't know any other way to be. Like I don't know, I mean, I can understand how you can make shit, but like, I don't wanna do, who wants to do that? Who wants to build their life around that? I get it like, you know, the problem is like, it's like, should everybody be, should everybody be doing this?

Like, how much, how much content can the humanity possibly support? Like, I think there's a real question to ask there, which is like, can all the content make it? And I do think, you know, like, there is a good, there is a good argument made that we can't make all the, can't think, you know, like there is a good, there is a good argument made that we can't make all the, can't have all the content, right? There has to be some, some whittling down of...

Well, and I think for, for large news organizations, for me, you know, part of the solution to that is a future that involves a very heavy dose of personalization. In terms of product features, what news is delivered where and when, you know, when it Bloomberg, my big mantra in the newsroom is write story, write format, write platform, write time, write audience. And then you have to get all five, right? And I think I think you're going to find over time, especially in big newsrooms that produce a high volume of stories, I don't know if we'll see the number of stories go down as long as we should the size of the newsroom is about the same, but I think what you will see is that. Oh, we're going to see numbers go down.

Well, maybe, but I think the key is that that five point checklist I just enumerated, I think you're gonna add sort of personalization, a sprinkle of personalization to all of it, to make it all a lot more effective. Because that's the only way to deliver an audience that says they care about you. If you put out 200, 300 stories a day, the only way to make sure that every single person

who's part of the audience that is loyal and cares and is actively engaged. The only way to take care of those people at scale is really fantastic personalization. Across plastic. Well, I think that's probably true, but I would also say that we have to, we have to, and this is kind of my underlying argument about all of it. And by the way, I just wanted to talk about the fact that I used to still from Prince of Darkness, but I will, I will talk about this more. My underlying question to the industry and to me

and to everybody, like to myself and to everybody else is like, what size should your business be? Because I think when you talk about scale, like we don't know, we actually are very confused about this answer. Like we're not sure what appropriate scale for a business is in media. We think because there is infinite audience or presumably infinite audience, that we

should be able to maybe we should be able to get that audience. I mean, if you say there's 3 billion people on the internet, what's to stop me from assuming that every one of them could be my customer? There's no barrier to them being my customer. All that to do is like, okay, maybe if you're in China, you can't get to my website or whatever. But basically, you can make an argument, right? If I'm a news business, you could say, well, we don't offer news about India yet,

but maybe we should because there's a big audience in it. And we don't offer news about China yet, but we should because there's a big Chinese audience. And on and on, and now Bloomberg, of course, is a global business, so it's a little different. You know, Bloomberg is by its nature at foundationally a global business. But many businesses are not, right?

That's absolutely true. Many businesses are like very localized and then they're like, okay, wait a second. Let's do, so my point is, but you could also say, hey, there's 300 million people in America. How many are online? I don't know, at least half? Probably more.

More than that, yeah. I would hope more than that at this point. I should know this number off the top. I have it anyway. You might say every American is our customer, but is every American your customer? And I would hope more than that at this point. I should know this number off the top. I have it anyway. You might say every American is our customer, but is every American your customer? And I would say this, if you really know what the fuck you're talking about, your answer is definitely not. And also like no way, way less than everyone.

And like in fact, a much smaller number than the one we probably have. That's what I would say. I would say is like, what I would say is like the real audience is probably smaller than the number you think it is. And that's good. Well, if you know what to do with that audience. I think the reality is, and this is something you and I, I've probably talked about many times,

it's really way too easy to say yes on the internet. And it's much harder to say no. I just did it on the internet. Boom, see. So it's hard to say no and no one wants you to say no. And it's like, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, well, maybe one more won't hurt. You know, I said one more piece of, you know,

you know, you get that bag of Hershey kisses. Yeah, I mean, for like Halloween or Valentine's Day or something, you get the big bag of Hershey kisses. And Hershey kisses are really small, you know. And you're like, oh, but you know, I'm gonna have like five. And you're like, all right, whatever. And then you're like, shit, the bag, there's the bag just sitting here and all.

And then you have, and then you have diabetes. So the bag is gone and you're, and you die. You drop dead from several horrible ailments. But you know, it is like that. It is like, you don't kind of realize all you're saying yes to these things over and over again. And before you know, you're like, oh, why did I eat? It's like this Mexican meal that I had just before I did,

I, we did the podcast. We started on. We started on. I had to go out of Maliburito, which is a really delicious. I'm sure you can imagine what it is. But anyway, I was like, look, I could, I could have just had a few chips. I didn't.

I had all the chips. And now I'm paying for it, okay? Yeah. I mean, this conversation is pure torture for me. You have to be really rigorous about what you say yes to and what you say no to. I agree. And in a business, the bigger it gets. Just like dating. Yeah, the more true is why. You know, it's, there's a lot of competing pressures. But ultimately, the reason it becomes difficult to say no to

things is when you have, once you reach a certain number of people involved in the business, it is inevitable that there will be different definitions of what success is operating at the same time. And that's when things really start to get messed up. And that's when you have disagreements over what you should say yes to and what you should say no to.

And so you have to sort of come together and hold hands at some point and really say, this is who we are and this is what we're about Tard Wow, what's a abrupt end there? Yeah, you get distracted by an email didn't you? No, I didn't definitely didn't just try to buy a tweet No, don't even have Twitter open. I'm so I'm so Jacked into this conversation. I'm also Jack ten. We are so pure. No, we're totally untainted by the flow and flood of content on the internet. But I've been having this conversation a lot with people. I mean, I mean, I'm sure it's very boring at this point,

but I do feel like it's not boring to me because I think the stakes are here, the stakes for me. We either go in the direction that we're going as an industry, and we keep making this commodity shit, which everybody makes, almost everybody makes. I don't care what your business is. I don't care if it's like your high quality, your local, you say whatever you say,

you're making most people are making commodity stuff. And by the way, sometimes you wanna make like the Chee Beatsy stuff cause it's fun to do and you're into it and you get something good to say. I totally understand that happens. And, but you know, the reality is like, for me, the way I think of it, this is a philosophical issue. And my philosophical issue is if my job has to be

making content for a vague idea of an audience, and the content is increasingly not useful and not meaningful and insults the intelligence of its audience, then I don't want to be in that business. Look, maybe this is just a word game, but maybe the job is not making content. Correct. The job is, who is your audience and what's your agreement with them? Are they coming to you because you've agreed that you will entertain them?

