TONTS. - Living Fearlessly with Rhiannon Joyce

Episode Date: April 25, 2022

My guest today is Shameless Media's Rhiannon Joyce. Rhi is an integral part of the Shameless team – spear heading brand partnerships which is an integral role in growing what is a really fresh new approach to media. If you haven’t heard of Shameless let me fill you in. Co-founded by Zara McDonald and Michelle Andrews two young women in their 20s in 2018 –it started as a podcast called Shameless a show for smart people who love dumb stuff. Think: Pop culture! Hollywood! Influencers! Reality TV! Basically, all the things we’re told we shouldn’t care about, but secretly do. Fast forward to 2022 and Shameless is now a media company that also represents a community of whip-smart young people who connect via Instagram, TikTok, an ever-passionate book club, and a weekly newsletter called ASK SHAMELESS. After launching they have quickly become a leading voice for Gen-Z and Millennial Australians. With more than 40 million podcast downloads, 280,000 social media followers and 40,000 newsletter subscribers under their belts, they have also grown from a team of two to a company of seven. Today, the team that works to bring you Shameless every week comprises of Co-founders Zara McDonald and Michelle Andrews, Partnerships Director Rhiannon Joyce, Podcast Producer Annabelle Lee, Content Coordinator Ruby Tonzing, Researcher Justine Landis-Hanley, and Video Editor Sarah Ruhullah.Rhi talks today about how she came to be on the Shameless team, about being a young woman in the advertising space at a high level and what she loved and also hated about working in that environment. About her incredible mum and the role model she gave her for womanhood. We talk about fear and career ambition and what happens when you are a strong opinionated young woman. Rhi also talks about her first meeting with Zara and Mich and what it took to take a leap of faith and join their team. She also talks openly about living alone during lock down and what she has learnt about looking after her mental well being. Rhi is wise and warm and funny and as a friend recently coined an entire vibe in and of herself. I was so thrilled to record this conversation at Shameless HQ and cannot wait to watch Rhi’s star continue to rise. For more from Rhiannon Joyce you can head to @rhiannonjoyce or you can find Shameless Media at https://shamelessmediaco.com/For more from Claire you can head to www.clairetonti.com or @clairetonti on instagramYou can email the show at [e-mail] credits:Editing - RAW Collings and Claire TontiTheme music - Avocado Junkie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Taunts, a podcast of in-depth interviews about emotions and the way they shape our lives. I'm your host, Claire Taunty, and I'm so glad you're here for season two. Each week I speak to writers, activists, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans about their stories. And I'm so thrilled to bring you a very deeply feeling human today in Rhiannon Joyce. Now, Rhi is an integral part of the Shameless Media team, spearheading their brand partnerships. If you haven't heard of Shameless Media, let me fill you in. I interviewed their co-founders, Zara and Mish, well, Zara McDonald and Michelle Andrews back in 2018 when they were first launching for my other podcast called Just

Make the Thing. And these two young women have built the most amazing business since then. They started with a podcast called Shameless, which is a show for smart people who love dumb stuff. Think pop culture, Hollywood, influencers, reality TV, basically all the things we're told we shouldn't care about, but secretly do. And back in 2018, which really isn't that long ago, there was no one speaking about this stuff, which you can't really imagine now. They felt like there was no one really speaking to young people about the things that they were really into. And so they hit on the zeitgeist back then. Fast forward to 2022 and Shameless is now a media company

that also represents a community of whip-smart young people who connect via Instagram, TikTok, an ever-passionate book club and a weekly newsletter called Ask Shameless. They have become a leading voice for Gen Z and millennial Australians with more than 40 million podcast downloads, 280,000 social media followers and 40,000 newsletter subscribers under their belts. They've also grown from a team of two to a company of seven. And today I'm going to introduce you to their Partnerships Director, Rhiannon Joyce. Now, Rhiannon talks today about how she came to be on the Shameless Media team, about being a young woman in the advertising industry at a really high level and what she loved

and also what she hated about working in that environment. Rhiannon talks about her incredible mum and the role model and blueprint she's given her for womanhood and how to sort of manage it all and have a career. She talks about meeting Zara and Mish and what it took to take a leap of faith and join their team in a really new kind of way of working when she'd been in a really traditional safe job before that. She also talks about what she's learned along the way in navigating career changes and living alone during lockdown. She's wise and warm and funny and just a whole

vibe in and of herself. I totally think you should go and follow her on Instagram. She's super aspirational, I think would be the word to describe Bree. I was so thrilled to record this conversation at the Shameless HQ and get to see where the girls are working and understand a bit more about what they do. I loved every minute of this and I hope you do too. I can't wait to watch Rhi's star continue to rise. Here she is, Rhiannon Joyce from Shameless Media. Hello, Rhi. Hello. Oh, it's so nice to see you in person.

I know. It honestly makes the biggest difference, I feel like, already the energy is. Totally right, because we already did this interview, but we did it in like horrible lockdown when we were both like struggling and the sound wasn't working and it was terrible. So how are you feeling coming out of lockdown now? So much better, I feel. Like last lockdown really messed with me, to be honest. I felt that I was at a point where I was very fatigued,

very over the whole experience, and I did struggle quite a lot, particularly with my mental health. I just did struggle quite a lot, particularly with my mental health. I just did things that I felt I needed to do to make it better, put a little bit more extra work and time into myself and like creating boundaries, particularly at home, working from home. I live on my own. So I was working from home, living on my own and didn't really feel like I had that separation between the two. So yeah, that was challenging, but I just introduced like my own boundaries, made sure I got out for my exercise when I was

allowed to. And that definitely helped. I am loving being back in the office. I am a typical extrovert. I really just feed off other people's energy and just being back with the girls and the wider team. We've grown as well. So we hired Sarah in lockdown as our part-time videographer. So it's so nice to come back and see everyone and also have fresh faces and just adds to the dynamic of Shameless. So it's been really nice. Oh, it's so good, isn't it? How did you find living by yourself? What were the things that you put in place, those boundaries to help you kind of navigate that isolation? I had to be really consistent with myself in terms of my routine. I felt that when I did have a clear routine and I had clear goals throughout the day, that that made me feel a

