TONTS. - Coming to America with Zainab Johnson

Episode Date: July 19, 2021

My guest today is the whip smart powerhouse that is stand up comedian, writer and actor Zainab Johnson. You may remember her from NBC’s last comic standing, or in the TV shows 100 Humans and Upload. You might have even been lucky enough to see her before at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival or on late night with Seth Meyers. She grew up in a Muslim family of 13 in Harlem New York city and growing up Eddie Murphy’s Coming to America was her favourite thing to watch. But as in all things does it stand up to a rewatch? And can you still love something if you find some of the messages full of misogyny or racism? I really really loved this conversation. I hope you do too.You can find more from Zainab on Instagram @zainabjohnson or on her podcast Honestea with Z Subscribe here for – tontsnewsletterYou can find me on instagram @clairetonti or at www.clairetonti.comYou can email me with suggestions for episode topics and guests to [e-mail]. Feel free to leave me a voice memo to be included in the show.A big thank you to this wonderful team:Editing - RAW CollingsTheme Music - Avocado JunkieGraphic Design - Emma HackettPhotography - Anna RobinsonStyling - Hilary Holmes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, this is Tonce. I'm your host, Claire Tonte, and this is a podcast about feeling all of it, about our inner critic and our emotions, about womanhood and the stories we absorbed growing up and how they've shaped who we are. Not much gives me more joy than speaking to someone who at once can make you belly laugh and be silly and hilarious, and then can just instantly give you a depth of insight you didn't have before or speak openly about their spiritual beliefs. Or like Zainab, my guest today does, turn on a dime and talk about their favorite movie and why they still love it even though it's problematic. My guest today is Whipsmart. She's a stand-up comedian, writer and actor. Zainab Johnson. You may have seen her on NBC's

Last Comic Standing or in the TV shows 100 Humans and Upload. You might have even been lucky enough to see her perform at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival or on Late Night with Seth Meyers. She grew up in a Muslim family of 13 in Harlem, New York City. And growing up, Eddie Murphy's Coming to America was her favorite thing to watch. On the surface, it's a story about love. But as we start to unpack in this episode, it's also about so much more. Can you still love something if you find some of the messages full of misogyny or racism? We find out. I really, really love this conversation. And I hope you do too. Here she is, Zainab.

I wanted to ask you, because you grew up in Harlem, right? In New York City. Can you sort of describe Harlem in three words for me? Because I've never been. I've never been to New York. Cultured, historic, and black. Cool. Very different to Melbourne. Oh, Melbourne was super white. Super white. We are so white here, honestly. Yeah. When you're not white, you're Asian, but you're super white. Yeah.

Yeah. Not in all parts of Australia, but definitely Melbourne is for sure. We are cultured, I think, in different ways. What's it like growing up in a family of 13 kids? I think that I have a different appreciation for growing up in a large family now that I'm an adult and on my own versus when I was younger. I think when I was growing up, I wanted desperately to be on the other side of the pasture. I wanted to be the only child. I wanted everything to be about me. I didn't want to share. I didn't want to have to compromise privacy, just all of those things. Now as an adult, I really like being connected in a way that can't be controlled and can't be changed. I really like that. I like

having siblings because as adults now, we're friends, most of us, you know, and I don't know. I really like it. We we've shared the same like life experiences, but have perceived them at times in very different ways. I always feel like there's a group of people who always have my back in some way, shape or form. And I think that that it feels safe. And I think a lot of people probably want what I have and just don't and never will. And so I have definitely have an appreciation for it now. Yeah. Where do you come in the order of things in the family?

I am the fifth from the top. So there's four older than me and eight younger than me. Oh, wow. And in terms of like gender balance, how many boys, how many girls? You know, it was balanced for a while. We have seven boys and six girls. And for a while, it was not a while, but it was like probably a good two or three years where it was six girls and six boys. And then my youngest brother came and the boys

won. Isn't that always the way in life as well? Really? With that, do you think you were raised differently as a girl? Oh, absolutely. And partly because I was raised Muslim. And so there's definitely a difference in the rearing and upbringing of a Muslim boy versus a Muslim girl. I think just period society all over the world, there's a certain expectation of modesty, of behavior, of self-control, that a girl should have a certain protection. People feel like girls should have. So yeah,

I think my brothers got a bit more liberty. I also think that they got a bit more time with my father because in our house, my father dealt with the boys a lot. And when it came to dealing with the girls in certain capacity, it's like, that was my mom's role. Why do you think that was? I think it definitely has to do with, like I said, religion and just like the practice of it. You know, like if you, if you, I'm not sure if you've ever been to a mosque, but men and women are very separate. And so the household is sometimes like that as well. But also I just think that we have gender norms in society that have been around since the beginning of time. And I think that from a young age, girls are taught to be a certain way, do a certain thing. And I think that boys are

taught to protect in a certain way. And as the protector, you get a bit more freedom. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I even see it now. I think in a lot of us, it's subconscious and we don't, because it's so ingrained in a societal way. Completely. But don't get me wrong. I've never felt like completely imbalanced. I can go and ask my father one thing and he tells me no, and then my brother asks the same exact thing. And he's like, sure. Like I never experienced any of that.

But, you know. There were differences. Absolutely. Yeah. How did you end up in comedy as a woman really? I know this is quite a gendered conversation, but I'm really interested in this because if you've grown up in a really conservative Muslim family, it strikes me that you've completely broken out of the mold in a way.

