TONTS. - Matrescence Festival with Amy Taylor-Kabbaz, Dr Melanie Jackson & Vicki Chan

Episode Date: September 21, 2025

Welcome to third episode of TONTS. Season 5 Matrescence Festival edition, join us as we look back through our Melbourne festival from March 2025.In this episode you'll hear from previous speakers Amy Taylor-Kabbaz and Dr Melanie Jackson in a Q&A style panel and closing with more beautiful poetry from Vicki Chan. For more from our speakers you can visit: https://amytaylorkabbaz.com/ & https://www.melaniethemidwife.com/For more from Claire you can head to: https://www.clairetonti.com/ or her instagram @clairetontiFor more from Lizzy you can head to: https://www.lizzyhumber.com/ or her instagram @lizzyhumberAnd to keep up to date with past and upcoming Matrescence festivals you can follow @matrescencefestival on instagram or go to https://www.matrescencefestival.co.ukOriginal theme music: Free by Claire TontiEditing: Maisie JGSocial Media: Surabhi Pradhan Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak and write today. There are wondry people of the Kulin Nation and pay my respect to their elders past, present and merging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been seeded. I want to acknowledge the people who have given birth on this land, raised children on this land for generations connected to country and spirit. Hello, welcome back to a special edition of Tontz. I'm Claire Tanti. And I'm Lizzie Humber and we are the co-founders of Matrescent's Festival. Listen along with us as we share live episodes from the festival in Australia that took place across two days in March 2025. So in episode one, we heard from the author and journalist Amy Taylor Cabaz and the midwife and poet Vicky Chan. And in episode two, we've just heard from the experienced midwife and podcaster Dr. Mellon. Lennie Jackson. Now in episode three, we invited Melanie and Amy to have a short discussion following their talks with Claire and I, and we go a bit further into their relationship to the word matressants.

And then at the end of the episode, Vicky will come back and she'll share some more of her brilliant moving words. Just to let you know a little trigger warning that in this episode, there are references to infant death and birth trauma. So let's go. Okay. Welcome. Lise, I'll pass to you first. So thank you. both so much for sharing your stories and sharing your experiences. We wanted just to give you a moment just to express, what does metrescence, that word, when you first discovered it, where is it now in your vernacular? Like, what does it mean for you that word, metrescence? Can we come to you first, Mel? Well, it breaks down the idea that we're having a medical experience. We're not having a

medical experience when we're pregnant, birth, birthing and parenting. So metrescence gives power to the journey that says actually we're becoming a parent, we're becoming a mother, and metrescence is that journey. It's not a medical journey, it's a life journey, it's what our bodies are designed for. And it brings it back to community and it takes it out of the hands of the medical dialogue. So for me, it's taking back what's been taken by the medicalisation of childbirth. Yeah. I can't click with my left hand. For me, matrescence is my beautiful teacher, Dr. Orally Athen at Columbia University,

once said to me, words create worlds, Amy. and when we don't have a word, we don't know what world we are in. We can't understand our world. And over the last how many years, I've just seen this over and over again, like in DMs and messages and everything, women just say, I thought it was just me. I thought there was something wrong with me. So metrescence to me is this unifying word

that finally helps us understand the world that we're in as mothers. and I hope breaks down this belief that it's this individual isolated experience and instead connects us all together. And then the third and final part for this word for me is that I think, I believe, I deeply believe it has the potential to change the whole world

because it's how we look after our earth, it's how we look after our elderly people, it's how we care for each other. and if we can come through this lens of this beautiful transformation where what we used to care about, like in my story, my definition of success, is broken down to now look at rest as success, being there with my kids as success. I never saw my daughter, my first child, get dressed for school for the first six years of her life because I was at work. For six years, I never gave, I wasn't there for breakfast. It took me a long time to figure out that that doesn't feel good to me anymore.

