TONTS. - Bluey with Mary Bolling

Episode Date: March 4, 2024

In a very special episode of TONTS. I deep dive into the wonderful world of Bluey podcast with Bluey expert and podcast host Mary Bolling. Mary is a journalist, mum and kids culture enthusiast, and one half of the Gotta Be Done podcast, deep-diving Australian juggernaut Bluey (and parenting, pop culture and everything else!) since 2019. In typical TONTS. and Bluey fashion we talk about the themes in Bluey that so closely match our own experiences. Two mums deep diving into the highs and lows of parenting, grief, loss, miscarriage, the power of story and the vital role of play and silliness. What a joy!You can find more from Mary Bolling on instagram at https://www.instagram.com/marytbolling/ and listen to her podcast Gotta Be Done here https://www.blueypod.comhttps://www.clairetonti.comhttps://www.instagram.com/clairetonti/You can contact the show at [e-mail]: RAW CollingsSocial Media: Maisie JG Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak and write today. The Rwandan people of the Kulin Nation. And pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been ceded. Just before we begin, a little heads up, we do discuss themes of miscarriage, grief and loss in this episode. If that brings anything up for you at all, please contact Lifeline or you can also speak to someone you trust. All right, on with the show.

Hello, this is Tons, a podcast of in-depth interviews about emotions and the way they shape our lives. My name is Claire Tonti and I am so glad you're here. Each week, I speak to women in diverse voices about their stories, activists, writers, creatives, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans. We're going to deep dive into the strange, the rare, the curious, the magic. And this week, I have a quote for you that you might recognize. As you grow up, you'll face harder things than a cricket ball, and you'll have two choices, back away and get out or step in front and play a pool shot. Just keep your eye on the ball and keep an eye on your little sister for me.

I wonder if you knew or recognized what that was from. Today, I'm talking about the wonderful TV show, Bluey. But more than that, I'm going to be talking about an incredible person called Mary Bowling, and you're going to meet her in a moment. Before I introduce her and her incredible podcast, Gotta Be Done, I'm just going to tell you a little bit more about this glorious TV show Bluey and a little bit of its history, just in case you haven't heard of this worldwide phenomenon. Bluey is an inexhaustible six-year-old blue heeler dog who loves to play and turns everyday family life into extraordinary adventures, developing her imagination as well as her mental, physical,

and emotional resilience. Bluey is built around imaginative games led by the titular six-year-old and her four-year-old sister, Bingo. Dad Bandit and Mum Chili are regularly roped in with near infinite patience for familiar wails of play with us and or again. The cartoon family of Cattle Dogs has earned Brisbane-based creators Joe Brum a Logie, an Emmy and squeals of delight whenever the distinctive theme song floats across the lounge room. And it's just so adored in our house. My kids love it so much. What I didn't realize was how much thought and research has gone into each episode. And more than that, the curious story

of Mary Bowling and how she came to be creating a recap show that took off incredibly five years ago when she first started making it. I'll let her tell more of that story, but let me tell you a little bit more about Mary Bowling. Mary Bowling is a journalist, a mom of two boys, five and seven, and a kids culture enthusiast. She also hosts Gotta Be Done podcast with her friend, Kate McMahon, where the two deep dive into this glorious show. Other things to know about Mary as well is that she used to be in roller derby. And the thing I love the most about her is her joy and her creativity. Mary talks in this episode about her struggles with miscarriage and pregnancy loss. She talks about motherhood and that transition, about being a creative and a podcaster and her journey

through Bluey with the themes that are current for so many of us because so much of what is in Bluey is actually what we are living all of the time. We talk about in real detail what makes this show so special. We discuss our favorite episodes and our favorite themes. We look at the deep research behind it, talk about what it was like to interview the creator Jo Brum. We talk about what it's like for her to actually be a voice in the Blu-ray universe with her friend Kate, which I just loved so much. Aside from that, this is a real, raw, honest conversation between two mums trying to figure

out how to do it. I think the biggest takeaway I had from this conversation, more than the fact that I immediately felt like I met an old friend in Mary and she actually lives in our community, which is wild, is that we need to rediscover that sense of play and silliness and wonder and joy that I think so much of adulthood kind of stamps out of us, particularly in that tricky transition through matrescence. And even as someone as joyful as Mary, who was, you know, playing in roller derby before she had kids, needed reminding of that fact. And that's what Bluey gifts us. The reminder that actually parenting is more about that sense of silliness and joy

and connection and what that actually can look like in your house day to day. I think we seem to know the power of play, but what Bluey does so well is model it for us in beautiful seven-minute gorgeous episodes with an extraordinary score underneath it. Anyway, here she is. Can't wait to tell you more about Mary or she'll tell you more about her story here. Off we go. Mary Bowling. Yeah, it's not just a blue, like I don't know what it is.

It's just, yes, middle age maybe? Oh, God. Why is middle age so teary? It's weird. It's like a middle age, midlife unraveling. That's how I feel. I saw a Brene Brown clip the other day that was just that, this idea that you hit middle age and it's like, whoa, what the bloody hell's happened. But I think it's a perimenopause thing. Yeah, possibly. We've

only just met. Look, yeah, no, I think that's something that is definitely around. Do you think it's not? I know. Do you think it's also just starting to understand the fragility of things? Like, yeah, putting kids out into the world a bit more. Yeah, I think so. But, yes, also, you know, realising that perimenopause is, you know, you spend all your teens, 20s just ignoring every health kind of consideration and like, oh, this one I might have to take seriously.

This is so rude. Yeah, right. I know. But I think that's for women in general. Yes. There's so much for us that we don't understand about our own bodies and even birth and all of that. I think we're so deeply unprepared for what that was going to be like.

Yeah. Do you want to tell us a little bit about your family? So just like how many kids you've got and what's your life like? Yeah. So yes, I have a family and I have two little boys who are seven and five. And yeah, that feels, I'm the oldest of seven. So I guess having kids was something that was always on my radar. And yeah, when they finally arrived and it was quite a mission to start family life for us as well, it felt like really hitting the ground running in a way, because, well, obviously you're looking after a kid 24-7, so it's go, go, go. But also having

had so many brothers and sisters and, you know, always being in that family environment, I felt like, okay, well, I know how to do the kids stuff, but maybe it took a while to know how to do the emotional stuff or hadn't really, wasn't something I'd given a lot of thought. Yeah. It's, it's, well, it hit me like a ton of bricks, the whole thing with motherhood, completely. So when you say it was a mission, did you have a lot of sort of struggles in that road? Look, I've had a couple big miscarriages before we then had the boys. And it was at a time when, I'm a Victorian kid originally, but had been living up in Queensland with my husband.

And yeah, especially the first miscarriage, I was already, you know, I think I was about 16 weeks. So past that time of telling everyone, you know, the real excitement kind of was already there. And it was, I was playing roller derby at the time, which sounds very not relevant to then, you know, how you manage a miscarriage. But yeah, I wasn't, I'd had to, you know, sit out of a tournament because I was pregnant and then, you know, because of that, hundreds of people knew I was pregnant and then you had to let hundreds of people know, oh, by the way, yep, that's not a thing anymore.

So, yeah, it did feel like even though, you know, you put one foot in front of the other and I felt like I grieved and then moved on. Yeah, once the kids arrived, I was like, wow, that was really big, losing that baby and, you know, that just stop that was put on plans and life and, yeah, looking back now, like, okay, yeah, that was kind of the first sign of in parenting, there's a lot of things you can't control.

Hugely. I'm so sorry. I've had one too. And I, it's, I feel like our culture doesn't talk about it in a way that prepares you. Did you feel even physically underprepared? Oh, complete. Yeah. It happened on a weekend and I knew I was miscarrying and that was painful and messy. And I rang the hospital that I was meant to be giving birth at and got a very abrupt kind of, oh, yes, you're having a miscarriage. There's nothing you can do about it. Just come in on Monday. I'm like, right, okay.

So, yeah, I wasn't ready. Well, you're never ready, of course, but the way my body felt then having to have a sweep, like it's, I guess I hadn't known anyone closely who'd had a miscarriage before and just the procedure around it and how it's very medicalised as well, didn't feel like it was kind of what I needed at the time. But yeah, the amount, there wasn't a lot of care around that. But what I did find was because I eventually let most people know via Facebook, got a Facebook post because, yeah, you've got to, you know, I wanted to get the message out there and also acknowledge it kind of for myself.