little bit more fulfilled. Sounds a little silly, but honestly. It doesn't at all. This show is all about looking after what's going on in our heads. So anything that works, fire away. We all need it. Okay. The main ones for me were definitely, I would wake up consistently around 6, 6.30 in the morning. I felt that I made time for myself. I did start meditating, which is something I've never done before. Really, really basic 10 minutes, just breathing exercises. And then I would just go for my morning walk and coffee, made that time for myself. Alternate between listening to music and podcasts. I did find listening to podcasts this time around in lockdown a little bit challenging. I think just

because I do work in the audio landscape, it was nice to kind of switch off. So I was leaning more to music as my place to escape, or I would call my friends in other states or a few of my friends in Sydney were going through lockdown for the first time as well. So I did find a lot of solace and comfort in talking to them and like them coming to me and leaning on me for that experience, which we obviously being Melburnians had a few times. Yeah, we were old hands at the whole thing, really. So that was very much my morning routine. And I just found when I would have meetings, I actually opted out of Zoom quite a lot this time. And I felt that did help a lot. I think traditionally of my job, a lot of it is networking and relationship building.

And before COVID, that was very much face-to-face or on the phone. And then Zoom and Teams obviously became a big thing during COVID to get that face-to-face connection. And I totally understand that. And I do think in the early days that was really valuable, but this time around I found it quite debilitating. So I just made that acknowledgement and decided that only when it was essential for me to be on Zoom was I on Zoom. So our internal whips to see the girls and check in, that was really important from a leadership standpoint, but also presentation. So if I had to present something that was a bit more bespoke and integrated than absolutely face-to-face, but I opted for the phone and it was actually, But also presentation. So if I had to present something that was a bit more bespoke and integrated, then absolutely face-to-face.

But I opted for the phone. And it was actually, it alleviated a lot of stress for me as well. So that was something in the workplace I found really helped. Yeah. Do you know what? That's so interesting because I found that too. I hated Zoom. Yeah.

And then I heard that it's actually because in reality, in the normal human interactions, we're never up close with someone unless we want to have sex with them or kiss them. Or we're like really angry at them, right? And you get in someone's face. And so having to stare, A, at your own face, but B, up close, all these other people's faces actually makes you physically agitated. I know. You know what I mean?

I was getting agitated with my vanity because I kept looking at myself and I was like, get over yourself. Like, but everyone does it. We've seen all the memes. I know it's not just me because I kept looking at myself and I was like, get over yourself. But everyone does it. We've seen all the memes. I know it's not just me, so that's fine. But I totally feel you in that sense. It did become a little bit like, this is weird.

I know, totally. I feel like that I Drink Wine song by Adele really summed up a lot of my feelings about this, like just I need to get over myself. I know. Just all the things that you're seeing in your face. But, yeah, I feel like the phone, it's like podcast, right, because it's just audio. It's sort of you're seeing in your face. But yeah, I feel like the phone, it's like podcast, right? Because it's just audio. It's sort of you're able to get more personal and be focused. I think a lot of people were doing all the same thing.

Everyone's looking at themselves all the time. Yeah, no, and you're way more. Yeah, you are very focused when you're on the phone as well. And I did notice that this time around. So yeah, that was something work-wise I felt really helped. Totally. I wanted to ask you about, well, not vanity exactly, but more about womanhood because I'm really interested in our early experiences of womanhood and how that shapes who we become.

What were your early experiences of womanhood? Not necessarily vanity, but like, you know, what idea did you have about being a woman when you were little? It's an interesting one for me because when I was thinking about this question when we spoke last time, I kind of reflected and was thinking about what we discussed. And I do think for me personally, I didn't really come into my own as a woman until my late teens, early 20s. I do think I was quite a sporty kid growing up. I was very focused on basketball. I was very close with my sisters and my mum, and they were great examples of women, particularly my mother. Worked full-time.

She had four kids under five. She then went on to study her PhD and work full-time, raise us. My dad travelled a lot for work, so I think in terms of like a really strong female role model, my mum was like the best it could get in that environment. But I don't think I really appreciated that as much until I was a bit older. I just saw, I guess, my experience as a child and like womanhood as being like, I don't, can I say tomboy? I don't know. I don't have to

say that. Look, you know what? I think it's a term that everyone understands what you mean. And we've moved past that, I think. But when we were growing up, that was definitely a term, right? For a girl who was showing more masculine energy, I guess, which is kind of crazy. Not crazy, but you know, strange when you think about it now. It's an odd one because I do think with hindsight, I reflect on that time and I'm like, I was very much a tomboy. I played a lot of sport. I didn't really identify as enjoying traditional. Sort of like girly stuff, feminine stuff with bows and, you know, all of that. It was never me and it wasn't my sisters and my parents, you know,

they really encouraged us to just kind of embrace what we loved and sport was a huge part of what I loved growing up. And you had a really competitive environment, right? Yes. And you have a twin sister. I do, yeah. So I have a twin sister. We are all incredibly competitive. It's, yeah, like at points I was like, this is not well.

But I think that's natural. And what I really respect my parents is that they created boundaries for us to not be hyper competitive where it was, they created an environment where it wasn't negative, that competitiveness. So it was very much encouraged and harnessed to be like, be the best version of yourself, make sure you're putting in effort, but don't let that take away from who you are or lash out or like anytime we have displays of like, you know, when you're a kid and you're growing up, you get frustrated with something doesn't go your way, particularly in sport, like playing basketball. My parents would not have it. They'd be like, that's not how you deal with conflict or emotion. You need to kind of go inwards.

And like there was a lot of those conversations when I was younger, which I now look back on and I'm like very lucky in that hyper-competitive environment that those conversations were had because it makes you make sense of how you think and feel as opposed to just kind of leaning into that emotion and thinking that that's fine. But my sister and I, Taylor is my twin, I'm one of four, we definitely developed a bit of competitiveness as we got a bit older. I think particularly in school, my parents made a very conscious effort

for us to have our own sense of self and identity. They put us in different houses when at my school that was not a thing. You were in the same family, you go into the same house. My parents put in special requests for us to be in separate houses. Wow. Is that because then you would compete against each other in sporting stuff? I think so. My mum told me it was because she always felt like people would position us

against each other even if we weren't doing it to ourselves. So she always felt like there was this subconscious bias to us for us to be competitive. And she wanted us to create our own lanes and create our own opportunities by being in different houses. What that meant was that so everything you did at my school was house orientated. So whether it be sport related. So, yes, we competed against the other houses, but captaincies, awards, anything that was academic or performing arts, it was all related around your house. So it actually would have been worse for us

to be in direct competition in the same house because we would have been competing for the same roles and opportunities. Whereas by being in different houses, what that meant was we could take the opportunities that we wanted and felt were right for us. I went more down a performing arts sports path. My sister is incredibly intelligent, overachiever, did really well in like wordsmiths and art and sport as well. But what it allowed us to do was like carve out our own independence and identity within the school.

