TONTS. - ADHD, Marriage & Murder with Sally Hepworth

Episode Date: November 3, 2022

Album Launch Tickets available here:https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/claire-tonti-album-launch-tickets-460602724147Sally Hepworth is the New York Times bestselling author of eight novels, most recently The Younger Wife and her new release The Soulmate. Her novel, The Mother-In-Law (2019), has been optioned for a TV series by Hollywood actress and producer, Amy Poehler. Drawing on the good, the bad and the downright odd of human behaviour, Sally writes incisively about family, relationships and identity. Her domestic thriller novels are laced with quirky humour, sass and a darkly charming tone. Sally's novels are available around the globe in English and have been translated into 20 languages. She has sold more than one million books worldwide. Sally lives in Melbourne, Australia with her husband Christian and her three children.For more from Sally Hepworth you can head to www.sallyhepworthauthor.com or @sallyhepworth on instagramFor more from Claire Tonti you can head to www.clairetonti.com or instagram @clairetontiShow credits:Editing – RAW Collings, Claire TontiMusic – Avocado Junkie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, Claire Twente here. Just before we start the show, I wanted to let you know that I have written an album of music. It's called Matrescence and it's about motherhood and womanhood and love and desire and overcoming trauma and grief and lots of things in between. And I am launching the album on the 12th of February at 3pm at the Wesleyan in Northgate. Tickets are now on sale, so you can find them in the link in the show notes or in my bio. And I've also released the beautiful album artwork that has been created by my wonderful friend Annabelle Warne. Now, you can find that artwork over on my Instagram at Claire Tonti and purchase tickets through Eventbrite. Tickets are $35 and the night will have pub food and drinks at bar prices. There'll be some merch

for sale as well and making t-shirts and some tote bags and hopefully some vinyl will be either available as a pre-order or available on the day depending because there is a little bit of a lag time at the moment with vinyl due to COVID. So anyway, I would so love you to be there. Tickets are limited. So if you'd like to come along and hear some music, I would love you to. And after that date, it will all be available for digital streaming downloads and on all your favorite streaming services. So that's all I wanted to say. On with the show. I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak and write today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation,

and pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been ceded. Hello, this is Tons, and yes, I have a cold. I'm so sorry. But anyway, hopefully you can cope with my husky voice. I will soldier on. This is a podcast hosted by me, Claire Tonti, where I speak to activists, writers, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans about their stories. And this week, I have the wonderful Sally Hepworth, one of my favorite writers of all time and just favorite humans. She's just a joy bubble, as I say to her in this interview. She is also the New York Times bestselling author of eight novels, most recently The Younger Wife and her brand new release that I raced through, not frue, raced through, The Soulmate. Her novel, The Mother-in-Law,

which she wrote in 2019, has been optioned for a TV series by Hollywood actress and producer Amy Paola, no less. My goodness. Drawing on the good, the bad, and the downright odd of human behavior, Sally writes incisively about family, relationships, and identity. Her domestic thriller novels are laced with quirky humor, sass, and a darkly charming tone. Now, they've been sold around the globe in English and have been translated into 20 languages. She has sold more than 1 million books worldwide, and she now lives in Melbourne with her husband, Christian, and her three children. One of the things I love the most about Sally is her Instagram account, other than obviously her brilliant novels, which are

also great. And as I mentioned, The Soulmate is out at the moment, so you can totally go and grab a copy of that. We talk about the content of that book, which is just brilliant today, Marriage and Murder. She wrote it during lockdown. And I think that's really indicative of maybe her mental state, but also all our mental states generally, as in Melbourne, we did live through one of the longest lockdowns in the world. Yeah, it's a great thriller and excellent. And also a really deep look at love and marriage too, which is beautiful. But more than that, back to her Instagram account, Sally shares little snippets of her family life with her husband, Christian, who is autistic and neurodiverse,

as is she. She has ADHD. And it's just a joy to behold how funny and quirky and intelligent they are as a couple. And Sally's approach to life in general is so open and warm and funny and honest. And in this interview, I didn't expect to get really emotional, but I do. I have never been diagnosed with ADHD, but it's been something I've been thinking about for a long time. And you'll hear in this interview, kind of a realization for me as Sally's talking about a lot of the traits that she has dealt with with her diagnosis and just how familiar they all seem to me. So I want you to know that this isn't an episode where I confirm absolutely that I have ADHD, but just that what Sally said really resonated with me,

particularly about neurodivergence and that it's a path that I think I'm going to explore for myself. And I think her advice around self-compassion is just so important and so valuable. And I just, I bloody loved this chat so much. I really found her to be an incredibly warm and wonderful person as I knew she would be. I hope you do too. We have a lot of fun. All right, off we go. Here she is, Sally Hepworth. Okay. Oh, look at your nails. I love that color. Thank you. I just got them done this morning. I mean, I do like a yellow nail and I've had them in the past, but I just got them redone because they were looking a bit sad. Yeah, no, they're gorgeous. I just love your Instagram and your fashion and all the things

that you share all the time. You're just like a big joy bubble. Have you always been like that? I don't know. I love that joy bubble. Well, I've always been fairly expressive of things. I will say that. I'm a fairly happy person, which is funny since I write, you know,

books about murder. Yeah, but they're funny as write, you know, books about murder. But there you have it. There you have it. They're funny as well, though, I think. That's like I'm a very happy person too, but I love watching BBC crime dramas where women get murdered all the time. I don't know. Maybe it's because you're externally happy so you need like a contrast.

I don't know. You know. Yeah. Christian calls them my nasty shows. I sit in the bedroom and he comes in and someone, you know, something really rapey or murdery that I'm watching and he's like, what is wrong with you? And I have to feel, you know, I need something terrible to happen so I can feel.