So many public comments but also friends and people I'd know from, you know, all aspects of life, getting in touch in the chat as well and saying, look, it's happened to me, it's so hard here for you. And yeah, that sort of made me, you know, you see the stat of one in four, but it was that experience that put it well. People carry a lot and so often they're carrying it privately. So true. And I think as well when it comes to miscarriage and then also stillbirth as well, that and it's all kind of seems to me when I can see it in a more zoomed out lens, part and parcel of bringing kids

into the world and bringing life into the world. And for most, I mean, women and also people who give birth, I have this lyric in a new song. It's like the wild plane that women exist on. And I didn't know about that wild plane until I gave birth. And you're something like, what the actual fuck is going on with my body and myself and my emotions, which I guess is what matrescence is all about, right?

Even the physicality and the violence for me of a miscarriage was really, we've gone real dark, real deep, real quick. But I think important to discuss because it's part of our story and part of it all. And I guess that kind of brings me to that episode onesie of Bluey, because we'll talk about your story and how you've created this extraordinary podcast. But I've written down onesie because it has those themes, fertility, pregnancy, loss, and grief. And Brandy is played by Rose Byrne, who's just one of my favorite actresses. Oh my God. Bridesmaids and all. She's just extraordinary. What does that episode mean to you? Yeah, completely. It's so beautifully done. And I think so often people always want to share a story with a happy ending, right? So, you know, and that was so many of those

women, for instance, who got in touch with me after my miscarriage, like, but, you know, hang in there. I've got my kid, my baby now. And, and yeah, what I wasn't hearing from was women who were like, yeah, it's happened to me and now I don't have a baby and I'm still trying or I'm still waiting. And yeah, that is a heartbreaking story to tell because it doesn't have that happy ending. We're so geared to wanting that happy ending. This episode, like how brave can you be to, okay, well, let's talk about not getting that happy ending and the acceptance and how you deal with, you know, the family friction around that and put it in a seven-minute kids' show. I know.

That is also really beautiful to watch for the kids and they kind of absorb it in a totally different way and yet we're all sobbing. Yeah, oh, man. Yeah, definitely. There's women and family members in my life who are in that brandy situation and have been able to watch that episode and relate and cry. But, yeah, I guess, you know, they've gotten to their,

they're working through their journey of acceptance and I think, you know, it's affirming to see it. And I certainly had, you know, when I, like after a second miscarriage, you have all those catastrophizing thoughts of, well, you know, if I'm not a mother, what am I going to be? Or, you know, I consider myself a mother at that point and a mother in mourning. But, yeah, it's a story that needs telling.

And we're terrible at telling so many aspects of motherhood, but the wanting of a mother is one that I think is a nut that we might have cracked, but, yeah, I don't see it. Very much, right. It's like that deep longing that's almost biological. You can't quite wrap your head around it. Even I feel like on Mother's Day, there's a beautiful post where they sort of share for those who would love to be mothers and aren't mothers or those who loved and lost or have

complex relationships with their mothers. But that idea that maybe you just actually haven't found the right partner and you get to a certain point where it's no longer possible for you to have kids or physically you can't for whatever reason. And I mean, there's just so many reasons why people might have that deep learning and not be able to and the complexity around that or choose not to for different reasons, even to do with our planet. You know, there's just like a thousand different ways. And I love Liz Gilbert talks about how you can be a mother, but not have children. You can be mothering a creative project or other people's kids. You can be that, you know, have that relationship with them, but it's, it is different. And I wonder too, just how honest we are about it. Cause the other part about it is you can have that deep longing and then it actually happens and you can go, what the actual fuck's happened to my life?

What the hell am I in? Was this the right decision? Or, you know, there's so many shades to it. It's such a messy middle. Yeah, it's been funny off the back of that episode. Funny, you know, a reflection on how we all think and operate that is part of my very important role. I am a member of so many bluey Facebook groups.

I love that. And that, you know, they go from everything from, you know, theorising about the drug habits of some of the parents to, you know, planning love lives for when the pups are grown up. And, yeah, bluey is my first foray into a fandom. It's mind-blowing, yeah, how deep a fandom can get. Yeah. But, yeah, it's a comment you see come up again and again.

I'd love to see an episode where Brandy adopts or I'd love to see an episode where Brandy, you know, gets hooked up with the cousin and then they get their baby. And, you know, everyone's trying to – Wrap it up in a bow. Yeah, it's a happy ending. And it just, yeah, really reiterates, wow, we, there are a lot of not happy endings out there and we're so conditioned to just expect it from all our fiction and entertainment and everything that, yeah, it's a good reminder that we can take a step back and maybe be comfortable in that really horrible kind of,

it's not always a happy ending. And that's, you know, that's beyond parenting. There's so many situations where, you know, a death that you can't come to peace with. Totally. And that's life too. It's trying to accept what is unacceptable. And I guess that's also the

idea of happiness is fleeting too, right? Like we all think we just will have this happy ending because I think when we were kids, we were watching shows that always kind of wrapped up with a happy ever after. And actually that's, it's so beautiful to be watching a generation of kids watch shows with these kind of complex ideas within them. And you wonder as they grow and look back on them them what they'll learn. I think that in itself is so beautiful. Just before I move on, I have another question. Did you do anything to mark your miscarriages in grief?

Did you have any kind of ceremony? Yeah, a Facebook post at the time. Yeah, I think that's brave and radical. I actually think that's radical and important. Look, it's completely not for everyone. I'm an oversharer on Facebook from way back. Welcome to the Oversharers Club. Tom's is a safe space.

This is where we're at. You know, it was actually once I'd had the boys and was up to a conversation with them, and this is going to sound so bad on my husband, but I'd carried names that that I, you know, we weren't even advanced enough to know if they were boys or girls, but in my heart, you know, I'd named these kids. And it wasn't something I'd even discussed with my husband, which probably reflects, oh, you just, you know,

you put one foot in front of the other and you harden up and that's not how I want to be, but it's definitely how I've been conditioned to be. So, yeah, it was only once my kids were at an age where they could, like, have conversations about, oh, well, you know, what life was like for us before they were born and things like that. And they're so interested that, yeah, me and my husband had that conversation with them that we'd lost these kids

and they had so many questions to ask. And, yeah, that was when I said the names out loud. And to me, yeah, that was them knowing about them and like other people carrying that was closure. Yeah. Yeah. Do you mind sharing their names or you don't touch them? No.

So, yeah, my first miscarriage, her name's Tess and Sebastian. Oh, that's so beautiful. Yeah, which I don't know if that's common or done and, like, you know, you don't want to go deep into a Google hole around grief as well. Like how did you approach it? Yeah, I was so shocked by it because it was my – so I had my son and I had the miscarriage when he was two. So I was actually triplets as well. And it was at 10 weeks. So it was quite early,

but I miscarried at home. So it was a really intense experience. I ended up passing out in an ambulance. So I went into labor actually, which I hadn't, I was booked in to have a DNC and then just went into spontaneous what felt to me like labour because I'd been in labour with my son. So it was a really intense experience and quite shocking in it. It felt quite violent to me, almost quite animalistic, which is a strange thing to say. But I guess I say that because I feel like I was so underprepared

for the intensity of it. I was told by other sort of medical professionals, it'll be like a bad period. And it just is not like that at all. It was not like that for me at all. And so going through that and then having, my husband was amazing and my mom like almost flew from home to be with our son so he could go in the ambulance with me. But because I was so shocked by it, I just didn't know what to do. I didn't have any ritual around it. I didn't know what I was doing.

I didn't have any names. I was shocked. I didn't know it was triplets until afterwards. So a really dear friend of mine actually gave me this beautiful garden hanging with three birds and that she said you can hang that in your garden to mark it. And at the time I was so out of my body and so traumatized that I just I couldn't do it I couldn't hang it anywhere I felt I just couldn't and I didn't market with anything and it's only now I've got them hanging in my garden and that's what like six years so and I actually did create a little mini podcast

episode about it and I sang a song and just put it out. I just, I'd only released like two episodes of my first show, Just Make a Thing. And then I, I literally just recorded this thing when I got back from hospital and just put it out. I don't know why I did that. Cause really it was so fragile and I've taken it down since because now I look back and think that was a woman who I wanted to share it because I felt like people weren't talking about it and I wanted it to be marked and to know that it was there. And on the new record I'm making, I've written a song about it, which I am going to put out, I think.

I don't know. Courage, swallow and hopefully, you know, I can do it. But yeah, I didn't at the time because I, and I feel like we need more ritual. I think how glorious that you were able to do that and give them like Tess and Sebastian, give them names because I know a friend of mine, she names her, she named her baby, she's from South America and named her baby before her baby was born. And it's a real tradition there where people talk to the baby and give it a name and then that allows you, it almost legitimises your feeling of loss and grief.