Honestly, I think it was one of the best things my mum did for us. Wow. She sounds like such an insightful person. She is. Yeah. And are you identical? No, we're not. We look nothing alike as well. Really? So you wouldn't know. That's so interesting. No, I'll show you a photo of Taylor after. Oh, I would love to see that. Absolutely. Oh gosh,

that's so interesting. How did you feel the world responded to you and to your sister, I guess, being competitive women who, or girls who are into, who are into sport and traditionally more male pursuits, particularly from the generation that we've come through, like growing up back then, how did you feel like the world responded? I think because sport was a huge part of my family. So my dad was a professional basketball coach and my brother was a professional basketball player. Truthfully, I think it was expected for us to be quite athletic and sporty. Interestingly, I do feel like that's where there was a little bit of a struggle, particularly because female sport, there aren't as many professional avenues that you can explore beyond junior level. So I do think for Taylor and I there was this intense desire for us

to be the best versions of ourselves and be really successful in our chosen sport, which was basketball. Unfortunately, both of us did do quite well growing up. But what was interesting was we kind of got to a point, and we've had this conversation before, where we didn't feel like there were options for us. Wow. Yeah, so that's always disappointing when you feel like you're not the best

in the sport, so you're not going to go to the WNBL, you're not going to get picked up by the AIS. So what are your options then? Do you just keep playing because you love the game and you enjoy it and that's it and then you pursue other opportunities, whether that be go to uni, start working full time? We had pretty early conversations about what our options were. And I'm talking like 15, 16. So I think it's really interesting that you're at that age and you're

doing something that you love and are really passionate about, but you're also conflicted because you know that you're not the best. I'm good. I believe in myself and I can do anything. But I also have this realistic mindset that we don't have the same options that men have in that sport, particularly basketball. So at that age, I felt like the expectations were us to be good. And I think we met those expectations by society's standards. But in terms of what our internal expectations were, it was like, well, we don't really have other options. So I can't make a career of this, even though I'm really good at it. Yeah.

And even women right at the very elite level of basketball don't make that much money. No, exactly. And a lot of women, I mean, we're seeing this play out in AFLW, a lot of women work two jobs, even in basketball as well, same thing. They go to uni or they have jobs, and then they do training on the side. And that's the reality for women and that's unfortunate, but that comes from years, and to your point earlier, that generation, that comes with years being behind, there not being the investment and the interest from a junior level that transcends to the professional level.

We didn't have the academies, we didn't have the volume of people who were interested in female sport at that time. And that's where a big gap was created. So I am excited for the next generation because you can see it happening now even in the AFLW. That transition from junior to semi-pro to pro is so much more fluid and I'm really excited and happy for young people, particularly females, to have that opportunity.

Like I look at my cousin. She's an incredible summer. She lives my cousin. She's an incredible summer. She lives in Queensland. She's an incredible AFL player. And I'm so excited that she can see the opportunity for herself to actually play AFLW because, you know, she's, I think, 15. I was having a very different conversation with my sister about what our options were than what she's having

with her parents right now. And that's great. and I'm happy for them because, yeah, we didn't have that. Which is when you reflect on it, it's so unfair. It's just so unfair and it makes me think about my friend's brother who plays not even for the VFL in footy. He plays for a club. It's his career but it's just I don't even really know.

I don't know that much about football. No, so. But But you know, he's not, it's not the VFL, like he's quite a few steps below, but he still makes very good money and had a huge amount of interest and investment in him. I think it's a suburban club. Yeah, I had never really thought about that before, that those opportunities just aren't there. What has sport taught you when you were going through it? What has it taught you about your approach to life? Discipline, huge part of my structure and how I approach my work life now. I think there are certain expectations when you play sport at a junior level to even like quite a senior level where you have to make time and compromise. And I think even being able to have those conversations with yourself and your parents early on helps you prioritise the things

that are really important for yourself. And I do really value that lesson, particularly in the workplace now. I also think teamwork, I know that sounds very cliche, but being exposed and working with different types of people in a sporting team because generally what happens with sporting clubs is that you have a group of people that are pulled from all different places throughout one city. So, for example, I lived on the Gold Coast. You know, I went to one school but I played basketball with a group

of 10 girls that went to eight different schools. So the types of people that you're working with. Well, you are. You're working. working with, you're playing with and building rapport and a sense of teamwork with are very different. And I think that really prepares you for the workplace because sometimes what I think you lose at school is that you fall into the habit of falling into a certain type of group or you identify with a certain type of group of people and then you stick to that. Whereas sport gives you the opportunity to work with different people and then when you're in the workplace, it's like, well, you don't get to choose who you get to work

with. That's not a luxury that you don't just get to pick your best friends to do your assignment with or run the relay with. It's always like, oh, I'm going to go with my friends. And it was the same in basketball. Everyone was selected to be there and you have to learn to work together and be cohesive to be successful. And it's the same as a team in a work environment. So interesting. Where did you go? So when you were 16 and you were talking to Taylor and you were debating about what to do, what did you decide then from there the trajectory of your career would be? Truthfully, I decided I did really want to explore full-time work. I think I had this weird obsession with not knowing what I wanted to do as such. I didn't have

a clear vision of being like, I want to be a lawyer, I want to be a doctor. I just knew I wanted to work full-time and build a career somewhere. And once I kind of be a lawyer, I want to be a doctor. I just knew I wanted to work full time and build a career somewhere. And once I kind of made that decision, I started to speak to people around me. Very fortunate that my parents, family, friends, I'm very close with. And even as like a teenager, I always asked a lot of questions and was very inquisitive. So I could get an understanding of what the people around my family were doing and what industries they were in. And you will know this being exposed to media, media is not an industry that people know about

unless you are exposed to someone who's in that industry. So I was fortunate enough to have a family friend who was in media and we just got chatting. I really loved and respected this person. I always felt warm around them and felt inspired by how they went about their day today. And we just started chatting about what he did. And he was telling me, and I'm like, this sounds really fun, but I like don't really understand what it is. Like, what is this in theory? Like, what is media? And then I kind of grouped it in the advertising basket, because I think at the time I was heavily exposed to like

Mad Men and a lot of these like ad world shows and I was like, oh, advertising seems cool. Like I want to make ads. Like that's fun. That's, you know, see it on TV, lifestyle wise. That's cool. And also I feel like I'm good with people and I was like I'll just lean into that relationship building side of things.