Is it that you've agreed that you will inform them that you'll edify them somehow? And that's the job is to meet that agreement. There's nothing wrong with entertainment. And that's what you do than by all means. But I think that we have this confused the situation that confuses entertainment and actually nothing for something meaningful. Well, I would pass as it off. I would edit, let me edit you real fast.

I would say we're in a situation where people are confusing scale with something meaningful. Mm, I couldn't agree with you more. I just finished my coffee and it was great. Worth every penny I paid for it. It's, um, Pete was the cake up. Oh, nice. Yeah, I'm not promoting Pete's. I'm just saying Pete was a cake up. Oh, nice. Yeah. I'm not promoting Pete's.

I'm just saying this is pretty good cake up. Have I ever told you how much I like my cake up machine? No. I'm again, also not promoting a curry again. Anyway, in fact, I think they're fairly despicable for creating a DRM version of cake ups, but, uh, but I have a lot of people, you know, a lot of people are coffee snobs. In that, by the way, I like a good cup of coffee.

I enjoy a tasty, um, a lot of people are coffee snobs. And by the way, I like a good cup of coffee. I enjoy a tasty, slowly made pour-over or whatever the hot, new way to get coffee is. But also, I'm just trying to get some fucking coffee in my mouth, okay? You know, I'm just trying to get caffeine in my mouth down my throat and into my brain. Let me tell you about a new kitchen appliance I have. I'm very fond of it. By all means.

I got a Breville centrifugal juicer. It's one of the juicers with a plunger, you know, and it's got the spinning thing and pull the rises. It's very good. It takes like a whole apple and drop it in. That reminds me, I just thought of you mentioning this, because I know you got to let use

that a wedding shower, didn't you? Yeah, we did have a wedding shower. I just remembered what I got you for your wedding. Hold on, hold that thought. One, I don't want you to tell me to be surprised. I wouldn't tell you. So anyway, I've been making green juice. Check out what's in this juice.

Yeah. All right, we got a lot of celery, a lot of kale. Sure, of course. A couple of cucumbers. This is all news to me, man. You got a whole new green juice. You got some lemon, some ginger, and some green apples. You got to put something in there like an apple because otherwise it's undrinkable. Exactly. Well, that's with the ginger, the lemon, and some green apples. You gotta put something in there like an apple

because otherwise it's undrinkable. Exactly, well that's what the ginger, the lemon, and the apple, or make it drink on the mouthwater right now, that's what I need right now as a green juice. Well come on over, I got a whole pitcher of green juice. I'm gonna be right there, I'm on my way right now to your house and I expect a very large, cold glass of green juice. It'll be ice cold, ice cold.

What do you do, you put ice in it? Well I keep a big, I make- Frozen veggies? Well, I make a lot, and so then I can fill up like a pretty sizable picture, and then I just keep the picture in the fridge, and I, you know, it's good for like 24 hours, so I try to- That's the thing, I was going crazy in your area.

Yeah, it's Brooklyn, it's around the- I love it, listen to the sounds, listen to the raw sounds of New York. Anyhow, what were we talking about? Oh, we were talking about content. Right. So, the first thing we were talking about, Prince of Darkness.

And we were talking about the Starship Troopers. It was all very good stuff. Anyhow, the point is, we need to talk about Peter Teal. Okay. Let's do it. I think here's what I'm doing. I think I want to take a break. All right.

I think we've been going for like 20 minutes or something. That's correct. Easily. You got to monetize this. I got to monetize this content. Okay. It's content is not going to monetize itself. Exactly. So, we're going to monetize itself. Exactly.

So we're going to take a break and listen to a word from our sponsor, which you'll hear the words from me. Okay. And then we're going to come back with more Michael Shane. Great. Tomorrow is brought to you by Video Blocks. Video Blocks is a subscription-based stock media company that gives you unlimited access to premium stock footage. Everyone can afford it.

It's a great value with an unlimited download model that gives you access to 115,000 HD video clips, actually more than 115,000 clips. After effects templates, motion backgrounds and cinemagraphs, and on average subscribers pay less than a dollar per download over the course of a year. You get the same content you would find on a more expensive stock site at a cheaper price. There's a great variety of time lapse aerials, US slash international locations, slow motion, nature shots, which are of course my favorite, because I love nature. In fact, I'm infatuated with nature and more. They're also continuously adding new content

so the library stays fresh. And subscribers receive membership only access to the marketplace for even more clips from their global contributor community. Everything is 100% royalty free. You've got unrestricted usage rights for personal or commercial projects and you can keep what you download and maintain usage rights forever. So get your subscription today for only 99 bucks at www.videoblocks.com slash x slash tomorrow,

which I know sounds complicated, so I'm going to spell this out. It's www.videoblocks.com. Okay, we're back with Michael Shane, Michael. I said we want to talk about Peter Teal. Teal man. I said this up. This ends up for real quick for the people who don't know. So last week, Nick Den didn't interview with the New York Times. And he said, look, I think a billionaire, a Silicon Valley billionaire has actually been bankrolling

the Hulk Hogan trial. As we all know, Gokka was found guilty in this Hulk Hogan trial. They were, get this crazy, Hulk Hogan was awarded a crazy amount of money, like $150 million or something. Yeah, I believe it was $140. $140, right.

And there were some unusual things about the case that sort of, I guess, led Denton to suspect that the person who was, the person who was backing Hogan's case, Hulk Hogan's case may be somebody that we didn't suspect. Anyhow, so it turns out the person backing, these, that lawsuit in several others is a billionaire named Peter Teal.

Peter Teal is amongst other things, he's on the board of Facebook, he's one of the PayPal founders or one of the very early investors in PayPal and a handful of other. He's on a PayPal founder, is he? Information you and I both should know, but neither one of us do once again. I mean he was part of the PayPal mafia. The PayPal mafia. That's correct. He's also behind Palantir But he's Invested in Facebook, LinkedIn, Yeah, I'm sorry he co-founded PayPal. I was right. So there you go. Yeah anyhow, so

he made a half million dollar investment in Facebook in August 24 sorry 2004 anyhow, he's a very rich guy and he basically, so I think he's the issue with Gogger started many years ago when they wrote an article about him, essentially outing him. He's gay. Correct. And they wrote this article, which is a really stupid article, which is like, hey, Peter Teil is really gay. And I think, look, I mean, Gogger's point and I'm not going to defend that story or many

of the stories that teal and other people take issue with because I take issue with them. Their point was sort of like they were sort of poking fun at the idea that there's some sensitivity in Silicon Valley with that this other investors may not be 100% comfortable with gay investors, you know, which is, I don't know if it's true or not, but that was sort of some of the some of the notions they were putting forward in this article. I think the point is in order to have a productive sort of sensible conversation about what's going on, you almost have to abstract gocker out of it because gocker is such a polarizing business. You can abstract gocker, but it's

important to say that the beginnings of Peter Teel's anger stemmed from it. What appears to be an article that was like outing him in public, just saying, hey, this guy's gay publicly. And maybe he wasn't ready to, or didn't want to talk about it, and felt like it was innovation or privacy. And there were more articles about him and people that he considers friends.

