TONTS. - Comedy & Rage with Jess Perkins

Episode Date: June 29, 2021

Jess Perkins is a stand up comedian, Triple J radio host and podcaster. She is one third of the smash hit comedy podcast Do Go On and also hosts a new show called Simply the Jest. In this episode we talk about rage and take a look at some common stereotypes around female characterisation in western film and TV. We also talk through Jess' path to comedy.Subscribe here for – tontsnewsletterYou can find me on instagram @clairetonti or at www.clairetonti.comFor more from Jess Perkins head to www.jessperkins.com.au or find her on instagram @jessperkinsYou can email me with suggestions for episode topics and guests to [e-mail]. Feel free to leave me a voice memo to be included in the show.A big thank you to this wonderful team:Editing - RAW CollingsTheme Music - Avocado JunkieGraphic Design - Emma HackettPhotography - Anna RobinsonStyling - Hilary Holmes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Claire Tonti and this is Tonts. I call the voice in my head Maud. Maud has been around for a long time, but I have a suspicion she started building herself when I was around six years old. I moved schools and was the new kid. At my old school, I had lots of friends and felt strong and settled in myself as a pretty loud, physical, competent kid. I was a showman and proud of it.

Being the new kid, being a fish out of water, I remember suddenly being aware that I didn't fit into this new place. I felt lonely, and so I started sneaking cookies from the back of our pantry cupboard. This is where Maud and food first became an item, I think. I would eat to feel numb, to feel safe, to feel loved. And when I didn't, Maud would come crashing in. But then after the cookie, she would come back again too, blaming me for what I had done. I started becoming chubby at six and a half

and suddenly the world treated me differently and I didn't understand why. At the same time, the voices of the Little Mermaid, of Cinderella, of every Disney princess I loved and every beautiful character from those old musicals came crashing in as well. What a noisy bunch. And what they all had in common, from Mary Poppins to Princess Jasmine, was that they were thin. Impossibly so.

And there, Maud began to gain real momentum. I loved to dance and I was good at it, but I was also not thin. And so there Maud was again in my head, but she was also reflected back at me by so many of the ballet mums and teachers at my dance school. I wonder if I'd been a boy if this would have been different. I'm still not really sure about that either. What I do know is that when I really started to look deeply at the stories I watched growing up, the rom-coms, the mainstream movies, my heroes as a teenager, even my heroes as a five-year-old as Jamila mentioned in our first

episode, all those women were told that their path to happiness was to find a man, to find love and to do what they needed to do to be desirable, to be a certain body image, to be gentle, quiet, graceful, caring, selfless. And while I think those are all traits that aren't bad in and of themselves, when you are a loud, chubby, bookish, bossy eldest daughter who loves performing and questioning and being opinionated in class, you can't help but start to have your self-worth and self-esteem eroded. The message was, be smaller, quieter, less you. I'm talking about myself here, but I'm wondering if I'm also talking about you. And not just about women, but about all of us. Were some of those

stories about womanhood and manhood, about gender roles and who we should be, about what will make us happy adults wrong? And why were they wrong? One theory I have when I'm standing up to good old Maud is that it's important to look at who has been telling us those stories. Essentially writing the narratives, and in this case it appears that in most of those stories, men were writing those female characters, which means it's very likely that Maud has been built by some of the stories that some men, and to be clear, generally white Western men from a particular time in history, have been telling us about how they see women. It's a bit messed up, hey? So Jess Perkins, a lovely friend of mine, talented comedian, radio host, and most importantly, podcaster from the brilliantly funny Do Go On Pod stopped by to

talk through some of this stuff. Jess is usually super cheerful and downright hilarious. Her laugh makes me laugh every single time. Interestingly, we recorded this show in March 2021, just around the time that protests about the treatment of women in society and about gendered violence were sweeping the globe. In Australia, the week of our recording, I attended the Women's March for Justice, sparked by the alleged rape and cover-up of a young woman called Brittany Higgins in our own Australian Parliament House, the inspiring words of the Australian of the Year child sexual abuse survivor Grace Tame, and the astonishing rates of domestic violence across our nation.

In this episode, we delve deep into the rage which we were both feeling in spades. You can hear it in our voices. We talk about the narrow boxes women and men are put in and sometimes that they put themselves in, about what it means to be a funny lady and how that was viewed growing up, and mostly about the issues inherent in the stories we have all been told about who we should be through Western film, TV and art and why it is that Jess has become who she is. All right, enough banging on from me. Here she is, Jess Perkins. Are you feeling any rage?

Oh, my God. Yes. Yes. Just this constant underlying anger and frustration. I am so quick to cry because it's also not just anger and frustration, it's just completely overwhelmed. Yeah. I'm so overwhelmed and I'm just constantly angry.

And that's coming out in like it's manifesting in a few different ways. I'm irritable and I'm snappy and I'm just my patience is low at the moment because I'm just like, oh. Everything sucks. Yeah. I know. I totally feel the same. It's exhausting.

And then I swing between exhausted and then like super annoyed and just kind of defeated. Yeah. And then like burning rage. Yeah. And I'm just like stomping around the house yelling at my husband, James, just like yelling at him about everything. Yeah. And he's like, itping around the house yelling at my husband, James, just like yelling at him about everything. And he's like, it's not me, it's not just my fault,

like it's not my fault. I'm like, I know it's not you but you're the only one here. Yeah, you have to listen to it. Bad luck. Yeah, exactly. So what do you think has caused that? What's the crux of your rage at the moment? I mean I feel like it's always there a little bit. As you grow up, as you sort

of get out of high school, maybe even sort of getting out of uni and you are made more and more aware of, I don't know, those little microaggressions or those little like systemic misogyny behaviours and stuff like that, as they're pointed out to you, you can't unsee them and you see them everywhere. And so it just sort of, it builds, I feel for me, it's built slowly over time. And then things happen like a woman walks home from a friend's house at 9.30 at night and a police officer murders her.

