TONTS. - I Give My Marriage A Year with Holly Wainwright

Episode Date: August 10, 2021

My guest today is Holly Wainwright, much beloved podcaster of both Mamamia Outloud and the parenting show This Glorious Mess. She is head of content for the Mamamia women’s media company and Holly��s honest, funny and relatable voice is one of my favourites in the Australian podcast landscape. She is an author of three books The Mummy Bloggers, How to be Perfect and her most recent novel, I Give My Marriage A Year which husband man James and I both loved. We talk about her career as a journalist and editor, what it was like working in celebrity magazines in the 90s, being an expat during a global pandemic and what it is to be a mum in 2021. Holly makes so many of us feel seen and champions the idea that we all need to write ourselves an I don’t list. She unpacks what it means to have Superwoman Syndrome why it’s BS and an impossible task and I found her take on life with a career and kids and the juggle so refreshing and frankly very comforting. We also deep dive into her favourite movie When Harry met Sally and what a joy it is to look at all the problematic bits and Nora Ephron's ground breaking writing.For more from Holly Wainwright you can visit her website www.hollywainwright.com or you can find her on her podcasts Mamamia Outloud and This Glorious Mess or buy her books from all good bookstores.Subscribe here for – tontsnewsletterYou can find me on instagram @clairetonti or at www.clairetonti.comYou can email me with suggestions for episode topics and guests to [e-mail]. Feel free to leave me a voice memo to be included in the show.Show credits include:Clip from When Harry Met Sallyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8kpYm-6nuEA big thank you to this wonderful team:Editing - RAWCollingsTheme Music - Avocado JunkieGraphic Design - Emma HackettPhotography - Anna RobinsonStyling - Hilary Holmes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, Taunt's here. My guest today is Holly Wainwright, much beloved podcaster from both Mamma Mia Out Loud and the parenting show This Glorious Mess. She's also head of content for the Mamma Mia Media Company. Holly's honest, funny and relatable voice is one of my favorites in the Australian media landscape. She's a mum and an author of three books, The Mummy Bloggers, How To Be Perfect and her most recent novel, I Give My Marriage a Year, which husband, man, and I just relished and loved and have had so many big, robust discussions about. We talk through her career as a journalist and editor, what it was like working in celebrity mags in the 90s, being an expat during a global pandemic, and what it is to be a mum in 2021. Holly makes me, and I think so many of us,

feel seen. She champions the idea that we don't all need to be perfect, for goodness sake, and that really we should write ourselves an I don't list, not an I do list, and give ourselves a break. She unpacks what it means to have superwoman syndrome, why it's an impossible task, and I found her take on life with a career and kids in the juggles so refreshing and frankly, really comforting. We also talk about her favorite movie, When Harry Met Sally, which is one of my favorites too. And even though, yes, it may still have some problematic elements to it, it's just so much bloody fun and also iconic. And so it's been really lovely to deep dive into that movie and talk about it with Holly. Here she is, Holly Wainwright.

Why writing? That's my first question. I just wanted to know, what does writing give you? Why did you land there? It's the only thing I've ever been very good at and I don't even think I'm that good at it but from when I was thinking about this recently even from when I was really small I used to always write I always used to write in notebooks I used to fill notebooks and notebooks and notebooks when I was a little kid when I was a tween and a teen, and it's always been my comfortable, happy place. And the thing that's funny is as it becomes kind of what you do for a living and also writing the books, which is such an enormous and kind of daunting thing to do, in some ways it stops becoming your happy place because it becomes a slightly scary

place with judgment and insecurity and all those things. But when I strip that away, just me and my words is definitely my sort of, it's such a cliche, but it is like my happy, safe, most holly place. Yeah, that's a beautiful way of saying it. When did you start doing it? Was it in Manchester where you grew up? Yes. So I grew up in Manchester and my parents are both teachers and they're both English teachers. And so books and writing was around us. It would have been surprising in my world if I'd have been an accountant, I think, to be honest. Not that there's anything wrong with accountants, but like that wasn't probably like words is kind of, you know, probably was in

my world. So I always used to write. What I remember really clearly is that when I was in my early, first early years of high school, I used to write these long stories that when I was in my early first early years of high school I used to write these long stories that had me and all my friends as the main characters in them and we were like dating our favorite pop stars and we were living this glamorous life you know what I imagined a glamorous grown-up life to be and every day I'd go to school and read like the new installment of the story. Oh, wow. So I probably found, like looking back, I probably used that like it was like, oh, it's my thing. It's like a way to make friends and be popular and stuff. So I've always done it. And then I guess there have been parts of my career because I was in journalism. I've always been in journalism, but in different

kinds of journalism. And I didn't write much for a very long time. And then I sort of came back to it later in life. And it's definitely been a real joy of the last 10 years or so that I've kind of, that it's re-established itself as a really central part of my life and my work and who I am. And it's definitely a really happy place to be now. Well, congratulations. Oh, thank you. I mean, on all three of your books, but I Give My Marriage a Year, I think is my favorite one. Oh, good. I'm glad. Yeah. Why did you write it? What was the kind of inspiration? So I'm fascinated by relationships. I'm fascinated by long-term relationships, the little deals we make with ourselves, the things that we learn to live with or not, what we'll put up with, what we won't, how we manage to rub along so closely with somebody

or not for a long time. And I guess also in my stage of life, well, as I was telling you before we started recording, I've recently left Sydney. But just before that, I'd lived in the same part of Sydney and had a very tight group of friends for best part of 20 years. And we had a lot, you know, had babies and all that stuff. And then people were beginning to break up because that's the time. God, I know. I'm so interested by this because I'm kind of, I'm 35. And so one of my friends is divorced and that happened quite quickly after she got married. But most of my friends aren't at that stage yet. I'm interested. Yeah.

I mean, to be honest, it's not that lots of my friends split up, but it was certainly the case that, so my oldest child is 11 and I had formed a very good circle with my mother's group I was very lucky in that way actually most of that tight circle is still are still with their partners but certainly quite a lot of our of our peripheral friends began to break up and you could see exactly why like there there is no more challenging scenario, I think, for a couple of any description, of any gender, you know, than having a baby, maybe two babies, jobs, all of those things, very ordinary, boring things are the most challenging times. And I've seen friends and relationships around me break down

a lot in those first few years of parenthood. So I found that very interesting. I'm also really fascinated by how people make big decisions about their life. Because, you know, I don't know if you, I don't know if this gives too much away, but, you know, if you're in a relationship for a long time, you'll have bad days and bad weeks and bad months. And sometimes you can have bad years, you know, you can go through periods where, and how, how do you decide, you know, if there isn't a definitive event, which obviously sometimes there is, and sometimes there are terrible, you know, if there's any kind of abuse, whether it's emotional or physical or, or any other kind of abuse, obviously that's a different matter. But if there isn't a seismic event or something deeply toxic but it's just not right, how long do you leave it

to make that decision? So I became kind of obsessed with that and the idea that this character, Lou and her husband Josh are the main characters and I give my marriage a year that she has been unhappy in her relationship for a while even though she thinks she is it has generally been a happy relatively happy relationship and she decides she's going to give it a year and see if she and obviously for possibly for the sake of fiction all those things the structure of it is that she tries different things throughout the year.

