TONTS. - Boundaries & Self Love with Sam Buckingham

Episode Date: October 20, 2022

Sam Buckingham is an alternative pop, folk singer songwriter based in Byron Bay, Australia. In May 2020, after receiving a Resilience Fund grant from the Australia Council, Sam Buckingham setup up a makeshift studio in her living room to start pre-production on her new album Dear John. Co-produced with long time collaborator Kent Eastwood, the album was originally going to be mostly acoustic and stripped back - a very traditional “singer-songwriter" creation. A week after pre-production began, Buckingham woke in the middle of the night and wrote a song that would completely change the course of the album.The album stemmed from the breakdown of a relationship but, at its core, Buckingham insists that Dear John is anything but a break-up record.“The relationship itself was emotionally and psychologically abusive. It was so toxic, but I didn’t know that while I was in it. I thought I was just doing something wrong” says Buckingham. “This album isn’t about the relationship though, it’s about me. I had to unlearn so much of what I thought I knew about myself, about love, and about being a woman in this world. These songs document my process of healing, learning and rising up to be the woman I want to be.”With Kate Bush, Solange, Coldplay, Cyndi Lauper and Phil Collins all serving as reference points for the sound on what would become Dear John, Buckingham studied hip hop, soul, rock, pop and feminist literature to create this stunning body of work.The album’s first single Something More, released April 2021, slapped fans in the face with a captivating one-take video that saw Buckingham marching down a Byron Bay laneway commanding and demanding respect. She launched the indie-pop anthem with a six-date sold-out tour last year (no small feat in the height of the pandemic). This was followed by invitations to tour alongside Kate Miller-Heidke, Paul Kelly, Tim Freedman, The Whitlams and Ben Lee.The next single, Let It Burn, was shared exclusively with hundreds of fans that signed up to a five day online experience, where Buckingham invited the select group into her process of grieving, healing and rising up.Dear John was released 8th April, 2022 and debuted at #2 on the AIR Independent Album Charts.1800 Respect - confidential counselling and support: 1800respect.org.auBeyond Blue - support for anxiety, depression and suicide prevention: beyondblue.org.auPANDA - support for recovery from perinatal anxiety and depression: panda.org.au05:18 Start of Interview18:59 Rich Girl: Getting Back to Who You Are26:22 Dear John: The Story of Sam's Relationship (tw: domestic violence)46:44 Something More: Fighting For The Truth52:16 Untamed by Glennon Doyle01:21:42 Choosing Self LoveFor more from Sam Buckingham you can head to www.sambuckingham.comFor more from Claire Tonti you can head to www.clairetonti.com or instagram @clairetontiShow credits:Editing - RAW Collings, Claire TontiMusic - Avocado Junkie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A trigger warning before we start this week's episode. We do discuss themes of family violence, emotional and physical abuse and coercive control. If this brings anything up for you at all, please speak to someone you trust or contact Lifeline on 13 11 14. I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak and write today. The Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation and pay my respect to their elders past, speak and write today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been ceded. Hello, this is Tants, a podcast of in-depth interviews about emotions and the way they

shape our lives. I'm your host, Claire Tanti, and I'm really glad you're here. Each week, I speak to writers, activists, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans about their stories. And today, my guest is singer-songwriter Sam Buckingham. I found Sam when I saw her incredibly moving new album, Dear John, online, and I watched her video clip where she barrels the camera and sings and shaves her head and then eats the most delicious looking cream strawberry cake. It was defiant and heartfelt

and it was clear that Sam was a really special person. And then when I deep dived into her work, I realized she was absolutely one of my kind of people. Sam is sharing her story of being involved in a really complex, emotionally abusive relationship. And though some of the inspiration for the album comes from her story there, it's so much more than that. Let me tell you a little bit about it. Co-produced with longtime collaborator Kent Eastwood, Dear John the album was originally going to be mostly acoustic and stripped back, a very traditional singer-songwriter creation. A week after pre-production began, Buckingham woke in the middle of the night and wrote a song that completely changed the course of the album,

possibly her life actually, I think. Sam writes, I wrote Run and all of a sudden realized that the album I was about to make wasn't the album that I wanted to make. I had so much more to say and so many more sounds to explore. I scrapped 70% of the songs and started again. With Kate Bush, Solange, Coldplay, Cindy Lauper and Phil Collins all serving as reference points for the sound, Buckingham studied hip-hop, soul, rock-pop and feminist literature to create this stunning body of work. In just over two months of pre-production sessions, Buckingham and Eastwood created a blueprint working tirelessly to write every single part for the studio musicians to eventually play. Engineered by Paul Hills Nemkix, think Angus and Julia Stone, India Ari,

Eric Bibb and Silverchair at Rocking Horse Studios in Byron Bay. Dear John features trumpet by Ross Irwin from the Cat Empire and the Bamboos, based by James Hazelwood, think Tim Minchin and Casey Chambers, and a who's who cast of Northern Rivers musicians. Sam Buckingham's originally from Byron Bay. Sam writes that this album isn't about the breakup of her toxic relationship. It's actually about herself. I had to unlearn so much of what I thought I knew about myself, about love and about being a woman in the world. These songs document my process of healing, learning and rising up to be the woman I want to be. I really encourage you to go and listen on Spotify to Dear John, maybe even before you

listen to this conversation. Especially Something More, I think, is a beautiful song to start with and then Let It Burn as well. I mean, there's just so many glorious songs on here. And go and watch her video clip where she's shaving her head. And then the song Something More, the video clip for that one, sees her dancing with a group of really diverse, wonderful women and barreling the camera. And this album, I think, is so much more than just about, as she says, a breakup song. And though the themes she's discussing around emotional and psychological abuse are

incredibly real, incredibly difficult, and incredibly important to discuss, at the heart of it, I think Sam is talking about us reclaiming our power as women. And that's why this album is so special to me. I'll tell you what happened after she released it. She hit the road, toured the album in sold-out shows, and has since been invited to play alongside musicians Kate Miller-Heike, Paul Kelly, Tim Friedman, The Whitlams, and Ben Lee. It debuted at number two on the AIR Independent Album Chats. And Sam is currently touring,

playing her music, and I cannot wait to share her story with you. I will say I popped a trigger warning at the start that we do really go places in this interview. Sam shares some really difficult things that happened during the relationship she was in. And we also discussed miscarriage as well. So just go gently. There are notes below in the show notes with time codes. So if you want to listen to parts of it, but then those particularly difficult stories you'd like to skip over, you can absolutely do that. Here she is, Sam Buckingham. So I think I'll just launch in and say first up, thank you so much for your work because I just absolutely fell head over

heels for your album Dear John. I found it through Instagram like one of your ads or something popped up and it's just your sound is so unique and glorious but also the themes in your work are so fantastic and I wanted to ask you first a funny question. What does it feel like for you when you sing? Oh, what does it feel like? It feels like the freest, most expressed version of myself and it feels like I'm me. You know, there are a lot of things that I do in life that I love to do where I feel like I'm completely myself and I feel connected to myself or to nature or to source or whatever it is. But when I'm singing, I can't even really give you words for how it feels. It just feels so real and natural and normal and exactly as it should be. So there's no sort of

transcends language in a way. It's just, oh, I'm just me. Like that's what I'm here to do. So it's the same when I'm songwriting. There's not a, I mean, I could try and articulate it in a whole lot of different words and like, oh, I get excited when I feel like I've written a line that I really love or like when I sing a melody, I feel a sense of flow or fluidity. Like I could put words to it, but it's kind of not really right

to do that because it's just, it's such an innate thing that I feel like can't quite be expressed in the same way as other things that are in my life that I love and that I enjoy and that help me be who I am. It's just, it just is me. I'm just being me. She's the most beautiful way of explaining it and I think actually so mysterious and also so wonderful because that's what life is right it's all a bloody mystery and yeah when you're in that space that's kind of indescribable that's the part that has the juice that's the part that feels the truest when we are living in that space. Exactly. Where did you, when did you find that? Was that when you were sort of 16 and deciding that you wanted to make a career as a singer,

songwriter? Yeah, I think there's been points along the way that have been anchor points to remind me, but I think the first time I felt that was a lot earlier on, like a lot earlier on than when I, you know, when I was 16 and I went to my first big music festival and saw people on stage and said, I want to do that. Like, I think it happened before then. And I, I would even say one of the, one of the core moments would have been when I was about 14 and my uncle gave me, hand me down guitar for Christmas. And I'd already been writing poems and writing short stories and just using words to express like writing in my diary and stuff like that.

