TONTS. - Finding Your Voice with Santilla Chingaipe

Episode Date: July 21, 2022

My guest today is the extraordinary journalist, filmmaker, advocate and writer Santilla Chingaipe. Meeting Santi I was immediately drawn into her whip smart, funny and deeply insightful perspectives about the human experience. From her short documentary Black As Me to the TV series Third Culture Kids or Date my Race, Santi explores identity, migration, politics and history with a fresh, warm perspective allowing the watcher to be drawn into her story - building empathy as she goes. You will be absolutely flawed by Santi’s story and the story of her family too. From being bullied in Zambia as a child by her peers to then travelling to Australia on her own as a teenager and creating a new life for herself, to changing careers and hustling her way into a job at the SBS where she quickly became invaluable - what I loved most about this interview was understanding that from that little girl who was bullied for speaking languages that weren’t English and made to feel othered for it (actually causing her to stop speaking altogether for a while as a child) she has become a kick-arse woman who has dedicated her life to sharing her voice with others and also giving voice to those either living or from history who may not otherwise have had a platform to do so. As you will discover, her latest documentary Our African Roots shares stories from Australia’s colonial past that have all but disappeared from our cultural narrative. It is no wonder that she was recognised at the United Nations as one of the most influential people of African descent in the world in 2019.Santi is currently writing a book called Black Convicts and I cannot wait to read it. Here she is the delight of a human that is Santilla Chingaipe Just a side note Santi also apparently makes excellent marmalade which of course makes her my favourite kind of human.For more from Santi you can find her here or you can watch Our African Roots on SBS on demand here For more from me you can head to my website www.clairetonti.com or find me on instagram @clairetontiShow credits:Editing - RAW Collings and Claire TontiTheme music - Avocado Junkie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak, and write today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present, and emerging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been ceded. Hello, welcome to Taunts, a podcast of in-depth interviews about emotions and the way they shape our lives. I'm your host, Claire Tonti, and I'm so glad you're here. Each week, I speak to writers, activists, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans about their stories. A little while ago, I went to a dinner party, which after the years of COVID felt especially magic and bougie. Sitting across from me were

three women, all from different backgrounds, who though came from completely different worlds and had completely different stories, had a lot of commonality too. We spoke a lot about how womanhood is represented in our mainstream media, often in a really homogenous way, and the myriad different ways that women actually show up in the world in all our glorious complexity. Another common thread we found was the internal battles we all faced with body image and our perception of ourselves or the limitations imposed on us by others. I loved every minute of sitting and hearing from these women and felt so bloody lucky to be able to ask them questions and access their work. One of these women was Santilla Chingayope.

Meeting Santi, I immediately wanted to be her friend, and I could sit and listen to her all day long. Her brain works in a really fascinating way. She's whip smart, funny, and deeply insightful about the human experience. Her work in documentary film and in her writing definitely reflects this. From her short documentary, Black Is Me, to the ABC series, Third Culture Kids or Date My Race, Santee explores identity, migration, politics and history with a fresh, warm perspective, allowing the watcher to be drawn into her story, building empathy as she goes. You will be absolutely

floored by Santee's life story and the story of her family too. From being bullied in Zambia as a child by her peers, to then travelling to Australia on her own as a teenager and creating a new life for herself, to changing careers and hustling her way into a job at the SBS, where she quickly became invaluable. What I loved most about this interview was understanding that from that little girl who was bullied for speaking languages that weren't English and made to feel othered for it by her peers, it actually caused her to stop speaking altogether for a while as a child. She has since become a kick-ass woman who has dedicated her life to

sharing her voice with others and also giving voice to those either living or from history who may not otherwise have had the platform to do so. As you will discover, her latest documentary, Our African Roots, shares stories from Australia's colonial past that have all but disappeared from our cultural narrative. It is no wonder that she was recognised at the United Nations as one of the most influential people of African descent in the world in 2019. Santi is currently writing a book called Black Convicts and I cannot wait to read it. Here she is, the delight of a human that has scint Chingayipe. Oh, and on a side note, Santi also apparently makes really excellent marmalade, which of course makes her my favorite kind of human.

All right, on with the show. Santi, thank you so much for coming on Tants. I'm so excited to be here at the museum. It's such a pleasure. Welcome. It's my home away from home. It's a pretty amazing home to be at. Oh my goodness.

As soon as I get here, I get so excited just by all the realms of knowledge. Pretty cool. And I feel pretty lucky that they gave me the keys to this place. Still trying to figure out what I'm going to do with my time here. For those listening, I'm an honorary associate at the museum. So that's a three-year gig. And part of that will afford me an opportunity to look at their African collections and what they've got there and in their world collections.

And hopefully by the end of my time, I will have curated an exhibition and helped inform some of the research into how they look at those sorts of collections. And it's an interesting time as well, because museums are going through a reckoning globally. Their collections, specifically stuff that's been taken from communities that historically have been underrepresented and excluded and the ethics around museums holding on to some of those artefacts which are considered quite sacred in some communities. So yeah, it's an interesting time and I'm really, I feel very, very lucky to have been given the opportunity to nerd out their archives for a couple of years. It's funny that you say the word lucky because as our friend Jan Risby would say, it's not

just lucky, it's hard work and dedication and absolutely the person to be here to be doing that kind of work. A lot of what I do doesn't feel like work and I feel very fortunate that that's what I get to do for a living, that it is very varied and it's a cross interest, but it really is. I feel, I just can't believe my luck that, you know, I get to turn my curiosity into a career. Being able to play in a museum, I mean, that's pretty fun. And the fact that, you know, you can actually make something out of it that is quite tangible and hopefully shapes, you know, storytelling in our community is a wonderful byproduct.

But ultimately just to, yeah, just to be given access, it's just the biggest dream because I never imagined that this is what I would be doing or one of the things I'd be doing. So exciting. So I wanted to take you back. What is your earliest memory as a little kid? I'll tell you the one that comes to mind straight away. And that's a Sunday morning in my parents' bedroom with my younger brother. I've got a younger brother.

And my dad had a cassette player as people did in the 80s and 90s. And my mom would be making breakfast because on the weekends we would have like special meals. So my mom would do like a full set menu for dinner and then on breakfast would have like a full English. Like that was weekend living. So it always, I can smell the bacon. I can smell all of that sort of in my, while I'm in my dad's room and he's reading the newspaper and I'm on the floor with my brother and the tapes are on and it's probably Tracy Chapman or Bob Marley playing. Yeah, it was just, it was just, that to me is essentially what a lot of my childhood

was like. It was very much filled with culture and music and reading, but also quite close knit with my mum, my dad and my brother. Yeah, that's probably my, and this was in Zambia. So I was born in Zambia and I lived there until I was 10. My family migrated to Perth, but this would have been when I was growing up in Zambia. That was one of my earliest memories. And it's one that I look back on fondly because it was, it happened every weekend. And now on my own weekends, now that I live by myself and I'm a grown up now, I have brought back that ritual into my Saturdays specifically. I'd never used to have a Saturday ritual. Now I do, because there's something quite nice about, you know, just breaking up your week, but also having something to look forward to. So I'll do like a really nice breakfast on Saturdays. I'll go for a big walk and then I'll

go to the markets and I'll just sort of, you know, and I'll get like little treats for myself. But I definitely make sure that within before noon at least that is santee time on a Saturday and I'll dance and I'll... Yeah, do you still put on Tracey Chapman? Sometimes. Tracey Chapman is a mood. I feel like you need to be in the mood. It is now I feel like bacon and eggs and listening to Fast Car. Yeah. But it's like a mood. Like I feel talking about a revolution. Hey, you need, you need to be in a certain headspace to listen to that. That home in Zambia that you talk about, when did your home become Australia? When I was 10, when we migrated here. So my mum came to study. So she was, she's now retired,

but she was a forensics pathologist and she was also a ballistics expert. So she came to do some advanced thing. And because it would take a number of years for her to go through that, my parents decided as a family that, you know, we should all move and support my mum as she was pursuing her career goals and stuff. And so that's how we landed in Perth. But my parents had always seen Australia as a stop on their journey. So they always knew that they'd moved to other places. And so when I was 14, we moved back to Zambia. My mum got a job at the time with the United Nations. And so she was stationed in different countries until she retired. And then my dad stayed to work in Zambia. And my brother felt that there was a bigger world out there. And

so he ended up moving to Europe. But then I came back when it was time to go to uni. I sort of thought, I want to go back. I don't know why. I still don't know why I came back. But then I said, I'm not going to go back to Perth. I'm going to try something very different. And so I moved to Melbourne when I was 18. So I've been here ever since. Wow. And you came here on your own. On my own. That's bloody brave, mate. I know. When I think about it now, I sort of think, yeah, I know. And I remember for the first six months I just moved between uni and the place that I was staying and I didn't venture anywhere outside of that because I was just terrified. I was like, if something happens to me, what do I do?