That happens and you go, oh, of course. Like, you know, and it just, it kicks off this whole, all these protests all over the world, especially in the UK, but here in Australia as well. And you're talking about Sarah Everard. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. More conversations happen again and it just brings up all those feelings

all over again. It's a real rollercoaster. Yeah, totally. And the thing that gets me is that nothing seems to actually change. Like we have all these conversations and then we have like, I don't know, panel shows where people are like, this is outrageous and things need to change. And then it feels like nothing changes. Yeah. I know. I feel that too. And I don't know how to change things. I don't know what we can actually do to change things. But then having conversations with my mum and comparing what life was like

when she was my age versus now, things have changed. But I think they just happen so slowly and it is quite subtle. I don't think it's ever going to be a satisfying change where we're like, ah, good, remember how last year things were like this and now they're way better? Great. Remember like when one woman a week was murdered? Yeah.

And now no murders. No murders. We've had zero murders. Yeah, zero murders for many years. Yeah. Yeah, imagine. Well done, everybody. Yeah, exactly.

Have a weekend off. Yeah. You know? Exactly. I know I think because I've started really reflecting on it a lot. Would you like to know why I started this podcast? Yeah, of course. Other than my rage?

To share rage, I rage? To share rage? Just to share rage and make everyone else feel, because like raging feminists haven't been a thing, you know, for a long time. It's new. It's a new idea. We're burning our bras after this, right? Correct. Yes, exactly. I've got a little fire pit in the backyard and we'll film it on the socials. So the reason why I started this show was because I do another podcast called Suggestible with James, the husband. And I had a bit of a rant about a movie that he gave me to watch called Love and Monsters. Now on the surface, it's like a love story about a guy who's living in like a post-apocalyptic world. And he sees, he has this girlfriend that he hasn't seen in like 10

years because he's living in a bunker and he wants to go and find her. And so then he has to like leave the bunker and he gets like kind of attacked by all these cool monsters and at the end he like finds her and then there's like a big fight with a crab and then they fall in love and it's lovely. And James is like, you'll love it. It's a love story. It's kind of funny.

You'll love it. And so I watched it and I'm like twiddling my thumbs. Your thumbs are a giveaway. Yeah. She mad. Oh, man. Oh, with my sneaky thumbs. So I watched it and, like, the main character is this, like, white dude.

You know, he goes on this quest to find this imaginary girl who's, like, wonderful and, like, sexy and cute but doesn't know it but is also really smart. You know, like that perfect trope of like the girlfriend? Yeah. Who's incredibly beautiful but also very down to earth and caring. Yes, yeah, and she's like funny but not too funny. Yes, not too funny, exactly. And in this particular film when he does eventually find her

after finding all the monsters, she's also looking after an entire bunker of old people. Of course. And she initially doesn't want to, you know, see him because her old boyfriend died and she couldn't possibly after a year, even though there's no other good looking men anywhere, kiss another guy because her other one died. I mean, come on. Anyway, so then all the women in it, one is like his mum who died. And so he like talks a lot about his mum. There's another girl who I thought was going to be a great character, turns out also dead, and the only person who was alive was her dog called Boy.

And so you don't ever meet her. She just seemed like a cool person because he stumbled on her trailer that had all her drawings and stuff around on his quest. But you never actually meet her, you just meet her dog. So that's another one. Wow. Then there was like a little girl who he becomes a father figure for and she just like asks him all these questions and he like tells her

about life. Ugh. And then just like fucking enraging and then he meets a robot who's the only other female character in the film and the robot exists just for him to watch pictures of his dead mum and then she gives him her last battery so he can contact the perfect girl and then the robot dies. I'm like, this is totally fucked.

Anyway, so it got me really mad. I did a real rant on the pod. So then what happened, Jess, is that someone called Charlie wrote in to the email address of thegestible Pod with the tagline, please shut up, Claire. Please shut up. Please shut up. And he said, you're being too full on.

This is too annoying. You just need to shut up on my own podcast. Yeah, Claire, shut up. Yeah. Which is like how ridiculous. I mean, I speak. What? It's not even a podcast if I'm not speaking on the show.

Especially with the concept of suggestible, like why would you expect either of the hosts to not give an opinion or speak in general? Yeah. Correct. Yes. Okay. So two of my thumbs with Rach.

So then anyway, so I issued an email chain and Charlie ended up like coming around to my side and it was great. When I explained to him like the whole history of women's lib basically. Yeah, but it's putting a lot of, it's putting the work on you. It's always putting the work on women to explain it to everybody else. Yes, exactly. It's so infuriating. And also he was shocked.

He just didn't know. So it wasn't even like he was an arsehole that was like, and there are a lot of them out there, don't get me wrong, but he wasn't an arsehole. He literally just didn't know, like genuinely. He was like, I'm so sorry I didn't know any of that, that like the first woman elected to Australian Parliament was only 100 years ago.

Or like the fact that my mother-in-law lost her job when she got married. Yeah. Stuff like that. Like you just didn't know. That's not that long ago, you know, as in generationally. Yeah, our grandparents, for example, you didn't work at all if you were a woman or you could but if you were married, God, no.

Exactly. Because you were just supposed to be at home. Correct. So that's kind of why I started the show because it got me thinking when I started watching more stuff like Love and Monsters, how often A, the women characters are just total bullshit or they're kind of passive and secondary to the show and the guy always gets to be the hero.

