TONTS. - Kindred Women with Erin Pluekhahn

Episode Date: July 4, 2022

My guest today Erin Pluekhahn is a doula, an event manager and now founder of kindred women - a beautiful business that creates women’s circles, gatherings and retreats that aim to nurture, care and restore women through meditation, journaling, movement, nature and sound immersion. I attended a session ran by Erin and it was such a beautiful experience. In this episode we talk about women’s circles as ancient, spiritual traditions, about how Erin embarked on a career change after the birth of her daughters, about her beliefs about how we care for women, our people and our planet and how the patterns in nature are so often reflected in our own lives. If you’re feeling burnt out and exhausted this episode is for you. Erin has a knack for allowing women to reconnect to themselves and to each other and I hope you love this episode as much as I did. A heads up too that we discuss birth in this episode and I think it’s important to note that while I whole heartedly think it’s important to have expert medical care on hand if necessary for birthing women and their babies as it absolutely can save lives (and did for me) as we talk about today there is also a lot of evidence to suggest that it is not the only thing women need to birth safely and having continuity of care and the wonderful nurturing space that can be provided by doulas and midwives is incredibly vital and important to birth outcomes that allow women to feel safe, empowered and in control, feeling educated and advocated for throughout the process. For more from Erin you can follow her on instagram @kindredwomenFor more from Claire you can head to www.clairetonti.com or @clairetonti on instagramYou can email the show at [e-mail] credits:Editing - RAW Collings and Claire TontiTheme music - Avocado Junkie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak, and write today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present, and emerging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been ceded. Hello, this is Tons, a podcast of in-depth interviews about emotions and the way they shape our lives. I'm your host, Claire Tonti, and I'm really glad you're here. Each week, I speak to writers, activists, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans about their stories. My guest today is Erin Placan. She's a doula, an event manager, and now founder of Kindred Women, a beautiful business that creates women's circles,

gatherings, and retreats that aim to nurture, care and restore women through meditation, journaling, movement, nature and sound immersion. Mate, it's so far up my alley, honestly. I attended a session ran by Erin and it was just such a beautiful moving experience. In this episode, we talk about women's circles as ancient spiritual traditions, about how Erin embarked on a career change after the birth of her daughters, about her beliefs about how we care for women, our people and our planet, and how the patterns in nature are so often reflected in our own lives.

If you're feeling burnt out and exhausted, this episode is also for you. Erin has a knack for allowing women to reconnect to themselves and to each other. And I hope you love this episode as much as I did. A heads up too, that we discussed birth in this episode. And I think it's important to note that while I wholeheartedly think it's vital to have expert medical care on hand for birthing women and their babies as it saved lives and it definitely did mine. There is also more to talk about to do with birth. There's a lot of evidence to suggest that it's not the only thing women need to birth safely and having continuity of care and the wonderful nurturing space that can be provided by doulas and midwives is just incredibly vital and important to birth outcomes

that allow women to feel safe, empowered, in control, and that also allows them to feel educated and advocated for throughout the whole process and afterwards as well. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. I absolutely did. I get a little bit teary at the end as well. So here she is, the wonderful, wise Erin Placan. I wanted to ask you first what you began as, because you were originally in events, right? I was. Yeah. So how did you transition to doing Kindred Women? Because

we'll talk about that in a minute. What was that like? So you started in events. Let's start there. Why did you land in events and styling and those sorts of things? Well, I'd always loved bringing people together. You know, from a young age, I would love to like have dinner parties in grade six and that sort of thing. Like, of course you did. Because on the school yard, it's always like, Erin's here. Hi, everyone. Just knows everyone's name, always in like a gorgeous outfit. Oh, stop it. No, but I've always been social and I've always loved that human connection, you know, and bringing people together. But more than that, creating like an atmosphere,

you know, where that human connection can kind of unfold. So really, I didn't know what I wanted to do when I was at school. And I went to see the career counsellor and she suggested to me that I should do PR. And I thought, what is this PR thing? I didn't even know what PR was about. So I enrolled in a PR course after school and I didn't really enjoy it. So I went out and started working and I started working in a stockbroking firm while I was deciding what I might go on to study. And during that time, I was exposed to sort of corporate hospitality and I moved to London and started working at Morgan Stanley and I worked in their roadshows team and started doing these amazing events. So I thought when I go home, that's what I'm going to study. So I went back to uni and did a business degree that majored in event management. And then yeah, after that, I just started working in events and ended up freelancing. And then just kind of

probably a year and a half before having Niamh, I took a job, a full-time job at a PR agency, which I always think is funny because I did come around full circle to working in that, you know, this area that this career counsellor had identified when I went in there in year 10 saying, I'm so lost, I don't know what I want to do. So yeah, that was interesting. So that's how I ended up doing that. And I worked in that agency until I had Niamh. Wow. Yeah.

That's so interesting, isn't it, that teachers saw something in you about PR. What is it about bringing people together that you love so much? You know, I don't know. I think I've just kind of got a natural knack for doing it, I guess, and making people feel comfortable and I've always been aware of that about myself, I think. And I've always been kind of fascinated with how we feel in certain surrounds, I think, you know, and that we can manipulate the kind of emotional experience by

what our surrounds are like. Yeah, that is so true. That connection between where we are and how a vibe feels and an energy in a space. And some people don't feel that at all. And like I remember talking to my husband about energy and vibe and he's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. You know, you either feel that or you don't. That's right.

And some people are really sensitive to it and other people aren't, you know. Yeah. And it's a gift, I think, to be able to do that for people. How did you end up becoming a doula? So after my first pregnancy and birth, things began to kind of unravel in terms of what I was doing career-wise and where I was kind of heading. I think that I was really unprepared for the complete metamorphosis that I would kind of go through.

