TONTS. - Dirty Dancing with Ellen Steele

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

Jennifer Grey’s character of Baby in the 80s iconic film Dirty Dancing was a revelation writes the Guardian’s Melissa McEwan and in re-watching this classic movie for this episode I whole heartedly agree. I remembered this movie for the swoon worthy Patrick Swayze, the corny but brilliant soundtrack and that lift at the end. In the re-watch I discovered frank, feminist and funny dialogue that while unfolding on a cheesy back drop of the Catskills in the 60s was absolutely ahead of it’s time. During lockdown in Melbourne I rang up my wonderful pal Ellen Steele who is a teacher and educator, a mum and an avid reader of all things pop culture to dissect Dirty Dancing and talk about our approach to raising girls. A chat with El is one of my favourite things to do because she is always across everything I want to be reading and finds equal joy in discussions of parenting dilemmas to politics to the Gwyneth Paltrow’s vulva scented candles. I called her up one night in the depths of the pandemic back in August 2021 when we were experiencing so much uncertainty. Trying to work and parent and frankly survive with no real light at the end of the tunnel yet. As of Friday the 22nd of October Melbourne came out of hibernation and for the first time in a months I was allowed to venture out of my house for whatever reason I damn well pleased. So with this in mind I reckon what a fun time to do a deep dive into one of my favourite feminist movies with my good pal and now yours too, the smart, funny woman that is Ellen Steele. You can find me at @clairetonti on instagram or at www.clairetonti.com and subscribe to my newsletter hereAs always thank you to RAW Collings for editing this week's episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Jennifer Grey's character Baby in the 80s iconic film Dirty Dancing was a revelation, writes The Guardian's Melissa McEwan. And in re-watching this classic movie, specifically for this episode, I wholeheartedly agree. I remember this movie for the swoon-worthy Patrick Swayze, the corny but brilliant soundtrack, and well, that lift at the end. In the re-watch though, I discovered a frank, feminist, funny dialogue that while unfolding on a cheesy backdrop of the Catskills was absolutely ahead of its time. I rang up my wonderful pal, Ellen Steele, who is a teacher and educator, a mum of two little girls and an avid reader of all things pop culture. A chat with Elle is one of my favourite things to do

because she is always across everything I want to be reading and finds equal joy in discussions of parenting dilemmas and politics to Gwyneth Paltrow's vagina-scented candles. I called her up one night in the depths of the pandemic back in August 2021 when we were both experiencing so much uncertainty. Trying to work and parent and frankly survive with no real light at the end of the tunnel was an experience I think I'll never forget.

As of Friday, the 22nd of October, Melbourne has come out of hibernation and for the first time in months, I was allowed to venture out of my house for whatever reason I damn well pleased. So with this in mind, I reckon what a fun time to do a deep dive into one of my house for whatever reason, I damn well pleased. So with this in mind, I reckon what a fun time to do a deep dive into one of my favorite feminist films with a good friend and then commiserate, or maybe the better word is ruminate on the trials and tribulations of parenting girls. Here she is, Ellen Steele. I recommend this episode is best done with a glass of wine in hand and your feet up on the couch. Off we go. Hello, Ellen. How are you doing? Hello. I'm good. I'm going to have to watch the giggling

because I just giggle a lot with you, Tons. We can always edit it out. And I feel like people need giggling at this time in their lives. Don't they? Completely. They really do. They really do. Everything is hard. Everything they really do everything is hard everything is hard everything is hard and so I've had a cocktail you're drinking a wine we're getting through the way we're getting through and one of the ways we're getting through is by talking about dirty dancing I know it's gonna be super fun Would you like to kick off by just talking about your initial impressions after re-watching the film? Yes, well, I think the first way to start is to set the scene of when I first watched the film,

which was, I was year nine, Friends Sleepover. It would have been early 2000s, maybe late 90s. And it was this 80s movie set in the 60s that I'd kind of heard about but never really watched and I loved it at the time and then haven't really watched it since and when you said Dirty Dancing I was like oh okay yeah we can do Dirty Dancing I always loved it and oh I couldn't wipe the smile off my face. I really geeked out on it. It was just for anyone that's debating what to watch this week, get on, I watched it on Stan and watched Dirty Dancing. It just, I found it really delightful.

Yes. Yes. Unexpectedly. Me too because I sort of vaguely had this idea that it was going to be really problematic and really sexist and, look, we can get to some of that stuff. But overall, it was just wonderful to be swept away on a summer holiday in the Catskills.

I just enjoyed it. I agree. I was all ready to get my feminist hat out and be like, oh, this is what's wrong with it and this is, you know. But actually I was mightily impressed and there was a lot of things I'd missed the first time around, but I just really enjoyed it. Oh, it's so good, isn't it? All right.

So, for those who haven't watched it, there's a little spoiler alert here, but I'll just give a recap. So, if you want to stop now, pull yourself a wide, go watch it and then just come back. It was made in the 80s. I think you've had enough time to watch it. Correct. If you haven't seen it, what are you doing with your life? What happened?

So Baby, otherwise known as the actress Jennifer Grey, do we know what her real name is? Did we find that out? I feel like I didn't know. Oh, Frances. Frances. Oh, that's right. Yeah, Frances.

Was that during the sex scene? I can't believe you asked her that oh i think it's just oh yes very sexy i mean to be fair also patrick swayze in this is a dream he i had forgotten how dreamy he is in this and he was about 34 when he did it as well i googled it afterwards she was 25. He was 34. Dreamy. Oh, so dreamy. Just our age, Elle, basically. I know. Roughly. No wonder.

Perfect. Just the perfect age, really. Like a fine wine. Yeah, so Baby is one listless summer away from the Peace Corps. Did you know what the Peace Corps is? Do you know what that is? Isn't that where they go off and do some kind of service? Yeah, in the US.

Oh, disease, I think. Yeah, I think that's what it is too. So she was going, and she's quite political, which I didn't remember either, right? No. And very social justice minded. And she's wearing like some beautiful dresses but also quite cool shirts in this.

That was one of my notes everything she was wearing is cool now high-waisted denim shorts with little blouses and these white um cropped jeans with a shirt that looks so cool I was like I want that for summer and it was very cool costuming as well, which I'd forgotten. But maybe it wasn't so cool in the late 90s when we were wearing, I don't know, sunflower dresses and collars, which are all back in. Yeah, exactly. And then like the age of the skinny jean, you know, with my Bettina Liano jeans that were very low.

So maybe I wouldn't have thought it was as cool. I know. She's just such a, she seems so as, as a character, so cool. So anyway, baby goes up is one summer away from the Peace Corps and she's hoping to enjoy her youth while it lasts. And she's disappointed when her summer plans deposit her at a sleepy resort in the Catskills with her parents. Now the Catskills, I hadn't realised this, but it's like a real thing in that particular kind of American culture, right, to like go to a place like this with a whole lot of other young people

and families in these kind of big resort-style things. Yeah. That we don't really have. It's kind of like summer camp. I always hear about all these kids going away on summer camp, like, you know, the parent trap and you meet your twin or whatever. But, yeah, it's a foreign concept, I think, to us to kind of either go away for a big block of time in one place, in a big, you know, resort, or to send your kids away for a few weeks every summer. Yeah, it's totally different.