How did you end up as you? I think that I've always broken the mold, to be honest with you. I mean, I remember covering up know, covering up from like the time that I can remember, like the earliest memory I have, I'm dressed in hijab, you know, I'm wearing like traditional Muslim garb. And I remember being like about 14 or 15 and really, you know, deciding and convincing my father that I'm no longer covering up. And so I think I always, I think that they raised me to be how I am. And sometimes when you teach people to be like strong and independent, sometimes that means that they're going to rise up and go against the thing that you're saying

or wanting them to do. And I just think that that's something that you have to accept that people have a hard time with. But my parents from as early as I can remember, always said, you know, you be a leader. You're not a follower. Like you'll always be a leader. And I'm a middle child. So there's a certain trying to keep up and stand out. So maybe I always had like a performative like bone in me, just, just sheerly by trying to be like seen and noticed that, you know, but yeah, I think that I actually, to be honest with you, I wish that my parents like promoted more of a breaking of the mold because, you know, I went to school and studied like math and education. Maybe I wouldn't have done that. Maybe I would have went directly into the arts, you know, but my parents were born Christian and raised Christian

and they both separate from one another before they met, they converted to Islam. So really they broke the mold first. So if anything, I'm just following in their footsteps in terms of deciding what it is that I want my life to be and doing it. You know, why did they decide to move to Islam? You know, I have no idea. I mean, I mean, I know that they both believe Islam to be like a beautiful faith and religion and practice. And I think that in their search and journey in life, I mean, usually when you change religions, you're in search of something because one thing that you already have isn't serving you, right? And so I imagine that that was the case. And they found

something that really serviced them and felt real and right and resonated with them in Islam. And I mean, as much as I was never Christian, the same thing happened to me. You grow up with your parents telling you what to believe. You're Muslim. You pray five times a day. You don't eat pork. You do this. You do this. Because I said so. Not because you want to, not because you believe it, but because I told you to believe it and because I told you it's right. And it wasn't until I got to college that I explored religion on my own from very different points of entry. And then I was like, okay, I'm Muslim because I choose to be Muslim because it resonates with me because I believe it. This is my shahada.

Shahada is like when you decide to be Muslim. It's an Arabic term. And so that's something that I did on my own as well. What is it about it that resonates with you? Anytime I read or hear hadiths, like verses in the Quran and stuff, they're not hard for me to believe. It's not a practice that leads to a lot of questions for me, if that makes sense. Don't get me wrong. People who preach, people who run like religious centers, they can interpret like holy books and they can make it what they want. But for me, it wasn't, I don't know how else to say it.

It just felt right and it felt true. And it sat with me and it still does. It's like my default setting, to be honest with you. It's the thing that grounds me. It's the thing that keeps me safe in every situation. And I don't mean physically safe. I mean, like, like my mind and my spirit is always sort of, you know, yeah. Oh yeah. And oh my God, this business that I'm in, oh, it's terrible. I want to say it's terrible. You know, it ain't terrible, but it can be quite abusive. It can be very rewarding and it's rewarding when it's rewarding, but when it's abusive, it's also abusive.

And I think the part of me that can be abused naturally in this business, but not let it kill me or destroy me is my faith. Wow. In what way is it abusive in that way? Because that's quite a harsh term. Abusive, right? Oh, well, I mean, listen, yeah, it does sound harsh because it sounds like somebody's punching you in the face. Yeah. Somebody's kicking you in the back. But essentially that's what it is. It's like I go into a room every day or I get on a camera every day. I go after things every single day. I put myself out there. I play these different characters. I write these jokes. I read these lines. I do my hair. I get dressed. I show up. And 99% of those times that I show up and that most of us show up, we get told no. We get told no for so many different reasons.

And a no sometimes is easy to hear if you can change it to a yes the next time. Meaning somebody says, if you're like, if you have a store, right? And somebody is like, yeah, no, I'm not going to go to your store today just because you sell oranges and I want apples. That's really easy, right? So you're like, okay, you know what? We need to get apples too. There's a solution. But when somebody says, oh no, we love oranges, but I'm just going to go, I'm just, I'm going to go to the Apple store today. And you're like, oh, okay, well I have apples too. And it's like, yeah, no, we love your store, but we're just going to go to the other store today. Yeah. That would play with your head so much. Yeah. So your faith, you feel, gives you a grounding and a perspective on that,

an ability to sort of separate from that sort of rejection and that industry? I think that it comforts or I think that it reassures me that the no is not no for everything forever. If you think the no is for everything forever, then you have no motivation to keep going, you know? And I think that it puts things in perspective for me. It's really interesting too, right? Because when you think of something so intangible, like somebody's faith, right? In something that they've never like, belief in something that they've never like, quote unquote, seen. And they're saying that that same intangible thing is giving them something as tangible as a perspective or, you know, it's like, it's so interesting, but, but I mean, it is what it is.

It's why it's so hard to explain, but it's something that you feel and believe in. Yeah, completely. It's so interesting. I grew up really Catholic in a really Christian house. And I totally get that idea that my parents also raised me to question everything and be really deeply analytical about our faith. And we often had arguments around the table about issues. And so then it's quite interesting because my siblings have had the same thing where you can't raise kids in an environment where you're challenging them to think very deeply and then expect them to often think exactly the way you do. Exactly.

It's so funny, I guess, and it's a gift to have parents like that, that, you know, challenge you and make you think really critically about your life and examine who you are. But it is so funny, isn't it, because there's an element in Christianity and Catholicism that's completely anti-feminist in a lot of ways. And I would really be curious to ask about your perspective on the Muslim faith and feminism and where you're at with that interplay. I think a person's religious practice, for the most part, is their own, right? So I have met Muslim women on a wide spectrum of or wide range of Muslim women who are very faith-filled and very strict, but they don't cover up. And then I've met Muslim women who

completely cover up, but their practice and their belief isn't, you know, but for whatever reason, they don't have it in them to say, I don't want to do this. Like I've met all types and I do what services me. I do what I'm most comfortable with. And asking for people to respect that, I also have to respect what someone else is most comfortable with. There's certain practices that it just is what it is. And I'm also like a choose your battle type of person, right? So like I told you earlier, at a mosque, usually the men and women are separate, right? Sometimes, depending on how the mosque is set up, it's a different floor.