And look, Gawker has done some really ugly reporting. There's no question. By the way, I'm so tired of talking about Gawker has done some really ugly reporting. Right, there's no question. By the way, I'm so tired of talking about Gawker. I mean, they've been in the news so much lately, but it's really important in our industry. At a moment where we're talking about the future of the media industry, and you look at these forces that are at work, and like here's the deal.

So Peter Teales, well, totally within his legal rights to give money to people who are suing gocker to support them monetarily. Correct. It's called litigation finance, and it's actually a lot more common than most people realize. And it happens, by the way, it happens in lots of positive ways as well. Correct. There are a lot of the ACLU, for instance, funds, helps to fund lawsuits that people bring. There are a lot of situations where this is like, yeah, you want people doing this.

And I certainly, I'm not arguing that this shouldn't be legal, right? Right. But what I, what I would argue, what is scary and, and, and you can, by the way, you can feel this already is this idea that, um, if Peter Teal doesn't like what you write about him, this is what he's saying. It's very clear. If Peter Teal doesn't like what you write about him, this is what he's saying. It's very clear. If Peter Teal doesn't like what you write about him, he will find any avenue possible to ruin your business. And Peter Teal has a lot more money than most media businesses. Okay. He's worth like 2.2 billion or 2.8 billion. He'll, by the way, side note, Peter Teal's also backing Donald Trump, okay?

So just really quickly, like, just, let's stop here for a second. Let's put aside Peter Teal's grievances with Gokker and the legal right that he has to sue through other people, gocker. I think if you're endorsing Donald Trump, there's something wrong with you. I do, I think that you're broken in some way. And I'm not gonna poll any punches. I will say that I think people who are like, Donald Trump would be a good president.

There's something that either they don't see, which most I think rational people see, or there's something they don't understand, which means there's something wrong with them. I think Donald Trump is a really dangerous guy. I think he's a shitty guy for starters, but I think in the idea of him being president, he's a dangerous guy.

And so I don't know why what Peter Teal's reasoning is for backing Donald Trump, but that makes me very scared of what kind of person Peter Teal is, right? It alarms me. Because Donald Trump's not a good guy. He's like a horrible racist. I mean, literally, there's just an article, great article, which everybody should read about the speech he gave in San Diego, where he spent an hour of his, sorry, part of his hour

of his speech to an large audience. He spent 12 minutes talking about a judge in a case, a personal case against Donald Trump's school, his bullshit school or whatever, Trump, Trump Institute or whatever it's called. He spent 12 minutes talking about this guy and he was like, he was like, we think he's a Mexican, that's fine, it's no big deal, but we think he's a Mexican. Oh yes, and he was, the person was born Indiana, born Indiana, born and raised in Indiana and went to school. Oh, yes. And the person was born Indiana, born in Indiana, born in raising Indiana and went to school

in Indiana, whatever. I mean, but just this is like dangerous talk, right? So I think Donald Trump's a dangerous shitty person. And I think the people who endorsed Donald Trump might be, I'm not entirely sure, but it might be dangerous shitty people as well. So here's the only thing I'll add to that because I think that was a pretty complete statement there. That was just a detour just to talk a little bit about where Peter Teals coming from.

There was one of the professors at the Naval War College. His guy named his name is Tom Nichols. He's on Twitter at Radio Free Tom. He's a professor at the Naval War College. So it's not a huge logical leap to assume that he is probably right of center. But he did a pretty short tweet storm this past week where he basically reminded people in cleared

like step-by-step terms that whoever is elected president has control of thousands of nuclear weapons. Weapons that could completely obliterate most of the planet in about 30 minutes. Right, and by the way, Completely obliterate most of the planet in about 30 minutes. Right. And by the way, we, people don't remember that because it's been so long, even in the bush era, W.

You know, George Bush sucked in many ways, but I never was like, oh, he might launch a nuclear attack on somebody for no reason. I mean, you get the impression that the very least he would be reigned in by the people around him. So, Donald Trump doesn't even have people around him. Right. And so, obviously, this professor, Tom Nichols was saying, you know, I'm not comfortable with Donald Trump as president, but the point is that something we should all remember before we go vote, we're not just voting for the person who's gonna be appointing Supreme Court justices or the person who is ultimately held responsible for the economy, even though that's gonna be asked.

And we're not just voting for the person who tries to decide or influence whether taxes go up or down. We are voting for someone who can literally launch a nuclear strike. He could destroy the world. I mean, I don't think he will, but I think it's like,

he's shitty enough that I would be concerned about it. But, hold on, this is just, that's just the first thing I wanted to mention about Peter Teal's character. Right, let's get back to the goal. Well, I want to know, I want to give back to some other, I want to say some other things about Peter Teal.

Peter Teal has voiced publicly that he feels that women's suffrage is should not have occurred in that women shouldn't have the right to vote, and that it upset the balance of democracy, of a democratic society. So Peter Tiel doesn't think women should have the right to vote. Peter Tiel is creating, is investing in C-steading,

which is a plan to build floating, man-made islands that are free from the laws of any country. Right, international waters. Yeah, so they can do whatever it is they want to do, but I assume something horrible. We've seen the island of Dr. Marrow, so you can just go ahead and imagine. Look, what I've been thinking about this week is just that there are there's basically no situation in which revenge is a healthy impulse. And you just have to think about the the level of revenge. Teal has decided he wants to, you know, exact upon Gawker, you know, what is this

eight years in the making or something like that. And so regardless of what you think upon Gawker. You know, what is this, eight years in the making or something like that? And so regardless of what you think of Gawker, it's a little, I think it's a little scary. So the point is that this guy, you probably don't agree with most. If you're listening to me and you like, you like listening to me ever, which may be not, it will be the case for most people listening,

but you probably don't, you probably would not like Peter Teal you probably would not think he's a good guy with good ideas, but the important thing is that Here's here's what I get to like here. Here's the deal. I understand it's legal. I understand he's mad But I know in my gut and I'm not just saying this like listen Gawker is literally the hardest fucking business to defend in the world like they make British tabloids look classy, okay? Like, they make the worst of the worst look pretty good. They've done some really heinous stuff. Like, they wrote this story about this condy-nass CFO.