Yes, that is exactly it. It's the extremes that I love. I don't like any of this like middle of the road, I'm fine business. I'm either like incredibly of this like middle of the road, I'm fine business. I'm either like incredibly ecstatic or like awfully depressed and miserable. You know, I don't want to be middle of the road. All right. So I wanted to ask you about how you became a writer because I just, I love this story. How did you become a writer? Where did it all begin? Well, I mean, it depends how far you want to go back. I did quite famously or infamously in

my family write my first book when I was seven years old. And that book was a book of short stories. And I think I had the idea to write the book. And then that sounded really exciting and glamorous. So then I took to the dining room table and wrote these short stories. And then I took it to my aunt, who was a publisher at the time of school textbooks. So not the kind of, not seven-year-olds books of short stories, but I said, you're going to need to publish this. And I remember she put it in between two, you know, like a manila kind of files and put those three gold, like press stud things with the two prongs to put it all together and she wrote copyright sally caradus which is my main my

maiden name 1987 so that was i don't know maybe written in the stars but it it took me another 20 years before I wrote my next book after Mustard and Ink. And that was when I was living over in Canada and pregnant with my first child and about to go on maternity leave. And I suppose, I mean, I've always been an avid reader, a voracious reader, you know, with several books going at a time. And I don't know if I had kind of properly had the thought I would like to write a novel because I never thought of it as something that you could do. Like it was a, it was so fanciful. It wasn't like becoming a dentist or a

nurse or a teacher or a lawyer where you went to university and then you were employed. It felt a bit different. But I think it was the fact that I was taking a year off work, what I was doing for a job then, and I thought, like a stupid first-time mother, that I was going to have all this free time. I remember thinking I'd write a master's. I said that to my friend. What? I barely could have a shower.

I know. And I say now because sometimes I tell my story and new mothers kind of say, how did you do that? Because I did end up, I wrote a book that year, worst book in the world. But the reason I was able to do it is that I had a robot baby. And my robot baby is now 13 and he is still a man who likes a schedule and he used to nap you know for three hours you know at the same time of day and and he was very reliable with my next two children my daughters no way could I have written a shopping list so that I spent that year writing my first novel, worst book ever. I wrote

another novel the following year while working part-time. And then I wrote a third novel when I was pregnant with my daughter. And that was the book that allowed me to become a full-time writer. Although in a funny twist of fate, that first book that I wrote, worst book in the world. Is that the one about midwives, The Secrets of Midwives? No, that was the first one that was published. So that was book three that was published in English and all around the world, which was amazing. That first book, which was called Love Like the French that I wrote that first year on maternity leave, ended up being published in the German language only in a kind of retroactive deal.

And thank goodness because I don't want anyone to read it. And if anyone's listening and they can speak German, don't buy it. What's it about? What's it about? It's about a woman who, she's a British woman who goes and she's sort of the uptight stiff upper lip kind of classic Brit my husband's British and she goes to spend a summer in the south of France to kind of learn to you know live like a French person and like you know the juxtaposition of the two but

that makes it sound better than it is it's really you know what it was it was an exploration of what it's like to write for me. You know, I just wanted to see if I could create characters and create, you know, scenes and I fell in love with the process through that book. So I have good feelings about it but I don't think first books are meant to be read, do you? No.

No, well, definitely not my, like, poetry. I used to write a lot of poetry and those are very happy to stay right deeply hidden. There's a lot of anguish, so much anguish and metaphors, but, you know, it's fine. I wanted to ask you how you actually did that. So did you, because presumably is that before Google or you could just Google how do you write a book and start?

Because people listening will think, okay, come on, Sally, don't tell me you didn't know anything about it and you just wrote a whole novel. Yeah, no, it was not before Google or it would not have happened. I Googled how to write a novel and that was, I'd made the decision to stay at home. I think I was either just about to have my baby, I think. And I Googled how to write a book and Google was amazing. Google has got all the answers always. And it provided, I imagine, several ways that you could do it. And I chose one. It was called the snowflake method. And

I've never used it since then. And I can't really remember how it works but what was so great about it is that it gave me a way to do something that felt really intangible and it started with something like write your whole book in a sentence like what is you know what's the gist you know what's your kind of high level and then you turn it into a paragraph and then you break it down into scenes and I think that it wasn't particularly about that method it was about there was a way into it for me who didn't know anything about it and yeah but ever since then I have written books different ways every time but there's something about the confidence of having finished one that that gets you through it but yeah google and and again I finished writing that novel and I googled how to get a book published and every step in between how to edit a book you know how to get an agent it's all

on google and and when people slide into my inbox to ask to pick my brain or for tips or you know they say it's so confusing it's so hidden and shrouded in mystery this publishing industry I always say no no it's not just google it it's all there and what's your best sort of tip then for emerging writers or a woman who's on maternity leave with a robot baby who's like right I've got three hours a day I don't want to do the washing I'm gonna I'm gonna start what's your best tips it's it's really just to do the writing and and it may be that if you're like me you need to find a snowflake method or a something that gives you the confidence to go in I'd probably recommend if you do need something, buy a book. There's some fantastic books about how to write a novel. There's one called The

