TONTS. - Beauty & Worthiness with Hilary Holmes

Episode Date: July 13, 2021

This is a big conversation about womanhood and beauty and self love. About overcoming childhood trauma and backing yourself. It's about the incredible highs and lows of motherhood and the complicated relationships we have with beauty, our faces and our bodies. My guest today is make up artist Hilary Holmes. She runs her own makeup and styling business as well as teaching masterclasses to women about how to apply their make up based on their individual needs. Just a heads up we also talk about disordered eating, childhood trauma and mental health. If you find any of this difficult or triggering please contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or talk to someone you trust.Subscribe here for – tontsnewsletterYou can find me on instagram @clairetonti or at www.clairetonti.comYou can find more from Hilary Holmes and information about her work at www.hilaryholmes.com.auYou can email me with suggestions for episode topics and guests to [e-mail]. Feel free to leave me a voice memo to be included in the show.A big thank you to this wonderful team:Editing - RAW CollingsTheme Music - Avocado JunkieGraphic Design - Emma HackettPhotography - Anna RobinsonStyling - Hilary Holmes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Just a warning, this episode contains discussions of disordered eating, body image and mental health, especially around the difficulty of working through childhood trauma and motherhood. If this brings up anything for you, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or talk to someone you trust. The Islamic poet Rumi once wrote, You suppose you are the trouble, but you are the cure. You suppose that you are the lock on the door, but you are the key that opens it. It's too bad that you want to be someone else. You don't see your own face, your own beauty yet. No face is more beautiful than yours. Hello, I'm Tonce. Welcome to my podcast. This is a show about feeling all of it.

Let me tell you a story. Something unexpected happened to me a few years ago. I went running in the middle of the night and fell on my face. Now, my smile was historically for me the thing that I've always led with. It's massive. People often commented on my smile in a way my big, broad grin was my armour, my way of facing the world head on, of making people feel comfortable and showing joy. And then suddenly it wasn't. I lost three of my front teeth and for over a year I had dental surgery after dental surgery to put my teeth back together.

This meant having three blackened front teeth, then wearing dentures, and for a while having a really visible hole in my gums. I remember I did a radio interview at the ABC, the only one I've ever done, with teeth braces on and scratches all over my face from the fall. I walked into rooms to do interviews with people I'd never met, thinking, yep, here we go, they can see my broken teeth and my gums and I've just got to get on with it anyway. I discovered something through that process though, that what makes me Claire, what makes me valuable to the world and to myself is so much more than my smile and that we do

ourselves a deep disservice if we think that if we don't look a certain way, we don't deserve to be in the room or have our voice heard. In fact, what I learned was that yes, you can be treated differently because of your appearance in whatever shape or form that takes. But ultimately what changes the game, ups the ante, is the relationship you have with yourself. And this strength can carry you through, carry you much further than whether or not you have the perfect highlights or the right makeup. What I think does make the difference is that taking pride in our appearance and carefully selecting clothes and colors that suit us, makeup that flatters us or getting our hair cut, are part of self-care if we do them from a place of love for ourselves and our bodies.

My dad once told me that taking pride in your appearance is also about showing respect to the people you are meeting with and that has stuck with me too. So while I push back really hard at the idea that we should all fit into some cookie cutter ideal of beauty, of a particular size or body shape, the idea that we care and nurture our bodies and look after our faces, our hair, even our nails is one that I can get on board with because we are all worthy of love and so are our bodies if we let them shine in their own uniqueness rather than trying to make them conform to one idealized version of what beauty means. So when Rumi wrote, no face is more beautiful than yours,

what I think he is writing is a reminder that your face, to you, should be the most beautiful because it is yours to have for the whole of your life. It's the only one you get. It allows you to see the world, to kiss the ones you love, to laugh, to express yourself, to eat, to smell, to feel the wind on your face and caring for it, for all of you externally as well as internally is vital. The other side of this coin is that makeup and hair and all the beauty things can be fun and playful and joyful and a part of expressing who you are. But this is what I struggle with too. It's really hard to know where the tipping point is, where the time to tap out and step back is, whether you're doing something for you or whether it's for other people's expectations. And this is where I think

it gets tricky. I think especially for women, but for everybody. So I decided to talk to a friend of mine, Hilary Holmes. Hilary is a makeup artist and runs her own business, catering to everyday humans as well as models and celebrities. She's also a mum to two beautiful kids and has lived many lives. From growing up in a really difficult, unstable home, to being bullied at school for overeating and the stomach banding that changed her life, to studying science and finally finding a voice in the beauty industry, Hilary is someone who it is clear is seeking to love herself and those around her the very best she can.

We recorded this amongst her bright white makeup studio in South Melbourne full of beauty counters, brushes and glamorous couches. It was a freezing day in Melbourne so you'll hear the heater in the background and some cars whizzing past. On each mirror lining the walls is a small sticker that says you are worthy. A reminder to her clients but I also think a reminder to herself that she is just as worthy of love and nurturing and care. We all have a story. Here's Hilary's. What do you think about body image? Like, where are you at with all of that? Oh my gosh, it's a complicated story for me because

I was 103 kilos at 16 years old and I got up to 135 kilos and without, I mean, I have done every diet under the sun, like every, and I started when I was, I remember started dieting when I was 10. Cause I'm from a family of really big people. I eventually got weight loss surgery five years ago, actually almost to the month and I lost 50 kilos. But that aside, you know, I think, you know what, when you become a mum and when you give birth, I think there just becomes this level of appreciation to your body that you just kind of, someone said to me, oh, you've lost, yesterday I was at daycare and one of the girls said, oh, you've lost weight.

I'm like, have I? I'm like, I love working out and I, even when I was really overweight, like I used to play state netball up in Queensland and I've always loved exercise. So even when I was really overweight, it wasn't that I was unhealthy in the way that I ate. It was more like I just, it was my emotional tool to help me through some really tough mental periods. So I loved exercise, always have. And my relationship with my body has always been a very complex one. But I think since having children, it's been really liberating that

I just, it's funny, I put up on my social media how when I gave birth to Adelaide, oh, sorry, to Obi recently, he's seven months old. So you've got Obi and Adelaide. Adelaide's three yesterday. Yeah. And Obi is seven months. Because you put up that incredible post of you. Was that at Adelaide's birth?

That was Adelaide's birth, yeah. Yeah. I'm really lucky that I had a really great birth support and she took some amazing photos. And I would have been, I'm totally fine to show you all the guts and there was a couple more bloodier shots that I probably just was like, ah, maybe. No, but it was so powerful actually.

I thought it was so powerful and beautiful because I think that the thing about food and body image is that I think as women we're so critical of our bodies and we need them to look a certain way and there's that balance of health versus how we look. Where do you sit on that spectrum? Are you like the stomach banding and all the things? Was that about health for you or about image? That was, no, fuck image.