My parents had sort of, and this was back in the day when you had those money pouches. Yeah. I used to move with money like attached to me. Like, you know, once I got to the bank, I was able to put it in the bank. But I remember like the first couple of days before I could figure out where to open a bank account and all of that, I was like moving around with money and worried that if I lose this money, that's it.

And this was, I mean, technology has moved so much in the last decade or so, but this was, you know, what, 16, 17 years ago now. And things moved a bit slower back then. Massively slower. Oh my God. I know podcasts weren't even a thing back then. No, no. Wow. So what were you studying at that time? So I was supposed to become a doctor. So I was doing biomed. I was studying biomed at RMIT in Bandura. And the plan was that once I did that, I would go sit the medical entrance exam,

which is the GAMSAT in Victoria, and I would then do four years at Melbourne Uni. Now, that was all going very well until I sort of started to sign up to the social clubs at uni. And so I signed up for Syn Radio and RMITV, which at the time, I don't know if they still do this, but it was sort of coordinated with Channel 31. And like ever since I was a kid, I loved stories. I loved books. I used to write my own little plays and sketches. I had my own little library. It was just, I loved, loved stories. And I remember when it was time to think about going to university, I was applying for both medical programs, but also journalism.

But my mom sort of thought, you're so smart. Why would you go and do an arts degree? Like just go and do. And also, I mean, I'm now a reformed people pleaser, but at the time I just wanted to make my parents happy. And, you know, I came from a background that was working class and my parents were the first in their families to get educated to have a university degree and everyone else in my extended family hasn't been able to necessarily break that cycle of poverty. So there was definitely this pressure to make

something of my life so that I didn't, that the sacrifices my parents had made would be worth it. That's it. And so I sort of thought, well, they're not asking for much, honestly. I just need to do seven years of this. And I thought I'd do it. And then once I got the degree and I gave it to my mum, I'd be able to do whatever it is that I wanted to do. That was essentially my plan. That was my thinking.

And life just has a funny way of, you know, not going to plan. And from the moment I walked into the Sin Studios and I was recording because they gave me the graveyard shift for what felt like an eternity. So I would be on from midnight until 6am and the only people up at that time were like truckies and who even knows why they're listening to Sin because it's students and you know we'd have like two minute gaps of just dead air which you know in radio is a sackable thing I mean 10 seconds is a sackable thing but two minutes but I remember just I just remember

thinking gosh I could do this forever you know and I and I and I don't care that I don't get paid and I don't like none of that even factored I just remember just thinking I really do this forever, you know, and I don't care that I don't get paid and I don't, like none of that even factored in. I just remember just thinking I really like this and nothing else makes sense. And I remember thinking but I have to be very rational and I have to be a grown-up and I have to make certain choices a certain way. And, yeah, and it became really, really hard until ultimately I think

I was in my second semester, second year. I had probably one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make in my life and conversations with my mother. She was living in Tanzania at the time because that was where she was working and I was there for the summer and I waited until like the second last day before my flight back to sort of break it to her where I sort of said, I don't think I can do this. I said, I don't think I can do this. I just, I don't think I can do this. And credit to my mother, you know, she hid her disappointment

quite well. She didn't quite understand as well. And also, mind you, like I said, my parents were the first in their families and my brother and I are the only ones that have continued that. So my brother and I are the only, in our generation, are still the only ones that have continued that. So my brother and I, the only, in our generation, are still the only ones that have had a tertiary education. So, you know, my mother just sort of said, I just want you to get a uni degree in whatever that is. I don't quite understand this. And that was good. But then it put even more, I put pressure on myself to prove a point because I wanted to sort of go, well, I wasn't doing this just because I was impulsive and hadn't thought it through. Like this is what I genuinely feel I want to do with

my life. And that I think set up my work ethic, what it is now. Yeah. Wow. That makes a lot of sense really to kind of prove that arts is worthy and important. And it's so interesting, isn't it, why we do the things we do. And often it's because of our parents in different ways. What example of womanhood did your mum set for you? Oh man, my mum, because she always travelled for work and because my mother, like I said, she was a forensics pathologist and she was a ballistics expert. So she was, she was a badass. Like my mom always used to walk with a gun in her holster.

Jesus, wow. I remember when she'd come to school, like, you know, I was bullied a lot, didn't have a lot of friends when I was in early primary school. But all of a sudden the kids would want to be my friends when they saw my mom. And, you know, she was always like investigating and testifying in court cases. And, but then she also had this posse of friends who she would hang out with on the weekend. And sometimes I'd get to hang out with them. And they were women who were all, I guess, high achievers in their fields, you know?

So she had friends that were lawyers and some, one of her friends was like a high court judge and another friend was a doctor. And these were women that were very diverse in how they looked and in what they did. Some had short hair, some had long hair, some wore makeup, some didn't wear makeup, some wore brightly colored clothes, others just wore black. I remember just going, wow, whatever they are, I want to be that. Like there was just something about these women that to me was very different from the version of womanhood that I was seeing in the world because my reality was very different. And even when I, like when I said, when my mom had certain career goals and our whole family uprooted to support my mom, that was a very normal thing for me growing up. It was very normal to sort of come from a family where, you know,

you all supported each other and that, you know, everyone could be equally ambitious. But obviously there were compromises that had to be made. So that was very normal for me and that set me up to sort of think that I could do anything and be anything simply because I'd seen my mother, you know, continue to pursue her goals and that she never really. Compromised. Yeah.

I mean, she had to make certain compromises because she was a mum and she had kids and so there's certain things that she wasn't necessarily able to do. But for the most part, and given the fact that she came from a generation, you know, she was the first in her family to not just be educated at a tertiary level, but she was first in many ways, you know, even just being the first forensic pathologist.

There was a woman in Zambia. She was the first. I mean, there was so much that she was breaking the mold and that ultimately shaped my own life and how I ventured out into the world. And so whenever I've been met with, oh, you can't do that or that's not what we expect, it's just very alien to me because I sort of think, well, why not? Yes, because there aren't actually any rules. They're made by someone else. That's it. And so we can make our own rules. That's it. Completely. Why is your mum that way? How is it that she became that person? Her dad. Yeah, my grandfather.