And even though, yeah, it is changing, I don't think it's changing enough. Yeah. You know, like in general, when you start to really look even at like kids cartoons and all that stuff. Yeah. So that's why I got really raged. And I wanted to ask you, what are your kind of memories of growing up as a girl and the stories and movies and stuff that you watched and what kind of message maybe they sent? I mean, it's hard to sort of, I would have been watching, you know, as a teenager I would have been watching those sort of classic 2000s teen movies, which I think, you know,

some of them had fine messages. There wasn't always, you know, love wasn't always the whole point of everything. You know, I'm thinking Bring It On specifically. Obviously there was a love interest there but really the aim was cheerleading. Correct. Yeah. Spirit fingers?

Yes. Oh, my God, I love that movie. I bloody loved that movie. But thinking to like my own life as well, I think a couple of positives, a couple of negatives as always. But my parents made a really conscious effort. Oh, I don't know if it was a conscious effort, but they made a big deal of letting me know that my sense of humour was special and that it was something they valued in me and that made me unique. Because there would be a couple of

different instances where there'd be certain milestones at school and the parents would send letters to the kids, like we were on a school camp or coming up to our first communion. I went to Catholic school. Oh, yeah, I went to communion too. I love it, yeah. Yeah, and so your parents would write you a letter and they were just little nice things to have.

My mum would always sort of talk about how, you know, I was seven, eight years old and I would get jokes faster than the adults would. And that's like verbatim what she wrote one time and it stayed with me now. I'm 30. But I just think by them sort of pointing that out and making me realise that it was unique in a good way, I felt really confident about that throughout my whole childhood, you know, and through to now I was like, it's like, I've got a good sense of humour. I've got, I'm funny. And I think that was a really positive thing, especially because I went to an all girls school in high school. And so I always sort of thought that let me be the class clown, let me come out of my shell and turn into who I am because I didn't have the

pressure of impressing boys, which I think was a really positive thing for me. Not everybody had that experience, but I remember, and I don't even know if this is fully related to your question, but it's just what made it made me think of. I remember year 12, I was the drama captain and we had our creative arts show. It was just massive. It was such a long show. It must have been the parents' nightmare. I think it went for like three hours. It was way too long.

But it was like music and dance and sketches and all sorts of stuff. The opening sketch was me doing a comedy bit and my. Really? Yeah. Bloody hell. Not like stand-up but like sketch. Yeah. And my then boyfriend, I assume we were dating by then,

I remember standing in the wings and watching the audience filing in and I could see him sitting in the crowd and I thought, oh, no, because he was going to see me be funny and I figured that would be a turn off. Wow. And then when it wasn't, I thought, wow, how cool is it that even though I'm funny, he still likes me. Oh, my goodness.

And that even kind of permeated into my current relationship because when he found out I was a stand-up comedian, it made him more interested in me. Before we'd started dating, we were just chatting. And I sort of later went, wow, that's kind of cool. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Get rid of that. Because the fact that you're a woman with a sense of humor isn't a bad thing. And if a man's intimidated by that, he's not a good dude. You know, but to be so impressed, like, oh, wow, he still likes me even though I'm funny. And that's what I was saying before about, you know,

like the woman in the perfect girlfriend role should be funny but not funnier than the man. So a man who can accept that I'm funnier, like, oh, my God, lock him down, girl. It's crazy. Where does that come from? I don't know. I really don't know. Maybe it was because, oh, I don't know. I don't know if I sort of felt like boys didn't like me because, I mean, funny means intelligent. You know, you can't be funny without being, well,

actually, now that I do comedy and I know a lot of comedians, that's not true. But it can be a particular type of comedy. You do, you need like a certain type of intelligence. You need to be intelligent and maybe an intelligent woman is intimidating because she's not going to fall for your bullshit. Yeah, and maybe also self-assured and also vocal because you can't be vocal if you're not saying anything. Exactly right. You know, you can't be funny if you're not actually saying what you think.

Yeah, that's a good point too. And also isn't that, I wonder, that whole idea of a women's worst fear is being murdered and men's worst fear is like being laughed at? Yeah. Like is it a part of that gentle ribbing that is between blokes? Yeah. But I've found because I would do that with like some of my male friends. Some of them are fine with it.

Yeah. But some, if I make fun of them, like they make fun of their friends, they look at me. Like there's this weird look. It's not your place to do that. Yeah. They look a bit like I've sort of thrown them. Yeah.

Or something. Like I remember once I was at a wedding and this guy was telling this anecdote about how great it was that when he was really drunk at uni, he used to go around and pretend that he was a doctor and ask women if he could like give them a breast exam and they would sometimes let him and everyone was like laughing, like people were laughing. And I was just like, this is ridiculous. And so then I piped up and said something like, yeah, yeah,

I used to do that too at uni. I used to pretend to be a doctor and like give you, you know, like what is that thing that you do like where you feel their balls? Prostate. Prostate check. You know, just like grab their balls and see how they like it. And literally I thought it was hilarious and I was laughing

and like he just looked so shocked and he just looked at James and was like, oh, I see. So your woman's like that. Is she? And it's like how is that different to what you were saying? I was taking the piss of you being ridiculous. Yes. And not acknowledging that as a young person, you were essentially assaulting women. Exactly. So funny, isn't it, everybody? Hey, let me tell

you about a time I assaulted a bunch of women. Yeah. What the fuck is wrong with you? Exactly. Exactly right. Insane. It's so insane. And once you flip that narrative and you think, well, what did girls go around just grabbing your balls all the time? Like that is so inappropriate and quite shocking. Of course it is. Of course. And there's a very, very good chance those women knew he wasn't a doctor.