Honestly, I'm a make a makeup artist and I couldn't tell you more. I'm really opposed about this comparison culture that we're in and about women being told by society and by everything that we should be a certain way. I'm very much about being authentic. The reason why I got weight loss surgery was at that time I was doing a lot of work on my mental health. I had done a couple of years of chakra. I did some chakra courses and I was really in tune with my spirituality. The weight loss surgery was simply allowing me to become more authentic in who I was and not being dictated by my weight anymore. So I took, I had the weight loss surgery and don't get me wrong, it's been a very complicated surgery. I've had lots of complications and eventually I will

need my stomach removed due to some complications from it. But since the surgery and since having kids, I have a level of appreciation to my body and its resilience and its strength. I've had so much going on physically with my body and it's done such amazing stuff that I think when I gave birth, I'm like, I can't hate a body that it might, it's got to say like, my boobs look like socks with marbles in them. And I actually don't care. I really don't care about if someone else thinks they're attractive. My biggest person that I want to impress and that I dress for and that I put my makeup on for and I want to look sexy for and feel good for is me. That's all.

And that's all been derived from my journey with my body and taking away that idea of having to please anyone else, that as long as I'm really confident in who I am, that's the most attractive quality in anyone, I think. That's so true. Where did your journey kind of start? I know that you've talked about, as a kid, struggling with your weight and being bullied at school.

Do you want to tell us a bit more about that story? Bullying is a tough one for me because I was bullied from a very, very young age. So I remember being bullied starting around grade two for being overweight. I got caught thunder thighs. And not even actually at school, I'm one of six children and I was the second last one. And my siblings, like very quick-witted. And you know what siblings are like, they can be totally brutal.

You know, kids are really clever. You know, they're really smart. Like I got bullied in grade two, my house burnt down and it was across the road from like that can be totally brutal. You know, kids are really clever. You know, they're really smart. Like I got bullied in grade two, my house burnt down and it was across the road from the school in the primary school. And so the whole school watched my house burn down and I'm Hilary Holmes and they called me Hilary homeless for the next two years. I mean, that is actually really clever. That's what I mean. Like I can't, looking back on it, brilliant. If I had a child that was bullying and that said that I'm like, right, first of all, we're stamping that out, but second,

if you're smart enough to think of that, be smart enough to think of something like that's nice and kind. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's great alliteration really even. Yeah, crazy. And so my bullying was in high school at home, but then it went into high school probably from a couple of different reasons.

But then actually I actually moved university campuses when I was studying Bachelor of Science at Melbourne Uni. I moved from Parkville up to the country because I got bullied really, really badly by a few of the boys that spread some really bad rumours about me. And so I didn't know what to do. I was just like, you know, in a matter of days, my reputation got completely destroyed.

So I moved to the country and had to escape it. So bullying has been, it's everywhere. It's not just in children. It's not just in adults. It's everywhere. Like, you know, I can tell you a number of stories now of bullying that's existing in. In our parliament house, for instance, in our broader culture, in workplaces. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Do you think part of it could be around being an outspoken person? Were you an outspoken kid? Yes.

Apparently I was assertive from the get-go. It's almost like the more people tell me to be quiet, the louder I get. I just get, I'm a really stubborn person. I'm a Taurus through and through. Yes. People, you either love me or hate me, and that's been a really hard thing for me to grasp. I only come forward with the most loving and, you know, well-meaning intentions. Yeah. And unfortunately, I'm a triggerer. I definitely trigger people just in my

confrontational way of speaking. And again, I don't do that deliberately. It's just how I talk. And a lot of the way that I present myself, definitely you either love or you hate me, which has been a really hard part. I really don't like that and it makes it really hard for me to feel accepted. But the more I get older and the more I learn about myself, the more I'm like, and I think as we all do, you get to a point, don't you, where you're sort of like, if I focus on the people who don't like me, I'm never going to be able to do the good things in this world. So I've got to just change that and stop focusing on them because clearly they're triggered about something and that's their shit. But for me, in order for me to be that good

person and do the things that I want to do and impact people positively, I've got to focus on the people who can support me and want the best for me. And that's probably most importantly me. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? It's the relationship you have with yourself in the end. That is obviously the one you're going to be for you the whole of your life, whatever happens. Yeah, totally. What do you do in your life to build that relationship with yourself? Oh, it's a work in progress. You know, when your whole life and childhood was telling you

that you weren't good enough, to rewrite that narrative and to discover parts of yourself to note that you weren't good enough to rewrite that narrative and to discover parts of yourself to note that you're, you would have seen if you walked through the salon that on all the mirrors. Yeah. And it's funny, I have that on the mirrors, but it's, it's something that I'm still, I'm still struggling with to this day. I think it's something that, you know, I've got to rewrite everything that I was told when I was younger. And I'm, you know, I was saying to my psychologist the other day, oh, my God, I'm spending my entire life literally undoing the damage

of my childhood, which is so annoying because can you imagine? How amazing you would be if you didn't have to deal with all of that shit first. Totally. And that's why I got really emotional around Adelaide's birthday. We had a really beautiful day yesterday and I just started bawling my eyes out to Ben and he's like, what? I'm like, I think for the first time in three years since she's been born, I recognise the power that I have, that

this girl will have the most supported, you know, I think the generation that we came from were damaged goods. And so we were suppressed and not allowed to really flourish in our own uniqueness and authenticness. And so now we know that I'm going to give that to my daughter and allow her to be whoever she wants to be. Blue, black, you know, loud, quiet, whatever she wants to be, she can be. And I got really emotional when it was Adelaide's birthday because I got to see how she's starting to flourish under no restraints. And it's powerful. I think that's a really powerful part of being a mum. Totally how are you doing it differently to how you were raised? Totally the opposite I didn't have a mum

my mum was very much inconsistent in our lives she lost custody of us when I was five or six and we saw her randomly like every second weekend for a few years and then it got a bit dangerous and abusive so we kind of lost contact with her when I was in my teens so I didn't have a mum growing up and and when she was there in the early stages it was it was really detrimental towards my growth and who I was and so I think having a mum that's present and loving I think there's so much power in just like I love rubbing my daughter's back and loving. I think there's so much power in just, like, I love rubbing my daughter's back and just giving her that physical nurturing and, you know, I don't remember being kissed

or hugged and being told, you know, I love you. So for me, being able to be that mum to my daughter, I just, it's powerful. You're like lighting up inside when you think about it. Yeah, and it's only been sort of in the past, don't get me wrong, having a baby and being a mum, what the hell? It's so messed up. It's really hard.

It's so hard. No one, what is, you know, we were saying this before, like what is it our society has not allowed women to really understand the complexities of being a mum and how hard it is because, you know, we're in this really interesting crossroad in our, you know, development in that we're giving women so much voice and a platform. Well, women are giving women the platform to speak and wanting to be independent and strong.

But then, like, there's so much suppression on that. So, anyway, I find being a mum really challenging and I'm not naturally a good, I don't think it's naturally in my bones to be like, I'm going to be a stay-at-home mum. And I just adore my children. Oh, okay, cool, You're going to be up all night. That's okay. I am not that mum. I'm the, oh my God. This is hard. Get me out. Yeah. But isn't it about the messaging that we're told about what it means to be a woman? And I feel like once you become a mother, there's an underlying kind of quiet narrative there that you should be quiet and selfless and loving and kind of vanish into this role. And you can't still be the Hillary that has a runs her own business and is outspoken and,

you know, has a lot to give in the world aside from being a mother. Absolutely. And it's not that you don't value and completely adore your kids and want to give them the best, but society's kind of telling you that it's your role to kind of just be about them now. Absolutely. You know? Yeah. And yeah. Because I think the people who have been leading that information have come from a very different way of life. And so we're waiting for these female leaders to stand up and give us voice. We're yet to see them. So it's hard because we're really struggling. And don't get me wrong, there's lots of really amazing female leaders out there. But I think even when it comes to government and politics, you know,

who's giving us voice? You know, of course we're feeling suppressed because who speaks on behalf of mums and says, you know, this is... This is what we need. You said something so interesting before I turned the mics on, which is what always happens. No, no. No, we were just talking about how women need to be supported by the government and particularly mothers. What do you think would help us, like for women in general?

