TONTS. - Finding Your Purpose with Alice Zaslavksy

Episode Date: September 21, 2021

Were you a weird kid? Did you love things almost too much? Ask too many questions? Feel like a fish out of water at school? Were you lonely or awkward or felt out of place in your own skin? Well my guest today is an example of what happens when you let all of that pour out, follow your curiosities and compulsions. When you give yourself permission to be fully who you were meant to be. I have a real treat for you today. This episode of Tonts is a wide reaching lovely conversation with the force of nature that is Alice Zaslavsky or Alice in Frames as she is known around the traps. Alice is a former teacher who is also a cook, writer, broadcaster and speaker who is also deeply passionate about vegetables. She is a polymath (someone who collects knowledge like a bower bird), a vegelante and just an all round creative wonder who loves nothing more than to inspire others to learn about food and where it comes from. I have loved Alice’s writing and her recipes for years and have always wanted to sit down with her and ask her about all the things she makes and why she does what she does. Alice is also a mum to a little human called Hazel and the story of her Jewish family’s immigration from Georgia to Australia is one of heartbreak and triumph and grit. It was a delight to sit down on a sunny afternoon in lockdown and discover a kindred spirit. The weird, nerdy kid that lives inside my head and my heart was full to the brim with joy for this vegetable loving woman. Her message is clear be you and don’t let anyone tell you differently and maybe some magic things will happen. Give yourself permission. Lean into what you love. And for goodness sake eat your vegetables.For more from Alice head to www.aliceinframes.com or follow her on instagram @aliceinframes Head here to purchase her vegtastic tome In Praise of VegSubscribe here for – tontsnewsletterYou can find me on instagram @clairetonti or at www.clairetonti.comYou can email me with suggestions for episode topics and guests to [e-mail]. Feel free to leave me a voice memo to be included in the show.A big thank you to this wonderful team:Editing - RAWCollingsTheme Music - Avocado JunkieGraphic Design - Emma HackettPhotography - Anna RobinsonStyling - Hilary Holmes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, Claire Tonti here. Welcome to Tonts, a podcast about feeling all of it. Were you a weird kid? Did you love things a bit too much? Ask too many questions? Feel like a fish out of water at school? Were you lonely or awkward or felt out of place in your own skin? Well, that was me. I've always felt like I was too much, too curious. Cue the eye rolls when I asked another question in class. Does she really need to have her hand up again? We all want to go and eat our lunch. Too big when it came to boys and being asked out on dates.

Too loud, too emotional, too weird, too much, too many words, too different, too many things to make and do and say and be. Well, my guest today is an example of what happens when you let that all pour out. Don't hide your light and are unafraid to give yourself permission to be fully who you were meant to be. This episode of Taunts is a wide-reaching, lovely conversation with the force of nature that is Alice Dazlovsky, or Alice in Frames as she is known around the traps. Alice is a former teacher who is also a cook, a writer, a broadcaster, and a speaker, who is also deeply passionate about vegetables. She is a vigilante and just an all-round creative wonder who loves nothing more than to inspire others to learn about food and where it comes

from. You might recognize her from MasterChef or from the ABC where she regularly presents. You might have even seen her interviewing Nigella Lawson among many other people in the food industry, particularly in Australia. I have loved Alice's writing and her recipes for years and have always wanted to sit down with her and ask about all the things she makes and why she does what she does. Alice is also a mum to a little human called Hazel and the story of her Jewish family's immigration from Georgia to Australia is one of triumph and heartbreak and grit. It was a delight to sit down on a sunny afternoon in lockdown and discover a kindred spirit. The weird nerdy kid that lives inside my

head and my heart was full to the brim with joy for this vegetable loving woman and what she creates. Her message is clear. Be you and don't let anyone tell you differently. And maybe some magic things will happen. Give yourself permission, lean into what you love and for goodness sake, eat your vegetables. Here she is, Alice in frames. I have been a massive fan of yours for a long time. And I used to be a primary school teacher as well. So I know the ropes about, you know, transitioning and doing all of that kind of thing. And I wanted to just start by asking you about what you eat and when.

So I'm a big food person. What do you eat when you're having like a really blah day? Like a can't be bothered. the sky's really gloomy, you're just feeling gross? What would you eat? I would eat a big bowl of toasted sunflower seeds with the shell on and I would, it's meditative for me to just like, like a bird. And I don't just do it on gloomy days because I've actually got a,

I don't know if you can see the calluses on my fingers, but I've got calluses from picking the seeds. It's just it takes me back. My grandpa taught me how to toast the seeds and it's a very Georgian thing to eat sunflower seeds. So I'm sure lots of people would say chocolate or, you know, indulgent things, but that to me is like great, good time. That'll get you going. That'll get good time. That'll get you going.

That'll get me going. That'll get you going every time. Yeah. And if I'm gloomy, I'm probably reading. So I'll be like book in front, seeds, delish. Just like yum, yum, yum. What would you eat when there is something to be celebrated? When you just something amazing happened, you've launched a book, I don't know, whatever, something to be celebrated.

We'd go out. We'd go to one of our favourite restaurants in town and we would celebrate. There was one restaurant in particular that sadly closed, but that's where we have celebrated so many occasions for the family, Lau's Family Kitchen in St Kilda, the most amazing Cantonese. They closed sort of late, so mid last year and I miss them very much. So maybe what I still make, I still make Lao's veg

to remember what that was like. Gilbert took me into the kitchen and showed me how they make their famous Lao's veg. So now, yeah, that's my celebratory marker. Celebratory. Yeah. So did they close because of the pandemic? No. So it. Celebratory. Yeah. So did they close because of the pandemic? No.