But it's not that far from reality of people. I know the kind of advice that couples give each other. I don't know if this happens in your world, but I know sometimes when you're talking to your friends and you're saying, we're just not feeling very connected at the minute. And people say things like, try putting the phone down every night at eight and like sitting across the table and looking in each other's eyes and, you know, whatever. Or date night or try having sex in a different room in the house every day. Or like people, you kind of, if you're on that self-improvement jag, which a lot of women are at different points in their lives, you kind of share these ideas.

So I wanted Lou to try all that. And then the third thing that made me really want to write it is what I was observing around me. And this isn't just in my friendship circle. This is also from my work at Mamma Mia, where obviously what I do is listen to a lot of women's stories every day. It was a lot of women in midlife, in inverted commas, who were deciding it wasn't enough, that their relationships weren't enough. I think that this is a little bit trite, but I think that women are now able to have what we used to term a midlife crisis in the way that they probably were never empowered or financially free enough to be able to do before in terms of that looking around and going, is this all there is? Although the white male stereotype of that is the sports car

and the inappropriate affair, sometimes for women it's becoming a yoga teacher or quitting their job and studying something or is this all there is, like really, or learning a new language or finding a new project or looking at their somehow lacklustre relationship and thinking, God, I'm not dead yet. You know what I mean? I've got another however long and I want my life to be fulfilling and I want the sex to be good and I want the connection to be strong

and I don't want to feel tied to this. And I see that often it was the women whose stories I was listening to who were saying, I'm not going to settle for this for another however many years. So put all those things in a pot, mix them up. And I was like, right, I'm going to write a book about a relationship that is deciding whether it's done. And that's where the book came from.

It's so interesting because James and I had some really like deep kind of discussions about this and I know some of our other mates who've read the book had the same thing James's bugbear with it and I hadn't even thought about this is how infuriated he was that Lou had all these kind of hoops for Josh to jump through that he didn't know about yeah and James was like he didn't even she didn't even give him a chance he He didn't even know. And I find that really interesting because I do think that's something that maybe women, maybe men do, but I think, I suspect more women do in hetero relationships, right? We have all these almost set up scenarios to prove. Little challenges.

Yeah, right? If you really loved me, you wouldn't have bought me that for my birthday. Yeah, exactly. When you know that they don't know what you want and they're going to get it wrong and then they get it wrong and then you get to be mad about it. You know, that kind of stuff. Yeah, I found that really interesting. I think, I mean, he's not alone. You can definitely tell him he's not alone. One of the things that's really interesting, I don't know if we're going to talk about

this, but the reaction to Lou has been really interesting. A lot of people don't like her. Personally, obviously, I like her. She's my girl, you know, but she does decide not to tell Josh, at least for the first portion of the experiment. But I don't think that's that unusual, as you just said. I mean, from my own experience, again, from stories, again, from my social circles, often the end of a relationship like this can be come as a crushing blow to the man. And again, these are massive stereotypes.

And I'm aware of that, right? Because she's probably been thinking about it for a very long time and it hasn't occurred to him yet. And then, so it seems like it comes out of nowhere, but not always, but often women won't do, won't make such a massive decision impulsively. They will have been turning it around and thinking about it and weighing it up and talking about it with a good, with a close girlfriend or a close confidant or whatever for a while and all of those things. So it can feel like it's a bolt from the blue, but is it really, you know, and that was the other thing is that, you know,

obviously we're not going to give any spoilers away about what happens in the book, but it's I think for a lot of women they're like, really? Did you really think everything was fine, you know? Yeah. And I guess the truth is sometimes men actually do or the other partner, whatever type of relationship is, does and that can be what is so devastating. And I guess in the end, why people bang on about communication and actually saying how you feel and things. You wrote an article about superwoman syndrome. Yes. Yes. Can you

tell me what that is? It's my least favorite thing. So tell me all about it, Holly. It's not absolutely my least favorite thing. There are worse things. There are, you know, COVID deniers and there are, you know. And G-vaxxers and Trump. Exactly, you know, and racists. There are all those things. But it is one of my least favorite things.

Superwoman syndrome is the idea that the model of successful womanhood is that you will be incredible at all things all the time. Now, I don't mean, I don't want to get it mixed up with this kind of having it all stuff because I hate that term. Like I hate it so much because it's always used as a way to put women back in their boxes. Like, oh, you want to have it all. You can't have it all or not at the same time, all those things. I don't actually believe that because I often think people are saying that to women, they just mean you can't have a family and a job. And of course, you can have a family and a job. And you know, men have been having families and jobs forever. And so have women, right? Like, yes, spoiler alert, so have women. So I don't like that phrase. But I

mean more, it's all over social media, this constant hustle, the constant self-improvement, the constant idea that if you try hard enough and you cram enough hours into your day, then you can have an incredible career that is financially fulfilling and you can have the perfect relationship and you can be skinny and ripped and you can be a brilliant friend and a wonderful parent, have a clean house and healthy meals on the table and all those things. And it's just like a matter of wanting it, you know, the hustle, if you've got enough hustle in you. And I feel really strongly that women do themselves a disservice when they don't own up to

the fact that none of us are living that life. You know, if you're making a choice often about work, then something else is sliding and that's fine. Or the other way around. Or, you know, everybody's kitchen is a mess. Nobody has healthy meals on the table every day. And so I wrote this piece. It's actually two years ago now, but it's one of the ones that resonated the most, I think.

And we talked about it in the Mamma Mia Out Loud live show a bit about we should be honest about the things we don't do. And it's a gift when you do that. And so I wrote a sort of rebuttal to superwoman syndrome that included an I don't list of things that I never do. And it seemed to resonate in a way that so many women put their hands up and were just like, no, nor do I. And I thought everybody else did because I think that women so often, and this is mothers in particular, but not only, they think that everyone else has it sorted and that everybody else's lives are fine. And it's only me and, you know, it's only my life that's a mess and it's only me who's overwhelmed. And it's only my third drawdown in the kitchen that looks like somebody vomited in it.