I guess I got pregnant a little earlier than planned as well. So I didn't have a whole lot of time to kind of prepare and think about this rite of passage I was embarking on and, you know, what the other side would look like. So yeah, I sort of thought, you know, I would just go back to work. I'd probably just go back to freelancing and my baby would play at my feet. I just remember that idea. I thought I'd do a master's. Yeah.

I mean, grand plans, Claire. I was like, it's going to be so easy. And, you know, I began to feel as I, you know, as Niamh got a little older and I did feel like I was ready to go back to work and picked up projects and things, I found the balancing act just completely overwhelming. I just thought there is a better way. Like as women, are we really meant to be holding all of this? You know, I think of myself as a pretty capable person and I just found it too much. It felt like the whole family was imploding when, you know, I was going back to work and that sort of thing. So I began to kind of, I think, notice how far I'd strayed from my feminine nature and really that women around me weren't doing that great either. You know, there was a lot of women

suffering from anxiety and depression, you know, stress-related illnesses, hormone imbalances. And, you know, from the outside looking in, looked like they were managing it all. But the more I started delving into these conversations with women around me and exploring books and connecting with women who are also interested in having these conversations, I kind of uncovered that collectively we had strayed a long way from our feminine nature and that we really, everything was connected in terms of where we're at with climate change and with the levels of mental health issues and things like that. I think it's all interconnected. And, you know, this dismissal of rites of passage as well, you know, and birth being one of them. And so I just couldn't deny this

calling I had to walk alongside women, I guess, in their journey to wholeness. And, you know, I'm very much still on that journey myself and I'm kind of sitting in the mess of it all, but kindred women's space is really about creating a space that I need and saying, do you need this too? You know? And I think women absolutely do. Yeah. Yeah. I totally feel that. I was thinking even last night I had dinner with a girlfriend who is, yeah, just doing everything, you know, and doing it, but it's not good for her.

And I can see that she thinks she needs to and struggling, not that she's doing everything really well, but the thing that's suffering is her, like her she's doing everything really well, but the thing that's suffering is her. Like her partner's doing well, her baby's doing well, her work is going really well, but she in herself, I can see it. And I just want to wrap her up and say, I just want to look after you. Who's looking after you? That's right. You know?

And that's quite often the case that we sort of come so far down the wrong of the ladder in terms of caring and nurturing ourselves that at some stage it kind of comes back to bite us, I think. Often in physical health ways, right? Which I think is something I've been exploring too, that we often think of mental health as just in our brains. And if we can just keep going, our physical body will be fine. Maybe our brain will deal with that later. But, you know, if we just, I don't know, do some mantras and stuff. But it actually comes out in illness.

It does. And physical pain and headaches in all kinds of ways. I've seen that kind of stress on ourselves. So I totally love what you're doing because I really enjoyed going to Kindred Women as well because I went and did an experience there with you, which was so beautiful in the women's circle. So I want to talk more about Kindred Women. But before we get there, can you explain what a doula is? Because I think I hadn't actually heard that term until maybe last year when a friend used a doula for her birth. Yeah. So the word doula is a Greek word, which means to serve. And really what a doula is,

a companion, a birth companion, and actually a companion at any stage of life. It can be at birth, it can be at death, but to kind of support people through those rites of passage. So yeah, a doula is a non-medically trained birth support person. A non-medically trained birth support person, A non-medically trained birth support person, right? And because I think that pushback and my own bias and pushback was, yeah, but they're not medically trained. So what's the point? Why would you want them there? And oh, that's someone, that's for people who do home births and that's dangerous. Why is it so important that you have someone like a doula there with you or a midwife that you trust? Why is that so important?

Well, I think all research shows that continuity of care has the best birth outcomes. And currently in Australia, one in three women experience birth trauma. And almost 20% of first-time mums have long-term injuries after their birth. And I think our cesarean rate is currently at around 35%. So there's no kind of evolutionary explanation as to why these stats are so high. And we really need to look at how women are moving through the maternity system. It needs a huge shake-up because not all women have access to midwifery-led programs, for example, and not all women understand that different models of care have different outcomes as well. So having a doula means having someone to walk alongside you as you make those decisions, whether it be looking at

models of care initially, preparing for birth, and not just in the physical sense, which might be, you know, through preparation of understanding the stages of labor and gathering your toolkit so that you can cope, but really understanding on a spiritual level, the change and meeting your new self on the other side and what you might need to put in place that will support you in that. Yeah, because that's that matriessence word. Exactly. I spoke about that with Kim

Veal in the last episode, and I had never heard that term before or never understood that like in adolescence, when you go through motherhood like that, your body is so changed by the hormones that are released. So you are becoming a new version of you. And I completely agree with what you said about birth trauma. I mean, I experienced incredible birth trauma and I think it's taken me five, six years to really come to terms with it and what happened to me. And I saw that in so many of my friends as well. And it's heartbreaking because you do think, how could have things have been different if I'd felt safe? That's right. You know, and of

course there's a place for medical intervention in birth because, but really birth is not a medical event until it is. So I think that we need to understand that birth is another rite of passage that's been taken away from us by the patriarchal culture that we're living in. So, you know, we've handed over our birth and our innate wisdom to birth our own children to a system. And I think we need to reclaim that because if we do leave birth undisturbed and understand the power that comes through in that experience, then, you know, women will come out the other side, even if they do experience some kind of trauma, at least they do experience some kind of trauma, at least they've made informed decisions along the way and understand what's happened

to them rather than handing their birth over to someone else. And I'm not sure if I worded that really well, but. No, I think you really did. Because Kim said the same thing. She was saying it's a lack of control. It's feeling like you didn't know what was happening. You had no control over it. You're laboring, you're in incredible amount of pain and you're trying to make informed decisions at that point when you can't. And your partner doesn't know either. So that feeling of lack of control, even if there's medical intervention that's needed, if you know at every step of the way where it's going, you can come out of it feeling much better. What was it like the first time you went to someone else's birth?