So it was just timing. I think Gilbert is sort of in his late 70s and the lease was up and they just decided, you know what, let's call it. And I'm still in touch with the fam, so they're doing well. Yeah. That's really good. Something that comes across with your work is your huge heart and your huge ability to bring so many foodies together

in so many different ways. Where does that come from? I've just always been a people person and it probably does come from some level of sublimation of like feeling like an outsider at some point in my life and so I overcompensate now by bringing everybody in with me. But I think it's definitely one of my superpowers to make friends, collect interesting people and introduce them to

each other as well because I think that's probably one of the ways that I, my friend John would describe it as adding value. It's the way that I add value to people's lives is by introducing them to each other, valuable people to each other. Why did you feel like an outsider? I, when I was little, we were in Georgia and my, you know, I was little, like slight of frame. And I think there was a level of internalising of the antisemitism within the country and within the Soviet Union that my parents definitely experienced as part of the reason why we left. But also when we came to Australia, I didn't speak the language. So I went into primary school with a bowl cut and, you know, a thick Russian accent. And really, it was a very steep learning curve. And it didn't take me long. Like,

I think I've always really been an extrovert and always wanted to, you know, make friends, but I definitely found those first few years hard. What was so hard in that transition from a cultural perspective? Yeah, it was the culture. It was a total culture shock. I think because we always, you know, in Georgia there's a real sense of hospitality and everybody being welcomed to the table. And my parents brought that with them here and they

still, they're academics and they would still host parties, you know, barbecues for all of their students from all over the world, Georgian hospitality. But I think the Australian, especially in the nineties, you know know there is kind of a I wouldn't call it I would call it a an othering particularly if they hear an accent or if you seem different and because we came here with very little you know I was wearing hand-me-downs I just never I was just never very cool like I wasn't cool at school school but I was very cool at Russian school so that made me feel better. Like at Russian school and at my rhythmic gymnastics classes, I was extremely cool, like queen bee cool.

But at school I was like geeky, bookish, awkward. I love it. Awkward people are the best. Never peak in high school. I think that gave me the biggest favour in my life because if I was cool at school then I would be ruining, you know, growing up. But I love it. I look back and I'm just like, thank you.

Thank you for pushing me. Yeah, you know. I wore glasses from grade five. I remember this the other day and it really encapsulates a boy said to me, it would have been year 10, and he said, Alice, you would be so much hotter if you weren't so annoying. Isn't that such a year 10 thing? And it's just like, and I really, that cut me up.

And now it's just like, joke's on you. You can't do an expression on a podcast, but it's just like, oh. Yeah. Why did he say you were annoying, do think where was the what was the root of that I think the annoyingness um from a school perspective is you know if you're challenging the norms or if you're poking your head above um or if you're just different or unusual or have different ideas and I was definitely not the quietest you know I was never a shy retiring wallflower yeah I was queen bee on quietest, you know. I was never a shy, retiring wallflower, you know. I was Queen Bee on Sundays so why should I not be that?

Literally, I was the same person in both schools but in one school it was like, oh, and in the other school it was like, no. I found my diaries. I had journals from like we had a club after school on Tuesdays and Thursdays called the Discovery Club and it was, I used to do like science experiments. And my journals were so angsty. They were so like, why? And it's like, oh man, if I could just go back and, you know,

what would I change? What would I say? I just say it now. I just say it to any kid that I talk to now and just say like, what makes you different and annoying is actually what will make you stand out and be your best self and shine. Is that your curiosity and enthusiasm and extroversion? Yes.

Is that what it was that made you the queen bee? Probably. On the weekend? Yeah, on the week, on Sundays. But, yeah, my enthusiasm and exuberance was definitely seen as something that was annoying and there was a quota. And actually, I think it's actually about finding your tribe because I don't think that my tribe was at my day school.

And I know that from even when I was on MasterChef because they cast you to be different to everybody else. And I got that same feeling of being back at school and like, why am I so different? And do I need to dim my light because it's annoying for other people? And it's just like, no, actually, because I've weeded out people in my day-to-day life that make me feel that way. But it's just now I'm thrust in this house with you for six months. Yeah, that would have been so tricky. Oh, yeah.

Did you find your feet eventually or you just were determinately Alice and kept going? I think, no, I think there was a point at which a producer pulled me aside and said, hey, listen, you are like whatever's going on, you need to just be you, like be the full expression of you because that's why you've been cast. And then in that challenge, I just smashed the shiitake out of the next kind of group challenge, which was essentially just me holding

the attention of a room for hours because the food wasn't coming. But I think if I hadn't had that person pull me aside and tell me that, I was definitely feeling like I was going back into my, you know, teenage self-doubt. Awkward self. Awkward self, yes. So, you know, and I actually think that the experience has been really, has been very life-affirming in the sense that it reminded me that letting myself give other people the opportunity to tell me what I am or how valuable I am or how annoying I am or any of those things whatever label they want to put on me um I love this actually it was a quote from Kylie

on RuPaul's Drag Race um all stars six she said she said um it's not what they call you it's what you answer to and I think that is like the amount of times that I wish someone had told me that over the years. But now that I know it, it's just like, no, no tweet, no aside, no snarky side eye is going to dim my light ever again. Do you think that has something to do with being a girl, being a woman and being loud? Oh, 100%. Yes, definitely. I think that it's definitely a gender thing. In fact, I was just talking to some Year 12 girls this morning, which I occasionally do.

I did like a little Zoom sesh for them and I just said to them, we don't put ourselves forward enough and we apologise for our presence just, you know, if not out loud, just in some of the self-talk. But actually, and I've done work with a breath coach to work my way through it, and one of the things that we worked on is that she taught me to think about the fact that it's not just me on stage, it's actually all the people that back me, you know, and they're all behind me.

And that's sometimes, depending on how big the performance is and how much I need to set my mind, you know, straight, how many butterflies are flying about in my tummy, I'll just tell myself that and it's like whoosh. And it's a different resonance that you find in your voice when you're coming from that place of self-confidence and and you know the awareness of the people backing you is there is there a way you talk to yourself in that moment you know when you're going to do something big and scary like yes um it's another so it was years and years ago I was hosting the opening media night

for Gourmet Escape and it was up on stage with me. It was Dominic Crenn who was the top female chef in the world at the time, Nigella Lawson, Rick Stein, and I was going to host the panel. And a friend of mine, Amanda, said, you, because she said, are you nervous? And I said, yeah, you know, it's not nerves. It's just like there's like a, you know, are you nervous? And I said, yeah, you know, it's not nerves. It's just like there's like a like, you know, you harness it and you pull it out as positive energy.