I was saying that I think that would be really, really powerful because I've seen this off the back of makeup. No one teaches us. No one empowers. I think the only sex conversation we had in school was they literally sat us down in grade four and put on a birth video and there was no pre-conversation. There was no lead up, there was no empowerment

around the female form or what it could do and it was trauma. Like as soon as we're like, that's what you're going to see and I was like, whoever designed that idea of that's how we should see birth for the first time in grade four, crazy. So I think what would be really amazing if we had some sort of like women's studies school where we actually learnt all the things about being a woman and owning all of that and being really proud of what that represents and brings to our lives. Like you said, hormones, we want to learn about hormones, about birth. About how to be in the world and what to expect so that when you get

your period, it's not a shock that your moods have changed. Or even I was speaking to Lucy Peach, who does a lot of stuff around period power, and she was saying that, and I find that too with my friends when I talk to them about their level of, like, hormones at the different times in the month. It's like a penny drops, and sometimes it's not until they're in their 30s when women learn that, well, maybe the reason you feel really great in week two is because you've got all this estrogen and you're, like, really fertile and that's the time when your hair's better and you feel more confident

and you've got all this, you know, energy. And then maybe week three you might feel more giving and loving. And suddenly, and it's cyclical, and why is it that it's not until later on that women are finding this? Imagine the power, like you were saying, for Adelaide, if she knew that from now. Absolutely. Where she's headed to even menopause. And I can see that menopause hits women in this really shocking way where there's this like gap in that knowledge of womanhood. And you were talking about

even makeup and teaching women how to do that kind of thing. If you think about every single thing and every decision that you've made, I mean, I, again, like I said, I haven't had a mum, so I've never had anyone to lead me into what birth, what to expect with birth, what to do this, everything that I've learned, I've learned off the back of my own experience or my own research. But wouldn't it be bloody amazing if someone, if you're like, if someone said to you, right, when you get your period, here are the options in which you can use. You can use tampons, you can use a menstrual cup, you can use period underwear, pads, whatever whatever wouldn't that be great if that conversation starts from and

there's not just that but all of those components you know and I think even in the way that I've seen it with makeup you know women come to me so down on themselves and angry at themselves being like I can't do my makeup you know I I look gross when I do my makeup, I stuff it up, you know, I've got really ugly hooded eyes. Well, stop. Who's taught you how to do makeup? Who's told you? And my biggest thing in my education and what I do and how I lead my business is I want women to see their own selves, their own face, not looking at someone on a tutorial with a very different facial structure and try to compare that to them. And I think that's the biggest thing I see in classes. Everyone's like, well, she looks good.

I'm like, yeah, she's 20. She's got collagen running through her veins. She's got no hooded eyes. She's not sleep deprived at night time. You know, whatever. You know, you go with hormonal acne comparing yourself to a girl, a lady with really great skin. And it's like stop comparing, start really understanding who you are,

but then also no one's ever taught you any of that or how to do any topical application of makeup no no no and it might be your older sister or what you've absorbed from the stuff you bought from Revlon totally at Priceline when you were 16 and your friends and I think our generation now the generation below us have got all these YouTube tutorials and all this wealth of knowledge that i think our generation didn't grow up with and it was all pot luck if you had a mom who understood that stuff totally but if you didn't you're left yeah sort of still doing your eyeliner the way that your 16 year old friend taught you from high school in the bathrooms absolutely and and stealing you know your friend's lip balm. I mean, none of us had

a linear way of learning. Every one of us have had to wing it, literally, you know, and I, it's been really lovely to see through my educational platform. I do a course, we're actually doing one tonight called Back to Basics. It's a masterclass where I get women to come in and we do a self-applying class where I first and foremost teach them about their face they're looking at in the mirror and then how we apply based around that. So it's the theory of makeup rather than saying, hi, here's how you do a wing. Well, no, I can do a wing a certain way

because my eye, I've got a very open lid space and I've got no hood. So I can't teach women one way of doing things because we are all exceptionally different. And that's just in a technique point of view. The other part I say very much so is not only is the physicality of your face very unique, but so is your personality. Maybe you don't like doing wings at all. Maybe you just like doing a bit of blush, you know,

like, so my education is not only about teaching you the structure of your face, but also about understanding about nurturing your authentic self in the way that you like to represent yourself through makeup. What has makeup meant to you? Makeup? I think I actually fell into makeup off the back of my own lack of self-confidence. You know, I was really overweight and I always got given this comment and I used to hate it. Oh, you've got a really pretty face, Hilary.

And I was sort of like, okay, that's the biggest backhander. Well, actually, what do the shameless girls say? It's a neg. You know, it's like. Yeah, it totally is from that horrible book that we used to, you know that book about the playbook or something and there was a guy who would go around kind of trying to pick up women. It was like a rules for picking up women.

And one of them was the neg where it's like, oh, I think she's really hot but she's got an insecurity. So I'll tell her, give her a compliment that kind of has an insecurity behind it. Wow. So then I can kind of more easily pick her up. Gosh. And it was literally, and now when I think about it, it was massive when we were 20, you know, 20s.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just a book about the patriarchy and how they break women down. That is absolutely atrocious. Isn't it? So where was the book available? Everywhere. It was sold in bookstores. Stop.

It was wild. It went everywhere. Like I remember we would have been about 25. All of my boyfriend's mates were talking about it. It was wild. It went everywhere. I remember we would have been about 25. All of my boyfriend's mates were talking about it. It was big on the radio everywhere. It was like this guy who was seen as like the king of players had written this book for how to. Yeah, it was like I remember. He would get burned alive today.

Oh, my gosh. It's so wild when you look back on it. Yeah, I remember. Clementine Ford would come for him and I would watch with like awe. With so much joy. I know there's so much when you look back on that is just so problematic. And I don't think we really understand the depth. And I talk about this, I was talking to you before about Third Eye

and in my chakra work, you know, just how much layering and complexity we have in terms of the way that everything that we've been told and everything that we've been surrounded by has layered and put every layer of grime on our personalities and on our true selves. And so it's really hard to find that because you're constantly having to go, well, that doesn't belong to me, that idea. And that doesn't belong to me. So yeah, it's a really challenging world. And it is especially for women, I think, in so many ways, because it's set up for blokes. And I know blokes also have their own difficulties, obviously,

but I think the messaging for us is so complicated. Absolutely. Because it's like you're supposed to look like you haven't tried to look beautiful, but you also have to look beautiful, you know? Absolutely. And that's why I think I'm really open on my social media. You know, I'm very aware that I, you know, I'll be really honest. From the moment I decided to become a makeup artist,

I said to myself, I'm always going to represent the women that I work with and the things that inspire me, not my personal approach to my business is I don't ever want to just put up models. I don't want to just put up the perfect version of every single thing. I think it's really dangerous. And I also think it's a really narrow view. And I think it's also not realistic. And so for me, I chose a really long time ago

to put up the women that I work with, you know, the everyday woman who's going to her husband's 50th or going to her friend's 21st or, you know, going to a graduation or whatever. I've shown all facets of the beauty that I work with. Yesterday I got up covered in spew because my son had just spewed all over me and I had, my hair was, you know, scrunchy and I had no makeup on and I had had a tough night the previous night because he was up all night and I looked like balls and I

was actually, I think that I'm like, there is no part of me that feels good right now. And that's okay because, I mean, I've had no sleep and I smell like spew and I feel gross. But there's light and shade to everything in life, you know. And today I put on some makeup and I said to my husband, you can take the kids to daycare. I'm going to feel good. And I feel worlds apart different.