They basically outed him and wrote the story about how he is having an affair. And, which is really ugly stuff. And this is the thing that really kind of like was the, I feel like it was a little bit of a nail in the coffin for gochers like credibility to a lot of people. But the point is like did the hardest thing in the world to defend?

And so understand that when I defend them, I'm coming at it from the perspective of a guy who's like fuck these dudes, they're doing horrible shit. Well, so the thing that the problem with teal, sorry, and then I'll let you jump in. There's, I don't have any, there's no league, I can, we can all say, look, it's his first amendment and he's, you know, freedom of speech and all this stuff. And that goes both ways, but there's something wrong.

I know it in my gut that there's something wrong that a person can do this. It's like giving, like, do I think that they have committed a crime that should be punishable by death? No, I don't. Is this some, do they commit the equivalent of journalistic murder? You know, did they slander somebody? Do they write lies that were completely unfounded in an attempt to destroy a person's life? No, they didn't, they didn't do that. I mean, most of the things, and the mass majority

of the things they've done have been legal. And by the way, I think that when this, if this halcogin case ever gets to the Supreme Court, which it is increasingly likely that it will, given the stakes in this. And just so you know, and there's another side of this I want to talk about a little bit, but I don't think this stands at the Supreme Court level. I don't think Halcogin's ruling stands, okay? Well, I think most people, I think you get that case out of Florida and there's gonna be a very different ruling.

You get in front of a Supreme Court and they're gonna look at it very differently. I think most people at the very least expect the judgment to be significantly reduced. Oh yeah, but I think that the precedent that it sets is very difficult for the Supreme Court to look at. Right, well look, it's interesting to use that word precedent,

because that's for me, and I'm not sort of saying, I'm not taking a side on this, but the interesting thing is that even if you believe that like teals, motives really are like just revenge, like there's no conspiracy, because remember this is also a guy who's made significant contributions to the committee to protect journalists, right? So he's saying I'm just going after Gawker, but the scary thing is what he's done is he's revealed a

playbook that anyone of sufficient means of course. If they haven't already thought of the idea. So every one of them. It's a scary precedent. But every the every that everyone who feels like, you know, you listen to these guys like Chris Saka, you know, who's as far as I can tell, he means outspoken, but he seems like a fairly reasonable guy. And he's tweeting about he's like, yeah, God burn and hell, gocker. And it's like, I just don't think they understand the scope as it as often is the case in Silicon Valley. Convalley, what is invested in and what is done from a technical or business standpoint is not seen through the eyes of an ethical standpoint, right? It's not looked at as an ethical question ever. It's looked at as a business or an investment or a technology question. And I think there's a really similar, I think there's something that's really similar

that's going on here where it's like step back for a minute and look at the long term impact and the message that this sends. And you're telling me that the next time there's a story that somebody has about Peter Teal that may be in the public interest for people to know and may need to be written because Peter Teal is a powerful man with a lot of money who can do a lot of things, both good and bad for the world. The next time that writer goes to write that story and takes it to their editor

and their editor has to make a decision. You're gonna fucking tell me that they're not thinking about their business being sued out of existence by an angry, sad, little billionaire who has to have his way who doesn't like to be talked about badly in the press. Because that's the reality of the situation. You know, if it's not teal, it could be anyone else, right?

It could be Chris Sacker. It could be a thousand other or, you know, 10,000 other very rich people. And by the way, like, again, it's not about the legality of it. It's about the precedence. Also about like what Peter Teal hopes to accomplish. It's like destroying Gokker couldn't possibly be his sole goal. That couldn't be it. He wants the type of journalism that Gokker does to not exist. By the way, other founders and other investors have tweeted about this or talked about it publicly.

They say, yeah, these guys didn't play by the rules. They didn't do journalism the way we think they should do it. And it's like, well, it's not your decision how they do journalism, right? Well, did you read what Ben Thompson over at Stratekery wrote about the whole teal situation? Uh, I think I did. It was a piece that he published what like four days ago. Thursday.

It's called Peter Teele, comic book hero. It's really, it's, it comic book hero. It's really, it's very smart. It's very measured. But he in a follow up sort of post on Twitter, you know, he said, let me find this for you. The concern I have is the sense I get in the tech industry that the press is a bully to be fought against. Wake up, tech is dominant.

The press is completely subservient. Look at Teals slash Facebook versus Galker with a business lens. If tech doesn't wake up to its own power, it runs the risk of doing stupid things that lead to regulation. And then he goes on because he obviously is against most regulation and tech. But the point is, I would also look at it from another point of view, which is right now, the dynamics around Silicon Valley look a lot like they have around Wall Street in the past. And I think that Silicon Valley needs to be very careful

that they don't end up on the wrong side, sort of on the wrong side of the American psyche. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, this is ugly. This is ugly stuff. And I mean, gocker's ugly. But here's a Vinod Kostla responding to Keras Wischer about this case.

Keras says, this is a tweet. In 2007, Peter Tehl told me media was dead. Now he's trying to kill one media company. And here's what Kostla says. This is of Kostla ventures. Clickbait journalists need to be taught lessons, far less ethics and more click chasing and press today. I'm for teal. Right? Teaching people lessons in this way is insane. I mean, that's to say that like, that's like saying like we need to smash the

windows of the stores to, you know, make sure they, you know, they get in line, right? Let's like kneecaps and people to make sure they get in line with what we want, how we want to be covered. By the way, so I'll say this, Pierre Omadar, who is the founder of First Look Media. I was just going to bring him up. I just want to say, Pierre Omadar, who is also a former PayPal. I don't know. I guess he was an investor.

I'm not sure how this works, actually, because he didn't work with Tiel. He says he's never met him, actually, which is interesting. Anyhow, Pierre Omedar, who has more money than Peter Tiel, by orders of magnitude. Well, remember Omedar founded E-bay, and then E-bay bought Tiel. Oh, sorry. That's what happened, right? That's right. That's totally forgot he found at E-bay. These things in model of the companies, it's almost like they came out of, like, they've been there forever, like PayPal and eBay. I just like so. eBay is my oldest active internet account. I've had an eBay account for like 16 years.

I mean, they're so naturally part of the internet. Now, you kind of don't even, you're like, oh yeah, right. eBay started at some point. Yeah. Like eBay didn't exist and then it did. Yeah. But anyhow, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um,

Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, I see two, there's two really dark things that happen as it fall out to this, right?