Yes. And were whatever, like, yeah, go for it. Yeah, go with the flow. I mean, run the joke, it's fine. But still, yuck. Yes. And we're, whatever, like, yeah, go for it. Yeah, go with the flow. I mean, on the joke, it's fine. But still, yuck. Exactly. And you were young and dumb but you're bragging about it now when you're old and dumb.

We were, like, 32 at a wedding. Nah, dude. No, nah, dude. Exactly. This is the shit that just, like, it drives me insane. I'm so surprised that you had that thought and then now I think about it, not surprised that you were worried that black boys wouldn't like you because you were too funny.

Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? It's such a good thing that my parents were encouraging of it. My parents are funny. It was a house of laughter. Like, growing up was so much fun, you know. They've got great senses of humour. My brother is so funny.

So, you know, we would, yeah, rib each other. There was jokes, there was riffs and it was a lot of fun. You know, they've got great senses of humour. My brother is so funny. So, you know, we would, yeah, rib each other. There was jokes, there was riffs and it was a lot of fun. But then there was, so it was like home was a safe place to be funny but boys aren't going to like you if you're funny. Boys like the pretty dumb girls or, you know, the girls who act dumb for boys and I never did that. So then it was kind of like, oh, nobody's going to like me or he's going to be really special if he does.

Yeah. And like Aidan is very special. He's very special but not because he accepts me for being funny. I know. It's so ridiculous. So do you want to know a little bit more? We're going to talk a bit more about why I think this is a thing, okay? So it's so interesting you said this.

So there's a segment called, I've decided to create a segment called Man Writes Woman, basically, right? Because I think one of the reasons we've grown up with this narrative, and boys have as well, that women need to be passive and not too funny and not too loud and blah, blah, blah, is that that's what we watch on our screens. And there's a lot of research. The Gina Davis Institute has done amazing research into this, that so much of what we watch and as young people and even as adults then kind of manifests in our lives because, you know, we're so highly influenced by the stories we see and are told. And so we kind of grow up with these ideas and there's some statistics I'll read you in a bit about how women are so underrepresented generally across the board in what we watch. But anyway, let's get to man rights women first. You heard about Reese

Witherspoon's speech from a little while ago. Do you remember that? Yeah. I mean, not word for word, but I do remember definitely seeing clips of it. On the socials. Yeah. Well, I just think as our listeners can't remember i thought i might play you a little bit of it what do we do now seriously i'm not kidding go back and watch any movie and you will see this line over and over again you're gonna see it now i'm telling you my daughter watched a movie last weekend she goes mom i heard that line and i love to ask questions but it's my most hated question and i dread reading scripts that have no women involved in their creation. Because inevitably, I get to that part where the girl turns to the guy and she goes, what do we do now?

Now, do you know any woman in any crisis situation? Who has... any woman in any crisis who has absolutely no idea what to do i mean don't they tell women they tell people in crisis little children that if you're in trouble talk to a woman it's ridiculous that a woman wouldn't know what to do. I need the man to save me. And, I mean, sometimes I feel like, I don't know, when I just get worked up I'm going to pick apart every single thing and I'm going to be angry about every little minor thing. And there would be times in a crisis I would turn to the people I'm with,

it doesn't matter if they're a man or a woman, go, shit, what do we do? You know? Sure, I would ask that question. But she's right. So consistently, women turning to the male lead so that he can be the hero and he can fix everything and she can go, wow, you're amazing. So frustrating. Isn't it? It's so frustrating. And it's kind of a message that then gets kind of put on young girls, I think, and women too. And when I think about it, so often in times of crisis, it's the women that are making the food and, like,

making the cups of tea and, like, organising the things. Like I think about, like, in a school community, who are the people supporting the parents whose kids are really sick or helping to do the fundraisers or, like, you know, all of that stuff. And I agree. It's not that, like, blokes also aren't good in a crisis. Of course. That's not what it is.

But I think the more that we see that, it's just so infuriating that that's the stories that we see. And I'll just show you because I also get some pushbacks sometimes. I'm like, well, where's the actual evidence for that, Claire? Because meh. So have a little video. And just as a fun game, I thought you could maybe see if you can guess or hear any of the actors that are being in this little video. And just as a fun game, I thought you maybe see if you can guess or hear any of

the actors that are being in this little video. See if you can figure it out. Little challenge? Yeah, a little challenge, yes, while we're listening to it. So there's just a whole little compilation. I got this from the Supercut from the old YouTubes. Yes, from Women in the World. We'll just listen and see if you can recognise any of the voices. What do we do now? So what do we do now? What do we do now?

What are we going to do? What do we do? What do we do now? What do we do now? Smile. What do we do? What do we do? What do we do now?

So what do we do now? What do we do now? So what do we do? What do we do now? So what do we do now? What do we do now? So what do we do now? Where? Where? Where shall I go? What shall I do? Did you recognise any of them?

I'm sure I'd know a bunch of them. I definitely heard Marge Simpson in there. Perfect. And even just the wording is exactly the same. Nobody even thinks to reword it a little bit. I know. Mix it up a bit. I know. Mix it up a bit. I know.

It's so original, isn't it? So I'll read out some of them because they're quite modern films too. So like Jessie from Toy Story. Of course. Says to Buzz, what do we do? Judi Dench in Philomena, Julia Roberts in Erin Brockovich, where she's supposed to be the main character, and she asks, well, what do we do now?