But I said, yeah, you know, I'm definitely feeling a little bit out of my depth. And she said, you were born for this. This is what you do. And I tell myself that. I'm like, this is my jam. There is actually nobody that can do what I do in the way that I do it. So I'm going to, gonna you know dial it up and the more that I do it um I remember one time in particular

when I walked out so I was hosting Nigella at Hamer Hall so like two and a half thousand people right I was eight months pregnant so and we'd done the first half and then there was intermission and then we came back out. She had just eaten my hummus with carrot sticks in the intermission and said it was delicious. And I know, I know. And I walked out and, and she was walking up behind me and I felt really at home. Like I felt like I was going to do it, like we were going to do a pas de deux on stage and it really just felt like I was floating, she was floating and there was nothing, there was no self-doubt whatsoever.

And I don't know necessarily what I was telling myself or what I was thinking but it just felt very comfortable and it helps that Hamer Hall was also the place where we used to perform every year for the, you know, for some concerts within the community. So, you know, I knew the backstage, I knew that stage, I knew the feeling of being on those boards and it was like I was here to help her. I guess that kind of is part of the reason that I'm comfortable doing it because it's not about me, it's about bringing out the best in who I'm hosting most of the time.

Is it scary to meet someone like Nigella who you would really respect and admire, or is it just energizing? It depends on the person. It depends on the person and their own energy. So it's like what they're projecting. And most of my experience has been that people at that level are the nicest, humblest, most grateful sort of, you know, people to meet you and for you to be normal with them because it's really awkward when somebody meets you and they're sort of like, oh, my God, hi. Yeah, yeah.

And, hey, I can empathise because that's happened to me a few times but not with food people. It happens to me with other kind of celebrity type people that I meet when I haven't, you know, been through my little mindset exercise, which I, you just have to remind yourself, you know, when you go to a writer's festival, you'll meet the top authors in the world. And they're all such interesting, fun people, because if they weren't, they wouldn't be writing these amazing books. So it's exactly the same. If someone's at the top of their game, they've done something. They're not just like

famous for the sake of being famous. And the fame is a by-product of that talent that they have. So it's about acknowledging that you recognize that they're very good at what they do, but also what else, you know, what are they interested in? The best thing to do is actually to talk to their partner because their partner's off to the side like, you know. Just hanging out. Just hanging out. And if they've chosen that person, that person is probably going to be just as interesting, if not more so, and grateful that you've,

you know, taken the time to get to know them as well. Yeah, and then you come back in and now that you're in with the person, with the partner, then you're like, oh, okay, so this is someone that I could meet on that level instead of like a surface level. Yeah, like a sort of band sort of relationship and then make them feel uncomfortable and all of those things. Well.

Yeah, correct. What do you believe about energy and that kind of timing and serendipity kind of stuff what do you think i believe claire that's what i'm asking you i can already tell you're one of my people i can tell but i'm very woo woo very like beyond woo woo um and i'm all about it yeah so actually um my um i was at the abc studios and there were like a bunch of books available and you can just pick like you know because they're kind of the off-cut books that no one's chosen and i found the one that's like biopsychic um and i definitely i believe in energy i believe in manifestation

and spirit and karma um and i just believe in putting out positive vibes and you get what you, you know, you get in what you put out big time. Yeah. Do you mean that in terms of the work, like the work, the amount of work you do, how hard you work or is that, or is it both? Is it also sort of emotional energy and what you give you then receive? That and it's the intention behind it. So you can't lead with ego.

Even if it's a project where you're putting your whole heart into it and you know that you're the best at it, you have to come from a place of wanting to share something and bring goodness into the world, right? You can't just be like, look how good I am. It's more like, look how good this is. Like let's enjoy it together. Yeah. And I think that, and I think there's a different attachment to that as well.

So, you know, in terms of because it's the project that you're proud of, you don't take it as personally if it's not as successful as you think, or you, by the same token, if it's more successful than you expected, you don't let it go to your head and, you know, knock you off course. Have there been times where you've been knocked off course? Oh, yeah, plenty. A couple of times in particular, when I was approached to create Phenomenon, which is the digital toolkit for teachers, which you would know being a former primary school teacher, I was the food editor at, you lifestyle, glossy. I had a really clear career

trajectory within the kind of restaurant hospo world. I'd built up a lot of gravitas, I suppose, and I could see a really clear path. But when that came my way, because that had been my mission from the get-go before MasterChef, I thought, oh, this is it. This is what spirit is telling me I'm supposed to do. So I'm going to get rid of all the distraction. I'm going to say no to everything. I'm going to leave my role as food editor, hand it off to my good friend, Sophia. And I'm just going to focus on Phenomenon. And I did that for 18 months. And when the project launched, like, and I was, you know, we, it really took everything. When I say we, my husband, Nick, who was an osteo,

we just spent a bunch of dosh on building up his clinic. He resigned, like retired his mitts and became a project manager, a phenomenon. So everything went into this project and then we launched it. And because it's government and industry funded, we can't put any money into promoting it. And so it was like crickets, crickets. And because it was like such a, it was our baby,

it was our firstborn and we were devastated and I really, we had to both do a lot of work and soul searching to say like, why is this happening? Like why does this hurt so much and what can I do to make this feel less bad because it felt really shitty um but I think over time the thing that's kind of mitigated the shittiness is we've continued to work on phenomenon but it taught me never to put all of my eggs in the same basket and actually I had a fantastic conversation with a grower um a lettuce grower who who said, Alice,

why are you doing like, why are you doing all this backroom stuff? Like, why do you think you are going to impact more people and affect more change doing what it is that you were born to do, which is front of camera and, you know, within that kind of sphere and helping lead the team, but not necessarily being in the hole. So after that, I've then, you know, that was very helpful for me because it's made it clearer how I can continue to agitate and where. But it was, you know, I see everything as a learning, like even our biggest failures. At one point we thought we'd have to sell our flat to finish the

project because it was like oh my god I know it was and my mom was like don't do that I'm so glad I listened to her no and then what you and I love how you're like it just felt a bit shitty that it didn't go oh my god it was bad so but but I think also it kind of we also had to ask ourselves what is the universe telling us? And I think part of the reason why we had Hazel is because we finished this project, which was our baby, and we put it out into the world and we realised actually it's not our baby at all.

It's like and no one sees it. And so we were like, well, we might as well just have a baby. So, you know, next minute we've got one and she's ours and she's great. She's a delight. That's good. You can tell her when she's older that the reason that she came into the world was because the other baby didn't quite launch. So we thought, you know, she'll be the one.