what I think metrescence does is allows us as women to say I've changed and I value this role in my life more than other things now and makes us feel empowered to be able to do that. Mel, I just wanted to ask you a specific question. So when it comes to birth, I think we've heard some things like I remember thinking, oh there's hypno birthing somewhere but mainly I'll do some breath work and I might have a podcast on I had Michael Boo Blake not very helpful

and a yoga ball but for you when you're going to a woman and say I know this is a big question what kind of radical options help her in her birthing experience maybe it's art or creativity

or is there some things that you think people don't know that might surprise them Just note, and this is not what medicine will tell you. It will tell you when you're in labour that you're in a credible risk. You're a ticking time bomb. Anything will go wrong at any time, okay? That's the message. So you better be in hospital with all of the tools and all the healthcare providers

because when it all hits the fan, we are there to save you. It's not true. So I think at first, taking fear that fear out, We've been convinced to be frightened of birth. And the reason it's important that we're frightened of birth because when we're frightened, that means we will submit to whatever solution is offered to us. And the current solution in this society is go to hospital,

get a doctor, have medical care, that we will save you from all of this danger. So the main thing that I think makes a difference in birth, is realizing actually your body is on your side that it's designed to keep you and your baby safe. And so if you're with somebody who understands that also and understands how to optimize your own physiology, you're actually kept very safe.

And so I'm not answering your question, Claire, I don't think, in the right way. No, no, you're doing a really good job. Okay, thank you. I'm realizing. Yeah, I just wanted some strategies, I think. Yeah, strategy. And I guess while you're talking as well, we're not saying that things can't go wrong in birth, are we?

No, no, not at all. But you can optimise your physiology, you can give yourself the best chance. So when you understand birth, you understand sometimes it doesn't go right. In the same thing as our whole lives. Most of the time my digestive system works just fine. But I've got friends whose digestive system is trying to kill them. You know, there's other, in life, in all of our function, it either functions well or something's wrong and then we need a doctor

and we need someone to help us. It's the same in birth. Most of the time, our bodies are capable of functioning in this way, of growing and having a baby. Sometimes it doesn't go well, and there's something wrong, and we need help. And so I'm not saying that that doesn't need to happen. But if we assume that everybody's having this medical journey that's going to go wrong, then we're treating every pregnancy in birth as dangerous and scary,

and women are scared of every single birth experience. And then they don't open themselves up. We're actually wired for joy. for birth. So I laughed my second baby out. That's what I was trying to get you to say. We should melt on me this on the podcast that we did and I just couldn't speak. Yes. I was like, what? Well, we're wired for joy. But joy can, we only make space for joy if fear isn't there. Because the joy is, so oxytocin is like this really dominant hormone that takes over in our bodies. It's what gives us contractions. And there's this whole oxytocin system

in our body, but in our baby's body as well. And what we also know is that oxytocin is transferred like a pheromone. So if you're in the birth space, other people in the birth space are blissed out by this oxytocin, which is amazing because birth builds families. It doesn't just make a baby. It makes a mother and it makes a family. So if you've got loved ones in your birth space, then they are all falling in love with you, they're falling in love with the baby, you're falling in love with each other.

And then you're creating this whole community that just is heavily invested in the well-being of each other. And so if we, but fear blocks oxytocin and all the endorphins. And so you don't get to experience the joy and the happiness of that moment if you're constantly scared that someone's going to die. So if you have a trusted care team that is on your side, like I mentioned in the talk, and you feel like you're in a safe place with safe people

with what you need to let go of fear and know that everyone around me is keeping me safe in so many ways, physically, emotionally, socially, psychologically, spiritually. They're all here to keep me safe. I just get to enjoy the labour process and the oxytocin allows that. We actually are designed to feel that.

And, you know, so as my second baby was coming, I had this irresistible urge to hysterically laugh. so much so that I actually couldn't stop it if I wanted to. And my midwife whispered to the other midwife, what is she doing? I was like, I am so happy right now. Literally, I felt down and most of her head was emerging in that moment. And I was just laughing hysterically.