So she goes with her parents and her sister as well. And her sister is quite, for want of a better word, girly, shall we say, quite different to Baby. But she finds her luck turns around when the resort's dance instructor, Johnny, enter Patrick Swayze, enlists Baby as his new partner for their dancing. And the two fall in love. So Baby's father forbids her from seeing Johnny, but she's determined to help him perform the last big dance of the summer. Now that's quite like a quick summary of the whole thing. And it just makes it sound so frivolous, but it's not. It is heart and soul and, you know, when you do that summary,

you go, oh, that doesn't sound so great it's amazing no oh it's so amazing okay so shall we just build it up for the audience so the dancing in this obviously there's Patrick Swayze as the dance instructor and his partner and they're like these sexy dancers who are always like performing and then kind of workshopping all these rich couples in these dances and kind of around everywhere. And there's a podcast that I listen to called The Bechtel Test, and they coined the phrase sexy poor, which sounds really terrible, right? But it's basically this idea that baby and her family are

quite well to do and then she stumbles upon all of the kind of the behind the scenes stuff so when you said sexy poor to begin with I thought p-a-w I was like, maybe there's some sexy pouring going on. P-O-O-R. Yes. However, there are also sexy pouring of people in this as well, absolutely. Because obviously, oh, God, because baby, when she's, you know, a bit bored with her family or whatever and they're dancing in, like, this very formal setting with the dance instructors and they do this beautiful dance as, know, a bit bored with her family or whatever, and they're dancing in, like, this very formal setting

with the dance instructors, and they do this beautiful dance as, like, a showcase. Yeah. But then behind the scenes, the management of the hotel are really, like, looking down on them all the time and for some reason always kind of yelling at Johnny, Patrick Swayze's character, and saying things like, you shouldn't be saying that, Johnny.

You better not go anywhere near these ladies. Like in this real, like only dancing for you. But then like the waitstaff who are like these like kind of college boys. Ivy League. Are the ones, Ivy League, who he enlisted to like the manager to schmooze the like women or the young ladies or something that he says they're allowed to do more and take them out to the woods and smooch them and whatever else so there's this real class to find going on anyway so that baby starts to notice all of that and then she follows

one of the dancers and stumbles on coin the the sexy poor, who are all dirty dancing in this kind of barn thing. And they are all so sexy. Yeah. All of them. Yeah. Yeah, they're really, like, I don't really even know what that dance is called. Do you know what? That was the thought that I had watching it,

one that I haven't been out dancing for a very long time with two little kids. Oh, my gosh. I don't think I ever danced like that when I did go out. That was next level. Oh, because it's when all the staff clock off, right, not the Ivy Leagues, just like everyone else, and like all the artists who apparently lower class or something.

That is terrible but yeah they're all just like super flexible as well and like I know they're dancers but also they just start from the hotel and they're like rolling around and like jiving in this like really full-on way so funny to me which leads me to my favourite line, which was baby, because to get into the sexy core, I should stop saying that. It's a terrible phrase. Anyway, you know, bonanza of dancers.

Yeah. She carries a watermelon. Yeah, bonanza. The sexy bonanza that's happening in this, like, shed. She follows one of the dancers and he lets her carry a watermelon, which is why she gets to be carried in. And Johnny bursts in with his partner and they do their dance and everyone thinks they're an item or baby does,

but she finds out they're not. And then he comes over to talk to her and she says, I carried a watermelon. Because he's like, she should be here. I just delighted in that moment so much. Jennifer Grey is excellent. She is excellent. And what I really liked, I'm sure we'll get to it later,

but what I really liked about the baby character was, yes, they kind of sexy her up for later on when she has to do that kind of fancy dance with Johnny. But actually, for the most part, he kind of seems to like her for her. Like he says, he says, no, you don't change and you care about people and, you know, you've got values and that's what I so admire about you. And I think that's pretty awesome. I don't think we see that all the time, you know. You see all these teen movies where the girl has to be sexified and totally change and that wasn't in this, which I really enjoyed.

Yeah, I really loved that too. I thought that dynamic between them was really great and fun and it kind of flips how you thought it might go on its head. You know, like she has autonomy in their relationship, I think. Yeah. That I don't think I thought she had. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. Yeah. And I also, I think I thought maybe he took advantage of her or something. But that's actually not the narrative of the story. No, no. advantage of her or something but that's actually not the narrative of the story no no she's a very willing and um as you said autonomous decision maker in it which is really she swept away in it

obviously because it's Patrick Tracy teaching how to dance but you know it seems equal I think they seem like equal yeah I didn't remember it as such. No. It's interesting. I totally agree. And I think that she actually also just really enjoyed that finding that part of herself, you know, because she's young and you can kind of see her sexuality opening up in that whole thing,

in that trajectory of that coming of age. And rather than that being a bad thing, it's actually a really kind of wonderful thing. And, you know, standing up to her father as well, because I really, I was, I hadn't forgotten as well that they do deal with some darker themes, right? So the reason why baby has to, you know, go and do the last big dance of the summer and train to be a dancer with Patrick Swayze, all hinges on the fact that his dance partner is pregnant and doesn't want to be but can't afford an abortion

and she's pregnant to one of the Ivy League guys who has just disowned her and said he doesn't want anything to do with her. And so that's kind of the crux of the problem that baby then steps up to try and solve I thought that was really interesting did you have any notes on that part yeah because I looked into I did a bit of background research into it and they were talking to the writer about that and how she got a lot of backlash about keeping it in and a lot of people say no you've got to take that out this is the 1980 know. It was set in the 60s but it was made in the 1980s. And she said,

I can't because literally that's what the whole film is about, that if that goes, there's no reason for baby to have to help and there's no reason for baby to have to learn the dance. And that's why they're able to keep it in, which I thought was a really interesting approach to trying to keep that key storyline that probably would have been cut in other movies. Absolutely. Well, the writer was Eleanor Bergstein, and I was surprised too because it was produced by Linda Gottlieb and directed by Emil Ardolino. So it's quite a female-led creative team as well.

For 1987, I mean, that was pretty unheard of yeah you know even which makes it now yes exactly even now exactly which I know it's something like one in 10 writers of screenwriters and women something like that yeah yeah and I I thought that was just so inspiring. And also, as often happens when I start looking at films like this, it makes sense. It makes sense why the sexuality and the kind of buildup of tension in the movie and, like, just the general hotness of Patrick Swayze,

but also their relationship, all of it is a really feminine energy to it. Like it's got that kind of beautiful narrative art that this is a big generalisation but I do think women need in that build-up, right? Even the sex scene I think is really something you can get into, you know, as opposed to some of the other sex scenes we see in films that are just like bam, wham, and she's like immediately happy and it's all la-di-da fine. You know? I do.

I do. And what I also like about it, which I've only just thought of, is it shows women that they can be this and, not this or. You can be smart and have this wonderful, great relationship and, you know, very sexually charged. It's not an and or, and that's so often not what we see on film in particular. It's women are very, you know, one-dimensional and you just have to kind of take, oh yes, there's the sexy girl, oh there's the smart girl, whereas this is both, which seems kind of revolutionary. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I totally think that's revolutionary.