Keira Knightley. There was Sloane from Ferris Buellerueller who's Ferris Bueller's girlfriend. Natalie in Love Actually. Do you remember that scene where Hugh Grant is standing there on the stage with her and they've had a smooch and the curtains go up just after the big cool song? Oh, and he's the one who says, smile. Yeah, yeah, because she's like, what am I doing wrong?

Yeah, exactly. There's Kate Winslet. There's Anna in Frozen. Yeah. So even in films where like Anna is ostensibly the main character with Elsa, Anna turns to the bloke and he's like, what do we do? Yeah. Now this one I think is quite funny.

Have you ever seen Basic Instinct with Sharon Stone? I mean I've seen the memes. Yes. But I haven't actually seen the film. Yeah, I only, I watched it recently for research, for a later episode of this show. But Sharon Stone is a murdering, murdering murderer. She's terrifying. At the end of the movie she turns to, like,

the guy that she's about to try and murder and says, what do we do now? Oh, my God. Like, seriously? And then obviously the last one was Scarlett O'Hara in Gone With The Wind. Of course, yes. Yeah. Where shall I go?

What shall I do? Seriously. Oh, my God. Anyway Anyway. So yeah, so it's clearly a thing that happens. And I just, I guess I wanted to ask the question, do you think in real life men are better in a crisis? I mean, it's hard to generalise. In my family, no, absolutely not. My mum is incredible in a crisis because my brother and I both played basketball growing up and mum was the mum to go to when any kid was injured. Mum just like swings into action. She just knows what to do. She's always had first aid training because she's worked

in sports departments of high school. So she knows what to do and she's just very cool and calm. And my dad is like, I don't know, like just running on water. Like he just panics. Yeah. Right. And even my partner, he's so easily flustered about anything small. He'll get really, really flustered.

We were in Christchurch the day of the mosque shooting. Oh, wow. And so we're in a park, not quite sure why it's a bit quiet, and then there's this air raid siren going. And I was like, that's weird. It's not stopping. It's not a drill or something. And he says, oh, just put your mind at ease.

Google Christchurch news. So I did and it said there was a gunman on the loose near where we were. And he's so easily flustered about like putting the groceries away. But in this situation he was like, okay, here we go, and he just like started power walking in the right direction towards our hotel. I had no idea where we were. He was like, we've got to go this way, we're going to go through the park,

over here, done, got us home, everything was fine. So I don't think it's fair to say men are no good in a crisis and women are way better. I think it's down to the individual, but it's just the fact that in all of those examples, women were turning to men. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say, what do we do in a crisis to make it a discussion? I think that's a completely reasonable thing to say. It's just the fact that it is always portrayed a woman asking a man and then he is the hero who comes up with the solution and then everybody says, oh my God, he's amazing. That's the problem part. Exactly right. Because you're absolutely right. I think obviously it's a personality thing, like who you are and how you react in a crisis doesn't

have to be gendered. Right. But I do think you're right that it's a problem if we just constantly see one type of story. Yeah. And so I wanted to read you those stats I was talking about because the Gina Davis Institute is kind of amazing and if you want some like real hardcore facts to bring at someone, if you bring this up and they're like, yeah, but there's no conclusive evidence, you're like, well, huh,

I have many things. Okay, so some people have said to me when I brought this up that they think that things are actually looking really great for females now and that there's more women involved in like film and screen and, you know, TV and stuff and the movies that we watch and that things are getting better. But these are the facts from the most recent study done in 2020 from the Daniel Davis Institute. Only 7% of directors, 13% of writers and 20% of producers are female, which means that effectively 80% of films are produced by men.

There's such a dearth of female representation in front of and behind the camera that it's a struggle to champion female stories and voices because of this. So even though we feel like there are examples of films where women are heroes, generally it's still not the case in the majority. It shows that female involvement in the creative process is imperative for creating greater gender balance before production even begins. And there's a causal relationship between positive female portrayals and female content creators involved in production. So basically if there's women on the team, the women portrayed on the screen will have more words and will have a better role basically.

In fact, when even one woman writer works on a film, there is a 10.4% difference in screen time for female characters. It was just one writer. Just one. And generally at the moment only one in ten writers are women. What's it like for that female writer in the room, I wonder? Because without her there, that evidence is saying that female characters are just background characters.

So with her there, is she having to constantly go, so sorry to bring this up again, but you still haven't given the woman a line or a personality? You know, like is she just having to fight? And it must be so emotionally draining, I'm assuming. Absolutely. You know, I'm assuming that's a conversation that happens a lot. It can't just be like having a woman in the room reminds men

that women exist. Yeah. You know, she's probably got to remind them a bit. Yeah, and push it, right? Yeah. Absolutely. And then it's like it's all on her to raise up, I don't know, like the number of scenes a woman is in.

Yeah, and the type of words and the type of role that that female will play. You're having to represent all women? Yeah, exactly. Draining. Exactly right. For instance, they looked at this idea of boys and girls being represented equally in television and even among the top grossing G-rated family films, so we're not even talking about adult films,

girl characters are outnumbered by boys three to one. Shit. And this is now. It's not like in the past when things are changing with like Moana and Frozen. Those are outliers. And I know that when my kids are watching cartoons. Always the heroes in the story, Paw Patrol or whatever is watching, boy.

Boy character. It's a dog and it's still a boy. Like it's a dog. You can't even imagine a dog being a girl. Yes, exactly. Oh, my God. And often it's saying 83% of film and TV narrators are male as well. Wow.