So I'm originally from Zambia. So Zambia was colonised by the British. So up until the 1960s. So my parents at birth were British subjects, you know, and during colonialism, local Zambians weren't allowed to hold certain positions. And so my grandfather was a nurse's assistant and my grandmother had nine children and my mother is right bang in the middle. And she was very different to her sisters in what she wanted to do. And my grandfather was very encouraging of my mother and her pursuits. And he just nurtured that. And he just would bring her along to work and sort of support and nurture her curiosity. So by the time she was ready to go off into the world, she had this person in her corner

who told her that she could be anything she wanted to be. And at that point for that generation, that was an anomaly. Like it was not, it was not normal. It was not what was expected of, of girls, of women. And yeah. And so being the generation now that is quote unquote born free because, you know, my brother and I were born post-independence, there was, there's a lot riding on what you're able to do and accomplish because previous generations didn't have certain opportunities and didn't have access. They weren't free. They weren't legally free. They weren't, yeah, my grandfather for sure. That's so special and exciting. I know. Wow. What was it like in Australia then at that time once you decided

that the arts and radio, is that where you wanted to go in the first place after you did Sin? No, I mean, I did stuff at RMI TV as well. So I was a runner for a couple of TV shows. I produced a couple of TV shows. I camera operated. I pretty much did every job that you could do. But because like I said, I had a point to prove. So I, because my mother's only condition was that I still got a university degree. So I had to enroll into a new program. And so I enrolled into journalism. And then I remember the first semester of that new course, I went, I have to get a job in the industry because I had a point to prove. I had to prove to my mother that I wasn't being impulsive and I knew what I was

doing. But it was hard as well because I'd been at uni and then all of a sudden I had to start again. So now when I think back to it, it just doesn't make any sense. It seems very silly. But when you're 21 and starting again, you feel older than all the other teenagers that are coming in. And so there was a lot of that. My ego just was very bruised. I remember my mother saying to me, just focus on what it is that you've gone there to do. Don't think about that. But I remember sort of thinking, gosh, I would rather not be doing this. But I had a point to prove. And I remember I would spend my lunch breaks and calling up the ABC and just asking them if they took interns. And they were like, we don't take anyone that's in first year. You

have to be in third year and it has to go to your course credit, the usual, usual, usual. I just kept, I don't know why I kept doing this. And until one day I show up at SBS and there was someone filling in for the receptionist that day and this person just happened to give me the email address of one of the news editors and said, you know, email this person and see how you go. And so I sent an email and that news editor ended up being a radio news editor. After a couple of months, he ends up

calling me and says, can you come in for a day? And I said, sure, I go in for a day. And I was one of the most annoying experience kids. And I say this is annoying because when I would get work experience kids, once I was formally working, I realized, wow, I really irritated my colleagues when I came in because I was a person that would do tasks in 10 minutes and I'll be like done waiting for the next one, you know? And usually when they give you a task, it's just really occupy you so that they can focus on their job. And so a day turned to two days, two days turned to a week, and then that turned to a month. And I think that was the longest they could keep me there because of insurance.

And then I recall my manager then saying to me that they wanted to employ me as a casual. And I thought, I'm going to be paid to do this? I've spent the past month just feeling like I'm living my dream. And so then I had to go and change my degree because I sort of thought, I'm already doing the journalism thing and I'm being paid to do it. So might as well do something else. So I did profcom and I majored in politics and economics, but it was sort of to justify because I just sort of thought I'm already being paid as a journalist. I'm working

as one. So might as well. So I was at uni during the day and I'll do the overnight shifts at SBS at night. And I did that until I graduated. Wow. Only someone with your kind of brain and probably your kind of mother would be like, I'm getting a job in journalism, so I won't continue studying that. I'll study something additionally that will help with that and work as well as studying and doing all that together, which is incredibly smart, actually. Well, I didn't even think about it in that way. I just sort of thought if I'm already going to be paying for this, I might as well learn something different. Yeah, because you're learning on the job.

That's it. And the whole point of getting a journalism degree is to get you a job in journalism. I've already got a job in journalism. Skip to head. So and my mother needs this degree. So. Got to prove to her so I'll keep going. Exactly. Gosh, that's

so interesting. So why then do you think that you were that kind of kid? Because I know that we talked about your mother, but you said you were bullied at school as well. Is there something special about the way your brain works? I don't think there's anything special about how my brain works. Most of the time, honestly, it's like, you know, the monkey that's in Homer Simpson's head with the symbol. That's essentially what goes on in my head most of the time. So I don't know if that's being special. I think I've always felt, I've always felt like an outsider in so many ways, even in places and spaces that I'm supposed to, quote unquote, belong. I've always felt like I haven't belonged. And I think that's given me a freedom in many ways. I haven't felt the pressure to try and be like everyone else. I let go of that and I relinquished

that early on because from when I was in kinder, I knew that some kids didn't like me. They didn't want to be friends with me. So I had to figure out what happiness looked like for me in my own little world. And so that set me up to sort of not look for, you know, external validation in many ways. And then when all the other things started adding to that, whether it was gender or race and all that sort of stuff, you know, I remember in high school, this was when I was in Perth, you know, my friends and I would go to the shopping mall to go to Priceline and try makeup and things like that. So at the time, I mean, things have changed now thanks to Rihanna, but at the time there was the only darkest shade you could get was Coco and Tan. And sometimes I'd buy them and I'd mix them and it just was really bad.

You'd get the white casting and it just never really worked, but it was just trying to fit in. And so sometimes I just wouldn't bother with those sorts of things. Friends of mine would be wanting to straighten their hair and, you know, straightening my hair is a process and an expensive one, which my mother wasn't going to indulge me in. And so I already felt that pressure of wanting to fit in as a teenage girl was slightly taken away from me because I just had to be me.

Because my friends were still being my friends, even though I wasn't, I didn't look like them or, and so while they were trying to conform to some standard, I was freed from that because I would never fit into that standard and they were still hanging out with me. And so, and so a lot of that sort of stuff just allowed me to move through the world, kind of going, well, I'm just going to be me. You either like it or you don't. And the older I've grown, the more I've grown in conviction with that belief in myself. But it was set up from just being an outsider from a very young age and just sort of going, well, I'm going to make lemonade from lemons. And that's interesting. You say even at Kimga, so even in Zambia, you felt like that.

Oh yeah. I was, I was constantly bullied. I remember my face being shoved in the sand pit. I remember being pushed off a swing when kids would find me there. So I found refuge in books. So I used to read in a little library. That's all I did. I, for the longest time it took me, I think it was only when I went to primary school that, and I must have been in year two when I actually started to speak. I was, I was, yeah, I was, I just was, I was very shy and I was just worried that I'd say something. And yeah, I was, I was, I was bullied quite a bit and stories and books were the place that I escaped to. And that's, and that's, I think that's why I also liked weekends because on Saturdays I got to enter this world where it was just, you know, just fun and there was food that I, you know, wouldn't,

I'd get to eat in the weekend and my parents wouldn't let us watch cartoons and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah. And it was a safe kind of space. It was. Yeah. Do you think that being an incredibly smart, and that's not, that's just obviously true, person and woman, do you think that that would have been part of the reason you were bullied? Or just kids sensed that you were different? I think when I was bullied in Zambia, I mean, there were a lot of factors there as well. I came from a working class background, so there was quite a bit of class discrimination. But also, you know, I speak five languages. So English was quite a bit of class discrimination, but also,

you know, I speak five languages. So English is one of five languages that I speak. And when I first started, so the first languages that I speak are my mother's mother tongue and one of the, so Zambia has five national languages, including English. So I speak two of the main non-English languages. And so those were the languages that I spoke in a lot. And so when I went to this kinder for the first time, I was communicating in the languages that were familiar to me and the kids bullied me because they said, well, you don't speak English. And so I sort of thought, well, I'll never speak again. And so that's kind of why I stopped and I'd only speak at home and I'd only, it was a process. It was a lot. Yeah, it was a lot.

It was a lot. I'm so sorry. But the irony is given that what I now do for a living is communicating and so it's, look, it's definitely come full circle, which is just wild. And kind of beautiful in a way. That girl that didn't have a voice now has an incredible platform and voice in so many different ways. And he's giving other people a voice too.

Yeah. Bullying. It's an interesting one. And it does shape you in different ways and, you know, different personalities adapt to bullying in different ways. And I think I was fortunate in the sense that I had parents that would always remind me. My dad's catchphrase when I was growing up was, be yourself. And I never used to understand why he used to say it all the time. He's like, just be yourself, just be yourself. And that was a thing that was just drilled in us all the time was just be you, don't compromise on that. And sometimes it didn't make any sense at all. Like, what the hell? I don't want to be me. I want to be like everyone else. But, you know, to the benefit of hindsight, I definitely appreciate it.