Plot Whisperer by Martha Alderson. There's one called Writing the Breakout Novel. If you need that, some people that would be the worst thing for them. But if you're looking for something to give you a bit of scaffolding as you prepare to write. Get one book or Google one method because you can just get lost in it and then just sit down and write and know that that first book might not get published, probably shouldn't get published, and just do it for you. Get to develop your voice. Get to develop what kind of stories that you love telling and

think about, is this a book that, do I want to become a novelist or is there just this one story that I want to tell? You know, all of these questions that you're going to have to face at some point, I think are good things to think about starting off because it's going to help guide every step you take from there. Do you suffer from inner critic? Yes, yeah, of course. And I think it's both a good thing and a bad thing because being critical of oneself is what allows us to write a book and go through all of the, you know, many, many process, you know, rounds of edits, the many, many drafts. Anyone who does anything worthwhile has to be able to look at what they do critically. So that's where it's good. Where it's bad is when

it stops you from doing something. And I hear that it's just so common with writers that they write their first book and it doesn't get published. And so that's it. You know, they stop writing or they get a book published, but it doesn't sell to their expectations. And, you know, then that's it. And I think what really gets you through is tenacity, you know, just to be able to keep going. And I really think that people kind of attribute success to talent and that people try and click social media or, you know, whatever they can find. And really what it is about is just tenacity and not giving up and in the face of each setback, just to keep on going. And, you know, if you've been bitten by the writing,

you know, bug, as it were, you can't help it because you think I can't do anything else I have to write and that's always helpful to keep you on the road. Can you tell us a story of a big failure that you've had where you've it's all fallen apart I'm assuming maybe it hasn't it's all gone perfectly can you tell us a story about a big failure and how you did push through that with some tenacity? I can indeed I could I could tell you a, but I'll tell you the most entertaining one. This is a great example, actually. I had just released The Mother-in-Law, which was my most successful book up into that point. And it was a really exciting time from the outside looking in.

You know, I'd been over to the States to go on Good Morning America, and that book was optioned by Amy Poehler. So it was all really exciting. And at the same time, I was working on the next book. And you're always a little bit ahead. So at that time, when all the good things were happening with the mother-in-law, I was well into the book for the next year. And that book was about three couples that meet at a swingers party. I know everyone, it's such a good premise, but I really fucked it up. Am I like Swift? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Go for it. And, you know, still, when I say the premise, people go, Oh, yes. You know, Oh, that that sounds good and so when I decided to write it

I really you know put my back into it I was going to say when it did some real hardcore research well I did I went and um I went and found a swingers party to go to because I think that when you've brought out a few books you're really aware that this part of it happens you know when people are asking you about you know the book and it's out and I just pictured all these people saying to me Sally you know how did you research the swingers book and I thought well I have to tell them that I went to a party you know I'm not just a keyboard researcher. You're really committed to this book venture. I sure am.

So this is part of the tenacity thing, right? And so I found a party, a swingers party. It was quite a kind of upmarket. It was run by a woman who actually went to school with Kate Middleton. And she started running these exclusive parties at country homes around England that were very eyes wide shut and they became so popular that they then moved around the world and there was one coming to Sydney I live in Melbourne but I thought that's actually quite good because then I'm not going to bump into you know kid's kindergarten teacher or anything. And so I booked us in, Christian as well.

I remember we were on the couch watching The Voice like on a Wednesday night in our tracksuits, you know, the least glamorous people alive. And I said, I have to book us into this party. And Christian is an accountant in every sense of the word. He's now our full-time parent at home. But I remember him just looking over at me and I said, it's for research. You have to come. Be fine. And he said, okay, all right, great. So I booked us in. We had to submit photos. You had to be be under 40 which we would not make it now but we just sort of sneaked in and it was quite expensive so we booked into the party fast forward you know a few

weeks and we showed up now the hosts knew that we were not going to take part it was a really big party there was a hundred people there she said this is a good one to go to because it won't be obvious if you're not getting involved there's lots lots of first-timers and new people. So we went along. Oh, my God. It was the wildest. I've never got so used to people just having sex all around me. Like I remember there were orgies going on.

The people were beautiful. I mean, they were really attractive young people, but there was just sex going on everywhere. And I remember looking over at Christian who was at the bar because we paid a lot of money for these tickets and, you know, he wasn't going to be having any sex. So he stood at the bar just drinking because the alcohol was included and he wanted to get his money's worth. And this man walked out of the bedroom next to

him and he had no pants on, but he was wearing a long kind of shirt. And I was looking at the man and I thought, I wonder if he's got any undies on. And I had that thought he turned to the side and his giant boner hit Christian in the leg anyway just to bring this all home for those of you at home that are thinking she just asked about when um things really went wrong for you So that was what I did in the name of this book. And also, you know, Christian and I both traumatized, spent a lot of money on going to this party. I then wrote a book about a swingers party and my publisher said she didn't want to publish it. And I remember, and I'd spent a year writing it. I'd gone to the party, I'd done the whole thing, and I remember saying to Christian, you know,

they're not going to publish the swingers book. And he looked at me and he said, does this mean that we can't claim the swingers party as a tax deduction? I got hit by a boner for no reason. I know, I know. The boner, that's fine, but can we claim it on our tax? Oh, my God. So, you know, and that was a huge setback and that was after I had ostensibly, you know, had some success in my career and, in fact,

it was on the heels of my biggest success. I then basically wasn't paid for a whole year because that book wasn't published I was the primary bread winner at that point in our lives and you know now I'm the sole breadwinner but that that was a scary thing both financially as well as creatively and when you put those two things together, it can be, you know, a real nightmare. And it took me, well, a whole book, The Good Sister was my next book, which again, thankfully, was successful. But that book came with a lot of handholding from my publishers, assuring me that I could do it again. And I think I probably only just regained that confidence that I lost while also

knowing that it will probably happen again. You know, if you continue to write stories and put yourself out there, we know that probably success will come. And we also know that, that failure will come and that's just part of it. And you'll get hit by a boner for no reason. And boners. Smack you around. Oh, God. I just, one of the things that makes me laugh so much about that particular story is that I know Christian through your Instagram account, which sounds kind of creepy, but I just, he makes me laugh. I cannot explain how funny that guy is.