Well, the first time I went to someone else's birth was actually my own sister's. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. My older sister and my God, she's actually a midwife as well. And so, you know, I was very prepared for what labour and birth would look like. And gosh, it was really indescribable seeing my nephew born and, you know, supporting my sister afterwards as well. She's my older sister, but I'd already had my two girls. So that was really beautiful to be able to witness her through that. Yeah. What an incredible experience to see life come into the

world like that and see your own sister, which is something we just don't do right in our culture. And do you think it's important, because husbands traditionally factor into that role, right? Why do you think it's important that we have more women in the room? I think partners play an incredibly important role in that safety, you know, so there's no dismissing that role and the importance of that role. But I think having women in the room who can make you feel safe is very empowering. What do you wish that you had known in giving birth after being with other women while they give birth, what do you wish that you had known? It's hard to say because if I went back, I wouldn't necessarily do anything different for, yeah,

during the actual birthing process. Yeah. But I think I would trust myself more and trust myself particularly in those early days that I knew what to do. Yeah, because that's a part of it too, right, that everyone gives you so much advice and it's hard to know, especially as a first-time mum, what you should be doing and how you should be doing it, right?

I think that's a huge part of it and it can also be a very isolating experience too, which I think is why it's so beautiful that you talk so much about caring and walking with women through their life too. So do you want to talk to us about Kindred Women now and what it actually is and where that, the spark of that idea came from? Okay. Well, I was reflecting on kind of how I got here. I think we all have those moments of like, how did I actually, how did I come to, come to do this work? And you know, you have to do that so that you can get rid of that imposter syndrome that we all kind of suffer from at various times. And really, I think that my

upbringing has informed kindred women's space somewhat. I grew up in a very big family. My mum is one of six. And so is my dad, five of those being sisters. And yeah, lots of cousins, two sisters, myself and a beautiful brother. And we grew up in very close relationship with our grandparents. And my aunties were around. My mum and my aunties would do their grocery shopping together. We were hanging out after school and they were sitting around chatting. I really did have those auntie figures and those intergenerational relationships that, you know, we don't often have anymore. And really, I think I was quite

lucky to have that because that's been lost for many generations now, I think. And now I realise that that was kind of formative, you know. I understood what it was like to live in community and to live with the wisdom of kind of elders sitting around, you know, and raising children together and how that can lighten the load, you know, sharing our burdens and sharing our lives intimately can really lighten the load. And yeah, I guess my own kind of postpartum experience once, you know, the high kind of wore off and, you know, a second baby came along and I was trying to balance work and toddlers and all the things, I really reflected on that and how we'd strayed so far in our modern day culture from those values and how it kind of had left me

flailing in the wind, to be honest. You know, I'd lost that in my own life. I mean, my sisters live around the corner, but we're caught up in our busy lives. And even though I had all this support network around me and a large friendship circle, I still found, you know, my life as a mother quite isolating. And that made me think, like, how, if I'm feeling like that, then how are women without those supports in place feeling? You know, it must be incredibly isolating. So, yeah, that's where I sort of started thinking a little bit more about the feminine and how we'd lost those feminine values

and how that was impacting our experience as women, particularly our experience of motherhood. And so, yeah, I started gathering women together, women who were also interested in having these conversations and perhaps exploring new ways of being and, you know, changing the, wanting to change the narrative, you know, for our children so that they didn't feel, you know, I'm very thankful to the women who have walked before us and paved this way for, you know, equality and empowering us to use our voices and get a seat at the table and be heard, you know. But I think that what our generation is doing is kind of realising that we don't have to be like men to be in our

power, that actually our unique feminine qualities and the balance of the feminine and masculine within all of us and even culturally is what can rebalance our lives and even the planet. So, you know, Kindred Women's Space kind of evolved from there. It was this need to gather women to talk about this stuff, to carve out time where we could retreat from the noise of the world and really listen to that inner knowing. And when we have the opportunity to do that, I believe we know the next step to take and the way forward. And, you know, there's huge flow on effects from that. If we take time out to connect with ourselves and each other,

understand our place in the kind of divine cosmos, then when we come out to the world from that place, it's very different to, you know, how we're feeling as women currently with all the pressures on us and feeling frazzled and like our nervous systems are shot, you know. Overwhelmed. Yeah, completely. Can you explain what you mean by the feminine? The feminine is really a set of values, I guess, and a place where our values come from. And, you know, I think it's also a returning to a reciprocal relationship with the earth and

with each other. That's huge. You've mentioned that a few times, the connection between getting to know our feminine selves again and reconnecting with ourselves is also reconnecting with the planet. What do you mean when you say that? I think we have been so disconnected from the feminine because of the patriarchal culture that we really find it hard to connect with ourselves on a spirit or soul level, you know. But when we can, we understand our place in the ecosystem, I guess, and that we all have a unique place. Every living thing does. And when we understand that, we can see life's sacredness, I guess. Completely.

I've been reflecting on that a lot because I think it's about noticing, right? Like actually physically being on the earth, walking, noticing and noticing ourselves in our bodies too, right? Because for so long it's been, well, we'll just pretend we're exactly like men and our hormones don't exist and we're not emotional. And I understand why previous generations have done that so that we could get a seat at the table. But actually our hormones are cyclical, right?

That's right. They're cyclical beings and the earth is cyclical. So of course it makes sense that we don't have to be the same every day. The earth isn't the same every day. The earth isn't the same every day. The earth has seasons. And I really love that idea that the more that we notice within ourselves, those cyclical movements, the more we start to notice the earth itself has those same movements and needs rest and nurturing just like we do. And this patriarchal idea of just consume and control and take what we can get and force everything into being the same every day

and the more we get, the more we get, the more we get. No wonder so many women are struggling, right? Totally. Because it's trying to force us into these kind of very narrow boxes and there's so much wisdom that I agree has been lost. And it's exciting to start experiencing feminine energy again. Totally. And seeing it bubble up in so many places.