I was very, always very word focused. English was my favorite subject in school. Maths was my least favorite. Top of the grade in English, bottom of the grade in maths. Yeah, I would say that I was already a storyteller from a very young age like before 14 even because I'd been writing for a really really long time like primary school I was just like really intricate stories and then when I was given this guitar I just started strumming it and making chord shapes and making sounds. And I put some kind of music and melody to words that I had already previously written. And that felt like a marriage of some sort that I hadn't felt before. And that was a real

core moment for me, I think, where something made sense that hadn't made sense before and something existed that had always existed, but I hadn't been aware of before. It was just kind of, it was just a no brainer. Like I just started doing it and then I just kept doing it because it made complete sense for me to do it. And so even though I'd already been expressing myself in lots of different ways, like when I was a young, young, young kid, five years old, actually probably younger, I don't know, like around about that age, there's recordings of me singing songs and making up stories. Literally, my granddad recorded an album of me and my sister doing that.

And I was telling stories and I was singing songs and I was already performing at five. It was just so innate. And I was, you know, we'd have friends over, a family over when I was a little, little, little kid and I would put on shows and I would make everybody sit down and make everybody listen. And if anybody talked or interrupted the thing, I would stop the whole show and I would say, we got to start again. You got to watch the show. And, you know, by the time I left school, which I did when I was about 16, I left school

and I went and lived with another friend's family and I was singing songs for them. They called me Sam FM every night after dinner. They'd say, Sam FM, Sam FM, Sam FM. And I would get out my guitar and I would sing songs for them. And it just seemed like such a normal thing for me to do. So it's kind of just been there. But I think that in that moment when I married the storytelling that I had naturally been doing and the singing and the performing that I had naturally been doing

with that um that focus on writing creating something out of the music and out of the stories that's when it all kind of clicked I find that so fascinating because I feel that so deeply. And so much of what you said is very similar to who I was when I was a kid, when mum and dad have guests come over, I'd be like, it's the time for the show. You're not having dinner. You're going to come and sit and watch Claire play some songs that she's written on the piano. And I said to mum one the other day, I'm like, why did you make us perform and she's like I never made you perform you like demanded and I had to sit there we just wanted to have a chat and there I am like singing my little heart out I just I find it so you and me he's in the same

part yeah and I I just I love that idea that we're just born with these kind of wonderful, you know, this fire in your belly about the thing that you love to do. Have there been points in your life where you felt like that's been too much or people haven't responded in a way that's like, put on the FM it's more like can the Sam FM please stop yes countless times lots and lots of times and in lots of different ways as well so definitely the feeling that it was too much I've experienced that on and off throughout the course of my career pretty much ever since I started playing gigs one of the first times I remember feeling that that was when I did a I did a huge series of house

concerts. It was pretty early on, I think in my career, I would have been like mid-20s or something like that. And I did all these house concerts all around the country. It was crazy. I did like 20, 30, I don't know, a lot of house concerts. Just me and my car driving to people's houses that I didn't know and singing my song. My mum was like, I don't think that's safe. Nah, we'll be fine. It was fine. She made me get a copy of everyone's driver's license and I texted her the address before I got to the gig just in case I got killed and chopped up in the back garden so she'd know where to send the cop. But it was all fine. There were no crazies and I remembered that

being such an incredible experience and and so eye-opening and so fulfilling and also I found myself feeling really exhausted at the end of each gig because what I realized in that really intimate space was when you open up and you are vulnerable and intimate about yourself and open and sharing your own stories and your own feelings and your own thoughts and giving so much on stage, then people really connect in a certain way and then want to connect in the same way with you off the stage. And that I've found over the years, I've back and forth, back and forth, struggled with that because it's something I naturally want to do. I naturally want to connect and I naturally That I've found over the years, I've back and forth, back and forth, struggled with that because it's something I naturally want to do.

I naturally want to connect and I naturally want to share stories and I naturally want to support people and be supported. And I don't deal well with small talk. I don't deal well with, you know, just kind of hanging out and having a chat. I don't know what that is. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's also emotionally really taxing to constantly be in that space of openly sharing and being vulnerable. So I think that's been something ongoingly that I've struggled with in terms of feeling like it's too much because

I'm constantly putting myself out there to be judged or criticized, but maybe even worse, to be fully seen. And that's felt really scary to have that reflected back at me and then feeling a responsibility to hold other people's sense of being seen. And that's obviously changed over time. That's morphed. And now I really see that as a true privilege. And I've learned about boundaries and I've learned about, you know, where I, where my responsibility to you starts and where it ends and, you know, knowing, okay, I'm not anybody's counselor and I'm not, I'm not here to do X, Y, Z and I'm here to do ABC. I've learned how to be present to the reality of my life and the reality

of other people's life, but not necessarily enmeshed with it. So that's been a really big thing just from my personal perspective of being so open and being such a connector. But I think also from a more practical perspective, I feel like I've been up against a lot of people's opinions on what I should or shouldn't be doing as a career path. And, you know, that's come from media messages or society's messages. It's come from some family and some friends, although most have been incredibly supportive. It's also come from ex-partners, you know, until the relationship that I'm in now with my current partner, who is incredibly supportive and just normal. Up until being with him, my relationship with other people has been very, what's the best way to describe it? I felt like I wasn't allowed

to be an artist and to be a songwriter and a storyteller, to be a touring artist and to be somebody that is so passionate about the work that I do and wanting to actually show up and work every day. I feel like, well, not I feel like, the fact of it is, is that I've been put down for that a lot and treated as though there's something wrong with me because, you know, I want to make my mark in the world and I want to express myself fully and I want to do the things that I want to do. So that's been a real hurdle for me to jump over personally and to learn that, well, people are going to have those opinions of me. And some people are going to think that I'm doing something wrong because I am who I am.

And those people are just not the people for me. And that's absolutely fine. Whereas I used to, you know, try to prove them wrong. And I don't do that anymore. Why do you think that is, that people do that to you or have done that? Why do people do that to anybody? You know, we project our own ideas onto other people, our own belief systems, our own fears, our own concept of what's available to us. And the fact of it is as well is that it is a strange career path. It

is a strange life path in a lot of ways, you know, being an artist, being a songwriter, being a storyteller, and not everybody understands that. And that's okay. I think, I think another part of it is the majority of people who have been against me being me have been people that I've been in intimate relationships with. And so I think, I think a lot of that is, I think some of it is gendered. And I think some of it is also me having a low sense of self-worth and allowing myself to stay in a situation with somebody who does not see my worth. So, you know, I don't want to, it's, that doesn't make my fault. It doesn't mean that I'm responsible for those people, you know,

being shit to me, but, but I think it's important to note that there are going to be people out there all the time who are going to say, you know, don't be you and there's something a bit wrong with you and I'm going to disrespect that and what you value and what you want to do and I'm going to actively get in the way of you being who it is you are and who you're meant to be. There's always going to be people like that. And that's not our fault. That's not our responsibility. That's not okay. But what is our responsibility is learning

how to say, oh, I recognize that you are one of those people. And those kinds of people are not allowed in my space. You don't get a ticket to, you know, the festival of Sam. So I refuse you entry. You are not allowed to tune into the station of Sam FM. I'm sorry. You are no longer worthy. Driver only. Completely. You are not worthy.

And it took me a long time. Totally. It took me a long time to learn that, that, you know, that there would always be those people. The problem was not me. The problem was that I was not recognising that was the kind of person they do not get access to me and that the problem actually lies with them and their interpretation of who I am or what I'm choosing

to do with my life, which is really none of their concern, shouldn't be any of their concern. And it strikes me that that's kind of the crux of Dear John, right? Your latest album. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Story of finding yourself and also exploring coercive control, I guess, as well.

I wanted to ask you about Rich Girl. That's the first song on the album. And I'm just going to read your lyrics back to you because I love them so much. Oh, I love that. One of them, yeah, we touched on this at the start. So, I know we were born from dust and stars. We're getting back to who we are.