And it's so simple but complex, right? And valuable. What a valuable thing because I don't know if you resonate with this, but as I get older, the people that I resonate with and want to spend more time with are the people that are absolutely themselves and aren't compromising and people-pleasing. I'm'm a chronic people pleaser and I'm working on it too. It's not reformed yet, but on my road for lots of different reasons. But it is, it's so wonderful. And people want to spend time and hear from people who are being authentically themselves

and sharing their stories and being different and unique, it is so powerful. But there's something about our schooling system and our society that wants to rob you of that for some reason, lots of reasons, you know, patriarchy, many other things, racism. I wanted to ask you where you went from there. So once you started working on TV and film in that space, what was the first project that you felt really this is Santee, this is me being myself and showing my work in the world in a way in Australia that you resonated with deeply? I don't think I'm there yet. Wow, really? I don't think I've actually made the work that I can go.

This is me. That's all of me, yeah. And part of that I think I've actually made the work that I can go, this is me, that's all of me. And part of that I think is just working through the layers. I think I'm working through the layers of vulnerability. And I hope to get there because I think that will be ultimate creative freedom because opening yourself up opens you up to a lot, opens you up to criticism, opens you up to so much. And if you are vulnerable, completely vulnerable, you have to be very

comfortable with people having lots of opinions about your vulnerability. So it's something that I'm working towards. I couldn't say that there's a single work that I've made so far that captures the full breadth of not just my experience, but who I am as a storyteller. I think there are bits and pieces of me in everything that I've done but I feel that I'm growing in confidence and courage and I hope that I get there. I hope that I get there. I'm sure you will.

Something interesting you said to me, we're at a dinner party and you were talking about that group of women that your mother spent time with and you spent time with growing up. And you said that in Australian culture, we don't necessarily always get to see that vibrant side of women represented in so many different ways, or it's still something that is growing here, but just isn't fully matured yet. Could you talk into that kind of idea of what you see in terms of culture? But I mean, it was just, I mean, even if we just think back to that dinner table that we were sitting across, I mean, it was four women, completely different background, lived experiences,

but there was so much commonality in that. And I don't see much of that reflected in the mainstream. There's still this push to almost a singular way of expressing yourself as a woman, even though we know within our own communities that women come in all sorts of shape, sizes, and yet that isn't necessarily reflected in our media and in the women that we're seeing and even just how they're portrayed. I can't remember which commercial network, but they always put up their photos of the breakfast team or whatever, and I remember two networks put up their photos

and all the women were blonde. And it was just this weird thing where you sort of go, I don't know how many, like I've got friends that are blonde, but not like, it was just like this weird thing of it wasn't even reflective of reality. Different blonde women even. Yeah, yeah. I was like, this is weird.

Why are we all working towards this same aesthetic? And you would think that in 2022, we would have long moved beyond that point, you know, because we see that these conversations are happening. They happen certainly on social media. You can see that it's evident that you can see that the diversity of the representation of womanhood. And yet for some reason or other, it's been very slow to catch up within our media representation. That's a bit disheartening because I would love for young girls, young boys, non-binary folk growing up in this country to feel like they can be whatever they want to be and they can express themselves and they can see an example of that and go, okay, I might not

have the language for what I think I want to be or what I want to do, but I can see an example of that and go, okay, I might not have the language for what I think I want to be or what I want to do, but I can see that Claire over there is doing that really cool podcast and she's doing it on her own and I kind of want to do that and I can hold on to that until I start to figure out what my own voice is, you know. And that's what we want more of. We want kids to be able to sort of go, there's so many ways that you can express yourself as a human being

and there is no right or wrong way of doing this life thing and to give them the permission to be able to express themselves. And that's why I feel very strongly about that representation. That's why I feel that we need more of it and, yeah, I hope it changes. Or being what you can't see, I guess, and embodying that. Do you want to tell us about behind the screens? Behind the screens. Oh, and embodying that. Do you want to tell us about Behind the Screens? Behind the Screens.

Oh, it's so lovely. Behind the Screens is probably the thing that I'm most proud of, I will have to admit. So I started this program about five years ago now and I was asked to go on a lot of diversity panels. You know, why don't we have enough diversity? Why don't we have enough representation? Why don't we have enough representation? And I just sort of thought, gosh, we'll just keep having these conversations. And

I'm really just interested in how do we move forward? And I was still quite early in my career in film. So at this point, I had quit my journalism career. I'd stopped working in broadcast journalism anyway. And I was freelancing as a filmmaker. So I was probably about two years into my filmmaking career. So I was still a baby. But I remember thinking I don't want to wait until I make it or until I get there to then sort of go now I want to help out, you know, because I sort of thought what if I don't make it? What if I don't?

And I'd also been quite fortunate in the sense that I had, my network had opened up so much and I wanted to share that, you know, with other people. And so I reached out to a few partners. I reached out to the Footscray Community Arts Centre in the Western suburbs, partly because I live in the Western suburbs, but also, you know, it's a culturally safe space. And I wanted to encourage people from working class backgrounds, non-English speaking backgrounds, people living with a disability, queer people, to feel comfortable coming in, learning, breaking down some of those barriers that limit access into the sector. And that's just how it started, you know. So for the first three years,

you know, we were running on adrenaline and goodwill and calling on favours from friends. And last year, Film Victoria, who are now called Vix Green, gave us a small little grant that allowed us to change the program a little bit. So we used to do full day workshops. And last year, coming into this year, we've been able to run a nine month program. So we've taken in 12 very talented young people who come from just a diverse range of backgrounds who want to be filmmakers. And we've supported them through the program to get to that next stage of their career so that when they leave, so we've got a graduation coming up. And when that graduation happens, they'll get to go off into the world and hopefully we'll be seeing some of their work in the years to come but I'm very very very proud of it I you know

seeing just how you know because the film industry is a tricky one because it's really built on networks and who you know and that's just how it is by design and and I just sort of thought I can sit here and complain and whatever, or I could just sort of go, what do I have at my disposal? And a lot of people are willing to help. A lot of people were like, yeah, happy to support you. Happy to. And honestly, that's been what it is.

But yeah, I really just, it's a special, special program. And I hope that we can keep going. Oh, I hope so too. That's so beautiful that in your work you're also leaving that door behind you open and bringing people through it and I think that that's so special and such an important thing to be doing. I saw that you interviewed Roxane Gay. I did.

I died when I watched that clip of you. That was so beautiful. Do you want to tell us the story of you asking her a question and then two years later sitting in that interview with her? Yeah. I mean, to your point about opening the door, I always see it as going to a party, you know. You kind of want to go to a party with all your friends there.

It's not fun when you're just by yourself. I mean, it's awkward on a dance floor being the only person dancing number one. Yeah, I would probably be by myself. I love a dance. But you know what I mean? Like after all, you sort of go, gosh, it'd be more fun if there were more people here to do this. And that's sort of just how I view it. I just, it's just being able to have people around you that you can talk to about shared experiences and things like that. And with Roxane Gay, when she visited, I think I was about to quit my job and I was asking these big questions because all of a sudden, here I am, my dream job in journalism. I mean, I've gone through everything to get here.

But somehow I decide that what if this isn't what I'm supposed to be doing? And I've finally got my mum on side as well. And she's so proud and she's got little, you know, press clippings of me on her wall at work and all this sort of stuff, which was really like, I remember one time she was working South Sudan for the UN there and I travelled there like six months after their independence to do a story about South Sudanese Australians that were returning to rebuild South Sudan, which was like the world's newest country at the time. And in the morning, my mum would leave. She used to live in the UN compound and she had a container and she would leave to go to work and I would

leave to go and do my interviews and I would have my little radio mic and I have my little backpack and I'd jump on like a little scooter. And then she'd see me through the day across the compound interviewing all these UN officials and like having all, and she finally clicked, like she finally got it. Like she realized that, you know, this wasn't a hobby, like this was a legit thing. And ever since then, my mom became my biggest cheerleader to this day. Like she still has, she has like Google alerts of my name, like she, anytime anything comes up. So, you know, that's, that's worked out really, really well. But yeah, so I got to a point where I sort of thought, Sandy, what are you doing? You fought so hard for this. Why do you want to go a completely different path? But yeah,

I just felt, I felt like there had to be more and I was approaching 30 and I don't know, something happens at 28, 29 where you just start asking yourself, what is this life? Yes, who am I? Exactly. And I had friends of mine that were going the other way where they were getting married, having kids. And I wasn't, I didn't feel ready for that yet, but I also knew that where I was at was very difficult. And when Roxanne came, I think the conversation was just starting in Australia, whereas in America, they were really quite evolved in the discourse.

