TONTS. - Good Mourning with Sally Douglas & Imogen Carn

Episode Date: February 18, 2024

Sally Douglas and Imogen Carn met after the sudden deaths of their mothers only months apart. Their experiences led them to launch a podcast, and their no-holds-barred, relatable approach to talking about grief sparked a growing following of people eager to have honest conversations about what it really feels like to deal with loss. Good Mourning is a compassionate survival guide for anyone dealing with grief - the kind of book Sal and Im wish they'd had to help them through the dark times. Here they shine a light on the many ways grief can impact our lives (hello ugly crying, exhaustion and 'grief brain'). Along with expert advice from clinical psychologist Tamara Cavenett and warm words and insights from hundreds of others who've experienced grief, the authors offer practical tips on coping with isolation and loneliness, navigating grief at work, managing milestones and so much more. Whether you're one month in or ten years down the track, Good Mourning will help you make sense of life after loss - and know that you're not alone.You can find more from Sal and Im at https://goodmourning.com.auhttps://www.clairetonti.comhttps://www.instagram.com/clairetonti/You can contact the show at [e-mail]: RAW CollingsSocial Media: Maisie JG Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak and write today. They were wondery people of the Kulin Nation and pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Hello, welcome to Tons, a podcast of in-depth interviews about emotions and the way they shape our lives. I'm your host, Claire Tonti, and I'm so glad you're

here. Each week, I speak to writers, activists, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans about their stories. Welcome to the first episode of season four. It's been a while. I've been away touring and singing around the country and overseas in the UK and Ireland last year. And so Tonts kind of fell by the wayside, but she's back, she's here, and I'm so excited that you're here to listen as well. Before I introduce my guests, that's two guests this week for our first episode back, I've got a few little housekeeping things to let you know about. I'm going to be starting a regular-ish newsletter again with updates of my music live shows,

podcast episodes and other creative adventures for the year with some recommendations for what I'm reading, watching and listening to. So if you're not already, you can sign up at the link below or at my website. Head on over there and do that. I also love to visit communities. So if you are particularly in Australia and particularly in Victoria, I would love to come and visit your women's circle and sing some songs and share some stories, maybe have a cup of tea.

So you can email me hello at claire20.com for more information about that if you'd like me to come and sing a few songs from my album, Matrescence. At the moment, here are the places you'll find me singing and telling stories at the start of this year. February 26th, I'm going to be doing a trial of a Mums and Bubs class with a beautiful music therapist called Elizabeth McLean from Vital Voices. More information about that is on my website and all of these are there as well, claire20.com.

On March 2nd, I'm going to be in Malwala performing with Sharni Dickens. March 3rd, I'll be in Shepparton singing at St. Augustine's with Sharni and also with Tess from Nurture Doula Tribe. I'm heading to Newcastle from March 22nd to 24th for the Fringe Festival. It's my first Fringe Festival and I've got two different shows, two morning shows, one on Saturday the 23rd at 11.30 and the same on the Sunday 11.30. Both of these shows, Babes in Arms are really welcome. It's not a kid show specifically, but it's a show designed for parents. So the kids will love the music and you'll love the content, the songs. We talk about matrescence and the transition. So it'll be slightly more on the lighter side because we have little people present. And then I'm doing my full

album for two evenings, 6pm at the Underground and the Grand Hotel at Newcastle Fringe Festival. And I'll delve more deeply into the backstory of my album. And I cannot wait for those four shows. So if you're around in Newcastle, March 22nd to 24th. I'm also heading to Geelong and Colac May 4th and 5th and then more details to come. I'm going to be heading back to the UK and playing Every Woman Festival on June 15th and some other gigs around there. More exciting things to come but that's me for now. Okay, let's get on with introducing you to my two incredible guests today. Sally Douglas and Imogen Kahn met after the sudden deaths of their mothers only months apart. In this episode, they'll tell the story of what happened and the cosmic kind of alignment of their meeting. Their experiences and grief

led them to launch a podcast, Good Morning, and their no-holds-barred, relatable approach to talking about grief sparked a growing following of people eager to have honest conversations about what it really feels like to deal with loss. Now, I lost my dad nine years ago this year, and so much of their advice resonated so deeply with me. I felt like in our community, just as in birth, we often don't know exactly what to do, or we've lost ritual and language and support around how to transition women and people who give birth through that journey. I think death is the same. I think our culture often is so afraid of it, we hide it away and we don't really know what to do when it hits us, particularly when it hits so suddenly and without warning. So Sal and Im, as they like

to be called, have also written a book called Good Morning, M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G, which is a compassionate survival guide for anyone dealing with grief. The kind of book they wish they'd had to help them through the dark times. And let me tell you, it would make an incredible gift to give someone who's just lost someone, particularly when you yourself don't know what to say. It's such a good book to read. They give you so many explicit tools and language and ideas about how you can really support someone. Here they shine a light on the many ways grief can impact our lives. Hello, ugly crying, exhaustion and grief brain, along with expert advice from clinical psychologist