Is that how you felt in writing this album, getting back to who you are? Yeah, this album was a task that I had to undertake in order to not only express my story up until then and how I was feeling and the journey that I was on in terms of healing from a relationship of coercive control and psychological and emotional abuse and looking back to all sorts of other relationships I'd been a part of and structures that I was a part of and beliefs that I had, et cetera. So there was that side of it. There was the naming that and telling stories about that. And then the other side of it was I felt like I was writing songs to help myself

build my future self. So it was almost like I had a vision for how things could be for me and how I could show up in the world and who I could have in my life and what life I could create for myself. And I was in this kind of, you know, interim period of healing from the past and creating that future. And so Dear John, I feel like is a photograph. It's like a snapshot of that time period that sits, you know, in the present moment that sits right in that space between what has happened and what's about to happen. But not just like the here and now, okay, I'm going to be present and be here for what is, but taking in all of that information,

all of the information from the past, kind of like analyzing it, integrating it, embodying it, and, you know, having my computer brain sort of, you know, sort it in some particular order so that the computer could spit out version 2.0 of my life. So, so yeah, it was very, it was very intentional making the album in that way and, and straddling the past and the future in that present moment, which was a really intense period of creating and healing and learning and growing. Most of that album was written in a two-month period and then recorded the month after. And I knew exactly what was going on for me at the time. I sort of reached a point in my own healing journey

where it was like I was just observing all of the crap that was going on inside of my head and and I was still muddling through that crap and and trying to trying to sort it all out and so I was very intentional about how I wanted to express it and then yeah right right my future. It's such an incredible gift and I know I've said that before. I think sometimes people think art, smart, like good on you, you're over there doing something but really the real serious stuff is the economy or something, you know, and actually I just think art is just the air we breathe. It's what allows people to see themselves and see where they are at the point

in their life. How did you come to realize the structure that you were a part of? When I talk about structure, I mean in the relationship that you were in, how did you come to see the matrix of it and see what was happening? Was there one particular moment or was it a gradual realization? I think it was both. So there was one particular moment or was it a gradual realization? I think it was both. So there was one particular moment in terms of the relationship that I had been in previously that ended at the end of 2019. And I pretty much went back to work straight away, even though it was this huge, dramatic, very detailed, horrible, long drawn out ending, which I am happy to go into or not go into but it was let's just say it was intense and it was dramatic and it was abusive and it was really really challenging and

then I pretty much went back to work as soon as that happened and about a month later I had a nervous breakdown and I called beyond blue because I just I I just recognized like, this is not, this is not normal. You know, I've been in breakups before and this is not that something else is happening. And I started to talk to them and they said, we would like to refer you to 1-800-RESPECT. Do you know of this service? And I said, I've kind of heard of it, but I don't know. And they said, well, everything that you're telling us, by everything that you're telling us, it sounds like you've been in an abusive relationship. So we'd like you to talk to them. And it was like this light bulb just went off in my head, like instantly. And I went, ah, okay, I'll do that then. And I called

1-800-RESPECT straight away. And I said, hi, I've just been told to call you. Beyond Blue thinks I've been in an abusive relationship. Hello, my name's Sam. And, and they just started asking me questions and I just started telling them, you know, the story. And by the end of that first call, which was about an hour, they said, you have absolutely been in an abusive relationship for several years and you need help. And so that started, you know, they referred me on to the local hospital who has a DV service. And so I started getting ongoing counseling with that particular service. But then I also called when I heard respect, like sometimes five times a day, it was so, it was just like, all of a sudden it was just this like snowball started. And I, it just kept gathering this

momentum and gathering this, this speed and gathering this size. And I was a sponge for as much information as I could possibly get because it was like a world opened up to me that I never knew existed. But as soon as the door opened, it made so much sense and I could not get enough information. And so there was definitely that one moment, but then I just continually kept getting tiny little micro bits of information that sparked something

else in my head. I went, hold on. And I started making connections and I started asking questions. And then I started reading books and listening to podcasts and following social media accounts and talking more to my counselor and talking to my friends. And it became a series of infinite moments. I couldn't even tell you how many moments you know, how many moments it was, infinite moments of light bulbs going off. And then obviously inside of that, there's this huge

rollercoaster where I felt so liberated by this knowledge that I was acquiring and by, you know, finally having language for it and being able to talk to people about it. And then also feeling so angry and feeling so afraid of what else was out there around me. And I was, you know, I would see a man and a woman on the street and have a panic attack. You know, I just, I was simultaneously liberated and freaking out. And, and then I'd go through phases of knowing it 100% to be true and being so clear and understanding it and, and, and being able to clearly articulate, you know, my own experience and what had been going on. And then one hour later, I would be saying it never happened and it wasn't true. And I made

it all up. And I was actually the abuser and I did all of these things wrong. You know, so my mind was just so overwhelmed with emotions, with information, with fear, with grief, with loss, with confusion. So I would say that it was a huge rollercoaster. It was the most intense, pretty much went on for two years, the ongoing healing and recovery and learning, and it was the biggest two years of my life. You write in Dear John the song, you had me believing it was me somehow. And I think if you don't mind, it would be helpful to tell that story in as much detail as you feel comfortable,

because I think this experience is so common for women and lots of different people. I know I have women in my life that this has happened to and they haven't seen it. Even we could see it, but they couldn't. Would that be okay to share some of that story? Yeah. You know, I want to be really careful about this. I think this is really important. So I want to articulate this really well. And I first want to say the story is different for everybody. So my story bears resemblance to so many people's stories as I have learned over the years, which has actually been quite a comfort to me to learn that I wasn't alone. But it's also been a source of a lot of anger and frustration to learn that it wasn't just me. But I have so,

I can't even tell you how many emails and DMs I get, how many people come up to me at gigs and say like, I had a John too. Like, were you writing this song about my relationship? Are you talking, do you know my John? You know, so I think everyone's story is different, but there's so many similarities in terms of, you know, the dynamics and the tactics that people can use, especially in the sense of psychological and emotional abuse, which is what I experienced. So the story kind of goes that I met this person and I was drawn to this person and we had a relationship.

It started and it was wonderful. And I just thought that I'd found the perfect person and I couldn't believe my luck. And I think it's really important for me also while I'm talking about this person and their behavior to be honest about my internal experience as well. And my internal experience when I started this relationship was I really saw that this person was somebody who I would stay with. And that was really important to me. I really wanted, I really wanted a long-term relationship. I really wanted to be safe and secure and to find my person that I would build my life with. And so as the relationship progressed and it was really good for a really long time,

probably a year and a half or something, which is, it's a different story for different people, but it was, it was really good for a long time. But when I look back, I see that small things were already happening, but in my mind it was really good relationships. So I saw small things happening as I look back in hindsight of me, me always being the person that changed my life or my goals to fit in with the other person's, which again, it's important to state like, that was my choice. I chose to do that. I was happy to do that. It fit in with what I wanted to do. But what I didn't realize at the time was that that wasn't happening reciprocally. So that was fine. I did that. We moved, we moved here, we moved there. We did a bunch of things. We traveled and everything actually went really well in the relationship until the moment that I

didn't want to change what I wanted to do to fit in with the other person. And in that moment, I can cite that moment as the first time that overt abuse happened, which in this case was him breaking a window while we were having a conversation. I wouldn't even call it an argument. I would call it like we were having a conversation and I challenged him on a couple of things and he broke a window and got mad. And while I cite that as the first overt act of abuse, when I'm now able to look back at the time before then when everything was absolutely fine, I can actually see that tiny things had happened before that overt moment of abuse, such as, you know, me going to hug him and him physically pushing me away, like forcibly

pushing me away. His tone of voice when he spoke to me, when he disagreed with something that I had said, his choice of words that when I look back, I understand that he would speak to me as though I was less intelligent than him. We would only really have sex the way he wanted to have sex. And if I asked for something else or proposed or tried to have a conversation about something in relation to that, he would shut that down very quickly and get very short with me. And I would end up feeling very uncomfortable and unsafe and just go, okay, we'll just do it how you want. So those are just a few examples. I could go on and talk about more, but when I look back, I can remember all of those things happening. And what I've learned is that those tiny things that might seem inconsequential at the time, or that we might not be able to place

our finger on, those things are actually precursors to a higher level, if you want to call it that. I mean, it's all abuse, but a higher level of abuse, which in this case was smashing the window for the first time. So that happened. And not soon after after there was another incident where I specifically said no when we were becoming intimate, no to something that he wanted to do and he kept pushing for it and I said no again and he kept pushing for it and then I got mad and I said, what the fuck, no. And he then became upset and said, oh, I'm so horrible and this, that and the other and created a scenario where I ended up comforting him and telling him that it was fine and that

it wasn't a big deal. And what I've learned about that as well is that's a really common tactic in terms of coercive control sexually so that the receiver of that doesn't feel like they're allowed to say no to you or challenge you on anything intimately. And so you end up just getting what you want. So these things, by the way, I outline, I wrote a song with a friend of mine, Sarah Humphries, it's called First Time. And I outline these things in the song, which was a really big moment for me actually to write a song where I just said, you broke a window and you did this in the bedroom. And then after that, obviously multitude of things happened in between, but I'm