And this was during the Obama presidency. So there was a lot of talk around representation, diversity. What does that mean? And how, yeah, how do we get to see greater representation? What does that look like? Do you have to wait for people to give you opportunities? And having come from working in an institution where I was waiting for opportunities, I just sort of thought, do I sit around waiting? And, you know, anyone that's been in a work environment knows that there's favoritism and all this sort of stuff. And you're sort of waiting, do I wait until this manager leaves and then the next manager?

And then, you know, how do I win then the next manager and then, you know, how do I win favour with them? Like it just, you know, office politics things and then how long is that going to take? And then will I get a shot? What is that, you know, am I willing to risk it in that way? And so these were the questions I was asking. And so when I asked her and she said,

just go out and create the representation that you want to see. Yeah, this is Roxanne, wasn't it? So you stood up at an interview of hers. Yeah, she was doing a talk with the Wheeler Centre and she said, you know, create that representation. And I remember thinking, okay, what does that look like? I don't really know. And I stumbled into filmmaking because I had interviewed a filmmaker. She was in her 60s at the time. She's now one of my really good friends. And I was moderating a post-film event. And when we got off stage, she just grabbed my hand and she said, we need to talk. And she is my favorite kind of woman. Like she knows what she wants and she's

just very like, you know, I love Judy. And so we were having drinks. We'd had a bit too much to drink and all this little stuff. And she says to me, you should be making films. And I looked at her and went, is this woman crazy? Like, films? I have never thought of myself as a filmmaker. I have never seen anyone that looks like me making films. I mean, it was already such a big deal trying to become a journalist, now becoming a filmmaker.

Are you kidding me? And so I completely dismissed what she was saying and I thought it was like, you know, in vino veritas because we're drinking and, you know. Yeah, that means wine truth, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's in wine there is truth. So it's that thing of like if people sort of say something and they're like,

you know, over a drink, there's the argument that there's always some truth to what's being said even if you are inebriated. And so Judy had some truth. There was some truth. Yeah. I like how even if you are inebriated. And so Judy had some truth. There was some truth. I like how you're trying to, I like it. You're working with it. Okay, cool. So Judy, yeah. So she then, so I leave and I move on with my life and I get a call the next day from someone on her team saying, Judy's booked a table for you for lunch today at 12. And I remember, so I worked at Federation Square. That's where SBS is based in Melbourne. And this restaurant was on Flinders Lane and I was scheduled to work that day.

Remember, do I chuck a sickie or do I go into work? And I sort of thought, I don't know, there's something about the way my brain works. Again, I think it's the monkey playing the cymbal. But I went, yeah, let's go and see what happens, you know, life's for living. And so I called in sick. Sorry to my managers if they're listening to this now. But yeah, I called in sick and I went to meet Judy and she says to me, you know, I was very serious with what I said last night. You should be making films. I found a cinematographer based in Melbourne for you and you should go around with him on your days off, on the weekends, do some interviews, see how you go, get a feel for it. Wow. And that's how it started. So I was interviewing, there was a film, still making this film. I found a subject and I was following them

and their family for about a year and a half. And all the money that I was making was going to pay for the crew that would come with me. And I loved it. And around the same time, I got a call from a production company called Matchbox Pictures who were developing a show about dating and they wanted to find out about my experiences in online dating. Is that called Date My Race? Yeah, that was Date My Race. And I got to to work with them and so seeing behind the scenes process and being part of that made me sort of go, okay, this is what I want to do and that's what led the transition into film. Wow, and then you quit.

You quit this dream job in journalism and do it full time. I did and now I make films full time. What was that first film that you made where you followed the family? I still haven't finished making it. Oh, really? I know. Yeah, I think I will at some point get back to it. We tried to get it funded at some stage and that just fell through

and then I realised that the thing that I needed to do was get credits up, so I just started making smaller projects and getting those up just because time and, you know, and again, I had a lot to prove as a filmmaker. To your mum. This was to myself, actually. This was less my mum and this was more to myself. There was a lot to prove where I sort of went, well, you sort of turned your life upside down at 30. You kind of have to prove that you can do it. Prove that, you know, you're not being impulsive and you are, this is something that you actually want to do and you haven't just given up on a career.

Because you were bored. Yeah. What have you learnt about taking risks and fear? Because that's a huge amount of, I guess, risk and, you know, challenging yourself. It must have been scary. Yeah, I've learned that it gets harder the older you get. I feel that one.

I feel, because, yeah, you are asking so many questions. Like I said, I mean, you know, I'm at a point now where I sort of go, is this the right decision to be making at this stage in my life? Whereas in my 20s, I sort of thought, let me do it. What's the worst that could happen? At least I'll learn something. Whereas now I don't think I allow myself the permission to sort of go experience in and of itself is enough. And it's okay to fail and it's still okay to fail. When you've had success, it's like you're further up the mountain or something. So you've got further to fall. And the fall is definitely harder. And there's just so much riding on it. There's so much, there's far more expectation.

I think one of the things that I miss about my twenties and making work in my twenties was people not watching or noticing. Whereas now that space to make mistakes isn't, yeah, that affordance just isn't there. Like you just, there's an expectation of whatever you make has to be or say something or do something or make people feel a certain way. And if it misses that, then you fail or your next funding opportunity is riding on the success of that thing. I mean, it's just. It's a mind game. It's a lot, this grown up thing. Yeah, it is, right? And I guess it's also, though, propelling you in a way to make that work that's better

than it was before or learning as you go. I wanted to ask you about Our African Roots because it's an incredibly amazing documentary and award-winning as well. Thank you. Yeah, so congratulations. Did that have that fear around it before it was released in the world? Did you have that fear of the expectations? Because people were watching. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, expectations on, I mean, you know, there were a lot of things that

I did within the narrative to try and control that and to curb that. But how people interpret work is up to the individual. I mean, I can't tell an audience how to read my work. But one of the early narrative devices that I did was I put myself in it. So I, whenever I'm making work, I sort of decide I have to work through which medium do I think this fits best in? Does it work best in television? Is it a film? Is it a podcast? Is it a news story? Is it? And once I figure out where I think it's best suited, then I work with that form, with that medium. And then when I'm in that medium, I'm then thinking, what's the best way to execute the story?

And so with that, I landed on, and with the other producers, landed on it being a personal journey. And part of that was deliberate because I didn't want it to be read as a representative experience of African Australians. Number one, I was going on this journey and I was going on this journey because I was coming at it from a level of expertise. I've been working with the historical archives for a number of years now. I know these documents, I know the stories about these people, and I'm also undertaking a PhD in all of this, which gives me some kind of authority, I'd like to think. And so I sort of thought, okay, but I also know this medium well. So I know how I can

be the audience's eyes and ears navigating all this sort of stuff because I've done it before and I do it quite well. And so there were a lot of things that that putting myself in was doing. And I'm very aware when I do that, because I know that once I put myself in something, I'm exposing myself to, you know, criticism, all sorts of stuff. But it's just the nature of making work publicly. But yeah, I mean, you know, I think the experience of Our African Roots, as opposed to any other work, I think to date, it's probably been my most widely seen work. The work that most people are familiar with me, which in itself is incredibly overwhelming, but it's also the one that really taught me about boundaries. So there's a lot that has changed in my life since that program broadcast and in a good way, not in a bad way,

but yeah. And so it's work that I'm very, very proud of and I hope that it got and is getting Australians to think about their identity and history differently and to ask questions and to question things. It's so interesting. What was it like to sit in the archives and discover those 10 African convicts in our history? What was it like in that moment? When I first started working seriously with the

historical archives, this was in 2018, I got a fellowship from State Library of Victoria, because I'd heard stories about people of African descent in colonial Australia. And the journalist in me went, yeah, but where's the evidence? I mean, you know, you hear stories, but where's the evidence? There's no evidence. Did it really happen? And so I sort of thought, how do I start looking for the evidence? And so when I got that fellowship, that was the start for me. I taught myself how to read the archives, how to transcribe. I mean, things that I hadn't been taught that, you know, I had to learn. And it was slow in the beginning. It was very, very slow. But when I first started, I sort of went, I've got a few names. I had names on a list that