And again, I wanna stress, anybody who's like, oh, gocker sucks, they deserve to die, like I get it. But I don't think, I think that they've done some really shitty stuff. I don't think they deserve to die. And I also think they've done some really important stuff. And you can say what you want,

but the reality is like this is the presses, it can be ugly, it can be dirty, it can not always look that nice, but it is often the things that are most controversial and most hard to stomach, not always, but often those are the things that change the conversation and change people's minds. And they're really important. And Goggharr has done some really important journalism. Say what you will. They just broke a huge story about Facebook. Michael Nunez, I had on the podcast a couple weeks ago and a Katie Drummond, who's our old friend, who's now the editor in chief of Gizmo,

who I've been working on this story. They just broke all of this news about the trending news thing in Facebook and a huge important story. Very much in the same vein as this teal story. So it's like, yeah, you know what, you can talk shit all you want about Gokka, but the reality is they've done, A huge, important story, very much in the same vein as this teal story. So it's like, yeah, you know what, you can talk shit all you want about Gokker, but the reality is they've done, I think they've done more good than bad, but also the things that we

don't, there's no, at this point, the reality is the Hulk Hogan verdict is the first time that a meaningful verdict has been brought and won against them in terms of the journalism they've done. I don't know that that verdict is going to hold up in a real test and a real court. I'll be surprised if it does. I think they had a lot working against them in this case. There was evidence that wasn't in the Florida case. I think they had a jury that was very unsympathetic and in almost every way and didn't really understand the complexity.

I mean, some of the questions the jury in this case were asking suggested that they didn't understand the complexity and the intricacies of the of what journalism is, right? They were asking if one of the female out of their slept with Nick Denton, you know, as a question as if it had any relevance to the case itself, right? You know, as a question, as if it had any relevance to the case itself. Right. You know, at any rate, here's the deal though. I think there's two really bad outcomes from this that happen concurrently. And I think everybody should consider it. The first is that it has this chilling effect.

And that, forget about the phrase chilling effect, is that the first is that it makes people think twice when they're doing real journalism. It makes them worried and scared and makes them less likely to do important journalistic work. The second is that I think this creates this idea that Ben Thompson raises about bullying, or that the press has to be fought. To me, my gut reaction is like if Peter Till thinks

that silencing Gok or anybody he doesn't like, who writes something about him that he doesn't like is the way to proceed, then I think we should, everybody should make it a big part of their job to watch what Peter Till does, to cover what Peter Teal does, to talk about and expose as much about Peter Teal as is reasonable. But I think he becomes a bigger target in terms of storytelling. I think he becomes, I think he should be more scrutinized, because if he's holding himself to the standard and saying, this is where he draws the line.

I think we need to be really clear on who's drawing the line. And so I worry that it becomes what happens is, and I'm not saying that people should do this, but I'm saying that what happens is you end up in this real battle between the billionaire class and journalists. And I think it can get very ugly for everybody. Well, we'll just have to see, you know, what happens going forward.

I mean, Teal can fuck with Gawker, but he can't fuck with the New York Times and the LA Times and the New Yorker and all of the people who are going to defend not Gawker themselves, but the idea that Gawker should deserves to exist. You may not like River Murdoch and many of his publications, but I would fight to the death to say that he deserves to have those things. And he's written some heinous shit. And by the way, River Murdoch and his people who've worked

for him have actually been convicted of like, literally hacking into people's email. You know, you was talking about like crimes against the people they cover. I mean, Glockert didn't hack anybody's email. You know, you were talking about like crimes against the people they cover. I mean, Glockert didn't hack anybody's email. They're not smearing people with lies. I mean, there's stories as much as it sucks to admit, like there is, you can probably argue

there's some news value to the fucking hall-cogon story. I mean, I wouldn't argue it. I wouldn't want to be in that position because I would never do that story. Right. And yeah, it's a dark story. I mean, Glockert would certainly say that there's news value and that's up for interpretation.

But I think it's up for interpretation, but it's not so cut and dry. It's not so cut and dry that you can get. Well, what very few things are, but if you abstract Galker out of the equation, I think the point is, it's, it sets a scary precedent and it's sort of, what remains to be seen or whether is whether or not this opens up some kind of Pandora's box, right?

Or if a line has been crossed, that can never be uncrossed, so to speak. And it's a some extent, it's completely up to Peter Teal. So the scary thing is that only time will tell just how pervasive this will be. Right. I mean, anyhow, it's very dark and it's very depressing and it puts everybody in the uncomfortable position of having to defend Gokker, which nobody really wants to do. Yeah, that's the thing. Exactly. I know a lot of people Gokker, I like a lot of people there and I really do think they do

some great shit. You know, if you look at Dead Spin and Jezebel and Gizmodo and there's plenty, you know Gokker, there's Gokker itself, and then there's all of these other sites, LifeHacker. I mean, I-09, just like really good Kotaku. I mean, these are like, you know, say what you will, but they've all done, at turns, done really, really good stuff. Yes, there's great stuff. They aren't where they're at by accident.

They built that over a long period of time, where they were making stuff that no one else in the internet was making for a very long time. You know, as a person who competed hard with one of their properties, I can tell you like, they earned their position by doing real journalism. Like, you know, you may not like it, but they got there by doing it, and not just real journalism but new journalism. And I think it's easy to forget that they actually

helped to pave the way for a lot of, I mean, let's put this way. You know, without Gokker, there's no end gadget. I'd end gadget. I never do this. The verge never happens. If Oxygen media probably doesn't exist. But honestly, if you look at all the threads

of all of the Gokker people have gone off and created amazing things, they have foundationally built a lot of. Wire cutter. I'm wire cutter in the all and there's on and on and on, there's so many things. High and low, like big and small. Anyhow, the point is, you know,

we don't need to have a funeral for Gokker yet, but I'm just saying that I think the SteelSh shit is whack and I think he's in the wrong. And I think that you say what you will about it, it just feels wrong to me. It feels wrong. I know it may be legal, but what he's doing seems wrong. And I hope that it stopped. I really do. I hope that he comes to a senses.

What I'd really like is that as that Teal says, you know what? I've brought you to your knees. You get the you get the picture. Let's move on. That doesn't seem likely. That doesn't seem likely, but, but, you know, it's like there's no positive end. It's not a victory if he wins.

It just isn't. And I'm sure at this point, he must understand it. Well, he's, look, the guy didn't get where he is by being anything less than insanely intelligent, right? So, no, maybe, I don't know. I'm sure he's very intelligent. I don't really know. I'm telling you, it's that's a scary question. I've been a lot of very rich people who aren't that smart though. I'll say that. True. But I don't know, he has made, he's created things. Sure.