It could be a separate room. It could be a separate building. Sometimes you're in the same room, but the men are in the front and the women are in the back. Now, it's not a fight for me in the world of feminism to be like, I want to be in the front while we pray. No, no, no. Because that's not why I'm there, you know, but if it's about a man dictating in the name of Islam that I should be or do a certain thing, that's where my line in the sand is. But my line in the sand isn't everybody else's line in the sand. Some Muslim women are not going to pursue the thing that they love. Let's say the thing that they love is stand-up comedy. They're not going to do it because they are Muslim, because their families won't, their communities won't accept it. I will be excommunicated from that community. You know what I'm saying? That's the fight that I am willing

to have. And while we are talking about something very specific as feminism, that's in everything. If this parameter doesn't serve me and what I choose to do outside of that parameter serves me and also is of no hurt to anybody else, oh, I'm going to do it. And I don't care what you or your God says. Yeah, totally. Because I think I love that idea because I think there's a separation then between this kind of institutional church or mosque or faith and, you know, organized religion and then the personal in my life to me, what my connection with the spirit or God or something greater than me, the universe is, and then what that means in my life, right? And so, yeah, you can have that. And I mean, I'm no fool, right? So like, I recognize that I live in the United States

of America and I'm not going to be arrested for not wearing hijab. I'm not going to be snatched in the street if I'm not with a man, you know, but I do recognize that there are countries where that is law, right? And in those countries, if I happen to be there, I'm going to abide by the law as restrictive as it may be, because I'm not insane. I don't want to die. Same way. The same way it don't make sense to me that jaywalking, it's like, if there's no cars coming, why can't I cross the street? Right. But people don't jaywalk because it's against the law. So I see it as the same, the same way. Oh, if I'm in an Islamic country where women have less, you know, freedoms by law, because that's the law of the country, then I'm in an Islamic country where women have less freedoms by law, because that's the law of

the country, then I'm either not visiting that country or when I'm there, I'm going to abide by the rules of law. Yeah, absolutely. Or suffer the consequence. Yeah, completely. What do your parents and your family think about your standup? I think they like it. I think that they like it. I think that they're proud of me. I think that at first they didn't know what to make of it. But the moment you can see, I never got my parents' permission for anything. Once I became an adult, I never consulted them on like, this is going to be my life's choice. How do you feel about it? I've never been that type of person. I've never been that type of person with my siblings. I just do what I want to do and I allow people to catch up. And so, so at first I think they

were just like, okay, it's like my mom got 13 kids. So as long as I'm not like dead on drugs, you know what I'm saying? Like she don't got to worry about it. Like I've given her nothing to worry about. So then on top of it, as time goes on and she's like, oh, wow, my daughter has taken care of herself. My daughter has built a career for herself. My daughter has been able to provide certain things for me and experiences for me that I've never had by way of this performative career that she's chosen. So I have no other choice but to support it. My mom actually over supports it. Like she'll call me and say, are you getting on stage? Okay. Make sure you put eyeliner on Zainab. Cause you know,

if you get on camera without, I never knew I could, I'm looking at myself in the camera now and I'm like, Oh, you don't got nothing on you. You need some help. But I guess I didn't know that my mom knew that before I ever knew that though. So the first, my first couple of times on like getting on stage and doing standup on like TV, she was like, make sure you have your eyeliner on. Your eyes get lost. You have to have your eye. And I'm like, listen, well, she knows. So she knows. Is she funny? Is it a funny family? So, I mean, my material, I talk a lot about them. I think that they're very funny. Are they funny like me? Meaning like they can look at certain situations, see the funny in it or make the funny in it and then relay it to a group of strangers.

No, that's why I'm getting paid to do what I do. But they are a very funny source. They're like everybody else in the world, in my opinion, meaning they are so funny in the moments where they don't know that they're funny. That is not just my family. That's my friends. That's like almost everybody that I'm around. They are so funny to me, which is why I stay around them because they're like such good material and inspiration. But it's like, no, my sister, my older sister, she's married to a doctor, right? So she introduces herself as doctor. She introduces herself with the doctor title. She's dead serious when she does that. Now, I see the hilarity in it. I see the absurdity in it. But she's like, no, my husband's a doctor.

And just like I took his last name, I'm taking his professional title. Good on her. It's ridiculous. That is so amazing. What are some of the funny things your parents see? My dad has passed away, but a very funny thing he used to do was, I'll never forget this. He used to like talk to himself like full on, like not like a schizophrenic, right? Like I know. Cause you say that like he used to talk to, wait, was your dad mentally ill? No. like he would process out loud and I would just watch him

process out loud. And I would be like, you know, you're talking to yourself. And he would look at me and be like, as long as I don't answer myself, it's okay. And I used to think that that was so funny. And now I find myself processing out loud as well. So I take like, I'm, you know, I'm a New Yorker originally. And so I do something that's very uncommon in LA. I take long walks just to like clear my mind. Right. And on those long walks or runs, I'll, I mean, I even did them in Melbourne. I I'll start processing. I'll be doing my jokes. Like I'll be working out a joke or an idea, a thought. But I have to hear myself. So I'm doing it out loud. I'm like full, fully into it. And I don't realize I'm doing it until maybe somebody answers me.

