TONTS. - Inherited Memories with Siân Darling

Episode Date: May 13, 2022

It is clear to me that my guest today Siân Darling who is also a dear friend and the partner of my dad’s cousin Paul Kelly, has lived a life impacted by the stories and memories of her families past. She is a little bit magic, deeply feeling, highly creative, a champion of people who make things, of artists and musicians. Siân was also a little girl who spent much of her childhood on her own in the bush with her dog noticing the tiny but really huge parts of our existence on this planet. She shares fragments of her family’s story in this interview and I wanted to give you a little context here too.  Siân Darling’s grandfather was an opera singer, a kickboxer and a diplomat. One morning he went in search of food. When he returned his wife and and six year old son had been taken, later confirmed murdered. There is a song called The Partisan that is one of her favourite songs. When she hears it she sees them running through a dark forest towards a spark of their living legacy Siân herself. Her family’s life was forever changed by the events of the Holocaust and it is clear that Sian’s work now as an advocate, curator, film maker and producer is informed by her family’s jewish heritage and the shared trauma of the 11 million lost.  Siân is co-Chair of human rights media organisation, Right Now Inc. , an ambassador for Groundswell and also the founder of the museum of Inherited Memories that curates exhibitions and events in response to inherited memories of cultural survival, inspired by Holocaust memorial and the value of 'never again'. The Museum supports curators to work with contemporary artists to unravel and understand the layers of stories from collective memories to inform a more empathetic reality.Siân is also manages esteemed Australian songwriters Paul Kelly  Kev Carmody and Jess Hitchcock. In 2020, she produced the charting Kev Carmody tribute album, Cannot Buy My Soul (2020 Edition), released by EMI. The album features 42 songs of Aboriginal truth-telling sung by some of Australia's greatest musicians. Siân has also created both in 2021 and very recently in 2022 two concerts Uprising: Songs of Resistance and Songs and Survival boasting a powerful line-up of performers uniting against racism & antisemitism.For more from Claire you can head to www.clairetonti.com or @clairetonti on instagramYou can email the show at [e-mail] credits:Editing - RAW Collings and Claire TontiTheme music - Avocado Junkie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, this is Tons, a podcast of in-depth interviews about emotions and the way they shape our lives. I'm your host, Claire Tonti, and I'm just so glad you're here. Each week I speak to writers, activists, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans about their stories. Have you ever felt tiny and huge all at once? Like one bead on a necklace strung with beads full of people that have gone both before you and also those that will go ahead of you. Their love, their joy, their trauma, lodged somewhere in your genetic memory. My paternal great-grandmother was an opera singer, and as strange as this might sound, as I never met her, I sometimes feel her presence in my bones.

I feel my great-grandmother, or Nonna, as she was known in our family, strongest when I walk the streets of Melbourne and sit in the grand theatres where she once worked and sang. I love to sit in the seats and look at the ceiling. They're usually soaring and really intricate, and it makes me think about her sitting in those same seats, looking up at that same ornate ceiling. I feel my maternal grandmother Lorna, who was an actress, any time I'm on stage. It feels like home to me. The smell, the boards, the air, the sound of audiences shuffling and laughing in their seats. The sweaty, crowded dressing rooms backstage, the chalky makeup, the fear and restless energy.

It's always felt so familiar, never foreign, always like home. This idea of inherited memory and by extension intergenerational trauma that can be passed down through our DNA, not just the stories we tell, has always rung very true for me. It's clear to me that my guest today, Sian Darling, who is also a dear friend and the partner of my dad's cousin, Paul Kelly, has lived a life impacted by the stories and memories of her family's past. She's a little bit magic, deeply feeling, highly creative, a champion of people who make things, of artists and musicians, and an advocate for survivors of trauma. Sian was also a little girl who spent much of her childhood on her own in the bush with her

dog, noticing the tiny but really huge parts of our existence on this planet. She shares fragments of her family story in this interview, and I wanted to give you a little context here too. Sian Darling's grandfather was an opera singer, a kickboxer and a diplomat. One morning he went in search of food. When he returned, his wife and six-year-old son had been taken, later confirmed murdered. There is a song called The Partisan that is one of Sian's favourite songs. When she hears it sung, she sees them running through a dark forest towards a spark of their living legacy. That's Sian's favourite songs. When she hears it sung, she sees them running through a dark forest towards a spark of their living legacy.

That's Sian herself. Her family's life was forever changed by the events of the Holocaust, and it is clear that Sian's work now, as an advocate, curator, filmmaker and producer, is informed by her family's Jewish heritage and the shared trauma of the 11 million lost. A little bit more about Sian. She is co-chair of human rights media organisation Right Now Inc, an ambassador for Groundswell and also the founder of the Museum of Inherited Memories that curates exhibitions and events in response to inherited memories of cultural survival,

inspired by Holocaust memorial and the value of the phrase, never again. The museum supports curators to work with contemporary artists to unravel and understand the layers of stories from collective memories to inform a more empathetic reality. Sian also manages incredible artists and songwriters, Paul Kelly himself, Kev Carmody and Jess Hitchcock. In 2020, she produced the charting Kev Carmody tribute album Cannot Buy My Soul, released by EMI.

The album features 42 songs of Aboriginal truth-telling sung by some of Australia's greatest musicians. It's beautiful. I love it so much. I have it on vinyl. You can also find the songs on Spotify. That Kev's way of storytelling about his past, his future, his connection to spirit, to land and his people, I think tells a broader narrative of the experiences of First Nations people living in different communities. Sian has also created both in 2021 and very recently in 2022, these incredible concerts called Uprising Songs of Resistance and Songs of Survival. They boast powerful lineups of performers uniting against racism and anti-Semitism.