I might not be the creative person but I can be like the accounts person. I can manage the relationships. So yeah, I just kind of developed this interest in advertising and media and decided that that's what I wanted to do, all from a conversation with a family friend. And like, I'm sure you'll be aware, there is no subject at school that... No. No, advertising is not a subject. It's probably like one part of a business subject that is your expectation is to do a couple of pages on how did you promote this business, but there's no real theory or structure around it. No, but I feel like a lot of schooling is like that. I don't think I learned a lot of things. Like a cooking class that actually teaches me how to prepare meals or something would be, you know, what is superannuation.

I would love to do that. We always have this conversation about around tax time about how great it would have been if we learned how to do our tax returns at school. Like why was that not a thing? Exactly. So much of it. It's so ridiculous. So there wasn't any kind of avenue for you. I guess there's sort of media studies, but I don't even think they would have been helpful

because the industry moves so fast, right? And it was very theory-based. I think once I decided that I did want to explore the advertising media world, I made a very conscious effort just to talk to people who were in the industry to try and understand all the different elements of it because there are a lot. You can go into communication. You can go into PR. You can go into advertising, creative, media.

I could go on. So I just tried to understand as much as I could. And then I actually went through the uni application process quite early on. So I went to Bond University on the Gold Coast. It's a trimester uni, so it operates similar structure to the US. So that meant I had to apply earlier than what most students did. So I knew I was going to uni and I'd been accepted into Bond halfway through year 12. So I didn't even have to, I mean, subject to your final results. Fortunately, that all

worked out. So I went through that process earlier on. The reason why I chose Bond was because they had a very broad degree of communications and you could do electives for the first year and then work out what your major actually was. So again, similar to the US. And I felt that that was the best thing for me because I did have this broad understanding of communications media, but I didn't understand what I actually wanted to do yet. So fortunately, that worked out being the right choice. I just felt it was right and it worked out. And it's worked out really well for you, definitely. I wanted to ask you about being this really competitive, strong woman. I know we talked about this before. What is it like

in the advertising industry once you get out into the workforce? What has been your experience? My experience in the industry has been very layered. I have had really positive, inspiring experiences, particularly with management and growth and feeling valued. And then I have had the complete opposite. And media is traditionally a male-dominated landscape. I think in terms of career progression, there is a clear linear trajectory for you to be successful. So I felt early on, I was very disciplined and dedicated to just working my way up. A little bit tunnel vision, I think in terms of my internal development, I kind of, looking back, I feel like I ignored a lot of little red flags. And that may be what compromised my values and myself a little bit. And when I say that,

I don't mean anything like massive. It's just like boundaries around your work-life balance and thinking it's very normal to work seven till seven. And that's expected. And that's what's required of you to get promoted and to get recognized. And I just did that because that's expected and that's what's required of you to get promoted and to get recognized. And I just did that because that's what you had to do. And, you know, work was my life in the earlier stages. And I just knew that I had to work really hard to be recognized as opposed to doing really good work to be recognized. I do feel like early on that was the expectation. Then I found myself at a point in my career where I didn't want to just fall into the rat race of agency and feel like I'm just burning myself, burning the candle at both ends, truthfully. You know, I wanted to be able to have a proper lunch break. I wanted to be able to go to

the gym and not have people look at me like I wasn't doing my job. Things like that I felt earlier on. Yeah, early on I just feel like with hindsight that was what was expected and that's pretty standard expectation. Across the advertising industry, do you think? And in a lot of those kind of corporate jobs? I think it's corporate jobs as well as advertising has this obsession with like the early 2000s and the 90s of like the good old days. And I'm like, they weren't good.

They were terrible. And, you know, the lifestyle might have been great and people were doing fun things, junkets, whatnot. But in terms of the working conditions, not great. I even found myself, like I started full-time work in 2013. You know, I started working straight after uni. And again, like I said before, the working conditions, it was expected you work seven till seven.

It was expected that you don't take a lunch break. And, you know, if you are invited to events after work, you go because you're lucky to be there. And it's just very expected behaviours. And now I just feel I have very different boundaries. I think as I matured and I got a bit older, I started to realise that it was okay to say no to things. It was okay to take your lunch break.

Absolutely. My goodness. Do you think that that is a masculine energy in that? Were there a lot of women working with you or was it mainly male dominated? Definitely male dominated. I think 80% male, 20% female. I had incredible role models in the early stages of my career that were female. And then I do think that kind of dropped off in that middle phase of my career. When I moved into a sales role, I felt that sales is, so when I say sales, I mean advertising sales, heavily male

dominated, especially in a leadership level. There weren't a lot of females that I really saw as role models or people I could lean on. And I do think that culture and the expectation of get shit done is driven by men. Rather than the quality of the work. Yeah, and I'm quality over quantity always, I feel, and that's something that I still to this day really value and clear boundaries.

It's hard when you're in an environment where that is encouraged and expected. Yeah, completely. It doesn't strike me as very conducive for people who want to have kids either. Not at all. Do you think, is that one of the reasons why women drop off or do you think? 100%. Yeah. I think so. And this is obviously subjective, but I do think women have to get themselves to a position where they feel like they can come back and they can be

in that position for a while. I think there is this, I need to be at this level and then I can have a baby. Because if I'm not at this level, then I run the risk of being replaced by someone who is younger than me, ambitious, whatever that may be. I mean, I don't, I obviously don't have kids. I have a lot of friends in the industry that do have kids who have been able to find a dynamic that works really well for them. And some of them are in very senior leader positions and are fortunate enough to be in businesses where they have felt supported to take time off and have children and prioritize that. But then I also have friends who have not had that experience and have felt pressure or judged to make that decision. And I think that's just subconsciously, that's something women experience that men will never have to. Or they don't, they're not made to.