He's hilarious. He's so hilarious. Would you like to tell us the story of how you met? Yes, I'm glad that you find him funny. Everyone seems to like Christian. I'm glad he's very amusing to all of us here. We met through a mutual friend who, in fact, a girl that I worked with met Christian.

They were having breakfast next to each other at a cafe and she asked to borrow a section of his newspaper and she said to me when she told me later that she quite fancied him and then he stood up and he wasn't tall enough because she was really tall and she needed a really tall man and so she came to work the following Monday and said, I've got a man for you because I'm quite short. You're really going to like him. And as it turned out, I did really like him. And he had a party at his house a week or so later.

I came and it was really, you know, there was chemistry straight away and we got together quite quickly. And we moved to Canada together about six months later and came back married with a baby so it was just one of those those things I think I was equally attracted to how funny he was so we've had lots of laughs since then yeah oh he's so funny my goodness I love that article you wrote about him and how he now supports you in the work that you do do you want to tell us how that works now because obviously he was an accountant how is it that he contributes to your success in your career yeah well he's he's like he's the

stay-at-home dad so he's like the reverse kind of situation that you see more often um he does all of the things that that that I used to do when I was at home he does the the laundry and he picks up the kids and manages that side of things he also as you mentioned he's an accountant and so now that we have the the Sally Hepworth Enterprises business he takes care of all of that which which is a huge relief, all of the tax stuff and all of the financial things. So he's kind of CEO of the home slash, you know, CFO of Sally Hepworth. But look, I think it's interesting. I saw Jane Harper speak last week and she was asked about her work-life balance and

wasn't it interesting that her husband was the stay-at-home parent and Leon Moriarty is another Australian author that her husband is the stay-at-home parent. And I think it's great. I love talking about it because I think it should be normalized and I think that it shouldn't be that interesting. At the same time, I kind of think it shouldn't be as noteworthy as it is, you know, that I don't think that he would be asked about it if he was enjoying a successful career and was being interviewed. I don't think that he would be asked, you know, tell us about the dynamic of your wife being at home, you know, like when you hear it

like that, it just sounds like madness, doesn't it? And, and so I'm kind of on the fence of, I love, I'm proud of the fact that I'm the breadwinner and, you know, he's an amazing support to me, but it shouldn't be a focus of, know it shouldn't be as interesting as it is and I hope that you know the more people that that have this circumstance will lead other men to taking on that role because Christian's much better at it than I ever was yeah my husband's much better at parenting than me a lot of the time my brain's like zipping around all the time and so he's like much steadier in general and better with routine I really hate routine and he's like clockwork and kids really love that and so yeah I love that idea

that you're a team and that you play to your strengths and you just make it work and it doesn't have to be this sort of traditional way of doing things I would be miserable if I was if I was at home with the kids full-time And some people love that and it's their favourite thing and you just, you know, it's about trying to make it work for you and whatever that looks like. And so thank you for talking about it because I know it's annoying to have to, but also I agree with you, it normalises it. And it just gives people options to think, oh, life could look that way or this way. Yeah, and it's not annoying. to think, ah, life could look that way or this way. Yeah.

And it's not annoying. What it is is it's just about I'm happy to talk about it, but I always feel like it needs to be pointed out that it's not a question that men are asked. And I think the more times we say that, the more people will recalibrate about the questions that we ask, you know? Totally. Here's a question. Why didn't they publish the swingers book?

What was it about it that they were like, no, Sally, no thank you? I know. Good question. Look, I think when people are being kind, they say things like, oh, it was probably too risque, you know, maybe the world wasn't ready for it. And I couldn't go along with that. But I think in my heart of hearts, I don't think it was good enough. I think that I had an idea of what it could be, and I don't think I pulled it off. And I may have kept going at it

and tried to get it right if my publisher had been really supportive and had seen where I was trying to go. But my publisher, after my second go at it, said, I think maybe we should put this to the side. And so I did leave it. But look, I think if I'm being honest, I just didn't do a very good job of it. I've since seen books come out about swingers parties. There was one recently and it did really well so and it was an American book because some people said oh it's the American audience that wouldn't like it but I just think I didn't do a good job of it so interesting because then you said you wrote The Good Sister which I loved and Rose and Fern oh that just the whole story where did that come from where did that story yeah so I can't completely remember the moment that it happened I know that there was a lot of difficulty getting

me to that point ready to write another book because I was really floored by the the last book not getting published I found that really difficult um but when it came around to write there's another book to write and I didn't have much time to waste because I'd lost a year of salary I needed to get writing. And I remember the character of Fern, who is the protagonist, I guess, of The Good Sister. She came to me quite strongly. And at that time, I was writing books in the library. I would go to the Brighton Library with my computer each day and I would sit there and write my books. And so the idea of a book set in the library or with a librarian as a character was really interesting to me.

When Fern came to me, she came very clearly as being autistic. And that was something that I had to think about because my son and daughter are autistic and I've spent a lot of time in the world, as it were. I also have got a great respect for the idea of leaving space for everyone to be able to tell their own stories. So it's a little bit of a murky kind of field. I have ADHD, so I am neurodiverse, but I'm not autistic. And so I had to sit with that for a bit, but I decided to go ahead with it for two reasons. One is that I really wanted to, you have to think about what am I going to add? If I'm going to step into this field, what am I going to add that I haven't seen before? And I realized what I really did want to add was talking about sensory processing disorder, which is a really common comorbidity of autism that affects my son

particularly, but also my daughter. And I think that the more people understand that, it is fiction and it's out there to entertain, but I loved the idea of including that in a book. The other thing I wanted to do was to write a story, not necessarily about autism, but with a autistic protagonist just living an ordinary life. She's not in the book to make a point about autism or to discover that she's autistic or for her family to become aware of that. She's actually in the book because she's a woman. She's facing challenges that have nothing to do with her being autistic. And that is the kind of representation that I want to see in books, you know, that people are just in them because they exist. So I had my character, I had my setting of the library.