It's true actually, yeah. So I think that's really powerful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that story. Thank you. Oh, my God. I think the conversation is changing though. I don't know if last year you read Isabel Odeberg's book,

Hard to Bear, that was about she's a Melbourne journalist and it was about her experience of miscarriage after miscarriage. It's hard to bear and hard to read, to be honest, but she's done that kind of scientific journalistic approach to, well, how do different cultures do it and how, you know, how does the medical system handle it or not handle it as the case may be. But in that book, she actually reached out to the creators of Bluey to ask about another episode that just hints at that Bandit and Chili might've had a miscarriage. And yeah, the Joe

Brum, the creator came back to her with like a written kind of story of, yeah, why he chose to tackle that topic and what it meant to him. And, yeah, it's in the book and it's very beautiful to read. Oh, I'm going to definitely have to read that. I love actually because you're a big reader. I'm a big carrier of books. Me too. Like I have so many on my bedside table. I call it like the unicorn version of me.

That would be it. But, yeah, I did see you read one that I thought was so beautiful called The Last Love Note. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Have you read it? No, I haven't, but it's on my list now because it deals with loss

and then Alzheimer's as well. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm so stoked because I know you lost your grandmother But it's on my list now because it deals with loss and then Alzheimer's as well. Yeah, and I'm so sorry because I know you lost your grandmother and I know we're really deep diving in grief and, like, we are going to get into some fun stuff and I want to ask you more about Roland. It's like the grief to work through before we, yeah. Yeah, it is, absolutely. But one of the themes in Bluey that I love so much is the grandparents that come through so strongly.

There's that beautiful grannies and the way that Bingo and Bluey kind of embody these grannies, which is so beautiful, and the relationship between them and their grandparents. And then that episode, Grandad. Yes. It's so special. Exactly. Do you want to talk into that theme of Bluey?

Completely because it is beautiful and, you know, having done the podcast for five years moving into Joe Brum a few times like it's obvious that family just means so much to him but yeah I grew up in regional Victoria and my grandparents were in Melbourne and especially my mum's mum and dad were just like mythical level grandparents. You know, Mum had so many stories about their adventures growing up and then that sort of rolled on to how us kids saw them and my grandparents had seven kids as well. And, yeah, then I'm one of seven as well.

So, yes, there's some big generations going on. But, yeah, I think, you know, I didn't appreciate, like my grandparents were very much book people. They ran a bookshop and it was a Catholic bookshop. So not, not the, not the most diverse range of reading, but, but, you know, they were always reading and always get the grandkids gathered around and be like, okay, so look, this is a book of poetry. If you can learn one of these poems, we'll give you $5. And it just sounds somewhat mercenary, but it was really a way that I early on connected with poetry and also was like up for a challenge

and we were all like memorising poetry as we wandered around their backyard, you know, picking passion fruits and baby tomatoes. And it sounds very idyllic looking back, but I realise now that they were just both storytellers and everything was built around sitting at the table and having a cuppa and, you know, regaling with stories. And that's, yeah, that's probably the biggest part of me that's connected to family. And that's why I've connected so hard to Bluey as well because I'm like, wow, like the stories they pack into seven minutes.

I'm like, I am not telling enough stories in my life because this, you know, look at the standard being set here. So, yeah, and my grandma died with Alzheimer's last year and Pa had died just before I got pregnant with Bon, my eldest, and he's seven now and he'd had Alzheimer's too. So, yeah, Alzheimer's and kind of that experience of trying to keep the stories going, even though that person's losing them in their head. Like, you know, my grandma had a great line, you know, as we kind of even once she was in a home and bed bound, she'd go in and have a chat and go, do you remember this story, and tell her. And she's like, oh, that does sound like something I'd do,

which, you know, you kind of could see the story wasn't quite there anymore but she knew herself well enough to be like, oh, yep, yep, that's still there. What's one of your favourite stories that she would tell you? One that stuck the most was once she already had probably four kids by this stage and she was explaining, you know, she'd been down to the shops and the kids were home with Pa and it was, you know, the jasmine was in bloom

and the sun was shining and she just decided to skip home from the shop. So this is mum of four kids. And there was a particularly cranky old lady who lived on the street and she looked over the fence and was like, oh, young lady, what would your mother think of doing that, you know, behaving like that? And she sort of stopped in her tracks. And I guess this was, you know, the 50s, early 60s.

And she's like, well, actually, I am the mother. Just kept skipping. And it's like that, that just ability to tap into joy when life was probably fairly, you know, hectic, weighed down, like, you know, a lot going on. Like, you've probably experienced this, the joy of getting to go to the shops by yourself. Yeah. Attempting to skip. But yeah, that, that, you know, determination to skip in spite, in the face of judgment was But, yeah, that, you know, determination to skip in the face of judgment was just, yeah, very, I carry that with me a lot, even if I'm not quite skipping as much as I'd like to be. Because it's that childlike nature, isn't it, of being an adult

and not losing that magic, which I think is the beauty of plooey, is that it reminds us of the power of being a child and play and that sometimes in our kind of modern world, because of the pressures of like work and both parents often have to work to be able to afford everything and all of those things, we get weighed down and then screens and all of that, it kind of sucks out a lot of that joy. Completely. And that playfulness. And so to me, would you agree that's why Bluey hits a chord as well? It's like remember play?

Yes, completely. And I don't know, are you like did you feel like you were still in touch with play at all like between being a child and then having children? Or was there a gap there for you? So because I was a primary school teacher and I actually had a really deep passion for play-based learning and I worked up north in the Kimberleys and I watched my friend Flick who's a play therapist now, but she was a teacher then, use play in such a powerful way

with the kids in that community because learning for them, they just couldn't get the idea that we would just sit still and write. They'd be cartwheeling over desks. Yeah. You know, so the only vehicle really we had was play. But then so I know a lot about the power of kids' brains and the need for them to be given loads of room to play.

But interesting, so I'd bring that into my own classroom and then once I had my own baby, I was so bogged down by the overwhelming nature of like routine and structure and I'm not routine at all. I'm very all over the shop and I found it so incredibly difficult. My son was quite unwell. So I got so bogged in that that, yeah, I really needed to be reminded. Yeah, yeah.

How did you feel? So I guess I got a long tail of play in my life because I was 17 when my youngest brother was born. So there was always someone to play with through my 20s. I love that. And, yeah, you know, I was a big kid. Like I was trying to hold on to it, you know, like at uni and even beyond. You know, we'd go, my friends and I would go to like a live music show

or something like that and a game of chasey might break out and you'd get weird looks but it was just so fun in the moment. Yeah, completely. But, yeah, the same, what you're meant to be doing versus the fun you could be having. It's just, yeah, it really did take Bluey for me to sit back and think, okay, well, you know, I'm scheduling playtime for my kids and then, okay, and now that's done and put it away. We're going to sit down and have like, you know, it's dinner time. So the play's

over. Yeah. Bluey just models so beautifully how, well, actually everything can be a game, but it's not just play for play's sake. It's actually the basis of the relationships you're building with your kids. And, yeah, I was kind of coming into parenting with no deep theory around it. You know, I hadn't read a book. I was, you know, certainly scrolling lots of clickbait headlines.

I'm like Pinterest, like, prams. I did a lot of, like, work around, like, what's a perfect nursery and, like, sleep schedules and stuff rather than, oh, God, yeah. Yeah, well, but, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And until the kid is in there, like, in front of you ready to play, you can't research how to do that really until you're actually in the moment. But actually just being in the moment, Bluey kind of helped open that up and that's not to say I'm like running this perfect play-based household.

Oh, God, we aren't either. Oh, my God. No, but I think it's a way of being, right? Yeah. And it strikes me because you did Roller Derby. Is that part of that, that joy and lightness? Definitely, yeah. And also I think realisation because I started playing roller derby at 29.

Can you explain what it is to people who don't know? Yeah, so it is great. It's a sport, a team sport on roller skates, mainly played by women, but it's starting to be a co-ed type of thing in the past few years. And yeah, it's a team sport where on a round track, there's one, there's two, a racer on each team who try and get around the track as fast as they can. And then on each team, four blockers who just try and take them out. And so the blockers have to work together. There's lots of like grabbing each other and pulling each other around and you're on roller skates. So the pulling and pushing is doable,

but then the whacking really wipes you out. I haven't played since I had kids. So I'm a bit rusty on, you know, actual, like I couldn't take you rule by rule, but the whole vibe is just fun. You're fully, you know, padded up. You wear a mouth guard and a helmet. And yeah, especially when sort of the roller derby craze, and it's like, it's from back in the 60s, but the late aughts, it really sort of started coming back. You know, it was a lot of dress up, all the teams, like I played for a team, a league called South Sea, and we were the Dolly Rogers, and it was very piratic. And yeah, lots of fishnets and, you know, just fun. Fun, joy. And I, you know, I played in Melbourne and then took that up to Queensland with me and that was

the way I found instant community as well. And yeah, so I carry like, yeah, roller derby is so close to my heart. And, but now it means I have like boxes of dress-ups that go with me everywhere and that the kids are now benefiting from. And, yeah, to have had that experience that they now like, okay, well, you know, that was mum's fun thing. Like it's, yeah, I've sort of realised, oh, yeah, the kids need to know I'm fun so we can have fun together. Yeah, exactly.