83%. Women's voices are quite grating, aren't they? They're too high pitched. Oh, uncomfortable. I know. Who wants to listen to a woman? I know. They're also saying that in group scenes 17% of the characters are male,

are female, sorry. 17%. So if there's a group of characters on screen, and I see this in like say the Lego movie for instance, there are female characters but there's like not that many. So they're on the periphery. Yeah. Or even if you look at like the Avengers or something,

there are a couple of women but the bulk of the characters are blokes. Yeah. And white blokes. Yeah, and that's exactly right. That's the other part of it too, that there's gender imbalance issues but also like, for instance, 100% of the top grossing films from last year were all produced by white men. Fuck.

It's so frustrating. And not even people, and no person of colour. That's the other part of it. And then when you start to look at women of colour, it gets even scarier. And so this is really depressing now. Yeah. It's really depressing.

But it said like nothing has changed in 60 years in gender equality, inequality on screen. Yeah. So, like, when they actually looked over all the films that have been made, we really haven't made headway. So what do we do, you know? Well, it's frustrating because you're right. Like, what we see is how we sort of form our views

and our understanding of the world. So it must be hard as a parent then to sort of it's still mostly these male leads, these male heroes, et cetera. If you're wanting to help your kids see things a little differently, you have to really actively have conversations with them all the time about, okay, well, why do you think, you know, why is it a man, a boy dog who's the hero in this? You know, could a girl dog do that too? And, you know, like it's putting a lot of pressure on parents and on people to just challenge their own thoughts rather than just telling different stories. Yeah. You tell a different story.

How about that? Try that. Yeah, exactly. Olivia Colman talks about how I think her role in, did you ever see Broadchurch? Oh, no. No. So it's like a murder mystery thing and she's a detective.

And she said initially her role was supposed to be a man and then she just asked if she could read for it and they were like, yeah, cool. They didn't really change the storyline other than they made her a woman. And she said they're kind of the best sort of roles because it means that, yeah, like Paw Patrol, like any of those kind of kids' movies, you could just swap out the boy dog for a girl dog. It doesn't actually materially make a difference to the story at all.

So I often do that when I'm reading picture books for my son. I just change a pronoun. Yeah. And it makes no difference because the story doesn't actually, it's not actually about the fact that it's a girl or a boy. Yeah. Let alone if you're non-binary. Yeah.

It doesn't, the gender isn't important in the story. But then conversely, sometimes when the story is about a girl in the lead character, gender becomes like important in the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For some reason. Yeah. Barbie, like my friend's in the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For some reason. Yeah. Barbie, like my friend's little girl is obsessed with the TV show Barbie. And look, you know, I love Barbie or whatever, but it's so highly like handbags and heels and glitter.

And that's great too and there should be places for all of those stories. Yeah, exactly. It's hard because, yeah, that's a part of being a woman and it's a really fun part sometimes. Yes. Or if you're not into it yeah, that's a part of being a woman and it's a really fun part sometimes. Yes. Or if you're not into it, it's not a part of being a woman or being non-binary or being a man who likes high heels and handbags. It doesn't matter.

Yeah. But it's like stop just making that. Okay, so girl, handbag. Yeah. Lip gloss. Yeah, exactly. Gossip magazine. It's all got to be pink.

It's got to be this particular, like that's all that girls will be interested in. And the girl can't be like the hero. So why I think all of this matters in the end, like we were talking about, the scale of influence, media influence on society is well-researched and well-known, and it really shouldn't be underestimated. Like media wields a significant influence on how we think and define our place in society. Entertainment media is super powerful and, for instance, it earned the top 54 of the 56 top grossing films of 2018 earned over $21 billion.

Wow. So like it's such a ginormous industry. Yeah. And it's kind of the other part of it I think is that it's highly westernised like what we were saying and really kind of US-centric. And so, think, is that it's highly westernised, like what we were saying, and really kind of US centric. And so, yeah, there's all this research to show how much of an influence the media has on us. And I think not that there's a causal relationship that because the stories we watch then mean

that there aren't as many women in leadership. But the fact of the matter is in terms of like global leadership and women out there in a whole lot of industries, 51 of the percent of the matter is in terms of like global leadership and women out there in a whole lot of industries, 51% of the population are women but we just hold 23% of the legislative seats and only 11% of heads of state positions globally. 11%. Fewer than 7% of CEO positions at Fortune 500 companies

are held by women. Yeah. So we have a long way to go. And you can kind of see, like it's proved in the film industry, that once you have women, even if it's one, that one woman being like, guys, she can also have an opinion. Yeah. She can also be funny.

Yeah. You know, even if you just have one woman, that actually does change that narrative. So imagine it really is just about getting more women everywhere and people of minorities and different races and genders and sexualities, just getting our leadership, you know, across the board more representation. Yeah, more diverse.

More diverse and getting more women in there so that things can then change. Anyway. I wanted to, I feel like we've ended, like, this is very doom and gloom. So I wanted to sort of have a bit where, like, no doom and gloom, let's talk about some fun stuff. Who is your favourite female character of, like, the, you know, stuff that you've watched and seen?

It's hard. I mean, there's a lot of good ones. I think favourites would be Leslie Knope from Parks and Rec. That's who I wrote down. Yeah. I wrote down. She's so unflappable. She is like a really driven and ambitious woman

and has been since she was a child. She knew what she wanted to do, where she was heading, and nothing gets in her way of that, in a good way. You know, some people can be a bit too driven, but she's like she's a good friend, she's a very dedicated friend, she's a mother, she's a wife, and she just she does it all in an unflappable and strong and confident way. And she's super like she's a leader. Yeah.

But she's just super positive. Yeah. And wants the best for everybody. She just wants everyone to be a great team and, like, she wants to look after everyone in the team, which I love. It's so funny you said that as a note because I'm literally retarded. I think she's a great character. I mean, it's my favourite show.