Yeah. And once you start kind of tuning into the cycles, you can't stop. You just see the interconnectedness of everything, everywhere. And there's layers upon layers upon layers. And sometimes that can feel overwhelming, but I think it's a really nice place to start with your own inner seasons. And once you understand those, then to work your way out and see how they're connected with other cycles, earth cycles, the earth seasons, astrological cycles, the lunar phases. I mean, it's all interconnected and really nature is reflecting back at us. And that's where we can start to heal our relationship with the earth, I think. Completely. Do you want to talk to us about

circles, women's circles and what they are? Well, you know, women have been gathering like this for thousands and thousands of years. So it's not a new thing, but I love seeing women's circles popping up everywhere. I think what women's circles provide is that safe space, you know, that's sacred. We all have girlfriends that we go out with to kind of debrief or decompress a weekend away. But it's not the same as creating this intentional sacred space. And you know, Claire, the thing is when you step into this space, there's a deep remembering. And a lot of women will comment on that, that they remember what it's like when they take the time out to get quiet enough and drop the mask and just remember that we're all the same, you know, to put competition aside and expectation and just show up

as our authentic selves. That's where the magic is, you know. And so women's circles really provide an opportunity for that. And, you know, they hold a lot of power. You know, that's why they were eradicated. Women were gathering like this in, you might have heard the term red tent or moon lodge. No, I've never heard of this. No. So thousands of years ago, you know, when there were still goddesses and the gods in equal measure and there was no separation between those gods and goddesses and humans, you know, women would gather in these moon lodges monthly while they were bleeding. gods in equal measure. And there was no separation between those gods and goddesses and humans.

Women would gather in these moon lodges monthly while they were bleeding and they would be undisturbed for days. It was a time that was understood for deep inward kind of energy and women would gather and chat and rest. And the men would know that they weren't to be disturbed because during this time, women's intertuition was at its highest and it was a time for dreaming, a time for visioning for their communities and for their families. And so, you know, at the end of their cycle, they would come out into their spring and they would be able to bring these transmissions that they'd had during that time out into the world. And so I think there's some real magic there and some great, some great learnings for our modern life, you know.

Completely. I know Lucy Peach writes about this, like our cycle is the phases. So there's that time when you are in deep rest and dreaming when you have your period and then the spring when you come out of it and your estrogen's building, you know, all of those sorts of things. And then the summer when you can kind of like lean into it and you've ovulated. And then that week before you get your period, it's almost like that autumn when things are wrapping up and everything's a bit bristly and heightened and that energy's intense

and we're yelling at our husband or whatever. But you're almost like the rose-colored glasses come off and you see everything as it is. Yeah. And then you can rest again and it's that cycle. When you talk about moon lodges and that's an incredible sort of imagery to talk about goddesses and goddesses and being at one with all of us in that way. Where are you talking about? What is like back in the sort of Celtic times?

Like what is the kind of background to that? I think before the start of colonised religion, you know, before the men kind of came into power and decided that Adam and Eve, Eve was, you know. At fault for everything. At fault for everything, you know, and I think that they've recently uncovered, you know, scriptures that prove Mary Magdalene and Jesus were actually married and that, yeah, and that Mary Magdalene was actually a visionary equal to Jesus. But when Gospel of John, I think, was written, he wrote that out and changed it from a feminine

perspective to a male's perspective. And these are the teachings that have been passed down, you know. Yeah, it's so interesting. I was speaking to my obstetrician when I had my daughter, and she said that she'd just recently been to a lecture where they talked a lot about the history of medicine and how a lot of it stemmed from that Christian belief of Eve being responsible. And there's a line in the Bible about Eve being cursed with pain and suffering during childbirth because of her eating the apple. And she was curious.

Yeah, she was curious, right? And so that subconscious idea has kind of filtered through. And when we talk about women's pain, which has been proven to be less acknowledged and less believed in the medical profession overall, and I have so many women anecdotally who come to me and say they were in pain during labor or their pain in endometriosis goes undiagnosed because it's almost held with less importance. And it's so interesting, isn't it, how it all, when you start to piece all of this together, it's huge. It is.

It's so huge. And it's hard to kind of, it's hard to put into context, you know, because it is so huge. I know there's a historian, Anne Baring, and she talks about the lunar era. And so this was the time when, you know, goddesses were revered as much as gods and there was no separation between the sacred and the human experience. You know, we were all interconnected and God was very much present and goddesses were very much present in the unfolding of our everyday lives.

But yeah, anyway, she talks about the solar era and the warrior culture, which is really 2000 BC. So started a long time before the biblical stories, you know, and now there's this great turning and it's this remembering of the need to balance out the masculine and feminine and how we are going about that in our culture is really to shift our consciousness, I think. Yeah, to bring things back into more of an equilibrium. Because you can see that in the planet, right? Like we just can't keep going the way we've been going, just taking and taking and taking without rebalancing it. And at a micro level, which is often what happens, right? I notice patterns in nature, what happens at a micro level is actually then what's reflected in the macro. Totally. So much. So, I mean,

it might seem like a long bow to draw, but I actually don't think it is because sometimes what we notice about nature and ourselves, we can then have this kind of patriarchal idea that what we think isn't actually true. It's a bit like gaslighting of environmentalists, right? That's right. That's hippie. That's like not really true. That's not really scientific. Oh, go over there, greenies, and, you know, accept that we live on the planet and we rely on it for everything

and we don't have clean air and clean water. If we don't have clean air and clean water, we genuinely can't live. That's right. So it's not airy-fairy, you know, hippie stuff. No. And I think it's the same way that you were talking about with the way we treat women, right? Like if you think about so many women in our lives