And that it doesn't have to have like pressure on it to be like because also we're tired and it's stressful and life is a lot. But I agree that there's a joy and a freedom in Bluey that you're allowed to enter into the play with your kids in a way that feels good to you. And around the dinner table episode with asparagus, we use that where they use the asparagus as a wand, you know, to get the kids to eat.

It's just a way of like being reminded when you're an adult and there's so much going on for you that actually being silly is like the best bloody thing for you, not just for your kids. And also it can be the path of least resistance. Like, you know, I'm sort of, yeah, I'm still reminding myself of this, learning this, like, yeah, we had a moment, you know, probably this time last year when my youngest son, the standoffs were getting very standoffy. Like, you know, the kids sort of really start to come into their own in terms of, no,

I know what I want and yeah, no negotiation will be entered into. And so you sort of come back with the same approach as a parent, like, well, hang on, I'm the one that no negotiation will be entered into. But yeah, like we got to a point where my probably four-year-old at the time said to me, mommy, you're using your mean voice and just, oh, which, yeah, he's a real sensitive little soul and, you know, the seven-year-old probably would have dealt with that fine. But to hear that, I'm like, yeah, well, it's not as though putting play to the side and trying to be serious

is actually going to get you the result you want. Yeah. So, yeah, it feels like a revelation revelation and I'm sure there's books written on this. I'm sure there's so much theory and academic, you know, treaties and all this kind of thing, but yeah, to have it kind of bundled and modelled and, you know, the theories in Bluey, but also the actionable kind of processes in Bluey and, you know, a few fun lines that are going to connect with your kids if you bring them up within your own life. Like, you know, we are living this at our house and it does, yeah,

I have to have a voice in my head saying lots of people say what would Bandit do but I'm more chillier tuned to be honest. Yes. I love that she's come more into her own too as the season goes through. She has been a champion. I know because that was one bugbear I had with the first season. I felt like Banda got to be fun and she was just always the like, I'm bringing all the swim gear and like don't be so silly, Banda,

and that shit me. So I was like women are allowed to be just as silly and bumbling and don't always know what's going on either. Completely, yeah. No, this season has allowed her to, yeah, really have those like, I'm not dealing with this either, but, yeah, embrace the madness kind of moments which, yeah, relatable slightly. Completely.

Do you know one of the moments I love for Chilli is that episode, I can't remember what it's called, where it's parenting and the babies crawl, like it's when they. Yeah, baby race. Baby race. Baby race. Oh, and that moment at the end when her neighbour comes over and just tells her she's doing a good job. It's such a, oh, my gosh.

And I think it's why, like you said, you know, the doing all the things and having to do it right, like it just captures why we get stuck in this parenting doesn't feel natural. It doesn't feel like we've got any flow with this. It's just all hard, hard, hard because, yeah, in that episode, you know, she is reading all the books. She is trying to, you know, tick off everything that she's meant to be doing instead of just, well, just, you know.

Being with them. It's not just. It's everything. But, yeah, having just presentness and being. Yeah, that episode was a lot of tears. Oh, completely. Here's a question around parenting. What do you think the power is in connection versus discipline?

Oh, well, as someone who has failed on every front to discipline my children. Welcome to the world of us. Yeah. I'm not sure I'm the least biased person to ask, but yeah, I think I've definitely, you know, grew up in a household that was, you know, was fun and playful in many ways, but discipline was still the most kind of, there were rules and they were to be followed and it was very black and white. And yeah, I'm still here. Yeah. I'm still here, but it's, you know, and that's not to say there wasn't connection.

But yeah, I just find as a parent, when you have that choice and you've got the angel on one side saying, just connect, just reach out, just take a deep breath. Like coming in with a disciplinarian is not going to achieve your goals. And to me, I've never connected with my child trying to discipline them. Yeah. And in a way that's like my friend Flick, who's a play therapist and some of the theory I've done, there's an episode of Taunts with a psychologist called Carly McGoran. Yes. I just love her and everything she said in that. But one of the things I always reiterate is the going back in after the whole thing's happened. So when you've lost your shit and everything's gone off the rails

and all the like co-regulating and like I'm going to be calm so you will be calm. And eventually like just put your shoes on, we've got to go. You know, it happens. And the big blowout, the going back in after and the connecting, I think she was saying that's the most powerful thing in the repair. And I do think the more connection you have with your kids, and I knew this in teaching, it's just harder to implement

when they're your kids in some ways. You know, it's almost like putting money in the bank. Yeah. So when you really need them to do something, if you know them and they know you, it's somehow there is an ease. But it's also like what Bluey teaches us, that bringing in imagination and joy when we can and having permission and having it modelled. So that's what Bluey does so well, I think.

It just modelled it for us. There's a beautiful episode takeaway. And I love, there's a quote that my friend Shana actually has up around her house. Flowers may bloom again, but a person never has a chance to be young again. It's so lovely. I wanted to ask you how you actually started the show with Kate McMahon. How did you actually start Bluey? Because like, I mean, with lines like that, you can't almost, you just have to go and debrief with someone about how you sobbed for an hour, you know? Completely. Yeah. And so we're five years on in the podcast. Bluey, yeah, Bluey's been around for five years last October.

You know, and it kind of seems like, well, like obviously everyone's talking about Bluey seems very, you know, debriefing on Bluey is just what we all do now. But, yeah, when we started the podcast it had only been maybe Bluey had been around for four months and to very little acclaim or announcement or anything like, you know, the creators weren't doing interviews. There was just kind of a, there was bluey and this silence around it of how this magic was happening. So yeah, Kate and I went to uni together. We're both journalists and I was on mat leave at the time and she already had two little kids and was, yeah, working her comms role.

And we were just finding, you know how when you're in the trenches with kids, like in those early baby days, you know, so much of mum catch-ups can just be like, okay, and how's feeding going and how are they sleeping? And it's just the checklist, which needs to be discussed. We all need to debrief. But at the same time, not the most joyful conversation. No, no, no. discussed we all need to debrief but at the same time not the most joyful conversation we were finding by the time we got to oh and did you see that episode of bluey like okay this is where the joy is you're gonna run with this so yeah we'd never made podcast before um but yeah

we would kind of just say okay we'll just meet, we'll pick an episode and we'll just go through every single bit because Kate's a real music buff and the music in Bluey is just beautiful and, yeah, she sort of had classical training and that whole background of, yeah, where music comes from and I was just like, oh, it sounds so pretty. And then we both, like, grew up in the 90s kids and within even just the backgrounds of Bluey or some of the some of the lines there's so much you can dive into that's kind of planted for the maybe millennial parent which thank you because yeah it makes it so watchable and rewatchable and

yeah five years later I'm probably at the point where I've watched every episode of Bluey like a thousand times. Wow. And I'm not sick of it. I would still just sit down and like getting my kids to watch it. I'm like, oh, you know, it might be time for a Bluey. They're like, oh, that's your show. What are the highlight reels where this podcast is taking you? Like what are the things where you're like,

I cannot bloody believe that this is a thing I've got to do because of this show? Well, it's, yeah, so to start just getting to talk about, like it's been, you know, the point of connection with me and Kate. We've been friends forever but having a schedule to meet of like, oh, we will catch up and we will talk and, you know, you don't just talk about Bluey. It's all our lives and all the mess and everything else that's going on. But you've

probably found this in your own podcast. Podcast relationships are real. They're real and so special because you're so present. You're so present. And you do, in this funny way, connect on this really deep level. I've found that with guests of the show where you have these conversations that are like I just treasure forever because it is like a it's not, we just don't do it so much anymore, you know. Yeah. Really sit and really listen.

Yeah. So that's been a non-Blue Ear related highlight. Okay, no, scheduling friends is a very good thing. Yeah. Yes. But also, yeah, so from when we started within our first few episodes, some of the creators got in touch with us and said, oh, you have a podcast about our show.