I wanted to verify. And some of the convicts in the first fleet were the people that I definitely wanted to verify. And I remember finding the actual evidence within, whether it was the court documents or whether it was the indent, which is the arrival document when they arrived in the New South Wales and going there, that there is that person that is irrefutable evidence of their existence, it blew me away in a way that I still don't have the language for, you know. I could not believe that these people existed, but they existed and we didn't know much about them,

but also that there were others because that's what then started to happen was I started to uncover more and more and more. And so my tally at the moment is I'm sitting at 500 convicts of African descent. Wow. Yeah, that I've uncovered and I'm writing about them all in a history book. Yeah.

Hopefully will be done soon. Yeah, I mean all of it, the whole experience has changed my life. My life has, a few things have happened through this process. One I have, and this is going to sound very, very strange, but I have felt the presence of these ancestors ever since I started working on this, not in a sort of morbid kind of eerie way, but very much aware that there is a responsibility that comes with talking about the lives of others and talking about the lives of people that are long gone and trying to do your best to honour their lives and their legacy, but also speak to the significance of their lives in the contemporary

sense. And that's been hard. It's been very, very hard. And I've battled with myself. I've battled with whether or not I'm the right person to be telling history because I, again, have not seen people that look like me writing history books, talking about history, also coming at it with a gender lens as well, which again is not something that historically has been afforded. We know that women have generally been excluded out of history, you know. Do you think there's a different way that women talk about history? I think so. I think so.

I mean, one of my favourite thinkers in the world is a woman called Saidiya Hartman. She's an African-American academic and artist as well. And she writes about the lives of what she describes as unremarkable black women. So these are the women that just would have had ordinary lives that just would not be quote unquote historical figures, good historical figures, because generally the people that history records are people that do things that history finds remarkable in some way, shape or form, good, bad and everything in between. And women just living their lives doesn't make for compelling historical storytelling. And so this is where she focuses her gaze. And because these people are not present or poorly documented in the historical archives, she reimagines their lives, which in itself is very, very interesting and very exciting

and very clever. But her thinking has helped shape how I think about the women when I write about them. I mean, I've got a whole chapter dedicated to the experience of women because of that because I remember thinking, yes, there's the shared experience of convicts and everything else, but the women also had a very unique experience and a unique journey and that has to sit on its own and that has to be looked at on its own. And there's other things that I do with other groups as well that sit in isolation but it's deliberate for that reason

because I think that we have to acknowledge that people come at life at different points and life responds and reacts to people based on their systems very differently and we have to acknowledge that and not just have a blanket view of everything because it's very unfair. And it's also unfair to the legacies of these people. Can you tell us about Fanny Finch? Oh, Fanny Finch. She's not a convict. No. She's not a convict, so she doesn't make my book. She was a black settler. She was a black British woman. She came from England. She, yeah, she became the first woman to, the first known woman, I should say,

to vote in an Australian election. Other women had voted before, but their identities remain unknown. She's the first one whose identity we were aware of. I found that incredibly moving. Oh, that's good to hear. That's very good to hear. Yeah. There's something about hearing someone's actual name and understanding their story and then what she must have had to go through at that time. And she sounded like a badass woman, right? She does, doesn't she?

Yeah. And to be a woman of colour as well and to be casting that vote and then there's that little, in the documentary, there's what's it called, like a little voting form? Yeah, it's a little ballot form, yeah. A little ballot form that's now framed. Yeah. And I just thought they're the stories.

Yeah. And it really struck me in watching our African roots, the erasure of our history that there's obviously what else is there that we don't know about. Certainly a lot more. I can tell you that as someone that has been spending time with the archives, there are things in there that even I've had to sort of go I can't look at this right now, I have to look at this,

and just because I'm one person and there's a lot in there. But I think, you know, with Fanny's story, I mean, a lot of credit should go to historian Casey Sinclair because Casey is also a woman of colour. She's a historian and she's worked very, very hard to bring Fanny's story to mainstream attention and for people to be aware of her legacy and her story and her life. And there are a lot of others that are doing remarkable work that are trying to bring a lot of this into mainstream prominence so that people are aware of these figures and these individuals. But it's hard. I think it comes down to, I mean, when we talk about erasures, I think a lot of it comes down to power, you know, who is recording history, who's telling lot of it comes down to power. Who is recording history? Who's

telling our stories? Who has the power? And there's a whole range of reasons why some of these stories are erased. And sometimes it comes down to who is doing the recording. And when you think about it, most of the time people will tell the stories that reflect their experiences. And it's not a good or a bad thing. It's just what it is. Whatever's familiar to you is what you gravitate towards. And so when you've got the same people telling the same stories, you're going to have the same stories told over and over again. And so part of that is how do you disrupt the system? How do you sort of go, how do we disrupt the system to enable people to come in with multiple points of view? And this is how something

like Our African Roots came about, was I came at it from a different point of view. And this is how something like Our African Roots came about, was I came at it from a different point of view. I was curious about people that looked like me in our early history. And I went, well, I want to, I'm interested in that story because I'm interested in what kind of lives they had. You know, that's fascinating to me. And I'm hoping that I can see a part of myself in their stories. And equally, people look for those sorts of things. And so I think it comes down to, it ultimately comes down to power, I stories. And equally, people look for those sorts of things. And so I think it comes down to, it ultimately comes down to power, I think. And that ends up dictating what stories we're told and whose voices we get to hear from. I'm interested in what you said about boundaries

and also about the reaction after Our African Roots aired. Why did it teach you about boundaries? I no longer, they're things I just no longer open to. I no longer, before, I mean, there were multiple ways that people could contact me and send me. I mean, now it's really hard to get a hold of me. And that's deliberate because I do want to have the space to think and to be able to dedicate to my work. And also recognising that the work is a contribution enough.

I'm not there to hold people's hands through the conversation of what the work means. That's not my job, you know. You know, no one's going to be happy with whatever it is that you make. You're always going to come up against people that just don't like it for whatever the reason and that's absolutely okay. It took me a very long time to actually accept that, but that's actually okay.

And now I've just gone in order for me to do my best work, I cannot be tapped into that noise. And so those were some of the boundaries that I had to. That's super wise and a lot harder than it sounds in the age of social media, right? Because the feedback is so immediate and I'm assuming that you would also cop some pretty horrible stuff online sometimes too. Yeah.

And, you know, a lot of that started when I was working as a journalist as well. So, you know, I've gotten all the racist stuff, sexist stuff. It doesn't get easier. It doesn't get whatever. But like I said, because I have limited access, it's few and far between now, which is good. I've even told my friends, I've said to them, you know, if you read something, see something, whatever, just don't tell me. Because what ended up happening was I had friends say, I saw this,

don't need to know, don't tell me. Because I realized that, and actually a friend of mine gave me this advice and he's someone who is a mentor, is someone that his work has greatly shaped my work and I deeply respect him. And I reached out to him and he said to me, the feedback that needs to come to you will always find its way to you. Everything else is just noise. And I hold on to that because it's true. The people that want to give a thoughtful critique of your work will do it in a very, very thoughtful way. And it will come to you in a tone that allows you to engage with it in a measured way. People that just want to spray bullets at you for whatever the reason because they might be reacting emotionally to something, you know,

they're not thinking or seeing you as a human but also they're not engaging with the work and you don't need any of that because I don't care who you are or how strong you are. Even on your best days, that stuff's not great. I mean it's terrible. And you don't want to be on the receiving end of any of that sort of stuff. And so what I've just gone is I don't need to know. I really don't need to know.