I'll tell you exactly why else we had it. We had it. The other reason why we decided actually it's probably time, well, I mean, you know, I'm a very ambitious person and I know that if we were going to have a child it was going to be we needed to make sure that we could afford the energy and not just kind of have her as an afterthought. We really wanted to be intentional with the way that we parented.

So that's why we held off because it was like, well, you know, we'll wait until this happens or this happens. But it was just like, you know what, let's just not wait. And the tipping point was a conversation with Ronnie Kahn. I hosted like a Q&A with her for her film Food Fighter and we went out to Movida afterwards for a snack. And I said, Ronnie, when do you think's the right time? Like I know because she's very much the same, you know,

she's always been very purpose-driven. And I said, when do you think that would be a good time to have a kid? And she said, never, never. Like it's never a good time, so just go and do it. And I literally went home and told Nick and, you know, Nick, minute. And up they go. Up they go. Yeah.

And so mum's always been a fan of Ronnie Kahn's, but I think now she's like an even bigger fan. Now she can be grandma to the nut. Oh, that is so beautiful. How have you navigated that, being ambitious, being out there, doing so many things, writing books, working together in a partnership with your partner? How does that work when you throw a nut into the mix for a baby?

Yeah, well, I actually think phenomenon because we'd had this, you know, earlier child, in inverted commas, we already knew how we worked together and we know what our strengths are and we support each other. And we never second guess our decisions. We always make those decisions together. And the best advice that we give, I gave it this morning, you know, to these year 12 girls, which the teacher, I don't know how she took it, but I said, if you are ambitious, you need to marry well, you know, or choose your partner well, because, and I don't you are ambitious you need to marry well you know or choose your partner well because and I don't mean like you know find someone with coin I mean find someone who's

going to support your ambition and who's going to back you all the way and that's Nick you know he is a hundred percent um when we were even when we were first dating he was like you are and like he wasn't glamoring me but he said I believe you're destined for you know really great things and you know I'm there with you all the way and he really truly has been even when I went on MasterChef you know he was sending me care packages and we were writing letters to each other like it was the 18th century it was very it was all and we were like that was like early days. So, you know, he's really dreamy and if I could clone him,

I definitely would. And he's, so especially when I was writing in Praise of Veg and I'm writing a new book at the moment, he's doing the same, slightly different. So when in Praise of Veg was being written, Hazel was like a newborn, so she was kind of like four months, five months, six months. So he could take her out all day and, you know, bring her back to feed and nap and whatever. And I'd be writing the book. This time she's a toddler. And so he brings her back and she's,

she's, you know, got more energy. So they're spending a lot of time outside, a toddler human. Yeah. They're spending a lot of time outside, a lot of time with each other, and they've got a really fantastic bond. But, yeah, like I don't, I think that stuff around, oh, women just have, you know, a different instinct with their children and that's why they need to spend more time, you know, like lets the dad off the hook sort of thing, that stuff's bullshit. Like, honestly, he is just as intuitive as I am with her and if not more so because he's just spent the time with her.

And, yes yes we are so privileged to be able to afford that and we make sacrifices within our lifestyle in order to be able to at the moment be you know sole income hustle and I guess that pushes me as well because I want to keep that lifestyle going absolutely God. How do you do that day to day? What does your day look like? Different days, different days. So most days we'll get up and Nick will take her first thing because we're still co-sleeping.

So like I'm up a lot. I'm like night parenting and he'll day parent. So he'll take her and I'll either do yoga or I'll exercise. And at the moment, because I'm on deadline, I've literally got to book you in a month and a lot. I'm like night parenting and he'll day parent. So he'll take her and I'll either do yoga or I'll exercise. And at the moment, because I'm on deadline, I've literally got to book you in a month and a half. I sit down and I write because my morning is when I'm most creative. And then we do our, you know, do our thing. And then really it's about finding moments of creativity throughout the day. Other days I might be heading into town because I'm on the radio or whatever that looks like. So it really, and particularly before lockdown, our life,

you couldn't even, I couldn't even answer that question because every day was just so different. But that's part of what I love. That's what I found really frustrating and incongruous with my personality with teaching is I'm not a schedule kind of gal, you know, like Nick does my schedule because I genuinely, my mind palace does not function in like a pop, pop, pop, pop kind of way. It's more like, and then this.

Oh, my, it's so good to hear that. Yeah. Yeah, that's the exact reason I'm not a teacher either because I sometimes feel like my brain just can't do the same thing every day at the same time in the month and it's all, there's so much going on. And here's the question, right? How many kids are like that? Within our conventional school system, like we're putting all these children into the same box and we're wondering why some are annoying or some are, you know, have so much potential and yet they are disruptive in class.

It's just like, they're bored. Challenge them. Give them just like they're bored. Challenge them. Give them a project-based something. Don't, you know, don't expect them to be excited for maths every Tuesday at 10.30am, you know, and have their boring recess. Yeah, it's that. Oh, it's so true. And being able to play and be creative and have that time

to just be who you are. I know it's, I hated school for a lot of reasons and I think one of them was that. It just felt like I had so much to say and do and make and then we'd have to do this thing at this time and stick it in a book. And it just seemed really not, you know, in line with who I wanted to be or what I wanted to do.

You have mentioned a lot about purpose. What is your purpose and what kind of drives you to hustle and be so ambitious and do the work that you do? What is that purpose? I'm still working that out as a single sentence. But I think what I aim to do is to inspire people to connect with food, with joy and reckless abandon. And food really, I mean, food for me is a vehicle. It's really connecting with the world, right? It's just that food is something that everybody needs to eat. So I guess it's a really great gateway to say, hey, I've got information that you need that you might like that will add value to your life, like make you eat more delicious food. But also while you're here, you know, did you know that there is

so much to learn about sustainability, about the environment, about culture, about connection, about history and, you know, because I was humanities English. They were my teaching methods, secretly drama. I never taught drama though. I didn't want to. I was like a secret drama teacher because kids in sort of middle school think that drama is a bludge.