And that was only two days difference, you know. It's in one day, isn't it? Because really our worth is not about what we look like. It is about the relationship we have with ourself in the moment when we're in. And I loved what you said on your site about makeup being a way for you to feel good about yourself and then to stand out in a way too. And that's complicated, isn't it? Because we know deep down that our worth is about how smart and funny and kind and interesting and

engaging we are. But there's a side of the layer out there that is saying, well, actually, as a woman, maybe your worth is more about how you look while you're doing it all. Absolutely. And how do we unpick that? But also looking and presenting yourself in a particular way is also about artistry and creativity and valuing yourself too. Exactly. I don't know where I sit. I actually just don't know where I sit with it. And I find it really complicated.

And it's okay to feel that way. Do you feel complicated? Of course. Do you find it complicating? You don't think that I ask myself every day, Hilary, you paint faces for a job. You paint faces for a job. You're telling women to put things on their face to feel good.

That's a thing that challenges me every single day. But I recognise it's my, like you said on the website, it's my vehicle to enable myself to allow women to create space for themselves, to honour themselves. Makeup doesn't have to be a full glam if it doesn't feel good for you. It could just be the fact that you're creating a ritual of sitting down or standing or however you like to apply, having a moment to say, I really love my eyes and I'm going to frame them with some mascara to really show them off because I am gorgeous and I love the color of my eyes so they're my feature or you know what my skin's dehydrated as all hell because I'm breastfeeding and I feel really hormonal and gross I'm going to sit here with my

roller my gua sha roller and my moisturizer and I'm going to massage my face for 10 minutes and give myself a break just to feel good and to allow my skin to not look like it's dead. It is amazing though because with all of the face stuff and with COVID and being mums at home and trying to balance everything, how much those rituals of putting skincare on and makeup actually does lift your mood and lift how you feel about yourself. And we should also be able to be proud of that fact.

Absolutely. That self-care is important, you know, and valuable. Well, I put an analogy up the other day. So someone, I put up a selfie of me doing my makeup and I'd obviously put up previous that day that I put up a couple of stories about me in my mum-up get-up and I looked pretty rough. And then someone DM'd me, a couple of people said me in my mum-up get-up and I looked pretty rough. And then someone DM'd me, a couple of people said some other things, but one person in particular DM'd me and said,

oh, my husband saw you, that video, and he was shocked. He said, it doesn't even look like the same person. And I got really angry because I was like, stop comparing. It doesn't matter. I don't want you to, you don't need to judge me at all. Just, just see the happiness that I have in how I feel about myself and take that as enough for you to know that I'm happy. So you can be happy. It doesn't have to be that because I have done this to myself, that it should impact the way that you feel about you. I do this and I, you know, in this particular video that I did, I put on some body foundation and so I don't fake tan. I haven't got time or cannot be bothered with the extra effort. Oh, it's cold. I also get cold when I do it and I don't fake tan. I haven't got time or cannot be bothered with the extra effort.

Oh, it's cold. I also get cold when I do it and I don't like it. I have fake tan and, yeah, I just don't do it for that reason. I'm really, I'm genuinely thinking, well, I'm thinking I'm going to get a tan to get my husband to do it because he's very methodical and I feel like it's really up his alley to do it. So I'm going to, I know, when I fake tan, oh, my God, I feel so much better about myself.

I just feel so much healthier because I'm so vitamin D deficient. And I have not seen the sun in, I don't know how long. But anyway, I think for me, makeup is always, it can be a full glam and a full coverage foundation. It could be no foundation at all. It could be moisturiser. It's not up to anyone else to decide

how you feel good in yourself. It's, I think we should be really proud of that person for giving themselves the space to feel good in themselves and to, you know, love themselves, you know, like I can't believe that our society, everyone is so quick to judge. It's a sort of like, if their intent is good and they're a good human and they're kind and they're trying to do their best, then let's all just lay off, focus on our own shit and then it's all good. Because really in the end it is also about their shit as well. It's always about their shit.

Because if someone's in that judgmental headspace of judging people for whatever choice they make about themselves, it's just another form of numbing, I guess, isn't it? Because it's not having to focus on... It's deflection. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Do you want to tell me about what that means? Well, I think, I mean, what came up recently?

Oh, so Chrissy Teigen, have you seen that, what's happened with her? So she put up, I'm good on her, she put up a story that apologised for all of the things that she had said when she was in her young self and that really resonated with me. You know, when I was young, I was, I had such a traumatic childhood and I was a really massive ball of bad mental health when I was in my teens and my twenties. And I deflected in whatever ways I could. I used to get really drunk. I used to overate all the time, still do a little bit. I judged people for their happiness, you know, and when I had a good

family, I was really angry and jealous or, you know, and when I had a good family, I was really angry and jealous or, you know, when people were in a good relationship or when people were doing really well, I became intimidated by women who were trying to do the best, you know, whatever. So I had, I was deflecting, I was constantly deflecting and I was seeking confirmation that I was enough by putting other things down. And I think that's a really common thing that people do. Like I said to you earlier, you know, when someone's shining, it's a trigger for people who aren't. You know, when people are really presenting a really amazing version of themselves that they've worked really hard to get to that point of,

it's amazing what it does to people who aren't in that positive headspace. It can really show up a lot of shit. And deflection is common with everyone. Every day I could give you examples of things that I do to deflect. And I think the most important thing we have to do is recognise when we are doing it, but also dealing with the shit in the first place that's causing it to happen. So I've worked really heavily and hard on my mental health and how I've done it. So the person that I was when I was 20 is nowhere near who I am now. What have you done? Oh my gosh. Well, I was seeing psychologists from a really young age and I used to see them for eating, my eating disorder,

she was overeating. It's an unravelling, I think, you know, like I said to you, there's a lot of layers to what's happened and what I've gone through and the hardening of my heart, I guess, and we talk about in kinesiology, you know, when you go through a lot of stuff, you harden as a person. You know, the people who have really gone through a lot, you know, like you can see some of the really rough people who have really had a tough life, you know, and tough, like really tough life, more than we could ever imagine. There is a hardness to them, there's an aggression to them. That's because they just can't get past that, you know. The most powerful thing we can do as humans is show vulnerability

and compassion and love and in moments of feeling really angry and deflecting and whatever is to turn on its head and be vulnerable and acknowledge just how sad you are, that's been my undoing, you know. So the hardness that I had probably like and the anger that I had towards the life that I'd been given and raised in, I've changed through psychologists. I had a moment six years ago of complete profound transformation. I discovered kinesiology. I worked in chakras and intuitive mentoring. So I worked with a few people that really allowed me to see all facets of it. Psychology is really hard, right? Like you go to psychologists and there's a real science behind it.