And it feels truer, right, because women aren't just one-dimensional and there isn't just the blonde bombshell. I mean, even Johnny's dance partner, Penny, she's ostensibly the blonde bombshell, right, of the movie. And when the movie kind of sets it up as her being this incredible, sexy, kind of amazing dancer, but then very quickly she has this really complicated storyline and this really difficult back history where she's come from no money really and no support network. And so her only means of, you know, keeping things afloat is dancing. And so for her, falling pregnant is literally an end point for her because she's unmarried at that time. She doesn't have any autonomy or ability to make money any other way. And her and baby have that kind of difficult conversation

and baby's quite shocked by that, I think, because she is quite sheltered in a lot of ways. But then going to her father, her father is a doctor. What did you think of their relationship? Because the baby goes to him to help get money for to pay for the abortion right for penny what did you think of their father bigger oh it just reminded me of me and my dad and how highly I held and hold him in my mind and you know that kind of adoration that you hope most girls have for

their fathers. And, you know, I know that there's research out there that shows that women that have had strong male caregivers or fathers actually kind of have better relationships later on and they have better understanding of themselves and all of that. So I think it kind of just demonstrates that, that she's got a very, even though she's a bit shy, she's a bit unsure about herself, she's still got a strong sense of who she is. And I think that definitely comes from that relationship she's got. Whereas her sister seems a lot more unsure, outwardly not,

but her relationship with the father seems it seems a lot more tense, which is an interesting thing. I thought that was really interesting too. Why did you think that was? Yeah. So I think the dad sees himself a lot more in baby than he does in Lisa because Lisa seems a bit frivolous. She's worried about how many shoes she's brought and what she's going to wear. And whereas baby does care about monks burning themselves as her you know one of her opening lines so you know I think it's that connection but then throughout the movie you see that Lisa is very pleased that she's starting to get her dad's attention at the you know neglected baby a little bit because baby's on the outer but

yeah it is interesting to kind of see that that shift I agree it made me think about sibling relationships in general and as a parent that as the kids get older that becomes a minefield I think trying to manage that even younger I've got a two and a four year old little girls and you know trying to balance giving approval to one and then the other one that already goes, oh, well, I'm also doing this, mum, or, you know, you don't have to say that to me because I'm doing it. And you're just like, well, yes, we're not talking about you at the moment and trying to be balanced in that.

It's really hard and it just doesn't end. I'm sure my parents are still doing it. I know they are going oh I called this one last week I'll have to call this one this week and balance it all out and yeah and there are sometimes that one needs you more than the other and and vice versa I think mom gave me some great advice which was just make sure anything you do for one you do for the other because when they're older and they're looking back at photo albums if if you don't have equal amounts of photos, you'll be in trouble. Oh, I'm a second child. I hear that. And it has not made me any better with my second child.

I feel more guilty about it, I think. But you just get so busy. And with the first, it's a bit easy to have the time to take lots of photos and put them into photo books and do all of that. So, oh, I don't know how parents of three or four, like my parents, I don't know how we've got any photos of anybody past the first. Yeah, I don't know either. I just don't know how your mum did it or my mum did it, to be honest. I always repeat how your mum just doesn't remember the 80s and 90s. I love that.

She's got no knowledge of the music or the movies in the 80s and 90s. I love that. She's got no knowledge of the music or the movies in the 80s. Yeah. Just because that was the decade we were all just intense. It was just intense. Yeah. And I think sometimes it's really good to remember that. And I know we're getting off topic a bit, but it's good to remember when we're going through this time, you know, end of the world aside, just generally going through parenting little kids.

Like it's hard. It's really all-consuming and there's a reason we're tired and our brains aren't functioning maybe at, you know, 90%, 100% all the time because it's a lot and they need you physically so much, you know. Yeah. And I think also I've had a couple of comments from, you know, older parents saying also that our generation are thinking a lot more about our parenting than they ever did.

And, you know, I think we also need to pat ourselves on the back a bit because, you know, you can feel like, oh, my gosh, am I overan I over analyzing this and I'm thinking about what color I'm buying for a present for a boy and if I can wrap it in blue or pink paper or you know I think that's all I that's what I try to do but I think it also take you you've got a it's not natural yet I think because we're still so ingrained in kind of societal constructs that we've grown up in. So that also is hard and I think takes a bit of time in your parenting style as well. Yeah, completely, I know. And sometimes I wonder, are we overthinking everything too much?

I know. Yeah. I do, yeah. I don't know. Are we overthinking the overthinking? It's just like a vicious circle, isn't it? Yeah, I do and I don't. Well, I just kind of look at these teenagers coming up

and I'm just amazed at their inclusiveness and openness and ability to just adapt to things. And yes, you know, and I've just seen, you know, like Mae Whitman coming out as pansexual and just, you couldn't even fathom that that would be just go accepted so readily, even a few years ago. Whereas I think this newer generation is really doing that with such ease and really showing the way for much older generations. I think our generation is doing pretty well with it, but it is changing quite quickly. So I just, I'm so looking forward to when our kids are grown and that there just won't even be an issue for them. They just won't even, I hope, look twice at who's got what girlfriend or boyfriend or what gender or sexuality or race or all those things that have kind of been holding this construct and holding people back for so many years. I know. I'm really excited too.

The older my son gets, the more excited I am. You know, he has little friends in his class. He had two moms and that's just what it is, you know, to him. And it's so simple and great. And there's no, I don't know, unpicking of anything because to him, it's everyone's different and, you know, people's lives are the way they are and it's about love and acceptance. And I love that. I just think it's so exciting. And the older that he gets, the more I'm excited about his opinions on things and it's really awesome.

But he did say to me today, Mum, can you just stop talking about feelings all the time? And I was like, thank you for telling me how you feel so you know you know the pendulum can swing both ways Ellen the pendulum can swing both ways I did I did see Glennon Doyle post a little while ago and she said, you know, I've made a concerted effort to honour my children's feelings and to make sure that they know how to express it, but sometimes I just wish they didn't express it quite so much. Yeah, the double-edged sword. It's so easy, isn't it?

It's a totally double-edged sword I know making a rod for our own backs maybe the next generation will be a backlash to it and no one talks about anything oh look they'll have all their own problems that they have to talk about oh my parents spoke wanted me to be so open about my feelings I just wish they'd let me live my life yeah yeah totally exactly if the world's still, you know, standing by that point, so I don't think the world will be fine. Anyway, let's go back to dirty dancing. All right.

We got off chat. All right. Yes, great. Exactly. So baby's father, I really love that relationship too. He obviously really holds very highly the same values as she does, social justice and wanting to help people and the way that he just gives her the money because he trusts her so much.

And then when she calls on him to help Penny in the middle of the night after everything goes wrong, he's also just straight there, straight in and helping her. There is an interesting kind of moral code around it though as well, isn't there? At one point he says to Johnny who's standing outside the door when Penny after he's helped Penny who's responsible for this young lady you know in this in this tone that now is so interesting to think that

that was completely accepted at that time that you, someone needed to be responsible for her in that way. Yeah. I do wonder, though, because when Johnny says it's me and he gets so angry about that, whether he's implying who's made her pregnant. Oh, like who? Oh, yes, actually, you were right. Yeah, that's probably it. Yeah.