I've got two daughters, which is an interesting relationship because I have no sisters. And watching them and their little dynamic that they have with each other really sparked an interest in sisters. And from there, the character of Rose was born and all of the interesting dynamics between them were just about me figuring out their story. Yeah, it's so interesting to me. Do you feel like because this storyline was grounded more in your

lived experience that it made more sense to you and you were able to write it in a better way than, say, the Swingers book? Maybe. I don't know. Certainly, the character of Fern came really easily. I don't know. And I have had to kind of ask myself, what have I learned? I don't know. I think what I've learned is just that some books work and some books don't. It could be. It could be because I was confident in the world of writing a character like Fern, whereas I'm not particularly, even with my trip to the swingers party, I'm not as confident with that. You know, and I've heard so many authors who've had quite a few books under their

belt talk about the books that they tried to write and didn't work and they don't know why. And I think sometimes it's just part of it. I mean, maybe in a sense, just failing at something is really important in a you know in a journey towards success hopefully because of what you learn from that I don't know I wanted to ask you about your story with ADHD because you mentioned that before when did you get diagnosed so I was diagnosed in 2020, yeah, 2020 during the lockdown. And it was after my daughter, Eloise, had been diagnosed with ADHD. Later, my son was also diagnosed. But I remember hearing that she had it. And I was surprised because she, while she had had some difficulty in various areas at school, she didn't have what I thought of as ADHD. I always thought of it as being a naughty, fidgety, you know, little boy.

A loud boy. Yeah, the loud boy in class that mucks around a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas she was really much more of a dreamer. And she was quite creative and really quirky and wonderful, but she was a real dreamer. And her teachers kept saying to us, oh, you know, maybe we should look into something. And I was that dreadful parent going, nah, she's fine. No. And I remember one day she said to me,

because she'd just been told she wasn't concentrating in class, but she looked like she was concentrating. So I said to her, what are you doing when it looks like you're concentrating? And she said, well, what I do if something's really boring is I look at the teacher so she thinks I'm listening and then I make up a story in my head. And in the story, I'm the hero and I usually will the school might be on fire and then I rescue someone from a burning building and I come out and everyone claps and I thought well I mean isn't that what everyone does when the teachers are saying something boring you make up stories in your head and it was that moment that I thought wow so she was diagnosed shortly after that and I told the pediatrician that story and he said that's classic inattentive

ADHD and it's something that we see a lot of in girls rather than than in the presentation that boys more often have and I said well I think I might have it too. And he said, well, maybe you do. And I went away and researched ADHD in girls and women. And sure enough, I went down that process of getting diagnosed and my psychiatrist said, you're a classic case. He said, writers, musicians, artists and actors make up the vast majority of his clients because there is that kind of correlation between that creative world that people with ADHD sink into and the way that it helps to create different sorts of art. So, yeah, it was great to get a diagnosis. It helped me understand myself much better. I think it helped my family to understand me better. I've sort of stopped

short of calling it a superpower because I think that can not adequately help convey the challenges of it because I do find a lot of challenges because of my ADHD, but we all have challenges, you know, and, and I wouldn't, you know, we're all the kind of product of the challenges we face. So. How does it present for you? So when you say there's great things and then challenges, what are those for you? Cause I know it's different for different neurodivergent people. It's not like exactly what you were saying with your character Fern, autism looks like X, you know, We're all unique snowflakes, for want of a better word. What does it look like for you?

So one of the main things is, I call it confusion, but it's time blindness is one thing that they, is a sort of technical term. For example, the moment it's a really busy time because I've got a book coming out and there have been various schedules of places I'm meant to be and things that I've got on. And I will find out that I have to be going to Sydney tomorrow. And it has been in my diary for three weeks and I've looked at it. But then when I get up in the morning, I'll be surprised. Shit. You know, and Christian helps me with that and he'll set alarms and do all the things. So many things are a surprise to me when I look at my diary each day.

Things like my editor always used to laugh that every year I would get my copy edits and he would have to he'd have to explain how I have to do them and he'd think I was joking and I'm like I cannot remember ever doing this before how does this work I used when I was the full-time parent I used to forget to pick up my kids it was a joke everyone thought it was funny I had friends that would wait around to make sure that I came to pick them up um and if I didn't she would take them and it's funny but it's also kind of you know and I feel really I feel really ashamed of that a lot of times I find like again it makes so much sense my friends will say that

they know that if there's a dinner a girl dinner, they'll never ask me to bring anything. And I never offer, you know, and they're all bringing salads and, you know, occasionally, like I can bring wine or like ice cream. So I don't have to, but making a salad, I can't do that. That's just too many steps. I don't cook at all because I can either go to the grocery store or the supermarket or I can cook, but just having to do all of that, no, too much. And so all of those things, while it's kind of funny, and now I just don't do it because I have Christian that does it, for most of my life, I saw people doing these really simple tasks like bringing a salad and, you know, and stacking their dishwasher while cleaning their kitchen. And I thought, how are you doing that?

And people would say to me, how do you write a book a year? Like this is amazing. And I would be all, but you are bringing a salad, you know, like that, like let's just talk about that. Because salad, like all that stuff you've got to get and how do you keep it fresh and what about the dressing? So and then salad servers. So for me it is just that minutiae of life.

I can do big things but I can't do small things. It's the hard things versus, yeah, that are easy. Yeah. And the easy things that are hard. Yeah, exactly that. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting hearing you talk Sally because I so much of what you're saying resonates with me and I've been really resonant I haven't said this actually on anything that I make or do because I don't feel qualified like I haven't been to see anyone about it mentioned it to a GP, but so much of what you say makes so much sense to me.