The stuff that I need to know, I'll find out about it. Yeah. But that's it. One of my friends said to me, and I've felt this deeply and I'm trying as a reformed people pleaser to work on it. She said how people react to the work is none of your business. That's it. That's their business.

And you can choose if you want to listen to some of it and take it on board, but actually it's none of your business. You just put it out there and you put it out there because you like it and you believe in it. But it's hard. It takes a long time. I mean it's only taken me probably the last eight months to step into that and to put measures in place around me that protect that.

But it took me a very long time. And because I've spent a significant part of my career just sort of flying under the radar. You know, like I said, you know, Our African Roots is probably the first work that was seen by much... So I was making work and people not really having an opinion. And you've gone right to the heart of Australian history and identity right here. You've gone to, you know, ejacula in a way.

And so you sort of go, oh, how do I feel about this? And people are saying mean things about you. I mean, most of the things that people said were very nice and kind, but there were some mean things that we said and not so nice things and things that, you know, hurt those close to me, my family, my friends and things like that. I remember thinking, where is this all coming from? Because this was not the intention by which the work was made. This was not what I set out to do. This is certainly not what the work is doing. And was not what I set out to do. This is certainly not what the work is doing. And, you know, things about you that are being said that aren't not

even true. Like you're sort of going, how is that? Like, what the hell? Like how, you know? And so you, and I remember sort of initially I did struggle with it. I sort of thought, well, that's not me. And I felt this need to want to defend myself, you know? And then I just take a step back and I sort of thought, okay, I need to put my ego aside and really think about the work. The work is doing what it's doing, you know. If I insert myself into any conversation to try and defend myself, the conversation becomes about me.

It's never been about me. It's always been about the work. Completely. Yeah. I wanted to ask you about your writing. Future Women put out a book called Work, Love, Body, and you wrote on love. And you had this little quote that I loved. It says, love means centering the voices of those who have been historically marginalized and respectfully finding a way of reimagining our futures.

Is love a driving force for your work? Wow, Claire. First of all, I'm impressed with how much research you have done. I love it. Mate, I think so much. I've barely scratched the surface. Number two, I'm like, I wrote that? It was during the pandemic when you were single, right?

Okay. Living alone. Okay. If you say single, right? Okay. Living alone. Okay. If you say I wrote it, okay. Love. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I would say. But not in sort of like the sentimental way that we understand love. I sort of see love as something that can be radical,

that can be redemptive, and that can certainly allow us to reimagine our futures. And by love I'm talking about the thing that gives us the courage to not just look out for ourselves but to look out for those around us, realising that looking out for those around us ultimately looks after ourselves as well. And it's a lot. It's a lot to ask for people because, you know, for the most part,

everyone's busy, people have their own lives, and that already in itself is a lot. But it's about what does it mean to be a citizen in this world? What does it mean to be part of a community? What does it mean to care for each other in our communities? What does it mean to look out for the people that are the most vulnerable in our communities? And these are the sorts of things that essentially underpin all of my work. These are the questions that I'm always asking. I'm hopeful of a future where I imagine that every child that's born has access to every opportunity, has access to be able to live the life of their dreaming and imagining and aren't limited by all sorts of structural

barriers. So yeah, love is definitely at the core of my work. What was it like looking for love during the pandemic? Because I know you interviewed people about it. You were kind of experiencing it yourself. It was interesting. So I was dating during the pandemic. And I'm so interested in these. Yeah, I was dating and, you know, I met a couple of people. There was someone I was sort of steady with and it was interesting

because I think was it lockdown number three? I remember saying to Jam that it was a shame that the book had already been published by that point because there was something else that came up because there was a point in one of the lockdowns where, you know, doing COVID tests became a thing. So if we wanted to hang out, we both had to do rats. Like it was still like this thing at the moment where it where, you know, doing COVID tests became a thing. So if we wanted to hang out, we both had to do rats. Like it was like this thing at the moment where it was, you know, and it was just this evolution of just the stages of safety of trying to look after yourself and

all of that. And this was all before, you know, the vaccines came along. Look, it was interesting, but also I was one of those people that put it all on the back burner. I kind of went, well, I can't, like what's the point of actively dating when the world's like gone to hell in a handbasket? Exactly. We're all kind of trying to cope with Dan Andrews telling us about our sex lives in presses. Right? And I was like, wake me up.

When this is then, we'll think about it. And that, and honestly, I think the reemergence now as the world slowly opens back up into dating has been a very interesting thing because I've been dating again and I've seen a change in myself. And I was telling my therapist about this the other day, actually, I was sort of going, I've seen that I have grown more confident in myself I am sure of who I am and what I want in a way that I wasn't before like I was a sort of person who would go on dates with people and I would know from the moment I sat down if there was a vibe but I would always go let me give them a chance like I was always and his friends of mine would sort of go you know how do you know that they could be but I'm always go, let me give them a chance. Let me, like, I was always, and these friends of mine would sort of go,

you know, how do you know that they could be, but I'm like, I know exactly how this is going to end. And for sure, six months, seven months, a year down the track, I'd be like, yep, I knew. And then I would be angry at myself that I didn't trust my gut in that moment. Whereas now I will sit across from someone and the minute I get a, hmm, kind of come up whenever they say something, I'm like, okay, I'm out. And that happened actually a couple of weeks ago.

I was on a second date with this person and there were a few things that they said to me and I went, yeah, can't do this. And that was it. And I didn't feel that I needed another date for me to sort of be able to sort of, you know. Be sure of it. Yeah, I was very aware. I was like, this person has shown me their red flags and their things, and these are things that I'm not willing to compromise on.

These are important things for me. And I can't, I also didn't like them enough to sort of go, yeah, I'm willing to try this out for however long, you know, and I just sort of thought I've already got too much on my plate. And I don't know, I mean, in many ways, I would argue that I am a bit of a hopeless romantic. There's a part of me that does sort of think that there is, you know, that you can meet people with shared values, that you share this journey of life with. When that happens, who knows? But in the meantime, I keep living my life and I keep meeting people

and having shared experiences and all of that fun stuff and that's okay. It strikes me that Maya Angelou quote about when someone shows you who they are, believe them, right? I think about that a lot as I get older. It's always true. It's never not been true. People, like they will tell you and then you'll sort of go, this person said to me, actually back to that quote,

this person I was on a date with, one of the red flags was he said to me, I'm a bit of a cheapskate. And I went, hmm. You're owning it. You know what I mean? Yeah, you've said it. You've told me. And I was like, I like nice things.

And I just sort of thought this is not going to – how is this going to work? I don't want to be feeling guilty, you know, in a relationship dynamic. And money is such a tricky conversation in a relationship anyway. And when you're coming at it with such completely different views, I just – I was like this is a problem waiting to happen and I don't want anything to do with it. And that was one of the, you know, red flags. It was the, you know, when people tell you who they are,

believes them, he told me he was a cheapskate, I believed him. And you were out of there. Yeah, I was like, he knows himself better than I know him. And so, you know, and I think it's one of those things because we try to sort of go, oh, but you're not that. Like you're just saying that. Like I think we should just allow people to be that and to sort of go, am I okay with this?

And I think that's the power with getting older that I really love is that accepting people for who they are, going this is who they are, but then going how does this fit in with my life, right? Because my thing is that I'm not interested in changing anyone or getting anyone to, I mean, if my work gets people to question things and ask questions about the world they're living in, wonderful. But I'm not seeking, you know, changing people, expecting people to look at things a certain way isn't going to happen.

But what I can do is sort of go, I recognise that this is how you're looking at things and it clashes with how I'm looking at things. And because it clashes, I either accept that or I go, you know what? It's been really nice knowing you, but I'm going to love you from a distance. And that's what I do very well now. There is a lot of arm's length loving going on where I'm like, you do you. Because I know that if, because otherwise it's just this constant tension and clashing and the problem is sometimes when you're dealing with personality there's always want to be right as well.