And she came out and she, you know, actually I didn't even notice, but she wasn't in that great condition. And I was like, oh, I didn't. And my midwife was like, Mel, you might want to bring her around a bit. I was like, ooh, hello child, come on. And anyway, she was fine. But they were there managing that. I didn't notice that she hadn't taken a breath yet.

They did, though, because that was their job. I was just like, bliss out. And we're wired for that. So what I want for women is to be in an environment that doesn't hinder that. And, you know, that's the possibility that what we're capable. of. Thank you, Mal. That was a long story. No, that was wonderful. Thank you. We just have time for one more question

because we want to get Vicky Chan back up here for her beautiful poetry. So I think I'm going to ask you each, what would be your vision for the future? If you could change something, whether you want to make it magical thinking or whether you want to make it a tangible thing, what would you change to allow women to have,

who are entering matressants? What would you wish for? them. Can we come to Amy and then back to Mal? Oh, that's so hard to answer quickly because I have this whole plan. What I hope is that everybody on the planet knows what metrescence is and just like, can't do it with my left hand, but we'll try, just like we now have full community understanding around adolescents and we drop our judgment of of the incredible behaviour that sometimes our adolescence portray. And we have special systems and structures and doctors and understanding. So therefore, that ride through adolescence,

although it is still incredibly tough for so many, everyone around them knows why. I want that for mothers. I want us everywhere in the world to understand that in this period of time, there is a reason why she's doing what she's doing. and it may not always make it the smoothest ride still. I think, as I said, I think some of its purpose is to crack us open and make us decide who we're really going to be.

But if we could have the support structures around that, then I know we're going to do it better. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I can come at it from a midwifery perspective. If every, this is a utopia, I imagine. So a woman gets pregnant, she's not fearful thinking, that's it, now I'm, you know, a ticking time bomb. And then she goes, do you know what I want? I want to have my baby.

Let's hypothetically say she wants to have the baby at a birth center or at home or at hospital or in an operating theater. She goes ahead through the menu and chooses where she might want to have her baby. And then she goes on through the menu and she picks her care providers. She's like, these are the people I want with me. And then they go, yep, sure, we can help you with that. no problem, and then she's got this amazing care team who she has who she wants, she gives birth where she wants, and then she's listened to you afterwards, and there's this whole beautiful community around her to care for her in her

postpartum, early postpartum, and helps her to find her new self. That would be a utopia that would kick women into metrescence in a way that I think would allow them to enter made instead of broken. Thank you. Can I just add, you were talking earlier about putting motherhood on your CV and thinking that would be something you would carry on. I put motherhood on my CV very proudly. I put that as the first thing. I talk about I've birthed these children and this is a job that I'm doing and I'm really proud of it and I really loved that you said that even though that was part of the conflict. We actually are working really hard to work with corporates to completely change the way they view mothers after.

maternity leave and to actually talk about some of the amazing brain changes which you're going to hear from Winnie later and to see them as often we have to send people away for leadership retreats to make them better managers we just also need to hire the mothers because they've already done that. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. Please give Vicki a really warm welcome. While our beautiful team, we've got two beautiful blokes here from our tech team setting up the lectern. I wanted to also take this opportunity to acknowledge those in the room who aren't mothers

themselves or have had a difficult journey through that process. The word mother is not just for those who have given birth. There are so many different reflections that we can find in that word mother. In fact, it's at a life stage. talking about that with Jane Hardwick Collings more tomorrow as well. And if you are in her workshop this afternoon, you might have that as part of your experience. But I really wanted to acknowledge that we all bring complex emotion around the word mother, but we mother our friends, we mother our communities, we mother the earth, we mother our bodies

and ourselves. and that's part of what this community around matressants is. It's that we are mycelium networks connected deeply, like the roots of trees in a forest, and we all need each other. And so I just wanted to say that I see you and acknowledge you wherever you are in this journey and that you are welcome in whatever shade of colour, shade of blue, I love blue, it's my favourite colour.