Really? Hugely. I thought about it for a long time about going to see someone, but I felt like the diagnosis path is complicated. And if you have this kind of time blindness thing, it's even more freaking complicated because I find appointments like impossible to turn up for and a surprise. A surprise. Even this interview to me, I had three reminders in my phone and I got Claire to check in and it was still a surprise to me when I woke up in the morning and my phone went off.

I was like, oh, that's right. Even though I'd spent last night researching for the interview and I'd read the book and I was like so excited about it, still a surprise. Oh, my I was like so excited about it. Still a surprise. Oh my God, you've definitely got it. And you know, the good news is, so there is bad news of it, right? Like that's hard and you do feel ashamed and you do kind of internalize this idea that you're not trying hard enough. And that I used to be told, told oh near enough is good enough for you Sally you know you've no attention to detail that stuff I think we have absorbed the when people are being kinder

you're scatty and you know it's funny but you also it's hard to take yourself seriously um the the plus side I guess is that if you can get to the diagnosis point, and by the way, I've had a long conversation with the receptionist at my psychiatrist who also has ADHD. And she said, you will not believe, like trying to get people to show up to their appointments and like fill out the forms. She said it's like a comedy show. And so there's getting to that point. And then there's the financial commitment, because it's a thing of privilege to be able to afford to get a diagnosis as well and adhd is a

black hole when it comes to ndis funding at the moment that may change um but even the understanding of this is what is happening when i can't, you know, get somewhere on time or when I get confused. It's been such a kind of, at the risk of sounding a bit airy-fairy, it's been healing for me just knowing that it's not that I don't care enough and it's not that I don't contribute. I want to contribute when I go to my friend's home for dinner, but I can't bring a salad. And the people who love me are like, Sal doesn't bring salad. That's fine. You contribute in other ways. And that will be true of you and all of us that we can't do everything, but we contribute in other ways. God, I didn't expect to get emotional. This is really unprofessional. I want to give you a hug.

I just, I think I wanted to ask you about that shame thing because particularly for my brain, I care about everything in an excruciating amount of detail. Yeah. But I will still forget birthdays. I will still turn up late. I will still think that I have booked in tickets with a good friend to go to something that she's wanted to go to for ages. And it ended up being the same weekend as my

friend's 40th, which I'm taking the kids to. And I just can't go. And then I'm calling her at like two hours before, or just someone turns up at a thing. One time I booked tickets to a theater show and I had dental surgery the same day and I felt so bad. So I just turned up with a theatre show and I had dental surgery the same day and I felt so bad so I just turned up with a face full of dental stuff and sat in the audience to watch the show my friend was like are you okay and I was high on painkillers so I didn't want to not turn up because that's like this classic Claire scatty brain right that you then feel like people think you're not very clever yeah or that you don't care and that you didn't want to go to that thing with them. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then what I find also so interesting is when you feel like you're a clever person, but you can't be consistent enough to actually

deliver. And then people ask you things and I'll go into my brain for the name of something that I've studied at university and they'll just be like tumbleweeds yeah just like a woman in there running around through files and nothing going on and I think but I studied this I should know this how do you what do you know so what do you do to combat all of that now now that you have that diagnosis do you have strategies oh no so so that that strategies exist and one of the things my psychiatrist said to me is that you can take medication and I do take medication and I also have I see a psychologist and he said this will not make you a different person which in one way is very comforting because you I don't want to become a different person, which in one way is very comforting because I don't want to become a different person. There are lots of things about me that I love.

And as a mother of two kids with ADHD, I didn't want them turning into zombies. You know, that old kind of fear that is planted in you as a parent. You don't want your kids or yourself to be zombies. He said that is not going to happen and that we won't tolerate that if you take medication and it turns you into a zombie if it dulls your creativity if it gets rid of your joie de vivre you know no that means it's the wrong dose or maybe you don't respond to that medication now i yes so i've forgotten what you said now. Where was I going with that? We were talking about strategies. Strategies, yes. So medication is a strategy and that is incredibly helpful for keeping me at the task.

If I have got a day of writing to do, I get so much more done if I take a stimulant and I don't take them if I don't need to. The other things that are helpful, and this is due to my own personal circumstance, is that I have been able to hire an assistant who does a lot of the stuff that I forget and who knows that every morning she needs to go, hey, remember this, like she'll actually text me the things if they're important. So that's helpful. And there are a number of things you can put in place. And there are a million videos like on YouTube about leaving stuff out that you need to remember. And I do do that a little bit. So it's right in front of you.

But in general, I still forget stuff. I'm still late. I'm still confused, but I am much more forgiving of myself and I'm much more kind of ready to apologise, you know, I'll get there. I'm not as sort of mortified. If I show up 10 minutes late to a podcast, for example, and I'll say, I am so sorry, I forgot. And I might say I've got ADHD or I might not mention that but I don't take it on as this great failing of my character because I know why and it doesn't mean that I don't respect people's time but it also isn't the end of the world you know people forget stuff so I do think it's worth getting a diagnosis if you you know if you can get there yeah I think there's lots of things in the universe that have been

telling me I need to go and actually go down that rabbit hole. So thank you so much. That's been so valuable. I think that message of self-acceptance and self-compassion and kindness is just everything really for everyone, not just for people with ADHD, but especially in that trajectory of when you feel like you've failed a lot when you're trying so hard. I didn't realize I thought that everyone just tried that hard and sometimes were late, but for some people just turn up a bit late and it's no big deal, but I've been trying and somehow I'm still blowing, drying my hair five minutes before I need to be there. Anyway, I wanted to ask you now about the soulmate.