And it's only my kid who swears loudly in the supermarket. And it's only me who can't fit into my jeans from last year. And it's only, and all these things are little personal failures. And why do I look around and I see all these other women who've got it together? And I just know no one's got it together. Like nobody does. Let's be honest about it. You know, people say, when I, if I'm interviewed about books, people say, how do you do it? You know, kids and book and a job. And I always just have to say, well, I don't, you know, there are lots of things that I

don't do. I think that people imagine, you know, I'm probably doing a lot more than I am when it comes to my kids and my family. So what is your experience with that in trying to be that superwoman that or where did that lead you because I know that that was something that happened in your life. It led me to the edge of a breakdown and probably over the edge of the breakdown but I don't want to overstate that there are plenty of people who have much worse mental health battles than I did. But what happened to me at a certain point in my life, my kids were both very little and things have changed. My kids are now older, obviously, and things have changed. Different stresses, different issues, but my kids were

both very little. My youngest one was a similar age to your little one, so just over one probably. Actually, no, he was a little bit older than that. But I had decided to change my career. I'd worked in magazines forever and I was really beginning to hate it and it also was going downhill. And I saw all these interesting things happening online, in women's media online, and I really wanted to take that leap and do this new job and I did and it was amazing like the work side of that was amazing and it's probably the

one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life but in the first couple of years of that when I was trying to be my best self at work learn a new job impress a whole load of new people compete in inverted commas with all these 20 something women who didn't have children and didn't have those kind of responsibilities, push myself to the limit there and be the perfect parent to these little kids who needed me. My little boy was a very bad sleeper, had gut issues, had issues, you know, there was lots going on. I had no family support they're all my birth family are all in um in England and Manchester yep my partner's family are all either in New Zealand or or not around and I think I was trying to do everything right and trying to

be all the things to all the people and I just just lost it. Like, to be really honest, I just lost it. And I know there'll be so many women who would be so familiar with this, but I was trying so hard and every day I would just start crying and I couldn't stop crying. Like, I just, I remember very well, and I wrote about this in the story, I think that I got very good at covering up crying. And I reckon a lot of us in lockdown life have got good at covering up crying, you know, where you're like, I'm fine,

you know, this, where you're like just wiping the corner of your eyes a bit like that. You're like, that's fine. Moving on, I got very good at covering up crying, but I'd be crying in meetings. I'd be crying when I was reading my little boy a bedtime story. I'd be crying when I was cooking dinner. I'd be crying. And all the time, my inner monologue was just like,

what's wrong with you? Why can't you do all this? Like, this isn't that hard. People do much harder things. And I remember I went to the doctor and my doctor at the time was this young female doctor. She was great generally, but she looked at me and she just said oh I see women like you all the time she said trying to have it all and I was just like I really wanted to punch her I really yeah yeah because I was like sobbing in her office like the most vulnerable I'd ever been anyway I got a better I got a better doctor started seeing counsellor and began to pull myself together but that was like I'm pulling myself together is the wrong term. That sounds very dismissive.

I pulled back at work. I just had to say I can't do it. I thought I could do this, but I can't. I, you know, changed things around in my life. I mean, I still have a lot going on all the time, but it was a real lesson for me. Well, even lesson sounds a bit trite. It was just we all have our limits, you know, and this is the thing about superwoman syndrome is we're made to see that it's a personal

moral failing. If you can't, you know, get up at five, do yoga, bake the healthy date balls, like, you know, get your me time in before the kids wake up maybe a bit of meditation that would be great uh you know and then nutritious breakfast and then walk them to school mindfulness conversations along the way know the names of all the other kids all the other moms lunch packs healthy you know maybe you should be doing some volunteering as well going to work being the best you can be never letting on at work that you have kids, never letting on that you, you know, and it's just, we're only human. You know what I mean? We're only human. I know, exactly. And that's so much mental load to take on, right? It's not even just the physical stuff. It's all of the thinking of all of those

things and remembering them all at the same time as trying to be this ultimate version of you and then present some kind of face on social media and all the other stuff we're trying to take on board. And I think kids lay another layer on top of that and then not to mention body image all the things it's just so much for women have you got some things that you do now to throw some of that in the bin I've really I've I let go of a lot of parental guilt like I um how can I best say it without making myself sound like the world's worst person? But like, I, what I've kind of come to terms with is that, and this is an enormous cliche that we've all said a lot of times, but if you actually think about it and live it right, if you think about the things that make you happy, and when I say happy, I mean, sort of what I was saying before about writing about

feeling your most self, like most like you. Now, if you're a parent, it might well be that part of that is your relationship with your children. Like there's so much joy to be had there, but it's not entirely fulfilling for everybody all the time. And it also, especially when they're small, comes with an enormous amount of grunt work and relentlessness and selflessness. And I think that we still live in a world, even though we've come a long way in terms of listening to mothers' voices, women's voices, parents' voices, we've still, our view of the perfect mom is still somebody who is very selfless, who puts her children ahead of herself in all things. And I think that's really bad for us. When I say that, I don't mean that you should, I mean, of course your children come first,

like of course they do ultimately. But I don't think that means that in every miniature choice you make every day, that means you should choose their happiness over yours. I think that that just inevitably builds up to a mountain of resentment. And so I think the two things that I have really learned, that I learned through that process, one of them was about work. So one of them was that I am good at my job. I don't need to work 24-7 and be constantly available to show the world that I am. Who exactly am I trying to prove that to? I think we could all do with a bit

of that sometimes. You know, it is okay sometimes to just say no or not answer that message or not do that thing or do it to the 75% that you can do it in that moment. I've become less of a perfectionist in that space. But also I've let go of the guilt that was really messing with my head around parenting that I figured out didn't actually have anything to do with what was really important to me about parenting, which was my relationship with my kids, right? So they love me and I love them and we have our own messy way of showing that. But for me, that doesn't manifest in complicated birthday parties. Handmade sushi in your lunchbox.