This is like, hi. Oh, that's so special. And that was so lovely and it meant that having launched it in March by June, Kate and I, our families had decided to go on a holiday to Queensland together and, yeah, we decided to go on a holiday to Queensland together. And yeah, we got to go and visit Ludo Studio where Bluey's made and meet so many of the animators. And yeah, just a beautiful, joyful team of people who obviously work really hard, but yeah, just so passionate about what they do. And while we were there, we interviewed Joe Brum, the creator, who really hadn't done a lot of interviews at that stage. And yeah, like, you

know, we had half an hour. We could have just kept throwing questions at him for the rest of our life, to be honest. What's he like? He is so just down to earth and yeah, just so laid back about it all. Like it's such the Queensland stereotype but, yeah, just complete Queenslander, you know. He talks with a Queensland drawl and it's, you know, he's just so thoughtful and probably back then we didn't realise how much kind of research thought was going into Bluey. But, yeah, as we've interviewed him like over the course

of the podcast a few times, yeah, he'll just sort of casually drop. And, you know, and I was researching, you know, play-based learning in relation to blah, blah, blah. And, you know, and that was why I thought, yeah, that there was an image in the textbook that had a boat and that's how I started designing that episode. And, like, it makes complete sense and I'm sure you, Claire, too, are a, you know, you get an idea and then you want to deep dive

everything around it. And I can completely see how that just drives what Bluey is and why there's so much packed into it because, yeah, it's that deep diving sort of mindset. Okay, well, if I'm going to find out something about this, I want to know everything about it. Wow. So it's not just coming up with a fun idea or an accident

that's so layered. Yeah. What's his background like? Where did that idea come from? So that's his not official biographer. But, no, I heard him talk a lot about, you know, where, so he's an animator by trade and, yeah, Bluey was the first sort of series he ever sat down to write.

So all that, you know, few decades of animation experience he put into writing it. But, yeah, I think he's said that a big part of his storytelling practice comes from playing, and I'm going to stuff up the name, not Magic the Gathering, what's the other one? Dungeons and Dragons. Oh, Dungeons and Dragons, yes. Yeah, some of our friends do and that is such a grown-up kid thing

from like Stranger Things, that whole adventure magic. But as a kid he was doing that. He was watching Astro Boy and he was, you know, there was Foot Drop Flats was a big inspiration because obviously all of that was like cartoon to the TV and that's the inspiration for Mackenzie, the New Zealand dog who's Bluey's friend. Yeah, so it's been, as a not particularly creative person myself, a big part and the big joy of making Gotta Be Done has been just seeing,

oh, so creative people, they basically just like it is play. Like creativity is play and it feeds itself and it grows. And, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of talent involved as well, but that's sort of seeing the little things in his life that kind of all came together. And he's a dad of two girls. So, you know, I think we asked him early on, are you just sitting there with a spreadsheet kind

of just taking notes on everything they say and, yep, that'll be used in that episode and, like, is it very ordered? And he didn't really give us a straight answer on how he collected all this information to then put into Bluey. But, yeah, to me that's the real charm of Bluey, that the kids and the weird things the kids say and they're just so unique reactions to things are so real to life. So real to life.

You can. And that's what's so special. I totally agree. It's the honest kind of it just feels exactly what it's like to parent these little unique beings. Yeah. And the most hilarious moments are the ones that like aren't big in some like fancy party or something.

It's just like literally around the kitchen table at a certain point, someone comes out with something on their head. You know, like I was watching my son sleep last night and he has this blankie he got given that has a head in it. Yeah, right. Yeah. I just watch him sleep. I know, weirdo. Weird.

And I also smell his head still, he's eight, and I'm like, bye. And he's like, what are you smelling my head for? Anyway, so weird. But he's got this like blanket that has a little bear head in it and little bear paws that he can tuck himself into. And so he's sleeping with this little bear head on and his paws. He's got like his blankie up one side and then he's got like a tiny little monkey called Steve that he's had forever,

like the other. And he's like halfway down his bed and he's snoring. And I'm just watching this kid thinking, you are just so strange and so magic. And that I feel like is what they then bring into their grown-ups. Yeah. Like you're allowed to be strange and weird and funny and awkward and silly and magic.

And it breaks my heart because I often think as adults people start to bring in these representatives of themselves or who they think they should be. And it's sort of I find it hard to connect with them sometimes because I think we're all creatives and all creative beings in different ways. But some people have it beaten out of them that now I'm a grown-up and I talk about tax returns

and I talk about furniture from Ikea and everything is hard and intense and important. And the only time I can be silly is if I have beers with friends on a Friday night or something. Yeah. And don't get me wrong, love some beers on a Friday night. Yeah, but just take that bit and forget about the text return. Exactly.

There's something actually I've been doing which I think you might resonate with. Like there's this group of mums in our community and we live in the same community and we've just done nights out where we do dress-ups or like we had a night away over summer all together with just mums and people bought dress-ups and then we all changed outfits like five times and just like sequins and like silly board games. And it reminded me of what you talked about with the roller derby because then if our kids can see us doing that too, how fun.

What a fun way to like exist in the world. And that's modelling a joy of life because as we know and I think what you see in the show and then there's that brilliant episode you do with like the three people who are researchers. Oh, yeah. Is that Dr. Molly Scott, Aria Gaston-Panthenacky and Doug Pife?

Yes, yeah. And that was just I was in my happy place. So my day job is I work for university in comms. So yeah, so often, you know, I'm talking about academic research and, you know, what people are finding out out there and how to break it down and bring it to people. But talking to these guys who are academics in play and development, like they are based in America. They'd sort of, you know, found Bluey and reached out to the podcast saying, oh, we talk about Bluey a lot actually so we could do that with you.

But their perspective on Bluey was like we have to spend all our academic lives, like, you know, finding out this stuff about the best way that kids can develop and how play can connect and everything just, you know, works better with play. And how do you get everyone to know that? And it turns out you just put it in a seven-minute show and, you know, make it, yeah, send it around the world and everyone will love it and that's how. Yeah.

It's just, it's mind-blowing from that perspective of, yeah, the research is happening and tiny people in, not tiny people, they're normal-sized people. Oh, man, I just love the idea of tiny little people in like tiny little houses. No, normal-sized people in tiny rooms all over universities everywhere and, you know, universities aren't the only places that knowledge is made.

But that's, you know, that's a lot of funded activity saying, okay, we're going to fix the world by these people finding out what we need to do to do life better. And it is so hard to then get that out to, so everyone knows how to do life better instead of just like blindly feeling their way. Like I have certainly felt as a parent many times, but yeah, to have a vehicle that is so accessible to the parents that primes the children for understanding what the parents are trying to achieve and then maybe even, you know, fitting in and just. And modelling it.

Yeah. Modelling it in a way that you can actually see. Because you could say to someone, play is really important. Yeah. But what does that actually mean? Like setting out some blocks? Like what do you mean? Just like keeping them off the screen?

Yeah. What does that actually mean? But seeing the parents involved in their kids play in that way. Or the other thing is allow, like I had some really great advice where sometimes they're so bloody, I was going to swear, so freaking exhausted by life and what we're trying to achieve. But actually sometimes just not being on your phone, sitting in a chair and just observing your kids play is enough for them. Like they just want you to be watching them.

And that, especially in lockdown, did a lot of that. You know, just with a cup of tea. But then like they might ask you to play with them and I think they model that in Bluey too. They're not always playing. The parents aren't always interacting. But just you're kind of there to observe them. Yeah. And that feeling for them is great too.

Yeah. Yeah, and I think Jo Brum has said a few times that actually the research says that kids playing together is the best form of development, not kids playing with the parents. But it's funnier for Bluey if the parents are involved, so we involve the parents. Oh, yeah. Well, okay.

That makes sense. But I think so much of parenting has been Instagramised as well. So I see so much and I've certainly done this for my kids and I don't think it's a bad thing, but like setting up a play tray that you then, you know, carefully design and film and then you let the kids at it kind of thing and there's nothing wrong with it. Like it's kind, it's thoughtful to your kids, but at the same time just letting the kids lead.

My boys have this game at the moment that they're obsessed with that every night in the shower they'll say, oh, mum, we need more face washes. And then once I've delivered like, you know, up to 10 face washes to the shower, they put the face washes around each bottle of shampoo or conditioner or whatever and then put a little like cup on each head and then they're mystical magicians and they play out like this elaborate game and, you know,

the ducks are the baddies. And it's so like it sounds so ridiculous to say it out loud, but they are so immersed in it. And yeah, you didn't need to set anything up. You just put them in the shower. And every kid has this inside them, but actually just finding the space to let it happen, because I've certainly rushed my kids out of the shower before. I feel like I'm rushing them everywhere. So yeah, it's me seeing that happen. It's like the reminder I need to like, okay, just let it, let it happen. Yeah, completely. It reminds me of my friend, Dan Steele. I interviewed he, I'm just like reeling off people I've interviewed. Anyway,

he's a primary school teacher and now he's a principal coach. So he coaches principals. But he was telling me about this beautiful bit of research, and I can't remember who it's from, where you need to just give up the ghost around getting them to bed because there's this real frustration and intention in that house where it's like, can you just clean your teeth? Can you put your pyjamas on? Okay, now we're going to have baths. Can you get out of the bath?