It's such a good show. There's a lot of, actually there's a lot of good female characters in that as well. And it heroes her friendship as well, which I think is really nice, with what's her? Anne Perkins. Anne Perkins. Yeah.

Anne Perkins. Yeah. And that's really great too because I don't think we often see, we see stories of male friendship everywhere all of the time. I don't think we see stories of female friendship as much. Which is I think why Sex and the City, not a perfect show by any means, but the reason I loved that show was the friendship between the women. Yeah.

That's kind of what got me through. And I was watching Firefly Lane on Netflix, which kind of is a terrible show, but the reason I loved it so much is the friendship. Yeah. There's just, I can see that in friends that I have and I think it's really interesting. I think it's nice that more TV shows and films are like accurately portraying female friendship.

I think a lot of those sort of teen movies, girls are just very bitchy to each other. And so growing up in high school I feel like it was a little bit like that because that's what we saw, because that's what you're shown friendship to be. So you are kind of talking about people behind their backs and being a bit bitchy and then you grow up and you just form strong female relationships. And I would never speak

about someone behind their back. They're not a friend if I'm willing to bitch about them behind their back or, you know, like my, my female friendships are incredibly important to me now and are very, very strong. And I like it when you see that portrayed properly. Yeah. You know, where you're like, oh, they're each other's biggest fan. Yes. And they're funny as well. Like they make each other laugh hysterically and it's also complex

and like you're both flawed and like you can upset the other person but it's not the end of the world, it's not a cat fight. Yeah. It's like they're complex and they're there for you and you know each other's histories, you know everything about them, you know the names of your grandparents and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I think, yeah, that's why I love Leslie Knope because she's so,

she's got such unbridled optimism and love for the people in her life. Yeah, not just her husband. Yes. Not just the love interest. Or her kids, you know, or something. It was nice that, you know, like it's one of those shows where you're like you watch this couple get together and you're really rooting for them. You're like, yeah, I love Ben as well.

I think he's a great character. Yeah, she isn't just like solely focused on getting a boyfriend, getting a husband and then forgetting friendships. Yeah, and that love story arc is lovely but it's not the main part of the show. No. And if you took it out, it would still be an incredible show. Exactly.

I think what's really interesting because I didn't love the first season as much. Oh, yeah, no. I feel like, yeah, from the second season too, what's interesting is the film was, the TV show Parks and Rec was made by Nick Offerman and Mike Schur, but Amy Puller is the producer. And I was kind of looking into the women on the writing team and there is one woman on their writing team.

It's not mostly blokes, but there is one woman. But I think the reason the show's character worked in the end was Nick Offerman was saying it was because he wrote it for Amy. Amy initially he kind of hadn't landed the character and in like the pilot and even season one he hadn't quite landed it. But once they started letting Amy Pooler do improv and improv out her character, it fully fleshed it out. Yeah.

And it became who she is. And so I think like that's something interesting to think about too. It just makes so much sense that you don't really nail female characters unless you have women either like it doesn't have to be all women on the writing team and it's not that men can't write women. It just makes so much sense when you have female input and women driving the content that it will be a character that then speaks more to women that we know, you know?

And also it's just, yeah, a better character for everybody to enjoy. You know? Yeah, it's huge and such a good show. But the other one that I thought of was and I think it's like it's flawed in a lot of ways but a lot of the superheroes in the Marvel universe, the female ones I think are great characters. In particular I'm thinking about when I watched Captain Marvel. There's no love interest in that.

She's not motivated by a boy. And there's this whole montage of her falling down and getting back up throughout her whole life. And male friends of mine have like ripped that to shreds as like, it's so cheesy, so lame. And then there's a fight scene to I'm just a girl. And, you know, they say, oh God, it's just so cheesy. But in that cinema, in that moment, I felt empowered as a person in my late twenties. And I thought if kids and teenagers are seeing this, that's really important.

And, yes, you can watch it back and go, it's a little bit cheesy, but all of those Marvel movies are cheesy. My God, they're just like men running around in capes with, like, tights on. And it's the best. Exactly. I love them. I love the Marvel movies. I watched them all in lockdown.

That's something I did. Remember before I was saying I don't remember what I did in lockdown. I watched all of the Marvel movies in chronological order. I love it. It was great. But, yeah, so Black Widow is an incredible character. It's great seeing these, like, strong women be incredibly capable. And complicated.

Yeah. Like not, like, just, like, really strong and great and that's it. Yeah. They're, like, complex and they have their demons and they've had their battles. And I totally agree with that scene with Brie Larson. And I even think there's, have you seen Frozen 2? Yeah.

Okay. I cried in Frozen 2. I love that movie so much. But I love that scene where she's running into the ocean. Yeah. And she has to keep running in and she gets knocked down and knocked down and she's, you know, and the song's incredible. But it made me cry and I agree.

It might be cheesy but we don't see films like that. We don't see women being battered and battered in that kind of physical way and standing up and keeping on going. Yeah. And doesn't it hit a spot in you because you know in your life, like, oh, my God, just even all the shit that we keep hearing in the media and what happens to women in our lives, we have to fucking get up all the bloody time and just keep

on picking ourselves up and picking ourselves up all the bloody time and just keep on picking ourselves up and picking ourselves up and keeping on going and keeping on going. And so seeing someone so badass up there doing it on screen is really affirming. And she's being told that she's nothing and she stands up again and she's like, no, I'm, you know, I'm a human. She gets up and there's a scene in the, it's not Endgame, but it's one of them where Scarlet Witch is like cornered and somebody's going to attack her. She's like, oh, you're all by yourself or you're all alone

and you just hear she's not alone and then two other women are there to fight this evil woman and it's just a girl fight but in a really good way. Yeah. You know, so she's not alone. We've got her back, you know. And then there's a scene in Endgame where it's all the women are in together at one point.