Handmade sushi in the lunchbox, exactly. You know, again, sort of being the most engaged parent who's in every WhatsApp group with everybody in class and always knows what's going on and is talking to the teacher every five minutes and is organ organizing complicated social outings. And I've got friends who get a lot of pleasure out of that side of parenting, but I don't like that's not really my thing. You know, my, the pleasure I get out of parenting is very much in the little messy relationship that's in our house. And I won't be happier than when I'm lying in bed with my daughter and we're talking or

we're reading or, you know, we're messing around or we're just watching movies together or we're doing, you know, whatever it is. I don't feel the need to be that perfect parent externally. And also, the truth of it is, is that, and this, I should always put this first, actually, is that someone in the house has to keep all the mental load going. And I don't do a lot of the family mental load stuff. I just don't. Brent does, my partner, because he has a job and he loves his job, but it's not as demanding as mine. He's not also trying to write books and do these things. And he's actually really good at it. He's actually really good. We've just moved to a new place and he has got the kids signed up in football and art. And he's, you know, worked out

the how to order the school lunches on the complicated apps you have to join everywhere. He's got all that down. He knows like, I don't have to do all that. And I don't have to feel guilty about doing all that, you know, like, so long story short, whatever's right for you, pick the few things that are really important for you to make you feel like your family unit's running and that you're happy in it. And then swap out the things you don't like, you know, as much as you can. Like, obviously, everyone has to do the things they don't like to a point so that you do have some space for that stuff that makes you feel like you, whatever it is. I mean, when I wrote, when I'm deep in writing mode, there are people say, how do you do it? And there's no question that there would be times when

I would rather be at the park with my kids or I should have taken them to this or I should have been at that. And I wasn't because I was writing. And sometimes you feel guilty about that. But also I think, well, that's up to me and them, right? Those are the deals I can make in our house. It doesn't really matter what everybody else thinks. Did you sit him down and say, so mate, we're going to do this as a partnership. We're going to co-parent. You're going to take some of this mental load. How did that come about? Or is he just a magical unicorn person? I don't think he's a magical unicorn person. I think that that was always my expectation. I think it was always my expectation that when I had kids, I wasn't going to be 100% responsible for everything. It's interesting

because I grew up with two working parents. And although I can't say it was equal, it was very normal that like my dad cooked dinner sometimes, my mom cooked dinner sometimes, you know, they shared chores. My dad often did the supermarket shop. Like there wasn't, I didn't grow up with a desperately traditional gender split. So to me, it didn't seem like a big deal, but I certainly have learned that it is a big deal, which astounds me. It astounds me. What do you mean? It astounds me that in 2021, I still know so many women who have to carry all of the load of the house even though they're also carrying the load of a big job outside the house like I just I always just want to say to them just don't do it just go on strike like why would you do that

it's ridiculous like there's two of you why Why? Yeah. And it's also impossible, right? Like it's actually impossible. I think it's an impossible expectation back to that point of how we all just make ourselves sick because also the bar's so high. So it's not just that we've just all got to make it out of here alive. It's like, we've got to make it out of here, our best possible selves. And glowing and fake tans and all the things. I know, God, there's just so much expectation put on women. But I don't know why, I just feel like. Where does that come from? I just feel like we should put more expectation on men

and I think that there's, I think that, I can't remember who said it, some very smart woman said it, maybe it was Sheryl Sandberg or one of those types, said the most important choice a heterosexual woman can make is who she's going to have her kids with. Because if you do have your kids with somebody who isn't on that train, who isn't thinking that it's going to be a 50-50 or isn't thinking that sometimes it's going to be more them and sometimes it's going to be more you, then it is all going to be on your plate. I really, I'm shocked when I talk to some of my young colleagues and stuff

who maybe don't have kids yet but they do all the cleaning they do all the cooking and I'm like why like why but but I do think that like next generation below me are they Gen Y or Gen Z some of them just really love their Dyson vacuum cleaners well Well, that is true. That is so true. There's this fetishization of domesticity that I don't get. And that's, I should put that out there as like a disclaimer is that if you love it, like if you love homemaking and if you love, if it's always been your dream to be the kind of mom who does do everything from scratch and who is the primary care and who runs the home and all that stuff, then go hard. Like I'm all for whatever it is that rocks your clock. But in my experience, women don't generally end up carrying all of that load because it was their dream.

They end up carrying all of that load because the other person in the house won't fucking do it. And also, and then I also have a thing that I often say that if you are going to split things, sometimes we have to let go of our inner control freaks to do that. But there's a story I have told at show about how I delegated birthday parties to Brent often because I just hate, I hate it. And again, I know some women who love it, love organizing the big first birthday and the cake and the pinata and that's great. If you love it, you love it, but I hate it. And also I just feel like I don't have time. And I, so I remember a few, a couple of years ago, I said to Brent, it was Billy's birthday. I've got loads on. Can you just organize it? Just do it.

And bless him, he said, sure. And he sent out the invitations at school on his work letterhead. He got this piece of paper from his work letterhead and wrote on them, like, come to Billy's birthday party, photocopied it, put them in a work paper envelope, stuck them in Billy's bag and then I was just like oh my god but then I was also like no I've said that you do it no I've said you do it I can't sit around micromanaging this shit and then on the day I was like so what are we eating at this party and he's like sausages I'm like okay anything else he's like no so and I was like what about the

vegetarians he's like oh they can just have the bread roll and I'm like okay anything else he's like no so and I was like what about the vegetarians he's like oh they can just have the bread roll and I'm like okay what about the gluten freeze he's like oh they will have eaten before they came so it's like a sausage sizzle a bought cake in the park a few games that's it and it's like you what? Everyone had a good time. It was a bit embarrassing. Some of the moms laughed at me, but it got done. Billy enjoyed it. I just had to let go. Yeah. And that's the thing though, right? Because everyone sees that. I think there's something about the lowering of the expectations that is really powerful because some of the kids' birthday parties that are out there are insane. Oh, so much so.

And the amount of stuff that is placed on the, just the birthday parties, but it's like a microcosm, isn't it, really, for all of the expectations that we place on ourselves. And if we go big, then the next person feels they have to go bigger and it's ridiculous. That's right, Claire. So it was a gift to my social circle to have such a shit birthday party nailed it exactly Holly it freed them all up to have an

even shitter one perfect and that is what we all need to be a bit more shit and a bit our mediocrity is only a gift to other women. That's what I say. That's what I'm going for every day of the week. Exactly. Okay. So I wanted to change tack a little bit now. And we talk a lot on this show about inner critic and that inner voice. What's yours like, especially, I guess, with creativity, but what's yours like?

It's terrible. I haven't mastered her yet, even though, you know, I'm getting on in years. It's worse when you're writing. Like people always say, for me, it's worse when I'm writing. People always say, you know, how do you write? And oh, it must be like writing a book must be lovely. And I'm laughing because most of writing my last couple of books is at the time I was living in this tiny house so it was me sitting on my bed hiding from the family crying like just crying all the time like this is the worst thing anyone has ever written that's the fingers of my typing the banging um this is the worst thing anyone's ever written no one's gonna read this shit why would anybody read this shit god you're you're pathetic. Who do you think you are? Like all of those things.