So they'll give you information. They're like, okay. So, you know, we all... Yeah, this is what trauma is. And these are the the trauma responses and then this is PTSD and how you, yeah, it's very scientific based whereas are you saying sort of kinesiology is more spiritual practice in a way or? So how it started for me was I started in intuitive mental, so I've done psychology. I always found like I over-intellectualised and I found I got to a point where I kind of felt like I was smarter than the psychologist

which that's not me being ego-y. It's just more like I couldn't get what I was getting out of the sessions. That is how I've always felt. Whenever I've gone to see a psychologist, in the end, I'm like, I could have said that better. Totally. It's annoying. And you're not picking up on the fact that I'm deflecting all your questions or whatever.

Yes. I can't handle you anymore. Don't give me the bloody book about opening my heart. I could give myself that. I Googled it already. If one more psychologist tells me about my window of tolerance and my state of arousal, I'm going to shove that state of arousal up somewhere they don't want it.

Like, yeah, it's so frustrating. So I found that. I was like, okay, cool. I'm recognising it. Yes, this is who I am, blah, blah, blah. And I think also they find that when they start picking me apart in terms of things about my personality, like whatever my incident, because I was highly criticised when I was younger,

it triggers me and I get so defensive. And if they can't see that, then for me it's like you're not on my wavelength, it's fine. So I found that I discovered intuitive mentoring and working in the chakras, which, again, I was a country girl when I discovered this and it was all very woe-woe to me, but I trusted my intuition that it was meant for me to be in this path, so I just continued with it.

I was at a party in the bush box up near Bell Reynolds and a farmer came up to me who's very spiritual and he said to me, I think you need to go see someone who works in spirituality and chakras. And I said, yeah, righto, give me your name. And he gave me the name and I went and saw that person and it was like instant love. Her name's Kat John. She works in Melbourne.

She's an intuitive mentor but works, she's a very no bullshit, like says fuck every single second word, owns all of it, but she really calls you on your shit. And what I loved about working with her was I was finally able to link behaviours and patterns and, you know, traumas to what was happening in my life. And it allowed me to kind of go, oh, and I had lots of aha moments with her. So that was really great, but it brought up a lot of stuff. And we went through every chakra once a month. I did two courses with her, one for personal and one for

business. And I found that there was a lot of energy that came from that. And I found myself like lying in bed for a week, just completely stripped. But then I discovered a Lena Pilch, who's a kinesiologist out in Kyneton, who kinesiology, if you don't know, is kind of like spiritual, but not. She works on your energy of your body. So she works in your meridians and it's all really, when I did a session with her, it was really strange. And every kinesiologist works very differently. I've seen a few over my time. So is it that you break down your body, the meridian, like the middle line, and then different parts of your body have different energies? Exactly. It's all in your body, the energy of your body and acupressure points. And there's lots of different things.

She uses a lot of essences, whether it's like flower essences or like an essential oil or whatever, and she also taps in. Elena, this is how she works, also taps in with my guides and my angels. And the work that I've done with Elena has been profound. And so what I found, like Kat stirred up all the shit and Elena came through and cleared it all away. So that combination for me plus exercise, like I'd lost, I had my weight loss surgery just prior to having all of this going on.

And I got back finally into the exercise that I was capable of doing. I think I got so big at one point that I physically couldn't do the exercises that my PT was giving me because I was so big. So getting skinnier, I became a gun. So I think the combination I've always been very strong on, we have to approach our health very holistically. It has to be physical, it has to be mental, spiritual, you know, it can't just be from one angle. I personally believe that, you know, when we tap into all the facets, we become a really great human from that. But yeah, that has been my journey with my health and it's been really powerful. But I guess since having kids it's resets it all again it's totally I'm like god damn I just did all this work and I was like an amazing supreme being and I was like completely enlightened and amazing and then I gave birth and then it's like start rebuilding your whole self from the very bottom

up absolutely I just wrote a post yeah that, that post I put up yesterday. I just said I had to completely become a new human. I had to build a new human. Like when I gave birth to Adelaide, every part of who I was was amazing and I loved it. And then I gave birth and I was like, fuck, I can't be me anymore. In order for me to be me, I can't be me anymore. Like I have to start all again. And it's been a really, I've challenged that for the past three years. And I almost think that that moment I had with Adelaide a couple of nights ago, I had this full, I was 360. I'm like, okay, I get it now.

I get the power of being a mum. But, oh, my God, it's hard. It takes a lot out of you, I think. What were your births like? Oh love I'm one of those people that I had really great births but I was adamant that I was going to have a good birth so for me I came from the belief that our bodies are meant to do this so I was going to allow my body to to do it and I wasn't going to stand in the way with it with my mental health so I was like right let's do it so I'm one of those people that I'm like okay same way that I approached my when I was like, right, let's do it. So I'm one of those people that I'm like, okay, same way that I approached my, when I was at my fully best self, I approached the same.

How can I physically do it? How can I mentally do it? How can I spiritually do it? All of the above. So I was doing yin yoga a lot to open up my hips. I was seeing a LENA kinesiologist to ensure that I was really settled in my energy. I saw Rosie from Geelong-Bourne, who is an amazing birth support, and we did hypnobirthing. So my birth with Adelaide, I went over a bit. I had to be induced, so I got all that done. But I ended up birthing her in three hours and pushed for five minutes. Wow. And I was like, I always laugh, Rosie always said in the classes, you've got to be a cat. You know, when a cat gives birth, she goes into a dark corner, into a dark room,

under a bench, and she just does her thing, or she goes under the house into a dark spot. And it's so true. Like, I turned all the lights off in the room. I told all the midwives, don't annoy me, allow me to, you know, and I'd had some really tough pain problems prior due to my weight loss surgery. So I was put into 10 out of 10 pain. And that was a really good teacher for me. So when I got put into a really extreme amount of pain, I knew that you can go two directions with pain. You can either go really high and scream, and I almost think that kind of exacerbates the pain,

or you can go really deep and really low with it, which I know sounds weird. But you get it when you give birth you get that yeah totally and so I knew with my pain I could go high or low and I knew that I wanted to go low so um for me I did hit my birthing um Ben was an incredible birth support we did made we made sure that he he wanted to be fully empowered in that moment I wanted him to be as well because he was birthing with me I know that I was doing the physical work but he had to hold me emotionally and that was really important so I did all the things and I got on all fours.

I got onto a ball and I put music on, got my meditation going. I really got really low with my energy and I went deep and it was such a, I was in a hypnotic state. I can't tell you how crazy it was. I don't remember feeling pain at all. And all of a sudden, after three hours, I started involuntarily pushing. And it was kind of funny because it ended up happening so fast that no one caught Adelaide. She fell on the floor. Oh, my gosh. But thank God there was towels underneath me and I was on my knees.

But she just, Ben was behind me and the midwives were just trying to monitor Adelaide's heart rate because she was so chill. Yeah. Anyway, so it was so funny. And Ben turned to them and said, oh, the head's out. And then he looked up to go tell them, oh, the head's out. And by the time he looked back down, Adelaide was on the floor, which was really funny. Wow.