in this Western culture we live in, isolated, overworked, exhausted, and you could say that about the planet and nature in and of itself. So how do we start restoring those things for women? How do we change things? How do we begin to be a part of that turning? What do you see? What do you think women need? I mean, that's a big question. It is. That's why we're here, Erin. Yeah, that is a big question. You know, I think, again, it comes down to the values that we hold at the forefront of our culture. And that's not just

for the women to do, that's for the beautiful men to bring forward as well, you know, and that is important in the way that we're raising our sons and our daughters. The values that we're instilling in them to show them that we need the rest phase as much as the harvest phase, and to show them that there is an interconnection between everything and that we need to look to nature for wisdom. And whether that is in returning to cyclical living, I think is really important. And also honouring rites of passage. We've lost, our culture is almost immature because of it, I think. I don't know if you know Bill Plotkin. No. He talks a lot about this, about how our modern culture is quite immature and that in

fact there's eight sort of rites of passage or initiation phases that we go through to become fully adult and living in our full power. But we get kind of stalled at adolescence in our modern culture. And he's been doing a lot of study around this and he writes, he's got a book called Soulcraft, where he talks about the last 30 years of study he's been undertaking, how we might implement some initiation processes in our modern day society to move forward as a more mature culture that can kind of see ourselves in relationship with the earth and each other. But then what Bill Plotkin talks about is having an initiation into proper adulthood, which is where we start asking some big questions. What are our values and why is the

world this way and where do I fit in? And they're really important questions. And, you know, in older cultures, that's when people were taken out by the elders on vision quests or they were sent into the forest for three days, you know, where they could really kind of let go of who they are because of the conditioning that's been put on them and get to know themselves at a soul level. And, you know, from that, understand what they were born to be and what they were born as and what their sole purpose is, I guess. And then from there, understand their place, their unique place in the world and how to then deliver that, you know, into the culture.

And that's when we get a more kind of mature, a mature culture that understands that everything has its place and the sacredness of our interconnection with each other in nature. Completely. And so do you mean as well that we actually, it's not just, oh, now you're a teenager, you're becoming an adult, let's ask you some questions. There's ritual. There's ritual. There's ritual. Absolutely. We need to return to ritual. I think ritual anchors us, you know, and we've lost that. And that's very much what Kindred Women's Space is about as well. And ritual doesn't have to be like, you know, burning stuff and, you know, cards and all these

tools and shamanic kind of drums. And we really just need to carve out space and time where we can access that kind of deep part of ourselves, you know, and do some deep listening. Yeah. And I don't know if other people feel this, but I certainly do. I grew up in a Catholic house and so there were ostensibly rites of passage in that in Christianity, you know, you're baptised, you have your first communion, your reconciliation. Then at, you know, grade five or six, you have your confirmation and you feel like you're becoming a grown up, but they're kind of overlaid by some Christian beliefs that no longer feel true for me in my life. And I feel really, and then going to mass and that idea of every week you're sitting with yourself and your beliefs and the community and there's candles

and it's in some ways such an incredible thing to have time every week to connect to something bigger than you. And the problem, you know, obviously we've talked about that I have with Christianity is the patriarchal stuff that's come front, passed down, the stuff about women not being able to be leaders in those communities, and particularly in Catholicism, I'm thinking of the abuse that's happened. There's so much, I think, that's been taken. And now I'm left, and I don't think I'm alone in this,

left in this sea where I'm like, really, I love a sing song and a candle and a ritual. And I want that for my children. But I couldn't put them in a Catholic school because of what I knew had come through from the church and the damage it's done to the LGBTQI community, to people who get divorced, women who have abortions, like all of that patriarchal kind of control dominance that to me doesn't actually get to the heart of what Christianity was in the beginning. No. And now I'm sort of thinking, well, do I just make up some rituals? But that feels kind of funny.

So I just don't know what to do. And I don't really have a question here other than I'm wondering if you like resonate with any of that too. Claire, I resonate with all of that because I too grew up in a Catholic family and had the same rites of passage and feel exactly the same way in terms of not identifying with that kind of secular religion, you know. But I think there's two things here. I think what my mum always did in particular was connect us to a sense that there is something bigger than ourselves, you know, and if we can instill that in our children,

then that, you know, can foster a sense of spirituality, which, you know, is a beautiful thing. And then in terms of ritual, for me, I found that in family rhythms and still, I'm still finding my feet with that stuff. And it's really hard because I know my kids are getting a little bit older and they're going to remember these sort of rituals and things like that and mark time by those rituals as well, which I think is really important. Because I think as children like that, that kind of going to church before Christmas and having that sacred space to kind of reflect on, even though we might not identify with that now, it did, it created, you know, an openness to sort of the sense that something was bigger than us but also that magic, you know.

The mystery of life, right? The mystery, exactly. And that's what I felt. Like I remember being a little kid at Christmas and you'd go at like the midnight mass or whatever and the candles and the music and I would be like, wow, we're connecting with this incredible thing and there's those familiar songs and I want to give that to my children but I don't want to give them the guilt or the other stuff

that comes with it and the exclusion of certain people and the, you know, abuse of power stuff. Yeah, so I'm glad you say that you're still finding your feet too. And in a way that's the sadness of some of this stuff, right? Absolutely. It's the realising that there's a lot that's been lost from our culture that still exists in a lot of other cultures and particularly, I would say, First Nations cultures too that we have not grown up with. And when you talk about immaturity, that resonates with me

because I feel like, yeah, there's some people in their 70s and 60s who I would think are still very childlike. Totally. In the way they see the world. That's right. Yeah. I know. And so, you know, I wonder, Claire, if it'll be our generation that kind of resets things a little bit. I know what you mean. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. That's right. And even as you were talking then, I thought to myself, we can create our own rituals. I know that Elizabeth Gilbert writes about this and she said something in her book, Big Magic, which really spoke to me and I've not done anything about it, but it sat with me that there is no rule book.