I get to a point where I just have to ignore her and push through. And that's generally what I do. I've never been very good at kind of going, no, you know, she's wrong. You're amazing. I just kind of at the end, in the end of the day, I'm just like, I don't have time for this. I'll just push through. But again, in the same way the day, I'm just like, I don't have time for this. I'll just push through. But again, in the same way that I think that every woman thinks everyone else's house is clean and everyone else's relationship is perfect and everyone else has sorted out that third drawer down. I think that every writer or every creative or anyone who's got a big dream, a big project thinks that everybody else is doing it right.

And actually, when you talk to, I everybody else is doing it right. And actually, when you talk to, I mean, my sphere, obviously, in writing, when you talk to other writers and other authors, they're all doubting. I mean, I'm sure there are probably big, famous white males, maybe, I don't know, who are just like, oh, my God, this is pouring out of me. I'm just incredible. Like every word is like, oh, it's like pearls falling from my fingertips like I'm sure somebody thinks that I've never met a female author who admits to thinking that maybe that's the other thing so I think yeah I definitely suffer from an inner critic and still that like imposter syndrome if you want to call it that, still that self-confidence crisis, even now after, I mean, book writing is relatively new to me and I think it's probably fair enough

for me to have imposter syndrome because there are lots of really good authors out there. But in other areas of my career, I've been doing it for 20 odd years, you know, and I shouldn't have, I should have a lot of confidence, but I still find confidence a hard thing to grab onto even after all this time do you think it's worse for women I think it is but I also think maybe we admit it more because I know men you know I know plenty of men who struggle with confidence but I don't know I think I think think often when I think about myself and also a lot of the women I know and work with, we put so much expectation and pressure on ourselves to be perfect at everything. It feels like the stakes are really high in a way that you don't sometimes get that sense with successful men that you know, who just seem to be kind of like, well, you know,

I did my best and if you don't like it, that it that's your problem kind of thing or like if I can't do that then that's your problem and maybe it's because our seats at the table whatever tables those are they still feel so new and tenuous and in lots of male dominated professions they literally are tenuous that we put such high expectations on ourselves. We feel the stakes are genuinely higher because if we can't do it is there a sneaky suspicion that it's because we're a woman or something. Yeah and is that what people will say? Or she's a mum you know. Yeah oh I know. Do you find that as a parent you've felt like there's been a shift in expectation from you or lowering the expectations

of you being a mum? Yes, but I remember when I very first became a mum, I was really fighting against that in a way that probably wasn't healthy. Like I always think there should be a female equivalent of the word macho I don't think there is one is there then we need to invent one we do femcho or something yeah exactly I was being super femo in that I was I remember going back to work after both my kids I went back to work after six months, magazine, deadlines, late nights.

And I was broken and exhausted, but I was determined not to show it because I didn't want people to think. I was the same when I was pregnant, actually. I didn't want people to be able to be like, oh, now she doesn't care about her job anymore. Now she's a mom. She doesn't care about her job anymore. Now she's having a baby. I hate that idea. And in my experience, and I work with lots of women, and I manage lots of women, and I hire women and all those things. It is not my experience at all that women care less about their jobs when they've had children. In fact, it's often the opposite.

I think that for a lot of women, I mean, their practical priorities shift, and that is a real thing that has to be taken into consideration without question. But in my experience, often when women have children, if they're leaving their house to go to work, they want it to matter. They want it to be important. They will try really fucking hard to do their best because this is precious time. You know, this is precious time that you are not being maybe with the person you want to be with and you've got to put food on the table. The stakes are high there. So I think that in my early days of motherhood, I was a bit obsessed with trying not to show

any weakness. And if I had to leave early because of the baby or, you know, that awful period when your child goes to childcare and they get sick all the time and you're getting calls all the time and you just feel like you're failing everybody. I was probably unhealthily obsessed with trying not to let it make myself seem weak or something. I don't know. It's really stupid. Now I always tell young women I know who are coming back to work after babies and they're going to, putting their babies in childcare. I'm like, you'll think this is impossible and you know what it is, but you'll

do it anyway because everybody does. But you're not imagining that it's really hard. It's really, really, really hard, you know? Yeah. And isn't that validating just sometimes all you need is someone to say that, that what you're doing is really hard. That's why you're finding it hard. Yeah, it is really hard. I mean, look at you, you've got a one-year-old, like it's, it's really, really hard. And great and wonderful, but yeah, it totally is. Yeah. And I, I do think it is tricky in so many ways to balance all of this stuff. I am so interested because you've been in mags and in the media for quite a while. What do you see the representation of women? What do you see in that trajectory

from when you started working in this space to now? It's so much better, like so much better. And the thing is, I don't think I even realized how bad it was. You know, what's really interesting for me at the moment is watching the kind of reckoning with how we've dealt with high profile celebrity women, because I used to work in gossip magazines. Anyone who listens to Mom Mirror Out Loud and stuff would know that I worked for quite a long time in gossip magazines. And now that's like a dirty, dirty secret that I did that. But at the time it was great fun and people would be like, oh, my God, that must be the best job in the world.

Anyway, so I lived and worked through, for example, the Britney Spears breakdown years, you know, Lindsay Lohan falling out of taxis, whatever, like we were brutal to those women, like we were. And these were women working in magazines, writing headlines about these women. And when I think about that now, kind of mortified, as I should be, but also it occurs to me how it's like that thing about the fish who's in water doesn't realize they're in water because it's all around them and it's like that thing about the fish who's in water doesn't realize they're in water because it's all around them and it's all they know, right? And now watching these kind of reckonings around, like, look at the way we treated Britney Spears.

Look at the way we treated Princess Diana. Look at the way, like, you're like, it's really interesting. And it's like, of course, it's like all these lights are coming on and then in a broader way women in general I just I'm so happy that we're representing a much broader more diverse spectrum of womanhood in all ways I don't only necessarily mean that when we say diversity I don't only necessarily mean that in the differences of backgrounds although obviously that's a really important part of it, but just that there is no wrong way to be a woman. I just find it so encouraging. We're not there yet. We're not all the way there yet, but there's so much less judgment around the way that we talk about other women or we check ourselves for doing it, which I think is really important, is that sometimes because internalised misogyny means that you're always,

sometimes because you feel like you're always judged, you're always judging. And I think we should admit that at some points, is that high-profile women get such a hard ride a lot of the time because they're being judged by other women who are feeling insecure in themselves. And I think that we can admit those things, but at least now we know that, you know what I mean? Like now we know that. We question the way we respond to other women and how we respond to the way the media reports

on women. And we question all that stuff. It's so much better. It's so interesting. I was fascinated by that article you wrote about women in the 90s, living through that period, you know, know Rachel from Friends even Ally McBeal and Deborah Messing you know from Will and Grace and I idolized those women and their body types oh my goodness yeah and didn't I and can you explain a bit more about what that article talked about so I wrote a story about the period of time in the in the 90s and noughties, early noughties, when there was only one acceptable shape to be on TV or to be an it girl or to be, but particularly in those real big TV shows of the time, Friends and Ally McBeal and those things, as you mentioned.