No. And I think culturally there needs to be a shift and in some workplaces it is happening, right, where we're looking at parenthood as parenthood, not motherhood. And those hours, the seven till seven and that kind of rollercoaster, the hard drinking, all of that stuff. Yeah. And I've seen that in the advertising industry. The deals get done at three o'clock in the morning and the party.

On the golf course. I don't like golf. I saw a great tweet the other day that just said men invented golf because they don't want to ask their friends to go for a walk. That's so true. I love that one. I've seen that as well. And it's true. Yeah. And I do think that realistically, going back to what you said at the beginning about setting up boundaries and looking after your mental wellness and your headspace, all of that is conducive to better, more thoughtful, more considered work and a better quality of work, right? And I think just working seven till seven, I mean, what kind of quality

of work are you doing if you're hung over while you're doing it and then you're drinking till all hours of the morning and, you know, and I'm sure there's lots of great work that's being done, but I also think there's probably, you can do things very efficiently in a shorter amount of time and still be able to get to the gym and have a life outside of that. Exactly. And that's what I was thinking the entire time you were just saying that is it's great to be able to feel pride in your work, but what you want is to feel pride in every aspect of your life. Now that is hard to achieve. You can't have it all, and we all know that. I know, it's sad, but I do think the older I get,

the more I really value my time outside work as well and creating space with the people I care about most and really valuing that and not letting work infringe on that or bleed into that time. Absolutely. Going back to your mum, I know we talked about it already. I already know, but listeners, they have no idea about the story of your mum. So do you want to tell us about her? My mum, well, what's most interesting and comes to the forefront of my mind is the conversation we've already had around boundaries. Today, I feel

that was something that my mum taught me very early on. And I think she's been able to accomplish a lot. She's been very successful in her career. She has a PhD. She also raised four kids. Whilst my dad was traveling quite a lot. So my dad was away for extended periods of time. And, you know, my mum had very clear boundaries around what the expectations were for us to contribute to the household as children, what her expectations were as a mum and being there for us as a mother figure but also as a role model. And I think when we were younger, coming back to discipline,

there were things that were just expected of us and we contribute to the household. We all had chores. but also as a role model. And I think when we were younger, coming back to discipline, there were things that were just expected of us and we contribute to the household. We all had chores. We all had really clear jobs that we had to do. And if they weren't done, like, we were reprimanded for that. So fury, yeah, right down. You know, mum was the one who facilitated all of that for us. And, you know, as I got older and as I started to have conversations

with my mum about making decisions and feeling conflict over prioritising myself in situations, it was so great to have my mum there because she was the perfect example of it being okay to make decisions for yourself and not feeling this pressure that as a female, and I think this is something that females do feel, is that you have to be selfless and you have to give up yourself for other people in order for you to be fulfilled. And my mum didn't do that.

She didn't ever give up on herself or what her dreams were and what. Oh, I'm getting upset. No. She sounds like an amazing person. I think at times where those decisions are always the hardest because you do feel conflicted, I always went to my mum for support and I always knew that she would give me really sound advice. And if she didn't think it was actually the right thing to do and I had to be, give a

bit more, she would tell me. But I also knew that if she felt like I was giving too much of myself up in a situation, she would be the first to be like, what do you want? What is important to you? And I think to be able to have those conversations as a young woman with someone that you really look up to and you can see, I could see my mum doing that for herself.

And I just had such a profound respect for her to be able to have those conversations with us very early on as well. So, yeah, she's great. Yes. I feel emotional now too. Oh, sorry. No, that's just so, I'm sure your mum would just be so thrilled to be talking about that.

Yeah, she would. And, you know, even to this day she's still that person I always count on for really sound advice and she is just very worldly, very experienced and very calm and a realist. So when you have conversations with her, you know that what you're getting back in return is the most sound advice. It's not subjective. It's not gaslighting in any way.

It's not like, oh, well, what do you think? It's always from a place where she has your best interest but also wants you to have the best outcome as well. What's some of the best advice she's given you? This is going to sound very funny. I love it. My mum and I love Strictly Ballroom. I love that. Okay. So there's this quote in this film, my mum always says this to me and she says,

a life lived in fear is a life half lived. I love that. And we always say that to each other because I think fear can get in the way of so much progression. And when I think about when I first moved to Shameless, that's what that conversation happened. And I was fearful and I was scared and I didn't know if it was the right thing to do. I did in my heart, but I remember being like, this is a risk. And my mum and I had this conversation after I left the conversation with the girls and she was like, I just feel like this is what you need.

You need to be somewhere where your values are heard and you feel respected and you're moving into a place where you're more fulfilled in your day to day based on the people that you're around and the content and what you're putting out. And she said to me, a life lived in fear is a life off lived. And I was like, you are so right. I need to make this decision. So it's not mum's advice but it kind of is because it's kind of our motto. Yes, that's so good. Paul Mercurio. I know.

Oh, my God. It's always a funny one because I feel like it's that film where people either love it or they hate it. Yes. My sister and I always argued because she always thought that the blonde dancer was better like, better at dancing. Tina Sparkle. No, not Tina Sparkle, the one that goes with the guy who's, like, all tanned.

What's his name? She wears yellow at the start. Oh, my goodness. No, Paul Mercurio's partner. Yeah. And she always thought that she should, like, he should end up with her. Oh, really? I think you've missed the whole point of the movie.

That's not it. No. I know. What is it about that movie that you both love so much? Other than obviously the iconic quote, a life lived in fear is a life I've lived. It's beautiful, isn't it? That's what you can title the episode. Yes.

Oh, my gosh. You've done my work for me already. I love it. What I love about the film is the soundtrack, obviously, is beautiful. I think the cinematography, it's set in Australia. It's quite like, it's that Kath and Kim sort of vibe where it's, you know, they seem very Bogan and very naff, but it's just such a lovely story. And I feel like the coming together of the different families

and the dad is actually the star for me. Remember, you know, his dad was a very good dancer. Yes. I feel like if you haven't seen this movie, I'm sorry, I'm the star for me. Remember, you know his dad was a very good dancer. Yes. I feel like if you haven't seen this movie, I'm sorry, I'm ruining it for you. Well, what have you been doing your whole life? I know. It's been out since what, like the 90s or something?