And I was in such a deep hypnotic state. I think the thing that I was most sad about was that I wasn't in tune with where she was. I was so in tune with me. Yeah. So my goal for Obi was to be way more in touch with him and the feeling of him in me, and that was exactly what happened. He was a posterior baby. Oh, my God.

That is painful. And both the births were pain drug-free. I just felt like I kind of stupidly went in because the nurses said to me with Adelaide, oh, you'll birth really quick next time. If you were three hours on your first, you're going to throw it. You need to get to the hospital straight away. And that was almost bad that they said that because in my head I was like, I'm just going to have the best, easiest birth again.

And no two births are the same. Had I known that when I walked into Obi's birth, I would have just felt a little less cocky, I think. I was a bit cocky. Anyway, straight away I knew it was a different birth because the pain was really bad. I really struggled. And I like, I still worked with my hypnobirthing and I, cause we did a refresher course with her and with Rosie. And this time around, I couldn't birth on my knees because he was posterior. There was no position that I felt comfortable in.

So I had torn quite badly with Adelaide because she was so fast. I had no one there guiding her out and said, stop pushing. This time the obstetrician was like, we're going to slow you down a little bit. Anyway, so I was doing the old thing and then I was, I sounded like a shaman. I was like, still trying to go low with my energy. I was like, oh, like I was, I can't imagine what I, it was, would have been crazy. But I couldn't, I couldn't labour in any position but standing straight. So I had to lean on Ben for five hours.

And by the end of it, I was, my legs were cactus. I was so tired. Anyway, it was really funny towards the end of Obi's birth because the obstetrician was very adamant that he wanted me on the bed. And I just, I tried doing it and I just couldn't get into a comfortable position. Anyway, so I was standing and he said, oh, I think it's time for you, I think we're getting close, I think it's time for you to go back to the bed. And as I was walking back to the bed, I kind of was like, ah. This time around it wasn't a physical telling me that I needed to push,

it was more of an intuitive one. So I was kind of like, I'm just going to give myself a bit of a push and see what happens and out popped the head, like really quickly. And I was just standing and then then he's like stop pushing stop pushing stop pushing and I'm like what what and and he's like I said I'm stop pushing he's like oh sure as hell looks like pushing to me and um and then in that moment Obi rotated when he was inside his head was out and his body rotated and that it was the weirdest feeling that would have been crazy and in doing that what he did was prevented me from tearing. So that was really great.

Wow. So good job on the second one. I didn't have any damage then, but I gave myself a lot of damage in the weeks following. I went back to work too quickly. How soon? Well, 10 days. Wow. I just couldn't do anything.

There was nothing else I could do. COVID had destroyed my business. It was absolutely crazy. How old is Ovi now? Seven months. Seven months. And so this was like 10 days after, which was what, when we were in lockdown?

Yes, we'd just got in between. In between, yeah. And so I'd been stripped of my business. I'd went from like 15 staff down to two or three and work was non-existent. I'd closed my Geelong salon. I had a bad landlord down there who wasn't supportive of the COVID situation.

So I narrowed it all down. I had also the world's worst pregnancies. My pregnancies are really shocking. So OBO had really severe hyperemesis. Which is? What's hyperemesis? Severe vomiting all day, all night. Oh, like what Princess Kate has.

Yes. Oh, goodness. Yeah, hospitalised a number of times. Like I'd go in there for my, I'd call my tune-up, I'd go in there and get a couple of bags of fluids and leave that day. It's like Amy Schumer had that too, actually. There's an incredible doco where she shows it. It's just not documented.

No, and I was trying to be really, really, if you go onto my, I don't know if I actually said it to my stories, but I was talking about the fact that, you know, constipation is a real problem. When you have hyperemesis, they give you lots of drugs to stop the vomiting, but then you don't poo for like three weeks and that causes problems. And obviously pooing in pregnancy anyways is a problem and that's not really talked about.

So I got up on my socials and was saying, here's my poo plan. These are my drugs that I take and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I'm trying to normalise that conversation because no one told me that you don't shit. There is so much that we don't get told because it's like, oh, don't tell her, she'll be worried. Or there's just no one. It's like potluck.

Who tells you that you should go and get your chakras aligned or do hypnobirthing? Like there's just, I did the course at the hospital, which was so not helpful in so many ways. Well, it's very clinical, you know. Yeah, it's super clinical and, you know, we just, we need that course for women. I know. Couldn't agree more.

Maybe something needs to happen. But yes, I think even if someone says, hey, you might not have any issues with pooing. However, if you do have the issue, here's the physical manoeuvres that you can do to get it out. But also, here's the stuff that I would take during your pregnancy to help. This is the things that would help. Just as an FYI, would be here's the stuff that I would take during your pregnancy to help. These are the things that would help. Just as an FYI, it would be really great to see that information because had I known that, it took for me to navigate

that whole situation and a lot of traumatic situations for me to figure it out. So I did a lot of inner, I went and got physio and all the things. Anyway, so yeah, so yeah, I went to work quickly after birth and I think I really understand now why a lot of those Eastern countries are amazing because they really honor their women after they give birth by telling them to rest and be still for the month afterwards. I didn't really recognize that until, um, Obi's birth. And I did a lot of damage, um, after the birth by standing too

quickly and putting too much pressure on myself to return to work. Sorry. It was fine. It's okay now, but it involved a lot of shoving back up. Oh, so like prolapsing? Well, I prolapsed. Yeah, I got a really, really bad hemorrhoid, like really bad. Oh, mate. Thank God that's gone away. But I prolapsed a bit with Adelaide before I'm pushing really quickly with her and then it just came out a little bit more with Obi

because I was pushing so, because I pushed really hard and I think that's probably obviously as well from the poo situation. Anyway. It's the whole thing. We could go down a little bit. But I think like another of my friends has given birth recently and she's had all these complications I'd never heard of and I feel like so often women in my life come up a cropper

because the friend of theirs that they've been asking for advice or talking to with has never had the same problem as them. It's like my son had a lot of reflux issues and no one had any solutions to me because no one else in my life had those issues. So then you become this crazy woman just Googling things at 3am being like we're on these forums trying to find information. Because you're upset and you're feeling really isolated and alone and it further triggers your postnatal.

It's really tough. Exactly. We're having huge issues with Obi at the moment, who's been power spewing since four months old. And only through my insistence has he gone and got tests. We can't find any answers yet, but it's still happening. You know, he's on reflex medication and we've changed his formula and we've done all the basic things, but, like,

the kid power spews all day, every day. But there's no one there going, I'm going to advocate, or here's 10 scenarios from a spewer that we can tell you that these 10 scenarios, there's probably most definitely 90% a chance that he's one of these scenarios. So go through and tick off what it won't be. Okay, cool, we know it's not reflux, we know it's not dairy because he's now on rice.

Yeah, I have so much. I'll tell you off pod, so much information because we had the exact same thing. I don't need all the information because no one else is telling me. Like it's crazy. No one's. It's great and they didn't have the answers for us. It took us, I reckon it took us six, maybe a year to actually get proper answers. And it's been different for different friends of mine too.