Okay, off we go. Here she is, Sian Darling. Hello, Sian. How are you? Hello, darling. I am good, thanks. That is good. We had a little bit of tech issues, but I think we're going to persevere. And that's kind of reminiscent of life in general at the moment. We're all persevering, I think. Yeah. So, Sian, I guess I wanted to start by asking you about womanhood and what that means in your life. I could start by a perception I had of womanhood before I actually got there,

which was that women need to be sweet, soft, strong, smart, sexy, humble, not too much, not too little, keep everyone else comfortable. And I can't pinpoint exactly what fed that belief. It wasn't a conscious belief, you know, as a teenager, but it was certainly what was emulated by myself as a teenager and by the people around me. And it was affirmed by the reaction that we got from the people around us too. And I think that womanhood is sisterhood as well. It's finding the people who you can trust, who you can lean on, whose moral compass you want to be guided by. Yeah, finding the people who are in your corner, I believe is a really vital part of womanhood. Yeah. Do you think it's particularly important to find other women to enact that sisterhood? Humans want to connect. We want to feel found and with a sense of belonging

and purpose and being safe in the process of that, having some kind of anchoring gives one more freedom to do that. So if I know that I'm safe with certain people, I'm free to go wild because they will, not just safe that they'll accept me or not exploit me, safe that they'll rein me in if need be as well. I think that's really important. When you say the word wild, what does that mean? Wild is an expression of oneself, you know, the essence of oneself. It's not necessarily becoming wild with nature or the natural world, but we are, we do constitute nature. We're a small part of it. So going wild, being wild, going wild is,

being wild or feeling wild is to be free of the feeling of self-consciousness. It's certainly not being self-consciously wild. It's being free to follow the impulses and impetuous expressions that one might have. Do you find that you're different at different times in your cycle in womanhood too? Oh, yes. And there's always the warning signs of an insatiable appetite

a sort of impulse to fuck or fight um but um and learning to just not really respond to every impulse to not be adjusting my sails to flow with every impulse. It's really being aware of a pattern. And, you know, we are a small part of nature and nature is a big part of us. So the patterns that I see in nature, there are patterns in my own nature, there are patterns in me

and certainly they're presented throughout my cycle. Something I've really had to learn is when to cocoon myself when I'm on empty. I don't want to be making decisions or having interactions when I'm feeling emotionally wrought and exhausted. I just feel that nothing good can come from there. Sometimes I do need to cocoon in the doona and respond to essential things, but really not stretch myself beyond what's essential. I think that's huge learning. I've found that too. We don't have to be the same every day and to not beat ourselves up for being that super

woman that we kind of, I find I end up being after I get my period. You know, I can come into this, it's like coming back into yourself. And for a long time when I was younger, I felt like for the rest of the month, why am I not that woman? Why am I this other woman? Why am I needing to cocoon? Why am I tortured? Why am I miserable? What is wrong with me that I can't hold onto to that energy crest, you know, that after you get your period and you're sort of building again and it's getting to know yourself really at the heart of it, isn't it? Yeah, and learning to read the patterns, the patterns around us,

the patterns within us. I think that's a really essential skill to make life a bit easier for ourselves to give us the tools to be more gentle and accommodate the wild, keep ourselves safe from the wild. Did someone teach you that? Did you read about that? Or was that something you innately felt as someone who's interested in patterns? I think I just, through my own observation really see patterns from the smallest particle on this planet to deciphering the patterns in my own imprints and my own behaviours.

I think of a very beautiful friend I have, one of my favourite people in this whole world, Alan Pigram. He's a Kimberley man, Yaru man in Broome. And I feel that watching the way he interacts with the world, the world around him, his philosophies on the wider world, I don't recall if he ever said anything about patterns, but I think that made an impression on me. I feel like I started to conceive the notions of patterns then as well. Is there a particular pattern that you see we need to address? Yeah, or in a pattern of ignoring the answers to these problems that are getting harder and

harder to ignore. I'm talking about the climate crisis problems. So the answers of more forests, they take a long time to build though, and we're knocking them down at a higher rate. So sea forests hold a lot of answers. And in the true pattern and precedent of human impulse, turning to agriculture and commercialisation of such things is the pattern. So if we can capture those concepts and those answers that were given to us if we observe in the natural world.

So by cultivating sea forests, culp forests, there is this really strong chance of mitigating climate damage. So it's learning what you care about, where your values are, and even if your value is profit and power, looking into investing in carbon capturing and mitigating climate change is probably in your best interest. It totally is, right? Completely. What I find so interesting about all of this, and maybe this is a very long bow to draw, right? But the lessons that I'm learning as I get older in my cycle about rest, invest in myself, slow down, then when I'm ready,

bring that to fruition, plant seeds of one of a better analogy but get going you know when I've got the energy to and then leaning into reaping that and then resting again that whole cyclical way of being is so obviously what the planet in itself needs right like yeah at resting that investing that caring and nurturing. And not to say that every woman is also the planet, but right, we're all part of it. We're all connected. There's so much to be learned in that constant going forwards in a way that is gentler and kinder to ourselves. And you know what, Sian, we should just take over the world. We'll just run it according to Sian and Claire

and then everything will be fine. You know, nothing could go wrong at all. There are a few others I'd want to rope into that. My amazing friends at Groundswell, they've got a lot of things figured out. Claire Herschel and Ariel Gamble, Anna Rose. Yeah, yeah. I trust themble, Anna Rose. Yeah. I trust them to run the world.

Yeah. Along with us, not excluding you. Of course. At all. There's something in Jewish law that every seven years is a time of rest for agriculture, for agricultural spaces. It's a time of, so every seven years the earth has to be rested, which means that agricultural production is paused.

All of the stores of food are distributed amongst anyone who will need it, so it's social equity, equality, and the land is given rest, agricultural rest, and I find that really beautiful. And I thought of that when you were speaking about the cycles within us. Yeah. And what I was saying before about, you know, protecting yourself and cocooning, finding that time to cocoon, and sometimes

when we do jam a lot into our lives, it's so important to schedule rest. I found the other night I had so much on my mind and I just wasn't thinking clearly. I was agitated. I wasn't proud of the way I was responding to the thoughts. So I said, I need to rest. And it felt the things I was trying to work out felt urgent, but nothing good was going to happen the way I was feeling.

I needed to sleep. I needed a rest. Turns out I didn't sleep that well for the next two nights because I had these things on my mind. But that's just, that is a fault of mine and I need to practice getting better. I'm sort of practice what I'm preaching here. I found a way to work it out. I need to really just keep practicing. I implement it and it doesn't work, but I believe in it. I'm going to keep going with it. I think that's really wise. I totally agree. I think it's much easier said than done and weirdly I find rest much harder

than the other bits, you know, which is kind of indicative, right, which is probably indicative of the pattern of human beings and the way we treat the planet, much harder to rest, to take that pause. Thank you for sharing that Jewish tradition too. Does that have a word, the seven year cycle? So the Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar. So it goes with the moon and it's also based on the agricultural seasons of Israel, which is the ancestral homeland of Jewish people. So it's called Shemitah.

So every seven years, which is called Shemitah, S-H-M-I-T-A, the law commands a reset and it means how we interact with the lands and waters, the wildlife and with each other. So it says that agricultural lands are left to rest, private lands are opened to the public, food stores and perennial harvests are freely accessible to everyone, and all personal debts are forgiven. So giving our lands and waters a rest from human exploitation is essential. I got this concept, you know, from Jewish law, but it resonates and I feel it makes such sense with the way my body lives in this world also.