Okay, we're just doing two stories. Can you get clean your teeth? Can you put your pyjamas on? Okay, now we're going to have baths. Can you get out of the bath? Okay, we're just doing two stories. Can you get into bed? And they just do everything they can to postpone the bedtime and you're in this tuffle. And Dan was saying actually what you just need to do is accept the fact that they're looking for that last bit of connection. You're never going to get them to get into bed until like they're going to get into bed.

And if you accept that it's just going to take time and I know you want to get to the couch so you can watch, I don't know, whatever it is, Game of Thrones or Bluey or, you know, your TV of choice or just have that bar of chocolate that you've been hanging out for all day because you just want that tiny bit of precious time for yourself and then you end up falling asleep next to them or something. He said like because I was every night I have this like,

oh, it's bedtime. All right, come on, guys. Next thing, next thing, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick off the list. And he said you just have to accept that that's the last bit of connection they want with you every night. They're not going to want it forever and it sucks because you want some time by yourself and you've had a long day but you're not going to change it and all you're doing is battling.

Yeah. So maybe you just accept it. It's so hard to know what is, you know, the line between good parenting and giving up. Yeah. But if they can just join together, then yeah. I know. And then in my head I'm like, but is that just like a lack of discipline and you're just letting them run?

And they do have to go to bed at a, like they need to be in bed at 8 o'clock or, you know, whatever time to get sleep. But I did love that idea. Yeah, and I've practiced it in my own life now and I've found it easier. It's not that I'm like, great, stay up to whenever. It's more just understanding why they're stretching. It's like my son's always like, just another glass of water. Oh, I need to go to the toilet again.

Oh, can you tuck my. Yeah, can you grab my extra, I don't know, Chewbacca toy? Yeah. Kate shared a similar story that was a good piece of advice she got early from actually you might know the author, Kemi Netkeville, who's – Oh, thank you so much. Kate sort of connected with her through work at the stage where I think she was pregnant with her

first little girl, Olivia. And Kemi already had kids and lots of good advice to share. But yeah, her very succinct advice was like, look, you know, just one thing to think about. Don't be weird about vegetables. And Kate carried this. Like, yeah, like, you know, if they don't eat something, like it's not the end of the world. Just don't be weird about it. And I just have that voice inside me now so often being, am I being weird about this? Like actually why am I obsessed with that particular food being eaten on the plate before you leave the table?

Yeah. You know, who, what, yeah, how has this whole kind of thing become a thing? Yeah, industrial complex developed and, yeah, actually, yeah, what is weird here, maybe just go play. Right. And I think that was the joy I found in parenting my second daughter because with my son I'd read all these books that were like save your sleep or something and it was like minute by minute,

military precision, am I doing this, I'm not doing it right, he's not sleeping, it's all my fault. And with her I realised I'm like she's just gonna sleep how she sleeps and in the end I can fight it or I can cuddle her to sleep and she can sleep in my bed and who cares and rolling with it and trying to just roll with more of it and we've we've cut back on extracurricular activities heaps which I don't know in the end he's not going to be necessarily a virtuoso pianist maybe. I don't know.

Just giving them more time to play, I think, and B, we're trying to kind of build that in. We go for like long walks during evening time now with them sometimes. Oh, lovely. Just because the sun's going down and we were battling them to bed and now that's kind of added a bit of ease. I'm conscious we've been talking about Aiden. I could talk to you forever, but I do have the same. Oh, it's so lovely. I wanted to talk about some

specific episodes, but first I just wanted to briefly mention this amazing thing you shared on Instagram. It's that sketch from SNL, the BG sketch with Jimmy Fallon and Jossie Timberlake, where it says, if you don't cry in Bluey, you're not a real man. See, yeah. See, yeah, this should just be the tagline of Bluey from the start. Yes. And manhood. Manhood needs a new tagline. Oh, doesn't it? Let's get everyone on board.

Exactly. Okay, so I want to talk about the cricket episode. Okay. God, why is that so amazing? Tell me about it. Okay, so cricket is the most recent Bluey episode that we have received and, yeah, it's the story of Rusty who is one recent Bluey episode that we have received. And, yeah, it's the story of Rusty, who is one of Bluey's little friends,

and Joe Brum's favourite character, which is good intel to have. So I think he built up to this episode for a long time. But Rusty loves cricket. And in the course of a game of cricket at a birthday party, the story gets told of how Rusty actually developed his amazing cricket prowess. And it's because his dad's serving overseas in the army. So, you know, he's getting a lot of, spending a lot of time at home or at friends' houses when his mum can't pick him up. And, and yeah, just so much detail. It's almost like, oh, and I'm thinking on the name, the film about the Indian guy that

wins. Oh, Slumdog Millionaire. So yeah, so everything that happens in the game on the field prompts a flashback of, well, why did Rusty smash that pace ball out of the park? And so it's, so yeah, there's a lot going on. The team at Ludo was also educating the whole world about how cricket works. At one point, a little diagram pops up of where slip and gully are. That's so true. I hadn't even thought about that. God, they're so clever. So there's a lot going on.

I don't love cricket. So for anyone thinking, oh, why is it this episode about cricket that's so beautiful? It's not, it doesn't have to be about cricket. It's about how a kid develops both a love for something and passion for something basically. And then, yeah, the episode builds to a climax of Rusty achieving in the cricket world basically

and it's a flash forward. And flash forwards in Bluey are always very emotional because did you know kids grow up? I can't deal with it. I have a blue podcast my sister who's a teacher as well actually um has a Bluey meme account on Instagram oh my god she's in the throes of wrangling a newborn at the moment but she actually actually has had a bit to do with the Resilience Project and she actually mapped the episode in a blog about how everything Rusty does and experiences is like in lines with the resilience building model

in the Resilience Project. So he's grateful to be able to play cricket. He's empathising with the other cricketers around him even though they're not as good and he's helping them. And I can't remember what the M stands for in Gem, but anyway, magic maybe. Yeah, I think so. He's so magical. Even at the end when he hits that ball up and so his little sister can catch it. Yes, that is a key moment.

I know. And then you also see that flashback to him at the beach with his dad playing cricket and you realise his dad's in the army. Yes, yeah. It's so clever and it's such a short episode. Yeah. Seven minutes or something and they manage to take you on this. I watched it again today in preparation for the episode

and I was just like, sobbing. That is commitment to the cause. Oh, look. I will always watch a Blu-ray episode. I'm so interested in did you bring a cricket understanding to this episode? Are you a cricket fan? Well, it's interesting because my dad was a big cricket fan, huge, and my brother is.

And my dad passed away 10 years ago this year. And during the eulogy that my brother gave, he ends it with, and I'm going to butcher his words, but it was something like, and dad always said, always protect your stumps. And that was his like kind of metaphor for life about as a dad parenting my brother. And it was very different for me because I wasn't that into cricket. Yeah. But Dad had this incredibly terrifying fast-paced ball and he would never,

he wouldn't go easy. He wouldn't go easy. And that's why that episode meant so much to me as well because I remember that as a kid. It's terrifying and my brother said that in his eulogy, that that was dad's way of parenting. He just would throw you in the deep end, but then you built this resilience. So like, even with learning to drive, that was kind of how he taught us. Like you jump in, it's terrifying and high risk. And sometimes I'm like, what were you thinking? Like one time I remember he, like,

I'd been driving for, I don't know, a month or something and he got me to pull into the emergency lane on the freeway and then he's like, okay, you're going to merge. So terrifying and actually in hindsight terrible parenting in a lot of ways. But that was Dad. He was very much about throwing you in the deep end and helping you to swim but also not compromising. And I think sometimes where we cuddle kids so much and helping you to swim but also not compromising.

And I think sometimes where we cuddle kids so much, and don't get me wrong, I've cotton-walled my kids too, but that episode I loved that idea that his brother's friends didn't go easy on Rusty. They did the hard cricket ball, they threw it hard, and then he got hurt but he stepped up. So, yeah, it means a lot to me. Oh, that is beautiful. Yeah, and always protect your stump.