I wanted like the serious drama theatre kids in year 11 and 12. That was me. Seriously. Yes. So I think that's kind of my purpose but also from the perspective of why kids. I just think that kids are spongy and willing to learn and if we can get the kids interested as a family unit,

it's more likely that there will be engagement or as a household. So I think there's if we can condense that into a sentence, then that's my purpose. Well, that sounds like I think that was great. Thank you. I think you did really well. I mean there's a good sort of thing you have on your website actually about food being let me read it actually it says

like rather trying to butcher it um so learning to understand food the way it makes our bodies feel how it connects to the world around us should be just as important as learning to read and write and I couldn't agree more I think it's it's vital right because it affects as we know now our entire planet and the way that it functions where does that come from is it is it from your Georgian heritage is that do you think where the root of your love of food has come from definitely and I think that it's come from being in a household that valued food always most conversations with my parents center on food in some way and when we travel so um i got to travel a lot with my parents growing up because they'd be kind of keynotes at conferences in you know all the way from portugal to thailand to um where interesting places where did we go that was

wild um you know we were in italy we were in France, we really, we got around. Sweden, you know, the north, the northernmost, you know, parts of Sweden. Anyway, when we were there, we would always find interesting food experiences. And I didn't recognize this until much, when I was much older. But when my dad is in a restaurant, I used to be really annoyed by this, but he asks heaps of questions of the waiters and I realised that's actually what I do. I do that all the time. Like, you know, tell me more about this dish or, you know, what's that? You know, like I'm really interested and it's part

of actually what I do on stage as well when I'm hosting demos and stuff. So, yeah, you definitely don't know what it is that you are imparting on your kids. So careful the things you say for better or worse. It's a lot of pressure, isn't it? This parenting gig sometimes. So what were your parents like as people? So I'm assuming mum's going to listen to this, so I will be a very careful person. So my mother wrote her PhD with my brother as a toddler on her lap. So my mum is absolutely where I get my drive but also where I got the reassurance to know that it was a possibility to do everything

as well as being a parent. My mum was, there have been points in my parents' lives where they had to, you know, they had to uproot. They had to leave at the age of 36, like my age. My mum had to, you know, leave all her friends behind, leave all their stuff behind and come to Australia with four suitcases and $250. Like they didn't even get to, they didn't have enough money to get to Australia. They had enough to get to Singapore. And then they, thankfully, one of their family friends or like a friend of a friend lent them the money to get to Australia. Like, whoa, right. So I guess they're risk takers. Why? Because in the Soviet Union, you couldn't,

you couldn't take anything valuable like with you when you left. So we left as skilled migrants, but we still, there was a level of, we were certainly, we were emigrating. We were migrating through push and pull factors because the unrest in Georgia was getting stronger. The anti-Semitism in Georgia was getting out of control. My mum was passed over for a position because of her Jewish surname. So it was just like, we need to leave this country so that our children can have a better life. And they're just really hard workers. They don't have, I've never seen them, you know, go to bed before.

They'll be at their computers until like 10, 11 o'clock at night, like chipping away. So mum retired last year and she's got eight PhD students that hadn't finished yet so she's still supporting them to finish. Like that's not retired. She's still, yeah. So I think they're definitely purpose-driven as well and they're not, yeah, they've just always, they're in computer science and kind of knowledge management,

data, information. Like I had the internet before all the other kids, you know, very early adopter. We were in New York and Dad went to a phone shop to get a case for his phone and the guy was like, sorry, we don't have cases for phones like that anymore because it's like a real brick. And Dad's like, do you mean this phone?

And he like flipped it open and it was a QWERTY keyboard, like the first QWERTY keyboard Samsung. And the guy was oh no it was a Sony Ericsson he goes whoa show me that it was yeah so my parents are like uber geeks uber geeks and very I would say that they believe in me mum certainly believes in me um implicitly and is probably very amused by my like devil may care feel the fear but do it anyway attitude dad is more um he's always trying to encourage me to go and do my master's or phd in gastronomy to be taken seriously he's like people won't listen to you unless you have the credentials and it's just like i don't know dad I feel like I feel like people are listening to me anyway just through flying hours but I think now with um especially with the success

of in praise of edge and um with all my kind of media work and I think the point at which dad realized that actually it was okay for me to have left teaching and this was you know a decade ago um is that people in the media now know how to pronounce his surname. So it's like, oh, okay, so she's making something of herself. Yeah. So and yeah, I think, and they've been through enormous trauma. Like mum saw, so my grandparents visited from Israel for a couple of weeks and just before

they left, grandpa was crossing the road and he was hit by a a car in front of mum like he was crossing the road to get into the car and someone knocked him over on Inkerman street and um he was paralyzed for you know and lived they lived with us my grandparents for the next 15 years and mum was just mum's very stoic because she's had to be um I'm reading a book at the moment called The Eighth Life, and it's like one of the thickest books I've read in ages. It's like War and Peace but Georgia. And the people in that book, like all of them have the worst time. All of them have grief and trauma and they just get on with it.

And I really think that that's my family, just like generations of running because of like the reason we were in Georgia is because this is so heavy I'm sorry so my great tonight right it's so good okay my great great grandparents left the Ukraine and Lithuania and Russia to come to Georgia because of the pogroms so being persecuted for being Jewish and then we're in, so being persecuted for being Jewish. And then we're in Georgia, again, being persecuted for being Jewish in the Soviet Union. And then we come to Australia and we're not Jewish enough, you know, because it's like it's, you know.

So, again, it's always been that sort of fish out of water, living out of suitcases, just getting on with it, stoicism. Yeah. What does that mean, not Jewish enough? What it means is that I think a lot of the Jewish community in Australia have been quite established. Like there was, particularly in the 90s, there were kind of second, third generation Jews that had been really comfortable. You know, they came here right after the war, they'd really established themselves and were quite affluent and that's the sort of school that I went to. And coming as migrants from the Soviet Union where we

were never allowed to be Jewish and so we didn't know the customs and the traditions and some of the, you know, the stuff that's assumed knowledge. And so yeah, that's what that meant. And so I guess that compounded my outsider-ness in my day school. Yeah. Did you have to learn all of that as a family? I think my parents sent me and my brother to that school because they wanted us to learn it because they didn't get to. So, you know, it was up to me to disseminate that knowledge back into the home. Not necessarily so that they could keep to it. I'm always surprised actually sometimes mum will say, oh, you know, I'm fasting today or whatever, and I'll be like, really? I don't know.