Whatever shaded blue you are in this big, beautiful rainbow umbrella. Okay, and without further ado, I'll bring my wonderful friend, Vicky, back onto the state. Claire told me I was a poet, so here I am. I need a lectern because I was only still writing on Thursday night before I flew Thursday morning, and my daughter printed it out in really big writing. but yeah this first poem i wrote in morocco my children were grown and you know that finding yourself in a different stage of life i i went in 2020 early 2020 virus smyrus i had been to the clinic in Kenya and if you want to know what women are capable of that clinic working with an impoverished the most

challenged group of women I've ever encompassed, like in my life, they have, and only since they're doing the work, this work, right? Because birth in Kenya is a very dangerous thing to do. But in that clinic, they've had about, we're into our 14th year, about 6,000 births, 96% normal birth rate, including twins, breaches, V-back, you name it, with minimal staff, they're incredible. But that's what women can do. Not a single catastrophic bleed, no third and fourth degree tears. This is what women can do. It's incredible.

So I sat upon, in the desert, I sat upon a carpet. It was very old and very worn. And I slept upon it and I thought of the women who'd sat upon it before and the families. And I wrote this poem, this carpet. This carpet holds a story and more. If you listen closely, it might tell you one. Not all, of course, but maybe one or two. Some are of women birthing, then settling the babies at the breast,

quietening them so as not to wake the men. The men, too, have sat upon this carpet after days walking heavily laid in camel, but now they are sleeping. Children have played, lovers have laid. Some stories can only be told in whispers Or the promise of secrecy Remember the time the king sat upon this rug Talks of road and war

Went deep into the night Much coffee was served and some was spilled See, the stain is there still But I've said too much already Now it is the travellers who come to this carpet Artists, writers, poets Frivolous purveyors of words and pictures of little meaning.

Art is here in the waves of the sand and the curve of a sleeping woman. Here in the blueness of the sky and the cry of a baby. Here in the rising breath of mint tea and smoke from the fire. Here in the carpet, this holder of stories,

this keeper of secrets. Interestingly, I came out of the desert where there was no internet, no communication. This was in March 2020, to a million messages, mostly from my children saying, Mum, we need you. Come home. Okay. I'm often asked if I'm still doing that midwifery thing, as if it's a job that I do, or a uniform I could take off or maybe retire even. I always check by, answer by checking my pulse and nodding.

If the heart is still beating, I'm still doing that midwifery thing. I'm not sure what happens after you die, but I'm kind of hoping I can come back and do some more. If you hear a voice on your shoulder, it'll be me. I started writing, and it got really, really long, so many stories, because I wanted to tell you about the time I barred the door and said she'll have a cesarean over my dead body, to which the obstetric said that can be arranged she birthed that baby though I wanted to tell you about the time

I removed a three metre snake from outside a baby a newly born baby's room and called it extension of midwifery services she was fresh out from the UK and she thought that snake and it may well have eaten her baby It's a big one. I am a midwife.

Your lives are bound up with mine. It is a passionate path where miracles happen every day. I have seen things that others cannot imagine in their dreams. I know the height and breadth of joy that human life can encompass and the darkness and depths of pain some are asked to endure. just on Thursday this is not part of the poem but it's part of the story I had a call from Susie 35 years ago on that day

I had attended the birth of her daughter Bella and at the moment of her birth a brilliant stream of light came in and shone upon the baby it was one of those just magic moments and the epitome of the blissfulness of this midwifery life but before her second year was up she was injured and died in an accident and I want you to know we remember those babies we remember you I'm a midwife I'm into my fifth decade of this work far from the 15 year old girl who walking home from school

had the thought come into my head I'm going to be a midwife I'm not sure I even knew what one was but the thought was there. My mother, when I told her, she was peeling potatoes in the sink for dinner. She didn't even turn around. Don't be ridiculous.