Yeah, I just loved just the character development. They all had their own little story and it kind of all came together in the end but it's just like a beautiful piece of film and it's Australian and I love that. Sorry to be sentimental. No, I loved that. And even just the dresses, the costuming. Everything.

Oh, Tina Sparkle out there with the pineapple hat on. She was just everything because I used to do dance. She was just everything I wanted to be. And then the trajectory of Fran and just all the lines in it. I know. That are so iconic. One minus. Oh, my goodness.

What is it about the dad in that? Why is he the staffie? I think because his character develops throughout. Like at first you kind of think he's no one, like he's a bit of a nothing character, a bit of a filler character, and then you start to realise that he is a very integral part of the story and also his son's growth. Like I feel like when they have that moment together

and he's like kind of confronting him about like the truth and he just wants his dad to be honest with him and be really, I guess. Vulnerable, I guess. Yes. Vulnerability, that's exactly right. Like to be very vulnerable with him. It's so beautiful and, you know, just the scenes of him dancing downstairs on his own, he'd put the music on.

I don't know if you remember that. He'd be in the basement of the studio and that's where they saw him a couple of times and he'd be doing like the rumble or something downstairs on his own and that's when the son was like, what is he doing? Like he doesn't dance. Yeah, he does. Yeah, and he was this iconic dancer who then kind of made up his own steps

and then everyone was sort of thinking, what are you doing, making up your own steps in ballroom? You can't do that. But that's exactly what he was doing. Yeah. That connection that he could have had with him and that sense of feeling like he would have felt like he belonged earlier on had they had that conversation or been vulnerable and opened up to each other.

Oh, that's so nice. So beautiful. And that's like sort of the relationship you have with your mum. Oh, 100%. I love that. Do you know what it reminds me of? At the end scene when he's dancing the steps, the Academy want him to dance and then his dad stands up

and says something like, we lived our lives in fear, fear, fear, fear. And it like echoes around their room. That was so good. If you haven't seen the film, you're going to be thinking, what is happening? Put it in the show notes as well. Yeah, I will. I might even play a little clip of it because it's so good.

And then he just completely changes it up and then Fran comes on and they have this amazing dance. It's so beautiful. I'm definitely watching that. Oh, me too, for sure. So was that a pivotal movie for you? Huge, yeah. Yeah.

Did you have any others that were like really formative for you? I definitely had a few TV shows and films. I would say, weirdly, The Hunger Games was like very pivotal for me. I think Katniss Everdeen was, I mean, obviously Jennifer Lawrence. But I read the books and then obviously the films came out and I just found her to be incredibly inspiring as a teenager. And obviously that story is like quite dark. It's set in a dystopian scenario. But in terms of being like a really strong female leader, speaking out, having a strong presence and that being inspirational to others as opposed to it being, I mean, it was positioned as a threat

but I think, you know, overcoming that and it being. She was sort of challenging the leadership, right, and challenging the status quo and trying to take down that kind of hierarchy of the wealthy who had everything and then everyone, most people didn't have anything. So she was really talking about equality, right? Exactly. And being brave and kick ass with a bow and arrow.

I know. Oh, yeah. Is it bow and arrow? I guess that's right. She's an archer. Oh, okay. That's like, I don't know what the official term is, but yeah, bow and arrow, I think. Yeah.

But I loved The Hunger Games. I really, when I was a kid, and it's so funny when I reflect on the shows that I used to watch as a child. I used to watch a lot of anime. So I watched Sailor Moon, which is a show that's based on this girl group. They're kind of from the moon and supernatural, but then they are reincarnated on Earth. It sounds funny, but.

It's so good. They're superheroes and they're essentially there to defend humans. So Usagi, who is the main character, again, is strong female, but she's also very vulnerable and a bit more emotional in when she's herself, not when she's Sailor Moon. And I think that that was one of the first shows where I saw vulnerability and it being like, she's crying, she's upset, she can't make decisions and, you know, if you went and watched the show, you'll laugh at over some of the things that she has to make decisions about. But in terms of vulnerability and being emotional as a female and then equally being strong and powerful and being the only one

that can really save the world was very interesting because I don't think we saw a lot of those types of characters, particularly played by females, in pop culture or TV, especially cartoons. I think they were very male-dominated. But I also liked that for all her weaknesses, there was someone in the group, whether it be Sailor Jupiter or Sailor Mars, who filled that gap. So they were actually stronger as a unit as opposed to her being the strongest individual. There were clear gaps in her strengths and her skill set

and they were matched. Yeah. So I kind of liked that when I was a kid. And then it's interesting, you kind of go through, I think for me that teenager phase, I watched a lot of Game of Thrones and I read the Game of Thrones books. And again, I feel like you have such a broad spectrum of characters that make up the world of Game of

Thrones. And there's so many strong female characters that you can despise, like Cersei, but you equally respect. Correct. So yeah, I think Game of Thrones had a huge influence on me, particularly through my uni years, both the books and the TV show, I developed quite an unhealthy obsession with that show. What is it about Cersei that you found so compelling? Cersei is very complex. She was undeniably determined to get what she wanted. And that was scary at times. But her love and her protection for her children and going above and beyond to do anything to protect her

kids. I don't think anyone can argue against that, particularly in a show where everyone was essentially bad. There was no real good guy in that show. In the end, everyone was murdering everybody. Yeah. And also like deceit played a huge factor in it, lying and whatnot. So yeah, I think for her, it was just like this undeniable sense of protection over her children and her family and that being a huge priority for her. It was just very admirable. And she was also just incredibly intelligent, obviously very manipulative, which isn't something you definitely like. I respect in the context of the show.

Yeah. And in some ways though as a political mover and shaker, I think sometimes women, I mean, there have been stereotypes about women being manipulated or whatever, but I think for men, they're allowed to be because they're in a political sphere and they're a leader and they need to be able to do that, whereas for women it is. It's seen as like one of a better word, bitchy or something.

Yeah, of course. You know, whereas her being able to make power moves, I'd be like, yes. I know. Yeah, there were a couple of scenes where I was like, that was so boss. Yeah. But also so many people just died. I know, and this is so terrible. I know, and even when she has to walk naked through this.