So it is so hard. I think that's part of the problem and also maybe part of the solution that we need as women to be our own heroes. Absolutely. We need to advocate. We need to advocate so that our daughters can come into the world in 30 years time and they're not wondering where the information is because it's just there for them.

It's there, but we need, this is where I'm being really sort of loud in, and obviously I can't, it's annoying because I can't be that person to a large group. We need more louder leaders. We need people who can represent us in areas that will create change. And at the moment, there is no change being created.

We've got a lot of noise going on at the moment, but where is that funnelling? Where is this information funnelling to and where's it getting to like I know it's a hitting a seat like a glass ceiling absolutely it's genuinely hitting deaf ears because they don't have because they're old men yeah without any life experience or or ability like they're parenting through facetime like remember our prime minister Scott Morrison it still drives me insane was being interviewed about how he manages because he's got young kids and he's like, oh, well I FaceTime them all the time.

Like that's not parenting. That's not parenting. So how can you be possibly able to understand what women and children need on a nationwide level if you are not present? Because he's not a modern dad, you know. Like my husband is an incredible guy. He's a very modern co-parenting father who would advocate for all of these changes because they directly impact him as well.

But why would Scott Morrison advocate for something that doesn't impact him because he's not a parent? Exactly. It's the same with childcare, isn't it? Absolutely. Well, don't get me started on childcare. I had to go live with that because we're at a threshold. We're paying $750 a week in childcare.

So this is the other thing that I was talking about with being a mum. No one talks about this either. I'm currently, I've just come off JobKeeper. I don't have any income streams because the government shut me down. I'm not legally allowed to work in Melbourne at the moment. I've got no streams of avenue. I can't give up my children's places in daycare because I'll lose them and I won't be able to get in again. They're only in, Obie's in three days a week and Adelaide's in four days a week and we're paying $750 a week in childcare because we've hit the threshold because there's no support for women to return back to work. And I know from my work in doing women's makeup and the conversations I have

on social media with people, so many women returning to work are either working for free, losing money a week or working for $10 a day because all their income is going towards paying for childcare. So the only reason why they're returning to work and working for free essentially is to maintain their careers. My God, which is insane. Which is insane. That's insane.

And the biggest thing that I think that needs to come from any of these conversations is where is the advocacy for women to return to work? We need women to return to work. Women are holding up the economy in the way that we are, you know, the biggest spenders. We make the decisions in the house with where the money goes, you know, like. And who were the workers who were essential?

So often it was the teachers who are predominantly women, the nursing staff who are predominantly women as well, you know, even the cleaners, people who are cleaning houses and cleaning facilities to make sure that we're safe. You know, like the workers who are working in aged care homes, predominantly women. Exactly. You know, we're the essential services.

The childcare workers, essential services, and we get paid shit wages. Don't get me started. I feel so sorry for childcare workers. I know. They are doing an incredible job. They are working so hard and not even in the childcare that we send, like the ones I send our children to,

genuinely have feelings and love for our children and they are being paid an absolute pittance and not being supported. And what happens when we don't support these people in these key areas? What happens? You tell me, Scott Morrison, who's looking after your children? Yeah, exactly, exactly. But he's got, the problem is the politicians making the decisions have very prescribed privilege and also very traditional roles where the only way that you can really be a male politician and married with kids is if your wife doesn't work and is looking

after the household. There's really no other way to do it because six months of the year in Australia, they have to be in Parliament House. Yeah. And so you really need a partner who's going to do all of the other life admin stuff. And there's nothing wrong with that. Like, you know, I think- And absolutely, is it? No, everyone's roles are different.

Absolutely. That's not what this is about. No, not at all. But it's interesting where we see someone like Jacinta Ardern, whose partner has to be that supporter, has to be that co-parent. But however, because she's in that forefront with that co-parenting in a modern relationship, she's able to present way more newer, like things that really impact us on a day-to-day level.

We've got to protect this generation. We've got to protect our generation because we're going to be the ones making the key decisions in the next 10, 15, 20 years. And right now, you're not going to have many people out there doing them because we've all just given up. And I think also it's really important for kids to see equal partners in however that looks and so that you're both happy and, well, maybe even happy is the wrong word, but contented and feel valued within your family structure and are a person

that isn't selfless in that you've vanished and lost yourself. So you're being mothered, like our kids aren't being mothered by someone who's vacant and has low self-esteem. Like there's nothing more amazing than when, I mean, I'm so proud of my husband who couldn't be my biggest, he's the biggest supporter supporter and I'm so excited our children to be able to see that they've got a really strong ass mum who's going out there and having a crack in this world but also the beautiful delicateness of my husband and the way that he loves and supports and nourishes that it's beautiful it's not about one being you know dominant or one being bigger or better it's equality and I say yin and yang with my husband all the time. We're perfect.

We're very different, but we work perfectly together. And how does that, does he enable you then to run your business in that way? Having him there as your support? The kid is just ridiculous. Like I always say to him, you need to run a, you need to run a husband's school because he, you've never met anyone. Everyone calls him Gentle Ben. He's the breadwinner in the relationship still with where I was going with the business and growing it. I was still in growth phase and I wasn't really taking much of an income as any small business owner would understand.

So he still is the breadwinner given that COVID stripped me bare and we'll get there. But at the moment, he's the main breadwinner. However, he's the one lucky at the moment he's working from home with COVID but he not only does he do like he did drop off today he he woke up in the middle of the night to do the feeds because I said to him like he said oh you've got master class tomorrow night Hillary I'll do the night overnight feed if Obi wakes up or cries does that he cooks and cleans you know tonight I won't be home he'll do all that but more importantly,

aside from all the day-to-day operations in our family, he's my biggest supporter. He wants to see the best in me. And I think we all have our own personalities and he's really content in the way that he lives his life. And I support that. You know, he's not much of a go out and party or much of a socialiser. And I nurture that as much as I can. It's really hard for me to be with someone that's really quiet, but actually it works perfectly because he really, I always say that I love a man that can hold a woman. Yeah, and isn't threatened by that. And I'm so lucky my husband is exactly the same. And there's a line in Annabelle Crabb's book about that,

that she did a quarterly essay about women choosing who they marry. Yeah. And it really directly affects where they'll be in their life and how they'll be able to be successful in their career, who they marry, which sounds so traditional. But I really believe that. And I think it works both ways as well in terms of a man as well and needing things from a relationship.

You want it to be equal. But, yeah, James is like exactly the biggest supporter. Anything I want to try, he's like, you go for it. It's really awesome. And not threatened by me wanting to have my own life. There's something very sexy about a man. Isn't it? Oh, my God.

Ben could look like a, I don't know, bloody half-chewed hot dog and I couldn't find a man more sexy. That's a man to me, someone who can cry, someone who can say, you know, his communication skills are amazing. We had a bit of a fight at dinner last night, nothing massive, but it was a sort of like, and he said, no, let's talk about it, Hilary, like what's going on. And fuck that sexy. Someone who's not intimidated, that can own his vulnerability, that can show his, you know, nurturing side. And loves his kids and his present, not just in a, I'm a fun dad, I'm going to throw a ball around,

but in a what do they need. Absolutely. And I'm there and I know how much milk goes in the bottle and how much water ratio if you're formula feeding or, you know, that kind of stuff. Like Hilary, Obi's got thrush at the moment, which we've never had, and he's like, oh, just letting you know, we've run out of the hyperazole, can you just get some of that? And he's across all of it, you know. And the. And he's like, oh, just letting you know, we've run out of the hyperazole. Can you just get some of that?