It certainly needs rest and it needs to be scheduled. So, you know, is that every seven days for me or is it every 27 days for me? By having some structure there, it can all really be a great guidance. And I suppose the wild, you know, to answer your question before about the wild is what we'll do, you know, what we do if we're not, if we don't have the structures to guide us. So monogamy can be a really great structure to protect the family unit. Some families find monogamy doesn't achieve that, but for the majority I'm speaking of. And then Shemitah, every seven years giving the land and waters rest. That makes so much sense. That also makes sense. Completely.

So rest and sisterhood, two wonderful things to take with us, I think. Yeah, so let's see if I, after all of the rambles as I gathered my thoughts in response to such a great question, I would say womanhood is sisterhood and it's scheduling adequate rest. Perfect. I think that's it. I'll just, I'll leave the rest out and I'll just take that soundbite and we're done. So much wisdom.

No, thank you so much. And what was it like growing up for you? Where did you go to school? Raised by a single mother who worked full time and was also called out to the hospital at any hour. She was on call and I spent a lot of time alone, well with a dog who was adopted from the Moorlumbar Pound to guard me when I was left alone. So I spent a lot of time in the bush with my dog before and after school

and that really became imprinted in me as home. So the country that I grew up on became what felt like kin. We're not Aboriginal, though, my family, we arrived as refugees to this continent. And I suppose knowing that the rest of the world had spat us out, and we landed here as part of our personal survival was something to be forever grateful. but we also in doing that became part of a bigger problem colonization of this continent so it did create a perpetual sense of homelessness and also a sense of responsibility to remember that that our survival came part of the story of our survival was also the story of the first Nations people here. That comes strongly through in your work completely, that connection of Indigenous peoples and your own family story.

Where were you refugees from? Well, we're Jewish, so I was born sort of out of the very decimated and fragmented ruins of Jewish people following the Holocaust. So, you know, we spat out of the Middle East and out of Europe and being the descendant of survivors, there was a lot of, while it wasn't spoken about very much at home, there was a silence that still had to be interpreted and to the child's imagination it can be certainly internalised, And at home, there was a silence that still had to be interpreted.

And with a child's imagination, it can be certainly internalised. You know, maybe, you know, we as children, we are naturally egocentric. And for the most part, hopefully most adults will grow out of that. But we do tend to blame ourselves for issues around us. Yeah, so there was a sadness to interpret. And that certainly was absorbed. And it was explained later on. As I said, my mother was a sadness to interpret and it certainly was absorbed. And it was explained later on. As I said, my mother was a single mother, so I also was raised by my grandparents.

And when I was four, my grandfather developed Alzheimer's disease and he started to regress into the memories pre-war where he had a wife and a six-year-old son who were murdered and he would walk around the dining table getting excited that his son would sit next to him and that his wife would sit on the other side and my grandmother would look at me and just take me out of the room to play in the garden. So I had to ask questions. Who are these people who are coming for dinner who weren't actually coming for dinner? And it's through that that I started to sort of understand the weight of that mysterious silence

in our home and developed I suppose an awareness that there would be that there was somebody this mysterious little man in a faraway country that wanted me dead for no other reason than how I was born no matter what I did, and tried to be good. And it also perhaps influenced this sense of being, of need to be stoic, just looping back to the development of my womanhood, but to be stoic and to be strong and to have that spirit of a survivor. And while that's important, I am also in the development of my womanhood learning that I don't have to be like that all the time, that it is okay to indulge in some feelings of weakness and it's not a weakness to say I need to consume this

for my wellbeing or swallow up this space because I have a right to, just no more rights than anybody else but as a creature in this planet I have a right to some space and I that was that's been a hard a hard one to navigate hopefully towards the end of that ramble it answered the first question I think it is so clear that you grew up in an incredibly complex context but you understand the value of silence and deep thought and first I want to say thank you for sharing that because that's an incredibly painful thing I'm sure to access those memories what did you notice about being in the bush with your dog when you were that girl I think it think it was a great sense of adventure

at times. And I still ramble streets like this, but I just sniff things out. So when I was imprinted by nature, perhaps I was also imprinted by my dog's behavior because I will be walking through a new city or navigating the one I live in, particularly with my partner. And they've got their map out following me. And the map is so unnecessary in my view. And I don't want to follow a map. I just want to sniff things out. And I remember things by a tree. That tree was there. And so we just follow that and we have the tree to our right. and also knowing the time of day by knowing what the birds are doing I think growing up in the bush gave me well I mean

not so much growing up in the bush but leaning on the bush letting it become my kin letting my imagination make it my safe place in my next of kin enriched my experience for every day every day onward you know it was scary it could have been scary at times I remember I got a tick in my ear and I you know I had to wait for mum to get home screaming my head off because I didn't know what was happening what that burning was or falling in the water and arriving at being a school cut soaked getting into trouble um all of the things that were sort of was it was a great adventure as well. And it was exciting. In a sense, for those reasons, I had a very lucky childhood.

It was a great adventure. Yeah, and a gift, I guess. What does the bird song tell you? I find that so interesting. When you say that, what do you mean? What does the bird song tell you about the time of day or what's going on? Well, it's that birds make different calls at different times. Different birds make different calls at different times. There's like the magpie, the juvenile magpie has a particular call for when it's hungry. And they also, birds often

call towards the end of the day, they call each other. They're within calling distance, but they're not all in the same tree or in the same cluster of trees. So there's calls and then the other birds come in. And so that was sort of like oh better go home soon like the birds the birds are all getting ready it's time for me to go home too that's I remember that as a very little person some communicate yeah and communication it's like a bell ringing yeah that's that's such an incredible way to grow up and I think something that a lot of people are missing in their lives, right? That noticing of the place that we're in around us. You mentioned before that connection with Indigenous Australians and your own way of

growing up with an understanding of trauma or that silence. When did you discover or kind of come to that realisation that you had a connection with the peoples that were here before colonisation? I suppose it's just, I mean, the word connection, I guess, is not, you know, there's no assumed connection to any particular First Nations individual or country. It's more just, it's more the friendships that I've made along the way and there's been a sense of deep empathy from the start of each of those relationships and the more the deeper those friendships have become it's a the reason the empathetic connection is really explained as we share stories about bringing and our histories and I did walk into a friend's house once and she had a painting

on the wall that she'd done and it had it was a line from the play Brand New Day and it said I just want to be a good Aborigine and I was always taught to never use the word that word you meant to say Aboriginal people that's I don't know if that's right but that's what my mum taught me because the teachers were saying it so I said it and then she said, no, that's disrespectful. You say Aboriginal people. I don't know if she was right or not, but I remembered that. And I saw that on my friend's wall and I just want to be a good Aborigine. And I said, I know that really resonates because when you're part of a minority, I said, from my experience, being part of a minority, you feel like you have to

represent them really well. And you want to undo the tropes and stereotypes that you experience anytime you're, you know, you are identified. So, you know, many tropes about Jewish people that aren't necessarily true, not that one people is monolithic either. So I'm sure there are some really, you know, there are some individuals that are individuals that might fit the trope, but it's not the whole people. But as an individual wanting to, you know, represent your minority well, you'll sort of perhaps tend to overcompensate. Yeah, to be good. To be good. Yeah, to be a good representative of your minority.