Tamara Kavanagh and warm words and insights from hundreds of others who've experienced grief. The authors offer practical tips on coping with isolation and loneliness, navigating grief at work, managing milestones, and just so much more. Whether you're one month in or 10 years down the track, Good Morning will help you make sense of life after loss and know that you're not alone. And gosh, these two women are just joyful and funny and warm and frank. And I cannot wait for you to meet them. Here they are, Sally Douglas and Imogen Kahn. Hello, Sal and Im. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you coming

on to Taunts. Thanks so much for having us, Claire. It's such a treat to be with you. Good to be here. I feel like I'm calling you Sal and Im, Sally and Imogen because I've just spent so much time with your book that I feel like I know you now. Was that a deliberate choice? I'll direct to Sal first. In writing the book, was it deliberate that you wanted to make it feel like a friend talking about grief? Absolutely. When Im and I found ourselves neck deep in grief, we consumed all of the grief books that were out there. And a lot of them we found were really heavy, really theoretical. And we just wanted something that was really accessible, conversational,

and super down to earth, very much like us and very much like our podcast, because we know firsthand that when you're grieving and you can't take a lot of information in, you also just want something that's really easy to digest and comforting. So that was definitely the idea behind the book. You can absolutely tell immediately, it just jumps off the page. And it's the kind of thing I wish I had. I lost my dad eight years ago. And from the first page, I thought, oh God, this would have been so helpful to me to know I'm not alone. And I love that you write that phrase, you are not alone, as a really pivotal kind of idea in the book. I wanted to wind back a little bit and first say I'm so sorry for the loss of Rose and

Vanessa, your beautiful mums. I know no matter how much time passes, grief has a funny way of popping up in all different ways and they're real people with real experience. And yeah, I'm heartbroken for both of you. Do you mind talking us through a little bit about both your stories? I'll start with Im and then I'll ask Sal to tell her story just as much as you're comfortable to tell the listeners about where you started on your grief journey. Sure and thank you for acknowledging our mum's names it's so nice to hear their names because I think as you may know years later like people don't talk about them and that's one of the things that's really important behind what

we're doing with Good Morning it's like letting people know that it's okay to mention our mum's names and keep them alive so thank you for them. And I'm so sorry for the loss of your dad as well. And as you said, you know, grief will be with us forever. It pops up over the years and it's just one of those things I think will carry forever, but I'm sure we'll get into all the weeds of grief. But so my story is I had just become a new mom and my daughter was nine months old and my mom died by suicide. And it was just the most shocking thing that's ever happened to me. Turned my world upside down. My mom never suffered from any previous mental health issues. So it was just a complete shock and out of the blue.

And all of a sudden found myself as a suicide loss survivor. I wasn't a new mum anymore, a new tied mum, which I was just still trying to come to terms with that new identity. And then it just threw me into this whole other identity, which I'm still unpacking, and found myself in a world of trauma, anxiety, guilt, anger, depression, all of the things. Because that's the other thing about grief is it's not just sadness. It's not just a single emotion. It can completely upend your life and change you as a person. So it's been my experience very much since losing my mom. So this was in February of 2020 so it's coming up to

yeah a few years ago now yeah it's just it's been a it's been a journey to this point oh I'm so sorry and it's so fresh really 2020 is not that long ago and you would have had COVID and all of the other things as well plus just that fragile time when you're becoming a mum and trying to figure out what the bloody hell to do with that and sleep as well. So yeah, I'm so sorry for what you've been through, but how beautiful that you could create something from that. Sal, do you want to talk us through your story and then we'll talk about what happened from there and how you two met? So I'm from the UK originally and I moved to Australia in 2014 and my mum Rose lived in the UK. She was perfectly healthy but she had epilepsy and she died from a sudden seizure. It's also known as SUDEP and it stands for the sudden and unexpected death of somebody with epilepsy who was otherwise healthy. So there I am getting up one morning,

turn my phone on and a WhatsApp message pops up from mum's partner who I don't really talk to a lot. So for me, it was unusual to get a message from him asking to call him. So I called him and I'll just never forget the words. They just, it just, everything felt like it just happened in slow-mo. And he just said I need you to steady yourself your mum's passed away and I was supposed to have a call with her the night before so her morning my evening she didn't answer and I thought well maybe she's just forgotten so I went to bed but what I now know is she would would have been probably dead by that point. So I found myself on the next flight home to the UK and any expat or anyone that's been on that flight from Australia to the UK will know that it is

pretty horrendous, let alone when you're then in shock and flying to bury your mum and sort out all of the stuff that comes with the death of somebody. We call it the deadman, don't we, Im, but the estate admin. And for me, that was a really big part of my story because I was the executor of her estate. And so I had to sort out the funeral, all of the death certificates and everything, all the admin that comes with it, things like closing off bank accounts, subscriptions, getting the house kind of sold and valued and cleared out and telling people everything, the whole thing. And because I am not living in the UK, I only had a month to do it. So it was really, really stressful. And I was in such deep shock and pain, but I also was

kind of on this autopilot because I just had so much to get done. It was like my grief and the kind of reality didn't really sink in for a couple of months until I got back to Australia. It was just such a shock, such a huge shock. And yeah, I just wasn't prepared for the magnitude of things that come with a death that can be really triggering as well. You're not only dealing with the shock of the death, but then these constant reminders of their life. Thank you so much for talking us through that too. I think the thing that comes to mind most in grief often is the shock. Even if they've passed away from a long illness, I feel like we don't as a culture talk about

death or grief until it happens to us. Do you want to talk to us, Im, a little about how you cope with the shock in that moment or how long it can kind of take you to, I guess, hit to the reality of what's happened? Because I imagine with the story of your mum, the shock must have lasted for a really long time. It lasted for a very long time. I just remember on the day when I got the news, my body was just pumping with adrenaline. It was like, I'd never been so awake, so alert. It was like, I could feel it rushing through my body. And I don't think I was emotional straight away. I think I was just really just alert and shocked, like literally just in shock.