And refused to discuss it further. And yet here I am. I am a midwife. I am flexible of heart, mind and body. A chameleon, invisible if need be. A shape-shifter, willing and able to bend and change my form and move to where she needs to be, into what she wants me to be and what she needs

me to be. I am a midwife in my blood, my bones and my skin, in the air that I breathe and the soil on which I work. Grateful for the gift bestowed upon me and grateful for having the strength and determination to live the life I was born for. I am a midwife. Okay. Sorry. Elton John says, Sorry, seems to be the hardest word.

Seems to me Elton John is not a woman. And most certainly not a woman in labour. We're sorry, slips from the lips as easy as soft ice cream drips from the lip on a hot summer's day. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I made your day busier. I'm sorry, my blood pressure makes me feel dizzier. I'm sorry, I winced as you pummeled my belly. I'm sorry, my armpits seemed to be smelly. I couldn't help but drop to my knees.

You tell me to breathe, but I seem to freeze. but I seem to freeze. I'm sorry, I can't answer you now. I'm sorry my noises sound like a cow. I'm sorry I cried and messed up the floor. I'm sorry, I'm soft and now crying more. I'm sorry I spewed, I peed, pooed and farted. This all seemed so hard, and I've only just started.

I'm sorry, I'm weak, and I'm sorry, I'm scared. I'm sorry, you want to put your fingers where? I'm happy for help if that is what's needed but sorry I did want to give birth unheeded I'm sorry you didn't get to read my birth plan I did send a copy and I have one on hand I'm sorry I really am trying to push I'm sorry I did mean to trim down my bush

I'm sorry did you say you're ending your shift right when I'm birthing well that's really disappointing what a little girl's made of what a little girls made of what a little girls made of sugar and spice and all things nice why why is it even now in a society where women are educated earning and seen can still look in the mirror and not see the queen overtly and covertly we learned as girls young I am am to be nice and hold my tongue and what I can be, but that which I should, and most of all, that I should be good. But birth is wild, and so must I be. Here I am, standing in my vulnerability,

love me, hold me, leave me alone, see me, show me, don't tell me what to do. I am. I courageous, untidy, noisy, inconvenient, difficult, quiet, if I want to, unapologetic. I see my fierce self, my get things done self, my brave, daring, plucky self, my passionate don't give a flying ducky self. I hear the voice of the dragon coming from within the howl of the wolf, the roar of the lion, growly sounds, vowly sounds. Oh, oh, think. A vowel is a sound which when passing through the mouth is not obstructed by any of the organs of speech.

Oh, like, ah, like, oh, oh, ah. Don't think, don't think, sink, sink, deep into that ancient limbic brain, deep into waters, deep into silence, deep into sound. Ah, ah, ah, oh. Bedroomy sounds. Bathroomy sounds. No room for manners. I cannot be polite.

I will not be sorry. I'm in full flight. I stand in my nobility queen that I am embracing my fertility, safe in my fragility. I am champion of my own ability. I am surrounded by those. who love me, know me and trust me, I am not afraid, and I can be fully myself. Thank you, a time check.

We've gone over. Okay, that's fine. I've got one little thing that I learned about being a mother. For me, my metressence was so simple and easy. I was so lucky. Pregnancy tried to kill me, but what I learned about babies is encompassed in these two lines. Every baby is born with a thirst for milk, human touch and forward motion. Wasn't that just incredible?

Vicki's words were so moving to me and I think her sorry poem might just be my favourite of her works. Okay, thank you so much for listening. into this, episode three. For more from me, you can head to at Claire Tonte on Instagram. For more from Lizzie, you can go to at Lizzie Humber. That's L-I-Z-Y-H-U-M-B-E-R. We also have an Instagram handle at Matresson's Festival where you can follow for more updates and new episodes as they are released.

And more Matresen's festivals to come. That's it from us. Okay, talk to you soon.