And that was to be so thin, you could barely stand up. Now, it's always very problematic, of course, to talk about women's weight and appearance, and I know that there's a very big school of thought that you just shouldn't do it. But to not admit that those women were not healthy, were not, it wasn't a coincidence or an accident or some kind of strange moment in time that all these women who were in high profile positions on the television just happened to be so naturally thin.

Like that was kind of the collective delusion we were supposed to be under that it wasn't, that it was somehow just a coincidence that all those women on the Emmy's red carpet were a size zero. It wasn't the case. And now nearly all of those women have spoken out about how they were starving themselves, how the pressure to be skinny was unbelievable, how it came mostly from male executives, and then it became like a competition between them. It's so scary because it can happen. It happens now. Now there's a different kind of aesthetic that we're supposed to like,

but it possibly isn't as deadly as that one. But it's just kind of, it's just really interesting to remember that. It's like some, it's, you know, movie stars aren't all beautiful because beautiful people are better actors. You know, it's not, that's not the truth. You've got to look at what's going on and what's being sold to us and all those things with a critical eye. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head then too that it's not an accident too that women are

looking in that particular aesthetic. It's not just a genetic lottery. It's also they've put an incredible amount of work in to look that particular way as well. And we don't necessarily, especially in the 90s, no one was talking about the kind of regimes in a real way, about what they actually had to do, like have a treadmill in their dressing room and at home and basically be working out every minute of the day they weren't acting in order to stay that particular

you know size it's funny because it's crazy that women's bodies are a fashion but they are um now when you watch if you watch that a particular era of friends or say desperate housewives or it's actually shocking how thin those women are and I don't mean that in any pejorative way about thinness, which, you know, it's just a fact. It's actually shocking. You know, children aren't that skinny. It's just why were we so desperate for these women to almost disappear in order to appear hot?

Like it's just quite strange. And I think that, you know, Jennifer Aniston's spoken really openly about at times she's too savvy for that now about the fact that her big break came when she lost weight her agent said to her mate you're going to all these auditions but until you and it's just oh anyway it's crazy where are where are you at with all of that stuff with the beauty body image stuff? Well, I'd be lying if I said I was completely comfortable. I am aging, you know, so I, I very, my obsession at the moment is trying to find women in the public eye whose face I can relate to. I don't know. That's a trotty thing to say, but aging is a shameful

thing for women to do. Sometimes it feels like you look around at high profile. Again, I know we're talking about celebrities a lot, but I love talking about celebrities. And I think they're a mirror to a lot of all of our aspirations. They say a lot about us, who's particularly aspirational at any point in time. But at the moment we're seeing all these reboots of all these classic shows, right?

So we're seeing up close and personal the faces of all these women who we saw, we last saw up close and personal 20 years ago. So Friends reunion, Sex and the City reboot. It comes with all this judgment about what they have or haven't done to their faces. And I am struggling with it a lot. Like I struggle with, I mean, obviously I believe you should do whatever the hell you want to your face, like go hard.

But again, it's not a coincidence or an accident that the women that we're putting up there as having aged well, it means that they haven't aged or not so you can tell. And then the other thing I think is really strange and we'll probably look back on with some weirdness is that we're asking women to try and erase the age and experience from their face. It doesn't make them look younger. It just makes them all look a particular way that we've decided is better than looking older. You know what I mean? Like, and I just, I think that's really weird. So I wrestle with that a lot.

And then it's funny because I've always been, and I am very anti-diet and very weight positive, but as I, I mean, body positive, but as I get older, like there was a period where my doctor said to me, I think you should lose some weight. So I've re-embraced exercise and stuff in the last year. And I have to say, I've really enjoyed that. Like it's been good. So again, I try and focus very much on how it makes me feel rather than thinking I've got to lose, you know, or whatever. Like it's just so tiresome. Otherwise it's just a battle you're never going to win. No, exactly. Because wouldn't it be great if we could just feel good about what our bodies can do rather than what they look like

and in the ageing, which is a terrible word to use, ageing, but in the ageing process, can't we be happy with the fact that we are healthy and appear healthy but then obviously that's fraught too, like what is healthy? But, you know, and ageing well in that way rather than trying to focus on the lines and the, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean? It makes me so sad too. I love Sex and the City and watching the images coming up of the reboot, I've got a little flame of hope that it will be good even though. No, no, it won't. It won't. But I've still got a flame of hope that it might be good even though I know it won't but I've still got a flame of hope

that it might be I'm the same I'm like I've been cranky about it because I think the second movie was an aberration and I'm like why do they keep messing with this one I mean I know it was problematic I know that you know there are lots of things wrong with Sex and the City but it was a groundbreaking show for women without question a a seminal show for women. And it annoys me that they keep messing with it, but at the same time, I can't look away. I know, me too. And I do feel like Cynthia Nixon is now the person I want to be at that point. You know, I just think she looks so cool and her hair's kind of gray. And I mean, she still looks incredible. I just feel like she

looks grounded and that to me is what's so wonderful about seeing older women who look more like the age they should be well and I think and again I don't want to say make sound this with any judgment because I think whatever you decide to do to yourself your face your hair your body like the thing that that people are drawn to and that makes me think, wow, she's a powerful person. And I don't just mean powerful in that maybe she's rich and has power over people. I mean, you know, a force of power. People who look like they're comfortable in who they are. And it's hard to look comfortable in who you are when you're very clearly afraid, you know, and really like we are, women are afraid of aging because, and it's not our fault.

Again, it's the water that we're swimming in. We're told that we're irrelevant once we're over a certain age. We're worried about getting jobs, getting, being desirable, but also just being relevant and interesting and not being consigned to you know a has-been bucket what I don't and I don't mean that for actresses I mean any of us like just people not listening to you anymore the invisibility we are afraid of it and that's why we spend shit loads of money on serums and that's why we do all the things that we do it's because we're like we're kind of trying to hold on to remaining relevant, whereas actually there's something

very powerful about being I'm not afraid. Like this is who I am and I have lived these years and I have learnt these things. So I aspire to be that but I'm not there yet. Look, we can't all be perfect, Holly. If we've talked about nothing else, it's that. I know. But I believe you can be, definitely.