And then the emotions started to hit. And for me, my grief was very visceral. But the shock element of my loss lasted for a good 10 months. I think the 10-month mark, we had a memorial for my mom at a friend's property. And I'm going down there this weekend. Actually, I haven't seen, we planted a tree for my mom. It's a flame tree in honor. And I haven't seen it since we planted it. So it's going to be quite an emotional experience. But I remember at that 10 month mark when we were planting the tree with all of our friends and family, it's the first time where I feel like it really sunk in

and I felt present because when I went to a funeral, I was not on this planet. Like I was just going through the motions of life and the things that you do, but I was not there. I was on another planet completely. And in some way, I think the shock can help you through a bit. And I think this is something that Sal can talk to as well, but it kind of keeps you safe from comprehending what's happened. And I think it's really important because if we, if we wrapped our heads around the fact that our moms were dead, our lives were going to be like this forever without them in it, like it was, it's just too much. Like it's just too much to bear. So I think the shock kind of keeps you safe a bit from comprehending,

like Sal said, the magnitude of what's happened. So, yeah, for me it took about 10 months and I'll be honest, I still have moments of shock and disbelief. There's still moments where it takes my breath away, the thought of mum doing what she did and the thought of her never being alive, like, again, just takes my breath away. The thought of mum doing what she did and the thought of her never being alive, like again, just takes my breath away. So it's something that I still battle with years later. But yeah, definitely for me, I lived in a state of shock and disbelief for 10 months. Do you resonate with that too, Sal?

Absolutely. I think you go into that fight or flight mode when you receive news of a sudden death or death, you know, any big news like that that can feel shocking. I felt that for the first couple of months, I was like him, just on adrenaline, getting stuff done, just trying to comprehend what was going on. And for me, the shock, it subsided after, I would say, probably six months, but then I would get these little jolts, I'll be walking along, and then you just kind of it catches you out of the blue. And you go, Oh, wait, what, they're not here. Or, you know, you just you get these reminders, these triggers, and it comes back. And I think it's quite common for people to feel the shock, and sometimes even slightly numb for for for a while even you know 12 months a few years like everyone is so different

and that's what we talk about in the book like grief is so different for everybody and everyone's experience of it is different but shock can play a really really big part and I think in a way it does almost cushion us sometimes from the magnitude of the emotions that we can feel. Yeah, I completely resonate with that. It almost feels in the moment, you feel superhero, like a superhero, the adrenaline that kicks in and you're suddenly, I felt 10 feet tall, like other people obviously in my family had a different reaction and almost shut down. But for me, I was in organization mode, ticking everything off a list and almost manic. I think I like cleaned and swept the whole house at mum's after my dad passed away that night.

I just didn't sleep. I went into a real manic phase, which is so interesting, but it's so different. Like other members of my family went to bed and just couldn't get out of bed. But then later on, for me, that kind of depth of grief hit where I really was so exhausted I couldn't get out of bed. And I'm interested, in your book, you talk about the physical manifestations of grief. And I sometimes think we don't talk about how the way we feel about a person and the depth of our emotion actually manifest itself in real physical symptoms. Do you want to kind of talk about that, Sal?

I'm interested in the research around that too and what you mention in the book. So grief can take on many different forms and you're absolutely right. The way it impacts us physically is a huge huge part that we just don't talk about and we're often not even aware of so like you were saying you were exhausted it is so exhausting grief and him and I had that same experience we'd get you know eight to ten hours sleep a night but still feel like we've been partying for a week with no sleep. We just felt it's that dog tired, your bones are heavy, just exhausted. And your body is in that stress response. It's the fight or flight mode. And that can have a huge impact on lots of different things. Not only the stress

can be exhausting, take its toll on your body, all of the emotions that you're trying to process are exhausting. You're using up a lot of mental energy just trying to comprehend what's happening but also it then can trigger lots of other different physical things so it might be a flare up of stomach issues or immune issues i have a autoimmune disease that flared up significantly after mum died because my body was just fighting like the stress and and everything like that and and also people often find they have trouble sleeping things like aches and pains old things might come up old physical issues might pop up again because your body's just working in overdrive but people don't really realize the connection

between the mind and the body and what's happening for them. So they might not even realise that the exhaustion is related to grief, that it's actually quite common for a lot of people to feel completely wiped out. And there are loads of other things that are going on in your brain, like brain fog and anxiety, which I'll let him talk to. But there's all sorts of things that can happen physically after a loss that we're just completely unprepared for. And what we often find when we talk about these things on our podcast, people reach out to us and say, I had no idea that that was linked to grief. So it's really important to have these conversations because people just

aren't aware. Absolutely. And do you want to talk into that anxiety piece as well? Yeah, I just thought of something else. I'm back on the shock before I get into that, that was quite interesting to do with the physicality of grief is I was breastfeeding my daughter at the time that my mum died as well. And the shock from her loss, like my milk supply completely dried up. Like I couldn't even feed my child anymore. My body was just not functioning the way that it was before. So that was really interesting. And also another kind of sense of loss for me that I went through. But yeah, understanding the mind-body connection has been a huge part of my healing journey. The trauma that came with my loss was very significant.

I would spend so much time ruminating in my head. Like Sal said, it impacts your sleep. I was having nightmares. I would wake up and just feel like my reality was the nightmare as well. I just couldn't escape it. And my body hurt. Like I just didn't want to be in my skin anymore. I just wanted to run away from my body and myself. I didn't feel myself. And so, yeah, learning about the mind-body connection was incredibly healing because it validated what I was experiencing. And it was like, okay, there's actually a reason as to why I feel just so exhausted, anxious. So I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder when I was 17. But when mom died, it just turned up to a whole new level. I was having

quite severe panic attacks. I started to have driving anxiety. I was fearful of driving on highways. I thought I was going to lose control and faint at the wheel. But like Sal mentioned, it's our body that's in fight or flight mode. So there's the sympathetic nervous system and then the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest. And the sympathetic nervous system and then the parasympathetic nervous system which is the rest and digest and the sympathetic nervous system is where we're just living in fight or flight and I think I just lived in that state for a long time until I understood that when you experience trauma it actually manifests in your body it stays stored in the cells of your body and unless you do things to release that trauma you're going to stay in that fight or flight mode. So learning things like breath work, we started doing Kundalini energy healing, movement, things that