And then that's why he kind of gets so angry at Johnny and frustrated with Baby because Baby then, you know, holds his arm and shows that she's kind of quite enamoured with him. But, yeah, that was, it is an interesting, that view of the father of the men and, you know, there's that slimy waiter. So, yeah, the dad with the waiter that ends up getting Penny pregnant, Robbie, and you see that kind of that cut to them where he's got his arm around him.

And it's because of that whole class and he's going to be Ivy League and he's going to be a doctor, whereas Johnny says that will never be me. And, you know, it feels really on the outer of it. And the dad's so ready to believe that Johnny would do something like that to Penny and leave her and you know leave her to fend for herself so um I think you said it when we were talking about this previously it is it's such a story about class as well which I hadn't picked up on before you know you just kind of think oh they're the dancers and they're the guests but it's actually about upper class and lower class and how they interact

and where they overlap and what happens when that overlapping occurs. Yeah, absolutely. I know that really surprised me, that whole theme. And it kind of almost has a feel about it, doesn't it, of like forbidden love or something because Johnny's from the wrong side of the tracks, which I hadn't really kind of computed because in my head to be a dancer is someone to be so highly skilled

and it is such an incredible skill. I hadn't thought of it as being classist in any way. Yeah, I found that really interesting. Well, and I guess the update is, you know, Save the Last Dance, which is about race, where it's the black dancer with Julia Stiles and she's white and she's coming into his neighbourhood and has to go to that cool club where she gets, you know, the cool outfit.

And I guess that's how they kind of updated that from the class to race. So I wonder what will be the next hurdle that it has to be in a dance movie. Yes, exactly. What are you doing actually, before we get on to raising girls, what are you doing at the moment for your mental health? Just ask me, everyone. I wrote a list actually. I think probably start of lockdown 6.0 for Melbourne.

I thought, what can I control and what do I know works for me? So one of them was drink more water because I wasn't drinking enough water and I was feeling really tired. Another one was do something for me once a day. So that's not something with the, it's not going for a walk with the kids or something like that. It's listening to a podcast and going for a walk or doing some, I love to bake and listen to a podcast or I have a paint by numbers and listen to music and do that. So I'm trying to do that. I try to exercise once a day. And what I'm trying to keep in mind in lockdown is not beating myself up if like I wanted to go for a run today and I just didn't, couldn't muster up enough energy to go for a run. I just go, no, this is mental health exercise. So if you want to do yoga, do some yoga. If you want to do like today I took the kids and we just ran around the park and we play chasey do that um but just moving my body once a day and then the last thing is just it

sounds really twee but just trying to be really fine moments of gratefulness and gratitude and damn my husband's really good at this but real moments of going, wow, that sunrise on the leaves is looking beautiful this morning, or this coffee is tasting amazing, or just really little moments trying to catch myself throughout the day to appreciate those because the days blend a lot. And one thing actually that I picked up during early newborn days that I just love is having a shower at the end of the day. And I found in newborn days, it helped me differentiate between the day shift and the night shift because I didn't have a sleeper and she would wake every two hours.

But it just helped me kind of go, okay, now it's the night time and this is your night time routine. And I've found I've picked that up again. I have a shower. I put on my nice face cream. I get in my cosy pyjamas and it differentiates me working from home and then me being in my night time. And so I found that really helps me as well. There's something about rubbing your face with creams that is really liberating

and feels good. It's getting me through. It just is very luxurious. Yes. I've got a beautiful serum and I sometimes use the go-to face masks and that just, those little things really, it's so funny. They're so little but they really get you through.

They just make you feel like you're not dragging your feet from day to day. Exactly. And as I've got on older, I've noticed my face moves more as I massage it. And sometimes I'm really like quite concerned by how far it moves up but also it feels so good to just like move all my wrinkles and everything around. Just lovely. One of those rollers, you know, the one you see on the Instagram that all the celebrities use?

Yes. I know the word for them now, gua-sha. Gua-sha, apparently. They're like a – yeah, it's like quartz or something. Yeah. And they're cold. And they – yeah, I want to get one of those. I think I need one of those.

Lockdown 7.0. That's got to be my focus. Okay. You've got to kind of space things out, don't you? I know. I've been doing it. You've got to really, you have something to look forward to. Isn't that the definition of happiness?

Something you enjoy in the moment and something to look forward to. Yeah. And that's what I am. It's interesting because I heard a researcher talking about the difficulties of lockdown and and the pandemic and why people struggle so much with it and he said to feel you know fulfilled and human we need two things we need certainty and we need touch and and interaction with people and this pandemic takes away both and that was just so powerful to me I thought okay then that's okay to feel unmoored because we're not living with what humans need

which is to know what's coming next and to have interactions with people and feel that connection which is sad but I have been pretty amazed at people I know I know people are really really tired now but they're still you know I went and picked up my takeaway tonight and I said to the girl I was like you were so lovely on the phone you it was just so delightful to put my order through with you because she was so friendly and greeting everyone and they were under the pump and she just wanted to take your noodle order and, you know, people are still incredible. They really are. I know.

And I think about hospitality workers and takeaway workers. I mean, I think about everyone. I think about teachers and nurses and everyone. But I think often the takeaway person who's doing your coffees or making your noodles, that might be the one interaction that person has with another human for the day, you know, or it might be the one interaction that someone has with someone external to their family. And I just think that is a job of service too, right?

Absolutely. When I go and get a coffee and I go and talk to Steph at the cafe and she knows my name and my order and it's five minutes but it's just and she's always so positive and she's always so lovely and the other morning I came in and I must have looked like I think it was when we had the news that things were you know extending into lockdown one billion and she like wrote love hearts on my coffee cup and I got my coffee and she was like have a great day Claire and I was like I nearly wanted to just give her a big hug and I was like

I'll just put my elbow out and be like solidarity but you know I just think it's so lovely and it does really make a big difference so that's all of that is such great advice I think because this is really a mental health for people who are lucky enough like me to have a safe warm roof over my head it's a it's a mental health challenge yeah it is it's the resilience that is required at the moment is just it's really it's a lot and I I'm really, really feeling for teenagers. I think, I actually think that they have it one of the worst because I look back on my own teenage life and I was doing musicals and debating and drama and hanging out with my friends and going out on the weekend and, you know, all of those things that make you a whole person

and they're not getting that and they're not even getting any social interactions in school. They're going to online meetings and stuff like that, but they're not able to sit next to their mate and chat about the weekend's party or talk about their rehearsal that's coming up and what costumes they're going to get and, you know, that's the nerdy stuff I used to talk about but you know smoking behind the sheds which is what I used to do definitely yeah you were so hard for I'm sure I know you were you're a musical nerd like me I totally was I know I'm that's why I didn't even pick you up on it because I was just

nodding along like you were like, yeah. Yeah. You know, like when you got to go to music camp with the flute, which is not a joke that I just thought I did. You know, I went to writer's camp and we stayed out in the bush for two nights and got to write poetry about the eucalyptus tree. And it was just such a great time of my life. I was so free and rebellious.