You can decide what rituals feel good for you. And if that is writing a letter and burning it on fire. I know one of my friends did that. She went away for the weekend with some girlfriends. They wrote letters to themselves about all the things in their life that they were going through or they wanted to let go of. They all just burnt them on a bushfire on a beach. And that, to me, whatever that feels good, however that feels in your life or whatever that means, we shouldn't feel like we can't do that. That's right. That's right. And, you know, we're often afraid to kind of step into those practices because they've been labelled as hippie or woo-woo. But in actual fact, there's a beautiful landing

when we kind of connect with those things. You know, we feel it in our bodies and in our spirit. There's a lot of practices that I've been introduced to through attending women's circles and things like that, that are just so simple, but so powerful, you know, just the, you know, our sister's blessing where you ask for something and everyone places a hand on you and energetically offers you the thing that you're asking for in that moment. I mean, it's such a simple thing, but it's a really great practice in using our voices to say what we need and then knowing that if we do, there are people around us that will offer that energetically and answer that prayer. Oh, that's so beautiful. What are some other things that you've learned

from Women's Circles? I think it's really just taking the time out to listen to our intuition and using, you know, there are some tools that we can use to do that, like journaling, some processing tools, journaling, using cards, which is kind of fun to pull and read messages that, you know, we might be hearing whispers of but we need to see a picture or hear some words to really make sense of it, you know. And are they, is that tarot cards? Tarot cards, angel cards, you know, there's all different, all different genres of cards.

Whatever you sort of connect with personally, I guess. And just really getting out of our conscious minds and more into our bodies and our energetic body, you know. When I went to Kindred Women's Circle, you had a sound immersion. So you kind of, I loved that you entered us into that space in so many different ways. So you had the circle set up with candles and this beautiful lighting and journals, but there was also, you know, some yoga that we did. So that was, is that to kind of bring us into our bodies too? And the meditation that you ran,

and that's kind of listening to words. And then the sound immersion, which is a wall of sound and no words. Is that all part of it? Bringing you into, bringing women back into their bodies, into their selves? Totally. And I think sometimes we need a little bit of help to be taken on that journey, but the more we do it, the easier it is to access ourselves. So it's just a matter of practising, I think. Yeah, practising, right, and finding the time in our busy lives and giving it the importance that it needs, right,

because often we think that's the, well, lighting a candle and making, you know, running a bath or something, well, that's like bottom of the priority list. I know, right? You know, all the things. I know. But look, it can literally be five minutes, you know, where you set aside time to light a candle and just connect into that place inside of yourself. That's all a ritual needs to be.

And then in terms of that, taking that out into our families, you yourself. That's all a ritual needs to be. And then in terms of that, taking that out into our families, you know, there's some beautiful, some beautiful practices. And I think you've just got to go with what feels right for you, you know, and, you know. Yeah, we do. What are you grateful for at mealtime? So for us, mealtime all together is really important. And I know that's a luxury that not all families can all come together at mealtime. But for us, that's a non-negotiable. Everyone needs to be there, even if it's only 15 minutes and it's fish fingers. But we're holding hands and we're saying, what are we grateful for, for this day? And that, I can feel it when we've all had arguments getting the fish fingers on the table, there's something beautiful about the shift that happens in our kids and they know that that's something they

have to do every day. So it is, you're right, it's setting up those rituals and routines within our own daily life that shouldn't feel like an extra, but feel like something that's actually good for us. How are you raising your girls? That's a big question. Gosh, that is a big question. I think we're raising, I'm raising my girls in a very different world to what I was raised in. Look, it's a really big job raising girls, that's for sure. There's been times, you know, I definitely don't feel as scared as I did a few years ago. And I think that is because of this work I've been doing, realising that, you know, this next generation of women, oh, oh my God, like they're so self-aware

and they're so brave and they're so resilient, you know. They don't question themselves as much as we perhaps did as young girls and teenagers. I know there is huge problems with anxiety and depression, but I'm really hopeful that we are turning things around. You know, we are understanding that we need boundaries between boundaries of how we consume media and what kind of messages we're giving our girls from a young age and that they need to be equally strong and soft and to understand that they have everything that they need inside of them already and to belong to themselves so deeply that they're not constantly searching

for that external validation. That is probably the most important thing I'm trying to instill in my girls, you know. That we are enough. Yep. We are enough. That we don't need other things. We don't need to buy more shit. No, that's right. Do you know what I mean? Totally.

They're so much more than what they look like and so much more than what they do for a living, you know. And how do you do that? Gosh, a lot of conversation. And I guess I understand that they're watching me constantly. That's a lot of pressure. That's a lot of pressure. You know, I have a lot of girlfriends that have boys

and they often say to me, you know, they feel like at this age, we're still sort of just in the early primary school years, that boys' needs are perhaps a little more simple and that raising girls requires, like, you know, constant therapy. Not for myself, but for them, you know, it's like this walking them through life and knowing that they emulating everything they see in you. So our words are so powerful. The way they see us interacting with the world and in our relationships is incredibly formative, you know, and also acknowledging the men who are raising these girls as well.