You are that for me. Thanks, Claire. You're welcome, mate. So on that depressing note, I thought we'd quickly touch on your favourite movie that you said you wanted to talk about, which is also one of my favourite movies, When Harry Met Sally. I know. It's probably not the most original choice, but it is my favourite film.

Why? Why is it your favourite? No, it's probably not the most original choice, but it is my favourite film. Oh, why? Why is it your favourite? I think it's my favourite film for several reasons. All right, so again, disclaimer, there are problematic elements with When Harry Met Sally. I'm sure we will talk about them in a minute. But as a piece of art, as a screenplay, it's pretty much perfect. In terms of how it's scripted, the way the plot unfolds.

It's funny. The kind of art, in inverted commas, that I love the most, and even more so now actually, is it's funny and clever, but it's also kind of light and hopeful. Like it's not, it doesn't have to convince you of its cleverness by being endlessly dark. It's a brilliant movie. And the other reason I love it is that

when I first discovered that movie a very long time ago, me and my best friend who still lives in England, who I love so much, we used to watch it together all the time on like Sunday afternoons. It was raining, it was cold. We know it word for word. I know it word for word. She would know it word for word. And we just, it's become like a bonding. It's a very bonding movie. If I'm sad, if I'm upset, if I'm in a bad mood, if I'm homesick, it's the movie I watch to make me feel

good. And I will never get over the perfection of the script Nora Epfron who wrote it is one of my favorite writers and the scene my favorite scene in the movie is where Harry is telling his best friend that his wife left him and they're at a football game and every time in between every like statement of like you know and then she told me she was leaving they have to stand up and do a Mexican wave yeah like they stand up and put their arms there it's just perfect it's that perfect mix of they're dealing with something quite serious there are real issues in that movie in a way about friendship and love and aging and lust and all those things and sexual politics of course but it's funny it's funny

I love it is and it still holds up I mean look I love it and New York City that's the that's the other thing which is not that I mean my god I haven't been to New York City for 100 years but like I love looking at it oh I do too it's my happy place I've never even been there but I love a specific like kind of aesthetic of movie set in New York City it just feels very comforting happy place for sure exactly so I'll read a little bit about it just just for people who haven't seen it I'm sure most people have it anyway so yeah it was created in 1989 written by Nora Nora Ephron, who we love, and directed by Rob Rayner, and stars Billy Crystal as Harry and Meg Ryan as Sally. The story follows the title characters from the time they meet in

Chicago just before sharing a cross-country drive through 12 years of chance encounters in New York City. And I didn't know this, so the origin of the film was derived from Rainer's return to single life after a divorce. And Efron conducted an interview with Rainer, which kind of provided the basis for Harry. And Sally was based on Efron and conversations she has with her friends. So the soundtrack, which I love, is by Harry Connick Jr.

with a big band and orchestra, which also adds so much to it. What I also thought was really interesting about it was, as you said, it's about love, sex, relationships and friendships and comedy. And that's it. They really decided. They didn't make it about anything else. And Nora Ephron said in an interview that was really deliberate, they just wanted it to be about the conversations. They didn't want it to be, I don't know, you know,

like my best friend's wedding where there's a plot point about, you know, someone getting married and shouldn't be, you know. It's so true. It's actually very simple. That's a really good point because I think that's another reason why I like it is it's a very simple. That's a really good point because I think that's another reason why I like it is it's a very simple film. It doesn't try and do too many things and it knows what it is. And the thing is too is that if you watch it now,

you'd probably think, oh, it's not very original, but you have to remember it was the first one. That movie then spawned a whole load of movies that would quite like it. So that sort of device they have of interspersing the sort of scenes with little interviews with supposedly real people about how they met I love that about it when it's like he rode up nine extra floors just to talk to me or like we grew up next door to each other but we didn't know and then we met again 30 years later and all those things like I love all that and lots of other rom-coms

after it tried to do it it's the perfect rom-com without question and it's just it's so funny though because the whole way it was marketed at the time and the whole premise of it is can men and women be friends and now it seems like such a stupid question don't you think because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her. So you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive? No, you pretty much want to nail them too. What if they don't want to have sex with you?

Doesn't matter, because the sex thing is already out there, so the friendship is ultimately doomed, and that is the end of the story. Well, I guess we're not going to be friends then. Guess not. That's too bad. Yes. Absolutely. I mean, it was a stupid question then, really, but it's like,

well, of course they can. Yes. Exactly. End of movie. Yes, exactly. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because at the time it was so revolutionary. And I guess Raina said in an interview, one of the reasons it was revolutionary is because they

wanted to expose what men and women really felt and really thought about each other, right? And I think that that is what's interesting and was so fresh at that time, which now seems like after Sex and the City and Girls and all the films that we have, right, it seems funny that that was the drawcard for it. But there wasn't a blueprint before that, right? No, and I think you have to remember that the dominant narrative was so hetero and so white bread that I think that seemed like a really legitimate question to ask.

Yes, exactly. Yeah, well, even just the scene where Meg Ryan does the fake orgasm and says, I'll have what she's having. I mean, the idea that women would fake orgasms at that point was new, right? I know. It wasn't, which is so funny now when, like, I was watching Starstruck on the ABC, which is just glorious. Isn't it great?

It's so great. But, I mean, in that it's like a light sort of fun rom-com. But they talk about period sex and like really quite explicit things. So you think how far have we come? We have come far because that's so true is that I love that show too and I reckon one of the reasons I love that show is it's, again, it's clever but it's light. It's clever but it's not trying to solve all the world's problems.

It's just saying this is interesting. People are fascinating. People are fascinating. Their relationships are fascinating. I think that's the only thing that shifted for me and when, well, there's a couple of things that shifted for me when Harry met Sally because I still do watch it if i'm sad brent my partner he always knows like if i'm appearing a bit grumpy he'll be like do you want to watch when harry met

sally i'm like oh bless you but anyway now when you watch it it feels like and i don't think i noticed this at the time that sally there's always a key of desperation in sally that she she always wanted the relationship to be more. I don't think I got that at the time. I think that they both thought they were friends and then it developed into something else. But kind of when you watch it back with a bit more knowledge and you're like, oh, it still plays into that idea

that the man does the picking, you know, that she's waiting for him to say I do love you actually you are my person you know yeah and I think the other thing I noticed when I re-watched it I mean I re-watch it very regularly I'm happy to hear that yeah but with this lens on what I noticed was that Sally is often the one listening while Harry gets to be funny and really smart and cracks the gags. And Billy Crystal, I mean, why wouldn't you? He's brilliant.