Like maybe a stranger is like, oh, what did you say something? And I'm like, wait, I know this is I ain't talking to you. Like, wait, like you pulled me out of my, you know, like my creative space. Yeah, exactly. And so I remember when it first started happening, I'm like, oh, my God, I do what my father used to do. And, you know, it's crazy. A couple of years into me doing stand up, my mom told me, she says, Zaynab, you know your father would be so proud of you. And I was like, really? And she said, yeah, you know, he always wanted to be a comedian. And I was like, no, I didn't know that. That's something that we never talked about. And also the way that he was processing that I thought was very funny. It's the thing that I do, like, I don't know of any of my other siblings to do that thing that we do, you know? She is long-winded and she don't give a shit. I used to tell this joke about her. I used to tell this joke about her. I can't remember all of it, but it was something along the lines of because she's had so many kids, we have to answer her phone call. There's nothing

that we can be doing that's more important than whatever she needs at the moment. Right. But then when you answer her phone call, it's not urgent, you know, and it'll be like long winded. She'll be like, hey, Zaynab, you know, Diane. And I'm like, no, I don't know, Diane. And she's like, Zaynab, you know, Diane, Diane, the one that owns the taco shop. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. Diane. What about Diane? And she's like, Zaynab, Diane, the one with the three boys. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know who Diane is. Like, what's the story? And she's like, Zaynab, Diane, you know, Diane. Where's the sweaters, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know who Diane is. Like, what's the story? And she's like, Zainab, Diane, you know, Diane, that wears the sweaters. I'm like, yo, we know who Diane is. Yeah. But it's like, she, she will, it's like, she's going to put out as many examples as she wants to, to get to, you know, about Diane. And it's like,

we've already, we've already crossed that part of the conversation and she, and I can bring it to her attention. Like, mom, you gave me 14 examples of who Diane is. I've already confirmed I know exactly who Diane is. What is it? Can you move on? And she's like, no, I'm going to take my time and talk the way I want to. I'm going to speak the way I want to speak because I've earned it. And I'm like, oh, yeah, she has.

13 kids. Holy moly. But I don't know if she wants. Yeah, but I mean, that's the way that she's funny. Oh, God. Parents are endlessly endlessly funny they're so strange I think and the fact that you come from them too and then you become who you are I know you said you talk out loud on this show we talk a lot about sort of inner critic and what we think about ourselves in our heads and how that manifests do you have a voice in your head I call call mine Maud. I've called her a name. She's not very kind. Do you have a harsh inner critic? Have you got a cheerleader in there?

I think I have both, but I think more often, and this is for most of us, we have the negative voice. I don't give it a name because I don't even really want it to stay around. I'd be trying to get rid of it. I'm like, I don't even want to give you an identity get the fuck up can I get up out of here yeah yeah you know so but I definitely hear like that voice that's like you're not good enough you can't do it why are you even here oh they gonna realize you are a fraud like all that all of that type of stuff and I think I've like, I think that I've learned enough and understand myself enough and, you know, believe enough to like quiet that voice really quick. I have like practices and tactics that combat that. But I think also too, like there's

a voice that's like shows up every so often. It's like, yo, you are the shit. And I like that voice. I should give her a name because every so often she, she shows up and it's like, oh, that's, that's what we do. Yo, I forgot. You are, look at you. Look at, you know, it's like the hype woman, you know, look at you. Okay. Every, every, especially a woman needs that voice in her head okay oh it's so true isn't it what do you do to kind of keep that voice around more than in a critic nasty voice because I think and especially for women I think that's more heightened right yeah for some reason I feel like guys have a lot more

cheerleaders in their head in general. I don't know why, but I feel like that's- No, I just think that they are less vulnerable in expressing it. I mean, sure, there's like this, definitely most of us are living within a patriarchal constraint, right? So sure, it may seem safer even consciously for male, right? But no, you talk to enough guys, especially a comedian. Like, you know, comedians, we're on stage, we get to survey a room, we talk to people after the DMs I get. I'm like, these dudes are bonkers, insecure, and women were just up front with it. And so we wear it. And so it seems like it's more prevalent, but it's like, that's why it's safe.

That's why we're not serial killers. Because we're meeting with our girls and we're like, yo, I'm going crazy. There's a voice in my head, girl. I hate myself today. Can we do something about it? That's the thing that stops us from kidnapping people and chopping them up. But men are like exactly the same in their head. Oh my God, I hate myself. Nobody likes me. I'm not smart enough. I don't have enough money. I'm not funny. Nobody likes me. And because we are in this patriarchal society, I got to be a man and I can't show it. So, oh my God, when nobody's looking,

I'm going to kill somebody. Matter of fact, I'm going to kill a bunch of people. I feel like I just did a bit and I didn't plan on doing a bit. I've never done that before. I've never done it on stage. I've never. I think you need to keep that in for sure. If that comes out in your next show, I will be really impressed. Definitely. But you know what? That is so true. I was watching something with a female politician recently who was talking

about how women often get called too emotional. And now that you said that, she said, actually, she's been in politics 20 years. She said, it's men don't articulate when they're feeling emotional. And so they make decisions from an emotional place, but they're not saying it's an emotional place. So that sometimes can be more dangerous because they're yelling and they're aggressive and they make like a snap decision. And obviously this is a really gendered conversation and it's a spectrum and hashtag not all men, not all women, you know, we're all different individuals and people.