just trying to get sort of like signposts. Then there was already, there had actually before all of this had happened, there had been ongoing issues with substance abuse which I had been trying to bring up with him and I was met with lying and hiding things behind my back and him getting angry at me when I tried to start a conversation about it so that kind of was a an underlying thread for a long time for the the whole time, actually, in the relationship. And then there was, I think, probably the next lamp post, signpost, whatever it is, I don't even know if that's the right word for it. After the breaking of the window and after that intimate incident, I would say the next thing was when he was out of work for a period of time. And that happens. That's fine. I was, you know, paying the rent and

supporting and he was getting increasingly angry and increasingly short with me and increasingly sort of disrespectful towards me when I would say, talk anything about work or anything about money. I remember there was one time, you know, cause he kept going on and on about how, what a horrible situation he was in and how everybody was against him and he couldn't get a job and he didn't have any money and all this kind of stuff. And I was working and paying the bills. And I said, look, we actually have enough money. Like I'm able to support us both. It's really like, I understand that you're not happy about this and that's fine. I want to support you in that, but we're actually fine. And so would it help if we made a budget for our weekly expenses

and we laid all of our money out that we have, and we actually got, you know, a visual and we had a conversation and we got across, you know, what our financial situation was. And we stuck to that every week so that we knew what money was coming in, what money was, you know, a budget, normal, normal people make budgets. And he got really angry at me and he said, you're just trying to control me. You're just trying to find another way to control me and another way to control my spending. And this is another really common tactic, whether it's related to financial or not, is an abuser will actually tell you that you're doing what they're trying to do to you. So what I learned about that particular situation was he was getting me to pay all the bills and he was spending his Centrelink money on alcohol and weed and kind of keeping it for himself.

And then if I suggested he pick up some things from the store because he was getting whatever it is, $300 a week from Centrelink, he would get mad at me for trying to take his money from him while I was paying the rent and the bills and most of the groceries and things like that. And so they flip it around and they say that you're doing the thing that they're actually doing to you. So there was that. And that was quite an ongoing, that was quite an ongoing thing. And then there was, there was an ongoing issue about whether or not we would have children. And I've never really been someone that has wanted to have children. I love kids. I love my nieces and nephews. I love being an auntie. And I've ongoingly considered having children, but I've never made a decision about what I want to do about that. And so that was an ongoing thing. And this particular level of abuse went on for about two years where he would tell me

that I had to decide what I wanted to do so that he knew what he was going to do with his life. And I said, well, actually, it's a choice for us to make together. I could have children or I could not have children. And I think I could be really happy either way. So this is a decision that I want to make with my partner. And he would tell me that it was my decision to make on my own. And he refused to have any conversations with me about it.

So I would go back and I would battle and try to figure it out because he was putting a lot of pressure on me to decide. And he was constantly telling me, you know, you're getting older and we're going to run out of time and you have to make a decision. But he didn't want to play a part in that conversation. So I would go away and do all of the work and try to figure it out, completely confused and without my partner, I'm doing that in quotation marks, to make the decision with. And then I would go to him and say, okay, I actually think that I've decided and this is my decision.

And he would say, I don't want to do that. I want to do the other, the opposite. And so it would be this constant back and forth. And then I go, okay, well, let's talk about that. And he wouldn't talk about it with me. So there was this constant back and forth. And then I go, okay, well, let's talk about that. And he wouldn't talk about it with me. So there was this constant back and forth about that. And basically if I said, okay, yeah, I would like to have children, then he would say, I don't want to have children.

Then if I said, I'm really feeling like I'm not sure if I want to, I don't actually think that it's for me, he would say, you're not committed to me and you're not nurturing, you know, you're not a loving person. And so I couldn't win either way. And then it reached a point where he said, I want to have kids. I've decided that I want to have kids. And I said, okay, let's have a family. And like, let's just put this into context here because people might be listening and be like, wow, she was just like doing whatever he said and following. And like, this guy sounds like a joke. It's like, yeah, like all of these incremental things happen over time. Like I've given you such a broad overview snapshot of this

situation, but you have to understand that like tiny, tiny, tiny things happen. It's like death by paper cut. You know, like you get a paper cut, it's like paper cut, get a paper cut, paper cut, paper cut. And then all of a sudden you realize you've got paper cuts all down the right vein of your arm and you're bleeding to death, you know? So I think it's really important for people to understand this because a lot of people say like, why, why did you stay in that situation? Or that doesn't even sound that bad or whatever, but you have to understand the compounding effect of all of these tiny things. And then you also have to understand when somebody is staying, once it gets to like a level where any outsider would look in and be like, that's ridiculous. Why are you still there? It's because there's been enough, it's all been little things,

but they're in the middle of that. There's been enough good things that keep you believing that it's going to be good. And I think this is the thing that a lot of people don't understand necessarily about abuse, whether that's physical abuse, emotional abuse, psychological, financial, spiritual, sexual, you know, it's so much more complicated than just this person is abusing you because in the exact same breath, they'll tell you how shit you are and how much they love you. And it becomes really confusing for the brain. And the brain actually becomes so overwhelmed with all of the conflicting information. It can't actually process it properly and it doesn't know what's real and what's not real. And I definitely got to that

point. And so we got to the point where he came to me and he said, okay, I've decided that I want to have kids. And I said, okay, great. Let's have kids. I was so relieved that a decision had been made. He said, you know, let's just do it. And I, I felt so relieved that finally I had said yes to that. And that meant that I was a normal person because he had made me believe over the last two years that there was something really wrong with me, that I was having a difficult time making that decision and that I wasn't quite swinging in one direction or one direction, which I've since learned is so freaking normal for so many people. You know, it's a big life decision and it's even more difficult to make when something inside of you

knows that you're in a situation that's not ideal. So that happened and I actually fell pregnant and I very quickly got prenatal depression and it was really intense. I went from being pretty stoked to being suicidal overnight, and I wanted to throw myself off a cliff. I wanted to eat something with all sorts of horrible bacteria in it to poison the baby. I wanted to stab myself in the stomach. It was really intense mental illness that was sudden and confusing. And of course he provided absolutely no support during that time. So I got to the point where it was so bad that I decided to have a termination. And during this whole time, I came home after the doctor from my first appointment and I was crying on the couch and I said, I need your help.

Something is really wrong with my brain. I don't know what to do. And he just screamed at me. I was sobbing, asking for his help. And he just stood there screaming at me. And like, this is an example of what I had been dealing with. This is like a magnified example of what I had been dealing with, you know, over the course of our relationship.

I go to him and I'm like, hey, here's this joyful thing that I want to celebrate with you. And he would stone face me or, hey, here's this thing I'm struggling with. Can we talk about it? And he would say, oh, you're just, you know, making things up or at least this, that or the other. Other people have it worse than you. Or I would go to him and say, like, let's go and do this nice thing today. And he would just say, I don't want to spend time with you. You know, so this was just like a magnified version of what I had been dealing with on all sorts of different levels for a long time. And it went up and down and back and forth and all the way around and all sorts of things.

And I ended up having a miscarriage the day before my abortion was booked in. And I was incredibly relieved. And I had to take take I can't remember what the name of the medicine is but it was an incomplete miscarriage so I had to take medicine home to complete the miscarriage so that I could actually like not birth but I don't know the better word for it the the fetus and so I did that and he was there and provided no emotional support in fact at one time I asked him if he could please put the iPad away and be there with me. And he got angry at me. There was blood all over the sheets. And

I asked him, you know, afterwards, obviously, and I asked him, you know, could you please just pop them in the wash? And he got angry about that. The next morning he said, I'm going to go and stay with a friend. And he left. Then it was this back and forth. He actually, he left me. I'd left him already a couple of years before then. I'd left him and gone back to him after he sent me a series of emails telling me how horrible I was to him and very convincingly.

And so I went back to him after that and we were together for another couple of years. He left and then he told, after him being away, I can't remember how long it was for a week or something like that, he said, you know, I don't want to do this anymore. I can't trust you. You're not committed to me and I begged him to come back to me and to change his mind and that went on for a couple of weeks and then he eventually said, no, I'm leaving. And I was devastated. I was completely devastated. I thought that I'd lost everything. And this is another thing that I think is really important to talk about is that everyone says to me, congratulations for getting out of that. Congratulations for leaving. And I say, I didn't leave. He left me. And there's this conception

that like, you know, a woman or whoever it is decides, you know, to leave an abusive relationship. It doesn't always look that way. He left calling me the abuser. And that was incredibly psychologically wacky and took me a long, long, long, long, long time to navigate and to figure out. And so I think like in terms of, you know, sharing my story or pieces of my story, the thing that I think is really important is that abuse doesn't necessarily look like you think that it's going to look like.