But Meg Ryan is also brilliant and such a great comedic actor and I do think when you actually look at how many words she has in scenes, it very much is a platform for him to be hilarious and then for her to respond to his hilariousness. It's true. Although she gets some good lines, but that is true. There's the wonderful bit in it where she blows up at him when they're outside their best friend's house when they've just moved in together and there's the wagon wheel coffee table and then they have a big row and Sally's just like calls him out, calls him out for all his crap and it's brilliant because you're like, yes,

this is what she should have said and, you know, and he is a dickhead and we shouldn't have said that. But you're right, a lot of the time she is just kind of providing the straight man role. But then again, like again, because I know it so well, there are scenes in that film that they just can make me laugh just thinking about them like the when they're walking through central park and it's the leaves are changing and it's just the

classic thing and they're talking about their sexual fantasies and she just says this faceless man rips off my clothes and he's like and then what she's like, that's it. My retelling of it is not funny, but like it is so funny. And he's like, a faceless man rips off your clothes and that's the sex dream you've been having since you're young. And she's like, yep, sometimes I vary a little in what I'm wearing. It's just funny. It's just funny. And you know what else I remember thinking is that after that movie,

it tipped into the noughties rom-coms like the Cameron Diaz kind of era of rom-coms suddenly the women were very overtly sexualized in all those films and I don't have a problem with that really like I'm you know but Sally at least is allowed to wear clothes like she has a job um you. She owns her own apartment. She wears a lot of turtlenecks and heavy tights. And hats. She wears a lot of hats. Many, many hats.

And, you know, it's kind of we're grateful for small things when you're looking at movies from that era. My God. That's exactly right. I do like Sleepless in Seattle but it's nowhere near as good. When Harry Met Sally is the gold standard. Exactly. Because I think, and that's also bringing it back to what I love

about I Give My Marriage a Year, it's the back and forth between the two characters that makes it special because that is the stuff of life, right? That's it. And that's what's so fascinating. It's that chemistry and those conversations in the ordinary day when nothing much else has happened other than you have to, I don't know, get the groceries or pick up your kids or do whatever you need to do. But when you see it and it feels real and true and funny or interesting or heartbreaking, I don't need big plot points then, you know. I don't need big, big disastrous things to happen.

You know, it's funny you should say that because when I handed in the manuscript, the first version of the manuscript for I Give My Marriage a Year, I'd put in like two other plot lines in there that I thought, when I was writing it, going back to the thing about self-doubt we were talking about before, when I was writing I Give My Marriage a Year, and it was getting longer and longer, it's quite a long book, I really doubted whether these two, this story, just these two people's story was maybe interesting enough to sustain a whole novel and so I we I had two other plot lines in there that were quite dramatic and a bit weird and my publisher who's amazing woman called Kate she said her first feedback to me about that it's always very daunting

getting your feedback on your manuscript but she said get rid of those plots and I was like really like isn't it really boring without them and she said to me have the confidence that people are going to be invested enough in these two people and their relationship to carry the book because if they're not then the book's a failure anyway you know what I mean like you're not going to suddenly this tricksy thing over here with this plot line and this tricksy thing over here with this plot line is not going to be enough to save the fact that they don't care about these people if they don't care about these people. And she was right. So I took them out and I reworked the book. And that was really true is it was like, if you don't, if you've got to get that relationship right,

or nobody cares. And so you're right is that if that is the stuff that matters, the back and forth, that the tiny dramas of our own real lives, like that stuff is really interesting. You've got to lean into making sure you recognize that that is the stuff that matters. Well, thank you so much, Holly, for making us see the stuff that matters, you know, because I think so many women see themselves reflected in your writing and it means a lot to a lot of people, I know. So thank you for your work. Oh, thank you so much. And thank you for asking me to come on. It's been the most fun I've had in ages. It's been the most fun I've had in ages too. I have not left the house.

We're all like isolated. This is the kind of stuff we need to do. I know. I put lipstick on as well. I mean, I haven't done that for a while. It's worn off for a while, but I was like, yes, we're having a proper conversation. We need lipstick.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Holly. Thank you, Claire. You're welcome. All right, you've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with Holly Wainwright. You can visit her website, hollywainwright.com, for all her writing, books, and her podcast,

including Mamma Mia Out Loud and This Glorious Mess. And go and buy one of her books from Booktopia or all good bookstores. They're brilliant and you won't regret it. All right, for more from me, you can go to claireonte.com where all my writing and podcasts are. And I like to tell stories over on Instagram at claretonte occasionally. So that's me over there. And if you would like to contact the show, I would love you to at tonspod at gmail.com, just like Rose has. Now Rose has some big feelings about The Little Mermaid, which we've talked about in my episode with Jamila Rizvi and also with my episode with the

comedian Jess Perkins. And I loved Rose's email. So here she is, Rose, and I'm just going to read it out to you. I thought this was so interesting. Hey, Claire, I recently listened to your new episode with Jess Perkins. And while, of course, I loved it, I got to say, I disagree about The Little Mermaid. I used to have the same opinion but I've recently listened to some really interesting points and reinterpretations that I thought you might like, both of which come from queer women by the way, which don't we love. Firstly, the prince isn't actually the main motivation for Ariel. It's that she's a huge nerd. She feels stifled by her controlling father and wants to live in and study the human world. Her big I want song happens before she even sees the prince.

She wants to stand up tall and live her own life. Secondly, even when she does get a crush on the prince, that's not what makes her leave. It's that her father in a violent rage destroys her things in an attempt to get back control over her. It's more applicable to escaping abuse than it is chasing a boy. The prince is just her way out, and then she gets taken advantage of by Ursula. Lastly, I feel her voice is much more representative of other people's expectations of her. People don't like her voice because she uses it to express herself. They like it because she's a pretty singer. That is actually really true.

You're shifting my whole worldview, Rose. This is mind-blowing. Anyway, at first, the prince falls in love with the singing and the idea of Ariel, but without the voice, he falls for the real her, the weird nerd. I still think the Little Mermaid can be criticized as part of problematic patterns, like being skinny, pretty white girl who's happy ending his marriage. But ironically, a lot of pop feminism takes actually reduce and invalidate her as a character.

Anyway, love you, love the podcast. Don't know why I care so much about this film, but I just thought you might be interested in my take. Kind regards, Rose from the UK. Rose, I totally agree with you. You've like really restored my faith in the whole show and the movie. So thank you. And don't we all love weird nerds?

I'm one of those. So yeah, you can write in just like Rose has to tauntspot.gmail.com. And that's it for this week. Big love to you. As always, thank you to Aurore Collings for editing this episode and I'll talk to you soon. Bye.