But point is, it's that's a scary precedent, and it's gonna be, it's not gonna be a boring summer. No, but you know, hopefully it will be not too bloody of a summer. Here's all I want, I don't want Donald Trump to be the president

of the United States of America, mostly because it'll be embarrassing, because I won't be Trump to be the president of the United States of America. Mostly because it'll be embarrassing. Because I won't be able to talk to any of my friends from other countries. Because they'll laugh at me and spit on me. All right, we have to find someone, we have to end on a positive... We gotta go up, we gotta go up from here, this is very dark. I was gonna, we were gonna have an apple, but I don't think we should do that. Because that'll be, that'll be also dark. We've got my blackberry, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have I, have blackberry have I tied my blackberry with anybody I've touched a little bit with Paul Miller

What you even listen to that episode I haven't listened to that one speaking of Trump Speaking of Trump you should listen that episode Paul's a Trump man Which is you know, it's America. It's the great experiment everyone's entitled to their own experiment. It's an experiment It's an experiment. All right. I do love this country though. It is a great country It's the country that brought us Hamilton, the smash hit musical. Yeah, it brought us a lot of cool stuff. America rules, you know?

That's the thing I don't get. People are like make America great again. It's like, you know, I mean, not people, Donald Trump. I just feel like I don't think it's not great. I think we are empirically better off than we have ever been. Yeah, except for Gawker. They're having a stressful time. They're having a little bit of a bad moment.

I don't know what else is there to talk about. I did want to talk a little bit about the... I thought... I talked to this about this a bit with Paul, but I think it's a really interesting place to explore, which is this idea about the future of interfaces and apples sort of lack of leadership there. And I have to say, I'm curious about WWE DC and if they're going to do something. Now, do you say lack of leadership because they have, because Syria is obviously not the most

powerful, the best voices. I would back up from Siri for a second, and I would say what really has become clear is the lack of intuitiveness. Now, not any mobile device is perfect, but the lack of intuitiveness in Apple's interfaces at every level is pretty striking. Now do you feel like it earlier versions of iOS were better? Is that what you're saying?

I think that we had less, I think that our needs were less sophisticated in earlier versions. I think that as services, as social networks and connected services have expanded. As we have lived more and more of our lives online and we've had more and more of our lives brought into the mobile devices in our pockets, I don't think that Apple has done a great job of keeping pace with the experience of the modern consumer.

And I would say like a great example is, I mean Apple music is a place to start, right? As an example of a place where it doesn't seem to keep pace with the use cases and the natural behavior of a modern consumer, but all across their mobile operatives. But that's the same, specifically, that you're talking, these are critiques of the interface. Well, it's interface, it's not just interface,

it's services, it's interface, but think about this. Interface is increasingly influenced by by predictiveness. Right? There are like like my Android phone is much better making assumptions about what I want to do. How so? How so? Okay. Here's a good example. Yeah, hit me. When you share something in Chrome for Android, you get a share sheet, right? First time you share, you get a share sheet, right? The next time you share it gives you the thing

that it gives you an automatic, it shows you the icon of the last thing you shared with. So you can skip a step if you want. So over time, yeah, what you find is like, well, I'm usually sharing to, I'm usually pocketing a story. So pockets always there. So I can skip a step, right?

It's a really interesting, very minor piece of the interface that learns something about. Whereas on iOS, you have to set the order of the sheet to the other way. You have to set the order of the share sheet. By the way, there are different share sheets. For some reason, there are apps where the share sheet is one way and apps where the share sheet is another way, which I don't fully understand. Have you ever seen

this? I have noticed that. Where you have a share sheet in one app and it's all set up and then you go open a share sheet in another app and it's not set up. But just like, yeah, I mean, even the understanding of what applications do, okay, a really good example is sending an image to hangouts or g chat as people had to call it from iOS. So I'm in my photos app in iOS. I want to put, I want to give Send Laura a picture of Zelda, right? We talk in G chat all day long, right? So now first off, so first off, let's just say that Apple's user interface

doesn't, it never assumes that I want to use anything other than their first party. Like it really doesn't want me to use, it still doesn't really want you to use any third party stuff, right? Whereas Google basically doesn't care. I mean, Google basically does not give a shit. But so let's just say for a second, that's one little thing that always comes up over and over again, which is like, it wants to open Safari, it wants to open Apple Maps, it wants to open Apple Mail, it does not want to open third party interfaces or third party applications. So, hang out. So, I'm sharing a picture, I'm in photos, I go, I click on the button from the share sheet. The share sheet gives me essentially a post to dialogue that pops up, okay?

It doesn't give me a native place to put an image in. It doesn't give me the chat with Laura. It gives me this thing that essentially looks like a Twitter share, right? Because Apple at that level sort of perceives all of these at a very binary in a very binary way. Right? And so when it comes to saving files or opening files, it's all the same thing. You're like trying to open a file is still, like you still have to do some kind of math in your head.

You gotta go like, all right, how do I do this? Right, let me ask you something though. Because we're talking about thing, you know, some pretty, I don't wanna say complicated, but they're not day one user interactions. Let's see. Are the really they're not? one user interactions. Let's see. Are the really they're not? Well, let's, let me, let me.

Really, you're telling me that a billion people use Facebook and it's not a typical interaction, ability, you know, how many people have 500 million use Instagram? How many people use WhatsApp, a billion people, and I'm thinking of getting, finally getting Instagram, by the way. Anyway, but let me, let me ask you this. If you were to hand a stock out of the box iPhone,

and a stock out of the box Android device, clean Google Android, not crappy Android. I'm mostly out to be honest with you, it's all basically the same. Now there's very few differences between stock Android and like whatever Samsung does. See, it does get better. So let's say you hand both devices to someone

who is a total novice, no predisposition to either one. Do you think that Android to that user is more intuitive? Because I'll tell you what I think. And then you say, my point of view is that at the very beginning of that relationship, iOS is much more intuitive. Yeah, but that's fine. We're post on, we're on. Right, and I think post on, I don't care about the,

I don't care about the first use. Right, but I think it's important to think. I care about the hundredth use. Well, see, it's an important distinction if you frame, if you, it's actually frames my argument about Apple really well, which is like, they're very concerned with that first user, the simplicity of this first user experience, which is fine. If you're all in there, if you're just doing all of the stuff that they want you to do, and you don't have any further, you really don't have any further needs. But this speaks,

but this goes into like the, yeah, you know, it's more complicated to opt somebody into Google now, but it's also more useful when it's like, Hey, you're on your way to work and there's gonna be traffic on the route you normally take and it tells you that before you ask Right, yeah, so I have to opt into Google now and I have to understand what it is and it's not that simple It's like kind of more complicated, but you know, we're used to using computers, which are very complicated Simplicity is not to me simplicity is not the solution to a problem. Simplicity is how you solve a problem, but it's not the solution to a problem. Wait, what's the difference between those two things? Because I agree with you, but I feel like we need to tease this out a little bit.