But I agree with you. I totally agree with you. I think it's really hard. And they're worried about their futures, you know. Some of these kids have been in remote learning for over a year now, a year and a half. And, you know, if you're kind of thinking, I've got to do VCE next year or I've got to do this or that and I haven't been in a proper school you know in the long run for two years

and look it's it's been the right decision it's what we've had to do but I just and and teachers are so aware of the well-being and the mental health of their kids they're so concerned about and that's been their focus but it's just I think we have to keep raising that awareness and know that this is this will be an impact for a while yet um for these kids and for everyone yeah totally I think there's little mini griefs and little mini losses everywhere you look and I do agree with you about young people because I mean let's not even talk about climate change and the IPCC report. Oh, man, I need another wine for that one. Yeah, I know, exactly.

So we won't go there. But if you're a teenager, like all of that must play a factor and really at that time in your life, just like baby in Dirty Dancing, you're... See what you did there. Nice. Yes, a connection. I did that.

Yeah, brought it back in. No, but you're just exploring your world, right, and you're stepping away from your parents, which is what some of the movie is about. It's quite hilarious that I see that now. It's obviously this, like, beautiful romance. But I messaged you and was like, it's a lot about parenting. And I think I messaged you back, I think we're just old.

We're now. Yeah we're just old I know that's how you know you've really moved on I'm not identifying with baby I'm identifying with baby's father and mother oh god anyway but yeah it's that she's stepping away from her family and exploring her world and taking some risks and finding her feet and that's what she's supposed to do as a teenager. That's what's natural, right, to step away from your parents. And I agree. I think these kids are doing it really tough because you literally, like I couldn't have thought of anything worse than being forced

to be locked down with my parents just endlessly and my siblings. And your siblings. Not that I didn't love them. Yeah, and trying to all do some school learning, maybe all in the same room, all on a computer at the same time for weeks at a time and not being able to even go to a playground and hang out or, you know, like I'm

seeing a lot of kids riding their bikes around here and I'm so pleased that they're able to do that. But yeah, it's, it's real, how do you get that outlet? And, you know, for us, screen time's definitely gone up. We're both primary teachers and we try our hardest, but, you know, the days are long. And, you know, if it's rainy or that, it's really hard to kind of occupy a four- and a two-year-old without playgrounds, without playdates, without that external support that you need. Completely. I know we're in exactly the same boat. It is a real worry.

And I also think, like you were saying with all this mental health stuff, you also have to do what you can do to get through, right? I think with screen time, we're trying to be mindful of it and then we're also thinking at some point we all just need to be gentle on ourselves and do what we need to do to get through. It's visual literacy. Exactly. There's so much learning.

Sesame Street, God, it's basically vegetables in another kind of visual form, I feel, completely. My daughters learn a lot. Look, there is a very good cartoon for anyone that does want to have a visual literacy and feel good about yourself. It's called Super Why and it's a reading comprehension cartoon and they break down sounds and um putting in different sentences for words and um you know comprehension questions but it's all in the form of a wonderful cartoon so know, if you want to feel like a great parent, put on Super Why.

It's excellent. Actually, I'm writing it down right now. Really good. I think it's on Netflix or Stan. I can't remember what it's on. Love it. I'm totally there. Perfect.

Yeah, because that's the thing, right? The more kind of little strategies and tips and tricks we can put up our sleeve, especially now with child care centers closing too yeah i i heard something from my mum who's a gp which also made me feel i don't know if it made me feel better but it made me put things into perspective she was talking to one of her elderly patients and she has a lot of them. And this particular patient was saying that she'd been through wartime and that this was much worse than wartime. And my mom was kind of like, really? Okay. And she said, yes, because during wartime, there was a big coming together.

And even though it was really scary and challenging and there was a lot of you know sad things that were happening and I'm sure maybe someone who was on the front lines would not agree with this necessarily but she said that all the things that we did to get us through we came together we baked bread together we went to church together you know we had dances women went into the workforce the kids all banded together we went to church together you know we had dancers women went into the workforce the kids all banded together we all went to school and we baked and that biscuits or we you know we did all these things for the wartime effort and you're like what you said before that human touch where I think we're we're communal beings and we're designed to be in community with each other. And so when that is stripped away, I mean, at its core,

that's what the hardest part of all of this is, right, all of the little interactions that we have on a daily basis, all the things that you would normally do, go to the movies with friends, go for coffee with friends, you know, your kids would go and play with their mates. You might take a trip if you're having a bad day and, you know, your kids would go and play with their mates. You might take a trip if you're having a bad day and, you know, go and walk along the beach or go to the movie, you know, go to the shopping centre and hang out or whatever it is that you do.

So many of those things just aren't there. So I don't know if that's helpful but it did make me go. This is hard. There's a reason this feels really hard yeah look I think we we moved here pre-pandemic but we moved into our house now halfway through the pandemic and what I actually have noticed recently particularly in this last lockdown is we've actually met a lot more of our neighbours because everybody's out in their houses. They're in their street. The kids are riding their bikes up and down the street. And I don't know if we would have met that many if everybody was as busy

as we were two years ago. You know, you had your little clique of friends. You would go to the houses. You would drive there. You'd drive home, you'd go into your garage where we live and you go into your house and you don't necessarily have that interaction. Whereas, you know, the other week I met kind of two or three different neighbours that I probably wouldn't have met before. And so I think that local community has built up for us. It is harder because obviously, you know, you and I, we were going to catch up. We can't do that now because we're not in our 5Ks. I've had to cancel a lot of other friendships, meetups that I was really looking forward to.

But I think people have found other ways to keep those going. A lot of memes. Memes, I think, are keeping the world ticking around. They really are, aren't they? I saw a meme the other day that was just a big eagle. It was me doing my stupid mental health walk or something, and I just sent it to a friend. I was like, yep, perfect.

Yeah, I think I got that on about five WhatsApp groups from Sydney and Melbourne and Brisbane. So I was like, okay, great. It really resonated. I know. And that's right because it's also a visual picture. You don't have to put too much like word and thought into it. You can just send it off, right?

It really helps. I saw something that said my love language is memes. I thought, yeah, no, that is my love language. Yeah. So, you know, I'm thinking of you. I'll send you a meme. Perfect. Excellent.

Yeah, and I really, yeah, I think that's great. I think that's like indicative when they look back in the future, in 50 years, they'll look at it this time and be like, what were we really getting through? You know, in World War II, I don't know, it was like people making blankets and sending them to the soldiers. And this time it was just people sending photos of eagles to each other with really good captions.

Whatever gets you through. Yeah, faces of tired women, just like all of that stuff. Now I know the last thing we wanted to talk about other than Dirty Dancing was raising girls, right? Yes. Had a lot of time to think about this. Oh, I'm so excited. I should ask you quickly, is there anything else you're burning

to say about Dirty Dancing before we move on to our Raising Girls? No, just if you're in lockdown at the moment and you want a little escapism, go watch Dirty Dancing. It'll give you a bit of a smile. That's all I want to say. Public service announcement. Totally. Just get carried away, you know, get lifted up metaphorically,

like spiritually, just like baby was, you know, over Patrick Swayze's head, just up in the air. Just imagine you floating up there, you know, and we just all get carried away to the Catskills. God, he's very hot. Isn't he really? If for nothing else, just watch it for that. I think I appreciate the whole thing.