My beautiful husband, I know he's there for it all. You know, he's really trying to learn so quickly stuff that he's never been exposed to before. And he's doing a beautiful job. He's setting an example of how men can be equally soft and strong, you know, and be open and make mistakes. And that's just as important. You're so right. I think when you say they're watching us, it doesn't mean we have to be perfect. And in fact, trying to be perfect and being really hard on ourselves is a thing they'll watch and

emulate when they get older, if they think that that's how they have to be in the world. Totally. And I'd love to say to my girls, I'm so sorry. I was having a really bad moment there. I didn't mean that. Or, you know, I cry in front of them and I share how I'm feeling with them definitely more than my parents did, you know. I expose them to that so they can see the full spectrum of human emotion and understand that you need to feel it all because that is how we move through life in a healthy way. Yeah, and that's normal because we're just raising little humans. Children are not like these little beings that then magically they're an adult with all this complex stuff going on internally. They're born with all that complexity. And if we don't show them that, yeah, parents and adults also like feel a lot of things and

their emotions go high and low and they make mistakes too. And I know Carly McGowan, who I spoke to for last season, talked about the repair, that parenting is so much more about, I mean, it's also about obviously trying to be calm and be immortal for them, but it's in the repair. Don't leave your child hanging in a moment unsure after you've had a blowout or they've had a blowout. You go in there and you talk it through and there's the gold. You don't have to be perfect and put all

this pressure on yourself because I think that self-compassion, that's what you were talking about through so much of this, women, right, that we can be so kind to everyone else. But internally, we want our kids to be kind to themselves and to do that, we need to be kind to ourselves. Absolutely. I think that that is the most to be kind to ourselves. Absolutely. I think that that is the most important thing that we can teach them. And also, you know, to understand the world from an altruistic point of view, I guess. And, you know, they're going to encounter comments from other kids at school and being able to reframe that for them and understand why perhaps that person is acting in that way and understanding what's going on for them.

And if they can go into the world looking at it from that point of view and from other people's perspective, then that's a wonderful way to be as well. I totally agree. Because I have noticed already that for my daughter in the world, there's so many more decisions I have to make for her, as in how she dresses, how she looks in the world, there's so much, so many more decisions I have to make for her, as in how she dresses, how she looks in the world, what people say about her as a person, that I didn't feel so much with my son. But there is something about how now bringing my daughter into the world, people just seem to have more opinions about her. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? I was talking to a friend this morning and we were

saying how particularly like, you know, the generation, the older generation will comment, my daughter is particularly tall. And quite often people, it's the first thing they say to her, they comment on her physical appearance, you know, and I just, yeah, I find that really interesting. It is interesting to observe, isn't it? And I think that's what it is, right? That's why it might be more complicated raising girls because they're coming into a culture where my friend flick off and says to her daughter, that's part of the olden days, that's why they said that.

That's great. Because she's got a daughter who's very aware and observant even at four and, yeah, some of the stuff is messed up. It is. Yeah. And it's undoing, it's undoing our own conditioning so that we can pave the way for them, a new way for them. Completely. Absolutely. So what is your vision for kindred women going forward? Where do you see you taking this? I have lots of plans for Kindred Women. I really envisage it to be a space, a community space where women can come and just retreat from the world for a little while. And whether that's for an hour or for a weekend, it just be a space

where they can carve out sacred time for themselves, where they can connect to like a healed sisterhood, you know, where they can have conversations that seem a bit kind of, you know, sticky and where they can drop the mask and just really have those authentic relationships where they can feel joy and rest and a sense of calm so they can really go out to the world and be the medicine that we need right now, you know. God, totally. And we carry so much as women. Like when you were talking about the moon lodgers idea

that they go together, women go together to rest to then go back out, rest is not something that we should ever think is wasted time. Not at all. Not at all. You know, I think the more we honour the phase of rest, the more we're able to harvest in the harvest time, you know. And I, honestly, reading Kate Northrup's book of Do Less changed my life. I read it years ago, but she speaks to really tuning in with our inner seasons and cycles and working with those energies.

And once you do, you really, you can't stop. Like there's just so much power in that. And the rest phase is, you know, equally important. All the phases are important and are a prelude to the next phase. That's really exciting. Well, thank you so much for everything that you're giving to women in our community. And thank you for this conversation too. I know that so many women will resonate with it, I think, because it's about giving them permission to acknowledge those things about ourselves that we're told aren't okay or are a bit woo-woo or, you know, I'll just keep on soldiering on.

You don't need to value that particular thing. It's soft. Whereas the soft stuff is what we should be leaning into in so many ways, right? Our emotional ability to regulate ourselves and notice things. Last question. What are some things that you do in your life? Because I noticed on Instagram, sometimes you share. What do you do in your life to feel connected, to rest, to re-energize? I've kind of cultivated a few personal practices that are really non-negotiable. And that is to move and every day, whether that is literally a 10-minute walk or whether

it's a yoga class, whatever I can fit in, I know I need to shift that energy through movement, you know, so that I can come into my body. I also try and meditate as often as possible. That's not always daily, but I do take time to meditate often. And, you know, I do grounding practices as well, which is, you know, journaling, grounding on the earth, spending a lot of time in nature just walking with my dog I'm really trying to implement things in our family life rhythms that support all of us doing those things as well you know and consuming consciously like consuming media consciously setting boundaries actually this is something I've recently been doing is trying to implement tech-free Sunday. Yeah, so it's... I'm like, how do you do it?

I know. Well, I got the idea actually from a podcast I listened to a long time ago. I can't remember the name of the woman, but she was a Jewish lady. So she'd grown up with the Sabbath and Sunday being a day of rest. So she had actually implemented this, you know, for her family who had teenagers and the shifts she saw and how much she ended up looking forward to that Sunday, you know, meant that they kept this practice for years and years and years. So I suggested that we implement tech-free Sundays to which my husband freaked out. It's like, how am I going to plan for Monday on a Sunday? I was like, it'll happen.