It doesn't always look like it looks like in the movies or, you know, in the information pamphlets. I thought that abuse meant, you know, a husband hits his wife. That's the only understanding I had of domestic violence. And it was like astounding to me when I started talking to a domestic violence specialist and she said, all of these things that you're talking about all count as domestic violence. There's a name for this. This is emotional abuse.

There is a name for this. This is psychological abuse. There's a name for this. It's financial abuse, sexual abuse as well, you know, inside of my own relationship, which I never even considered would be an option. I never even considered that the person that I was in an intimate relationship with would do anything that was not in my best interests. And so everything that happened, I assumed that it was because I had done something wrong. Because why else? Why else would that happen with somebody who says, I love you? Why else would that happen with somebody who says I love you? Why else would

that happen with somebody who says I want to marry you? And so why did I make this album? I made this album because I think that if I realized that if I had been in this relationship for so long and I had thought that I was the problem and that all of these tiny things have been happening and I didn't tell anybody about them because I felt a sense of needing to protect my abuser and I felt a sense of needing to look after my partner who was struggling with mental health issues. Who else? Who else is in that situation? And I battled for a really long time with understanding that mental health issues and abuse are not necessarily two things that have to go together. And one is one thing and one is another. And I made a lot of excuses as I sing in Dijon, I made excuses for you, you wouldn't make for yourself. I made a lot of excuses for

him based on his mental health. That's a farce. I remember one counsellor on the 1-800-RESPECT line saying to me once, she said, who else do you know who deals with depression and anxiety? And I listed a few people and she said, do those people do these things to you? And she listed a bunch of things that he had done. And I said, no, none of them do that. And she said, well, just because you have a mental health issue, it does not mean that you abuse people. And that was like a huge light bulb moment for me. And what I realized as well, because I struggled with my mental health for two years after

all of this happened, I realized that I too had a mental health issue for two years ongoingly and I never abused anybody. So that's a little bit of the story. Is that what you were looking for? Just some light listening. Oh my goodness. I think, Sam, I just think, fuck, you are strong and incredibly powerful to have got to the point where you are at. And I heard you say when I went and saw you live that an audience member came up to you and said how much they could see the work that you've done on yourself when you were performing these songs.

That meant a lot to me. I could totally see that. But the thing that I think is the most impressive is that as you are healing yourself, you are allowing other people to heal through your music. And I think that that is a gift and a half, sister. Gosh, this dog keeps barking and driving us crazy, honestly. But I really am so grateful. Can you tell us about something more because I think that's one

of my favorite songs on the album and I love the line where you say I believe in something more I'm naked and I'm fighting for the truth behind the lies I tell myself where did that song kind of come from well that particular line like I really did feel naked. I was just like all stripped bare and legitimately fighting for the truth. And I think like where I say the truth behind the lies I tell myself, that line is really referencing, you know, all of the things that I believed to be true or that I had learnt along the course of my life that I no longer wanted

to take as the truth anymore. And that's really what the whole song is about. It actually took a long time to write that song. I tried like five or six times to write that song and I knew exactly what I wanted to say, but to actually craft the words in the way that I wanted to craft them and get the melody to punctuate that the way that I wanted, you know, that was a lot. That was a lot of work and it was really important to me to get that right. The song for me is about, well, you know how I was saying before about the whole album

was about bringing myself into my future self. I think something more is like the flag in that idea. You know, like that song for me is me saying, well, here's what I know and here's what I've seen and here's where I'm at. But I believe in something more like I believe in my future. I believe that I can create something where that world doesn't exist for me and where I'm creating a better world for other people as well. And what's really interesting for me about that concept that came out of that song

is the Dijon tour. So it's going to continue into 2023, but it's now the beginning of October, 2022. And I've just finished 26 dates of the first sort of run of shows. And on the very last weekend, it was, I did a Friday, Saturday, Sunday night, Sunday night gigs. And on the Friday night I stood on stage and I realized I was telling a story. And all of a sudden I realized that I didn't need to keep telling the story of John in order to heal myself. I realized that the process of writing the songs, pre-production, recording the songs, making the videos, going on tour, telling the stories, meeting people,

hearing their stories, I realized that the whole process of that had helped me to heal something and to actually create something more for myself. You know, I look at my life now versus when I wrote that song, which was in, well, it was around about May or June 2020. It was May or June 2020 that I wrote that song. And it's now October 2022. And I literally wrote it looking forward to my future self saying, there's something better for you.

And I'm going to make that happen for you through this song and through this album and through this process of healing. And I see now, two years later, that that's exactly what happened. And so for me, that song is so powerful, not only in like what it helps people, and including me, to feel at the time of hearing it or singing along to it or whatever it is, but to me, that shows that you can. Like that song is like a complete package of evidence

that you can actually like choose how you want things to be no matter what they've been in the past no matter what you've had to deal with or overcome or heal from or whatever it is no matter what has been existing for you in the past you can still choose your future and it takes work it takes luck it takes a lot of mess on your face. I'm not saying that it's easy or I'm not saying that like everything is equally accessible to everybody. I understand there's so many nuances inside of that. But as a general rule, whatever has been existing in the past, all it does is informs whatever

can exist in the future. It does not guarantee what will exist in the future. And that is really what Something More is about for me. And like, if you watch the video, I stated facts at the end, you know, facts for women that relate to perceptions of women that relate to violence committed against women that relate to financial situations of women. I believe that these things incrementally change through our actions. And we might not necessarily see as a big, you know, we look out into the world and we're like, oh my God, things are so fucked. Like, you know, everything is still happening. Yes,

that's absolutely true. And incremental change is happening every single day because people are taking action. And that happens first on the personal level and then it ripples out. And so that's what that song is about for me. I think that you've got to the crux of what I believe about things, which is that when we can see it internally in ourselves first, when we have that vision, that's where it starts. That's where the change starts. It's not like we make all these changes to then get to some unknown point. We have to be able to see it, right? And then it can kind of

come into being. And I think for some reason, particularly I will say for women in my experience, there's a lot more barriers for us around being able to articulate what we want and then chase it and not feel ashamed or embarrassed or like we're not worthy of it, or we should be looking after everyone else first. And you brought a beautiful book that's really special to me actually during your gig, which blew me away because I thought, I mean, obviously everyone's read, so many people in this space have read Untamed by Glendon Doyle. So I'm not alone in this at all, but I think her book is like a key, right? That kind of unlocks that idea. What is that book to you?

Well, firstly, I'll say like, I totally agree with you about like, you know, you have to be able to see it and then you go and create it. But I also think sometimes we can't see it, but if we can trust that even if we can't see it, it's there, then that's just as powerful. And I, I did a lot of that in that two years. I was like, I, I don't actually see it, but enough people are telling me that it's there. So I'm just going to trust them. I'm going to like go forth. So I think that's why people like Glennon Doyle is super important and super powerful in this world, because sometimes we can't see it yet.

The path does not look clear to how things could be, but we know that they could be different. And so we need people to tell their stories in order for us to help clear our own way to be able to see our path forward. And, you know, people telling their own stories helps with that first step of trusting that there is another story available if we choose or if we want. And so that book for me is, I found it so powerful because she's really just telling her own story, but she's putting it in this context of a bigger picture of women being caged. And how do I say this? Because she puts it so well, but I don't want to like, just copy what she said. Like if, if you're in a cage and you've been in a cage your whole life, you think that that's where

you live. You think you have to live in the cage. Cause that's, you've always lived in a cage and people are like, Oh, look at you. You're so beautiful in that cage. And you're like, okay, cool. Well, I don't like it that much, but everyone else seems to think it's good. So it's probably fine. You know? And I think like, you know, going. Well, I don't like it that much, but everyone else seems to think it's good, so it's probably fine, you know. And I think like, you know, going back to what I was saying about, you know, the situation with my ex and not knowing what I was living inside of, I think a lot of us are in that boat. I think a lot of us are in that boat as women, but also maybe in our careers,

maybe in our family situations. Maybe, maybe, that's not a word. Maybe it's maybe. Maybe with our health, maybe with our lifestyle choices, you know, we are products of the information that we have been given and the things that we've been exposed to colliding with our personalities. And our personalities, maybe we can't change so much, but the information that comes in, we can. And the things that we're exposed to, we can. And the environment, we can. And so books like Untamed expose us to another way of thinking and another way of being and then it's up to us

we choose then how we use that in our own lives you know she's not putting out a recipe for anybody else to live their life and I think that's what's really powerful about it she's not saying do this do this do this do this do this and you'll be fine because that's not up to her that's not up to anybody except for me and that's like dynamic and shifts every single day, ongoingly, according to all sorts of different factors, right? So what all she's doing really in Untamed is presenting her story and her truth. And she's saying, you know, take it if it makes sense for you. And of course it makes sense because her truth is everybody else's truth because we've all been living in a cage and we just thought that's where we lived but now there's you know so many women coming through and so many

people in the feminist movement coming through and saying oh by the way this kill this cage like they just built it and like we can actually dismantle it if we want and and the the way that that is done like one of the first steps of that being able to occur is through people telling their own personal stories because we cannot do it on our own thinking that we are the only person struggling with this. There is such value. There is such power in women and in people coming together and saying, we are stronger together.