I think nowadays I treat my Judaism as a culture and a tradition more than, say, a religion, and that's the way that I think I'll be raising Hazy to understand her Jewishness as well. But when the community need someone like a go-to food person, they know who to call and they call me. Yeah, a lot. A lot. I would call you too if I were them.

Definitely. You are welcome. So that's a lot, like a lot of sort of running and having that history of trauma in your family and that like ambition and that work ethic and drive. How do you sit with days where things get tough or there are big emotions or big shocks or someone is passed away? How do you do that? Is it just a swallow it all, keep on going? Never. Not anymore. Are there things that happen?

No, no way. And I think I'm the first generation that doesn't repress. And I think that's hopefully something that I've been teaching my mum because, yeah, you can't. You can't just keep pushing that stuff down because it's intergenerational. And I said before, careful the things you say. Your kids will absorb that grief and trauma, regardless of whether you talk about it or not. And they'll see it as that silence says more than if you actually speak it through. And I've done a lot of work, you know, I have an amazing

acupuncturist that I work with, who's also of the community. So, you know, we work together, especially, you know, when I together, especially, you know, when I talked about the failures around Phenomenon's first launch, the failure to launch, I had so much heaviness in me, just so much weight and grief over the potential of that. But also I guess it was just like compounded grief that I had never dealt with with my family. And because a lot of the time, like I say she's my acupuncturist, but really like she's,

between her and my breath coach, the two of them are witches who I just absolutely adore. And we work together, you know, across different planes, depending. Sometimes I need physical stuff. Sometimes it's just a chat. But when my grandma died, so my mum's mum, the one that had lived with us and helped to raise me, she was definitely the one that didn't talk the most. She really kept everything bottled up. And you would, wouldn't you? You're upended a million different ways. She survived the war. Her mother was a seamstress, so she survived the war in Georgia because of that. Her dad died really early on in the war. So it was just three

women looking after each other in Georgia. And then her daughters, one goes to one end of the world, the other one goes to the other end of the world and then you end up stuck in a place where you don't speak the language. She was a teacher as well actually and a principal. So she, I think she really struggled with the lack of control in this country and she also was such a strong woman that kind of was at loggerheads with my dad and they actually didn't speak in the house for 15 years, like literally not a word to each other. That's the way that they like because they didn't get along. And then I know but grandma got dementia. So later on in her life she started losing her memory

and kind of softening I suppose because of that. And one day we were having dinner and she asked dad to pass the salt and this is like after 15 years and dad like looked at us we all kind of looked at each other with kind of like trying not to and he said here you go and after that she spoke to him like nothing had ever happened for the next for as long as she lived so yeah how did I get onto that we were talking about repression yes so repression yes so when she passed away my mum was on a cruise so my parents were away my brother was interstate and I was the one that was in charge of helping organize the funeral you know doing all of that stuff also just recognizing that she was you know of honouring as she was fading away.

Like I saw her a few days before she passed and I said to her, I hope you know that we all love you. And she was like, oh, sunshine in Russian, you know. I know. Like she was very lucid in that moment. It was like just a really beautiful, you know, all this stuff. There was no way that the Alice who hadn't done the work would have been able to have those kind of moments.

And I really felt like I had an opportunity to help support my entire family through the grief of her passing. And it was, yeah, it was, I think I was just really actively expressing the whole time. And I guess it helps that I don't feel like, I don't know, I don't know why I feel so free with it all, but yeah, I'm pretty vocal now. What does actively expressing mean? Actively expressing means that if I'm feeling agitated in some way, if there's a big feeling coming up and it's probably also Hazel, you know, that's it. So for the last two and a half years, and even before she was born, we were reading up on what it means to be an active parent, you know, conscious, you know, conscious parenting, simplicity parenting, it doesn't

matter what you call it, attachment parenting, all of it really is pushing you to recognise that your child's agency and your child's feelings and help support them with that. But part of becoming a parent, I think also is about coming to terms with your own inner child and your own childhood. So, you know, those big feelings that we were never taught to express, like I see the way that my parents were with Hazy when she was first crying and they'd be like, oh, just distract her out of it. And it's like, no, honour the feelings. Let her cry and say, I see you, I hear you. And the more that I said that to her, the more I realised that I need to say that to myself and I need to say that to the adults

in my life as much as I do to this, you know, little Pisha that's growing up with these big emotions. She's an Aries so she's like full of feelings. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. I have big feelings too. There's something and it's good and they can be gifts, can't they,

when you know how to name them and tame them and understand them and you understand yourself so much more. And I think parenting has a way of shining a big mirror onto all of the stuff that you haven't dealt with, all the good stuff and all of the not so good stuff. It's really interesting. Do you think you're parenting Hazel in a particular way because of the way you were raised? Yes. I think that there are definitely elements of a, I want her to have a Russian heritage. You know, she only really listens to one Australian or one English speaking band, Diver City, and the rest of it is Russian, like Russian songs.

I speak to her in Russian as well. I think there's a culture, like there's a culturedness to a Russian upbringing and like a tiger parent vibe that I definitely would like to impart on her. But it's also on the flipo, there are things that I do because of the way that I was parented, like not despite, but because of I do them differently. So like honour honoring her feelings and not repressing them and like just being considerate of my language, just making different

choices with my language. And also maybe when the time comes, maybe I'll just kind of temper my pushing of her. Cause I think my, um, sometimes my parents pushed me too much and it meant that I rebelled by saying, well, I'm just not going to try. I don't want that for Hazel. So you want her to be ambitious but in touch with herself and her own boundaries and all of those things. That's right. Intrinsic motivators. Yeah. It's such a hard balance, isn't it, to know how far to push? Because I also sometimes think going through really hard stuff, you know, being annoying at school or being different or, and, and much more, you know, difficult traumas actually also make you really cool as a person. A hundred percent. And grow you

as a person. Yeah. So many of my favorite friends. Yeah. Yeah. Have been through that. And you don't want your kids to suffer, but also you want them to be interesting people. So I still don't know where I sit with that. I find that really challenging. Well, I just think that it's, you can only control what you can control, right? So you can help to build up their resilience and help to encourage them to have strong intuition and all of those things. And I don't think you need to force them into difficult situations. I think the difficult situations will come no matter what. And you're role modelling all the time

how to be an interesting person, right? Just having interesting conversations and being interested in others. Some of my favourite friends are the ones that are interested in others, no matter what their area of expertise. They're like, oh, well, tell me more about that. You know, they're polymaths. And I think that's the way to be cool as far as I'm concerned.