But I thought that was interesting from someone in politics. Yeah. I think it's also interesting that we say something is too much when it's a very, you know what emotion is? Emotion is empathy. Emotion is empathy. Emotion is love. Emotion is compassion. And so to say that somebody can have too much of it is probably an incorrect, is the thing we shouldn't say anyway. Now we can talk about experiencing emotions. We can talk about rational and irrational behavior, and we can talk about the choices we make given our emotions.

But to say someone is too emotional seems like oxymoronic in and of itself. I like that word. Oxymoronic. Oxymoronic. That's good. I like that's kind of what I'm exploring with this show. The idea that our emotions are just as powerful and valid as studying science, studying maths, studying engineering. I think we need to all be able to articulate them so we can navigate the world more easily and with more empathy and understand people from different perspectives. Coming to that, actually, I'll change tack a little bit. Coming to America.

I asked you to give me a show that meant a lot to you. Why coming to America? Well, you said a show or a movie, right? Because it's a show or a movie. Yeah, a show or a movie. Coming to America is my favorite. It's my favorite film. I don't think I've ever watched a movie more times than I've watched that movie.

And during the pandemic, okay, I know the movie by heart. I think it's a brilliant movie. And I think that it's so funny that people forget that it's actually like a romantic story. It's a story about love, right? And I love stories about love. And I watched it during the pandemic. A friend of mine and I, we went to a drive-in movie theater, you know, at the height of the pandemic where you can't be outside, you you know but you're looking for something to do and whatever and they were showing coming to america and because it's one of my favorite films we wanted to drive and then being from the east coast like we don't have

drive-in movie theater so we were like let's do it and i saw it from a very different lens this time it's still a movie that i love but i noticed I noticed that for no reason at all, the love interest was this lighter skinned woman and her sister who doesn't get the man or doesn't get the praise, right? Is darker skinned, is like my complexion or darker. And it's not so much that they're different complexions, it's the attributes attached to those aesthetics. So not only was the love interest light skinned, right? But she was also cultured, smart, career oriented. She was conservative. Yeah, she was conservative. Yeah. She was sweet. And the darker skinned sister was fast. She was overly sexed. She was raunchy. She didn't really have nothing going on. We didn't know what she did. You know what I'm saying? What's her ambition? Even the way the father of the two girls, even his narrative for the daughters was that he had

a certain hope or belief that this daughter was going to amount, the light-skinned daughter was going to amount to something that the dark-skinned daughter wasn't. And they don't say any of that in the film, but it's subliminal. You know what I'm saying? It's in the subtext. And when you watch it from the lens of a 30-something-year-old Black woman in America, and you realize it's been your favorite film for 30 years, it's like, oh, wow, we were doing it back then. They're still doing it today. And it's not just, you know, a lot of conversation when we talk about feminism, when we talk about colorism, when we talk about racism, a lot of times we like to point the finger at other people and saying, you're doing this to us. And a lot of times, I don't think we take

responsibility for doing it to ourselves as well. Many women who would call themselves feminists oppress women, or they set up structures that are... Now, they may not oppress women that look like them, but they're still oppressing women. There's very many Black productions and Black people that will say, oh, you know, the man and wife, they're doing this, they don't let us do this. And then when we're in a position to change that thing, we do the same thing, you know? And I just thought that it was very interesting that for the first time in my life, I had seen this film that brought me so much joy from this sort of like sociopolitical perspective, if that makes sense. Totally. Did you still enjoy it?

Absolutely. It's still my favorite film. That is a thing, isn't it? Because it's- Yeah, as much as it is, as much as I noticed that, and as much as it is still coming to America, the original one is more funny than it is anything else. So anything you give me, if you say, oh my God, it's sexist, it's racist, it's prejudice, is, is dated.

It's like, oh my, that's like nobody, like that's such a misrepresentation of anywhere in Africa, right? Whatever you want to say about it, it is more funny than that thing you can say about it. And because it is more funny than that thing that you can say about it, it's still enjoyable. It still has joy in it. I know because it was made in 1988, right? And stars Eddie Murphy and written by Eddie Murphy, David Sheffield and Barry Bloystein, I guess that's how you say his name.

And it's about a pampered African prince who travels to Queens looking for a woman of intelligence and strong will. So on the surface, it does have that message, right? That, you know, women should be valued for more than what they look like. And Eddie Murphy's just bloody awesome in it. Yeah. Are you a big fan of his? I'm a huge fan of Eddie Murphy's. When people ask me now, who's your favorite comic? It's like Eddie Murphy hasn't done standup since coming to America. And I still say he's my favorite comedian. And I think it's because everything that I saw of his, I saw after they came. Because it's like I saw Ruan Delirious, but it's like I'm either a baby when that came out or not even here. So I'm seeing it after its height. Right. But it impressed upon me in such a way that he is forever cemented as my favorite person to see doing my favorite thing. Meaning I don't care how good of

an experience I have watching somebody now, even my, except myself, maybe. Yeah, I love it. Me too. I can still go and watch either Raw or Coming to America or, you know, Trading Places, and it just has such a place in my heart that is unmatched. Yeah. What's your favourite part of Eddie Murphy in that film, in Coming to America?