are going to shift that trauma from your body has been just the most helpful thing for me and my grief and my trauma and healing things like that anxiety. I think I got myself to a better place with my anxiety that I'd been since I was 17 years old after my mum died because I had all this knowledge and tools that I wouldn't have had otherwise because we don't get taught these things. We do not get taught this. We go, go on any anxiety medication and go and speak to a psychologist. And absolutely, there's a place for talk therapy, 100%. I had three different therapists around the clock when my mum died. And it's very important for people if you are experiencing loss or trauma to go and

speak to someone. But we don't get taught about the body. We don't get taught about how to help ourselves and our body after loss, which I think is super important. Oh, I completely agree. I think in terms of trauma response or anything, we're so often taught that it's the mind first and the talk first, which as you said, is important. There's a wonderful book called The Body Keeps the Score. Do you know that one? Yes, we love that.

And even that phrase gives me sort of comfort in a way because it explains to me some of the manifestations of things I've been through and the idea that for me anyway, shifting things in the way I use my body and care for my body shifted my mind in, you know, going from the heart body to my mind has really helped in my healing. I'm really interested in matrescence. It's equivalent to adolescence. It lasts for 10 years. And it's when a woman becomes pregnant or has a child or a person has a child, their body and their mind actually do permanently change. And it takes over 10 years, the research is showing, for us to fully integrate back into who we are.

And it struck me when you were talking about breastfeeding that you were right in that very early fragile stage of matrescence where you're relearning who you are in this new role and then you lose your mom in such a traumatic way. For anyone who has experienced that same kind of loss within that time, is there any advice that you would give them? The best advice I was given, and it's so simple, it was just go micro, strip all of your expectations back, take things minute by minute. I couldn't look into the future. And I'll be honest, I was in a very, very dark place.

And I actually didn't think I'd survive some days. It was so heavy. And that advice of you don't need to worry about tomorrow. You don't need to worry about the next hour. Just focus on the here and now saved me a lot of the time because I would look into the future, but like a future without my mum in it or a future of being a traumatized mother for the rest of my life was just, it was harrowing. Like I just didn't, I didn't see that I was ever going to get better. I didn't see how there was going to be any light back in my life. So when I was in those moments where I was just snowballing into the future, I'd pull myself back

into the room. One of the therapists I was speaking to at the time told me, just smell your baby's skin. Just feel her skin. Like just pull yourself back into the room. Count all of the orange things around the house. Count all of the blue things, like anything that's just going to bring you back into the present moment. So I'll be honest, it was a lot of work. It was work constantly pulling myself back because I'm very much, I was a worrier. I'd be in the future, you know, all in the past going over all the details. So yeah, it was, it was something that was really difficult to do, but it was the best advice that I had is just go micro and let go of your expectations. And I think even when you become

a mom, we can be so hard on ourselves, you know, the mom guilt's so real. So then I had mom guilt and then suicide loss guilt all mixed into one I was like I'm not good enough I'm broken I'm never gonna be the mom that my daughter needs me to be because I'm so broken and I think I just yeah just if anyone else out there is feeling the same way let yourself off the hook you've been through a significant traumatic experience and you will be okay because I thought I wasn't going to be okay. And I'm sitting here today years later and I'm doing okay. You know, I still have my days and I still have my moments, but I survived

and the light came back in my life, which is super important for people to know it is possible. Yeah, that's so, so special and such perfect advice. I think for any kind of trauma, right, that you go minute to minute, micro, just as humans, we're so stuck in the past or the future often, aren't we, when you think about it. And I also think as well that healing and grief, as you talk about in the book, isn't a linear thing. It's not like, cool, now we're healed. It's sort of this ongoing maintenance mode almost that we seem to have to do for the rest of our lives, which sucks. Just as you get older, I feel like maintenance is just a bloody everything, you know, got to just keep doing all the maintenance.

So true. It's work. Yes, it's all work, this adult business and particularly when you become a mom as well, all of that. Sal, I wanted to ask you now in the book, and I love this at the start, you say in this, we won't find toxic positivity, anything about how you should be feeling, how to get out of pain, any silver linings and the phrase, at least you won't find that at least you have got, I don't know, a child or at least you've got a loving partner or at least you have a house or whatever. Why was it important that you included that in the book? Because quite often I think grievers can be on the receiving end of lots of

platitudes. So well-meaning phrases and comments that aren't meant with harm or malice, but can also be quite minimizing. And sometimes even books have them. And there can be this almost toxic positivity and this idea that you have to create purpose from your pain. So we just wanted to be really frank from the outset. This book is a space where you can be your true self. Your grief can be seen, heard and validated. Things like at least or, you know, platitudes that they wouldn't want you to be sad or you're so strong. Things that, you know, they can be well-meaning. And if anyone is listening who said these things, please don't worry it's just sometimes as grievers you can feel like your pain

is being pushed and not really given the space to be felt and also him and i have done something from our grief we've we've created the podcast we've created a movement around talking openly about grief but it's really important for us to let people know from the outset whenever they're consuming any of our content that there is absolutely no expectation or pressure for anyone to make something from their grief. Sometimes there aren't any silver linings. There's a lot of toxic positivity that can be thrown around. I think it's just really important for people to have a space where they can just be a bit shit and that's okay. So we just wanted to be really, really real from the outset, you know, that this book was, it's not about trying to find any