Yeah. And that's a huge thing, isn't it? For women, especially, I think in general, that idea that we need to be a good girl, follow the rules, don't be too loud, don't be too out there. Yeah. Don't be too much, don't be too little. Yeah, exactly. Be sexy, but funny, but down to earth, but don't try too hard. Yeah. You know, all of those kinds of things. When did you discover that you were someone who kind of gravitated

towards being artistic or creative? I think it's a communication tool that we have, again, going back to reflecting on childhood in this chat, but it's a communication tool we are given and develop. Yeah. And then I suppose it's reaffirmed you know someone you hear oh she's very good at this very good at that so you sort of continue doing that if you get positive reinforcement maybe but I wouldn't have you know I'm not necessarily so artistic I can be even more pragmatic when I'm you know I work with artists and develop their nurture their work so I can be quite pragmatic when I look at it. You know, I work in the music industry, but I'm not a musician.

But I can also listen to a song and identify where I think it's not, it could be stronger or it's really, you know, it's really great or it could be better. And that's not necessarily an artistic talent. That's probably more, maybe there is some creativity in there, but it's also practicality too. But it's also and you know as a beautiful way to twiddle away time as well and get into a flow of doing something it's noticing isn't it at a very deep level which is I guess that girl in the bush noticing the birds what noticing art is noticing the good and the bad and evaluating it. I just sometimes talk about flow or energy. Do you have a perspective on that? Yeah, I wanted to use the word flow just before that you can really be in when you find yourself

in a flow. It's beautiful. It does completely seems to seems to reset the autonomic nervous system. It seems to just release all the helpful hormones towards happiness. And that can usually happen when you're creating something. Humans seem to really respond well to a sense of being useful. So in a state of creativity or a state of construction, there is a sense of accomplishment there. And I think a disconnection from nature is a sort of antithesis of that as well. Once we connect to nature, we do see the patterns in nature

and those patterns can be translated or transferred into creativity as well. And when people talk about intuition, I believe they're talking about their ability to read patterns in people, in conversations in the world around them. That's how I understand intuition is being attuned to the patterns around us and within us too if we're going to include the self-awareness we should aspire to or I aspire to.

That's so interesting because that just resonates so deeply with me, I think, looking at patterns in human beings is also looking at patterns in nature, is also looking at patterns in nature, is also looking at patterns in like from the smallest bits of our world to the biggest bit, right? It's all that interconnected, like where there's only one of us here, really that concept, you know, and tapping into that is just, it's fascinating, which is, I think why art is such a gift, right? Because it allows people to enter in different

ways into that same knowing. Do you want to talk to us a little bit about why you have created Uprising Songs of Survival because I know that's coming out April 26th. Can you tell us about where that whole idea has come from? Well I've been since the start of my career, including volunteer work that I started when I was really young, I've been focusing on social issues and environmental issues. And there was one that I ignored. And that was, you know, I used to pretend that I wasn't Jewish, people would ask where I was from, and I'd say here. And I went home to mum once and said where are we from and she said you're Jewish I said I can't go back and tell them that and so I would just make things up you're not not not make things up I would cover it up sorry pardon me which is I guess a lie by admission

which is my Freudian Freudian flip then why would you do that why did you need to cover it up it just didn't feel safe again you know wanting to feel It just didn't feel safe. Again, you know, wanting to feel safe, it didn't feel safe. People used to say things like, you know, in a derogatory, it was a real matter of speak, you know, a derogatory way of speaking about Jews. It just didn't feel safe. And also understanding what had happened in the history too. Precedent had said it wasn't safe and then the immediate,

the present tense, it didn't feel safe, you know, it was Jews were spoken about in a derogatory way. And I didn't grow up in a Jewish community so I didn't have, you know it was just spoken about in a derogatory way and I didn't grow up in a Jewish community so I didn't have yeah that's that also explains it so yeah I didn't grow up with that but I was always sort of advocating or very conscious of other the need to represent other groups and advocate and to dedicate my life to you know my short and one life here which is just a tiny little speck of a speck of a speck, just making things a bit better if I can. But I also ignored, I got to maybe decades later in my 30s and thought,

I need to not ignore my own identity. That's such hypocrisy and contradiction and disrespect. And I had to start thinking about it. I was also probably so embedded in me, let's say, by inherited trauma, intergenerational or even epigenetic, you know, feeling it at a cellular level. Couldn't deny it. It's such a part of me. My friends laugh at me because everything reminds me it's both the Holocaust and, you know, laugh or cry.

So for the last few years I've been organising community events to mark Yom HaShoah, which is Holocaust and Heroism Remembrance Day, targeted at third-generation survivors wanting to find a, because there is the annual really traditional way of mourning, which is lighting candles and listening to survivors and hearing the six million names. And while that is such an important, crucial part of Holocaust Memorial, I felt that people were drifting

from that as well and wanting to create something that not just that was accessible and engaging for people who weren't engaged in the other format. And, you know, 11 million people were killed in the Holocaust and they weren't all just Jews. Jews, of course, were the majority. And if Jews were just remembering it, it doesn't really, it's important and through the generations, but it's also a bit of an echo chamber too.

We've seen the dangers of that. So last year, well, a few years ago, I had the idea to do this. And then last year, I put on Uprising Songs of Resistance, and I invited people from various cultural and ethnic backgrounds to share their stories of survival and also do that in solidarity with Jewish people on this really important time. And this year, we're doing it again, songs of uprising, songs of survival.