I watched it again last night for this and I had forgotten that he was, he played those different characters. You're absolutely right. I think that my favorite part of Eddie Murphy's Coming to America is that he played so many characters. Like he played the pastor. He played the pastor. He played the pastor. He played the barber. He played the Jewish guy. He played, which is my favorite thing. My favorite quote from that movie is, okay, okay. It's the very end. It's like when the Jewish guy tells the joke about the spoon in a restaurant and the soup. When I first started comedy, I was in this comedy class or something. And they were like, okay, when you come in, we need you to tell your favorite joke, like go to a comedian special and tell your favorite joke. And I went in and I did

that joke. And they were like, what comedian? I was like, oh, it's from a movie. It's from coming to America, but it's like my favorite thing. He played the singer, he played sexual chocolate. And then he played himself or he played like an African prince you know which he just decided this is what a prince in Africa is and I'm gonna be that and I didn't know until I was like until years later that Zamunda wasn't a real place like people people don't people don't acknowledge that like Zamunda was like the first Wakanda. Like, no, it's not superheroes, but like, that's the place that we thought was like, yeah, that's Africa. That's,

you know, and it's like in a satirical comedy, this is so obscure, right? This is so freaking obscure. But the thing that, one of the things that I laughed at very early, if you remember when he's walking like out, like by the like kingdom with his father and he's like, but I want to find my own bride. Like he's basically that that moment is about autonomy. Right. That that moment is about choosing what we've been talking about this entire podcast, going against tradition, going against norms and choosing for yourself, forging your own path, right? And so when he's talking to his father about that, an elephant passes by and Eddie Murphy says, hello, Babar. And if you, I don't know if you grew up on the books with the elephant named Babar in the cartoon, the fact that he would say, hello, Babar, like nothing. That's not even like a joke, like this is the joke of the film. That's so subtle and obscure. But those are the things that you appreciate either watching it the first time or watching it the 19th time, you know?

Completely, completely. I loved it. And James Earl Jones is just brilliant too. Just so good. What I did notice though, because now I'm watching it with this lens, there is so many like half-naked women in the movie. It's just full of beautiful women's bodies and it struck me, did you ever think that there's that kind of subtle message about the worth? I know he's saying that the worth of a woman is about her mind and all of that stuff, but there's that subliminal messaging about what a woman's worth really is around her body

and beauty. Well, yeah. And you noticed that the love interest, the love interest that he eventually falls for, we never see her. We see her look great, but we also see her, she always looks quote unquote pure, right? Everything is so, her attire is so feminine, but respectful. Feminine, but completely covered.

You know what I'm saying? Like that's subliminal right yeah because Patrice has to start oh Patrice is always taking off her clothes she feeling on his private at the get-go yeah I couldn't believe that the dark-skinned girl it's like they make they make us like like we're so sex-driven and so like you know and I I mean, it is, it is quite interesting. I do think that, I mean, like, we're not going to pretend like there's not misogyny running rapid, right? Rampant. Yeah. But so, and then that's in the eighties, that's in the late eighties. So it's like nowhere near the conversations that we're having now, which is why when coming to America too, which recently came out right on Amazon, that's the reason why they sort of kind of flipped it. Like instead of having like the

female rose, the female bathers who were like naked and we're seeing these women's breasts and you know, it's like, oh, I thought that you, I thought that you had sex with your bathers. Like when you think about that, it's crazy. Yes. But that's the reason why now in part two, of course, it's a different conversation 30 years later, right? Of course, it's a different conversation. And it's like, well, yeah, now women are expressing themselves and having more power over their sexual freedom and choices and stuff like that. So we'll make the, it's like two things. It's like one, yes, we're going to make the bathers men now, right? We're going to show the other side of that. But also the thing that I don't want to forget in our pursuit of like equality and our our constant reassessing of things as we move forward as a society is that a story is told

from a certain perspective. So that story was told very much from the male perspective. The person that we're following is a male, our lead character, our hero, he's male. It's written from the male perspective. And so there's going to be a certain aspect of it that's going to involve, you know, how he- Titties? Yeah. Thank you. Ass and titties. Ass and titties. God. Sorry, I'm such a dog. Anyway. I mean, it's true. I was trying to dance around it so I'm happy that you just stepped on you know you just because I'm definitely trying to dance around it so but it is right I mean I guess yeah that's what it's about it's the male gaze hey yeah yeah I Yeah. I wanted to ask you too about this. Do you think colorism is something you experience now

in the culture for you personally? In comedy specifically, because comedy is just like a subset of the world, right? And contrary to the tiptoeing around the talk of racism or the acknowledgement of, you know, deep rooted racism, right? And colorism is only an extension of racism. Yeah, absolutely. It's alive and well. And because comedy is only a subset of this world, it definitely exists there. You know, you have a lot of women who are women of color, not just black women of color who, and specifically like women of color who are also literally of color. And so this is, this is such a large topic, right? So I don't want to, I have to be careful what I say, because it's like, even if you are a woman of color, but still like lighter skin, even if you're a black woman, but still lighter skin, you may experience more privilege because it's just, it's literally

an extension of racism, right? Which is at its simplest form, the discrimination based on what you look like, right? Based on the color of your actual skin. It's the easiest identifier. I'm sure. I'm sure I experience it. Is it in my face and bold in my face? Maybe not, but here's why I think that is. I think that a lot of other things about me sort of combat that thing. Like, yes, I am a dark woman. I am a dark skinned black woman, but I'm also very tall. I'm also attractive. I'm also thin. I'm also smart and very funny and relatable and aspirational. And those things kind of, does that make sense? My path, while I know that there is extreme levels of inequality and extreme levels of discrimination and a wildly unbalanced world or pool of opportunities for the different women in my space, my story ain't nearly the same story

as my other funny friend who is also dark, but also larger. Yeah. And also a very different personality. And do you get what I'm saying? Like if, oh, if you think they had Patrice, listen, so we're going to talk about Coming to America, right? Movie that I love, but it also, it exposes so many awful things that exist, right? And it's all, again, I have to keep saying this, it is all just a spinoff of the origin, which is just racism. You know, it's just racism is what it is. While Patrice is the dark-skinned one, Patrice is still skinny and she's still, right? So it's not that bad because it's like, all Patrice got to do is find some sense and she'll be okay. She ain't unattractive. She ain't,