Be cool. People that love, you know, acquiring knowledge, acquiring different rooms to their mind palace, not just sticking to one level of area of expertise. So what do you think about womanhood and where are you kind of sitting now with your idea about being a woman in the world of food? Have you come up against, I know you mentioned it briefly before, difficult times with that, being a woman in that role? I think food naturally, particularly food media, has a pretty strong female influence. Like there's lots of, and a real sorority. Some of my best friends are fellow food writers or, you know, people within the media, the food media and cooks and chefs. But I definitely think that unfortunately there is that hangover. Can you

hear Leo, my big dog, that's like making funny noises? He's probably, yeah, I love it. That's just some atmos. So what I will say is that there have been times where I've experienced sexism in the sense of that boys club kind of bravado, you know, ribbing. And it's really shit, but I called it out like I had a I had a I was at a food festival and I was taking a photo with a couple of chefs um with you know three chefs and I was I bent down just before the photo was taken to do up my shoelace and one of them said

hey while you're down there and I got back up and I looked him, right? I looked him straight in the face and I pointed my finger in his face and I said, don't you talk to me like that. It was, you should have seen his face. You, I might've said you shut your mouth. It was, it was good. And I think, again, it's about being like present and backing yourself, right? But that's because I felt like I was powerful enough to be able to turn around and say that. I was food editor at the time. It was just like I could swear so many times.

But here's the thing, Claire, is I will never forget that. And I am an elephant and if you wrong me, you better believe that it will come back to bite you forever. So there have been times when then I've been asked to do things with that person and I've just said no. You know what I mean? So I really think that the way that we stamp that out is

that we stop giving these people chances. And I think that comes obviously through having a seat at the table. And that's probably part of my ambition is I really do want to raise other, you know, people up that might not have those opportunities before with that sort of very white bread boys club that it used to be. But it's not that anymore. I really think, you know, there's some wonderful diverse voices and honouring of otherness and, you know, in the best possible ways. So that can only come if we continue to amplify those stories rather than the ones that can get in the bin. Yeah.

Exactly. I was so mad. I'm so mad for you how dare you thank you thank you how dare you does he not know who you are how very damning but actually um i think because i was a teacher of year eight boys and a lot of not a lot of chefs but some chefs behave like year eight boys that's probably why i have the presence of mind to be able to just give them my teacher voice or, you know, clap back. But I would hate to think what a young woman, you know, just starting out might experience in those circumstances where she doesn't feel like she can clap back. You know, if you're listening and you don't feel like you can clap back, you sure as shit can. You can and you should and we will back you.

Absolutely. I think it's giving, it's almost like I remember growing up with this feeling like I needed permission to do things or to say things and that's not true. You give yourself the permission and obviously that's to the level of privilege, as you said. But, yeah, I do think the more, like with kids, when you're teaching, if there's a consequence or sometimes they just don't even realise it. I think I've worked with

a lot of comedians. I don't even think they know what they've said around me and I, you know, and it's sailed, sailed away on the seas and I've just had to let it, let it go. And now I think to myself at 35, not, not doing that anymore, calling that out a lot more. Even I remember I went to a conference overseas in Europe and one of the very senior sort of speakers on the panel, I was getting my mic up, put on my ear and then tucked into my back pocket. So I had my arms above my head like this and I must have had a hip out

because I was tucking the mic pack in. And this guy said, oh, you can stay like that to me. And he would have been in his fifties. I know, this like senior guy. And I knew that I had to walk out on that stage after him because he was about to, you know, introduce me to the crowd. And what was I going to do? Say, maybe I should have but at the time you know I was very unknown in that podcasting space and I just had to kind of go okay suck it up and here I go and give him a smile what do you do yeah but you don't um yeah I had another situation now that you mention it where I had an older man say belittleittle me, like, you know, what are you doing after this? Oh, well, you know, when you don't have a job sort of thing, when he was the one

that was in the wrong. And it was just like, that's cool. Again, it's going into my mind palace in my little spite room and you are dead to me, like honestly. So yeah, I'm assuming that that gentleman is dead to you, Claire. Correct. exactly. And one day, like as we believe, the world comes full circle, things happen for a reason, you just never know. You've got to be respectful and, you know, you get out what you put in, I guess, in the end. In saying that, what advice do you have for people who are starting out in the media kind of space?

What have you learnt through your years of working in that space now? Put yourself in the media kind of space, what have you learnt through your years of working in that space now? Put yourself in the room, whether that be through unpaid, you know, internship, you know, seek someone out that you would like to assist or that you'd like to shadow, whatever it takes. That is valuable because that's going to give you some flying hours and some cred and you just never know what opportunities come when you're actually in the equation. And as you said, you know, who gives you permission? You give you permission. You can email whoever the heck you want and say, hey, listen, I've been a great admirer of your work and yada yada. Sometimes I get emails like that and I just do not have the headspace to give them

time and space and energy of mine sometimes I'm like that is exactly what I need and I will do everything in my power to you know help them and um so I think yeah it's kind of just even if you want to hedge your bets and email a few people just don't copy and paste because god like you can tell when it's to you and when it's just like a genero i'm a strong admirer of your work as a sort of slash slash and it's somewhere in the email they call you the wrong name don't do that just be really careful so yes that uh I would also say do the work from the other end. So I mentioned my, you know, my breath coach. I started going to see her because I was going to events.

I kept losing my voice and it's because I was feeling the imposter syndrome and I was feeling like I had to shout, you know, but actually I wasn't like talking loudly, but the shouty bits of my voice box and diaphragm were in play. And so she taught me to find my voice much deeper and project it from a different place and find my resonance. So that has meant that that resonance has led to opportunities to use my voice in other ways. So, okay, here's a good tip. So you either do things for love or you do them for money. And if you really love it, then you'll do it for much less than if you were to do it when you didn't really love it, but the money was there.

So just decide for yourself like what your true goal is. Does this contribute to your final destination? If so, then probably it could be a different rate to whatever. And read books, listen to podcasts, be a polymath. That's it. You're already there. You're listening to this podcast. Collect it like a bowerbird.