And I've invited just Australian Jewish and Australian Aboriginal artists and their creative collaborators to participate. And the reason I've narrowed it down there is, well, there are various reasons, but the reason I'm, I think it's really important that as part of, we're looking at survival from the Jewish Holocaust, but part of our survival is displaced Jewish refugees arriving in Australia is the land where, you know, that we arrived and

we had this second chance to survive and make our homes and rebuild our families. And we've done that on other people's land. So's for me really vital that we include their stories as well we'll be Australian Jewish and Australian Aboriginal artists will be singing in solidarity listening to each other's stories and supporting each other throughout yeah learning about our histories and supporting each other through healing yeah that's such a it's such an incredibly moving thing to create where did that drive for social justice you said a phrase and I'm going to read it now that your various hats all tip towards matters pressing upon your social conscience and you have just reflected on that before why is that why why have you always had that bent to what you do? I think that being so aware of suffering, really knowing, really, I think that once,

you know, I don't want to speak, I don't want to generalize too much. But for me, having such, such a deep awareness of suffering, I can't bear the thought of suffering in anyone. And yeah, I think that must be it. It's not, you know, entirely altruistic. I want to put myself out of pain too. Or perhaps I want to, you know, I'm more comfortable in that space as well. How do you carry all of that? Because that's a lot to carry.

I don't know. I do get really bad physical pain. So I do need to learn how to get migraines and really sore neck and back and you know I think that that's I have been addressing that so I think I do store it in some places if we're going to look at metaphysics of things I believe in that but it's also it's also less ethereal than that answer would be when you're doing something that you feel is important, as exhausting as it might become, it's not draining. It's energising because it's just, as I said before, humans, we want to feel, and I don't mean to speak

on behalf of all humans, but I think feeling useful is really important and it's, yeah, it's energising to know that when you're doing the work, no matter how tiring it is, it's energising. It should be anyway. That's a good reference point as well, I think, is, you know, in a relationship or in a relationship you have with work or a relationship you have with an individual or your environment, are you feeling drained could be exhausted and really need sleep and really need a break and really need to just sit under a tree or plonk on the ground or a couch if you're so um yeah there's rest and recuperation and all of that's essential but to be feeling drained and spent and anxious and at the at the end of a tether and you know that's all you want to stay away from that

you want to stay away from work and situations that make you feel that have you always done work that has felt good in that way however there have been times where you haven't done work that has like did it take you a while to realize that that you needed to find work that was purposeful and you felt had meaning I think there's all I've always been doing something that felt meaningful might have been alongside other things that you know were just sort of making money you know like going going through university I was working a few different jobs and it was yeah that felt meaningful yeah it was you find meaning in things as well I've never entirely had to you know I've

never had to don't feel like I had to do really soulless work for you know I'm very lucky on that that front but if you're working around humans you know there's an opportunity to look for you know to be useful as well I mean not just humans there's always an opportunity to do do your best and that's that's meaningful I think there's a poem you put on your Instagram from Mary Oliver called Every Dog's Story. And I loved that so much and I loved the movie you made and I love Queenie's here, which is so gorgeous. What does having a relationship with your dog give you?

Oh, what a beautiful question. It's, you know, you have incidental smiles and laughs and fascination and they can be you know some people don't like dogs and they don't connect I've met a few of those people and then they were forced to hang out with a dog and they changed their minds um but I've also but they you know they can be like a baby or a fire or an ocean you just sort of stare and marvel at the simplicity and the and the what you'll never understand as well but I think having I like being in my own company but I don't particularly like being in the chill of total isolation so having a dog having another

living creature around is really lovely and it forces you to care for something else. You know, I need to attend to her needs and that is a great thing really too. I guess it goes back to what I've been saying about being useful is a great thing, but it does, I like, I'm a happy slave to my dog. To, Robin Davidson said that I think about her camels in tracks. You're a slave to your dog. A happy slave you're right they're just in the moment they're just there and they're just sleeping or eating or resting and there's none of that existential worrying that human beings seem to do right yeah are there other things you do that quiet your mind in that way?

Yeah, hanging out with trees. I just love it. I mean, it's an uncomplicated relationship. You don't have to do much to be kind to a tree or to a dog. You just have to not hurt them. So it's easy. Although, you know, we can accidentally hurt and cause harm all the time. So it's so great to be aware that you don't want to do that.

You know, it's easy to be playing with a tree and then, you know, marveling, admiring a tree and then pick their leaf. And, you know, you're just fiddling. Like I fiddle and fidget quite a lot. So I could just, you know, like accidentally be fiddling and fidgeting, pulling off leaves. And I don't want to do that. I was taught by a Kimberley elder, Uncle Sam Lovell,

and his elders have taught him, you don't take from a tree what you don't need. And I, you know, and that, that sticks with me as well. And I've taught that to the children in my life too. And when we pick fruit, two of my nephews, Jonah and Ari, I don't even have to cue them anymore. And they say, thank you tree. And it's just, yeah, it's a, sorry, I just let in a humble brag about my nephews, but I find that just, I'm a happy, not a happy slave slave I'm a happy guest under the trees and on their planet you know trees ideally will outlive me and as they should just given a human's

lifespan to a trees and it is a complex relationship that we humans have made complex with trees the exploitation of them and you know know, there's a lot to correct there. That's an ocean in itself, isn't it? You know, the way human beings relate to our planet. It's so strange, me. There's a lot to correct there in the ocean too. Right. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask you about this beautiful phrase, gentle fires, you wrote about on your Instagram and experiencing the bush with Barry Hunter and Victor Stephenson. Now he's written a book, Fire Country. What changed for you in watching the way that they develop or manage the land? That is so cool that you brought that up. Thank you. That is really cool. Well, Victor Stevenson is in the book that you referred to and Barry Hunter. They took me out onto their country to look at how they do fire management. And we were standing there and they were starting

fires in the bush. And the fires were getting really quite high walls of fire, but they were starting fires in the bush. And the fires were getting really, you know, quite high walls of fire. But they were so relaxed. And I had to learn and trust that it was all safe. And the fires were, I mean, fire is fierce and ferocious and fast moving. But this fire was under control. And it's because the people who had lit the fire Barry and Victor and the people who were managing them Barry and Victor they could read they understood the country they understood their country they understood the species that were

burning and why and how they would burn they could predict it fire which is usually, as I said, such a force that cannot be contained, was so gentle because it was being managed by people who understood what was burning, I suppose, and how it would burn. And gentle fire sounds like an oxymoron, and it was until that day, until I saw that. And perhaps the fire itself wasn't gentle but the way in which Victor and Barry were living with their country and on their country and understanding fire and fire management there they tread with care and they live with care and it was a beautiful gentle incredibly immeasurable powerful approach yeah it was really a phenomenal thing to experience thanks for reminding me you're welcome is there something in that that we can take into our broader lives

as well that concept be gentle and be caring and it doesn't mean that it's weak or it's not a weakness it's a strength to be gentle it's's a superpower to care. Find the people who are experts in their areas and there's no one more with more expertise in managing country and managing the planet and the natural world that are First Nations people. It's as simple and as complex as that. Yeah, it's for forever. First Nations people have kept this planet safe and it's taken a very short amount of time for humans

and modern ways to make the planet and the people and all of its inhabitants incredibly unsafe. So if I'm to take any lesson from discovering that it is possible to have a gentle fire, it's listen and defer power to the people who we can trust in your opinion this is a huge question in your opinion why is it that people have done this like why why have we stopped listening why is there colonization why is there so much suffering trauma violence in that way I know that's a huge thing to ask someone.