silver linings. Like if you are just, you just want to be seen and held and supported, it's that space. And I think you've really achieved that. I can tell. And Ima, I'll also say thank you so much for being so open and honest about what you've been going through. Because as you were talking, I just thought to myself, there will be so many people, and I know that happens through your podcast as well, who just feel seen and heard and can talk, to be frank, the really fucked up parts about life and grief and losing someone you love, but then the trauma of that and

knowing that there is light out the other side of it, but not in a way that's kind of glossing over all the tricky, spiky, difficult parts of it as well. Oh, I was just going to say, another helpful things that we've learned through doing the work that we do is separating your grief from the trauma too. I think they can feel so intertwined and mixed up. And when you go through a loss, people often feel like, I just want to get rid of my grief. I don't want to feel this anymore. You know, grief can become this really scary, heavy thing that we try to suppress or run away from or push down. But that is the trauma and the loss. It's not actually the grief. So we interviewed a woman called Dr. Joanne Cacciatore, that is the trauma and the loss. It's not actually the grief. So we interviewed a woman

called Dr. Joanne Cacciatore, who was the author of Bearing the Unbearable. And she just articulated it so beautifully. She's like, the death is the awful thing, you know, and the trauma that can come with loss is the awful thing, but grief is actually something beautiful that she doesn't want to get rid of. The grief is the connection to her daughter that died. And our grief is our connection to our mums. And it's your connection to your dad. And it's something that I think in time won't feel so heavy. And it will be the love and the memories and something that we'll be proud to carry with us. So that was really helpful for me to separate all of the heavy, yucky stuff like the trauma and the grief because trauma is something that you can heal. Grief is not. Grief is something that we will carry forever. You can't

cure it. It's not an illness. And that's really important for people to understand as well. But you can heal your trauma. And I am coming out on the other side of that and coming out on the other side of my trauma. but it is work. It's a lot of work that I've committed to that I hope anyone listening, you know, can get some hope from this. But, yeah, separating grief and trauma is another really helpful tool. That's probably the best explanation of grief I've heard, I think. Oh, I'll take that.

Thank you. No, really. I've never really thought about it exactly in that way before. And you're right that grief isn't this sort of thing that we can ever run away from, but also it's got inherent in it so much love and memory of that person. We don't want it to go away. Something I've noticed, it's eight years since my dad passed away. And I wonder, Im, if you feel this, that with grief, the trauma is something you're working through and healing, but sometimes the grief can be

just as painful or just changed because you're actually distancing yourself from like, it's further away from the time that you were with that person. Do you resonate with that feeling? Absolutely. And what I would recommend to anyone is if you are feeling far away from them is doing things that are going to connect you with them. Now, recently I've been feeling a bit more stuck in the trauma and a bit further away from my mum and around Mother's Day, I had a lot going on. I couldn't even, you know, connect with her or think about it. And then the next day I set aside some time and Sal and I have, we talk about this in our book, but we have what's called a grief sesh, which is where you get out the photos and the letters and whatever you have

that reminds you of your loved one or you play their favourite music and you sit there and you feel them and you connect with them and it is painful sometimes connecting with those emotions can feel quite scary but it's super important to do and there may be times where you do it and you don't cry like I know Sal's had some grief sessions where she just feels like connected to her mom and almost yeah smiles and feels happy to be having that, you know, the memories pop up. So I think it's important that, yeah, grief will be forever evolving and changing. But it is important if you are feeling disconnected from your person, set aside some time to remember them. What do you do, Sal, to feel really connected to your mum?

My last grief sesh, I reorganized all of the photos into like a decades and I had a big organization and that for me we actually interviewed a lady called Megan Reardon Jarvis who is a psychotherapist and a grief and loss expert based in the states and she said something really interesting that really resonated with me. And that is to grieve is a verb. So sometimes we might do things and we might not be crying or feeling overly emotional, but it doesn't mean we're not grieving. And I think that's really important to talk about. So for me, I had a grief sesh where I felt connected to my mom and I was processing my grief, but I was reorganizing the photos and looking at the memories and feeling connected to my mum and I was processing my grief but I was reorganising

the photos and looking at the memories and feeling connected to her that way. I also do lots of other things sometimes around big milestones like Mother's Day but also day-to-day as well and some of your listeners might do similar things like watching their favourite TV show. So for me, it's British period dramas. My mum loved them. Call the Midwife, that's like number one. And when I watch those shows, I feel connected to her. Like I feel so connected to her. And cooking her favorite food, listening to sometimes the funeral music or just sometimes music that I know she really loved that evokes memories, smelling her perfume, sometimes wearing her perfume. Little things like that you can do every day or whenever you feel like it just to integrate them into your life and feel connected.

It's a really beautiful way to continue the bond. So there's a theory called continuing the bonds theory. And the idea is grounded in the fact that you can continue that relationship with them even after they pass by doing things that honor them, things that you feel connected to in that moment to them. So also writing can be really powerful, writing a letter to them, or just even writing about them in your journal. Something that Im has done is writing a letter from her mum to her, which can be especially helpful if you're in trauma or trying to process

really difficult emotions. So there's loads of things you can do, but it's a really beautiful way to feel like you're still holding them in your everyday. Have you felt moments where they've been around you? Like, are you spiritual in that way? Have you felt that kind of those magic sort of, some people might call them coincidences. I've felt for me in moments, my dad has sort of shown up in different ways in my life. Have you had that feeling, Sal? Absolutely. Em and I have been on quite the spiritual journey since our mum's passed and we're very much interested in the spiritual connection to them, the afterlife, things like asking for signs. I think for me, one of the first moment that I really felt my mum connected and

close to me was probably about eight months after she died. And it was my birthday evening. And I remember I was sitting on the sofa, I was having a really hard day. It was my first birthday without her. And I think the nature of birthdays, right, the person who gave birth to you, like I was very, very much just very much thinking about my mom and feeling very griefy. And I remember looking down and I saw a white feather next to me. And which for anyone listening is often a symbol of, you know, signs from the other side. And it can be a symbol for the other side. But also I had a really vivid dream about her.