I've really, it's a slow process, I think. It's an ideal and we've done it a few times, but I hope that we will start doing it every Sunday. And, you know, I think that that will have protective kind of qualities moving forward as the girls do go through their teen years, that understanding that we do have agency over how much, you know, we're plugged into the world and that we can retreat from it at any moment should we need to ground ourselves, you know, and collect our thoughts, that we actually have the power to do that, you know. Amazing, right? Because that is

so huge. I've noticed because the routine I know so many people are in is kids down on the couch, what are we going to watch on Netflix, right? And only recently have I started thinking this is not a thing you have to do. You don't have to sit on the couch and watch TV. And also, what are you watching? A lot of stuff that's like violent or like really intense and gripping and I'm loving it, watching my murder mystery. But then I know it's just television but does my body know it's television? And when I stop and I don't always get there because I'm not, you know,

a unicorn like you were saying we take for Sundays. But when I don't do that, when I go and run a bath and I just sit in the bath and listen to music or read a book or something. It is really interesting to observe because I've been consciously watching my nervous system now, been really trying to work on that because I've had some illness and things. It is interesting what that does to us, that tech at night time, which, you know, in an ideal world would all be perfect.

And that's not our fault, right? No. Either. But it's just noticing those things that are perhaps on autopilot and knowing I actually can change that. And it's not a huge thing, you know. And funnily enough, I suggested that we might need to make plans on a Saturday if we were to see our friends on a Sunday on our WhatsApp chat. And

one of our friends, bless him, he's hilarious, but his initial reaction was, I need Insight Timer to do my meditation. Like, how will I survive, you know, a day without that? So he, you know, that was his instant reaction that he needed his device to meditate. So that just kind of is a great demonstration of how far we've gone, you know. Yeah. And that's not our fault. The tech is designed by really expert people to be highly addictive. That's right. It's not our fault. And to be reliant on it, I know, but it's, yeah, it's kind of just, yes, taking a step back and looking at those things, isn't it? And understanding that, yeah, it is within our power to kind of consume that stuff and disconnect from it if we need to. Yeah, completely. And sit back into our

bodies and that we're not going to get it perfect, but just the, I love that idea. The first step is just being curious. You don't have to change anything. Just kind of notice what's happening in the things that you do. One thing I wanted to finish with as well, I've noticed this in my own life and it's a gift that you gave me. When I went to Kindred Women's Circle and I sat there and we had to write intentions and I wrote intention about music because music to me has always been very healing, always, through my whole life until I had a family and I didn't have time for it. And after I went to Kindred Women and set that intention, it was something I brought back for myself. And it felt

like a returning to a part of myself that I had ignored. And I just wanted to say thank you for that because that is such a huge gift. And I'm guessing I'm not alone in the gift that you're giving to women. Claire, that is so beautiful. Thank you so much. And, you know, that's what my hope and my dream for Kindred Women's Space is, is that is a place where women can come and connect to those parts of themselves that they've lost. So that's really beautiful. Claire, thank you so much. Oh, no, because I do think that we talk about all this stuff as being out there and, you know, the patriarch and all this stuff, but in essence it's a loss of ourselves and what we can give

to the world and to our kids. And it is sometimes incredibly hard and sad to realise, you know, because once we're still we can see it. That's right. We need to feel sad about that stuff because if we're not sad about it, then there's no call to action, is there? Exactly. And often thinking about that analogy of the seed that has to fall apart

for that tree to grow. Totally. Yep. Yep. And, you know, my journey here certainly hasn't been linear. that has to fall apart for that tree to grow. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, my journey here certainly hasn't been linear. It's been really messy and I felt crazy at times and like I'm falling apart, you know, but from that falling apart, definitely I've connected to the truest version of myself, you know.

Yeah. And what a gift. By being you, you're giving to other people, you know, because other women see that and go, actually, there is a different way of doing it. You don't have to walk around with a giant placard that says, guys, you should be resting more. Remember femininity?

But just by being you authentically. Thank you, Claire. Welcome. Yes. Thank you for the beautiful work you're doing. Thank you, Claire. Welcome. Yes. Thank you for the beautiful work you're doing and raising women's voices and having these beautiful, important conversations. Oh, I think the more we do it right, the better. Building a different future for our girls and our men

and, you know, our non-binary people too to sit in. Absolutely. It's really exciting. Exhausting but exciting. So more rest for us. Yes. I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful.

Me too. So where can people find you if they want to get involved? Well, people can find me on Instagram at kindredwomen and I'm just about to launch a website. So perhaps by the time this podcast is put out to the world, there'll be a website too. So that will be kindredwomen.com.au. Fantastic. Okay. And there's some ideas for retreats and things there too. There is. So basically for the rest of this year, we've got monthly women's circles and a couple of retreats coming up. So one of those retreats is a surf and yoga retreat,

and that's going to be very much all about getting back into our bodies and settling our nervous systems. And then coming up in November, I've got a wilderness immersion weekend. Yeah. So, I mean, don't you ever crave just like wild swimming, painting your body with clay, sitting by the fire, drumming, laughing, like your feet on the earth, sun on your face. That's what this weekend is going to be all about. It's going to be really connecting with nature and getting in touch with our inner wild woman. Yes.

The more wild women, the better. I know. Right? For sure. I can't wait. Well, thank you so much, Erin. Thank you, Claire. Thanks.

You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonte, and this week with the wonderful Erin Flucan from Kindred Women. You can follow Erin at Kindred Women on Instagram and you can follow me at Claire Tonti on Instagram too or you can find me at my website www.clairetonti.com. Okay, to email the show with guest suggestions, head to tontspot at gmail.com. If you wouldn't mind leaving a rating, a review and subscribing to this episode. It helps it get made and found and seen and I would so love it. And if you feel like you have a friend in your life who might love this episode, I love getting sent podcast recommendations. It's how I find all of mine really. So if you wouldn't mind sending it along to them, if you feel like they'd

love it, that would be wonderful. Thank you as always to Raw Collings for editing this week's episode and to Maisie for running our social media at TonsPod. I also have another podcast on a Thursday with my husband, man, James Clement called Suggestible, where we review everything to what to read and listen to. Well, not everything, the things that we like and we give you recommendations. So we have a lot of fun along the way as well

and make fun of each other too. So that's Suggestible on a Thursday and Tons comes out every week on a Friday. That's it from me. Have a wonderful week. Bye.