I mean, I don't know the answer, but I will. I mean, going back to what I said earlier in our conversation about children are naturally egocentric. The world revolves around us. We blame ourselves for our parents' misery. We blame ourselves for divorces. We blame ourselves for, you know, we think the whole world's, we think we're the main star and everybody's watching our development. And hopefully, ideally, most people grow out of that. But perhaps the people who have been making these decisions that have impacted every single species on this planet didn't grow out of it. Perhaps it's a state of mind that has translated

into a mass scale of power and exploitation and privilege. It's greed. It's a delusion of power and exploitation and privilege. It's greed. It's a delusion of what we need to survive, that we need more than, you know, people think they need, you know, this idea that there's never enough because there's no pause to reflect on what actually there is in abundance, which is enough. Yeah. And that's such an excellent answer, I think. It feels true to me because it does feel like when you see, I'm thinking even Putin and what's happening in Ukraine,

it does feel childlike in a very strange way, that behaviour, that grasping, grabbing without thought, without empathy. Yeah. That starts so small but then has so much destruction behind it and yeah I guess we're charged with figuring out how we heal that and I'd have no idea where to begin where do you see healing possible or happening I suppose you know we could do like a you know look at it as healing inwards to outwards heal what's at home heal what's in your heart and let that extend but I also think that we can step out of ourselves and learn from emulate you know decide how you want to be perhaps step away from who you are

and how you've been and imagine how you want to be you want to be gentle learn what that looks like emulate it lean your full body up against a tree and i mean that sounds i don't care how it sounds it works for me it's a you know it's a step towards humility it's look at look at you know you're you're a giant in your own life and you can make a big impact and in that can make a big impact in this life but you're also a little speck in the scheme of the you know everybody else's lives too you're both there's dualities and there's a duality where you're tiny and you're huge. And going back to being caring, care, do things with care,

be gentle, and it doesn't mean be meek. It doesn't mean withdraw and become invisible. It means listen and observe. And if you do, and some people won't feel motivated to do that some people are perfectly happy happy living the way they are but I can't imagine that's a majority really or all the time I think we want to feel useful we want to connect we want to be loved at least we did at first you know unless you're you know unless you have really anti-social psychological inclinations.

I was just going to say I'm reading a book called The Psychopath Next Door. So, you know, not everybody cares. Yeah, there's definitely those people and we've met them. We've all met them in our workplaces that really genuinely don't care and don't have the ability to care. And sometimes you'll be sitting next to them at a movie theatre or something and you can feel it. Yeah, it's a lot, isn't it? Being human, I think.

And one thing I've noticed about myself too, and I wonder if this is true for you as well, when you are a deeply feeling person and human and incredibly sensitive, A, it can be hard to walk through the world when you're caring about everything, like every tiny little bug, tree, dog, person, everything. And sometimes it means that you do things that can be self-destructive or put up barriers or numb because you need to, because it feels too big and too hard. And I don't know where my question is in all of this. I'm just wondering how you, as a young person who might be feeling in that way, how did you navigate the world being that kind of openly sensitive person? I know you've mentioned a lot that sometimes people see that as a weakness and it's not,

it's a strength, but it takes a long time to learn that. I can speak to it. Yeah. I've had an anxiety disorder. You know, it's not, I would have panic attacks. I can speak to it. Yeah. I've had an anxiety disorder. I would have panic attacks. I would black out from panic attacks. It took me a long time to work out how and how to protect myself and how to not change. I didn't want to become less compassionate. I just wanted to, I had to learn to be more judicious with my compassion. I learnt that phrase from a beautiful family friend who's like an auntie to me, Dorothy, to be judicious with my compassion. And I suppose, you know, inspired, say,

by someone guiding me like Dorothy did, she, you know, learning who to trust in the world is really important. Learning through trial and error and heartbreak, learning who you can count on whose opinion you do want and with that person it's really important to be completely transparent so that they have all the information about you and they can tell you when you know when you're doubting yourself am I wrong did I do am I bad did I the wrong thing? They can say yes or no quite fairly and quite lovingly regardless. And that's the most important thing I've learned. So yes, I mean, that has a dependence

on other people, which is really as someone who's been sort of fiercely independent, that feels weird, but it's not. It's so vital. I think it's so vital because we do need to be connected it's also you know self-soothing as a phrase I've heard and it's a phrase I've heard from a lot of you know friends who are mothers um but teaching your children to self-soothe like oh I think I mum missed the memo on that but it's learning how to calm yourself and how to reassure yourself and how to feel safe again you want it you need to feel safe and how to reassure yourself and how to feel safe. Again, you need to feel safe. You need to feel, you know, we're coming from a place of fear.

We're not going to get too far. If we're motivated, you know, from a place of feeling strong and where we're feeling grounded, it can be a lot more powerful. And, yeah, I guess, you know, you look at a dog when they're scared and they're they're really at risk of biting and you don't want to be like that it's a lot to learn from the non-human world yeah so I'd say is even though I'm talking about say self-soothing it's actually relying on a few key people to assist with your moral read them you know assist with your moral, read them, you know, assist with a moral compass, finding people who have aligned values. Yeah, because safety is huge, isn't it? That's a phrase that I've learned through parenting, actually, that the first point of call, especially when a kid is in that sort of fight or flight response and they're just, there's so

much emotion coursing through them that you can't get to them is just you are safe. I'm not going to let you hurt anyone. I'm not going to let you get hurt. And then once we're safe, there's so much that can come from that. And it's really soothing, right, to feel that, to know that you're safe enough that you can push all the boundaries and be the worst version of you and you're still safe, you're still here, you're still, you know, cared for and loved regardless of how feral you're being

or how flawed or fragile because we all are, right? And so sometimes it's also about finding that way to bring safety back into ourselves even when we're in situations where maybe we don't feel as safe or we're being challenged yeah it's because you can't really do anything if you don't first feel safe enough to be able to do that is that what you do for singers for musicians in your work I don't think I entirely have that. I don't, I wish I could offer that to the artists I look after and, you know, I do it. I can't just, you know, it's not, I don't have that power to, but I mean, I do, I hope so. You know, they certainly, I mean, I don't want to speak on