And it didn't feel like a normal dream. It felt like I could see like the texture of her skin. She was next to me holding my hand. I could see her hair. Like it just felt like it was so so real and I woke up the next day and I felt quite confused but also a sort of calm sense of knowing I don't know if you've ever had an experience like that Claire but it did feel like she was there and then that kind of opened up for me and I know for him as well the the sense of paying attention to the little things where we feel them close and it happens a lot doesn't it him it does happen a lot I have a an amazing science story that's actually around so I mentioned before about

the flame tree on my mum's best friend's property that I'm going to see this weekend when we planted it so my mum's name is Vanessa and Vanessa of Greek origin means butterfly. And when she was alive, it was very much like there's a butterfly. It's me. And I was a dragonfly for her. So those two, yeah, they're very symbolic for us. So we went to the property and we were all wearing butterfly clips all over us. So just to honor her, all these little ways to honor her.

And as we were walking up to the area where we were going to plant the tree, there was hundreds of white butterflies just fluttering around our head. Like everyone just stopped and we went, oh, she's here. Like she is here. Even sceptical people that were there were like, what was that? And then they all just disappeared. And the people who own the property have said, I've never seen butterflies like that here. It was just, it was her. And there was a knowing, there's 100% knowing that was not a coincidence. Like she was there with us telling us she was there.

So that was pretty incredible. And so we're big believers of the afterlife. And we've interviewed Laura Lynn Jackson, who wrote the book Signs, which is absolutely incredible. If anyone is interested in this topic, we highly recommend that book. Yeah, she confirmed for us that Sal and I were part of the same soul group and our mums were part of the same soul group too and orchestrated us meeting so we can get super woo-woo.

I love that. I am super woo-woo. We're very spiritual. I love that. I love that I am super woo woo. We're very spiritual. I love that. I love that. I am too. I've had so many moments like that where even when my parents were married, they had yellow roses at their wedding. And then it was the anniversary of their wedding. And I was driving mom around. We were down at the beach and I realized I hadn't booked anywhere for lunch. And we usually try and celebrate their wedding anniversary. And I was panicking and we pulled up at this tiny little winery and I thought it's the middle of summer in the morning to the middle of the night. There's no way that

we're going to get a table, but I ran in and the guy said, oh, you'll never believe it. This couple's just cancelled. I have this table. And I brought, I went in to look and he's like, let me know what you think. And it was this table that was sitting right in front of this incredible view of the winery with a big bunch of yellow roses sitting on the table. And I get goosebumps when I think about it because it was so, like there weren't any other yellow roses on any of the other tables. And then I brought my mum in and she was like in tears

and we sort of sat there and we had this incredible meal. And I really have had experiences like that where I just have felt like, I don't know, the world is just so much more magic and curious than we can comprehend, I think. That's where I've got to. It's a mystery, you know, and it's a beautiful mystery. And I find that not surprising at all that your mums might have orchestrated your meeting. I love that idea. Do you want to tell me or tell us the people listening to you how you met each other? Oh, I love to tell you this, our love story. Obviously it was under very awful traumatic circumstances, but the thing about grief is

no matter how well supported you are, if you've got great support with your friends and family, it can still be a really isolating and lonely experience. And Sal and I, we were pretty well supported. Not a lot of our peers had been through a big loss. So we felt like not a lot of people could relate to us. But yeah, we just really craved to connect with someone who understood what we were going through. And I think somebody outside of our circle too, because the thing with grief is everyone copes differently. So when you're all grieving the same person, it's really difficult to be a support for each other. That led us to search online for things like, am I ever going to be okay again? You know, motherless, motherless daughters in

Sydney, like just, you know, trying to really daughters in sydney like just you know trying to really narrow it down and find your people and um we found an organization called motherless daughters australia and one of they have a facebook group and one of their members one of the community members had arranged a meetup in sydney and we both just clicked attend we thought why not and we both didn't nearly didn't go at the 11th hour because it just felt so out of our comfort zone we're like we don't need this we're not support group type of people like it just felt really foreign to us too and I think sometimes as well a little bit of shame in needing that extra help it's like I should be okay I probably don't need to be here. But we felt a very strong pull, pulling us to the Rose Hotel,

which was another sign. Oh my gosh. Wow. Yeah. And then that was just the start of one of the most incredible, I'm going to get emotional, most incredible friendships that I feel so very grateful for that I do feel like our mums had a hand in arranging because I, I don't know where I'd be if I didn't meet Sal. I think my grief would look very different and my life would look very different. So I'm just so, so grateful that I turned up that day. Yeah.

So you take over cause I'm a blubbering mess now. Don't cry about my dead mom. I cry about meeting you oh and the feeling is so very mutual and it was I you know like him said grief is isolating for me as an expat a lot of my kind of long time support network and family were on the other side of the world so when I came back, it was lonely. And my friends, they were so supportive, but a lot of them hadn't been through a big loss or experienced big grief. So they didn't really understand that as much as people

show up for you, they just don't know what to say. And sometimes you just crave somebody who you can really level with and also just just not be okay around you know sometimes I think we feel this pressure to be like oh yeah I'm fine thanks when actually you're like feel like your world's falling apart so I very nearly didn't go to this meetup either I felt a bit of shame like oh you know just my bit am I a bit of a saddo for wanting to you know go to this group but I'm so glad that I did. Im actually messaged me after the meetup because we didn't really get a chance to talk in full, but we kind of vibed each other out and we kind of got a sense that we were similar ages.