right? But now at the beginning of the movie, when they're presenting Imani, which might be the which is supposed to be the new queen. Right. The woman who presents her is this big woman. She skills me coming through. Move, move, coming through. It's like, why did that characteristic? Why did that portrayal of this dark, large, voluptuous woman. And then when they realized that she wasn't the bride, when Akeem and Simi, who was Eddie Murphy and Arsenio Hall, when they realized that that wasn't the bride, she was only presenting the bride, what was his reaction? He eye rolls. I write it down. It made me real mad. Thank God I'm not. Oh my God. Imagine if we had to marry her. It's like, what? What? What? And it's such a tiny moment as well. It's such a fleeting three seconds in the film,

probably no one even noticed. It wasn't a, oh, we're going to make sure larger women know that what we think of their particular body type and voice and vocal loudness. Yeah. You know, it's so subconscious. And at the very least, they're going to be the butt of our joke because that's the joke here. Oh, my God, thank God. That's not the bride.

That's the joke. Yeah. You know? I know. Simply because the joke. Yeah. You know, simply because the joke doesn't work if she is attractive, whatever color she is. If she is an ideal body type and attractive and she's like, excuse me, coming through, coming through, excuse me. And she's like, I'm presenting. There's no joke there. That's not funny. People would say, well, why isn't she the bride? Who's she? You know? Yeah. Yes, completely. And it's something that is so prevalent in so

many movies that we watch. And particularly, I think, because I'm 35, our generation, obviously, it's probably even worse for the back. But that era of film around women's bodies and having to be that particular aesthetic is so damaging, I think. Even the cartoons, like I've done an episode on the cartoons that we watch as kids and all of that messaging. And I don't have that type of body shape. And I know as a kid, I internalized those messages that are hidden. You know, those three second jokes, they're the dangerous ones, I think, because it's not overt. And you know what? Like, I think sometimes when I have, when we have like a colorism conversation, it seems like colorism only exists within communities

of color, but that's not true. It's like, you just said cartoon, think of Scooby-Doo. Who was the aspirational, like love interest? It was not Velma. It was the tall, blonde one. Velma was the brunette and not as tall and not as thin. And they made her smart. Yeah. And they put glasses on her. So heaven forbid a woman that can do things and has glasses and a voice, oh, well, she's the one that you wouldn't want to be then. Exactly, exactly, yeah. It's like even in She's All That, that's like stupid, you know, those movies that I bloody loved.

I love all those movies. Oh, I love She's All That. Oh, so good. And Freddie Prinze Jr., you know, but it's the same. Like she's got glasses on and suddenly she's unattractive. She takes her glasses off. Oh, she's attractive now. You know, it's like women that can do things are not as attractive

as women who look a certain way. And that narrative of like transformation is in so much. I remember as a kid all I wanted was that transformation arc of like coming out in a dress and being like, and now she's beautiful, you know? So here's what I'll say to that. And this might be a little bit too heavy. Even in those tropes, you get to take off your glasses and put on a dress, right? I can never take off my skin.

I knew it. I knew it was going to to halt I knew that it was going to halt the conversation for a second but it's like it is what it is that's that's really an understanding that I want you to have you know it's like yeah did they and then you take off the glasses and she gets now we see the swan and it's like, all right, but see the affliction that I have, I can't even remove it. So do I ever get to be the swan? Yeah. You know? I mean, I think you're a bloody swan.

Oh, yeah, me too. Beautiful. Me too. Yeah, but you're absolutely right because that narrative of, oh, well, she can lose the weight as well is that dangerous narrative. Is that something that you ever felt growing up that you wished you could be a different color, like a different skin color? No, sorry. I mean, I didn't mean to say it so fast, but part of my parents converting to Islam, and I didn't think about this until you just said it, but, you know, history of black people in America, the African diaspora originally in America is the transatlantic slave.

Right. So I think a lot of our roots in Christianity is synonymous with slavery. And so I think that there were a lot of black people, Black Americans, Black families looking for some other identity. And because this promise of a perfect afterlife came through Christianity, it's like sometimes you look for that identity in another religion. And that's what led a lot of people to, a lot of Black Americans to Islam. There was a nation of Islam, which is not just Islam, but it's a Black nationalist group. So there's identity there. There's protection there. There's a certain association there. And so I grew up in that house. I grew up in, I'm Black and I'm proud. Black is beautiful. This is the thing that, I grew up from that vantage point. I also grew up with a father who

was very fair skinned and every moment that I can ever remember reminded me how beautiful and how special I am and was just as I am. You know, I would do a lot of things to try and be like other girls when I was younger, change my hair. And my father always told me, you look the best when you are being you. Nobody can ever, your beauty is unmatched, but you got to know your beauty as long as you do what your beauty is. You get what I'm saying? And I think that that's the thing that I had as a very young kid from my father. And I think that that has helped me. So no, I never wanted to be, and I experienced racism, you know, like overt racism, overt racism. I remember being at a pool with my white friends, being the only black person there. And, you know, a girl like having a problem with me at a young age, like I'm talking about like nine and telling me, oh, I need to go get some white paint. And I was like a baby, like a baby in the sense of like,

I didn't, when she said that to me, that didn't hurt me. That didn't make sense. Like white paint for what? What are we painting? Like, what is she talking about? You know, that's what I was like, oh, we, we got a task now. Like I, you know, but I knew that it was something wrong because everyone around me was like, my God, I'm so sorry. You know, but I knew that it was something wrong because everyone around me was like, my God, I'm so sorry. You know, it's like when a baby falls and they don't know how to react, but when you're like, are you okay? Then the baby is like, I guess I'm not okay. That's what happened to me. I was like, what? Why are you paying? And then everybody was like, are you okay? And I was like, I want to be okay, but I guess I'm not okay. You know?