And actually, I'll kind of cross this over with hyperfocus because that's a skill in ADHD that we've sort of heard around a lot. Do you use hyperfocus to write your books? I mean, I do, definitely. And I had that before even taking medication. It's a really common thing, hyperfocus, that people don't understand about ADHD. They think that ADHD means you're scatty and can't concentrate. But equally, you know, it can make you concentrate really well.

The problem with hyperfocus is that you need to be hyper-focused on the right thing. And Christian always says that he can tell that I'm spiralling. And it could be many things, but lately, and I don't know if you're across, I lost a lot of my hair earlier this year and I've started to get wigs. And I now have so many wigs, they're all over everywhere. And when I go into a hyper focus of the wrong direction he will find me in the bathroom washing my wings

because you get toppers as well and they look amazing I know because there were articles online about it you I've seen you on like a breakfast show I think talking about it I am I'm now a wing fluencer but so it's all very well and good if I'm hyper focused on writing my book but equally and often when I am under deadline and it's actually really important that I'm doing something else I'll decide to become hyper focused on washing my wigs and you know it's it's funny but it's also not very good is it um and and it's been happening all my life I remember speaking to my publisher years ago when my edits were due and I hadn't sent them in and he rang and he said is everything okay and I said I'm just painting some furniture

and when I'm done I will get to the edits. Oh, my God. Yeah, I remember last year I think I had like all this podcast editing due and instead I made a video online of me putting netting over my vegetable garden because I was really intent on this possum that I was having a fight with. It kept eating my seedlings. And then I just spent so long buying all this equipment and researching all this stuff and then I've just spent so long buying all this equipment and

researching all this stuff and then literally was all due so I had to stay up all night to finish this stupid podcast because I'd spent all day gardening anyway it is right is that partly the adrenaline do you sometimes need the adrenaline to get you to focus I don't know because it's not that, I'm not that classic kind of, there's a great TED talk about the procrastination monkey and the panic monster and, you know, how you can procrastinate and procrastinate and you can't work any harder until, you know, the panic monster comes out when you've got 12 hours to go and then. And that can apply to people with or without ADHD. And I actually think that I am not so much

that way, that the panic monster, I think, makes me unable to work. Like I'll just spiral and just go into it. I prefer to have time. I think it's more for me, it's just a misdirection of my energy. And once I get focused on something, I can't get off. So I know that I need to be doing my work, but I've decided I need to wash all my wings and I just, I can't stop. And, you know, it is a bit of a, maybe a compulsive thing too, because I also pull my hair out, which is a compulsive OCD type. Well, it falls under the category of OCD. And so I think it is kind of some of my misdirections are almost compulsive. So, yeah, but a lot of people do get that panic monster adrenaline rush that they need to finish something.

For me, I just need to have a good amount of time and not be misdirected by anything. And I'll get it done. Just in a room with bare walls and no wigs. A cell. Yeah, no wigs. Yeah, exactly. Locked in a cell with no wigs. Sounds like Sally Hepworth's hell without her wigs to look at.

They are beautiful wigs. This is one. I really love it. Oh, my gosh. It's lovely. You've really made it trendy. I feel like it's like, you know, the next thing everyone's getting. Okay, so we are coming to the end of the interview

and I wanted to talk to you about The Soulmate because I love it. I mean, I also love The Younger Sister as well. I just love the way you write women in particular and the relationships between them. I find them, the characters so well-rounded and relatable and I immediately go, oh, that's like that person in my life. And I just adore your writing in general. The Soulmate, I've raced through because it's very, it's like a sort of a thriller. I'm not really, it's just a page turner. Did you write it during lockdown I did yes I wrote two books during lockdown I wrote

The Younger Wife and and also The Soulmate what is it called uh and you know it was actually of all the books I've written it was one of the easiest I say you know no books are easy, but I got into the flow of it and it really came out the way that I kind of wanted it to. And as I said before, you know, each book is a new beast and some of them never come together. But this one, yeah, I don't know if it was because we were in lockdown in spite of the fact that we were in lockdown, but yeah, it certainly the lockdown inspired the the topic which which was of marriage and murder I've seen you talk about that I thought that is so perfect yeah it just like sounds like a real outlet for all these people stuck in their homes with their husbands yeah I think everyone after that lockdown in Melbourne everyone wanted to read a book about

marriage and murder. So yeah, it was good fun to write it. Yeah. Gabe is a really interesting character. Do you want to tell us about him and the way that you wrote him? Yeah, well, I'll tell you quickly about the premise. So the book is about, as I said, marriage and specifically two marriages. One is the marriage of Gabe and Pip who live in this beautiful cliffside cottage. It's quite picturesque and lovely. And the thing that they don't know until they move in is that the cliff on which their house is perched is very popular among people going to end their lives. And that's obviously very terrible, but a little silver lining is that Gabe has sort of found redemption in a way because they have moved away from Melbourne in order to

start this sea change of a life. And he's found redemption by talking the people down from the cliff. And in the year that they've lived there, seven people have come to the cliff and all seven have walked away because of Gabe until one person doesn't walk away. And that happens in the first chapter, a woman comes to the cliff and unfortunately, she goes over the cliff. And so the two marriages are Gabe and Pip who live in the cliff house. And then Amanda, who is the woman who's gone over the cliff and some of her story is told posthumously and her husband Max.