Simplicity can be the way that you solve a problem, but it isn't the solution. Simplicity is like process. Like what I'm saying is that's right. So like you can say, oh, we made, we simplified it. And that's all the problem because we went from six steps to three or whatever. But the solution isn't like make it more simple, right? It's not always, that's not always the answer.

And that's not always the way that fixes your issue. And so like simplicity can be a tool, but it shouldn't be the end game for everything. And I think that, but it's beyond that. So this gets into that connected services thing. And this is really nerdy. That's good, because this is where I was sensing that this would go. Well, the right, because, okay, yeah, I'm saying that was a foundational, like, how do people use these things as we've grown into a more complex relationship with our technology and our applications, right?

So then it all starts to become about like, well, I'm over here, I'm doing this, I'm over here, I'm doing that, I get ubers, I get, you know, I'm taking trains, I have all these different things that are happening in your life, they're all sort of digitally connected. I'm talking to friends on Facebook, I'm talking to friends on WhatsApp,

I'm doing everything, everything is a service. I'm talking to friends on Facebook, I'm talking to friends on WhatsApp, I'm doing, I'm doing, I'm doing, I'm doing, I'm doing searches, I'm saving files. Now where are my files? Okay, they're no longer on my computer. They're in the cloud because they're, and they're part of a service that I'm using Dropbox, I'm using iCloud, I'm using Google Drive, or whatever. In my case, I'm using all three

because nobody's created a really, truly integrated virtual file system that works across devices. Google Drive probably gets closest. It seems like the most natural of those. I do want to say, though, I've been using an iPad Pro for work for over a month now. Anything Bloomberg is a little bit of a special case because so much of the work happens in the terminal. So you're using an iPad Pro? Yeah. Okay. With a keyboard cover. Yeah. Yeah. And it's been for me at work. It's been great.

I've been thinking about getting into smaller iPad Pro with the keyboard cover. I actually was typing on the other day and I was like, this is pretty good. I mean, like, look, honestly, for me, the only time I really... What would you do with that big... You're the big one because that's because you just don't use nothing on the display well I mean I love being able to have Trello on one side and Twitter and the other the terminal on one side and you can do three apps maybe you'd be in business that's crazy gigantic it's pretty big but it's good I do want to try the smaller one but look I'm you know I'm planning our honeymoon and I've got a big spreadsheet going.

I've been working on it mostly on that. I mean, really, let me ask you a question. Yeah. I should know the answer to this, but you're in the browser. Yeah. You have the browser open and you have Twitter open on the side. Yeah.

Can you drag an image from the out of the browser and drop it in the Twitter and tweet the image? No. See, this is what I'm fucking talking about. Okay. Yeah, but Android can't do that either. Uh, I think it can. I don't think so.

Actually, I'm trying to think of what users, I'm trying to think of if I have a device that uses split screen that I could do it. And I don't use it, I don't use an Android tab, like this is basically. But that's a great use case that every time I, by the way, why does an Apple make that possible? Well, maybe they will, maybe they're listening right now.

Dub Dub, they see is right in the corner. I hope they are, but this is what I'm talking about, is, okay, you gave people this ability, but like, naturally, the first thing I think is like, I'm looking at like, you know, I'm looking at something and I see like a great gif, and then I want to tweet it. What I have to do, I have to copy, I have to copy the image, and then paste it.

That workflow sucks on every mobile device. Right. And for, you know, heavy Twitter users like you and me, that's a real problem. Yeah, for heavy users. But I'm loving the iPad Pro. Honestly, the only thing is I just wish I had better handwriting and I could actually draw because then it'd be even more interesting. Do you have the pen you get the whole setup?

I do have the pen because they just ordered complete sets for work. And I have no use for the pen, so I'm just keeping it in the box and not messing with it. But I've really enjoyed using it for work to be honest and the only thing I really... I mean I'll be honest with you though can I just be straight up with you versus I can? Yeah be straight. If I'm in, I want to compare these two things. If I'm in my browser on Android and I long press on an image. I can share the image directly from the image and it shares it right into Twitter.

Like it's like one click basically. Right, whereas on the iOS, you only get save image and copy, right? I'm gonna see, I actually wanna see. I guess you can copy and then it's another step. Let's just as it, and this is not a good use of anybody's time, but I'm gonna do it just for the hell of it.

Let's see here, okay. Same image. I'm gonna do it just for the hell of it. Let's see here. Okay, same image. I'm on Giffy by the way, great website. Everybody should check it out. You can search, you can save the image. Oh, my image, a new tab. Okay, that's in. Let me try it in Safari.

This is good. I think this is a great experience for people who are listening to this podcast right now. Well, that's what we provide. I hope they're enjoying this as much as I'm enjoying it. All right, here we go. I'm gonna check it out from Safari. Oh, oh boy, 3D Touch.

You save the image and copy that, I have even fewer options. 3D Touch lets me see the image. That's stupid. That would have a terrible, terrible idea for an interface. Now one thing I haven't tried yet. Plus I'm used 3D touch. I don't have the, I only have a iPhone 6 Plus.

Oh, that's disgusting. So one thing I haven't really done much of yet is photo editing on the iPad Pro. Because that's like honestly I have an iMac at home and that's the main thing I use it for because it's not in a, it's, so it's away from the rest of the apartment. So I don't use it that much these days unless I'm doing a photo project. So that's one thing that maybe I could use the pencil for is photo editing on the iPad Pro. I got to get dongles and it's a whole to do.

I don't know. I'm getting too old to do. It being very, very upset just hearing about it. Dungles. Can I tell you? Dungles. Anyhow. So we should wrap. But what I'm saying is, I guess what I'm saying is,

Mark Armeat wrote this thing and I don't really usually agree with most of the things he writes. But this one I thought was smart. It was just like, what if Apple's wrong about this and they haven't really been spending time and energy getting this right? But I really do think the issue is all this stuff has to work together and has to work together fluidly. And what bots are trying to solve and what AI is trying to solve and what at least it should be trying to solve is not like some crazy new level of interaction that we've never experienced before but a more fluid interaction and a more predictive interaction with the machines

that we have to use every day. If anything, now is the time for companies to figure it out because I think this is something you'll agree with, which is that we're in between hardware moments, right? We've talked about this before. And so I think we're in the middle of a period right now where there's going to be a lot of time for all companies to focus on software and services in as far as smartphones and mobile devices are concerned, because I don't think we're going to see any huge leaps forward. We're not going to see any paradigm shifts in mobile hardware for quite a while.