their behalf, but I ensure that our relationships are really a place where they feel safe. And I do that. We do that together, the artists and I, we do that together the artists and I we do that together by the way we treat each other and treat the work too yeah that's really important yeah thank you for that work that you do because it's so clear that in all of the music and filming that is a part of what you do or you produce there's so much care and noticing that's happened in those projects how did you meet or begin to work with kev comedy because i loved cannot buy my soul yeah how did that work come about i met uncle kev through paul through paul kelly we were staying we were visiting Uncle Kev and his partner Beryl in Colombo country in the Granite Belt Queensland we were talking about I mean Uncle Kev is such a captivating

storyteller beautiful person and we can just talk for hours you, take it in turns listening and talking. And it's an incredible, beautiful experience. And I said to him, have you thought about putting all this down in a book? And he said, well, I've put it all down in many, many songs. And years ago, maybe 13 years ago, so 2007, I think, Paul had actually made the first incarnation of Cannot Buy My Soul and that was out of print you couldn't buy it anymore so I thought might be time you know we could either reissue it or we could update and reissue and add a whole lot more songs and artists, a whole lot of newer artists to the Cannot Buy My Soul fold. So I had the idea to do that. I ran it past Paul.

He was really enthusiastic. I ran it past Uncle Kev. He was really enthusiastic. I then ran it past John O'Donnell who runs EMI, the record label, and John said he thought it was very important with a capital I. So I just got going and I had made a list of artists who I wanted to feature on there and I ran that by Uncle Kev and along with Uncle Kev I made made a list of um songs that could be good but

then I ultimately that was just as a suggestion to the artists and yeah and every every decision I made along the way I ran it past Uncle Kev um it's a you know it's not his album as such it's tribute album to him but he still needed to be across every decision and I felt um and it was a really beautiful thing to work on because it's it's aboriginal truth-telling at its you know across many many songs with the help of many great artists and there's real it's like it's history there history that has a great melody and a great beat and, yeah, the lyrics are great history lessons. Yeah, they take you into a time and a place, each of those songs,

in completely different ways. And I've listened to Kev or Uncle Kev or Kev Carmody story tell in interviews and I just would love to sit next to him around a fire and just absorb all of that humour and presence and depth of I don't know understanding about why we're here and where we are in history and I love is it Living on the Wire that song I think is on the wire it's one of my favorites yeah sung by Troy Cassidaly yeah the nicest person I've ever met yeah yeah Troy is as sweet as his voice you know and as warm and open as his laugh. He's a beautiful person. Yeah, that album is abundant. It's really, I was really lucky to work on it and work with Uncle Kev.

Work with those lyrics. There is devastating truth told by Uncle Kev in those lyrics and the artists who perform them. Even when Uncle Kev performs those songs too, you can listen. You don't want to stop listening. You don't want to cover your eyes or cover your ears. You want to hear more. Whereas usually, I mean, the reality of Australia's history

for First Nations people is brutal. It's devastating. It's heartbreaking. You know, you want to look away because it's so painful but through that music you yeah I mean just thinking about the opening verse to cannot buy my soul it's even the name of it I'm talking about the song cannot buy my soul you know the title song from the album it's um yeah it's hugely powerful and just in that small phrase builds like what we were talking about

before that empathy almost immediately there's just so much in there about even capitalism and and what that the devastation of what they're what has happened to first nations people and then yeah the fact that you can't that the soul is yours someone can take everything else from you but you know there's something that remains so incredibly beautiful and moving and you're right I think music allows us to enter into something that otherwise people might turn away from because it's too painful too hard too brutal yeah yeah there's a there's a line in cannot buy my soul the clever man spoke precisely humanity he said was done its creed of greed could not proceed if our struggles to be one and it's you know that lyric answers the question that you asked me before that I rambled on you

know but it's in that in in those two lines sort of answers you know how do we how do we address this yeah exactly and so listening really is where we're at I wanted to finish because I know we've had I could talk to you forever I've just loved this conversation and I think it's been such a gift thank you for sharing your stories I wanted to talk to you lastly about the Museum of Inherited Memories and I think it's kind of clear from the title where that comes from. Could you tell people about that? I suppose it just it came about and I've probably revealed the everything that led me to to establishing it but it's you know I wanted to we inherit as survivors and descendants of survivors and anybody who is in existence we've inherited something we've come from somewhere

and while I've inherited heavy load of trauma let's say I will just say that I'll admit it to myself I don't have to be so stoic but yeah inherited trauma that anxiety disorder I mentioned to you didn't come out of nowhere you know it's not normal for a little child a little girl to have that didn't come out of nowhere it was inherited and I also you know I've inherited I've inherited a lot and in that in that is the it's a heavy load and in that is is also what lightens it I'm where I am now you know who I am which is something and someone I have to accept because I have to keep going and we inherit trauma and we also inherit a will to live which might wax and wane at times you know but it's that it's there and

it's important to I felt it was important to not be isolated in that experience and to reveal it confess it and create a space for people to connect through it and through their experiences and yeah so I so I invited I invite people from various cultural and ethnic backgrounds to contribute their inherited memories, you know, in the way that we, through the various projects that we put on and, you know, and curate and celebrate survival together and solidarity, celebrate survival and solidarity. And it is inspired by Holocaust Memorial because that's my story and that's my history. It's also inspired by Indigenous justice because without it, we don't have climate justice, I'll say that, but we also don't have integrity because we have to be aware of where we are at all times to really able

to imagine how we want to be in the world. That was certainly not a catchy spiel to promote the Museum of Herod and Memories. I was still sort of a bit hurt, a little bit in cannot buy my soul land and a bit but yeah it's a space to celebrate survival and solidarity and through through the arts and to respond to each other's experiences and to inspire empathy between everyone wherever it can be found well thank you so much for inspiring empathy and bringing people together in that way

I really have appreciated this chat and your perspective I'm sure lots of people will get so much out of what you shared today but just in general I'm just in awe of everything you've done because it's just so beautiful so thank you so much that's very kind and generous of you to say that and take the time to look at it and listen and encourage me to speak. Thank you to you, Claire. You're welcome. I really admire what you do. Oh, well, thank you. We're all giving it a go, aren't we?

One last question, actually. I'll ask you on this. What is one of your favourite poems that you're reading at the moment, or poets, I should say, who are you reading at the moment that you love? I probably read a few poems every day. A poem I read today before our call, I actually read two already today, one about the ocean, about waves, and also one by a poet called Yehuda Amachai called Diameter of a Bomb.