You know, exactly. It's just some, you know, it's good old, yeah, visuals, you know, art. It's just art Ellen it's art and it's it's getting me through because nothing you know will get you through lockdown like some high quality you know art right yeah exactly perfect antidote perfect exactly all right so on to our second topic, raising girls, I guess, really. Where would you like to begin? What are your thoughts? Oh, I actually had the thoughts about raising girls when a couple of reasons.

When I was watching Dirty Dancing and one of them was that the first thought when I saw some of the dancing was, my gosh, those girls are skinny. And that's still, it's so funny, you know, I'm 30, how old am I? 36. 36 now. And that's still something that comes first when I'm looking. It wasn't, oh, they're doing amazing dance moves. Oh, look at them go and look how talented they are. And it's, I think my whole

thing with raising girls and the thoughts I've had is how do I help them not have that be their first thought? Because I think we particularly grew up in such an era of body image, magazines, celebrity culture, more than probably any other generation. I know that, you know, we've always had magazines and that kind of thing, but I think there's been such an onslaught and particularly now this generation with TikTok and Instagram and filters, which really scare me because I just think how do you even know what you can compare against? So yeah, I think that's one big thing in raising girls that I'm really trying hard to course correct a little bit, I think. I don't know about you.

Yours is a bit littler, so I don't know if you're thinking along those lines. Oh, no, I am. No, I am. And you know why I am? Because I struggled a lot with my weight when I was a kid um hugely and that was the other thing that struck me when I watched Eddie dancing was how tiny the women were like waif like all of them particularly the two leaves I mean they're and they're gorgeous but waif like you knock them over with a feather that was so tiny and and everyone's body types

are different it's just that if that's the only kind of body type that's held up to this higher standard it can be really damaging especially if you're just designed as I am and was as a kid as a bigger kid like I was just a bigger kid and I and I still am I'm broad-shouldered I carry my weight differently to that idealised tiny waist thing. I've never really had a waist. And I didn't realise how much of a thing that was until I started this show and started thinking about all the Disney shows and the stuff we watched.

The tiny waist thing, which is in this movie, is huge. It's a huge message through Disney films and still is in Frozen and all the other ones that to be a beautiful woman, even if you're voluptuous, you have a tiny waist, you know, in all of them, even in like Hercules, like the cartoon Hercules, and ostensibly those characters are quite, are bigger, the women are, you you know bustier and have hips but they've still got that tiny waist and I've carried that with me and I and it's only as

a 35 year old woman I've started to be able to really let it go I think maybe having two kids um and also just understanding that my body could never look like that. The only time I think I had that kind of waist was when I was completely utterly miserable and I was really underweight, you know. Yeah. And so and isn't that ridiculous because society then at that time kind of praised me for that.

When I got to this tiny weight you get you do get this kind of feedback from people that oh you don't you look wonderful don't you look great aren't you fabulous good on you congratulations um even losing the baby weight this time was a lot harder and I think I did get that messaging of like well done you, like you fit back into your previous clothes, which I wanted to because I value my health and exercise. I love my body, like being strong and fit. I really want to push back on the idea that we all have to be waif-like, you know, and I can see in my daughter,

she's like me, she food loves food like the best oh it's the best it is me too I am Dolly Alderton it is isn't it and my daughter is just there with me in all of it all like she ate through a like a lemon the other day just bit through the skin and I was like I'm with you mate and she looked at me it was like this is great and I was like yes it's very acidic but you're loving it and I love it for you you know and like she doesn't like spicy food she's one she will she tried our curries and all kinds of things she's into it into all the foods fingering trying it all textures everything loves it and I just I want her to keep that

you know because I have that and I don't want her to ever have a relationship with food that's toxic and you know I agree and what I've done just a bit of a self-check for myself is consciously follow people on Instagram. I'm a real Instagram stalker. I barely ever post, but I'm on there a lot because I really like it. But there's two particular posters that I really like. One is Katie Storino. I don't know if you followed her. And another one is Ashley Graham, the supermodel.

And they're both large women. They're beautiful, but they just own it. And it's just so delightful to see them just different body shapes coming up on your feed all the time. And just reminding you that if your body can do, then it's doing its good job. That's what it's about. And there's another one I follow, which is Beauty Redefined. And it's these two PhD women who just constantly post different ideas for how you can talk to your girls, particularly, about their body. And one of their big things is that they said that your body is an instrument, not an ornament. And when you're talking to your girls about getting dressed, and I do this now with my four-year-old, and she comes up to me, she goes, do I look beautiful, mummy? And of course, I want to say yes. And I still don't know whether I should or not because I overthink things.

But what I say is, well, how do you feel? And she goes, oh, good. I say is well how do you feel and she goes oh good I said can you do stuff can you jump can you run can you do a somersault and she does all those things and she goes yes I can like and it's great so you know it's not about if it's a dress or pants it's about what can your do your clothes allow you to do stuff and use your body as an instrument, not as an ornament. And I just love that philosophy. So I've really gripped onto that when I'm unsure because it's a day-by-day thing, this parenting caper. God, it really is, isn't it? It totally is.

It's every day. Every day, Alice. It's not occasionally. It's every bloody day. And, you know, like two-year-old is different to four-year-old problems and I know four-year-old problems will be different to six-year-old problems and they just keep changing the rules. I know, I know.

And they do sort of, I think, have a really great way of reflecting all the things that you struggle with yourself and bringing your own childhood right up close, I think, in a beautiful way too. And I think there's a lot of room in there for your own self-reflection and growth and all of that stuff if you're in the mindset for it. But it is challenging. And I do think the messaging around this is really tricky and I hadn't thought about that because obviously our little person isn't there yet sort of talking and I wonder because I'm sure I say to her she's beautiful I mean I say to my son too but I don't want her to think that that's her worth in the world yeah but I still also really enjoy

color and I enjoy fabrics and I enjoy makeup and I enjoy brushing my hair and doing all those things that I've noticed for her she's very sensory and she loves that whereas my son could not care if I brushed his hair ever like he just that's just not him and it's not necessarily because he's a boy it's just that's his personality he's just not as into it yeah but what are because my girls have started being interested not that I wear makeup that much anymore but when I do put it on they're very curious they want to try it and the way I've kind of thought of it because I thought oh no you don't want them to be worried about makeup is I instead try to have the language around it and say, you know, when they say, what's that?