We'd both experienced sudden loss of our mums. So, you know, we were kind of on a similar playing field. And Im messaged me and we met up for a wine and it was just like having a mirror held up you know we'd talk for hours about our experience of grief and the things that we've discussed like oh my god are you feeling completely wiped out and exhausted are you super anxious all of these things and we've just been like yes oh my god and and we felt so validated we've got loads in common as well not just dead mums like we've got a like yes oh my god and and we felt so validated we've got loads in common as well not just dead mums like we've got a lot of things that you know just felt like a really one of those friendships that you just you don't get many of them in life where you just

straight away like you just click and it's also quite unusual really to make a new best friend when you are in the depths of pain. Because quite often when we're grieving, right, we don't feel good about anything. We don't feel like ourselves, our self-confidence can take a real hit. You know, you just feel completely out of sorts. So it's hardly the kind of state to be like on the hump for a new Bezzy, you know. I'm lots of fun come hang out with me I'll just talk about my trauma all day but we you know for him and I it was such fertile ground for our friendship to grow because we held that space for each other we were each other's light and we helped each other explore the grief that we were going through that we felt like not a lot of people understood and from that the idea to start the podcast came because we it eased our sense of loneliness having

that person to talk to it made us feel okay I'm not going crazy like actually this is part of the experience but what we did notice is a lot of people didn't talk about grief didn't know how to approach it there weren't many resources so we felt really lucky that we found each other and we found brilliant resources like Motherless Daughters Australia, but there just wasn't a lot other than that out there. So our friendship was, I guess, the igniter for us to think about, well, how can we help other people then feel the way that we feel in terms of being seen? What has touched you the most about the podcast? Good morning for anyone who doesn't know that that's your podcast.

What's touched you the most? I'll ask Sal then I'll ask him. To be honest, the messages we receive, we get hundreds of messages each week from people saying, thank you for your podcast. It has saved me. And I don't think we let it sink in sometimes, the impact that it's had on people. We just get so many messages that say, I cannot thank you enough. You have helped me so much through some difficult days. And that is why we do what we do. and that's the most important thing for us to be able to serve people in helping them feel supported so I think that touches us both the most it's it's

incredibly special and incredibly humbling it's meant so much to me I mean as Sal said the messages that we get from people have just been incredible but I mean on a deeper level, I think this podcast has pulled us out of a pretty dark place personally as well. Like I think in a lot of ways, Good Morning just shone this light into my life. And I was like, it's given me purpose. And I know it's the same for Sal. It's given us a more meaningful existence. We both had pretty successful careers going into this, but doing Good Morning and the work we do with Good Morning and seeing the impact that it's making in people's lives has definitely made our lives more meaningful. And that's been an incredible gift. And I know we talk about, you know, you don't have to find silver linings, but if we were to dig deep and

find one, I think that would be a huge one for us and and for me just to add I I had a career in PR I still do consult in PR but I knew something was missing from my life and I was talking to mum about that before she died and the day before she died the last text that I heard from that I received from her was basically sharing an article about a hairdresser who cut hair for free for people who were in need. And in another lifetime, I was a hairdresser. And she sent me this article and said, this is, you know, reminds me of you with your kind and caring heart, helping others. You know, I hope that one day you will be able to help others in the way that this hairdresser has. Forgive me, it fantasy for you I'm being self-indulgent or my love mum and I do feel like

the work that we're doing through good morning is fulfilling that final wish and it's the last piece of communication that I heard from her and it's like we were talking about earlier these strange coincidences and these you know that, that's a very, very specific and very poignant message to receive. And for it to be the last thing that I got from her. So I do feel like the work that we do through Good Morning, we found our purpose. It is, you know, it lights us up to be able to help and serve other people. And it's been very beneficial for us both as well in our healing. But for me, I think on a very deep level,

I think this is my sole purpose, to be able to serve other people and hold this space for other people and help other people on their grief journey. I'm getting emotional now too. Mic drops out. Although these mics don't drop very well with their stands loses the effect i deeply resonate with that i think that when you go through a lot in life and there's particularly deep grief but trauma and to be able to feel like you get to a lot in life and there's a particularly deep grief but trauma and to be

able to feel like you get to a place where you're turning that into a gift for other people and I know we talk about you don't want to say like silver linings and at least well toxic positivity but I do really think you feel it very deeply when you land in a place where you feel like you can be of service in a real way. And often it takes a huge amount of courage and vulnerability and listening to that really deep voice and going on an adventure and a path that maybe other people might think, why are they doing that? Or you have to kind of step out of your ordinary life in a way and take risks

and open yourself up. And I think to feel like you are able to do that for each other as well and connect in that way to then give that gift to other people. I mean, what an incredible thing to be doing with the trauma that you've been through. And I agree, I think in a weird way, it's a bit like compost. I know that sounds strange, but you know, all the horrible, shitty things that happen to us, if we don't shy away from them and we don't push them down and we look at them and shine a light on them and sit with them, it is kind of amazing what it kind of can then grow eventually. So thank you so much for the gift that you are giving people with your words and your vulnerability and your friendship,

just sharing your friendship. I feel like that's a lot of what your podcast does too, is that giving people a window into what it's like to find a friendship that's so supportive and beautiful. I wanted to finish because I know we've talked for a while now. There's a beautiful part in your book at the end about what people can actually do. And I'm just going to turn to the page because it's so specific and great. And it's about what you can say if someone in your life has experienced grief. And I love that you say things like, don't say, I can't even imagine. Just say, this is shit. I know right now I can't make this better, but I've got your back through this always. And then this other line we hear all the time, my condolences to you and your family. And instead, which is so distant, right?