And, again, men are going, it's a bit cheesy. And, yeah, it is. But I don't see that. I don't get to see a bunch of women come together and kick ass. No. I don't get to see that. This is a first for me. Yes.

And I'm in my late 20s and that is blowing my mind. Exactly. That's how I felt when I saw Wonder Woman. Yes. I loved it. Yes, it was so cheesy though. I know. So cheesy but I was like, yes, Diana.

Exactly. And that's another thing that does annoy me a little bit though in a lot of films where like the guy will be interested in a woman once he sees she can do something. Like first it will be like she's pretty and then you'll see her like sing or I'm thinking of Pitch Perfect, one of the Pitch Perfects, maybe number three where she's like producing music and he's like, wow. It's like, oh, now she has value.

There's a little bit of that in Wonder Woman where he's like, oh, wow, she's actually really impressive. Yeah, and it's a bit like surprising because a woman doing that, making music or like, I don't know, saying words or being funny, oh, she's not like all the others. Yeah, exactly. You know that ridiculous thing that you hear, you're like, you're special, you're not like the other girls.

What's wrong with all the other girls? Those are my friends. Yeah, exactly. What are you talking about? Exactly, we're all going to come in Avengers style and let you kick your ass, mate. Yeah. It yeah it's so good i know it's like super great yeah i know i felt the same and it just to see i get really emotional watching that kind of stuff because i think about if i'd watched that and not fucking the little mermaid excuse my language again where like i loved that movie

but she changes their whole life she bloody loses loses her freaking tail to like be with a dude and everyone celebrates. She has to leave her whole family at the end. What a great plan, yeah. Yeah, and her voice gets taken away. It's messed up. She's fine with that in order to make him fall in love with her. Yeah, there's just so much underlying bullshit.

Well, thank you, Jess. That all worked out. I know, me too. We're going to go do some yoga or something. I don't know. Or channel our rage and, I don I know, me too. We're going to go do some yoga or something. I don't know. Or channel our rage and, I don't know, start another protest. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know if this will solve anything either. The problem is the people who are like Charlie's first reaction of going shut up aren't the ones who are going to seek out this podcast. Yeah. Which is disappointing. I would suspect we'll be talking to like-minded people. But at least those people go, hey, I'm not alone because I feel all these things as well. Exactly.

So that helps. Yeah, exactly. And maybe I can arm you with some stats to take into like the next time you have to bring this up and a thing because it is really exhausting being that person that's pushing against something and highlighting things and seeing it and feeling like you're the only one that sees it. Yeah.

Because I know I've talked about this with some of my women friends. My lady pals. My lady pals. My girls. My ladies. And some of them are just not in this headspace and don't want to hear it and they're like, yeah, but it doesn't really matter, Claire, it's no big deal. Or in this headspace and don't want to hear it and they're like, yeah, but it doesn't really matter, Claire, it's no big deal.

Or, you know, just aren't ready to hear it and that's cool too but it's really nice to like talk to people that do get it and do understand. Well, you know, like we said at the start, once it's pointed out, you can't unsee it and you start to see it more and more and more. So maybe even having those conversations with people who aren't quite ready to hear it yet might mean that they pick up on things a little bit more and start to, I don't know, challenge their own views and own opinions. There's nothing wrong with challenging things. You can land on the

same opinion you had before, but it doesn't hurt to just think about it every now and then. And just have that little time where like maybe you're in a meeting at work or something, and instead of sitting there listening to Darren talk again, just put your hand up and say the thing or like assert yourself and say, no, I do deserve that pay rise or I can go for that job that seems scary and maybe I'm not qualified but I'll bloody do it. Wonder Woman would have. Yeah, Wonder Woman.

She just says, oi, give me a boost and they just use a shield or some sort of door thing. I don't remember. I haven't seen it for a while. And she just runs and they just lift her up and she goes flying and solves it all herself. Exactly, while looking great as well. While looking very good.

She's in heels the whole time. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God, don't even get me started on that particular thing. My back would just be gone. I can't do it. No, it's too hard. Thanks so much, Jess. Thank you.

All right. Thanks, everybody. And bye-bye. Bye. Bye. You've been listening to a podcast called Tonts with me, Claire Tonti, and the downright hilarious Jess Perkins. For more from Jess, you can find her every week hosting the wonderful podcast

Do Go On. On her new pod, Simply the Jest, Weekend Arvos on the radio station, Triple J, and also on Instagram at Jess Perkins, where she tells some really hilarious stories and will answer any question you put to her. And if you'd like to do us a favour, it would be so amazing if you could share this podcast

with someone that you think might find helpful. And if you'd like to help us out, please follow, rate and review us in the app just straight away. That would make so much difference. And I might just read out your review on the show, just like John J. Swanson has. First episode, fantastical. I am not a woman, but I very much enjoyed listening to these two kick-ass women just talking about overcoming struggles and Disney movies and stuff. Very insightful about how not to be a bad guy and other stuff. And I truly love this.

A great listen. Thank you. And thank you, John Swanson. What a superstar. So if you want to be like John and be rad, you can just pop a little review for us. It really helps out the show. All right. For more from me, I'm also on

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Oh, and thank you as always to Roar Collings for the edit. He is a superstar. And to Avocado Junkie as well. Oh, a superstar. And to Avocado Junkie as well. Oh, I nearly forgot you, Avocado Junkie, for our theme music. All right, that's really all from me. Bye.