And, and, and so that was very early, but even in, even in those moments, I want to be okay, but I guess I'm not okay. And so that was very early. But even in those moments, I've always wanted more money. I've always wanted more access. I've always wanted more opportunity. I've always wanted, maybe like access and that's what I can, that's the thing that I've always wanted more of. When you grow up poor, you're like, I just want money, money, money. I want a comfortable life. I want to get everything I want. But in terms of identity, to want to look a different way, I've never wanted that. No. I'm really glad. I think your dad sounded like an incredible person. He was. He was. I'm happy that he was my father. Yeah.

And I'm so sorry that he's gone too, well past. My dad has passed too. And I think it's a precious thing to have a mother too, but there's something about having a father who champions you in that way that is so grounding, you know. It gives you that extra level of ability to launch maybe something. Yeah, absolutely. And you know what's really interesting too? In the way that I speak about him and the way that I feel like I was nurtured and certain things were instilled. One of my older sisters is five years older than me,

and she would not speak of the same experience. I think a lot of her insecurities today stem from maybe her feeling like she didn't have the support from him. And it's like, we'll never know. Do you get what I'm saying? But her experience, that's the thing about being in a big family is that I know my mother and father, but my siblings know a very different mother and father because they're different relationships. We're also personalities. You know, how I know one of my siblings is not how another sibling knows them. And I think that that's something that you realize as you get older as well.

Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? And then it's the memories you have of them looking back and they're your memories, but they're not necessarily the memories of the other people. And 13 different personalities and different memories would be even wider than that. I guess my last question is thinking about Zainab as that nine-year-old girl, what would you say to her now? Ooh, I think she would think that I was like cool as shit. You are, mate. I think, I think that nine-year-old Zainab would think that today Zainab is like quite magnificent. That sounds so arrogant. It feels very arrogant to say, but here's the thing.

It's because nine-year-old Zainab had a lot of fear. And today, Zainab has a lot of fear too. But without a doubt, I operate despite the fear. And I think that that girl, that nine-year-old would be like, look at me. Every moment I chose, I'm a survivor. I'm a leader. I chose to do even when I didn't believe that I can do. And so I think she would be proud. I think she would be proud. What would you say to her? What would I say to the nine-year-old? The first thing that typically comes to my mind is trust yourself. Trust yourself. It's going to serve you. Just trust yourself. But I don't think I would say anything now. I think I would hug her.

I think I would hug her really, really tight. Yeah. I think that I would hug her really tight. Oh, that's beautiful. Don't we all want that really? Isn't that life though? Give that inner inner child that person that was full of fear permission to I don't know it's about loving yourself isn't it yeah yeah you have permission to do that just bloody love yourself you're magnificent yeah and let yourself be that don't be afraid of owning that yeah yeah all right well thank you so much, Zainab. That was just so valuable and awesome. Where can everyone find you? Yay. What's the best way to find me? If you're interested, social media. Like social media on every platform. I'm Zainab Johnson. It's Z-A-I-N-A-B Johnson. My website is Zainab Johnson. On TikTok, I'm the Zainab Johnson. But yeah, if you connect with me online, if you follow me, then you'll be able to keep up with every single thing that I'm doing.

You'll be able to connect with me. Obviously, I want them to listen to, I have a podcast called Honest Tea with Z. That's everywhere you can get podcasts. Check out U on amazon if they if you haven't like check out a hundred humans or history of swear words on netflix like but really on social media like this this that we're doing like you get a lot of this from me you know you just get to kind of like every so often you know i post a story you're gonna feel like you're hanging out with me and don't we all want that? I want that, definitely. And then you'll know, like, where you can see me perform live, and that's always, like, a treat.

Let me not get ahead of myself. Most times it's a treat. So, yeah, just like Zaynab Johnson. Totally. Awesome. Excellent. All right, we're definitely going to do that, guys. And thank you so much.

Thank you. That was awesome. All right. We're definitely going to do that, guys. And thank you so much. That was awesome. Thank you. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with my guest, Zainab Johnson. You can find her on Instagram at Zainab Johnson, that's Z-A-I-N-A-B-J-O-H-N-S-O-N, or on her podcast, Honest Tea with Zee, in all your favorite podcast apps. And if you wouldn't mind, I would bloody love you to leave us a review. You can just do it straight away in app while you're listening on your phone. It would be so helpful. It's the best way to get this show out there. And if you think you have someone in your life who would love this episode or love to listen and find it really funny or interesting or helpful, please share it with them. That would just make my day. Just like James Cameron has made

my day by leaving a review, insightfully refreshing for dudes as well. I'm a 22-year-old male and find the perspectives and experiences shared so interesting and thought-provoking. Thanks so much, James. What a superstar. All right. If you'd like to contact the show with suggested guests or reviews or I don't know, whatever you want to do, you can email the show at tonspod.gmail.com. I also host another podcast with my husband, man, James Clement, that comes out every Thursday. He happens to be Mr. Sunday Movies, and he also has a YouTube channel over there as well. We review everything from Netflix to recipes to books to podcasts and we basically spend an hour making fun of each other

every week and it's one of my favourite things to do. So that's suggestible. It drops on Thursday. All right. A big love to you out there this week and you can find me at Claire Tonti on Instagram where I occasionally tell stories. A big thank you as always to Raw Collings for editing this episode. Okay, bye.