It's like, well, we're never really going to get anywhere and so you just have to accept people as they are and go. That's you. Yeah, and how much am I willing to entertain this in my life? And now I've gone, actually, you know, you can still have relationships with people but not in the ways that sometimes I think when we're children or when we're younger we tend to think that friendships have to be so all-encompassing, all everything, and you realise, well, actually they don't, you know.

It's like family members, you know. It's like I have family members that are homophobic, for example. The minute anyone says anything homophobic, I just get up and leave. When I was younger, I would get into these big arguments with people, like full-on intense, intense going, how dare you, how can you not understand, how can you whatever, and it would just be this thing, this constant thing. Now I just avoid them.

It's simpler. Do you know what I mean? Like it's just be this thing, this constant thing. Now I just avoid them. It's simpler. Do you know what I mean? Like it's just simpler. If I have to see you, let me see you from a distance. But it's not because I'm like. It's not your responsibility to change everyone. Yeah. And life is just too short and if that's how they want

to move through the world, you know, that's on them. But I want to move through a world that how I live is reflective of my views and my values. And in that moment my values say that I don't, anytime anyone says anything derogatory about anyone, I don't want to be around for that. Because that's a reflection of me. If I'm sitting around and people are saying things, it means that I am okay with that.

Like I am not okay with this. I'm out. That's not, you know, and that person would know very well that I am leaving in protest. And sometimes you don't have to leave in protest. You just sort of go, is that the time? Oh, gosh. Let it go.

I know. Absolutely. We bonded the other night over our shared love of Oprah. Oh, my gosh. What does Oprah mean for you? Oprah is my childhood. Oprah is coming home from school and, you know, that's the face that would greet me on television straight after.

Was it Days of Our Lives that came? I think so. Or was it The Bold and the Beautiful? No, it was Bold and the Beautiful. Yeah, yeah, it was definitely Bold and the Beautiful. And seeing this woman who seemed to be interested in so much, yet she was being herself, just was so liberating, you know, especially when you're so young and so impressionable for me.

But also a lot of what I've learned, I've learned through that show about life, about my own life, the questions I ask. You know, my love for Toni Morrison came from the Oprah Winfrey show. I learned about Toni Morrison through Oprah, interviewing her. And Toni Morrison has been one of my greatest teachers in terms of literature and art. And I returned to her work and her wisdom over and over again. And that was because of the Oprah Winfrey show. I have learned to celebrate life, to celebrate those around me, to celebrate my life because of that show.

So now I am the person who loves, I mean, I don't need an excuse for a party, any excuse for a party, but I'm the person who just loves a reason to celebrate because I think that the fact that we are here to begin with is cause for celebration in and of itself. And I think that the older we get, we beat ourselves up so much. And I don't know about you, but I tend to be quite unkind to myself quite a lot. And it's something I'm working on. I'm trying to be a bit more gentler to myself. And so, but I also don't, I never want to have to wait for a certain validation to tell me that, you know, I'm doing well and my work's great or I'm great and all that sort of stuff.

And to do that for myself. And that's something that I have come to value so much over the years where I'll have any time I work on a big project or not just any big project, anything that I commit my time to, I'm fortunate that I've got wonderful friends and family that love to celebrate me and love to celebrate the work. But I always, without fail, will always have a solo celebration

for myself. I'll either take myself out for a nice will always have a solo celebration for myself. I'll either take myself out for a nice meal, have a little date, I'll buy myself the fanciest champagne I can afford, I will wear something nice, I might buy myself something. But I have a moment with myself to sort of go, you did that, Santi, you did that and you deserve nice things because I don't want to wait for people to do that for me. I know that I'm deserving already. And so I gift that to myself. You know, you only get this one

life and I don't want to look back and regret not celebrating or honoring the fact that I'm doing the best that I can every day that I wake up and some days are better than others and I am a work in progress and I will keep making mistakes and hopefully learning from those mistakes but also acknowledging that I am human and that that's okay. It's okay to make mistakes and to just be kind to myself and to celebrate my life whenever I've got the opportunity to. And re-watch, was it the anniversary special? Okay, the 50th birthday with John Travolta.

John Travolta. I don't know why she says his name like that. She's like, John Travolta. And, yeah, John Travolta comes out with the cake and he's dancing to 50 Cent. It was a time in the early 2000s and the whole stage had the flowers and Oprah looked good. She was like in this cream like pant situation with like a

corset thing and Stedman was in the audience looking at her like, yeah, that's my girl. I love it. And that's another thing I loved about her. I loved growing up seeing a dynamic of a powerful, successful woman who wasn't married, who didn't have kids but was still living her life. And I hadn't seen that many examples in the media up until that point. And that meant something to me because it sort of meant I didn't have to, there were different avenues for me in this world, that I didn't just have to settle down unless I wanted to. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, totally. And that really changed so much for me. So I really love that. And then every time I see Stedma I'll to. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, totally. And that really changed so much for me. So I really love that. And then every time I see Stenma, I'll be like, you know, there's hope for myself. Oh, mate. I felt that too and I felt with her weight journey as well. That really resonated with me as a kid because weight's been the thing

for me that I've battled with. Just seeing her being whatever size she is and being incredible and herself at all different points and being vulnerable with that. And, yeah, I found that incredibly inspiring because the narrative was often, well, if you're a curvier kid or a chubbier kid, then maybe you're less deserving or your voice shouldn't be heard. I used to love whenever she had the segments with Dr. Robin. Remember Dr. Robin?

Yes, oh, my gosh. Because she always used to talk about, you know, self-confidence, body positivity before we even called it body positivity. And I remember thinking, I need Dr. Robin in my life because I just always thought that she just articulated the psychological side of things very well and she equipped people with the tools to sort of carry that into their lives. There was a lot.

I mean, I love the makeover shows. I love the makeover shows. Oh, my God. I hated the ones where everyone got a gift because I was like, we are watching this. It's not fun for us. Yeah, you get a car and you get a car. It's so boring.

No, the makeover shows, I was obsessed with makeover shows and any movie with a makeover in it as well. Same, although now they tend to be quite questionable because, you know. Massively problematic. For so many reasons. Oh, my God. We could talk about this forever. You'll have to come back on.

We'll just do a whole episode on Oprah. I would be down for that for sure. All right. Thank you so much, Santi. Thank you for having me. This has been such a joy. Oh, it's been such a joy. Thank you.

Excellent. I can't wait to read your book coming out. It's going to be exciting. When it comes out. Black Combigs? Still the title? Black Combigs is the title. It's being published by Scribner and will hopefully be out late next year.

Fantastic. Watch this space. Thank you. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with Santilla Chingayipe. So for more from Santi, you can head to santillachingayipe.com. That's S-A-N-T-I-L-L-A-C-H-I-N-G-A-I-P-E.com. Or you can also follow her at Santigrams on Instagram.

For more from me, you can head to Claire Tonti on Instagram or to my website, clairetonti.com, where you'll find more about me and what I'm doing in the world at the moment. I also have lots of episodes just like this one with people from all kinds of walks of life. So if you head back in the feed for Tonts, and I have another podcast called Suggestible that comes out every Thursday with my husband, man, James Clement, where we recommend you things to read, watch and listen to and make fun of each other along the way. And that's a whole lot of fun. So that's over on Suggestible podcast on Thursdays.

All right. Thank you to Raw Collings for editing this week's episode. And just as a side note, I'm actually going to be taking a break for the whole of August for the first time in about 10 years, our whole company, Planet Broadcasting, and the whole team are going on holidays. So Renee Brown did it for three months and I thought, well, we could do it for a month, couldn't we? And I think it's a real lesson in deep rest. And so I know what a privilege that is to be able to do, but I think it's a really important time and thing to do as a creative.

Give yourself and your brain some space and time to think. Okay, so that's happening in August. So there'll only be a couple more episodes of Tom's coming out and then we'll restart and kick the season off again back in September. Have a lovely week and I'll talk to you soon. Bye.