Oh, yes, collect it like a bowerbird. Yes, 100%. Just beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. You never know when it will come in handy. Yeah. Yes. Oh, absolutely. So what would you eat for someone who is feeling highly stressed

with children at home at the moment and trying to homeschool and work and do all the things and it's a very stressful time? What do you recommend people eat at the moment while they're stuck in their houses? I know that's like a world of food. It's asking you to choose between children probably. It is. I would eat big batches of soup. So big, you know, vegetables in general, but I make lots of big batches of stuff like roasted vegetables that can then be put through pastas, salads, you know, frittatas, borscht or some other kind of vegetable soup that's always in the fridge

so that if I'm at my desk and, oh crap, it's dinner time, at least there's something there. And always, you know, stock your pantry well, have little flavor bombs and, you know, power ingredients in there that can really kind of boost whatever it is that you're serving. But really the thing that's going to help to mitigate your stress is vegetables, plants, eat more plants and whether they're frozen or whether they're fresh or whether they're roasted or whatever, that's, I really think that's going to get you through and cheese. Yeah. Oh God, cheese. I know. Don't we all love some cheese? Oh my God. Yes. Yes. Why, why is it that vegetables do that? Because I know you love vegetables. Impreza veg is wonderful. Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad you reminded me. Being a woman in food,

the other thing that I do want to say is that we as women have the hearth inside our souls, inside our hearts, right? Like deep. And the hearth of the home is the kitchen. If you look at all of mythology across time, it's the woman that is that kind of keeper of, right? And we can reclaim that by spending that time in the kitchen. And I think one of the worst things that's happened for women in the industrial age is the lie that we've been told that it's more convenient to get takeaway food or, you know, let mum off the hook by buying this bucket of chicken or whatever it is, when actually that time is meditation. It is true nourishment, not just for

your family, but also for yourself and your soul. And it's more cost effective and it's definitely something that we naturally have. So unfortunately that distinction between cook and chef, you know, the woman tends to be cook, the man with the tall white hat, you know, would prefer to be called chef. Fod that off. Who cares what the title is? We all are harnessing the power of the elements to change the state and the flavor of an ingredient. And why

vegetables? For exactly the same reason, because mother nature has put those plants on this planet to nourish us. And I know that's like so human centric and whatever, whatever you need to believe. But the point is that across all diets, the only thing really that's consistent is that it's plant forward. So if there's one thing that you can do for yourself, it's eat more vegetables, eat more fruits. All of that food is full of vibration and it's going to nourish you, you know, the closer it is to being picked. So if you can grow your own, awesome. That's going to give you the energy and the power to be able to do more in your life. And when I'm feeling sluggish, when I'm feeling flat

beyond the sunflower seeds, it's green stuff that I reach for. It's, you know, high antioxidant rich, you know, it might be berries or beetroot or whatever it is. I definitely, that's another reason why I've got that pot of soup in my fridge, because at least I know that there are eight vegetables inside that bowl, that every single one of them is doing me good. So that's great. Now, back to your question, Claire. I've forgotten what it is. What was it? I just didn't want to like get off. I was like, one more thing. But what was your final question?

You've got one more. What do I eat? What do I eat? That's it. And you answered it. You did really well. And it was good. Yeah, good.

And yogurt, you know, I really like fermented foods. I've got heaps of fermented pickled preserved things in our fridge and pantry um because again you know all of those ancient foods uh with all that lovely gut bacteria you know the the bacteria that then populates your gut garden is really beneficial too so yeah up those because that really does i was watching something about the science of the gut and how that really does affect the way we think oh yes isn't it yes it's like a second brain that blew me away that level of gut bacteria to help talk me through i know you have you must have to go and we've been talking for so long i could talk to you forever yeah um but what's the gut garden

oh man phrase well if you think about it, so your gut flora, there can be thousands. Nick will be like, no, it was millions. But like there are so many different gut microbes that can be living in your gut. And if you think about it like a garden, so you can't fully control it, but you can help to plant good seeds of good gut bacteria, you know, good bacteria so that they can populate the gut and keep it in a healthy state. Because otherwise what happens is that

your gut gets overrun by, you know, people might know of, you know, candida or, you know, some of that bacteria that can be quite detrimental to not only your inner health, your bits, but also, as you say, to your brain. And your gut can also, especially on candida, this is your gut on candida, it can really crave sugar. So another thing that you can really do is if you get that under control, then you won't crave those sugary kind of high energy but boom, you know, gone, low return foods. Yeah, that big peak and then bottom out and you feel even worse than you did before.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Alice. That was so valuable and so inspiring. What a delight. You're great. You're a great interviewer. I shared, I overshared a lot.

So thank you for giving me the space to do that. Oh, no, it was a joy. Gosh, your life is interesting. There's so many things to that. I just, and thank you for all the work you're doing. I think it's really inspiring and energising for people. And hopefully when we get out of this pandemic, you can get back to those big crowds too.

I would love that. Thank you very much. Likewise. Brilliant. You've been listening to a podcast with Alice Zaslavsky and with me, Claire Tonti. It's been wonderful to have you here. If you love this episode, please rate, review and subscribe for us.

It makes so much difference. And if you loved it, just share it with a a friend we would so love you to do that it's the only way i find podcasts i reckon just from someone else sending it along so you can do that by just clicking up the top and there's a little link for sharing up there i have interviews back in the feed with people like claire bodich and jamila risbyvi, Sammy P, the comedian, Jess Perkins, Triple J radio presenter, and lots of other wonderful humans who have lots of advice and stories to share. For more from Alice, you can head to aliceinframes.com

where links to her wonderful books In Praise of Veg and Alice's Food A to Z can be found, as well as all her other work. And trust me, you'll be found as well as all her other work and trust me you'll be wanting to check out all of her work and follow her on instagram where she shares about many wonderful things including her incredible pink coffee machine it's worth going over there just to view that thing it is a thing of beauty all right that's it from me this week thank you as always to the wonderful raw collings for editing this week's episode and sending so much love to you out there and bloody go and eat some vegetables. That's what I'm going to do now. I'm going to go make some vegetable soup. The way to help our heads and

our hearts, I think, is through our stomachs. Thank you so much to Alice. Till next week. Bye!