I know, very powerful scene. She holds herself and then she collapses at the end. We're talking about vulnerability. That's where you also see a side of her where she is genuinely willing to do anything to protect her family to the point of like utter disgrace of herself. And I think up until that point she'd always been so poised and so beautiful and like even the long hair and the cutting of the hair was so symbolic in that show.

It was like she was reborn and that's when she became far more jaded and far more scary. Yeah, yeah, and like tended towards psychopath kind of status, you know, murdered more people. Not that we're thinking people should be murdered, but just that it is so interesting that fragility, right, of women or people, I think human beings are essentially fragile. It's just that some people cover it with a whole lot more stuff.

What have you learnt moving to shameless and working in this space? What have you learnt about the power of vulnerability? I have learnt so much. I feel like Shameless is the first workplace I've been in where I've felt really safe. And when I refer to safety, what I refer to is being my most vulnerable and genuine self and not ever feeling like I have to hide something about me or how I'm feeling or how I'm thinking.

I think Michelle and Zara have cultivated this environment where vulnerability is encouraged and also feeling okay after being vulnerable is encouraged, which is pretty amazing. How does that help or enhance your work? It makes me want to work harder. I think I have such a sense of pride about being part of this company and being part of this vision. I feel as though every day I come to work, I'm genuinely part of something that can make a change. And I know that sounds a bit earnest,

but it's how I think and feel. And that's so exciting to be in an environment where that's how I feel. In what way? Like what change do you see? I see us being at the forefront of conversations. I feel like we're not reactive, we're proactive and that's exciting. I think we always want to be on the mood. We want to read the mood and make sure that we're being respectful of it and, you know, we're not ever making people feel ostracised or they're not part of this community. We want this community to always be welcoming and that's exciting to be able to... Inclusive. Yeah, inclusive and to be able to harness something that is inclusive and people do feel safe. Yeah, it's beautiful. And I think you hit the nail on the head then about being proactive

and being on the front foot because so often in media in Australia the conversation starts with a quite male-dominated focus, right? Like even News Reports Forever have had mainly male content. We haven't had that kind of celebrity culture and fashion and, you know, which men love as well. Yeah. But being able to see a media organization that's so organically for such diversity and young voices too, right? I

think is just so admirable and exciting. Oh my goodness. I know. I love it. And it's true. Yeah. I feel very proud to be part of this business. Yeah. So what is your role at Shameless? So I am the Marketing and Partnerships Director at Shameless. It is a bit of a hybrid role. I essentially work with Michelle and Sarah on bigger brand projects. So for example, at the start of the year, we rebranded and we essentially created core pillars under Shameless Media to really solidify the touch points that we had with the community. We knew we were connecting with our community in a different way than other businesses because we had multiple touch points, but we really wanted to hone in on those touch points

and give them a sense of purpose and give partners and our community a really clear understanding of what those touch points are and what they mean to us. Sorry. So I guess they're our pillars. So essentially, Shameless Media, we have three core pillars. We have podcast, social, and newsletter. Those are the touch points that we have with our community. And essentially, each touch point has a unique role from a branding perspective, but also from an audience perspective. So when it comes to listening to the community, we want to make sure that each of those touch points can stand on their own, but also work better together.

So we want our listeners and our community to feel like they can follow along, all three. So for example, we want a shameless community member to listen to the podcast, follow us on Instagram and read the newsletter because they're getting three different touch points with the brand, three different experiences that can live on their own but are also very complimentary. Yeah, that makes total sense. That is so impressive to say in that way because I have just had no training at all in media or marketing. So I'm like, cool, touch points, I'll put that in my dictionary. And then the second part of my job, So the second part of my role, so marketing and partnerships director, partnerships is essentially I'm responsible for managing the relationships between shameless media and brand partners.

So we operate on an advertising model. So brands sponsor shameless podcast episodes so that we can keep our content free for the community and keep pushing out really valuable content. My job is to make sure that the brands that we work with reflect the values and the interests of our community. So it's pretty important, if I might add. It is very important. No, it's hugely important.

And I think that's the joy, right, of Shameless, that you've got such an incredible community who have listened from the beginning, who love Mission Zara and are following what you do and your message is so clear. So it must be fun. It is. And I think that's the biggest point of difference for Shameless Media is our community. And it's something I am and I know the girls are incredibly protective of when it comes to working with different brands. And we're always taking on feedback and advice from our community about how they engage with the brands to make sure that we are aligning

with brands that reflect their values and their interests. And, you know, we have a pretty vigorous process when it comes to, I guess, auditing. It sounds a bit clinical. Or reviewing. Reviewing is probably a better word to say. We have a very considered process when it comes to reviewing the brands that we work with.

And it's my job to make sure that we're never making the audience feel like the content comes first always and the community. So content and community over revenue always. So it's my job to make sure that we're protecting those two values first and foremost, because we're so proud that we have a community that are incredibly engaged. And we know and I know from a brand media perspective that that's really valuable to brands. And, you know, I never want our community to be taken advantage of by a brand. I would never allow it. Good on you.

Yeah, you're not thirsty, but you're Katniss Everdeen out there being like, stay away with your archery bow and arrow stuff going on. I totally agree. And I think really at the heart of it, right, is connection and that's what's so valuable from, yes, from a money marketing perspective but really essentially from human perspective. Absolutely. Right?

Because podcasts and what you guys make make people's lives better and make them feel less alone which is at the heart of things, right? Absolutely. It's so beautiful. Hey, I know people are going to want to know this. How did you meet Mish and Zara? What was that like? Mish, Zara and I actually met at an event through a mutual friend.

So this mutual friend was actually the person that ended up putting me forward for the job. We met, what year are we? I'm not even sure. Yeah, I know. It's a bit like that. We met in 2019 at this event. I was just introduced to them casually. I was already a shameless listener, big fan of the girls, and we just spoke briefly, maybe about 15, 20 minutes. And then 2020 May,

I received an email from Zara McDonald to my work email. And I remember reading it being like, Zara McDonald. And I was like, what? And then it was intro'd through that friend, Pat. It was like, Pat, pass on your details. We just want to have a casual conversation, nothing serious. Just want to get your thoughts on a potential opportunity. And I was like, oh, okay.