We have shared experiences. We have shared stronger together. We have shared experiences. We have shared frustrations. We have shared issues. We're going to work together to solve those. But it's much more convenient for the patriarchy to put us all in our own separate cages and for us to think that that's how we're supposed to live. And patriarchy works by pitting women against each other by telling us that we need to compete with each other for the limited space that is available to us or the limited male attention that is available to us or the limited financial resources that are available to us or whatever it is and they know they know that when we actually come together, we're fucking terrifying to them.

So they don't want that. They just want to keep us in our cages. And so, you know, one person is in their cage and she's like, oh, hey, by the way, I'm in a cage. Are you in a cage over there? And then someone's like, yeah, hey, I'm in a cage too. And then you start talking about the cages that you're in and then you're like, what tools have you got?

Oh, well, I've got this, like, belt. I can start, like, soaring away at one of my my bars and the other one's like, oh, cool. Well, I've got this shoe and I'm like, I don't know, I'm just making shit up now. And when I'm done with my tool, I'll throw it over to you and you throw your tool over to me and then we'll eventually both break open. And that's how it works.

And so I think like that's what Untamed means to me.'s like she's she's sharing you know her story and the tools that she has in her toolkit and in in order for us all to benefit from that and that's that was such an inspiration for why I chose to make Dijon as well it's like I want to do that I want to share my story and I want to share my tools and you know people can take what they want and leave what they don't want but some people will benefit from that and that's you know what else am I want to share my tools and, you know, people can take what they want and leave what they don't want, but some people will benefit from that. And that's, you know, what else am I here to do? Yeah. That's what this show is for me too. Yeah. It's like, have you got a story? I've got some stories. What about this weird thing that's happened to me? Has it happened to you? Yeah. And that's it, right? Yeah. That's it. That's everything. I think, you know, and also

actually I will say this too, which I think you've done beautifully in's it. That's everything. I think, you know, and also actually I will say this too, which I think you've done beautifully in this episode. It's also education. It's educating women about things that happen to women, you know, and not just women to non-binary people as well, but we're particularly looking at women as that's the majority of people affected by what we were discussing today. And I, I think think that, for instance, I experienced a miscarriage and I'm so sorry that that happened to you as well. I'm sorry it happened to you too. Regardless of how and regardless of whether it's a pregnancy

that is wanted or not wanted, the physicality of it shocked me to my core and no one in the process told me it would be like that even and even sort of said to me oh stay home it'll be all right it'll be like a heavy period and women said that to me too you know it'll be like heavy period it No. Anyone's going around having that period, like, you know, I'm sorry for them. Like that's not what it is. Yeah. No, that's not what it is.

And, no, you need to go and see someone. And I think that experience and subsequently having kids and all of those things, There were so many things along the way where I hadn't realized the experience of other women until something shocking like that happened. And I realized there wasn't as much infrastructure and education about my lived experience that there could have been. Totally. And I don't want other women to end up in that situation. Totally. Yeah.

And I don't really have a question other than that, does that resonate with you? No, it totally resonates. And I really experienced that when I was experiencing the prenatal depression as well, which there was a good amount of support for. I spoke to Panda a lot, which is a helpline specifically for that. But aside from that, I really struggled to find helpful, like specific to me, helpful information, resources and support to help me navigate this incredibly intense, confusing

thing that I was going through. And Panda were incredible, as I said, and there were some good articles to read online and stuff, but it seemed at the time. And when I looked back, I was like, wait a second, I don't understand. These people are telling me that this is incredibly common and that like, I can't remember the statistic, but so many women experience postnatal depression. If it's so common, why is it so hard for me to get help and information around it why am I struggling so much to understand it and why is it that all of the women that I'm speaking to about this don't know what really what to say or how to support me with it and like that's not a nothing against them whatsoever it's like it's the system that's failing us, you know, the language around it just isn't there in the communities that

you would naturally go to, to get the support, you know, and my, my friends and my family were absolutely supportive and absolutely helpful, but they didn't have the education and the information around it either, even though some of them had experienced it themselves. And so I really saw this gap in, it was such an eye opener in the gap between what women need and what women receive. And not only in that pregnancy space or the motherhood space, but that was kind of my entry point, I guess, to understanding that. And then, you know, then everything happened when I, and I learned about the abuse and I, and I started to see another gap, like, wait, wait a second.

All these people are telling me that like this ridiculous amount of women have experienced this. And yet I didn't know anything about it. And no women in my life recognized the signs and saw it. And no one was able to like uncode when I said something to them about my abusive person no one was able to go hold on a second that sounds like this thing like let's have a conversation about that and so there's this gap between what women are constantly experiencing and what women need regularly and what is available to them and And that seems to be, now that I'm learning about it, pretty much across the board. So yes, I absolutely resonate with that. And I would even go so far as to say that I don't think I have quite wrapped my head around the miscarriage yet and what happened

and how I experienced that. And I tried to get support for that and I just couldn't find something that really felt helpful. So, yeah, I think it's a big issue. I think it's a huge issue and I'm not entirely sure what to do about it, to be honest. No, I completely agree with you. Yeah, I don't know either because, you know, you feel like there should be all these wise, sage women

and experts sort of to come in and I do think part of it is you're exactly right you articulated it so well the gap between what we're experiencing and what is available and what we actually need because it's it's deeper it's more spiritual I think than some of the things that are available. And I agree. For me, I sought help after the miscarriage. It was very traumatic and I ended up passing out and in an ambulance and, you know, three in the morning. It was like giving birth for me. I've had two kids and it was as physical as giving birth,

which I had not been prepared for. And isn't everyone's experience either? I think that's the other part of it. Everyone's experiences are so different because they're all so unique. But that was a shock to me to have that kind of physical blood loss and the contractions and going, I went into a really primal space that I was like being taken over by some kind of creature, which was so like I just was sitting in bed with some, yeah,

I was sitting in bed with some ibuprofen and a hot water bottle and a giant surfboard pad thinking this is the most, this is going to be the miscarriage. And I ended up very far away from that woman with her little hot water bottle and her little flannels. Like Jesus. Yes. It was, and I look back on it now and it happened you know it was like five years ago for me it was a long time but I'm still processing it and women in my life have had not just one they've had like lots and I've spoken to a woman who's who's had 18 and I can't I just can't fathom that right yeah wow how do you do that and we just need to talk about it more I think

that's part of it and I I don't know if this is true for you but for me which is why your album is such a gift is it's also we need to see more art representative of these really primal experiences of women I feel like for me, seeking medical help and seeking professionals has been helpful and a psychologist and talking about those things, but seeing art and hearing music for me, it heals something at a different kind of level and connecting with other women that have had those experiences. Yeah, that's interesting that you say that, because I think I definitely reached a point where words were no longer enough, like understanding my experience intellectually or having talk therapy or, you know, writing about it, singing about it. Like there's so much value in that. I don't want to discount that at all. There's so

much value in that. But I recognized there was a different layer that could only be reached through art, through music, through embodied experiences, through that which cannot quite be explained. I think that everything in life is spiritual, right? Some things that happen in life ask for more of a spiritual understanding. And I think things like this, when we're talking about the loss of life that literally was inside of our body and in my case, understanding the dynamics and the complexities of what I had gone through in my relationship, those are things that affect your spirit. Those are things that affect your soul. Those are things that affect your soul. Those are things that the brain computes in a certain way and sends messages to the body.