And we kind of follow these two marriages and look at how they started and how they evolved and ultimately how they intertwine. So that's the book. And Gabe, as you mentioned, is a really interesting character to follow. He's very charismatic. He's very handsome. He's got that magic kind of quality to him. And he also, unfortunately, with mental illness, he's very troubled and he has really gone through some difficulties in his life and being able to manage his mental illness. And his wife, Pip, has also had to manage that. And

yeah, he was a fascinating character to write. I was able to lean on, which I always do in my books, I try to write about mental illness or conditions that affect people in my world. And I was able to really lean on the story of someone close to me to create him. Wow. I think that must be why he resonates when you read the story. And I think also the relationship between him and Pip, you see, I've seen that. I've seen that happen and play out in that kind of intense love, but then also the complexity of a person who can be at once sparkly and amazing, and then the dark side of that, and whether you think that person should stay in the relationship or not

and the complexity of once you throw kids in the mix and all of those things. What did you want to say about love and marriage with this book? That is a great question. That was certainly what I wanted to explore and the idea of a soulmate because we see two very different marriages. We see the shiny magic chemistry in that relationship with Gabe and Pip and we also see the very troubled side and then we have a very different marriage with Max and Amanda that started without any of the chemistry. In fact, it was more of an arrangement type of marriage. And then their

marriage progressed. And I don't want to give too much away, but I really wanted to juxtapose the two relationships against each other. Not so much to make a point about what a soulmate is, but to make everyone think about what it is. Is there such a thing as a soulmate? How important is chemistry? How important is friendship? Is there one thing that works for everyone or is it different for every person? And if I've got people asking themselves that, then I think I've done my job. I think you absolutely have done your job. And I won't give too much away, but even the trajectory of Amanda, I know she's talking to us from the grave in a lot of the book, but the idea that she's so practical in her choice of Max,

but over time falls in love with him after being married to him, I find so fascinating. And that idea of being with someone for so long that they become so much a part of you and your life that you fall in love in a different way. It made me reflect about that too, right? That you can have that fiery chemistry at the beginning, like my partner and I got married when we, well, I got married, but got together when I was 19. And how over the course of a marriage, you'll become different people. And if you stick with it and you see that kind of evolve,

it's a really beautiful thing to explore. Yeah. And for some people, you know, chemistry is different. Like my mum famously said at her 70th birthday, she did a little, and she's not very sentimental, my mum, but she did a little snippet of her speech for my dad and she said um Trevor it's been a lovely life the other day I was sitting inside and I looked out the window and you were mowing the lawn and you waved at me and I waved back and I thought I'm happy that I get to wave to

him out the window and I hope I can still do it for a few more years to come. And at the time I thought that's a weird thing to say. But the older I get, the more romantic I think that is. And, you know, over the course of your life, I really hope that I'm waving to Christian when I'm 70 and he's outside mowing the lawn. I think that's actually one of the most romantic things I can imagine. I think so too, checking the pool for depth or whatever he's doing, watching the pool cleaner go on your Instagram. If anyone's listening to this and is curious about Christian, go and follow Sally on Instagram.

That made me laugh so much because the passion that he clearly has for science and how things work. It's just glorious to behold and a reminder of how wonderful it is for us to be unique and fully ourselves. Yes. You know? Exactly. I think that's the gift of neurodivergence as well, right? It really is and celebrating everyone for who they are but also bringing that kind of celebration back to yourself as well and

forgiveness back to yourself because you know if we love people that are neurodiverse and different and wonderful then you know why shouldn't we be loved that way you're absolutely right oh god i'm gonna cry again so sorry thank you it's been so lovely to meet you and i've just absolutely loved this conversation thank Thank you so much. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for having me and, you know, let's do it again. Yes, that would be lovely. Where can people find you? What's the best way to go and find information about where you're doing things? Yes. Well, my website is sallyhepworthauthor.com and that is usually updated with events and things like that. But on a day-to-day level, Instagram, at Sally Hepworth,

Facebook, which is, I don't know, facebook.com slash Sally Hepworth perhaps. But, look, I mostly hang out at Instagram and, yeah, and that's a great way to contact me. Definitely. And, like, just, like, look at your outfit choices because that's my other favourite thing. Just like, oh, she's opening another box of cool goodies to look at and try on and how gorgeous. It's beautiful.

Oh, thank you. All right. Well, thank you so much. Go definitely and grab yourself a copy of The Soulmate because it's brilliant and all your work. If anyone listening hasn't read your stuff yet, because it's absolutely brilliant. So thank you.

Pleasure. Bye. Bye. You've been listening to a podcast by me, Claire Tonti, and this week with the wonderful Sally Hepworth. And yes, I still have a cold, but we're soldiering on. For more from Sally, you can head to her website, sallyhepworth.com or go and follow her on Instagram to follow along with all her wonderful

exploits with her husband, Christian and her gorgeous kids and her wigs and her beautiful outfits and all the things. She's just a delight of a human, that one. And for more from me, you can head to claire20.com. You can also head over to Instagram. That's my social media of choice where I like to tell stories. And I have another podcast called Suggestible that comes out every Thursday with my husband, man, James Clement, YouTuber, Mr. Sunday Movies, where we talk all things recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to. And we swap. So if you have something that your husband likes to watch that you don't like to watch or vice versa, this is the show for you. We often have a little argument and

have a bit of a laugh along the way. So that comes out every Thursday. As always, thank you to Royal Collings for editing this week's episode and to Maisie for running our social media. And just a reminder that if you would like to come along to the launch of my album, oh my gosh, that's happening on the 12th of February, three o'clock at the Wesleyan in Melbourne. And for those of you who aren't here in Melbourne, I'm going to try and get around the country later in the year, hopefully to tour some of the music, but it will all be available as a digital download after the 12th of Feb. And also hopefully as a pre-order on vinyl. So t-shirts and things will also be available online in my online store

when that's all set up. But for now, if you're in Melbourne, I would love to see you come along, have a drink, have a laugh and have a listen and maybe a big cry to the music that I'm creating. So that's it for me. Have a wonderful week and I'll talk to you soon. Bye.