I say, oh, this is makeup. I really like to play with the colours. Do you want to give it a try? You know, I like kind of trying out different things rather than the talk is, oh, I don't like this and I'm trying to make my cheekbones, you know, bigger or I'm trying to make my lips bigger or like there's some – it's to cover up deficits, that it's more that I enjoy it. And I say it and I choose to wear makeup and sometimes I choose not to wear makeup

so that they're not saying that all women have to wear makeup all the time to cover up your deficits because I think that's the negative. I love makeup. I love playing with makeup. I don't want them not to have that um if they choose so but I also want them to know it's a choice and if they don't want to that's fine too if they don't want to shave their legs that's fine if that's what you like go do it be you as long as you're not hurting anyone be you who cares exactly and look to me I really think the most beautiful women that I

can think of and I think Glennon Doyle spoke about this in her podcast and we can do hard things are the women when you see them in the moment doing the thing that they they love that they're great at that they feel power in when they, like there's a great show Fleabag and in Fleabag there's this, I just love that show. I just love that show so much. I know. And in the second season there's this brilliant scene where the lead character Fleabag is talking

to an older woman who's just won an award and she's gay and they're sitting in this cocktail bar and there's this kind of beautiful conversation they have and that woman is just so full of herself but not in a way that's I don't mean that in terms of arrogance I mean in a way that is just like she knows her own boundaries she knows who she is she knows what she's good at she knows her own boundaries. She knows who she is. She knows what she's good at. She knows what she will and won't do. And she's been through stuff and she's let it teach her. And that's, I think, to me, when you're walking in that way

and you've taken care of yourself, and that's how I've started to think about talking to my son and my daughter about it, about all of this beauty stuff is that I want to take pride in my appearance and take care of my body and myself for myself and to show respect to the people around me. But it's not about, you're right, covering up deficits. It's just about being respectful to myself and trying to think about what it is that I do what what do I wear that is showing who I am and I think you can see that and if showing who if showing who you are is really full-on glittery you know skirts and dresses with like low-cut tops and like, I don't know, massive sky-high heels, go for it.

If it is, like me, high-waisted pants and runners, go for it, you know. And I think that's what I've had to reconcile myself because my four-year-old loves a tulle, loves a glittery skirt. Give her a princess crown crown she is yours forever and you know we've tried really hard to be very gender neutral and you know we could wear the blue or you could wear the green or you could wear this and no she's got none of it and but that's okay because that's what she loves and as long as she can do all the things she wants to do as long as you know I try really hard not to say you know she'll put on a very fancy party dress and we'll go play in the mud. And I'll say, that's okay,

we'll just wash it. Like, that's fine. Wear that dress. Everything can get washed and, you know, she'll wear it to kinder and it'll get trashed. And that's, you know, I think it's all in those subconscious things that we do like, oh, oh you're wearing your pretty dress so you can't do that activity that you really love that's what that's what I really I'm trying to kind of beat against a little bit that clothes shouldn't stop you from doing anything and if they are they're the wrong clothes I think yes I think that's so wise because I have seen that too and I've heard that messaging or watched it being said to little girls who are wearing tights with these beautiful pinafores, don't go in the mud, don't go in that, oh, you can't wear that,

oh, look at you sliding around, keep your dress down. That's actually something that does bother me still, school uniforms. Even at my son's school, the girls all still wear summer dresses, the boys all wear shorts and it bugs me because what is what happens then forever girls are pulling their dresses down while they're on the monkey bars you know and I think yeah it shouldn't stop you from doing what you want to do and like and we should and the you know let's put shorts under the dress if you want to address great put some shorts on dress. If you want a dress, great. Put some shorts on under there so you can swing upside,

or bloomers that we used to wear, so you can swing upside down on the monkey bars. I haven't had bloomers in 20 years. I'm like, that's never been me. I know. It's so funny, right? But that's the thing because I did hear a mum say, oh, stop being, you know, stop hanging upside down, be more ladylike. And I'm going to take that notion and put it in the bin because I think hang

upside down as much as you want, you know. And if you want to do it wearing a dress, cool, maybe put balloons on. But, you know, like that's cool. I think you're right. It's about function too. Is there anything else? So that's the beauty and body stuff which is like which is full on. Oh, my gosh.

We could be here for days. We could be here for days, right? I could talk about that forever because it's an ongoing thing that I have in my own head as well. Don't even get me started on the fact that, you know, the average woman in Australia is a size 14 to 16 and you go into a store still and that's seen as an extra large and there's probably not any other sizes in there.

It is changing a little bit, I think, but it's not changing anywhere near as fast as it should. Aside from that, something else that I found challenging raising girls is the pronoun thing. Have you found that in a lot of kids' books and things? Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. Mouse?

Yeah. I had, I came down so furious last night because I said to my husband, every animal in this book is a boy. And he was like okay so uh hun i change all the pronouns all the time because yeah last night every animal was a he and i just thought why it's so unnecessary and i think i don't know if i've heard you um talk about this before we've spoken about this before but i've also i love the faraway tree and the wishing chair. And, you know, that's my childhood.

We've got the old books with the beautiful drawings and everything. But, you know, Joe, the boy, has the right answer for everything and always gets to go on the first adventure and tells all the girls to wait and I'll go check out the dangerous things. And the girls always have to, like, make the bed for the visitors while Jo carries the bags so I regularly change character names as well as pronouns but then you kind of get a few paragraphs in and and you know you've got to remember what you've said it gets really hard i'm down there too especially when you get that idea was it bessie or was it fanny or was it joe yeah exactly i get really and my son would pull me up on that and be like but she was the one driving the plane and i'm like oh yeah you're right oh god it's so confusing

it's a real minefield you know it is but it's all it's all those subconscious things that are telling girls and boys because boys love these stories too that this is what this gender can do and is good at and this is what this gender can do and is good at and you know we once had an old principal that even said they had boy jobs in their family and girl jobs in their family. And he was as blatant as that. And Dan and I are very equal and we really share everything. And we went, what? You know, that it's still thought of like that in very many places for ridiculous things like lawn mowing.

Like that doesn't have a gender assigned to it, but it has become gendered. It has, yeah, and it's interesting, isn't it, because it still definitely is and there's a real assumption. Like my husband rang me a few months ago because I organised the tool shed and it's not very organised. That did not surprise me. Look, and I don't use it that often, but it's like all my gardening

equipment is in there. I bought the lawnmower, all the things that we need, all the tools kind of stuff is in the garden shed and I organised the garden shed to stuff is in the garden shed and I organized the garden shed to be there in the first place and James messaged me because he promised he was going to mow the lawn and he messaged me and was like where's the lawnmower and I said in the garden shed and he said where's the garden shed one for feminism yeah correct exactly i was like i will keep that story in reason later and look and we're the same we're we're equal i mean and there is still lots of things that like

he will do or that i will do and sometimes they're gendered roles and sometimes they're not you know i don't love mowing the lawn i would prefer not not to, but I do it and Dan does it. I'm sure he doesn't love mowing the lawn on a Sunday afternoon either. He would rather be playing basketball or doing something else fun. But I think it's that when it's always one gender that becomes, you know, oh, well, that's what they're good at. And then I remember reading Annabelle Crabbe and she was talking about it becomes self-fulfilling then because she's the good present rapper in her family. And, you know, if you, and her argument too is a little bit that

that also saves us time, that if you have someone specialising in an area, you know, someone's the present rapper, someone's the present buyer, but not putting a gender on it. It's just, okay, well, I enjoy that. I don't mind doing that role. I'll do it, whether you're a male or a female or same-sex or whatever it is. So, I think that's also an interesting aspect to it. Oh, it's so complex. It is, isn't it? And I know, and we could talk about it forever. I think maybe the important thing is, and I was speaking to a psychologist, Carly McGowan in our episode, and she just said that the best thing you can do is just keep the communication lines open, you know, and when you don't get it right and you have that conversation and you think, oh, God, I really said the wrong thing there. I really didn't do the right thing there.