And we carry ourselves differently. We relate to the rest of the world differently. And it's not something I think that we're necessarily always supposed to be making sense of. It's something that we can feel in new ways in order to make friends with it, in order to feel safe inside of it, in order to not feel alone inside of it, in order to understand the bigger picture of it. And so I think that's where that art, spirituality, you know, physical embodiment side comes in because you can't do that through words. You

can only do that through flow state, through feeling, through being out of your brain, out of words and inside of something much greater than that. It's that idea of feeling your way through that pain. To me, the things that have happened in my life that have been traumatic, the only way through has been to really feel it. And where I've got in trouble is where I've tried to numb that in whatever form that is. And I noticed that in myself, the times in my life where I've been the furthest from me have been the times where I've been trying not to feel. And I can track that too around how much art and music I'm listening to and how much time I'm spending in nature. So it's like the further away I get

from those things, the further away I am from myself, the more I'm eating chocolate, you know, numbing, doing all the things we do. Judging other people, gossiping, alcohol, whatever it is. Yep. That makes so much sense to me. I really, really resonate with that. I think that's so right. And I think that so much of that is like we're kind of a little bit not, I wouldn't say taught to respond to things in that way,

but those things are so available to us and give us that quick hit of feeling better that our system says, great, I feel better, and we just constantly pile on top of that and we almost have to like hack our own systems I think and and and I think this is where mindfulness practice for me anyway really comes in is like you know I I reach I reach for my laptop to binge on whatever it is and I go okay is this actually what I want to serve and to energize and to enliven me and enrich in my life? Is this what I want in this moment or is there something else that will actually lift me higher,

that will actually ground me deeper? And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with, you know, binging or eating chocolate. Chocolate, by the way, is my favorite food group. Like there's absolutely nothing wrong with all of those things. It's just learning to ask the question like what is going to serve me? What is my highest service? And a lot of that comes back to, you know, doing the work on understanding your values and your vision for your own life. And this thing that I've been doing recently is like, you know,

because it's nearly the end of the year. I'm reassessing. I'm making my plans for next year in terms of my work, my career. And so I've been asking myself just from a work perspective, when have I felt the happiest? When have I felt the most fulfilled? When have I felt the freest? What have I enjoyed the most? When have I felt stuck?

When have I felt not creative? When have I felt, you know, and so, you know, you end up with this list and you do it in your personal life as well, with relationships, like, you know, you look at your home life and you think like, when have I felt safe? When have I felt comfortable? When have I felt joyful being inside my house? When have I, what people have I spent time with that have, you know, where I've left and I felt more alive? What people have I spent time with where I've left and felt dead inside? You know, asking these questions and using those as, you know, markers on a roadmap and saying, okay, cool, more of this, less of that. This in

that way, this only in this circumstance. This with that person, but not with that person. And I think there's so many things available to us. Everything is available to us. And our system is constantly asking us for the easiest route to feeling good. The easiest. We are energy conserving machines. Our brain, our body, it wants the easiest calories it can get. It wants the easiest pleasure it can get. It wants the easiest sense of status and reward it can get. That's kind of the way that we're built. And so it's up to us then to use our humanly evolved conscious mind because we're so evolved. It's up to us to use that and to use our mindfulness skills and to say, okay, well, my system is trying to do this

but what does my higher self want? What does my higher self need? And how does my higher self want me to show up as a human being in this moment? And, you know, I think the more we can make choices from that space, it's obvious then it's like a no-brainer. We start to choose art. We start to choose nature.

We start to choose wholesome foods. We start to choose wholesome people because we're asking ourselves these questions and we're like, well, duh, I felt like shit with that person and I felt great with that person, you know, and, oh, that person felt good in this circumstance, but the rest of it is like, you know, you write your pros and cons list and you're like, so we have to, we have to be, we have to get really, I don't know. I think there's this really cool, is it a dichotomy? I don't know if that's the right word, but for me, like, I feel like my life is just this awesome dance between the analysis of the mind and the embodiment of the spiritual. And, you know, if you can get, if you can get that right, and you can be willing

to like really look at things like a scientist of your own life, what worked, what didn't work, what feels good, what doesn't feel good. When do I feel healthy? When do I feel unhealthy? When do I feel high? When do I feel low? When do I feel grounded? When do I feel real? When do I feel like I'm like myself? When do I feel fully expressed? Where do I feel stuck? When do I feel low? When do I feel grounded? When do I feel real? When do I feel like I'm like myself? When do I feel fully expressed? Where do I feel stuck? You analyze that and you think about that and you are willing to ask those questions and challenge yourself in that sense, but then also willing to connect with that which you cannot know. I think that the marriage of those two, they come together in this beautiful dance and we can actually really create our day-to-day life and our bigger picture life in a really powerful way. I completely agree. And I think there's something sort of circling back to the very beginning of

our conversation in talking about people. When you're in that space and you're becoming healthier and more connected and more fully you, and I would say more fully alive and aware and also eating chocolate. And sometimes I'm sure watching like reality TV. Oh, yeah. You know, no one's bloody perfect and walk around being the Dalai Lama or something. You're not even heat perfect. We're not going for perfect. We're not.

No, we're just like, like being able to experience our lives, right? And I think making and creating however that looks for people and that flow state is a huge part of it. And there is something that happens where people who aren't in that space for whatever reason kind of pop out like the wolf in Little Red Riding Hood completely. But also they want something from you, right? Yes, they do, Sam. But they do, they want something from you. They want to take your delicious cakes and leave you with nothing. Yeah. And I actually, I've written a song about this exact thing, especially after I had my first child, I felt like I came up

against a lot of people who were trying to help, but steering me away from myself. And I can't really articulate it more than that but just that I felt really lost and at sea for a really long time. And I never was diagnosed with postnatal depression but I very much am wondering about that now in hindsight, particularly as I wrote this song and a friend said, oh, so you've written a song about postnatal depression. And I looked at it and I looked at her and I was like, no, it's just a song about when my son was born.

And she sort of looked back at me and I thought, okay, so maybe not everyone felt that miserable. And I just, you know, and I love my son. He's amazing. And it's been this incredible gift too. But, you know, it is interesting to me that to be aware of that, I guess, that people don't always have your best interest at heart and especially when you're someone and you have a line in your album that you like

to believe that everyone is good. And, God, that hit so deeply for me because I thought that which sounds really twee and like I genuinely just thought everyone is a good person sometimes they fuck up but really they're a good person but that isn't actually always the case or they're a good person going through something and projecting it onto you and either way the boundaries that you're talking about I think so powerful yes yeah and and that's really where that line came from like because the the exact line is I'm guilty of believing that everyone's good and the reason I wrote it like that is because I was battling at

the time of asking like what did I do wrong like what did I do wrong that meant this person did all of this stuff? Or like, what did I do wrong that made me this horrible person? And I had to shift that guilt. And so I was like, okay, well, what if I say that I'm guilty of this one thing? I'm guilty of believing that everyone's good, because what that does is that I understand my responsibility in that, in that I have to change what I know and what I believe and, you know, my boundaries, but I'm not taking on the guilt that he would so much have liked me to take on, which was the guilt of his actual behavior. And I think like, for me, boundaries has become like, you know, the word of my life. And I used to really be afraid. I would say that I didn't know that boundaries were a thing. I didn't really understand that word. I didn't really

know that it existed. I didn't have an awareness of it, but the concept of it terrified me. Like the concept of saying no, and I wanted to say no or yes to that, or yes, but with these conditions. And like I didn't, I've spent so much of my life not wanting to be bossy and not wanting to be controlling and not wanting to be mean or make people feel bad. And I always associated setting boundaries with those things, like that it was a negative thing like that if you because I think my experience had been you know people saying no but being like no or you know like telling me off for something and like that was what I sort of thought a boundary was and I didn't really understand up until a couple of years ago and it's been a big process

of learning and I'm still in it and I think I'll be practicing my whole life this big process of learning that boundaries are actually this beautiful thing that can create connection with the right people and create intimacy and depth and that can create a fulfilling scenario in your work life and that can create abundance and freedom. And when I started to wrap my head around that concept, that they weren't a negative thing that I have to impose on somebody else, that instead they were an invitation for somebody in my life or something in my life to relate to me in a certain way, that that person was actually free to accept or not accept. When I started to understand that as a concept and started to practice under that, like viewing it through that lens, everything

started to change for me. So I was no longer afraid to say no because I didn't want to upset people. Instead, I understood that it was a loving thing to say no, loving for me and loving for the other person because I recognized that if I didn't do that, I would become a resentful bitch face. So it was like, well, you either get boundararied Sam or you get Resentful Bitchy Sam. And I would certainly much prefer to present Boundaried Sam to you and for us to remain friends. So like understanding like the cost, you know, because we fear setting boundaries because we think there's this great cost

and that we're going to lose people or that we're going to lose opportunities or that we're going to lose whatever it is and reframing that and understanding that when we set boundaries we actually open the door to greater connection greater opportunities because you know you say no to one thing and that means you're free to say yes to the next five things that feel aligned for you. You know, you say no to a friend asking a favor and you avoid doing it for them and feeling resentful and then not wanting to hang out with them because you feel like they've taken something from you. I mean, once I started to understand it through that lens, like it started to make it so much

easier. And I think for me, like boundaries are a practice in self-love ongoingly. The more I practice them, the deeper I go into my own infinite capacity to love myself and my own infinite capacity to not love myself if I so choose. And it's a really, it's a really wacky, interesting ride because it's so dynamic and it changes depending on the person or the circumstance or what's at stake. And I feel like I'm constantly having to, you know, check back in with myself and, and ask, you know, what, what's the boundary required here? But understanding that they're a positive thing is like, that was next level for

me. I couldn't believe it. I didn't, didn't ever cross my mind that it could be a positive thing. Last question. Cause I know I've taken up so much of your time. I could ask you a thousand questions. I could just talk to you all day. Oh my God. I have so many questions, but anyway, I'll try and reign it in. Why do you think it is so radical for women or for you specifically to choose self-love? Wow. I didn't know this was going to be my answer, but I actually think it's because I wasn't taught how. And so it feels like a rebellion.