She said yes straight away, of course. I'm not playing hard to get. This is absolutely, yeah. And it was like the fire in my belly was instant from that email. I'm nervous for you. Oh, I am like nervous even recounting this story. But yeah. And then we met very casually, just had a chat. They kind of talked me through what their vision was, what they were looking for. I asked a couple of questions because the girls hadn't really, so prior to me coming on board, they'd worked with an influencer manager who is very experienced in social media landscape and influencer negotiations, but they were looking to transition

more so to shameless media being a business. So that is something that we're very adamant on, is that people understand that Michelle and Zara aren't influencers. Shameless media is a media company. So that was a very considered decision for them to bring someone in-house so that they could solidify that position. And I had a lot of questions around what their vision was, who did they want to be, what did they want to carve out

in the media landscape. And this conversation went for like an hour and I was like, I've got to go. I'm actually working. I'm sorry, I'm just too busy. Yeah, and then from there we had a few follow-up emails and then I met with them maybe two or three times again after that. I ended up doing a presentation to the girls about my vision

and what I thought where the growth opportunities were and what we could do together. And, yeah, I think it's funny because I did feel in my gut that this was the right thing to do, even though it felt I was a little bit fearful, more so the fear of leaving a very traditional job that was very secure in a time like COVID. I think I was like overwhelmed by that risk factor of it, but I just knew and coming back to my mum, the conversations I had with her around the values alignment,

being inspired by Michelle and Zara, being, you know, they're a couple of years younger than me, but being able to work in an environment where I'm surrounded by young people who are ambitious and motivated and are determined to make a change. I was just like, I have to do this. So I did. Yeah. And you haven't looked back, right? No. And I just, honestly, when I think about that decision to leave and be part of Shameless, it was the best decision I ever made. And I hope the girls feel the same. I think they do. I'm sure they do.

But, yeah, even what we've been able to achieve in the last year and a half and to be able to see the team grow, the content grow as well, like introducing Scandal, repositioning Shameless Media as a strong brand has been something that I've been very proud of to be part of. It's so exciting. Congratulations. Thank you. And I can't wait to see where you go from here.

I can only imagine the heights you guys are going to get to. Yeah. Next year will be big and I'm looking forward to it. Have you got big plans? We do. Secret plans? Can we find out any of it? Oh, classic, like watch this space. All right, watch this space.

No, I think next year our intention is to explore Shameless Live again. I think, you know, coming back to the community being such a huge part of our brand and really important to us, it's so important that we have that engagement with them. And Michelle and Zara have the opportunity to connect with them face-to-face and, like, everyone's craving it. And we don't know what the show will look like I think it will definitely be different to what we've done in the past because we have changed the format of Shameless Media so we did retire

in conversation we've replaced that with Scandal which everyone is loving so that was obviously a very good decision to have made but in terms of the structure of the live show I think it's still up in the air of how it will look but I know it will be really meaningful and the community will love the experience because our intention is to make it better than what it has been in the past. So they can have faith in us. Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Last question. What is your overall philosophy on life? There's two things I believe in wholeheartedly. The first is making time for yourself and setting boundaries. I do think preserving your mental health, giving yourself time every day to go inwards and be conscious of your existence and how you think

and how you feel and try and make sense of that, even if it's just for five minutes, will profoundly impact you for the better. And I think the more you do that over time, the more it becomes part of who you are. And I just think it's great to have those check-ins with yourself and be honest and be vulnerable. So that's the first one. And then the second one is I think when it comes to being vulnerable, it's okay to have a moment and then feel like you weren't

the best version of yourself as well and accept that and like move forward. I think sometimes vulnerability can encourage maybe an outburst or a moment where you're very upset or you're really frustrated. I think how you behave and how you understand why you were in that point or why you were made to feel that way after math reflection is really important. Don't beat yourself up for having a moment. We all have a moment. Yeah. I think try and make sense of that and if you can't, let it go

because it's just going to eat away at you. Exactly. You're going to have frozen the whole thing really. Just let it go. It's self-compassion, isn't it? And I think women particularly can be really hard on themselves and it doesn't serve anyone. I've met a lot of blokes, for instance, who are not very hard on themselves.

No. And maybe should be, you know. And I think, yeah, you're absolutely right because in being vulnerable and honest someone else is allowed to also be and give themselves room for compassion and then you meet each other in a more human, compassionate place. Yeah, and I think when people don't expect you to be vulnerable or it can surprise people and also make them feel more like you've

just normalised a behaviour and you've normalised, you know, I don't believe in like having a meltdown and then not reflecting on it or making sense of it. That's not constructive but I do think, you know, yeah, there is a time, there are going to be times when you're not the best version of yourself and you do have a moment and how you pull yourself out of that and how you move forward says more than the moment itself. Oh, 100%.

Thank you so much, Marie. No, thank you. I'm so glad we got to do this again. Oh, and in person it just makes so much difference. It's been so beautiful and I cannot wait to see where you go next. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Okay.

Thanks. Bye. Bye. All right, you've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with the wonderful Rhiannon Joyce. Now, for more from Shameless Media, you can head to shamelessmediaco.com and you'll find all their podcasts, newsletters, their book club, everything you need to know to follow them on social media as well

over there. And for more from Rhi, I reckon you should go and check her Instagram out. It's just, it's glorious. At Rhiannon Joyce or Rhi Rhi on Instagram. She's also on TikTok too, so you can head over there and check out what she's doing. And also her new media agency that she does with Zara and me, she's called Sana, S-A-N-A. So you can go over and check that out too, if you're someone who is in need of those kind of services. Okay. And for more from me, you can head to claretonte.com or follow me on Instagram at claretonte. I also have another podcast that's a recommendation show that comes out every Thursday called Suggestible with my

husband, James Clement. We make fun of each other and recommend you things to watch, read, and listen to. So if you like that kind of thing, head on over there. That comes out every Thursday. Tons comes out every Monday. And there's a season one of Tons with lots of different interviews, including ones with Claire Bowditch and Jamila Rizvi, Zainab Johnson, just lots of different people. Tarang Chawla. So I really encourage you to go

and check those out if you enjoyed this interview with Rhiannon as well. Okay. Thank you as always from Royal Collings for editing this week's episode. And I'll talk to you next week. Bye.

I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak and write today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present, and emerging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been ceded.