That's a pretty beautiful kind of line. The line in the episode that the dad who's voiced by Anthony Wiggle writes home to Rusty is that you're going to face harder things in life than a cricket ball. You've just got to step forward and play a pool shot. And that, like, I know, but, yeah, it's funny. My seven-year-old has become very into just playing cricket in the court and we live in a court so it's like we live our best 80s life,

to be honest. It's very old school. But, yeah, if a game of cricket breaks out, and this is sort of what's happening in this episode too, everyone's going to be at different levels and abilities and it is really working together and kind of empathising with your other kids and making it work for them. And, you know, maybe the big kids are bowling a bit apace,

but they know now how to go a bit easier on the little kids. And, yeah, I think, you know, it all goes very well in this episode and no one's head gets knocked off by a fastball or anything like that. But, yeah, it really does, you know, the message for the kids is inclusion. And, yeah, the message for parents, I don't even know where to start. I know, it's so many layers, isn't it? And it just reminded me my son loves cricket and he's so sad that the season's over, which I really wasn't expecting.

And it's just a good reminder for me to actually get out there with him with the ball, you know? Yeah, I've done it through gritted teeth and I'm still not at the point where I'm saying, yeah, let's write off our whole weekend taking you to a field somewhere so you can stand on it. But Louis has definitely made me think about, you know, the things people are passionate about.

Like I've always been a bit dismissive of cricket, for instance, or music that I don't like or, you know, like sort of define myself by my interests. But like, yeah, actually kind of realising, oh, well, people are interested in other things because they are also fascinating and perhaps I should be a bit more open-minded. So, yeah, I'm starting with cricket. We'll see where it goes. See where it goes. So I'm really curious, what is your favourite episode of Bluey?

I know that's a very obvious conversation question. Well, actually Kate and I are in the same boat because we just nailed our colours to the mast quite early. There's an episode called Bike and it was from the first season. It was the first episode I ever saw and it's just the full package. So for people who don't know it, it's set in a park. Bluey's trying to ride her bike without training wheels for the first time and struggling. But then she and Bandit kind of sit back and see that every kid in this park is struggling with something and the only way they're going to be able to do it is persist.

And Bingo, the little sister, her point of persistence is trying to push the button on the bubbler but then also get around the other side to drink the water before the button comes out. And it's just like the most, you know, yes, things are not, you know, design is not done with toddlers in mind. That's just like the most, you know, yes, things are not, you know, design is not done with toddlers in mind. That's just hilarious. But this episode also has Beethoven's 11th maybe as Ode to Joy as the soundtrack.

And we've interviewed the composer, Joff Bush, who does all of Bluey's soundtracks or scores about this and about all of the music he does. But the score starts as like a beginner trying to kind of feel out Ode to Joy on the piano and then just throughout the episode as all the little dogs are getting better at what they're doing and building their resilience and hitting their walls and getting back up again. Yeah, it just builds to a full like orchestral kind of lift and voices and beautifulness. And, yeah, I cry every time.

And this is probably the episode I've watched like 5,000 times. And I even, yes, at one point got me and a friend decided we were going to get bluey tattoos. So bingo, pushing the bubbler is my bluey tattoo. And I don't know, it's just, yeah, it's such a simple way to kind of paint resilience and paint, you know, just determination. And, yeah, it's kind of what every kid needs but what everyone needs maybe. It's what I need.

It's totally what I need. And I think that's part of it. It feels like medicine for the soul or something. Yeah. It ties it together for the soul or something. Yeah. It ties it together and you get to the end. I think for me there's an episode, Bumpy and the Wise Old Wolfhound. Yes. Could you tell us about that one?

Well, I'm definitely going to ask why you connect with it. But, yeah, so it is a beautiful, it's the story of Bingo being in hospital and you don't know why but she's there with Chilly, her mum, and then they're obviously upset. They've just heard they have to stay in for another night and then Chilly gets a message on the iPad from back at home, Dad and Bluey, and it turns out all the kids in the neighbourhood have just sent them a video and it's a video they've made

of a play called Bumpy and the Wise Old Wolfhound that tells the story of a puppy dog getting sick and how a community comes together to try and make it better. But, yeah, I think ultimately about acceptance and the realisation that everyone gets sick sometimes. Yeah, yeah. I love that episode. It's probably my favourite one because my son was in and out of hospital

a lot when he was little and the story is so sweet and fun. So the kids love it because it's like this idea of the purple underpants and that whole thing is so funny but that line at the end that everyone gets sick in different ways. And I think when I was going through it with my son, he was so little and we felt really alone because we felt like most of my friends who had kids and there weren't that many weren't experiencing life the way we were. And we were lucky. It wasn't an incredibly serious illness compared to what other parents go through. It wasn't cancer or anything like that,

but there was a long period where we didn't know what it was. So it was a lot of diagnosis and a lot of roads and being in hospital and that hospital setting being so tricky. And so the idea of everyone coming together to support them and then saying, actually, it's okay, you're going to be okay. Everyone gets sick and accepting that, you know, they weren't alone in that meant so much to me. And I wonder if you still have kids who have, you know, illness or disabilities, all kinds of things. I just think what a precious episode. Oh, completely.

To make. Yeah, I think. And that's something we talk about a lot in the podcast as well because Kate, my co-host, is very open about the fact her eldest daughter has a genetic disorder and then there's been kind of health challenges with her younger kids as well. And, yeah, just that time in hospital, like, yeah, it's so, you know, seeing this episode through her eyes and then there's another episode

called Early Baby that, yeah, you hear from a lot of health professionals that they're actually prescribing watching Early Baby to families who have had a preemie because the message that, you know, how strong you have to be to go through that experience. It's just so, just lands and is so meaningful to so many families. Yeah, you can tell these episodes, you know, are coming from lived experience, right? Like you can't make it up.

But, yeah, it's, I don't know, I guess making an episode like that runs a bit of a risk in that people have got trauma associated with those things. Is it going to be triggering? Like how do you see that episode from all your experience, like, you know, walking a line of affirming rather than confronting? That's such a good question. What a good interview you are.

I think it's the brilliance of Bluey, right, because it's done in such a playful way. Yeah. And a joyful way. It's supportive. And you feel like, yes, it taps into particular experiences, but at the end, which is I think the joy of Bluey, makes us feel less alone. It's supportive and you feel like, yes, it taps into particular experiences, but at the end, which is I think the joy of Bluey,

makes us feel less alone. Yeah, completely. And like that particular episode, the thing I love is that they've just dragged in, you know, uncles and aunts and, you know, like so much of the, you know, the stories and the success, you know, when the healers have success, it's because of the people around them as well. And it really holds up that community as this is a solution for us.

Like this year, if we work together, if you're connecting with people, which is hard, you know, it's, yeah, if you don't, like you say, you know, not everyone's got the same experience. So, yeah, when you're in hospital, no one else is getting, you know, what's going to be useful at this point. But there's an episode I love where Bluey meets another little girl in the park and they make instant friends. And it takes the little girl's dad and bandit quite a bit longer to sort of start breaking down the barriers and interacting. But yeah, I love that about Bluey that I love community. I'm not the best person at building community and I've had to, like,

come out of my shell a lot to do that. But, yeah, even as Bluey's saying, look, like, life is easy if you've got community and, you know, it's still not easy obviously but it's something to aspire to. But also here's a sweet little episode about how you could start to build it. Thank you, Bluey. Completely. And I do think that's the key to so much of our parenting challenges, which is what Bluey does is model how much easier it is when you're parenting with other parents, community together, and how much of an easier load that is. I do a lot of work on matrescence. I'm trying not to bring it up in everything I say.

Bring it on. But that is one of the things that we've lost in this isolating way that we live often. Back in the day when a woman gave birth, she'd have 15 other adults around her to hold the baby and then that's so shared. So the load is so shared and, you know, women can like just lie in bed for 40 days,

like in China and in other communities. India is the same. They do that in Ghana. I spoke to this beautiful woman from Ghana who was saying she didn't have any loss of identity or sense of self when she became a mother because she'd seen people give birth. Everyone was breastfeeding around her. All the women were sitting outside with their kids.

So she just slotted in and people held her baby. She played with other kids and it was this sense of everyone playing, caring, lifing, washing clothes, cooking in this sort of, and it's not obviously loads of problems as well. It's not like a perfect world. But in terms of your sense of identity and self, I do think that there's a real lack of community and support around women. You have to be really lucky if you give birth and you have two people other than your husband who can come and hold your baby, you know, in full,

in like, you have lots of friends that come and go, but it's not living day in and day out, you know, in that way. Yeah. Was that your experience? I count myself lucky. Yeah, like I had good friends who were having babies at the same time as me. So that was really beautiful. And then on my husband's side, my sister-in-law had had kids and was very much in the, um, the handing

down of the things. Like, yeah, I think we were in it. We've been home for one day and she arrived unannounced with like one of those electronic rocker type things. Perfect. Genius. The best thing ever. Okay.