And it is because of, you know, all the structural stuff and, you know, all that stuff that we could talk for hours about. But when I look at it in a really super basic form, the education around self-love was not there. I'm not going to say is not there because there's so much more that's available to us now, but now we're battling with unlearning a bunch of stuff, you know, and I, it feels radical radical it feels like a rebellion because of the structural issues that are in place because of the ongoing oppression of women and the ongoing ways in which we are told and taught to not love ourselves that's a really big deal obviously that you know you can't answer that question without at least mentioning that. But if I wanted to strip it back to its most basic form,

I just didn't know. And so it feels like such a rebellion because I'm doing things that are opposite to what I've known to be true for so long. And I've been told that I shouldn't by different people and by different messages. And so it feels like such a rebellion because I've accepted those people as authority figures, whether they're people I've been in relationships with, the media, whatever. I've accepted those people as authority figures.

So it feels like it's so radical and it's such a rebellion because you're literally going against what the authority figures have told you and you're doing it blindly because you don't have the education around what it is. And then the cool thing about that is that when I realized, because I said you, but I'm not really talking about me, when I realized that those people actually were not authorities in my life at all, then interestingly, I started to feel way less rebellious and it started to feel way less radical. And that was a really interesting thing to start to experience where at first I was like, whoa, I am going so far against the grain here. Like what is happening? Like this is wild.

Like wow, I am just loving myself sick. I cannot believe this. Like can everybody see this is happening? Like whoa, I'm such a badass, you know. Look at me going against all the authority figures. Look at me going against all of the way things are. But then, like, you do it enough times and you filter out enough of the bullshit and enough of the people

that subscribe to the bullshit. Once you start to do it enough times and you filter that out enough, then all of a sudden you're just, like, singing a totally enough times and you filter that out enough then all of a sudden you're just like singing a totally different tune and you're like this isn't radical this is normal what the fuck is wrong with the rest of you you're not authority figure who the fuck do you think you are like this is laughable what is wrong with you and so like the whole perspective just totally shifts and it's no like it's no longer this like massively radical act it's just like it's so fucking normal and can everybody else just get on board and the people who are the people who want to push up against that self-love

or that self-respect or that boundary itself or that like just joyful expressive self or just that person that's just showing up and doing their job in a normal way or being a normal person or whatever it is the people who want to push back against that the more and more you practice the more and more you're just like I've got no time for you fuck off like you just you don't get a you don't get a pass to the festival of sam as i said before you know like so i think it's such a process because it does feel like a radical act it does feel like rebellion and until you realize that you're not actually rebelling against any authority figures, they just told you they were that. And it's actually not true at all. And the only authority figure on your life is you.

The only, nobody else, not your family, not your friends, not your partner, not your kids, not your community, not your boss, not your coworkers, not your cat, although she would like to believe that she is the boss of my life and the authority figure. And let's be honest, she basically rules the house. But apart from her. My dog. Yep. There's no.

Barking all the time. There's nobody else. There's no other authority figure so it when you start understanding it from that perspective it starts to feel way less radical way less radical because there's nobody to fight against but yourself and that doesn't i don't want to i don't want to minimize the systemic issues that exist all around the world there there are some it's so wrong it's so wrong and I don't want to be all like you know self-helpy positive lighty you know you can just do anything ish and like I don't want to put I don't want to paint it with this like light and fluffy brush and this like positive affirmation brush that's not that's not what I'm saying. Like I'm saying this, I understand within the context

of the bigger picture, within the context of the ongoing oppression of women, of people, you know, all sorts of people. I get that. I'm not discounting that at all. And on the very, very, very, very micro level, and the truth is even if you are living under that oppressive system, which we all are on different spectrums, that doesn't change the truth. Even if it's not

in action at the moment because of the power structures, that does not change the truth that nobody is an authority on your life except for you. That might not necessarily be able to be fully recognized in all cases and under every circumstance. That doesn't mean it's not true. And so that's why we do the things that we do to remove the bars from the cage so that we can all actually live inside of what is true. And when that happens and when we're able to and when you connect

with people in that different way, I think it seems to me what is good for us internally and deeply good becomes good for our kids, becomes good for our communities, becomes good for the planet in itself when we're deeply feeling our aliveness, our, you know, walking on the earth stuff. And I'm not articulating it very well, because I do think as we've discussed, some of this stuff is inarticulatable. Is that a word? You've made it up. It's a word.

It is. It's a word. But you know, that is it. When we're able to really connect in with who we are. And it's funny, people have often said this to me and I've often taken it as sort of an insult. And now I'm taking it as a compliment. They're like, oh gosh, you're just like, very yourself, aren't you? And a long time I really struggled with that. Or they'd be like, oh, you would do that. You would. Or the other one that I find, I used to find really insulting was, you look like you're having such a good time up there. And I didn't understand why I really struggled with, because it sort of feels a bit like when people say, oh, that's very you, like it's an insult or something. And I've come to realize that's because not everyone walks around with their insides on

their outsides. People are pretending a lot to be someone they're not and are afraid that if people see who they really are, they won't like it or be judged or whatever. And so I want to say thank you. I've said thank you to you so much, but I want to say thank you again for being someone in the world who is doing that, who is living with their insides on their outsides and sharing their heart with people in a bounded way and making a really meaningful difference to everyone. So thank you

so much for this conversation, Sam. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you. And that means so much to me. It's really, it really matters to me to know that, you know, people are positively impacted by me existing. So yeah, thanks for saying that. It's really lovely. And I've really loved this chat. I love going deep into these things. And I think it's super important. I think the more we all just share our stories with truth and with honesty and, you know, maybe we do fear that that will make some people not like us, but if we can trust that that's fine, we don't want those people in our lives anyway then you know we can go forth and share and find find the right people and keep the evolution keep the evolution going definitely go and find some rainbows hey

that's right chase some more rainbows in your life I love that final song so gorgeous I love it too well thank you so much so much, Sam Buckingham. Thank you. Where can we find you? What are you doing next? Can you tell us about your tour dates and all the things? Yeah, I'm touring mid-November to the end of December. That's almost announced. Probably by the time you air this, that will be announced.

That's going to be mostly in Queensland, regional Queensland, a little bit down in Victoria as well. So that will take me to the end of the year and I'm also writing new songs. So I'm going to be releasing some new songs. I'm still touring Dear John. Next year I will be doing more touring around Australia, maybe overseas as well, but maybe not. We'll see.

But lots of stuff happening online and new songs coming out and hopefully more podcast chats as well because I've really enjoyed this. Thank you so much. You are so welcome. Thank you. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with the incredible Sam Buckingham. For more from Sam, you can find her album Dear John on Spotify, or you can go to her website, sambuckingham.com, for tour dates and lots of other information. For more from me, you can head to claretonte.com. I also make another podcast called Suggestible that comes out every Thursday with my beautiful husband, man, James Clement, where we discuss movies and TV shows and books and give you recommendations for things to watch, read and listen to and have a laugh and often argue

along the way. That's over there. Often people tell me it's a little like Margaret and David if they were married and argued a lot. Anyway, that's the gestable. It comes out every Thursday. As always, thank you to Roar Collings for editing this week's episode and also to Maisie for the wonderful work she's doing on our social media over at TonsPod. And if you'd like to email the show, you can reach out TonsPod at gmail.com. Subscribe, rate, review, you know all those things that really helps. And if this episode resonated for you, please send it to someone. I think that's the best way that this

show gets discovered. And my favorite way to experience podcasts is usually from friends who share them. So go gently with yourself too. There were some big themes in this episode. Sending you lots of love out there and cheers to something more.