And he's across all of it, you know. And the other day he's like, oh, I just did a bonds order for Obi because he's getting out of his, you know, three to six months and he's moving into his, you know, bigger size. So I want to go, I want to go to some bonds for him. I'm like, okay. Oh, my God. Like he's.

It makes so much difference. And it's, it's, it shows me. And what I'm really excited about is having had Obi. I'm really excited about the man that I get to create with Ben because there needs to be more Bens in the world, I think. There needs to be more men who are willing to own their vulnerability and not even in traditional roles. You know, I've got a lot of friends that are in same-sex relationships

and it's all about balance. It doesn't matter who's more dominant, who's not, or maybe they're the same or whatever. Like it has to be in how does a family function healthily, and it's when the person is most supported in their authentic self. Do you think that the way that you've worked on that relationship with Ben is down to communication? Oh, huge, huge component of it.

Because it's not just an accident that you've got that relationship now, do you think? We just had our seventh anniversary, and we've been together for 14 years and we had a really dysfunctional relationship to start with. I brought, when I was 23, and I brought all of my trauma into our relationship and I was a really shit girlfriend for a really long time. A part of his qualities, he's very loyal and he's very unwavering. He's committed.

When he comes in, he's like, I'm going to make this work. And it's without that we wouldn't have survived. And I think what got us through was I knew that he needed something better. He needed me to step up in order to, I needed to be the partner that he deserved. He allowed me the space to work on my stuff. So he allowed me to be selfish, to really go deep in myself. And he still does. he's like hello go have the night off and go say go go away for a night so you can have some time to yourself or because we work very differently he drives his energy from within and I drive my energy from without you know outside yeah being with people and yeah extrovert yeah it's so interesting that my partner is exactly the same I get energy from being around people which is why COVID is so

difficult oh absolutely yeah he's loving COVID. He's so happy. He's like, I just want to hang out with you all. I'm like, fuck off. I need to talk to someone about stuff. I need to talk to someone. Yes. Yeah, and part of it is like being in clothes and putting makeup on

because that's you. Totally. Expression. Yeah, being out there and being in the world is what gives you identity or me identity too. Absolutely, yeah. Probably has been hard for a lot of girls I think or just the people who need to get out and do that.

And we also need, that's where we're lacking that energy because there's no bouncing of that energy around because everyone's at the moment, everyone's introverted really. Yes, exactly. And if you're not, you're kind of being forced to become introverted and then if you're not someone who gets energy from that, the energy kind of spirals down and down and down and down and down to be like through the floor.

Oh, God, it's so mean. We're on the other end of the earth. Yeah, yeah, correct, exactly. Now, we've been talking for ages and I just so value your time and your wisdom because you have so much to share and I've just loved it so much. Thank you. And absolutely a pleasure. Yeah, I wanted to finish just by asking you where to next with Hilary. Well, that's a very good question actually. So I'm on the precipice of finally

reaching what my end game has been for my career in terms of where I really wanted to be. When I started behind my makeup artist, I was in science and I realised that I needed to follow my passion piece, which was makeup. I was really concerned about it not being a career and I didn't want to be a six-year-old makeup artist doing dead makeup. And I said to myself, I'll get into makeup if there's a career in it, a long-term business career. And so I've always wanted to have my own makeup line. I realised after a few years of being a makeup artist, there's a very big hole in the way that we are not listening to women and we're not educating women about how they want to feel in themselves

and the way they want to represent themselves through their own beauty routine. And for me, I am all about performance makeup, so I'm all about makeup lasting because who can be bothered reapplying? I want it to look good, feel good, you know, be luxurious, the best quality, full of all the good stuff. And I also want it to perform and be amazing. But I want it to also stand for something.

So I said to myself, I really want to do a makeup line. And it's launching at the end of this year, which is really exciting. It's taken me 18 months to develop the first product. I'm going to take it slow, one product at a time. But I'm so beyond excited because this is going to be transformative in the beauty world in the way that I think it's finally a product that speaks for women rather than dictating to women what they should be doing and wearing and how they should wear it.

I want women to use their voice to say what they want and I want products out there from the brand to support that. So, yeah, we're in the final stages of development with the first product and can't wait. Oh, I'm so excited to try it. As someone who is very much a beauty novice, what are the things that, like the big mistakes that people make and maybe what they could do to fix them?

I'm really, I think off the back of what we've talked about, the fact that you've never been taught anything, I don't think there's a mistake that you've made because it's a mistake if you knew the right way to begin with. I think that you've just been doing what works for you and you know what, good on you. I'm really proud of the fact that you've gotten through life having no idea what you're doing

and still feeling good in yourself when you give yourself the time. So I think the mistake is probably in that women aren't allowing themselves the time to learn. They're not allowing themselves the time to feel good and they're giving themselves excuses as to why they can't. Because there's something wrong with them or they just aren't good enough. I'm too tired. I don't have time. Actually, if you give yourself the time to learn yourself, learn your makeup learn what makes you feel good you know what works for you then you'll shine and when you are in that centered space of really owning all of who you are and backing yourself entirely with or without makeup

that is pure beauty that is beautiful that is stunning A woman in that zone is the most stunning human ever. And it's nothing to do with what she physically looks like. It's the radiance, like that really comes out. You know what I mean? When you see that woman who really owns all of herself in that confidence, there is something that's just incredible. So that's, I don't think it's ever a mistake that a woman can make with their beauty routine. I think the biggest thing she needs to give herself the the opportunity. No excuses. You know, own it. Give yourself time.

Give yourself room in your life to build that relationship with you. Yeah. My hashtag is back your beauty and it's very, very true. You've got to back yourself. You know, in everything that I've done, in all of the crap that I've gone through, in all of the lessons and the hardships, the only reason I've survived is because I decided that I needed to get out of it, I needed to back myself,

that no one else was going to be doing that for me and it translates in everything that I do and I think that if women back themselves in all that they are, like, that's power. That's the limit. Yeah. And what a gift to be able to give that to your kids. Oh, I can't wait.

I know. I know. They're really cute. I'm really excited to be the mum and the parent that every child deserves to have. Well, they're very lucky kids. As is Ben. As are we. Thank you so much, Hilary.

Yeah, I can't wait to see what's coming next. Hang on. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with makeup artist Hilary Holmes. You can find more from Hilary on Instagram, at Hilary Holmes Makeup.

Thank you as always to Roar Collings for editing this week's episode. And if you'd like to follow along, I have a weekly-ish newsletter that comes out most Fridays, which you can subscribe to in my bio or in the show notes. And I'd love you to leave a review and a rating, just like HL Mum has. Funny and smart. I'm loving the pod taunts. I find myself saying yes out loud all the time. Thanks for your great work. Thanks, mate. And if you'd like your review read out on the show, just pop one in for us. That would be so lovely. And if

you think someone you know might appreciate this episode, please share it with them. That's the best way to get this show out there. And it really makes a massive difference to me. Okay. That's it for me this week. Sending you lots of love and talk to you soon.