Yeah, I think there is a lot of complexity in the origins and inspirations of where he writes from. Oh, I also read an Emily Dickinson poem today. Oh, I really, I love her poetry as well. She had an unhappy life which I hope was, you know, sprinkled with happiness too but it's really revealed in her poetry yeah I'm gonna say this is on the spot but would you be willing to read a poem for us yeah I could do that shall I read the lyrics to cannot buy my soul seeing as we sort of

touched on that yes yeah I wonder if that's okay to do that I think that's okay I might read the lyrics to a song that's on cannot buy my soul called I've been moved rather than the title track because I think it's probably more appropriate to read this one I've been moved I've been moved by the wind upon the waters and the shadows as the leaves are blown when that old wind moans on a weary winter Sunday, like a friend that keeps on knocking on my home. I've been moved by the crying of the newborn, the honey sweetness of the air in spring. I've watched the moonlight flood across them sleepy hills

and valleys, heard the sadness in her requiem. I've been moved watching nature slowly turning through the seasons and the patterns that she brings. And as the morning star proceeds, the breaking of a new day, you'll find the black crow is already on the wing. I've been moved watching something that's been suffering, be it humankind or any living thing. From the fury of the storm, that old parched ground is reborn

and the deserts blooms to satisfy a king i've been moved by the tireless sea churning and then scarlets of an inland dusk when a close friend died i turned away and cried as they laid him down and shoveled in the dust. Oh, that's so beautiful. Thank you for reading that. What made you choose that one? I felt, I mean, we spoke about Uncle Kevin, about Cannot Buy My Soul. So I thought, I was tempted to read

The Diameter of a Bomb by Yehuda Amakai, but I felt read something from Cannot Buy My Soul, but reading the title track, Cannot Buy My Soul, but reading the title track Cannot Buy My Soul, it's told more in first person from an Aboriginal's perspective. So I just thought it was kind of more respectful if I read I've Been Moved instead. Oh, that was so beautiful. And that's right.

I think in the end, right, like where we start is be moved and then action comes. Yeah. Start there. And that's where empathy comes in you know we usually to you see in a lot of you know once you can help a human connect to something to someone else or just another creature they have seem to be more interested and more invested in looking after it yeah exactly just letting ourselves be moved because that's huge because once you care then you do have to act which is the hardest part you know because if you it's much easier to pretend that you don't care because then you don't have to do anything about it yeah that's a good point yeah would you like to read the other poem as well? That's up to you. Okay. The Diameter of a Bomb by Yehuda Amachai.

The diameter of the bomb was 30 centimetres and the diameter of its effective range about 7 metres, with four dead and 11 wounded. And around these, in a larger circle of pain and time, two hospitals are scattered and one graveyard. But the young woman who was buried in the city she came from at a distance of more than 100 kilometres enlarges the circle considerably, and the solitary man mourning her death at the distant shores of a country far across the sea includes the entire

world in the circle. And I won't even mention the crying orphans that reaches up to the throne of God and beyond, making a circle with no end and no God. We're all going to need a big glass of wine after this. Thank you so much for sharing. I think poetry accesses something. Yeah, it puts words around things that it's really hard to nail down it sort of distills creates the essence doesn't it there is such a in the process of writing poetry it is such a process of distilling and extracting

the essence completely do you write poetry uh yeah not just you know just for the process of it i guess honing in discovering the essence of the thought or feeling it's good for that yeah sort of it it's in it like a a little valve or something sort of you know lets the tension out lets the it's there lets it escape in a way so it's not all pent up in there or something. I don't know. That's what it does for me, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, thank you, Sian, darling. My goodness. Thank you. This has been just such a privilege. So we'll have to catch up in person. That would be lovely. I'd love that. We'll do a poetry spot.

Yeah, that sounds great. I'll bring my little bag of poetry, yeah. People either get poetry or they don't, right? Like my partner does not get poetry, just can't, not for him. Oh, well, maybe you should just stay open to it, you know, just in case. Or hip-hop. Yeah.

Hip-hop is, you know, I think that's what, yeah, I love hip-hop. It's the sort of my favourite genre of music and it's just there's great sense of poetry in there, wordplay, profound, extracting the essence of complex experiences in there. Thank you. We're all going to listen to hip-hop and poetry after this chat. Good. And then lean on a tree.

Yes. It will be my favourite. Do it all at once, right? Lean on a tree, read some poetry, listen to some hip hop and just, you know, really absorb. That sounds like a good day. Yeah, yeah, maybe with the dog. Got to have the dog with you.

Great. I just, this podcast is such a privilege for me to just listen. I just get so much out of listening to people and listening to you and listening to you speak into this space. I think more, say more things because you're saying so many wonderful things. So thank you and doing so many wonderful things. My goodness. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me to speak with you. It's conversation with you is always such a grounding experience and and in that you know in that feeling of being connected and anchored the conversation can really be wild correct exactly I'll have to come out so I can be the anchor to you and Lisa's wild no no I'll be wealthy all right

cool excellent we'll all do it together all All right. We're all in it. We're fine. Exactly. All right. Thanks, Sian. All right. Mwah. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti,

and this week with the wonderful, magic Sian Darling. For more from Sian, head to atdoubledarling on Instagram and also go and check out the Museum of Inherited Memories. There's just so many beautiful, beautiful videos that Sian's created and put together. So go over to her Instagram and have a look over there. You can also see her dog Queenie, who's just a delight. For more from me, you can head to claire20.com or head to my Instagram where I like to tell stories at claire20. And I also have another podcast called Suggestible, which I do with my husband, man, James, every Thursday,

where we recommend you things to watch, read and listen to. That's a lot of fun over there. So I really encourage you to go and check it out. And I also am doing other interviews that come out every week. Next week will be Amani Haidar, who is a beautiful writer and artist who creates art in response to the murder of her mother by her father. But so much more than that, just telling the stories of women affected by violence and war.

And so if you liked this episode with Sian, I think you'll really also get a lot out of that episode with Amani next week. And I also have other interviews with people like Claire Bowditch and Jamila Rizvi. So you can scroll back in the feed and check those out too. As always, thank you to the incredible Raw Collings for editing this week's episode. And also to Maisie for championing our Facebook and our Instagram accounts at Todd's Pod and also at, now I can't remember, at Suggestible Pod. There you go.

My brain's kicked back in. All right. That's it from me. Rate, review, subscribe, all the things, and I'll talk to you soon. Big love. Bye. Bye. I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak and write today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their

elders past, present and emerging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been ceded.