Or, you know, James in our house takes out the bins. That's one of his jobs and I literally never do it. But we decided to divvy up some things that I just don't ever think about. I have no idea when recycling is. I don't know. He does all of that. And that is probably very gendered but also I'm very happy with that and I don't have to He does all of that. And that is probably very gendered, but also I'm very happy with that. And I don't have to take the things out.

You know? You're a guilty feminist. I'm a feminist. I am. I don't want to take the things out. Correct. And I'll take the rubbish out occasionally, but that's his, like he will do it and he does it well.

He folds all the cardboard, does all the things. And I think that, you know, it's the same with parenting, right, with all of this stuff, raising girls and all the things. It's just having that open dialogue. And, I mean, to bring it back to Dirty Dancing, that's what happened. There was a miscommunication between baby's father and baby about, you know, the difficulties with Penny's baby and all of that stuff. And so he saw her in one way and once they sorted out their communication

issues, he realised he'd had it wrong. So we just have to keep talking to our kids, don't we, at Nautium? And keep watching Dirty Dancing to get parenting tips. Is that what I'm hearing? Correct. Yes, that is exactly what you're hearing and that is what I'm hearing? Correct. Yes, that is exactly what you were hearing, and that is what I'm recommending.

We all need to go and watch Dirty Dancing again. I might do that after this. I might go get myself another cocktail and just watch Patrick Swayze. Heavenly. Correct. Exactly. Oh, my goodness oh gosh well thank you so much Ellen for doing this it's been really fun it's been lovely during lockdown to watch dirty dancing and have thoughts about raising girls I've loved it yeah it's I know it's I think that's what you're gonna do right just do some things like that to keep your mind off things and get you through.

Yes. And can I recommend if anybody is raising girls at the moment that the Steve Bidoff book, Raising Girls, he's also done one, Raising Boys, is fantastic at really practical ways to think about all of these kinds of things. What toys and how do we choose toys and how do you talk to them and all of that. So it's a really helpful, helpful, practical book.

It totally is. It's so interesting you said that because I had that written down too. Got it right here in front of me. Yeah, absolutely. I loved actually, while you brought that up, Bidoff, I love how he has these five stages. He talks through security, exploration, learning to get along with others and finding one's passion or spark. Yes.

I know. I just read that passion or spark one the other day and he was talking about how to embrace that spark. Girls, and I guess boys too, need three things. They need their parents to support them, their school community to support them, and they need time to kind of embrace that spark. And I just thought that's such a great little key for parents to keep in mind that, you know, our eldest daughter's looking like she's loving arts and crafts and painting and that kind of thing and all those different factors that might be able to kind of spark that for her.

I thought that was so helpful. Absolutely. I thought that was so helpful too. It's such a great way of framing that idea of what you are doing and what you can do with your body, right? Yeah. Finding that passion or spark rather than being a bauble or decorative, I guess. And the other part I actually loved was the preparing for the freedom

and responsibilities of adulthood as well. And this, I think, just translates to good parenting for boys and girls and kids who are non-binary, whatever gender they sort of affiliate with. And I think I just love that idea that we're, and I think Michelle Obama said it too in her memoir that she's raising her kids to be adults one day and be completely independent from her and so I I sometimes say that to my little people too you know that gives you that kind of reassurance that

you might not be loving what I'm trying to get you to do at the moment, but everything I'm doing is sort of teaching you to be autonomous and independent, you know. Yeah. It's the long game and that's the hard thing sometimes as a parent. It's easy and not to say that we don't ever do it, but it's easy to give in to the tantrums and to the yes, one more lolly or yes, you know, you can watch TV for 10 hours or whatever it is because it's easier at the moment. But it's thinking that long game, who are the people we

want to raise? Who are the teenagers when they really can have a choice whether they listen to me or not because they can walk out the door and go to their girlfriend's or boyfriend's house or best friend's house or whatever. How do we kind of create the circumstances now so that we have a relationship then to build that you know respect on um but it's really tiring in a pandemic to keep thinking of the long game at times it's really hard I know that's and that's the thing. I'm just really tired, Ellen. I know.

It's hard. I know. I know. One foot in front of the other. Yeah. I think that's great advice for anyone listening too, right? You just one foot in front of the other and, you know, we'll get through. Yeah, and I think the little kindnesses,

what you were saying about your coffee maker and my noodle box person today, those things have resonated with us. So I think if we can then send little kindnesses out to people, you don't know how much that's going to change someone's day because there's a lot of crappy stuff going on I think little kindnesses get people through there is yeah I think that's so true that's I think that's what we need to rely on at the moment right and that extra little layer of compassion for people even the person that I don't know pushes in front of you somewhere or not that I'm driving anywhere at the moment, but, you know, like with that little bit of road rage or that person who seems stressed

or isn't wearing their mask properly or whatever it is, I think we've all just got to kind of have that feeling of empathy that we don't know what they're going through. It was even actually translated to me into, you know, the protests that are happening because obviously with our strict lockdown, there's a lot of protesting going on. And I absolutely agree we should be in lockdown. And I do think obviously the protests are putting at risk a lot of people's health and overall the health of our state. But I also on the flip side think I'm I have the ability to feel safe and my income hasn't been affected I can still work I have a family around me I have a support network so I can sit in my

warm comfortable house and and stay in lockdown and do what I need to do. But there are so many people who aren't in that situation. And, you know, where would I be if like, I know I was hearing someone the other day, just, you know, rallying against everybody and yelling about all the people who are protesting. And, and I get that too, because it's frustrating. But I also think, you know, you know, people are doing it really, really, really tough. And if you've got no income and no ability to work, I mean, and you've got a family to care for, yeah,

there's a lot of people in a lot of difficult situations, I think. Yeah. And we're only going to come out of this by coming together because if we all pull apart, it's just not going to work. So go get vaccinated, everyone. Yes, exactly. That's the only road through, right, is for us all to get vaccinated. I've had my first one and I'm having my second one in September.

Yeah. Yeah, we just got to do it. We got to keep working through it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. All right. Thanks, Ellen. We got to keep working through it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. All right.

Thanks, Ellen. Thank you. That was so lovely. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tondi, and this week with my wonderful friend, Ellen Steele. Isn't she awesome? All right. If you loved this episode, I would so love you to scroll back in the feed

and listen to some others and share them with a friend. You can subscribe, rate and review right on your phone right now. Just an app would just do me the biggest favor. You can find me at Claire20 on Instagram. And I'm also on a website called claire20.com and a podcast on Thursdays called Suggestible with my husband, Manjames, where we argue and recommend each other things. This week is our Halloween special, and James is making me watch spooky things, and I hate watching spooky things. So that should be a really good fun time.

That comes out every Thursday, as I said. This has been Taunts, which comes out every Tuesday. Thank you, as always, to Royal Collings for editing this week's episode, and I will talk to you soon. Bye.