And I think it's all software and services now and every company is gonna have to focus on that and figure out how to do it really, really, really well. Because that's the differentiator. Right, right, I agree. And Starship Troopers is the bomb. When can I watch this Superman Batman movie on VS Dreaming? Batman versus Superman?

Yeah. Oh, I don't know. I haven't seen it either. That's the most important thing for me to answer. I'm not gonna see this new X-Men movie because it looks absurd. And just as I'm so over it, I watched Deadpool. It was fine. I rented it.

I thought it was funny. It was worth $6. It's, I actually bought it because I was like, you know, and I just want to watch something. I haven't seen something new. I haven't seen, I don't care. These are all these superhero moves, you're super daikulous. It's almost like we've had too much of a good thing. Yeah, it's, I feel like it's just a little too much content

on the superhero front at this point. I mean, when I was growing up, my friends and I would talk about, oh my God, if they made a live-action X-Men movie, that would be a dream come true, and it could be amazing, and now it's all happened, but I think we may be overdosing a little bit.

I mean, trip on this shit just for a second, okay? What was the last Batman movie made? What was the Dark Knight Rises made? Standby, I'm Googling, the dark. I think it's like, don't wanna say 2011. Survey says 2012. Okay, 2012, okay? Four years later, now it's a brand new Batman,

new franchise, whole new, I mean, whole new deal. Like, what's four years later now to brand new Batman New franchise whole new I mean whole new deal like what's wrong with us? Like like this is so crazy to know much we just did we just did like a decade of Batman movies and they're like they can't keep that Batman universe going they can't it's unsustainable so they're like let's make a new this is even with a spider-man We're getting our third spider-man in like less than 15 years or something. So it was Toby McGuire, right? Yeah. And then Andrew Garfield did two of them. Social network guy.

Yeah. And now, and now, and now, whoever the new kid is and from the, from the Captain America movie. Look, I tell you what, why don't we end this podcast? I know I was not old, but what I'm really I'm am trying to say is like revenge is a dish best serve call. Now what I'm really trying to say is, is some revenge is a dish best served through litigation finance. Yeah, seriously.

What I'm trying to say is less is more sometimes. Less is, less actually is more, you know? Yeah, well look, I'll tell you what. Or more is more and just give me a fucking TV series that's decent about any of these major characters I want to see him. I want to see a Superman Now I'm not really interested in seer band actually all these people bore the shit out of me at this point Well, you know, I you know you're not gonna see a movie of what? Saga have you read saga no No. Brian K. Vaughan. Hmm. Fucking amazing series. It's interesting that you mentioned how they're all boring you,

because I just insta-papered a story, a couple, within the past couple of days, basically talking about how all the characters in the Marvel Universe or the X-Men Avengers, all these people, with every movie, all the characters become more alike instead of more distinct. There's nothing, there, with every movie, all the characters become more alike, instead of more distinct. There's nothing, there's just nothing left for these guys to do. But hold on, we were supposed to end the podcast with something uplifting, and I have something.

Oh, you got something. You know, I like to end the podcast with recommendations. Yes. You know, I'm planning our honeymoon. I keep hearing about this. We're going to Japan. And so I love Japan. And so do I.

So I have reread very recently, the William Gibson essay from 15 years ago called my own private Tokyo that ran and wired. Oh, I haven't I don't think I've read that. It's amazing. Google it. It's on the internet. Are you gonna get a buzz rickson jacket while you're there? They're a little pricey. I did go. It buzz rickson. That's what it's good for the brand. Yeah. Last time I was in Tokyo, which is a very quick trip though. I did go buzz rickson. That's what it's good. Yeah, last time I was in Tokyo, which was a very quick trip though I did go to the buzz rickson store and it is amazing William Gibson. Yeah, he just wrote a comic book. He did

Called our angel. Yes Which I'm definitely interested in but I haven't read his last two books So I feel like a bad I think bad fan. I need to, I've had the peripheral sitting on a desk. I started to read, maybe that's the only one I have. I started reading it, but I didn't, I couldn't, I didn't have anything. You know what else has been recommended to me recently? And this is a Thomas Houston recommendation, Seven Eaves by Neil Stevenson.

People that are waving about this. I almost bought it. I want to read that. Well, now it was a good time because it just came out in paperback. It's like $11 on it. Can I recommend Saga to you? Yeah, I'm going to. It is the most original and interesting and thoughtful and weird comic book I've read in forever. So what's the, give me the two sentence version I want it's about. I mean, there is no two

sentence version. It's, it takes place in a world that is unlike ours, but very similar to ours. but very similar to ours. And there is a war, very large universal war kind of happening across many planets and amongst many different races and species. And it's a love story. It's a philosophically challenging story. It's an intellectually challenging story. It has a lot to say about war and countries and nations that are constantly at war. You've sold me, I'm gonna check it out.

It's really crazy, it's good. And also there's a lot of sex in it too. Now is it the series, in it. Now is it, is the series, is it finished or is it still writing? I think it's still going. I'm I need to catch up actually. I'm like, I'm in like the 20 issue, 20 ish. There's a couple of collections. You can buy some collections of like the first of the first. I mean, I would just read. Yeah, there's been 36 issues so far. Okay. Oh, so I'm way behind. I should really catch up. I bought some. I'm deadly.

I bought some, I mean, I think reading it in hand is the best way to do it. Yeah, okay, so there's the recommendation. Saga and my own private Tokyo, the essay by William Gibson. All right, I'm gonna look at, I'm gonna look into both of this. Well, I've read Saga, but I'm gonna look into my own private Tokyo.

All right, that's a good way to end it. Michael, oh, this has been great. As always, you're a great man to talk to. You bring out the best and possibly the worst in me as well. Well, that's what makes for a happy and healthy relationship. That's so great. That's wonderful. Well, thank you for coming on again, and you've got to do it.

Again, and you will do it again, of course, because we made that bet and you lost and then we won the big time for life. This is great. Thank you. No, thank you. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Well, that is, thank you. Bye. Bye Well, that is our show for this week, but we'll be back next week with more and as always I wish you and your family the very best Unfortunately your family is now embroiled in a long complicated and disturbing more with an alien race that they can't possibly understand.