So you don't know that you need this yet, but you're going to need this. So, you know, that kind of like, that was just a gift. And so I can't imagine how many hours of, you know, Instagram research that saved me. But, yeah, I think because of, you know, how I'd grown up in my family, I didn't lose sense. Like I felt like I knew what was going to be involved. But, yeah, certainly finding where to fit as the kids got bigger as the boys got older and, you know, so much of how you interact

with other families and other parents as well, are we on the same page in how we're doing this, which I feel very like we don't have a philosophy we're attached to. We're kind of just rolling with it. Yeah, exactly. And I think so often like I was definitely feeling it was that, you know, voice inside me of like, well, am I doing this right to take this out of the house? Like am I doing this enough to be able to then, you know,

connect with that person and have them accept me? And, yeah, so much pressure is put on post-baby time where you're trying to build that community. And once they're starting school, it's like, well, I have to be friends with these people for a long time, so I've really got to get this right. And, yeah, it doesn't end. No, it's a moving feat.

And I've heard friends of mine who've got kids who are in their 30s and 40s are like, it does not end, it just changes. Yeah, so that's good to know. It's hard, but in a different way. I'm like, oh, my God, Cheryl, don't tell me that. That's mortifying. Okay,'s hard but in a different way. I'm like, oh, my God, Cheryl, don't tell me that. That's mortifying. Okay, I wanted to finish with two things. I'll ask you one and then I'll ask you the last one.

Of all of this Bluey talk, of the five years that have gone on, what has been the most unusual, surprising, magic thing for you? Look, can I split two? Totally can. There's no rules. We're playing here. I've always been a podcast listener and I feel like especially as I had babies, I was listening to podcasts where it was people having conversations

because I wanted to be in those conversations and that's like Chat 10 Looks 3 was very much, you know, in the background for so much of my early baby years because I'm like there's still culture out there. I can almost touch it. Thank you. Talk to me about it. But, yeah, to then start one of those podcasts about something

that so many people already connect to, just the generosity and the vulnerability of people who would reach out and say, okay, you said this on the podcast and this has happened to me and this is what I've done. And just people connecting even with each other over the podcast as well. Like it's, you know, in theory, that's why I started a podcast, but it did not occur to me any of that was going to happen. So yeah, having what feels like a community and people who email us every week or, you know, are really active on our socials and things like that. And we're not doing anything for them apart from usually maybe once a week

putting out a podcast but sometimes absolutely not. Yeah, that's been so surprising and beautiful. And, you know, if you sometimes get a bit in your head and, like, I've very much grown up, I was a homeschooled kid, for instance, so, you know, grown up with that identity, but I'm different to everyone else. And it's hard to shake that identity. But, yeah, actually, yeah, I think there's a lot of sameness about a lot of us. And, yeah, finding that to connect over is so beautiful.

On the other end of the scale, there's an episode of Bluey where the family go to the library. And that episode's called Promises. It's about how society functions at a high level, but also it's a very cute story about, you know, why you have to bring back your books and why you have to take turns on the flying fox. In the library, there's a dog who says four words to Bandit and I am that dog. And another dog that helps Bandit get a book down from the shelf and says another six words and Kate is that dog. And, yeah, that is just, yeah, we did not set out to be part of Bluey

when we started the podcast and now we're there in what people call the Blueyverse. And, yeah, that is mind-blowing to me. And we recorded the voices as Melbourne was going into like its sixth lockdown. And, you know, everything was sort of about to shut down like kind of at 6pm that night and we just snuck it in and it just felt particularly miraculous or unreal even, like is this really happening?

What's going on? And then back into lockdown and then, yeah, 12 months later, there we were in a library as dogs. What are your four words? Do you remember? Yeah, so it's a confused voice. A confused sound was on the script so I was like, oh, can I help you? Oh, yes.

Yes, you can. You can help everyone understand Bowie. That's so perfect. I love that so much. Well, Kate and I have theorised that perhaps we were put in the library because we're so committed to research, but our research is pretty patchy at best actually. So perhaps it was like do your research, get into the library,

sort it out. Maybe. But also isn't that such a full circle thing that your grandparents are in a bookshop? Yeah, yes. I love that. No, I think they had our number. Because it was Joe Brum who first suggested that we might be able

to do the voices, he sent a very cryptic email with like emojis in it and there was a pile of books in the emoji and we're already like, yes, sign us up, whatever this is if there's books involved. It wouldn't have mattered what it was. We could have, you know, been the baddies. We're like, yes, we will be the baddies. We'll be whatever. I love that so much.

All right. Just very quickly, do you love having chickens? Yes, I do. And, do you love having chickens? Yes, I do. And what do you love about chickens? You have how many? Spotty, Two, Fizzy, Poker, Dotty, Bobby and Smokey. Why do you love them? Man, you are reeling those off.

I have to really stop and think what our chickens know sometimes. But, yeah, so where we live is kind of like a fairly bushy area in Melbourne. We have a backyard that has space for a chicken coop and a very good chicken coop. We had a less good chicken coop and then a fox came. That's our area. Those foxes are everywhere, my gosh. One walks past our studio every night.

Oh, wow. Perhaps he wants a guest role. I know. Come on, Dave. Come on, Mr Fox. Cameo. Yeah, so no, it is, yeah, I find chickens and anything backyard. Yeah, it's just all excuses to be outside with the kids.

And as a country kid, yeah, I really have realised I need to build that into life because if you're, and same with your walks, hey, like, yeah, if you're not actually scheduling outside time, days can go past where you're like, oh, outside's out you're not actually scheduling outside time, days can go past. We're like, oh, outside's out there and, you know, I feel so much better when I'm in it but haven't gotten out there. So, yeah, our chickens and, you know, trying to grow veggies in the backyard and things like that are very much about, right, we are going to be as connected as we can be to outside.

And, yeah, so far so good. Excellent. Oh, that's so great. Yeah, because that's it. Something I've realised recently is if you go outside, they'll go outside. It's almost like, why aren't they flying outside? Oh, because I'm going outside. That's such a simple thing.

That is a revelation. Yeah, well put. Look, I am just like a font of wisdom. I'm not going to lie. I'm just genius. put. I actually, look, I don't, I am just like a font of wisdom. I'm not going to lie. I'm just genius. Exactly. I appreciate it. Well, thank you so much, Mary, for coming on.

This has just been such a precious conversation. I've been wanting to talk to you for so long and I've been such a fan of all your work and what you're doing. I want to ask you just briefly what's next for you guys. Are you releasing more episodes? What are you planning? So, yeah, look, we, Gotta Be Done's been on a bit of an extended break because life. But yeah, I think we're at the point where, okay, we're easing back in. So we have, I think, 185 episodes

for anyone who's uninitiated that if you want to listen, you could go back and listen to those. It's called Gotta Be Done. Yes. And it's on all the podcast platforms. But, yeah, I think we really missed not recording and possibly I think we're going to be coming at it very enthusiastically with a lot of time to, you know, making up for lost time as well. There's probably still 20 episodes we haven't recapped and, yeah,

get regular mail about those being particularly people's favourite ones and what are we doing. Yeah, and frankly those emails are right. We should lift our game. Well, I would like some more, so please. Well, yes, that's it. And then, you know, hopefully new Bluey episodes will keep coming at us for the rest of time so we know how to continue to parent.

Correct. And, yeah. Exactly. We'll be here to break it down. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on touch. It's been a joy. I've been loving watching you.

You've got Bluey and bingo earrings. Of course. Which has just been, is it Bluey and bingo or is it band? Yeah. Good. All right. Excellent. Perfect.

They've been gorgeous to watch. Thank you so much, Mary. And go and listen to Gotta Be Done podcast on all your platforms. I really recommend it. Okay. Let's go. It's been a joy. Thanks. Yay. Thanks. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with the extraordinary Mary Bowling. For more from Mary, please head over to Gotta Be Done podcast. There are so many episodes over there to listen back to. And she is eventually going to be releasing more too. You can email the show hello at claretaunty.com with comments with your favorite Bluey episode,

with themes or guest suggestions. Or if you would like to have me come into your community to sing some songs and have a cup of tea and talk about matrescence, I would love to do that as well. For all of my live shows and events that are coming up, you can head to my website, claire20.com forward slash events. I've got lots more coming up in the works. Thank you so much to Royal Collings for editing this week's episode and to Maisie for running our socials. I'm going to go and re-watch Cricket again. That's my favourite Bluey episode, I think. Oh, there's so many. What a gorgeous show.

Okay, big love to you out there. Let's figure out how we can keep bringing the joy and the play back into parenting. And don't worry, even when you lose your shit, what did we say? It's all about the repair, going back in there and trying again. All right. Talk to you soon. Tons out.