So old school. So I think people get real formal after someone dies they're like back in the Victorian era right we're like we're still in the Victorian era when it comes to grief and death oh my god someone said that to my face like someone my age I'm in my 30s I was like really dude really is that all you can muster up it was awkward it was so awkward oh it's so awkward i love that because like who says that in real life it's so true like my people do you'd be surprised oh my deepest sympathies like what are we in pride and prejudice i know your mom rose would have loved that but like what does that mean exactly i feel like rose would have

been a deeper sympathies. Yeah, completely. Yeah. So I love what you say. Instead of condolences, you say there are no words for how hard this is. My thoughts are with you and your family and when you need me, I am here. And then my deepest sympathies instead, you can say things really hard for you right now. I want you to know you are not alone.

I am here for you and I will help however I can. And I think for me, that's the thing I've said to friends since losing my dad, that the best thing you can do is to just say, this is fucking shit. I'm really sorry. You know, I can see how hard this is. And just to be around, what advice would you give to people who have a friend or a partner or someone in their life who's experienced a grief? What should they really do or can they do? Well, I think just the examples that you read out there is just be real in your language.

Don't worry about coming up with anything poetic, profound or flowery. Just be really real, level with them. And if you feel awkward, if you feel like you don't know what to say own it it's absolutely okay no one is expecting you to come out on a horse and be like this great grief supporter you know knight in shining armor type thing if you feel awkward be like hey i haven't really experienced a big loss and i don't really know what to say but i want you to know that I know this is so shit for you right now and I just I want you to know I'm here for you another thing is when you

are deep in grief and especially in the early days the smallest things just feel so hard like things just you're just trying to comprehend what has happened so you're not even thinking about things like doing the washing up or the cleaning or the shopping or walking the dog so thinking about practical help and how you can support that person just make it through the day and make their life a little bit easier is great things like but but being really direct with that as well so not saying oh let me know if there's anything that I can do. Because quite often, like, A, it's awkward because it feels like a bit of a, you know, a passive comment. And also, we're not going to take you up on the offer if our heads are scrambled and we don't even know what we need. what the person might need and and just saying hey I'm available to come and clean your house I can come at 10 a.m or 5 p.m this week on Thursday does that work for you and just being really clear and giving them the option to say yes or no but not putting another thing on their plate where they then need to think about what they need your help with is just is a really great way to help. What would you say? I think when someone

is going through a painful experience or we see people that we care about and that we love hurting, we instinctively want to fix them, right? We want to fix the situation and we want to say all these things to make them better. But when it comes to death, nothing anyone can do or say is going to make it better. Nothing you can do or say is going to bring that person back. And these well-meaning platitudes and things that we say to try and cheer people up can make the griever feel more isolated and like their pain is really minimized. So some good advice would be for people to just listen, like just sit there with them in that pain. And it's really uncomfortable to do because we do just want to try and fix things. That's what

we instinctively do, but it's really helpful for the person who is grieving to just have someone to sit there with them in the shit. And that's what I found with Sal. Like she'd just sit there and just listen to me. A lot of the time I didn't make sense. A lot of the time I was just repeating myself, you know, but having that person that was just sitting there holding that space was one of the most healing things. So when someone is grieving and you're there supporting them and they are talking to you, just think to yourself right now, or you can even ask them, do you want advice right now or do you want me to listen? And it's so helpful when, yeah, you get to make that decision for someone and let them know, I just, I just need you to listen. I don't need you to give me advice. It's not an easy thing to do, but it's really, really helpful for the

person who's grieving. I think that's such great advice. I've even, I think that's really been helpful for me and my partner as well, even just in life, like telling him he doesn't, you don't need to fix this. You just need to listen to me rant and follow you around the house ranting and then say, that sounds really hard. Just give me that space. Yeah, exactly. And I know my kids are the same too. A lot of the time they just want you to say, I'm so sorry that happened to you, mate. And that's it, you know, just to know they're heard. Well, thank you so much, Sally and Imogen. This has been such a gift. Thank you for this beautiful book, Good Morning. I would highly recommend everyone go out and purchase a copy. It is such a special thing to be able to put on

someone's doorstep when you don't know what to say. Let Sal and Im do the talking. And there is so much great advice around self-care as well. It also has some really great stuff about expert advice too around grief, as well as obviously personal stories. And I just couldn't recommend it enough. And go listen to their podcast, Good Morning. Is there anything else you want people to know or any events you have coming up before we finish? If anyone wants to connect with us, they can check our website out at www.goodmorning.com.au and they can find everything they need there. But thank you so much, Claire, for having this hour with us

and for giving us the opportunity to talk about a topic that does not get enough airtime. It's been such a treat. Oh, I've had an absolute, I mean, it sounds strange to say it's been wonderful, but it has been wonderful. You know, that's the thing when we get real and we connect so that that's what life is. That's what life's about really, isn't it?

So thank you so much, Sally and Imogen. Thanks for having us. You're welcome. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with Sally Douglas and Imogen Kahn from Good Morning. For more from these two and to find out more about where you can purchase their book, Good Morning, Honest Conversations About Grief and Loss, you can head to goodmorning.com.au.

And for more from me, you can find me at claretonte.com. And I'm on Instagram where I like to tell stories at claretonte. That's C-L-A-I-R-E-T-O-N-T-I. As I said at the top of the show, I've got lots of events coming up in and around Melbourne, Victoria, and in Newcastle. So you can head to my site at the events page for updated lists of where I'll be. And if you would like me to come and visit your community and sing in your women's circle or for your new mum's group, please get in touch. Hello at claretonty.com.

I would love to hear from you. And if you've got suggestions for the show as well, go on, send me a little email. I would love that. All right. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next week. Thank you as always to Raw Collings for editing this week's episode and to Maisie for running our socials. All right, big love to you.

Tons out. Bye.